0:02

There are two things in the market

0:04

that are challenging. First, it's just the

0:06

affordability of houses. And the second one

0:08

is that in Europe we have now

0:10

the Green Deal, where

0:12

by 2030 we want to reduce

0:15

carbon emissions. So if we

0:17

want to get to the targets that the EU has

0:19

asked from its member states, we need

0:21

to renovate 220 million homes. That's

0:25

Gurd van Kieckhoven from OPR. Gurd

0:28

is here to chat about a topic we've never

0:30

explored before on fintech files. mortgages.

0:33

This season we're honing in on social

0:35

impact of fintech. And I want

0:37

to know what you're thinking. What do

0:39

mortgages have to do with social impact? It

0:42

turns out a lot. This

0:44

episode, good breaks down why housing

0:46

affordability is crucial for building wealth. We

0:49

also dive into the impact of the EU Green

0:51

Deal on housing. Europe is

0:53

pushing to reduce carbon emissions across

0:55

residential properties. This means retrofitting

0:58

older homes to be more sustainable. You

1:00

often can't even get approved for a mortgage if

1:03

you don't agree to renovate older properties. This

1:05

makes the housing affordability even more of a

1:08

challenge, especially for first time home

1:10

buyers. This is Bianca's

1:12

conversation with Gurd. Enjoy.

1:20

Welcome to fintech files. I'm so

1:22

excited to have you here in

1:24

this episode talking to us about

1:26

something that most of us usually couldn't

1:28

and have some sort of lots

1:30

of emotions around when it comes

1:32

to mortgages. So why did

1:35

you become passionate about the field? I

1:37

think like as a first homeowner, I remember having

1:39

all sorts of emotions is quite a moment that

1:41

most of us can't forget, right? You're

1:43

halfway through trying to understand what the heck

1:45

all the terms are and making sure you

1:47

can afford it. I love solving

1:50

problems and I love building things. And

1:52

at a certain point in time, I got all the domain

1:54

knowledge about it. And so for me, if

1:56

you look at the process of

1:58

applying for a home loan or a mortgage,

2:01

inherently it is not that complex. But

2:05

because it is such a big decision, it creates

2:07

a lot of anxiety. It's very funny.

2:09

My co-founder is currently going through a mortgage process.

2:12

He's I think in Europe, top 10 experts when

2:14

it comes to lending. He's one of the best.

2:17

I cannot tell you the anxiety level that

2:19

he has. We have like therapy sessions now

2:22

in the evening. We are talking

2:24

through his mortgage case, like how can he make it

2:26

work? Should he sell his

2:28

existing property? So even that person

2:30

gets anxious from the process. I think because

2:32

it is a big step, because

2:35

a second problem as well is that

2:37

loan advisors, it's a scarce resource. So

2:39

the people advising you in the bank

2:42

are not always really big experts. And

2:45

you know, there's a lot of like a lot

2:47

of red tape through regulations, rightfully so that is

2:49

there, which just created a lot of complexity in

2:51

the process. So you have taken

2:53

a huge decision. You don't get all the clear

2:55

information you need, and you need to do things

2:57

you don't understand why you need to do them.

2:59

And actually, nobody really understands why we're doing them.

3:02

I think those three really create

3:04

a clunky process today. So

3:06

if you can help me explain, because it sounds

3:08

like you're in your co-founder, not only do therapy

3:10

in your own case, but you set out a

3:12

company, OPPER, to do this. So

3:14

tell our FinTech file listeners out

3:16

there, what is it in

3:18

a really simple way? So

3:20

at OPPER, we build a technology

3:22

that basically helps banks to sell

3:24

mortgages to their clients. And

3:27

it's most simple way. That's how I can

3:29

explain it. So basically, we provide

3:32

them with all the software for

3:34

the borrower to basically go to

3:36

their website, do an affordability assessment,

3:38

all the way to signing actually

3:40

the contract. We develop

3:42

software for the loan advisor to help

3:44

him giving better advice to the clients,

3:47

and also to let's say head office to take

3:50

better credit decisions. When

3:52

you think about this challenge and the

3:54

sudden challenges that the European market is

3:56

facing, the housing market is one that

3:59

screams pretty loudly. And

4:01

as first-time homebuyers, beyond the

4:03

general anxiety that we just

4:05

discussed that even your expert

4:07

co-founder has, what are some

4:09

of the biggest things of impacting the

4:11

accessibility of homeownership today? I

4:14

think today there are two things

4:16

in the market that are challenging. First

4:19

is, as interest rates have increased, or

4:21

at least now we're getting into a

4:23

more volatile interest rate environment, it's

4:26

just the affordability of houses. So

4:29

today first-time homebuyers have

4:32

a really, really hard time of

4:34

acquiring property and getting it financed.

4:38

And one of the predictions that we had

4:40

for this year was that we would see

4:42

much more governmental plans coming up, but

4:45

that hasn't really materialized. So today,

4:47

if you're like lower

4:50

middle class, I

4:52

feel homeownership can be a very meaningful way of

4:54

building wealth, but it's just really, really hard if

4:56

you can't do the down payment. So that's

4:59

a huge challenge, which I see in Europe, and

5:02

which will probably need like governments, public sector, as

5:04

well as private sector to find

5:06

solutions for that. And banks

5:08

are getting creative around more, say

5:11

flexible mortgage products, but I mean,

5:13

it remains hard also given the

5:16

regulations that came after the financial

5:18

crisis. I think that is one. And

5:21

a second one is, I think, a very big

5:23

paradox today, and it's a

5:25

very tricky discussion as well, is

5:27

that in Europe, we have now the

5:29

Green Deal, where by 2030,

5:32

we want to reduce carbon emissions, et cetera.

5:34

So we want to become much more energy

5:36

efficient, much more self-sustaining to fight global warming,

5:39

which is, I think, an amazing cause. The

5:42

only thing is that it has also a really big

5:44

impact on housing markets. So if we

5:46

want to get to the targets that Europe has asked, or

5:48

the EU has asked from its member states, we

5:51

need to renovate 220 million homes. That's

5:55

a huge assignment. And so again,

5:58

there, that means that... governments will say,

6:00

and that's actually happening in a few

6:02

European countries, hey Bianca,

6:04

you want to buy a new property in

6:06

France? Oh, it's an old apartment. Yeah,

6:09

we're only going to give you a mortgage if you renovate it.

6:12

But the renovation cost is going to

6:14

be incredibly high, so your affordability will

6:16

go down. So we're

6:18

having already today, young

6:20

families have difficulties acquiring that

6:23

first property. And in order

6:25

to meet, this is going to sound a bit

6:27

doomsday, in order to meet the

6:29

Green Deal we'll also impose a lot of

6:31

requirements which will make properties even less affordable.

6:37

But how bad does housing affordability in Europe

6:39

really? According to the

6:41

UN, over a third of lower-income households

6:44

experience housing stress. The

6:46

severity varies from country to country, but

6:48

many households pay almost half of their

6:50

income on housing. A

6:52

common piece of financial advice has historically been to

6:55

not spend more than a third of your total

6:57

income on housing. It leaves little room for other

6:59

living expenses like food and transportation. You

7:02

also don't have much left to save

7:04

for unexpected expenses or retirement. To

7:07

try to cool housing costs, interest rates went

7:09

up significantly across Europe since the pandemic. Although

7:13

this helps bringing housing prices down, the overall costs

7:15

for buyers still go up. With

7:21

these rising interest rates, affordability issues are not

7:24

going to change. What

7:26

can technology do? Can technology really be

7:28

that pixie dusk that magic can happen?

7:32

What I would say is in our control today

7:34

is also on

7:37

the fields helping loan

7:39

advisors and borrowers

7:41

to have clarity of what is feasible and

7:43

what is not feasible. And

7:45

what I, for example, see today, and this is

7:47

really something in Europe which is a real issue,

7:50

is that I'm a young family, I

7:53

go to my bank, to my home bank, I say, hey,

7:56

we would love to acquire this apartment. And

7:59

on the other side, And there is like a

8:01

loan advisor that, or let's say a bank

8:03

advisor that also does a lot of other

8:06

products like investment products, payments, whatever. And

8:09

they just say, yeah, I don't think it will be

8:11

feasible, save a little bit more for the future, blah,

8:13

blah, blah. And the

8:15

borrower just goes back or the family just goes

8:17

back and they're just going to rent for another

8:19

six months. Well, actually, if you think

8:21

about it, if I look at what the bank

8:23

could offer, we could have offered them a mortgage,

8:25

we could have offered them something, we could have

8:27

helped them. And I think

8:30

there with our technology, we invested a lot of

8:32

money in helping borrowers

8:35

easily calculate different affordability scenarios themselves.

8:37

But also, and that's actually where

8:39

the most of our R&D went

8:42

into, is helping loan

8:44

advisors have better advisory conversations.

8:47

So to really help them think through like,

8:49

look, this is the current income, this is

8:51

our financial situation, these are the assets we

8:53

have, this is the assets we will have,

8:55

what can we advise you to do so? What

9:01

Gert's describing here is often called a

9:03

stress test. The stress test

9:05

is a way for banks to assess if

9:07

someone will pay their mortgage in different scenarios.

9:10

So for example, what if interest rates rise?

9:13

What if living costs goes up? What

9:16

if you lose your job? The purpose

9:18

is to ensure that banks will still

9:20

receive their payments and that the borrower

9:22

won't take on unnecessary debt. But

9:25

when it comes to planning for the

9:27

future, they use climate targets at another

9:29

layer. What if I get newer

9:31

windows? What about if I

9:33

improve the insulation? These

9:36

are the kinds of questions that home buyers

9:38

can ask that will help access a long-term

9:40

affordability of housing. We

9:46

can also think about, hey, you know, you can

9:48

afford a property of the 250,000 euros, but

9:52

if you want to acquire this property, we

9:54

might also buy investing in heat pumps or

9:57

in solar panels. You could also drive

10:00

your energy costs down, so we could

10:02

also fund that. And

10:04

then long term, you would

10:06

also pay less in energy costs, etc.

10:08

So that planning we all

10:10

provide today to banks with our technology to

10:12

help them provide a much

10:15

better service to their clients. And

10:17

that's just a great example. You kind of

10:19

just walked us through how the loan advisor

10:21

can really use this, right? Because the bank

10:23

effectively has an asset that

10:25

they want to sell. They want to sell

10:28

cash, right? What do you

10:30

think is the awareness of the

10:32

market today? When you're having these

10:34

conversations with the banks and with

10:36

the clients, obviously I think

10:38

society as a whole is outraged about affordability.

10:40

So I think you can read that on

10:42

the process or with news. But

10:45

how is the business world realizing the

10:47

opportunity they have in their books? Yeah, there's

10:49

of course also a third department which

10:51

often plays a role. And that is

10:53

of course risk, which especially after the

10:55

financial crisis sometimes really, really pushes the

10:57

brakes. We have a

11:00

strong presence in the dark region.

11:02

So Germany, Austria, Switzerland. And

11:04

what you there have, and I really, I mean, just

11:07

for me as clients, I really love to work with.

11:10

There are a lot of regional banks. And

11:12

so banks that operate in a certain province

11:15

and often do some real

11:17

estate, fund the local resumes. With

11:19

them, you can really have that conversation. Because

11:22

they are like, look, you live in a city

11:24

we service, we help everybody

11:27

in the city. And

11:30

that means we don't have perfectly standardized mortgages.

11:32

That means sometimes we kind of

11:34

tailor certain mortgage products to somebody,

11:37

but we want to help every

11:39

family within risk in the risk

11:41

category. The only thing is the

11:43

issue that this so they're very receptive to

11:45

the storyline that I just told you, because

11:47

if you talk to C level into board

11:49

level, they're like, yeah, that's our duty. That's

11:52

what we do. We make sure we realize dreams.

11:55

The only thing is they

11:57

still on the field have to find the

11:59

people that. that can give that advice,

12:01

that can do that manufacturing, that

12:04

can do that tailoring of lending

12:06

products. And there, especially with a

12:08

lot of renovation guidelines today, energy

12:11

efficient subsidies, et cetera, it

12:13

just becomes incredibly hard. And there, I think

12:15

with technology, we can play a huge role.

12:19

But housing and also residential

12:21

housing has today a huge

12:23

impact on the gas

12:25

emission we today have within Europe. We

12:29

talk about residential housing. So

12:31

that's a bit how it drills back to our

12:33

industry, because what a lot of governments have been

12:35

doing is been imposing

12:37

the banks to not

12:39

lend money, to

12:41

just acquire an energy-unefficient

12:44

house, like an old castle, without

12:47

having the duty to renovate. And

12:50

this is maybe also interesting for a lot of

12:52

people, because I sometimes hear that that's something that

12:54

doesn't really exist, for example, in the US market.

12:56

But in Europe today, I mean, I sit now

12:59

in Belgium, if I want to buy an old

13:01

castle that basically runs on coal, if

13:04

I go to my bank, they would not finance

13:06

it, unless I do

13:09

a commitment to put an energy-efficient

13:12

heating installation. So

13:17

let's break down a bit what this castle example

13:20

would actually look like. Imagine

13:22

an old castle built centuries ago.

13:25

It's got thick stone walls, drafty windows,

13:27

and an ancient heating system running on

13:30

coal. Sounds charming, right? Well,

13:33

it's basically an emissions nightmare, not

13:35

to mention super expensive to maintain. But

13:38

by retrofitting homes with modern upgrades

13:41

like heat pumps, battery insulation, and

13:43

energy-efficient windows, we can drastically cut

13:45

the carbon footprint. Heat

13:47

pumps can reduce carbon emissions by at

13:49

least 20%, compared with the gas boiler.

13:53

This makes homes greener and more affordable than

13:55

the long run. But there

13:57

is still the issue of immediate affordability. The

14:04

only thing is if you add the concept

14:06

of renovations and

14:08

like re-rebuilding certain houses,

14:11

you add costs to the housing price. So

14:14

a priori, my analysis

14:16

is that interest rates

14:18

rise, affordability becomes more

14:20

tricky. If house

14:22

prices stabilize and become more expensive because

14:25

of renovation duties, affordability goes through the

14:27

roof. So what do we

14:29

need to change to meet these like

14:31

ambitions and these, this just

14:34

divergence of we kind of want to go

14:36

here, we understand this is where we need

14:38

to go. If there is a

14:40

new set of homeowners that

14:42

could lead this green transition,

14:44

here they are. But if

14:46

they can't even afford to be part of

14:48

it, so it needs to happen. First

14:51

and for all, I think we need to safeguard first

14:53

time home buyers in a sense. I don't think we,

14:56

I think we need to make first time home

14:58

buying extremely accessible

15:01

to European families. And

15:04

there again, it's going to be

15:06

a combination of private and public initiatives. A

15:09

second pillar where I think we can work

15:11

on, but again, I'm not a

15:13

policymaker, is people who

15:15

have paid down quite a lot of

15:17

home equity, who might sit

15:20

in houses that aren't

15:22

so energy efficient, stimulate

15:24

them and also inform them to be able

15:26

to do reuptakes on their mortgage in

15:29

order to do certain energy efficient

15:31

works. And it's tricky because you

15:34

need to make sure they do the appropriate kind

15:36

of works. You need to make sure that you're

15:38

not just subsidizing a construction industry. But

15:40

I feel like certain investments could

15:43

be do like installing a heat pump

15:45

and basically being able to use your

15:47

existing mortgage to do that. Because

15:49

that way you're basically renovating, you're

15:52

basically asking people to make a

15:54

positive change to housing to people

15:57

who are financially already further in their journey. If

16:00

we work on that angle, we are at

16:02

the same time renovating the properties we need

16:04

to renovate. And we're safeguarding first and second

16:06

time home buyers. So they

16:09

can take that step in wealth, build

16:11

up wealth, and then pay back to

16:13

the community. Probably advocates of

16:15

the Green Deal will say that goes

16:17

way too slow, but that's also why

16:19

I'm on technology and not on the

16:21

policy-making side. What are some

16:23

of the top cool things you've been seeing being

16:26

implemented in ways towards

16:28

this contribution or home

16:30

contribution towards whether it's carbon emissions

16:33

or just reduction of our footprint

16:35

in this planet? We

16:37

basically look at the property as a living object

16:39

throughout time. And with that I mean, I buy

16:42

a property today, I want to

16:44

live there for 20 years with my family, so I'm

16:46

going to continuously improve its

16:48

energy efficiency with, let's say, doing

16:50

improvements here and there. But

16:53

okay, that's one part, but then tying

16:55

the financial product to it. Meaning

16:58

that you basically say, hey,

17:00

you know, today we spent $500 on

17:02

energy expense, we're

17:06

going to bring it back to $300 because of

17:08

all energy efficient measures we take. And

17:10

then the financing is going to basically

17:12

cover for that for a certain while.

17:15

So you get like active cash flow

17:17

planning on a property. And

17:19

because you're making these investments, you're

17:21

not only driving your monthly expenses,

17:23

your monthly family expenses down, but

17:25

we also make a forecast on

17:28

what the property value would be. So we

17:30

basically say, hey, by doing these measures, the

17:32

property that was initially worth $200 is now

17:34

going to be worth $300. So

17:37

you're basically looking at the property

17:39

as a living asset. What's

17:42

really when you look ahead beyond these

17:44

critical developments in like mortgage and the

17:47

housing sector and the awareness, we have

17:49

to have to not overstimulate

17:51

just the construction industry.

17:53

But doesn't there

17:56

have to be this change

17:58

in awareness and perspective? Doesn't

18:01

that also tie it back to financial

18:04

awareness, which sometimes I feel

18:07

is missing. You have this life path, but

18:10

sometimes I think basic financial

18:12

education on why owning a

18:14

property and paying down, for

18:16

example, a mortgage or investing

18:19

certain amounts of your funds

18:21

in long-term funds makes sense,

18:23

the definition of compounding of

18:25

interests. And it's a feeling

18:27

that some things, you know, you do it because other

18:29

people are doing it and you need to do it,

18:31

but sometimes, you know, it still strikes

18:33

me that I need to, very intelligent people

18:36

have to explain the power of compounding, which

18:39

I think is a basic notion of creating

18:41

wealth for you and your next generation. Compound

18:48

investing comes up a lot on this podcast,

18:51

and it is a crucial thing to understand, especially

18:53

for younger generations who want to invest

18:56

in their retirement. The

18:58

concept is simple. When you

19:00

invest money, you earn returns. Those

19:02

returns get added to your original investment.

19:05

So the next time you earn returns, you're

19:07

not just earning on what you originally put in,

19:10

but also on the returns of what you already

19:12

made. The earlier you

19:14

start investing, the more compounding opportunity

19:16

that you have. And

19:18

it takes time. This is

19:20

just one of the many ways people can

19:22

build financial security over time. Safety

19:25

and security are wrapped up emotionally and financially

19:27

with the idea of owning a home for

19:29

many people. Most

19:34

people understand the safety that comes in having a

19:36

home, the emotional stability

19:39

and security and this notion

19:41

of wealth. And a

19:43

lot of people without much education aim

19:45

and strive for that. And

19:47

buy today mortgage products across the

19:49

world. So how does that

19:51

change? And what

19:53

do you look ahead and hope for? As

19:56

an entrepreneur, you have to be covered and hope

19:58

to have been in this industry. for these many

20:00

years? I

20:31

know that five years ago when we started, there

20:35

were a lot of back in the days venture capitalists looking

20:40

at our company and saying, the

20:43

next generation is they don't want to own anymore.

20:47

Nobody wants to own properties, they don't want to own cars,

20:51

they just want to rent, they want to lease. And

20:54

to be honest, five years later, a

20:57

meaningful middle class wants to have mortgages. It's

21:00

a need we have and I don't think that

21:02

will die down so easily. This

21:12

was a really unique episode of Fintech Files.

21:15

So much to unpack when it comes to mortgages.

21:18

Bianca, what's your personal experience with buying

21:20

your first home? I

21:22

think I was 24 and I was

21:24

working at a bank and

21:27

at RBC at the time, working

21:30

in commercial REITs,

21:33

doing senior debt financing, so

21:36

super technical things and had a lovely

21:38

RBC, you know, mortgage

21:40

rate as an employee. So it felt like

21:42

the right thing to do to follow the

21:44

route of the traditional time. I was like

21:47

having this like banking job, I thought I

21:49

was going to buy this place. But I

21:51

remember just not understanding and realizing

21:54

even working at the bank how credit scoring already worked.

21:56

I was just, you know, I knew what the formula

21:58

is and the rate was. that they were looking for.

22:02

But that was a unique vantage point. So I think

22:04

my anxiety was a little less than, you know, normal

22:06

first home buyer, because I had my mentors at

22:08

RBC that were just saying, hey, we can help you

22:11

figure this out. But when

22:13

I think of just now, even having

22:15

moved, like I lived in

22:17

Denmark and even buying property in another

22:19

country, I find it a really different

22:21

and scary, sort of

22:24

anxious experience, because the rules are

22:26

different. And even

22:28

understanding how, you know, my affordability

22:30

rates are going to be calculated,

22:33

even the way mortgages work in Brazil,

22:35

compared to Canada, compared to Denmark, is

22:37

completely different. And even how

22:39

the market, in terms of transparency. So I

22:41

think it's one that causes

22:43

you anxiety, you know, wherever you go. And

22:46

maybe some people in real estate are better than me on

22:48

this one. I think from

22:50

your starting position, it really makes sense. Because

22:52

for me, honestly, I've always been a bit

22:54

too afraid because of moving countries so often.

22:56

I just don't see the need. And I'm

22:58

really afraid of the administrative overhead. For instance,

23:01

if I would now buy a house back

23:03

in my home country, Germany, where I for

23:05

sure will live in maybe 10, maybe 20,

23:08

maybe 30 years from here again, I

23:10

don't want to manage it right now from the Middle

23:12

East. That's super fair. I've thought about that long hard.

23:14

And I think a lot of digital nomads or expats

23:16

can relate to that. Like I know that my next

23:19

dream thing is to maybe buy a

23:21

place in Lemmy Beach, which is where I'm from in Rio

23:23

de Janeiro. But living the

23:25

crazy airport life there, we also talk

23:27

about here on the podcast, this renting

23:30

and buying debate. And you

23:32

see this in the numbers, right? You see in the

23:34

numbers not only based on, we are in a fortunate

23:36

place to be able to choose. Some

23:38

people in our generation are not. And

23:40

some of these calculations are something that they,

23:42

one, don't understand. And two, are

23:45

not even aware how they can make it any different.

23:47

When we look at North America as

23:49

an example, the credit spread in debt

23:52

in younger generations is terrifying. So it's

23:54

not a renting versus buying debate is

23:56

a, can I even afford rent debate?

23:59

So. How do you see that

24:01

and how is that in the Middle East, Anand

24:03

Kal? What do you see

24:05

as opportunity? Because

24:08

I've also seen a really incredible cool market of fintech

24:10

opportunities with

24:12

the renting market. I

24:15

think this can be like your next startup, Bianca, because

24:18

especially in the Middle East, you don't pay on a

24:20

monthly basis, you pay on an annual basis. So

24:24

basically the month or the day you move in, it's

24:27

usually a one-time payment, otherwise it's going to get

24:29

more expensive, which is totally different

24:31

to Germany. And I can imagine

24:33

especially for starters in

24:35

the job, when you just start your first job

24:37

or when you just move jobs, it's super expensive.

24:41

And we see things like the potential impact of

24:43

the EU Green Deal. But

24:45

when I looked at that and listening

24:47

to him share, it just

24:50

kept diving this gap even bigger

24:52

and bigger between what people can't

24:54

afford and what we hypothetically would

24:56

like to have as a world.

24:58

I fully agree. And

25:01

I think here the gap between what we want

25:03

and what is reality is quite big. So just

25:06

for my example, I'm the daughter of

25:08

a civil engineer, so of course our

25:10

walls at home, back at my parents

25:12

there, very well isolated. But

25:15

they're also good to know for your first property. He's

25:18

now a physics and math teacher. But anyways,

25:21

I think for me as a child of a

25:23

civil engineer, I know how walls

25:25

should look like and also what good windows

25:27

are because my dad paid a certain emphasis

25:30

on it. But I also

25:32

know a thousand ways of how houses can also

25:34

be built. So for instance, when you have not

25:37

so well isolated walls because you can save

25:39

space and so on, it's a completely different

25:41

thing. And I can fully imagine when thinking

25:43

about the EU Green Deal,

25:46

that it's also neat to drive it

25:48

from a regulatory perspective more, to really

25:50

have the incentives for everyone to take

25:52

care that this is not

25:54

only when you're a civil engineer's child, but

25:57

also for the general population. Yeah,

25:59

and how do you drive that? Right? Like how do

26:01

you, is it at the time of purchase and for

26:03

what premium are you willing to be green?

26:06

So I think when we look at how that's

26:08

going to impact their decision-making Like I think they're

26:10

gonna have to do a lot more than green

26:13

bonds to truly see and harness the impact of

26:15

all this legislation This

26:21

has been FinTech Files, a podcast from

26:23

BCG Platinium. This season we're digging deep

26:25

into the groundbreaking ideas that are reshaping

26:27

the future of FinTech and we want

26:29

to hear from you, our

26:31

listeners. What topics do you want to cover

26:34

and who are your dream guests? Feel

26:37

free to reach out at any

26:39

time at FinTech-Podcast at bcgplatinium.com We

26:42

can't wait to hear from you. Thank you

26:44

so much for tuning in. Bye!