0:00

Open banking means different

0:02

things to different people. For

0:04

some people, it's a series

0:06

of regulations. And to some

0:08

people, it's a set of

0:10

technologies. And then to some

0:13

people, it's something of a

0:15

global movement. An idea that

0:17

when a customer has data,

0:19

that data belongs to them. And

0:21

they should decide how it's shared,

0:24

by whom, for what purpose, and

0:26

for how long. Open banking is

0:28

many things. A new set of

0:30

tools, a slew of regulations and

0:33

a movement that starts with financial

0:35

services and takes us way beyond

0:38

that into an age where data

0:40

is both open and protected. In

0:42

today's episode, we dive into the

0:45

world of open banking with one

0:47

of its strongest advocates. A.L. Stephen,

0:49

Mr. Open Banking himself. And no,

0:52

that is not a nickname we

0:54

made up. Mr. Open Banking is

0:56

a podcast that gathers more

0:58

than 100,000 listeners worldwide, and

1:00

is AL's platform to educate

1:03

the public and discuss the

1:05

latest innovations in the space.

1:07

AL has more than 25

1:09

years of experience in information

1:11

and banking technologies. Today, he

1:13

is a general manager for

1:15

ozone API. A tech pioneer

1:17

who empowers global institutions to

1:19

adopt open finance and Thratf.

1:21

It is this wealth of

1:23

knowledge and expertise that AL

1:25

brings to FinTech Files. What

1:27

a privilege. So could open

1:30

banking revolutionize the way we

1:32

use financial services? What is

1:34

in it for consumers, banks,

1:36

and even governments? What are

1:39

the risks? And crucially, does

1:41

it hope potential for better

1:43

financial inclusion? AWOL answers all

1:45

these questions in our conversation

1:48

today. So here is this

1:50

conversation with Nora. AL's

1:56

career took root in the early

1:58

days of the internet. He was

2:00

part of a generation that

2:02

started companies in basements. How

2:04

cool is that? With his

2:07

first firm, Everywhere Inc., he

2:09

taught himself how to use

2:11

emerging computer operating systems, like

2:13

UNIX, Pearl, HDML, and he

2:15

planted himself in a new

2:17

ecosystem, the world of information

2:19

technology. And yes, this niche

2:22

would take AL all the

2:24

way to Mr. Open Banking.

2:26

So can you tell us

2:28

a little bit about your

2:30

background and how you became

2:32

Mr. Open Banking? Sure. Happy

2:34

to, Nora. I am a

2:36

career IT professional, almost to

2:39

the point of being a

2:41

cliche. Back in the 90s,

2:43

I had my own internet

2:45

shop. Eventually, I learned about

2:47

databases and how to make

2:49

websites and databases work together

2:51

to create what would eventually

2:54

be called web applications. and

2:56

eventually found a home at

2:58

CIBC, a major Canadian bank,

3:00

as part of their architecture

3:02

team. I came in as

3:04

the sort of internet and

3:06

web services whiz kid at

3:08

my firm. We had started

3:11

playing with early versions of

3:13

XML. So I came into

3:15

CIBC to clean up how

3:17

they did integration and APIs.

3:19

By the time I left...

3:21

I held a pretty senior

3:23

role in the architecture team.

3:26

I was head of strategic

3:28

platforms. And because we had

3:30

taken a very novel approach

3:32

to building APIs, creating our

3:34

own in-house platform, I found

3:36

myself standing on a lot

3:38

of stages talking about the

3:41

work we had done. People

3:43

wanted to hear how exactly

3:45

we had tackled the integration

3:47

challenge of the modern day.

3:49

In those travels... at an

3:51

event in Oslo. I met

3:53

a gentleman named Gunner Berger.

3:55

He was the head of

3:58

open banking at Nordia, a

4:00

bank out of the Nordics,

4:02

and his title. was what

4:04

intrigued me the most. His

4:06

title was head of open

4:08

banking. I thought to myself,

4:10

what on earth is that?

4:13

Open banking. So I took

4:15

Gunner out for drinks and

4:17

asked him. And he said,

4:19

well, don't you know? There

4:21

was a regulation passed in

4:23

Europe that required banks to

4:25

publish standardized APIs for sharing

4:28

data. After meeting Gunner, I

4:30

went back to my hotel

4:32

room and started watching. YouTube

4:34

clips of European legislators arguing

4:36

with each other about people

4:38

having rights to their data

4:40

and leveling the playing field

4:42

and all these other very

4:45

philosophical ideas. And it was

4:47

a little like being struck

4:49

by a bolt of lightning.

4:51

I kind of fell in

4:53

love. I couldn't sleep. It

4:55

was keeping me up at

4:57

night. I'd been working an

5:00

integration for my whole career.

5:02

And I knew what it

5:04

meant to... make an entire

5:06

ecosystem standardized, and it was

5:08

even more bewildering that a

5:10

regulation was what was driving

5:12

that to happen. I sort

5:14

of became obsessed with the

5:17

whole idea. When he left

5:19

his role as the IBC,

5:21

A.L. had one objective. Funny

5:23

the development of his brand

5:25

and launching the first three

5:27

episodes of Mr. Open Banking.

5:29

But going all in an

5:32

adventure, It's not without risk.

5:34

So when the COVID-19 pandemic

5:36

hit, he had to improvise.

5:38

That's how AL found his

5:40

next role at Axway, an

5:42

API management firm that believed

5:44

in the idea of open

5:47

banking and wanted to sponsor

5:49

his platform. AL became their

5:51

head of open banking following

5:53

the footsteps of top leaders

5:55

who had inspired him. Over

5:57

the next five years he

5:59

went on to build a

6:01

network of innovators experts influencers

6:04

for all advanced open banking

6:06

and making it a reality.

6:08

But before we dive into

6:10

what this new reality looks

6:12

like, AL wants to be

6:14

transparent about what open banking

6:16

is. You can't talk about

6:19

open banking without talking about

6:21

money, moving your money around

6:23

and moving the data that's

6:25

associated with your money, like

6:27

your transactions. your history, your

6:29

credit records, the products that

6:31

you might have, that can

6:33

be really tricky. It often

6:36

involves a lot of paper

6:38

and phone calls and heaven

6:40

forbid visits to branches. That

6:42

is a very constraining thing.

6:44

Someone like my grandma would

6:46

just assume that that's how

6:48

it is. That's how it's

6:51

always been and that's always

6:53

going to be. But the

6:55

fact is... that doesn't have

6:57

to be the case. We

6:59

live in a world where

7:01

moving data around across the

7:03

internet has become part of

7:06

our daily lives. When you

7:08

order a taxi, when you

7:10

need to get some food

7:12

delivered, it's a matter of

7:14

a few swipes on your

7:16

phone. And the apps that

7:18

make that happen often integrate

7:20

a whole bunch of different

7:23

capabilities, menu capabilities, maps, maps.

7:25

deliveries, payments, all of those

7:27

are sort of stitched together.

7:29

So what if moving money

7:31

from one bank to another

7:33

was as easy as swiping

7:35

your finger across your phone?

7:38

Or what if switching accounts

7:40

between banks was just as

7:42

easy? What if you could

7:44

get approved for a line

7:46

of credit or get financed

7:48

for a large purchase you

7:50

wanted to make all with

7:53

a few taps on your

7:55

phone? And to do so...

7:57

not with a single provider,

7:59

but... in a way that

8:01

lets you look at all

8:03

the different options that were

8:05

available across the providers and

8:07

pick the best one for

8:10

you. That's how I would

8:12

explain what open banking does.

8:14

So would you say that

8:16

this convenience, the new convenience

8:18

of banking and maybe also

8:20

transparency around it, that is

8:22

like the core mission of

8:25

open banking or? So in

8:27

terms of what's it for,

8:29

what's it trying to achieve?

8:31

I could broadly break it

8:33

down into three buckets. The

8:35

first one is competition. It

8:37

came out of the 2008

8:39

financial crisis, which was more

8:42

than just a financial crisis.

8:44

It was a crisis of

8:46

trust. A lot of people

8:48

all over the world felt

8:50

that they had essentially been

8:52

fooled by financial services, by

8:54

the banks, all over the

8:57

world, that they could no

8:59

longer trust them. And open

9:01

banking came out of an

9:03

idea that to repair that

9:05

trust, there had to be

9:07

a distribution of financial services.

9:09

There had to be a

9:12

wider playing field that allowed

9:14

more players to come in

9:16

and more financial services to

9:18

be offered. That competition would

9:20

increase value and reduce a

9:22

kind of corruption, the kind

9:24

that had caused. the irresponsibility

9:26

that led to 2008. So

9:29

the second bucket is this

9:31

idea of doing financial services

9:33

in a completely new way,

9:35

innovation. When it comes to

9:37

banking, innovation isn't just about

9:39

letting more people participate. It's

9:41

not just widening the range

9:44

of financial companies. It's also

9:46

about opening the field to

9:48

new pathways, letting in entirely

9:50

new kinds of financial products.

9:54

The third, and often not

9:57

given enough attention, is this...

9:59

idea of transparency, that in

10:01

order for competition and innovation

10:04

to thrive, you needed to

10:06

be able to see through

10:08

the fine print that often

10:11

accompanied financial services to compare

10:13

products fairly, to see how

10:15

much a line of credit

10:18

cost in one place versus

10:20

another, what were the terms

10:22

and conditions that went with

10:25

it, what were the fees

10:27

associated. So those are the

10:30

three big goals. competition, innovation

10:32

and transparency. So transparency is

10:34

a best word that I

10:36

want to hook on to

10:39

because when people hear data

10:41

sharing, data sharing between organizations,

10:43

they often feel like a

10:46

bit alert because they obviously

10:48

don't want it to just

10:50

be shared without them being

10:52

in control. So how does

10:55

that work within the open

10:57

banking environment? Do consumers? still

10:59

have control over their data?

11:02

Yeah, you've hit upon a

11:04

really important point, Nora. There's

11:06

a bit of a misconception

11:08

about open banking, that it's

11:11

actually unsafe, that if I

11:13

combine the word open and

11:15

the word banking, this conjures

11:18

an image in people's mind

11:20

that my data is sort

11:22

of out there and exposed

11:24

and anyone can just pick

11:27

it up. People who don't

11:29

know anything about it. automatically

11:31

react negatively. They don't like

11:34

seeing those two words together.

11:36

Open means an open door.

11:38

In reality, the open means

11:41

more like open source. It

11:43

refers to the notion of

11:45

common standards. The point Avel

11:47

is making here is substantial.

11:50

Contrary to what you might

11:52

expect, security is not optimized

11:54

in many parts of the

11:57

banking sector. financial institutions often

11:59

operate with their own security

12:01

systems. which can be out

12:03

of date. It sometimes uses

12:06

either very archaic practices, like

12:08

batch files and integration systems

12:10

that are built bespoke with

12:13

questionable security mechanisms, or sometimes

12:15

they use a mechanism called

12:17

screen scraping, which requires you

12:19

to actually share your bank

12:22

credentials, your card number and

12:24

password, with an intermediary. who

12:26

is essentially tricking the bank

12:29

on the other side into

12:31

thinking it's you as a

12:33

customer logging in and then

12:35

proceeds to scrape all the

12:38

data off of the actual

12:40

HDML screens so highly insecure.

12:42

And the fact is, these

12:45

practices are still in place

12:47

today. Open banking by contrast

12:49

by leveraging this base of

12:51

common standards introduces some of

12:54

the most stringent... powerful security

12:56

controls available today, and they're

12:58

continuously improving. And in general,

13:01

it is one of the

13:03

most secure mechanisms of providing

13:05

the utility of data sharing

13:07

in the world across all

13:10

industries. So rather than being

13:12

less safe, open banking is

13:14

actually much, much more safe

13:17

than data sharing practices in

13:19

place today. AL

13:23

touches on another important aspect

13:25

of open banking here. It

13:28

is a global phenomenon. As

13:30

a movement, open banking came

13:32

into its own in 2018,

13:34

when Europe adopted PSD2, a

13:36

regulation that asked banks to

13:38

open their APIs to specific

13:40

third parties. The idea behind

13:42

this legislation was to better

13:44

integrate payments into the European

13:46

market, and importantly to provide

13:49

a level playing field for

13:51

service providers. And that's really

13:53

interesting, because it means that

13:55

from the get-go, open banking

13:57

has been geared towards financial

13:59

inclusion. And that explains why

14:01

over the last seven years,

14:03

open banking has vastly expanded

14:05

its reach. It has traveled

14:07

quickly to the UK, Australia,

14:09

Brazil, and other regions of

14:12

the American continent. Now it's

14:14

even taking hold in parts

14:16

of Africa and in the

14:18

Middle East. To say nothing

14:20

as Southeast Asia that has

14:22

actually been working with advanced

14:24

API technology for a long

14:26

time. All of these regions

14:28

have very needs and financial

14:30

products. And in some cases,

14:32

they have used open banking

14:35

to better serve their communities.

14:37

It's interesting, open banking is

14:39

done for different purposes in

14:41

different places. So in certain

14:43

places, it is an explicit

14:45

goal of open banking to

14:47

support the underbanked or unbanked.

14:49

A great case study here

14:51

is Brazil, who managed to

14:53

go from essentially a plan.

14:56

to one of the most

14:58

mature open banking ecosystems in

15:00

the world in the space

15:02

of about a year. And

15:04

as part of their commitment,

15:06

explicitly their goal was to

15:08

support underbanked and unbanked individuals.

15:10

You'll find this to be

15:12

very common in places where

15:14

you do have a large

15:16

unbanked population. The way it

15:19

solves it is by essentially

15:21

lowering the cost of introducing

15:23

new financial services providers. and

15:25

lowering the cost of being

15:27

able to send money to

15:29

people and to allow them

15:31

to send money to each

15:33

other. So, for example, in

15:35

Brazil, shortly after launching their

15:37

open banking regime, they introduced

15:40

public wallets. In Brazil, I

15:42

believe it's two of the

15:44

major banks are partially state-owned.

15:46

What they essentially did was

15:48

issued wallets to... everybody, the

15:50

entire population, who wanted to

15:52

just come into a branch

15:54

and say, here's my phone,

15:56

I want you to issue

15:58

me, a digital wallet. provided

16:00

them a way to be

16:03

able to participate in the

16:05

economy by sending money to

16:07

each other, applying for credit

16:09

through these digital wallets, and

16:11

adding to their credit history,

16:13

leading to additional products, and

16:15

essentially creating that financial inclusion

16:17

that was ultimately their goal.

16:19

But the effect was to

16:21

effectively bank millions of people

16:24

who were previously unbanked. And

16:26

again, that's possible because standardization

16:28

fundamentally lowers the costs of

16:30

creating financial services. It really

16:32

is a non-zero-sum game. So

16:34

this may be getting a

16:36

bit idealistic, but could open

16:38

banking contribute to lowering financial

16:40

inequality in the long term?

16:42

Or is there a limit

16:44

to what you can achieve

16:47

with open banking? I don't

16:49

want to make it sound

16:51

like it's an automatic fix.

16:53

Open banking is fundamentally the

16:55

idea that by letting people

16:57

own their data, you're going

16:59

to create a lot more

17:01

competition, create more innovation, create

17:03

more utility, and fundamentally raise

17:05

all boats. That is the

17:08

dream. However, I would be

17:10

remiss if I didn't say

17:12

that there were risks associated

17:14

with it. The fact is

17:16

that if you don't have

17:18

the right kinds of controls

17:20

around it, the right kinds

17:22

of regulation, it can sometimes

17:24

help large incumbents become larger.

17:26

It can help governments who

17:28

want to debank people to

17:31

do so. That is the

17:33

risk, the idea that folks

17:35

who are trying to take

17:37

advantage. through competition and innovation,

17:39

but ultimately those market dynamics

17:41

in order to achieve goals

17:43

like supporting the unbanked and

17:45

providing social good. those market

17:47

dynamics have to have the

17:49

right rules and regulations backing

17:51

them up to ensure you

17:54

don't have that kind of

17:56

digital repeat of the same

17:58

concentration that led to 2008.

18:00

I want to stress that

18:02

that's going to be different

18:04

for every region, for every

18:06

country, the dynamics of how

18:08

much regulation you need and

18:10

how much market activity you

18:12

need are going to vary.

18:15

The two have to find

18:17

a way to work together.

18:19

In my view, the benefits

18:21

of the benefits. far outweigh

18:23

the risks. So open banking

18:25

is not a system without

18:27

its pitfalls, but it holds

18:29

great potential for a fair

18:31

and more modern financial world,

18:33

one where consumers have freedom

18:35

to use their money and

18:38

their data, however they see

18:40

fit. To mitigate risk, regulators

18:42

have a real part to

18:44

play, but institutions do too.

18:46

technological perspective. What other things

18:48

institutions can do to make

18:50

it safe? This is sort

18:52

of the beauty of standardization.

18:54

The idea of making sure

18:56

that everyone's doing things the

18:59

same way sort of automatically

19:01

creates a more secure, more

19:03

transparent environment where folks almost

19:05

have to play fair because

19:07

they're all singing from the

19:09

same song sheet. There's no

19:11

technological moats. This is very

19:13

similar to the way the

19:15

internet operates today. The internet

19:17

came along, rather than being

19:19

based on proprietary walled gardens,

19:22

a website was based on

19:24

the same technology for everyone.

19:26

So suddenly anybody could build

19:28

a website and anybody could

19:30

have email. You didn't have

19:32

to pick one provider or

19:34

another, these different capabilities that...

19:36

where the internet just sort

19:38

of worked together. In many

19:40

ways, that's what Open Banking

19:43

is bringing to financial services.

19:45

It's easy to see why

19:47

AWOL would compare the event

19:49

of the internet to what's

19:51

currently happening in the world

19:53

of open banking. Both technologies

19:55

share an ambition for easy

19:57

access and large-scale integration. But

19:59

if you're thinking we're getting

20:01

closer to global adoption, well.

20:03

there's a slight caveat. Because

20:06

banking varies so widely from

20:08

one country to another, even

20:10

within a region, trying to

20:12

create a global open banking

20:14

system for everybody is not

20:16

likely to work. What you're

20:18

in fact seeing is a...

20:20

focus more on interoperability so

20:22

that even though each region

20:24

and country has their own

20:27

way of approaching open banking,

20:29

there are efforts to try

20:31

and make them work with

20:33

each other. So you would

20:35

essentially translate between the way

20:37

one region does open banking

20:39

and another. They might not

20:41

be exactly the same, but

20:43

they could still interoperate. You

20:45

kind of touched upon it

20:47

already with your vision for

20:50

how the world is evolving,

20:52

but that's maybe narrowed down

20:54

to the next five to

20:56

ten years ahead. How would

20:58

you envision that open banking

21:00

and the world around it

21:02

is evolving? What you're going

21:04

to see over the next

21:06

little while is more mature

21:08

standards, better security. which makes

21:10

it even easier for more

21:13

players to participate, even easier

21:15

to drive more innovation out

21:17

of these systems. For example,

21:19

in the case of AI,

21:21

the writers strike that happened,

21:23

what, a couple of years

21:25

back now, where authors and

21:27

actors said, we don't feel

21:29

great about AI. just sort

21:31

of taking our work and

21:34

our likenesses and our words,

21:36

using it as training data

21:38

and being able to regurgitate

21:40

it without asking us permission.

21:42

I think open banking is

21:44

the other side of that

21:46

coin, the idea that, look,

21:48

we're not saying AI shouldn't

21:50

have data. It's an incredibly

21:52

powerful tool and it should

21:54

be fostered. But if it's

21:57

using our data, well... that

21:59

should be done with our

22:01

permission. And if there's any

22:03

value being created out of

22:05

that data, we should be

22:07

able to participate in that

22:09

value creation and maybe remunerated

22:11

for that value creation. So

22:13

expect it to get cleaner,

22:15

better, more utilitarian, more modern,

22:18

more integrated with some of

22:20

the newer stuff we're seeing

22:22

out there in the technology

22:24

space in general. Would you

22:26

say there's also a potential

22:28

to apply this to other

22:30

industries? I mean, let's say

22:32

not only banking, but health

22:34

care data, for example, or

22:36

also big tech? Oh, 100%

22:38

the idea being that if

22:41

a customer owns their data

22:43

in one sphere, then why

22:45

do they not own their

22:47

data everywhere? This notion of

22:49

data sharing based on your

22:51

consent. your control is fundamental

22:53

to the movement. Once people

22:55

understand that there is a

22:57

way for them to control

22:59

their data, to control how

23:02

it's shared, to turn it

23:04

off if they don't want

23:06

it to be shared, there's

23:08

a certain inevitable march to

23:10

that idea that it will

23:12

move to other spheres where

23:14

you have data that you

23:16

want to protect, and eventually

23:18

come to the point that

23:20

you want. expect that utility

23:22

and protection across all of

23:25

the data that you have,

23:27

not just banking, not just

23:29

finance, not just health care

23:31

and telecom, but indeed things

23:33

that that today we have

23:35

very little control over, like

23:37

our search histories, like our

23:39

social media behavior, like our

23:41

online shopping histories. AL has

23:43

his eyes on the horizon,

23:46

and it seems pretty clear.

23:48

The future of open banking

23:50

is far reaching. When he

23:52

started in the field, Only

23:54

about a dozen authorities were

23:56

banking on open finance. Now,

23:58

there are over 90 jurisdictions

24:00

all around the world pursuing

24:02

it. Making them work as

24:04

a unit is not always

24:06

straightforward. But global actors are

24:09

innovating, and building more mature

24:11

and inclusive open-source systems, one

24:13

after another. So there's much

24:15

more to come from the

24:17

side of Fintec. Watch the

24:19

space. And follow evil's podcast,

24:21

Mr. Open Banking. I was

24:23

really struck by his insights,

24:25

especially with the idea that

24:27

open banking can lead the

24:29

way for more diversity and

24:32

financial inclusion. So let's break

24:34

this down. We talk here

24:36

so much about the potential

24:38

through the podcast about it's

24:40

ability to support underserved communities

24:42

and really facilitate inclusion and

24:44

actual impact. It was cool

24:46

watching him point out that

24:48

open banking is not a

24:50

zero-sum game, which to me

24:53

is exciting and it's how

24:55

we should look at life

24:57

anyways. Vanara, what was your

24:59

opinion? What was the opportunity

25:01

that open banking really represented

25:03

for these developing communities that

25:05

stuck out to you during

25:07

the episode? It's a very

25:09

good question. I very much

25:11

do agree that banks and

25:13

institutions should work towards being

25:16

more inclusive and shaping a

25:18

more inclusive world. So what

25:20

was really interesting to me

25:22

was how open banking and

25:24

creating this standardized way of

25:26

integrating between institutions, how that

25:28

enables new products. new market

25:30

participants to create new products,

25:32

and especially if you look

25:34

at underserved customer groups, for

25:37

example, that maybe wouldn't be

25:39

interesting to the big banks

25:41

and big institutions who are

25:43

just looking at scales and

25:45

how to optimize the last

25:47

bit of their margin. But

25:49

then you can take a

25:51

smaller FinTech or a startup

25:53

that's operating at a smaller

25:55

scale, and they have this

25:57

exciting idea how to offer

26:00

banking services, for example, to

26:02

women specifically. I mean, I

26:04

still remember when the first

26:06

female investment products popped up,

26:08

or investment advisors popped up,

26:10

there was no such thing

26:12

coming from the big banks.

26:14

And that is ultimately enabled

26:16

by open banking. So that

26:18

I find really fascinating. I

26:21

tend to have the same

26:23

experience for the listeners out

26:25

there. They don't know. I

26:27

am for Brazil. And when

26:29

I look at a country

26:31

with so much discrepancy and...

26:33

an income gaps or just

26:35

even education. Open banking shows

26:37

the representation of opportunity of

26:39

what data does that have.

26:41

Open banking to me is

26:44

like leading the footsteps of

26:46

saying how do we put

26:48

parameters that allow us to

26:50

compare information to allow us

26:52

to standardize information to see

26:54

risk differently. So this notion

26:56

that API can also help

26:58

other countries get services that

27:00

they couldn't get before is

27:02

exciting. But I think this

27:05

highlights. another topic that I

27:07

loved you and it was

27:09

talking about it, which is

27:11

the importance of how do

27:13

you manage risk? What do

27:15

you think when you were

27:17

talking about the risk and

27:19

the opportunity in Europe that

27:21

this represents? Open banking, being

27:23

in Europe, what I find

27:25

actually a bit sad is

27:28

that enabling this kind of

27:30

data sharing and this kind

27:32

of standardization, how you communicate

27:34

between institutions, that it had

27:36

to come through a regulator.

27:38

It should have been in

27:40

the banks. own interest actually

27:42

to do that in my

27:44

opinion. But on the other

27:46

side it is a really

27:48

good example how regulators can

27:51

actually enforce innovation and that

27:53

is on the other side

27:55

very beautiful but once you

27:57

take on this I know

27:59

when you've been working quite

28:01

a lot with regulators around

28:03

the world. I love my

28:05

regulators. You probably can't say

28:07

that, but I love working

28:09

with them. In Brazil, we've

28:12

passed on so many changes

28:14

that I think you can

28:16

even see what's happening with

28:18

the FinTech market, and that's

28:20

all to do with a

28:22

lot of open banking and

28:24

open data legislation. You've seen

28:26

financial inclusion. You've seen an

28:28

impact in GDP. So this

28:30

isn't just a make-believe conversation.

28:32

And I think we've yet

28:35

to really fully realize the

28:37

potential for this, the potential

28:39

for what is my personal

28:41

data. What do I do

28:43

with it? Who has to

28:45

be the guardian, the custodian?

28:47

What's the responsibility as well?

28:49

A lot of people only

28:51

talk about the positives, but

28:53

like, this is an opportunity

28:56

for us to redefine citizenship

28:58

in the digital world. This

29:00

has been FinTech Files, a

29:02

podcast from BCG Platonium. This

29:04

season, we're digging deep into

29:06

the groundbreaking ideas that are

29:08

reshaping the future of FinTech.

29:10

And we want to hear

29:12

from you, our listeners. What

29:14

topics do you want us

29:16

to cover and who are

29:19

your dream guests? Feel free

29:21

to reach out any time

29:23

at FinTech dash podcast at

29:25

bcg platinian.com. We can't wait

29:27

to hear from you. Thank

29:29

you so much for tuning

29:31

in and we'll see you

29:33

next time on FinTech Files.