0:05

Today, I want to introduce my

0:08

newest and could be

0:10

one of my best friends here I think

0:13

and dead, is Bob Cagioni. Bob

0:16

is the vice president of commercial Sales for

0:18

Annin Flagmakers, the oldest

0:21

and largest flagmaker

0:24

in the United States, and

0:26

Bob has worked for them for I

0:28

think it's forty seven, forty eight years, Bob,

0:31

which is it.

0:31

Going to be?

0:32

This will be my forty eighth year.

0:35

Unbelievable, it is, it really is.

0:37

We have a lot of employees that's been around

0:40

for a while.

0:41

That's awesome, and so that shows a

0:43

commitment to the leadership, the management

0:46

style and the company.

0:48

I'm sure what you guys are selling in your product,

0:50

they stand by it.

0:52

So right, all of those, Charlie.

0:54

So let's start with just the basics.

0:57

Tell me, uh a

1:00

brief history of ann and how it got

1:02

started, and then tell

1:05

me how what have you

1:07

done to stay in the forefront

1:10

of the flag making business?

1:12

Right? You guys are everywhere I go.

1:15

I'm always looking at flags, whether it's this

1:18

you know, home deepo or this Walmart.

1:20

You know, I'm just looking and Annon shows up

1:23

almost everywhere. How do

1:25

you do it? But tell us how it started?

1:27

To get to where you are now.

1:29

Okay, Actually, it's an interesting story

1:31

of Annon actually started

1:33

in downtown New York City in eighteen

1:35

twenty as a ship's

1:38

channeler, supplying ships that came into

1:40

the Hudson River. At the

1:42

time, I think New York City was one of the major ports

1:44

in the US, and

1:47

so that's how the business really started. At the same

1:49

time, they were also producing flags

1:52

for the same ships. They came into

1:54

the Hudson in eighteen forty

1:56

seven, they primarily became a flag company.

2:00

So in reality, you

2:02

know, And has been around for about two hundred

2:04

and four years, but as and

2:06

in the flag manufacturer goes, it's been

2:08

around for one hundred and seventy seven years.

2:11

But what's really interesting, Charlie, if you used

2:13

the eighteen twenty date, that

2:15

would make Ann and I believe the twentieth

2:18

oldest company still in business in the US.

2:21

And I think that's right

2:24

after Brooks Brothers, who is started

2:26

in eighteen nineteen, and they are the nineteenth

2:28

largest. So it's

2:30

yeah, it's something we're really really proud

2:33

of, you know, and you know how

2:36

we stayed in business so long. What's

2:40

the famous saying, we're not we're not the

2:42

best because we're the oldest. We're

2:44

the oldest because we are the best, you

2:46

know, and has always been known for its

2:49

their quality, reliability, service,

2:52

and integrity. We

2:55

offer the most extensive line in the industry

2:58

and have great service. I mean, it's it's

3:00

a testimony to the employees

3:04

and management because,

3:06

like I said, you know earlier that I've

3:08

been there forty seven years as another person

3:10

there who's been the same time. And you know,

3:12

I bet you our average ages

3:14

employees other than the factory workers, a

3:17

noun of the years has got to be at least twenty five years

3:19

love it. So it's just yeah, yeah, people

3:21

fall in love with our product.

3:23

I don't know if I've asked you this in a previous conversation.

3:25

When are you going to retire?

3:26

Is there some is there

3:29

some benchmark that you're looking at, or

3:31

just when the time's right, you're just going to

3:33

walk away, you.

3:35

Know, Charlie, you know what's really great

3:37

about this industry. I mean, we

3:39

sell small mom and popper retailers,

3:42

and then we also sell the big

3:45

chains like Walmart and stuff, and

3:47

you know I've done both, and

3:51

but you know, my primary job now is

3:53

a VP of the independent resellers

3:57

and these people, I mean, they're

3:59

just absolutely the salt of the earth. They are the absolute

4:02

nicest people in the world. And

4:04

I've enjoyed them. I know. My kids have always

4:06

said, Dan, how can you you know, And of course

4:08

when they were living home, how could you,

4:10

you know, wake up and want to go to work and have

4:12

a smile on your face. Well, you know, maybe

4:15

it's just my mental state, but it's

4:17

also because the people I was dealing with

4:19

are just the nicest people in the world. And

4:23

so the answer to your question is when

4:26

I stop enjoying it, and I

4:28

you know, I'm on my computer by seven thirty

4:31

in the morning, and you know, I

4:33

mean sometimes I leave to play golf

4:35

at four o'clock or something like that, or but

4:37

you know, also help me on the computer at eight o'clock

4:39

at night.

4:39

But you've paid your dues too, is how I

4:41

look at it.

4:42

So if you want to cut out off after

4:44

forty plus years.

4:45

At the county, okay, you know, I think you should be able to do

4:48

that.

4:48

So yeah, no, and actually the president of the

4:50

company is very very good at that. You've got

4:52

something to do, you do it, don't worry about

4:54

it. Just get your job done and do it right. And

4:57

so he's really really good at that, and that that goes

4:59

for all all the employees. Get your job

5:01

done, and you know, he gives you a lot of leeway. So

5:04

it's it's been great. So when I stop having fun,

5:08

then you hang it out. Yeah yeah, all.

5:10

Right, let's get into some Let's

5:12

get into the nuts and bolts a little bit if you don't mind

5:14

of an and sure, easy

5:16

one. How many American flags

5:20

do you think you sell in

5:23

a given year. I'm

5:25

not talking stick flags, I'm not talking custom

5:28

flags. If you could break it down to

5:30

just American you

5:33

know, flag pole flags, how

5:35

many a year?

5:37

Well, we're privately held, so

5:39

we don't divulge that information. If

5:41

you ask me what our sales numbers were, I couldn't

5:43

tell you. I don't. I couldn't tell

5:45

you because we're privately help. The entire flag industry

5:48

is privately held, and none

5:50

of that information is out there. We try to guess

5:52

to see, you know what our competition sales

5:54

are, and well we think they're this million.

5:57

I can I can't tell you we make more than a million

5:59

a year, though.

6:00

So could what's your guesstimate

6:03

for your competition. Then what do you

6:05

think your competition is putting out a year?

6:08

Well, I don't know how many

6:10

in the way of flags, but we think as manufacturers

6:13

the industry may be about two

6:15

hundred and twenty five million dollars annually.

6:19

All right, and so I

6:21

don't know then, based on what

6:23

you had just mentioned, though, I like putting

6:26

up both your tough

6:28

techs American flags,

6:30

right, the polyester and then you have a nile

6:33

nile glow if I'm saying that right,

6:35

the nylons, which

6:38

I prefer only because

6:41

you know, as you know, with the nylon man, as soon

6:43

as the wind hits it, they're up, they're

6:45

flowing, they're bright. Now,

6:47

they don't last as long as a polyester. But

6:50

I like putting up those nylon flags. Out

6:52

of the two, which

6:54

would you say sells more the

6:56

polyester ones or the nylon nile go.

7:00

Probably that's a great question. Okay,

7:02

So the nylon sells

7:04

more in the smaller sizes you

7:06

know, three by five, four by six, five by

7:08

eight and even six by ten you get

7:10

eight by twelves and larger. The

7:13

polyester sells more.

7:16

Why, it's more expensive,

7:19

it's more durable, but

7:21

you are correct. The nylon flies in the

7:23

lightest breeze and the polyester

7:26

needs a little heavier breeze to lift it up.

7:28

But therein is the answer why if nylon

7:31

flag doesn't last quite as long as

7:33

the polyester because it's not up

7:35

there flapping around in the breeze

7:37

and where you know, the polyester,

7:40

Sure it takes a little bit more miles

7:42

per hour of wind to lift it up, but

7:44

you know, generally, I mean it just won't be flapping

7:46

around as much as the nylon

7:48

does. But so really,

7:50

the nylon on the small sizes

7:53

up to six by ten sell better. The

7:55

polyester is better

7:57

seller on eight by twelves and larger. You

7:59

know, you often get asked, you know, of course we're wholesale

8:02

only strictly wholesale, but we'll get asked,

8:04

you know, by consumers or something, well what flag should

8:06

I fly? Well, the question do you want to

8:08

flag flying all the time or

8:11

do you just want something up there that says, hey,

8:13

I want to flag on the flag pole. Yeah,

8:16

that's the answer.

8:17

That's a tough you know, it's

8:20

a tough question. And I'm thinking of someone said, well,

8:22

what kind of you know, which of these two flags

8:24

would you recommend, Like,

8:27

just like what you said, is it going to be up twenty four to

8:29

seven? Are you going to take it down?

8:31

You know?

8:33

Do you want to fly constantly

8:35

in the wind or you know, So it just depends

8:38

on kind of the environment that

8:40

that flag is going to be placed in will determine I.

8:42

Feel, which of the two I would suggest.

8:45

So I agree with you one hundred percent. I

8:47

listened. I used to have a flag when

8:49

I had my home before I moved into a town home.

8:52

I had a twenty foot pole in front of my house and I

8:54

would just fly a nylon And

8:57

then I moved, you know, but then when I moved

8:59

to town home, I couldn't have a

9:02

ground pole, so I flew

9:05

off the porch and it

9:07

was a nylon flag, you know, to

9:09

me, the only flag you really needed. Small sizes

9:11

in nylon. But people like the polyester

9:14

because it is durable, kind

9:16

of has the feel of a traditional

9:18

cotton flag, you know, if you get the flag

9:21

views, they kind of want the cotton flag,

9:24

you know, But the nylon is really probably

9:27

my fabric of choice. That's

9:29

my personal opinion.

9:30

Next question for you, with the Olympics

9:32

coming up this July, right

9:35

in a few months. Do

9:37

you anticipate or are do you already see a need

9:39

or an uptick in sales that you can attribute

9:43

possibly to the Olympics coming up.

9:45

The Olympics never had

9:48

a major impact on sales.

9:51

That being said, if we

9:53

were doing business with the Olympic Committee

9:56

or their decorators, and

9:59

we did that during the

10:01

games and the last time I think was Salt

10:03

Lake City, yeah

10:06

we would see we would see an

10:08

uptick, but that's you know, that's for usage

10:10

at the stadiums and stuff. Normally it

10:12

doesn't you know, you know, it may may

10:16

go up by half a point or something like that. It's

10:18

just not a significant uptickt

10:22

Now the presidential elections are a little bit

10:24

different, and there

10:27

you can see an uptick in flags,

10:30

especially since twenty

10:34

sixteen when President

10:36

Trump ran, well when Trump ran for president,

10:38

you know, there was an uptick then because the people

10:41

are flat waivers. Not

10:43

to say the Democrats aren't, but the

10:47

Republicans seem to fire

10:49

up their base more and you

10:52

know, so you know, there's so in twenty

10:54

sixteen we saw an uptick. Twenty and twenty

10:57

we did, and we will see an

11:00

up take a little later in this year. As

11:03

we get closer to the election.

11:04

Okay, and that well,

11:07

let me go with this one. And I

11:09

think I know the answer already. But the largest

11:11

run of flags that

11:14

you have had to manufacture in the history

11:16

of annen World

11:20

War two presidential election.

11:23

Is there a particular time or event and

11:26

what caused or what what made you guys have

11:28

to manufacture so many flags?

11:31

You know, flags are flags are pretty

11:34

much consistent in their sales. But

11:36

when you have an event, I mean, I don't you

11:39

know, I've been around a long time, and I

11:41

know our competition. No one ever has seemed

11:43

to create a

11:46

sale for a US flag where flags really

11:48

took off other than a war event.

11:51

So I was I was at the tail

11:53

end of you know, the two hundredth

11:55

anniversary actually started in August, so that

11:58

was pretty much over. But I remember

12:00

Desert Storm. Uh, you

12:03

know, we attacked Iraq and

12:05

went into Iraq and sales

12:08

took off. And uh,

12:11

as soon as the war

12:13

was declared over, sales went right

12:15

down. Interesting, Yeah,

12:18

I mean they went they were as quickly as they went up, they

12:20

went back to normal. Now

12:23

nine to eleven was a little bit different. So now

12:25

we were attacked on our you know in our home homeland

12:29

and sales spiked.

12:31

I mean, never forget. I was on

12:33

a plane somewhere and

12:36

someone said to me, oh,

12:39

what do you do? What do you produce? And

12:41

I kind of I gave an answer, well,

12:43

what do you think is the most sought after product right

12:45

now? And she said flags? And

12:47

I said and she and I

12:49

said, that's right. So the interesting

12:51

story was, okay, so here it is nine to eleven.

12:54

Our shells were empty, uh

12:57

maybe five six days later, and

13:00

you know we had a big warehouse and roseland

13:02

New Jersey and that's where headquarters

13:04

was. And I go out. I was going into

13:07

the warehouse and you know, going

13:09

up on the lift truck and say, okay, what's that box

13:11

up there? You know, we had good inventory, but

13:14

of yes, oh

13:17

those are some common flags. Let's bring those down.

13:19

And oh wait a minute, those are some old printed

13:21

flags. And you know these are some nylon

13:24

you know flags that whatever. It

13:26

just so, I mean, we went through

13:28

everything and there I never forget there was a We

13:31

produced some large flags at that same warehouse,

13:34

but in the back and

13:37

when you first walked into the warehouse, you

13:39

couldn't see the back, you know, where

13:41

they were producing flags. Certainly

13:43

a week later the shells are empty and you

13:45

can get all the way to the back. So

13:48

that was that was the busiest

13:50

time for us. The

13:52

question always was, well, how many flags did you

13:54

sell? That wasn't really the question was.

13:57

The question really was how many flags could

13:59

we have sold? I mean people,

14:01

I have a guy calls I went to buy twenty

14:03

thousand flags right now? Well, if

14:06

I had twenty thousand, we had a.

14:07

Phone call and the guy said, I want to buy twenty thousand

14:09

flags.

14:10

Yep, just out out from the West

14:12

coast. I want twenty thousand flags, Nylon

14:14

flags, broid starstone stripes or anything

14:17

that you really had, and we just didn't have anything.

14:20

What's really interesting is, and

14:23

now we were producing flags every

14:26

single day, we actually narrowed down

14:28

our line. We ended up going with just

14:31

the nylons so we can get the maximum

14:33

production out. We

14:35

kind of jumped sizes like

14:38

we I don't think we were making four by six as we were making

14:40

three by fives, five by eight, and you

14:42

know, and then jump over a couple of sizes just again.

14:44

To maximize the large ones here.

14:46

Yeah, to get to get people so we can get more

14:48

flags out so I thought it

14:50

was I thought it was a good idea, and I would

14:53

do it again. But the ironic

14:55

thing is that the three by five nylon again,

14:57

we were making them every single day.

15:00

We were back orders until

15:03

June thirtieth of two thousand

15:05

and two. That's when we actually

15:08

went plus. So it

15:10

took us nine months, nine months to

15:12

get the others were going out,

15:14

but the back orders, you know, you'd see there

15:16

though we have one thousand in stock or whatever.

15:19

It was actually always a negative until

15:21

June thirtieth of twenty of two thousand

15:23

and two, that's when it actually went.

15:25

So just to take this one step further, so September

15:28

eleventh, right, I was reading on

15:30

your website, you guys were twenty

15:33

times the need of what was

15:35

normal, a normal flag run, you know, twenty

15:37

times the need.

15:39

What have since nine

15:42

to eleven?

15:42

What have you guys done, if anything, to

15:45

kind of prepare if there is,

15:48

you know, such another national tragedy

15:50

like the nine to eleven did

15:53

you had?

15:54

Do you have more that are set aside?

15:57

Are you ready? You know, do you prepare for something

15:59

like that? Or let the ships fall where they may

16:01

and we go through that again? What do

16:03

you do if that is to happen again in the United States.

16:06

Well, you know, we

16:08

we now run three shifts and

16:12

we've built our inventory up,

16:16

and I would think that we

16:18

would be more

16:21

ready now than we were at nine

16:23

to eleven. But you know, we would go, we

16:25

would blow through the inventory what we have. You

16:27

know, probably maybe in two weeks if

16:29

the demand was the same. You know, again, our

16:31

inventory is probably the largest I've ever seen it.

16:35

But you know, you can't you know, we have

16:37

we have CFOs that work for us, and

16:39

you know they're on us about, hey, you just can't have too

16:41

much inventory. So you

16:45

know what I mean, We would do our absolute

16:47

best, but you just you

16:50

can't keep you know, I mean, we have millions

16:52

and millions of dollars worth of inventory, but you

16:54

can't take that same million times five. We

16:57

wouldn't exist as a company. So let's

16:59

just hope it doesn't happen, but

17:03

if it does, we'll do our best to

17:05

try to service everybody.

17:10

So in my ten

17:13

years of doing this flag initiative

17:15

that I started early

17:18

on, Bob, people started asking me, what,

17:22

what's a good way to dispose of an

17:24

old, tattered flag?

17:27

And so I know that many

17:29

people have told me take it to your

17:31

local VFW hall, right, or take

17:34

it to a local American Legion

17:37

or the local boy Scouts. Write a troop,

17:39

you know, teaches them proper etiquette how to dispose

17:42

of a flag. But I

17:45

also know that I was contacted

17:47

early on by

17:49

a woman, a matriarch if you will, of a

17:52

local mortuary. She's

17:54

ninety eight now, and she

17:56

reached out to me when I first started

17:58

and said, Charlie, when

18:01

people come to you with their old, tattered,

18:04

used flags and they don't know what to do with

18:06

them, you tell them.

18:06

To bringing over to one of my funeral homes.

18:09

Because what we do is when

18:11

we cremate a veteran, we put

18:13

old flags in there. So when

18:15

that family gets their loved ones remains

18:18

back, who's a veteran, there's flag remnants

18:20

mixed in.

18:22

Well that's nice.

18:23

So Bob, let me ask you, what

18:25

do you tell people when they approach

18:28

you and ask what

18:30

do you do? What do we do with old tattered, used

18:33

flags. What's the best answer you could give

18:35

them?

18:36

Well, obviously it wouldn't be to burn it. But in most

18:38

countries, in most places in the country, you can't burn. You

18:41

can't burn nylon or polyester

18:43

can't burn leaves anymore. So

18:46

actually, you know, flag is is

18:50

a appropriate number of

18:52

stars on the blue field with red and

18:54

white stripes. We move any

18:56

element of that and it's no longer

18:59

a US flag. So if you remove the field

19:02

from the flag, you can

19:04

actually just you can throw the guard. You

19:06

know, you can actually throw the stripes in the garbage

19:08

pail. You can throw the stars in

19:10

the garbage pail. I wouldn't I would probably

19:13

wouldn't put them in the same garbage pail together. But

19:15

you know, if as long as you as long as

19:18

you cut the stars out of the

19:21

stripes, you can throw them in the

19:23

garbage fiel. I mean, it is the perfect solution. No,

19:25

but it's probably pretty much the only solution going

19:27

forward.

19:28

Okay, See there's and I know last

19:30

time we spoke and I'm going to ask you about it, I learned something

19:32

new every time.

19:34

I didn't know that.

19:35

And so if you don't mind, tell

19:38

our listeners, what

19:41

what is the flag code?

19:44

What did it used to say?

19:45

And what does the flag code say now about

19:47

having a light illuminating an

19:49

American flag?

19:51

Okay, so the flag

19:54

code actually says that

19:56

the flag, Yeah, the flag code.

19:58

The flag code is yeah something.

20:01

In some ways it is very exact

20:03

and that's it. And

20:05

in money in many ways it's uh,

20:07

you know, it's not so exact. And so you

20:09

you know, you can look at and say, well, well this is

20:12

okay, so so okay.

20:14

So the flag coat says properly illuminated.

20:18

What's properly illuminated? Well

20:21

okay, so yeah,

20:23

you and I could could you know,

20:25

have the same thought on that, we could differ.

20:29

So if you are if you're flying

20:31

the flag off a porch of your house and

20:34

your porch light is on, is that

20:36

properly illuminated? I

20:39

would think so. If

20:42

you have a flag pole in front of your house and

20:45

the street light is somewhat near it and

20:48

it's casting some light onto the flag, is

20:50

that properly illuminated? You

20:53

know, it's up to discussion. I would

20:55

say so. But I've seen where

20:58

I don't know if the flag coat it's elf has

21:00

changed, but I've heard many people say

21:02

that ambient light is acceptable.

21:06

So you know, the porch light is

21:08

casting that light off, you know, on the

21:10

flag said off your porch. Uh this

21:13

the street light is uh, you

21:15

know, casting some light onto the flagpole

21:18

and flag in front of your house or build

21:20

it, you know, so.

21:23

You try.

21:24

It's I think it. I think it's

21:26

acceptable. I

21:28

you know, we do sell solo lights for both in ground

21:31

flag poles and uh

21:33

for ones that come off the porch. So

21:35

you know, so if they if they if

21:37

they want to fly, if they want to put the solar

21:39

light on, they can.

21:41

Yeah.

21:41

And and the way you answered the question was kind

21:43

of like it sounds, you know, like a gray area.

21:46

Right.

21:46

I was told previously or read

21:48

previously, the flag code said that the

21:50

American flag had to have its own

21:52

dedicated light source. Now

21:55

we're learning that ambient

21:57

light right, indirect light. As long as

22:00

reasonable amount of light is put on that flag,

22:03

that's acceptable. And you

22:05

know, I've had people ask me or tell me

22:07

why I can't put up a flax I don't have a light for

22:10

it. And my response was I'd

22:12

rather see an American flag up with

22:16

no light than no flag at all. It's

22:19

my feeling on that, right, and I

22:21

think most people would feel that way. Right, if you're a fireman,

22:24

you're working, maybe you're on call, and you're

22:26

unable to take down that flag at night

22:28

because of circumstances. I'd

22:30

rather see it up all the time than

22:32

have someone say I'm not going to fly

22:35

one period because I have no way to illuminate it

22:37

at night. I don't know what

22:39

your thought is on that, but I

22:41

just think to see more flags up. I

22:44

think the light at night, at least in

22:47

my mind, you get a little

22:49

bit of a pass right you're making the effort to

22:51

put it up. Maybe you can't afford the light,

22:53

maybe you can't find the light, maybe the light's print. Who

22:55

knows, right, But I'd rather see more

22:57

flags up than none at all.

23:00

With the flag purists

23:02

may not like your answer, my answer,

23:05

but I feel

23:07

the same way. So now

23:09

I live in the home now over fifty

23:12

five development, and for me,

23:14

it's not off the port, it's off the garage, so I

23:16

have to get a step ladder up to

23:19

take the flag down. So now I

23:21

do have a light near it. There's

23:23

also a street light right across the street from me,

23:26

so if I wanted to turn off the light and

23:28

go into the ambient light thing, I

23:30

could do that. And

23:33

I sell flags. I consider myself extremely patriotic.

23:37

If I didn't, if I had to, if

23:39

I didn't have the light

23:41

over the garage and the light across

23:44

the street. I probably would feel the same

23:46

way you did. I don't know if I would

23:48

get up on that step ladder every night when

23:50

it gets dark and takes that flag down. You

23:53

know, it maybe against the cold,

23:55

but I personally it's

23:58

not and it's you know, feeling, it's

24:00

you know, this isn't a company statement, this is my personal statement.

24:02

I'm with you, Charlie. I think I'd rather have the

24:04

flag up there than not the habit. There's

24:07

so many there's so many things to the

24:09

flag coded. I'm not a flag code experts, but

24:12

you know there's some you know, the great

24:14

big flags that go you know, you go into

24:16

the you know, before a football

24:18

game, and they covered pretty much the

24:20

whole field. Well, you're not supposed to carry

24:22

a flag horizontally, and

24:26

that's against flag etiquette, but

24:28

people do it. But isn't it a romantic

24:30

romantic I'm sorry, romantic. Isn't

24:33

it a great thing to the patriotic

24:35

thing to do?

24:36

And then also they have stopped, I

24:38

think, have they stopped

24:41

allowing American flags to

24:43

deploy out of helicopters or airplanes

24:46

on parachutists.

24:47

I heard there was a little.

24:48

Static about that and the flag coming

24:51

down touching the ground, you

24:53

know, I don't know, so I thought that at least

24:55

locally. I know, we have a college football

24:57

bowl game here and they've stopped allowing

25:01

the parachutes the guys that are jumping out

25:03

to have a food attached

25:05

to them as they come down for fear of it touching

25:07

the ground and stuff.

25:08

So right, I don't know what the reason I

25:10

didn't know. I mean, I read that Charlie, and I

25:12

don't know the reason why they stopped it. But

25:16

the only thing I had heard was that parachute just had to

25:18

stop. And I just don't

25:20

know if that was I

25:22

wasn't in the military. I probably should have gone, but

25:24

I was near in Vietnam. I was, I

25:27

was in college. I don't

25:30

know if that's an army thing, the air

25:32

force thing. I don't know.

25:36

So I talked about

25:38

this with you before, and forgive

25:40

me if if you get

25:42

a little uneasy

25:45

about it.

25:45

But it's a question that I've been asked.

25:48

And you know, being a police officer

25:50

for twenty years supporting

25:53

local law enforcement, you know, lots of people

25:55

over the years recently have really stepped up

25:57

showing support for

26:00

law enforcement, whether that's bor patrol, whether

26:02

that's their local police agency. Even

26:06

dispatchers I know have supporters

26:09

that that have generated

26:13

on a flag, I don't want to say

26:15

an American flag, but they.

26:16

Have generated a flag which.

26:19

Looks like an American flag, but

26:22

they add an additional

26:24

stripe or maybe it's a stripe that's

26:26

included in there of a different color.

26:29

Right, the thin

26:31

red line for firefighters, if you will, blue

26:33

lineal for officers, police

26:36

officers. Out here, we see a lot of

26:38

thin green lines for borbitrol

26:41

agents. And we also see out

26:43

here a thin gold line

26:46

for dispatchers, for first

26:48

responders. Dispatchers, right, they're.

26:50

Show right exactly. There's

26:52

quite a few of them.

26:53

So, about two weeks

26:55

ago, New

26:58

York Fire Department told

27:00

their ladder trucks that they are

27:03

no longer allowed to fly thin

27:06

red flag flags

27:09

off of their ladder trucks. There

27:11

was some big discussion in certain

27:13

parts of the country about that. And

27:17

I want I somewhat know

27:19

your answer just from a previous conversation, but

27:21

tell me what your thoughts are on

27:25

the New York Fire Department telling their ladder

27:28

trucks that they are not allowed to

27:30

fly thin red flags

27:33

off their ladder trucks.

27:36

Well, and then is politically

27:38

neutral. We make flags,

27:41

and we make flags where there's a demand

27:44

for him and I

27:46

personally fly a thin

27:48

blue line flag off the bottle of my boat.

27:53

I support flying

27:55

the thin red line, the thin blue line.

27:57

We make a thin blue and red line. Uh

28:00

that support support the fireman and the

28:02

police. But you know, I mean, I guess

28:04

it upsets some people, and Charlie, I'm

28:06

not exactly sure why. I mean, I've

28:09

heard people say the thin blue

28:11

line is

28:13

a racist flag. I don't

28:15

know how they get that. Uh you know, uh

28:18

them? So does that mean the EMS flag

28:20

is a racist flag?

28:22

I don't.

28:23

I don't really quite understand why.

28:26

Again, this is just my personal reason

28:28

that I'm not speaking for the company. I don't understand

28:31

the reasoning behind that. I mean, I

28:34

know, I know. I was in college

28:36

in nineteen sixty nine, That's when I started

28:38

as a freshman, and I had a bumper

28:41

sticker it said something like next

28:44

it was like support you're in New Jersey State Police.

28:47

Next time you help need help, But you're gonna do call

28:49

a hippie, you know, I I I

28:53

just I support the police. I mean, God forbid

28:55

something goes wrong, who are you going to call?

28:57

I mean, its a tough job. It's

29:00

a tough job for them. It's I just

29:03

listen. I just support them. I've never had trouble.

29:06

I've never even been in court, so I'm

29:10

just a big supporter. So I do fly

29:12

the thin blue lines you.

29:13

Had mentioned, though, it's

29:16

not an American flag. Correct.

29:18

If it has a blue line or a thin

29:20

red line, those are no longer considered

29:22

truly an American flag.

29:24

Is that correct?

29:26

Right? So? Okay, So the flag code

29:28

is very specific. It's

29:33

thirteen alternating red and white stripes

29:36

with an appropriate number of stars

29:39

on a blue field. Now that could be the

29:41

Betsy Ross flag, the circular thirteen

29:43

stars. It could be a thirty four star,

29:45

it could be a forty eight star, or

29:48

it could be a fifty star, as

29:50

long as the appropriate number of stars

29:52

on a blue field with alternating red

29:54

and white stripes. You this

29:57

is this is where some flag purists

29:59

get a

30:01

little upset. You remove any

30:04

element of that, it's no longer

30:06

a US flag. I mean, because

30:08

the flag code is extremely specific about

30:10

that. So if you do change

30:13

the if you do change the

30:15

stripes to orange,

30:17

I don't know why I said orange. If it changes the orange, it's

30:19

not the US flag. But what you can't

30:22

do is you can't take a

30:24

US flag, you know what,

30:26

every number of stars with the alternate red and white

30:28

stripes, and you can't put a motorcycle

30:31

on it. That is strictly against

30:33

flag code. Uh, you can't.

30:35

You can you know, people can't sign

30:37

a flag that's against the flag cold everything. It's

30:40

kind of cool in the way that, you know, if you mean

30:43

bob.

30:43

But so anywhere on the flag, what happens if

30:45

somebody some sort of autograph on like

30:48

I want to call it the border right where the.

30:50

Where you're the heading are gramits

30:52

are Yes, you can sign there, Yes

30:55

you can, okay, because

30:57

the heading isn't you know, it doesn't really the

31:01

code doesn't say and code just says talk to me.

31:03

It doesn't talk about the heaving. So my feeling

31:05

is that, yeah, sure you could put I mean and

31:07

we have to put our name on the head, you know,

31:09

so I guess it's name on the heading.

31:12

Somebody could sign it there. So again,

31:15

the code is very

31:17

very specific. There was a I

31:19

got of coal years ago, and I won't mention from whom.

31:22

But we were making the flag

31:24

of Honor and the flag of Heroes. Now after

31:27

nine to eleven, the

31:29

person produced the designed the flag of

31:31

Honor and the flag of eros. The flag of

31:33

Honor had the names of all

31:36

three thousand people who died in nine to

31:38

eleven. The flag of Heroes

31:40

had the first responders probably

31:42

called the flag of heroes. But it

31:47

was a blue field with fifty

31:49

stars on a white background,

31:53

and the stripes were in the still

31:55

a white background. One row had

31:57

red stripes of names,

32:00

just the names in red. The next

32:02

stripe head the names in blue. So

32:05

somebody called me and said, well, wait a minute, that's against

32:08

flag etiquette. And I said to him,

32:10

no, I'm sorry, it's not. It

32:12

is. I mean that's basically a white

32:14

flag with the blue field

32:17

with names in it in red

32:19

and blue. I mean what, we didn't even have the stripes

32:21

on it. I mean the stripes were made of the names. And

32:24

he was pretty upset with me, and then I said,

32:26

well, tell me if you do your research.

32:28

If I'm wrong, you had you called me back, you

32:30

had my number, and uh,

32:33

you know it was he never called me

32:35

back. I mean, you could up for interpretation

32:38

in my mind. And I am not a flag

32:41

expert when it comes to etiquette. No,

32:43

but you know, to me, it's it's the code is very

32:45

specific.

32:48

Bob.

32:48

You had mentioned just before

32:50

we started this uh interview that

32:53

you are going to Southbes

32:56

Is it next Monday?

32:57

This Monday? Maybe you're going to souther Bees? Maybe?

33:01

I mean, I'm not actually I was thinking

33:03

of going out. I don't think I'm gonna go because I

33:05

I live a little bit too

33:07

far from there. So what's

33:10

going on?

33:10

Yeah, so tell people why

33:13

you were gonna orench it and go in to Southerbeast.

33:16

Okay, So Annan has this long history

33:20

and I often say they're a footprint of

33:22

American history. So

33:24

in our books, as a matter of fact, if you go on our website,

33:28

you'll see an ann In history book and

33:30

it tells about the company going back. You know, all

33:32

their founders are pre eighteen twenty,

33:36

and it tells a story about Annon

33:38

and flags through the years,

33:41

and it mentions that the a

33:44

flag covered Lincoln's casket, a

33:47

flag was on the e regim our flag was on the

33:49

moon and all this stuff. But anyway, so

33:53

there was a museum in Jacksonville,

33:56

Florida called the Museum of

33:58

Southern History, and

34:00

they received from the Lewis

34:02

Applegate family a

34:05

flag that covered Lincoln's casket.

34:09

Now it's really really interesting

34:12

in that, first

34:14

of all, the flag has our name on it.

34:17

It says, you know, manufacturer, it

34:19

says and in the company as New

34:23

York City, and it

34:25

has this doesn't have the size on it

34:27

on the heading on the well. Also on

34:30

the heading this Lewis

34:33

Applegate signed it. Now, Lewis

34:35

Applegate a

34:38

company major, major

34:40

General Edward Morgan, who

34:44

was a close friend of Lincoln's,

34:46

and he was on the

34:49

train from New York through Illinois,

34:52

and Applegate was his personal

34:54

doctment. And so

34:58

that flag apparently was on

35:00

the train all

35:02

the way to Illinois, and when they got into Illinois.

35:07

We assume that we don't know this for sure, that Morgan

35:09

gave it to Lewis Applegate, or

35:11

Lewis Applegate just took it. I mean, I think back then

35:13

you probably wouldn't think, oh, this is going to have

35:15

some historical significance, you

35:18

know. So it was passed on through

35:21

the family. Actually,

35:23

I just I had the article in front of me. Let's see,

35:27

let's read upon conclusion of the funeral

35:29

procession Major General and Center that Morgan

35:31

received this US flag with thirty

35:34

seven stars, which he gave to Applegate. Now

35:36

it said thirty seven. At the time it was only

35:38

thirty four stars two but three states

35:41

were I think it's no we had thirty five stars,

35:43

but two states were coming in,

35:45

so it was becoming normally what

35:47

would happen if two states were coming in, They

35:49

would always put the appropriate amount of stars

35:52

on. So I think Nebraska was the thirty

35:54

seven states. So the flag was made for

35:56

Lincoln's casket with the thirty seven

35:58

stars. So so Lewis

36:01

Apple Kate took it. He had signed it in

36:04

the heading, which seemed

36:06

to be what people did back then. They would

36:09

sign the flag in a just maybe because

36:11

flags weren't sold so much as a routine

36:13

routinely at a retail level

36:15

back then. Hey, this is my flag, so I want to put my name

36:17

on it. So it

36:20

was passed on to Luisa

36:24

Applegate in eighteen ninety,

36:27

and then it went to Martha Worley

36:29

in nineteen twenty six, Clora

36:33

Conway in nineteen forty two, and

36:36

then it was turned over to a family their

36:38

friends in nineteen seventy seven

36:42

by the name of Daily and

36:44

they gave it to the Museum of Southern History

36:46

in nineteen ninety six. So

36:48

we had that flag at

36:50

our office and we were just in total

36:52

all of it. I mean, we've made famous

36:55

tag and I

36:57

mean this flag. They say we covered Lincoln's cass

37:00

and and they've gone to great

37:02

lengths to prove it. Flag.

37:05

If people go to your website, if I'm not mistaken,

37:08

there's a picture of you with some white gloves

37:10

on kind of holding up the flag.

37:12

Correct, yes, there is you. So we

37:14

bought you know, we will have we'll

37:16

have to wear white clothes because we don't you know, I mean for

37:19

the oils that would you know, stain them in

37:21

the flag. And uh, I mean it

37:23

was absolutely beautifully made

37:25

flag. Yeah, because we produced

37:28

that flag today probably you

37:31

know, I mean look as

37:33

old, but we could produce it exactly

37:35

the way it was back then.

37:37

You know.

37:38

Okay, so I have a thirty seven star. I guess

37:40

if someone needed for a museum, say, or

37:42

they're going to do some sort of exhibit, but

37:45

it's not the flag that covered

37:47

Lincoln's casting that.

37:51

Yeah, well so that is that's.

37:53

Going to go to auction. Then I

37:55

know you said we.

37:57

Believe it is. I

38:00

think they may be at Southerby's this week,

38:02

or I think they're supposed to go this week. And

38:06

I have a friend by the name of Jim Farragan who

38:09

is a vexologist who is a study

38:11

of flags. And when the people

38:14

from the museum came to me, they

38:16

said, well, what can you tell us about this flag? Well, I

38:19

can't tell you. I

38:21

can tell you that I have a friend Jim Farragan,

38:23

who does is a

38:26

vexologist who does the research on flags,

38:28

and just know, I mean to me, is most you

38:30

know, most knowledgeable when it comes to flags in the

38:32

US. And he has spent months

38:36

basically confirming that this flag was

38:38

on Lincoln's casket and

38:41

they.

38:42

Have to sign some sort of official certificate.

38:44

Yes, yes, yes, So I know he's

38:47

going to meet with the

38:49

people from the museum at

38:52

at with the Southern Southby's

38:54

people.

38:56

Well, I will be, I'm sure like

38:58

others, I'll be. It'll

39:00

be interesting to see if it does where

39:03

Maybe they don't say who, you know, if anonymous

39:05

buyer purchased it, but how much

39:08

you know, I mean again, it's hard to put a price tag

39:10

on things like that. But it'll be interesting

39:12

for me to see because that doesn't come up things

39:14

like that I don't feel very often,

39:17

so I don't.

39:18

I think it's probably, you

39:21

know, barring any

39:24

revolutionary war flag, it's probably the most

39:26

valuable flag out there, certainly

39:29

the one that mostly

39:31

probably the most iconic that we've made. I don't

39:34

know. I our flag was on the moon. I

39:36

think that's great.

39:38

They're not ask and none of

39:40

those that's not coming up for a bid, right,

39:43

I mean, that's so.

39:45

So what the interesting The

39:47

interesting thing about it is the

39:49

people that own the museum that owns

39:52

it, they wanted us to

39:54

buy it, and

39:58

and are our

40:00

pockets probably just aren't that deep. But

40:02

I think it would be the service for

40:07

people, you know, people in the United States

40:09

if we boy, we would keep it under lock and key,

40:12

you know, in our office, and who goes to our office.

40:14

You know, we don't have to see salespeople calling

40:17

in our office anymore. And but they're

40:19

hoping that someone benefactor would

40:21

actually buy it and then donate

40:24

it to a museum, in a museum

40:26

or the American public. Yes,

40:29

so they so those people can see it, because this is this

40:31

is this is some flag. It really is.

40:35

One last question.

40:38

That's going to be a question that I ask only

40:41

every time I conclude an interview or I talk

40:43

with someone, and Bob,

40:46

tell me, in your words, what

40:49

does the American flag mean

40:52

to you?

40:55

You know what that I just think it. I

40:58

think it just means freedom. I

41:00

mean, you know, of course the color is what they mean and everything,

41:02

but I just think it means freedom. I

41:04

always like the story

41:06

about when people are in the foreign country

41:09

and you know, they get to

41:11

the United States embassy and

41:13

they see the flag there and how it makes them

41:16

feel. Or someone's

41:18

come home from a war and they get off the transport

41:21

plane and you know, they see

41:23

the American flag at the airport and

41:25

they kiss the tarmac or something like that.

41:28

To me, it just means freedom. I mean, hey, this

41:30

in a lot of the countries are free and

41:32

they're able to do people are

41:34

able to do what they want, and you know,

41:37

we allow free speech like a lot of other countries

41:39

do. I just think it's that

41:42

symbol just to me represents

41:44

freedom, and you know, and

41:46

we are we are the country

41:48

that goes and helps people in other

41:50

countries, and I you know, I

41:52

think sometimes we're forgotten, that's forgotten.

41:54

But you know who always seems to step up

41:56

first. It's America. You know, where there's

41:58

a disaster in another kind, Who's sending

42:01

people over there? You know we

42:03

are.

42:04

One last thing just came into my head. Do you remember how

42:06

we first met, Bob.

42:12

It was years a couple of quite a few years ago.

42:14

Through an email

42:16

through Sandy Sandy

42:19

Vlad Yes, who has since passed.

42:21

I think, yes, yes, And we

42:24

stayed in touch, and you were aware of what I think

42:27

you were aware of what I was doing at the time, and

42:30

I think other people have also reached out

42:32

to you at some point to kind of give your heads up

42:34

as to what I'm doing.

42:35

So just just you

42:37

know, if if you.

42:38

Recall that years ago, right,

42:40

we crossed paths, and I'm

42:43

thankful. I'm thankful for you being on

42:45

today having this discussion

42:48

with me. It's

42:50

a tough time for some, not

42:53

all, to fly an American flag.

42:55

I think some people. I never tried to

42:57

convince someone to fly the flag. I give

43:00

reasons why, you

43:02

know, good reasons why they should

43:05

man the American flag. It seems

43:07

over the last ten years has

43:09

truly been under assault,

43:13

and so I appreciate men like

43:15

yourself coming on talking

43:17

giving a little bit of perspective background

43:21

to what the American flag really is, you

43:23

know, so you know.

43:24

Charlie, I would agree it seems like it's under attack.

43:27

But is that just social media? It

43:29

just builds it up. Listen, when

43:31

I when I was in college in sixty nine, seventy

43:34

seventy three, after seventy four, I was on

43:36

the five year Plan, you know, I

43:40

you know, a flags were being born, burned

43:42

in because of opposition to the Vietnam

43:45

War. I you know, I

43:47

I often asked this question, you know, do you

43:50

do we One of the concerns about the industry is

43:52

as people get older or as people you know, college

43:54

kids now, are they aware of the flag?

43:57

Do they really think of it? I mean, I was

43:59

in college during you know, during

44:01

the Vietnam War, and I really didn't

44:04

I mean I felt patrio patriotic, but

44:06

I didn't fly a flag. You know,

44:08

at my first house, I wasn't working for an

44:10

I didn't fly at flag, but I was patriotic,

44:13

So I'm really but you know, I became patriotic,

44:16

so I more patriotic and flew a flag.

44:18

So maybe these young kids now who

44:20

are out there, you know, marching

44:22

on you know, at Columbia University or

44:24

Princeton. Maybe eventually, you know, at age

44:26

thirty or thirty five, they're gonna say, hey, you know what,

44:29

this is a great country. I'm proud

44:31

to be here and gonna fly the flag. I just don't

44:33

know. I love about you. But back when I was twenty

44:35

years old, I wasn't necessarily thinking of of

44:38

flying a flag. Yet I told myself I was patriotic.

44:42

So I'm just hoping that these

44:44

people, you know, as they get older,

44:46

they become patriotic and appreciated.

44:49

I mean, of course we always sit there and say, you know, the greatest

44:51

generation, and you know they

44:53

were probably the most patriotic. Well

44:56

maybe maybe not, you know, maybe maybe it was

44:58

just as patriotic as anybody else.

45:00

And you're right, you know, we see

45:02

pocket, we see bits and pieces

45:04

of good Americans stepping

45:07

up to protect the flag, to

45:10

respect it. And I'm thinking, briefly,

45:12

off the top of my head, some college kids,

45:15

maybe back on the East Coast somewhere. It

45:17

made the news cycles about them, you

45:20

know, protecting the American flag from protesters.

45:22

Yes, yes, you know, so you

45:25

have to you have to look closely.

45:27

But there are good stories

45:30

good Americans out there that are protecting

45:32

and raising the American flag even through

45:34

all this turmoil that were

45:36

fed you know, you know, news

45:38

wise, but there are good Americans out there. So Bob,

45:41

again, I appreciate it. I look forward

45:43

to talking to you in the future. I

45:45

know this isn't it, but for our

45:47

first conversation together, I am

45:50

more than thankful that you did

45:52

this and that you had the time.

45:54

No, I appreciate the opportunity. It's

45:57

and it's a good story, really is.

46:05

Thank you for joining us on this episode

46:07

of Flags for the Flagless. This

46:10

episode was produced by Charlie Foley, Doug

46:12

Levy, and Jason wykeout To

46:14

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46:17

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46:21

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46:23

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46:26

Flags for the Flagless United Stories of America

46:29

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46:31

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