0:03

Thanks for tuning in to the flow by transport intelligence

0:05

podcast, where industry leaders talk

0:08

about the trends, technologies and influences

0:10

shaping the convergence of public and private

0:12

transport. A

0:15

special guest today is [inaudible]

0:18

who is director of the mass Alliance.

0:21

Welcome already on perhaps

0:23

we can start with how you became involved

0:26

the mass Alliance and what the organization

0:28

seeks to achieve. Yes.

0:31

So hello is , uh, my name is , uh

0:33

, Oregon cadets . Um, I'm

0:36

the master worldwide coordinator

0:38

, um, for Transdev Transdev is

0:40

one of the biggest public transport operator

0:43

on the welds on I'm in charge

0:45

to , um, uh , coordinate and manage

0:47

all the mobility as a service project

0:49

we may have around the world. So

0:51

from Australia , uh , Asia,

0:54

middle East Europe, for sure

0:56

, uh, North on South America

0:58

, uh, mass Alliance

1:01

, um, is an a, is an association

1:03

, uh, from people from a

1:05

pubic sector , uh , pubic

1:07

operator, but also private operators

1:10

on private sectors. It's

1:12

an association, but gathered everyone

1:15

, uh, to understand

1:17

what is mass on , what could be mass

1:19

to make sure that everyone has

1:22

the same chance and everyone can

1:24

work together.

1:25

Why do you think that Mars is

1:27

such a progressive model for transportation

1:30

, um , around the world? And

1:32

typically, what would you expect to see within

1:34

a Moz scheme?

1:37

So, mobility as a

1:39

service is a concept , but it's not

1:41

necessarily new. We were starting to talk

1:43

about mass , uh, since , uh, 2015,

1:47

2014. Uh,

1:49

so as a CLI , uh , six,

1:51

seven years ago , um, the

1:53

idea was you should think

1:55

about mobility. We have a lot

1:58

of silos. You have the silos of public

2:00

transport, and even within the previous

2:02

transport, you can say you have the bus as on one side,

2:05

the trauma on the another side of

2:07

a train , um, you can have

2:09

boats also depends where you are in

2:11

the world. Uh, after that you have a silo

2:14

on the taxi that got a

2:17

little bit , uh, checked up , um,

2:20

these Uber on Lyft that

2:22

the TNC and you have the

2:25

new light share mobility

2:27

with , uh , East quarter e-bike

2:29

, uh, mopeds , et cetera,

2:32

et cetera. So if you think that

2:34

we had such a many silos

2:36

and mobility, so many choice, I want

2:38

them to never , uh, it makes

2:40

sense to have everything under

2:43

the same channel. So Moby

2:45

to the service concept is how

2:47

you aggregate all of the mobility

2:50

to become private , uh,

2:52

that are operating within one territory.

2:54

So the end user can

2:57

plan a trip from a to, and

3:00

being able to get some multiple shortages

3:02

of mobilities on cookie . So intermodal,

3:05

that means , uh , I take my, my , um

3:07

, my car and I go park somewhere on

3:10

Ben , take the train to go to the center of

3:12

the city. And so

3:15

why it's that progressive it's because

3:17

we have to think beyond each

3:19

silos, that's meaning we'll break down all those

3:21

silos. We put an umbrella on

3:23

it. We have to rethink the organization,

3:27

because if you think about it, if, if

3:29

each mobility services are

3:31

working on operating on , uh,

3:34

in their side , uh , thinking about their

3:36

own clients, but they're the

3:38

clients of the scooter could be also

3:40

the clients of Uber on QDR . So the clients

3:42

of priveq transport . So

3:45

these clients should

3:47

be able to have a better understanding

3:50

what are the options in one places,

3:52

and for the tribute transport

3:55

authorities , having such information

3:57

could also help them to really

3:59

imagine how the

4:01

mobility should be in their territories. So

4:05

that, that's why it's very progressive. And

4:07

that's why it's kind of new

4:10

in term of, I mean , new, not because

4:13

it has been there for six years or

4:15

more, but because it's new in

4:17

the mindset of people that could be consuming

4:20

everything in one application, instead

4:22

of having to download a

4:25

hundred of applications

4:26

About mobility as a service

4:29

, uh, in the context of the pandemic,

4:32

do you think that , um, the

4:35

, the COVID situation has increased

4:37

interest in mobility as a service?

4:39

And why might that be?

4:43

Yes. In fact, what is very interesting

4:45

is , um, with, upon the pandemic , um, everybody

4:48

agrees , uh, that the

4:51

public transport is the backbone of

4:53

the mass with the pandemic.

4:56

Not that many people were back in the public

4:59

transport. So a lot of people questioned

5:02

the survival of the concept

5:04

of the mass , but at the same

5:06

time, mass is a digitalization

5:08

of all the mobility services

5:11

offered in a territory is preclinical privates

5:13

. So all was information

5:15

gathered in one place is give opportunity

5:18

to VMs operator to provide

5:20

more information

5:23

in term of safety and security.

5:26

So that's one thing. The second

5:28

thing is would

5:30

you to create a mass to deploy

5:32

a mass? You need a strong

5:35

and digitalized public transport operator,

5:38

meaning you need to have a good

5:41

traveler information for the end user

5:43

meaning knowing when , uh,

5:46

the burst of a train will arrive, or

5:48

if something happened giving an , uh,

5:51

an estimation of delay, but,

5:53

but , uh , really estimation that could really

5:56

occur. And that's something know , uh

5:58

, we've a finger in the wind and say, Oh, it's

6:01

mayor rent today. Uh, so

6:03

we've all digitalization. We are unable to

6:05

give a better data

6:08

information for the end user 30

6:12

continue right now is either

6:14

a paper or a

6:16

smart count . The fact that

6:18

a new generation of

6:20

ticketing that is being digitalized

6:23

, uh, for QR codes , um,

6:26

but has been deployed for pass two for years

6:28

, uh , in certain city will

6:30

help them us because without this digitalization

6:33

of a ticketing, you can't have a mass artists

6:35

. You can't have a digital is a sharing of aggregating

6:38

all those mobility services in one place,

6:41

the pandemic helping speed

6:43

it up, viz a viz

6:45

deployment of digitalization. The

6:48

ticketing was a nice to have in

6:50

a lot of places. We've a pandemic

6:53

where end user on

6:55

even the driver who didn't

6:57

want to have a direct contact

6:59

with the traveler. Uh,

7:02

the only answer to that was

7:04

how would you digitalize the ticketing?

7:07

You can have , um, text message ticketing.

7:10

It's great, but it's very difficult to

7:12

put in place in term of the fact that it's

7:14

built on your , uh , mobile operator

7:17

, uh , bill. So you need your mobile

7:19

operator agreeing to , um,

7:21

to do these kinds of services. You

7:23

could use your credit card as a contact

7:26

list, open payment system, but

7:28

that's more expensive and just

7:30

a digitalization of a ticketing. So

7:33

suddenly , um, the

7:35

project of digitalization of a ticket team

7:38

that we have planned for next two, three, four years

7:40

in many medium cities came

7:43

as , uh , an emergency on , um

7:45

, must have thanks to

7:47

that. All those medium CTS

7:50

that were on ready to deploy

7:52

a mass are ready now

7:55

to diplomas because they put in

7:57

place with digitalization system

7:59

needed for that one of them ,

8:00

The, the main things

8:03

for that will contribute to the success

8:05

of a mass project will

8:07

be consumer confidence that

8:09

they're happy to use it. And

8:12

I suppose that, that makes you think

8:14

about things like account-based ticketing. Uh,

8:17

do you see ABT as a fundamental

8:20

part of a successful , uh

8:22

, mad scheme?

8:25

The thing with ABT is

8:27

, um , is mainly linked with

8:29

a credit card, a credit

8:31

card linked to a bank account or credit card that

8:33

could be refilled like as a

8:35

wallet. Um , it's very

8:38

difficult to link , uh, an ABT

8:40

on a mass application because

8:42

it's not the same system. Uh, ABT

8:45

is linked to the,

8:47

the fare on ticketing scheme

8:50

, uh, other public transport

8:52

operator , uh, that have put in

8:54

place such a , um , a system. So

8:57

it's, it's very great for

8:59

the end user who are occasional on

9:02

want to use their credit card to

9:04

tap in, tap out like in London.

9:07

And , um, uh, if

9:09

the fare system has a capping

9:12

system, the ABT is perfect for

9:14

that because you are built at the end of

9:16

the day, the number of trips

9:18

you've done , uh, on if

9:20

you reach the maximum, it

9:23

doesn't matter. Your credit card is till your token

9:25

to open the Gates, but

9:28

you are not , uh , you are not , um,

9:30

uh, you don't are charged , uh,

9:33

at the end of the day because you're , you're new,

9:35

just accumulated enough to

9:37

pay the maximum amount. And then you can continue

9:39

to travel during the day with a PMO.

9:42

Uh, this is definitely great for

9:45

credit cards. Um, the,

9:47

the link between an EBT on a

9:50

mass application is not

9:52

done yet. Uh, hopefully

9:54

it will be done , uh,

9:56

but it's a little bit more complicated.

9:59

What about operators? Can you

10:01

see some benefits for operators or is there

10:03

an element of you have to build some

10:05

trust up in the system?

10:08

Yes. In fact, we

10:10

, we know now, but , um, uh,

10:13

to deploy a mass is not a technical

10:15

issues. I mean, you have some ticking , technical

10:17

issues between interfaces between

10:19

, um , the , uh , mobility

10:21

as a service provider. You want to integrate in

10:23

it that may don't have the right API

10:26

and giving access to the right data

10:28

for them on their system , uh,

10:31

to , uh, to work on a mass , but

10:33

that's, that's can be fixed. The

10:36

major problem right now is I'm

10:38

living in , I was talking about silos. Uh

10:40

, when you break down silos, you are getting

10:43

people who are not working

10:45

together on most of the time, when you

10:47

talk about silos, people are competing

10:49

between silos. So the

10:51

, the most difficult part

10:54

right now for , um , the

10:56

big transport , uh, on the private

10:58

transport. So pre beacon , private operators

11:01

is to trust each other, to

11:04

create a system that could

11:06

be beneficial for everyone. Why

11:09

it's, because if you create a system

11:12

where everyone can share all the data

11:14

that is needed to optimize

11:17

, uh, their respective operation

11:21

taking to be able to offer a better offer

11:23

at the end of the day, to the end user, what

11:27

is a real problem now is people

11:29

who do have to use their car on.

11:32

They don't see any alternative to

11:35

their own private car. If

11:38

the offers between public

11:40

and private operators is

11:42

synchronized at a point where

11:45

we can create an alternative

11:48

of the private car, not every time, but

11:50

most of the time, that would be

11:52

a first step for people to say,

11:54

okay, today, I'm not going to use my private car.

11:56

I'm going to use the mass . So

12:00

for that, you need trust between

12:02

parties because in

12:04

a way it's like you're putting all

12:06

the competitors in one platform

12:09

and they need to trust the algorithm

12:12

to be the best for everyone.

12:14

And if we think about , um,

12:16

the ownership of a mad

12:18

scheme, who would you think

12:20

, uh, should be responsible for

12:23

setting the rules and making sure

12:25

that everything works fairly for everybody?

12:27

Because I guess that's part of

12:29

a trust issue as well, maybe from an operator

12:32

point of view.

12:33

Yes. So I think everyone

12:36

agrees on the fact that , um, the

12:40

mobility as a service , um,

12:42

because it's the mobility of people

12:44

, uh , in a region, in a territory,

12:47

we need a trusted third party

12:49

, um, to organize

12:52

on, to create the governance , uh,

12:54

obvious mob details , a service , uh

12:57

, even if it's operated by a pubic

12:59

private operators, it's

13:01

the PTA , but public transport authority,

13:04

the ones who are , um , on

13:07

a public sector, elected by

13:09

the citizen who are

13:11

supposed to be there for the good of everyone.

13:14

So to, to put in place the right

13:16

mobility policy with

13:18

, uh , VIG of inclusion.

13:21

So for everyone rich,

13:23

poor , uh, healthy

13:26

and healthy , uh, for

13:28

everyone in their daily life , uh,

13:31

you have a luggage, you don't , uh, you

13:33

have a small children , um,

13:35

for women who are pregnant , uh,

13:37

for people who are normally healthy on

13:39

had an accident and suddenly , uh,

13:42

are on wheelchair. And so we

13:45

need to think about everyone on , on the only

13:47

people that can do that are people who are driven

13:49

by , uh, benefits. So

13:52

it's important that the mass should be

13:54

fought on Gavin . Five

13:57

is authority . Then the mass

13:59

could be a lead

14:02

on organized , uh , organized , operated

14:05

by a public transport operator. It

14:07

could be a sole led by a

14:09

public authority, a company

14:12

that is owned by the city. For instance,

14:14

it could be also a private operator

14:17

, uh, or it could be , um,

14:19

yeah , it could be many things. The

14:22

governance has to be local on

14:25

national local for

14:27

the fact that the mobility is very

14:29

local. Uh , you can find the same

14:31

mobility providers from city

14:33

to city, but after that, each

14:36

match each mobility as a service

14:38

has the same mindset in term of

14:40

, uh , data privacy for the end user

14:43

. Um, what should be

14:45

done in term of , um, what

14:48

are the data needed , uh , to improve

14:50

the, of mobility of people

14:53

on goods within one territories

14:55

? So the charter choice could be local or national.

14:58

The prime is the same, I suppose,

15:00

When we think about mobility

15:02

as a service, there's a temptation to think

15:04

about smart cities as well. Um,

15:07

do you think that maths is just

15:09

as applicable to say a

15:11

regional structure , uh,

15:14

as opposed to just a large city

15:17

Math is like , um , the

15:19

mobile operator, we

15:21

, we have , um, have our cell phones.

15:24

Um , we need to room being able

15:26

to room from one region to

15:29

another one was something but

15:31

one country to another one. So

15:34

it's very important also , but , um

15:36

, someone who, when you

15:38

have, when we'll be in a

15:40

position where you will have mass everywhere

15:42

, uh, it will be very

15:45

important that the interconnection between

15:47

masses will be done , uh,

15:50

in a seamlessly. Uh , so

15:52

it's going to be good to have some local ones,

15:55

some regional, one national one on

15:57

international ones. Uh,

16:00

so I don't know if it's really answering

16:02

exactly the question,

16:04

but what I can , uh, can tell you is , uh

16:06

, it depends on sort of a region

16:09

because there are some regional where you have a big city

16:12

and suddenly , um , the number

16:14

of people , uh, in the

16:16

distant suburbs , uh, are , are not that

16:18

many. Uh, so it's , it's going

16:20

to be very important to understand the local context.

16:24

Um, and they are also the concept of

16:27

rural mass, their shoes

16:29

, uh, your

16:31

, uh , mass on , on, after

16:33

that you have a capital mass , uh , uh,

16:36

when I say capital masses, when you have

16:38

a capital with many different players

16:41

for each mobility service provider, what

16:43

I mean by this is when you have medium

16:46

cities. Most of the time you have one,

16:48

one company for e-bikes one

16:51

company for Cassia , one company

16:53

for the East corridor , uh, on

16:55

one PTO when public transport operator,

16:58

when you are in the capital , most of the time you have to

17:00

, you have one, two, three, four different bike

17:03

companies, one, two, three, four East quarters

17:05

company on there.

17:07

The number of options for mass

17:09

, uh, are multiple.

17:11

So that's where you're going to have

17:14

, uh , on new w you

17:16

will need a good governance

17:18

to make sure that everything is set

17:20

properly , uh, on the data would share

17:22

between all of us nurses so they

17:24

can all offer the best for their

17:26

own clients.

17:27

I suppose. The other element that may be,

17:29

we need to think about is, is

17:32

private transport, private cars

17:34

and parking, because we know that

17:37

obviously there are concerns at the moment about

17:39

congestion pollution,

17:42

but I suppose with , um, Evie

17:44

charging, Oh , sorry, with V cars

17:46

coming along , uh, maybe

17:49

attitudes will change a bit towards private

17:51

cars. And , um, and

17:53

I suppose the question then is

17:55

how do we balance private

17:58

car ownership against, against

18:00

a MAs opportunity?

18:04

So I'm going

18:06

to talk about my personal life, because the

18:08

first perfect example of someone

18:11

who travel a lot, I mean, previously,

18:13

previously, COVID, I used

18:15

to travel between 60 to 70%

18:18

of my time , the road on , um , uh,

18:20

on most of the time, I always

18:22

try to find the fastest way to

18:25

go to my meetings when I arrive at a train

18:27

station or at the airport. And

18:29

most of the time, it's not the taxi in

18:32

the many cities that can sell them , uh,

18:34

the best way to go from one place to another one

18:36

, uh , is go from the

18:39

airport , Cisco with straight to get a train , um,

18:42

uh, on, on go to my meetings there , um,

18:45

for my personal life where I live, I live

18:48

nearby Versailles . So not too far from

18:50

Paris , uh, when I

18:52

want to go to Paris, most of the time I

18:54

take my car. When I drive to the nearest

18:56

Metro station, I park there

18:58

on when I take the public transport. So

19:01

I'm the perfect example of someone who's going to

19:03

do intermodal with my own

19:05

private car at the beginning using a parking.

19:09

So I think , uh , Avi

19:12

, eh , EVs car will be better

19:14

for the environment, but

19:16

it doesn't mean that we need to have everyone

19:18

with an AAV because congestion

19:21

is there. Um, there's two burden

19:23

, uh, in term of mobility, you have the pollution,

19:26

but you have also the number of

19:28

minutes on hours you

19:30

can spend in your car because of

19:32

the traffic jam. So I think there

19:35

are two, two sides, but it's very important to

19:37

, to still keep in mind, I'm talking

19:40

about health is very important, but

19:42

you have also mental health. That

19:44

is when you spend too much time in the

19:46

traffic jam. So

19:49

math should be also an answer for that, because

19:52

most of the reflects of people with their

19:54

private car , they use Google maps or ways,

19:58

ways . Doesn't give you any options

20:00

to say, Oh, you know what, let's park there on, take

20:02

the train. It's going to be faster.

20:05

And it's going to be more comfortable. It's

20:07

not a reflex. So we really need

20:09

to educate people. And

20:12

for that, my own

20:14

feeling is as most

20:16

of the mobility in cities are done by computers

20:18

. So people who are going from home

20:21

to work, we need to

20:23

include the employees and

20:26

employers, because if

20:28

you, if the employers don't

20:30

, um , send the right

20:32

message to their employees on how

20:34

they could, you know , uh, be more mobile

20:37

, uh, in a different way than

20:39

just using the private car , uh,

20:41

on their alternative, that could

20:43

be more beneficial for everyone. Uh,

20:46

even the , the employee

20:48

, uh, they won't

20:50

do it because the human nature

20:53

is to , uh, when you have a

20:55

routine it's very difficult to break, even

20:58

if it is to break it for better

21:00

thing , uh, it's a routine.

21:03

So I think it's

21:06

going to come with time. It's going to come, thanks

21:08

to the regulation is going to come also because

21:11

the governments local and national

21:13

will also help for that. And,

21:15

you know, start to think about what kind

21:17

of rewards we can put in place

21:20

to incentive people to use mass.

21:24

I want to come back at . So you talk about , um

21:26

, smart city for me,

21:29

Nass is definitely what

21:31

I would call the, the mobility

21:33

commodity in the smart

21:36

city. Uh, one of the commodity

21:38

would be mobility, mobility of people and

21:40

mobility of goods . Mass is

21:42

definitely this , uh,

21:45

component within the smart city.

21:47

Thinking about the future. How

21:50

long will it be, do you think before we all just

21:53

accept Mars as a normal way

21:55

of working and living our lives.

21:57

I think it's going to take some time

21:59

, um, because

22:01

right now we are still on test owner

22:04

. Um, we need to build

22:06

this trust between actors , uh,

22:08

in the mobility. So between the

22:10

private and the public, we

22:13

need to have a very strong regulation to

22:15

know what are the rules to

22:17

play with. And , um,

22:19

this has been discussed right now , uh,

22:22

at , at least for the EU and European

22:24

union. Uh, so hopefully

22:26

we will have a framework to work with

22:29

and being able to start to build a

22:31

trust among on thanks

22:34

to this framework. So that's

22:36

one thing. The second thing is , uh,

22:39

even if the acceleration of a

22:41

digitalization has been done , uh

22:43

, mass is not free. So

22:46

we need also to start to think about, okay,

22:48

what is the cost who is

22:50

paying on what could be the business

22:52

model , uh, because is

22:55

it going to be the pubic transport

22:57

, uh , authority will , uh , expand

23:00

the public transport to the mass for

23:03

the benefit of everyone on then the

23:05

mass will be subsidized , uh,

23:07

is going to be B2C . Like

23:10

many people were afforded at the beginning , uh

23:12

, where people would use , um, uh,

23:15

the, the mobility on

23:18

the, the mass operator

23:20

will get a percentage. Each

23:22

time someone would use the mass , uh,

23:25

on the consume , uh , mobility , uh,

23:28

to any mobility service provider are

23:31

, for me, it could be. So I

23:34

was talking about employee employer. Um,

23:37

I, I'm pretty sure that in the next five,

23:39

10 years employ employers

23:42

will spend more money to

23:44

give , uh , to the employee to

23:47

, um , ease their mobility. So

23:50

in addition to a salary, we'll have a budget

23:52

mobility or mobility budgets,

23:55

sorry. And , um, uh

23:57

, I , the more of a amount

23:59

will be substantial. The more it's going

24:01

to be used in mass. And that's

24:03

how mass will also , uh,

24:06

uh, take off thanks to the

24:09

employers on a , um , and

24:11

I'm pretty sure that that's where , um,

24:13

when the vis will, will happen

24:17

when the employer will be part of it with

24:19

the right regulation behind, at

24:21

the same time you were talking about EVs. Um,

24:24

what is very interesting about that is if

24:27

we want to refill our tank of

24:29

, uh , our car in a gas station,

24:31

that's mean we can, you know, plug

24:34

the car anywhere we need

24:36

to rethink about that. And that's

24:38

where you have a lot of think tank

24:40

who are thinking, okay, how are we going to

24:42

link real estate to

24:44

mass? How we can

24:46

give access to a private parking

24:48

owned by , uh, apartments

24:51

owners or Hafiz owners

24:54

to an outsider. So this person

24:56

can park on PR

24:58

on a recharge, his or her car,

25:01

and at the same time, why not? Because

25:03

it's next to a transition, take the train on

25:05

, go to a city. So I

25:07

think I won the money . The mass could

25:10

be agreed of

25:12

different can of mobility,

25:15

hubs, mobility, herbs

25:17

, like a train station or a

25:19

above mobility with many bus stops,

25:22

but also , um , micro

25:25

mobility abs where you have

25:27

only two or three places to

25:29

park your car, or you bike

25:31

, uh, places where you could come with your

25:33

own bike and park it

25:35

safely, because the problem with your

25:38

own bike is how you, you make

25:40

sure that issue, you ride

25:42

your bike from your home to the train station

25:44

, uh, on take a train to , um,

25:47

to a center of a city.

25:50

And you come back, you want to make sure that

25:52

your bike is still there. Um

25:54

, there, there are some countries

25:56

in certainty , uh , living a bike like

25:59

this , uh , could be

26:01

a problem. So it's , um,

26:03

so it's going to be very interesting to see everything

26:05

evolving around that. And

26:08

, uh, so for me, yes, I think

26:10

it will take between five to 10 years before.

26:13

In some cities, it will be natural

26:15

for us to , uh , be

26:17

mobile on consumer mobility

26:19

, uh , thanks to our , uh, our smartphones.

26:22

Oh , really ? [inaudible] thank you so much for your time

26:25

and your insight.

26:27

Thank you very much for inviting me on

26:29

, um , if you're a listener,

26:33

do you have questions ? Yeah .

26:36

Don't forget to tune into the next flow bird

26:38

podcast for industry insights into

26:40

the future of public transport. Thanks

26:43

for listening.