0:02

Food through sixty with Mark Murphy is a

0:04

production of I Heart Radio. Because

0:08

my pasta tastes different when I'm speaking Italian. It

0:11

might well because it frames your expectations,

0:13

and expectations make a difference to flavor.

0:16

And you heard of super tasters, Yes,

0:18

you have? Yes? Do you know if you're a supertaster?

0:21

You don't know. I don't believe in super

0:23

tasters. You don't, I don't know. Let's

0:26

see, let's see.

0:33

Welcome to Food three sixty, the podcast

0:36

that serves up some serious of food for thought.

0:38

I'm your host, Mark Murphy. I've been troking

0:40

for thirty years, everywhere from Paris to

0:43

Italy to Monte Carlo and here in New

0:45

York City. I've worked at and owned a number

0:47

of restaurants. Some of you might know, some of you

0:49

might not well Cirque, Seller in the Sky,

0:52

Lumis, Ravine, Layla, Ditch

0:54

Planes, Landmark. But my experience

0:56

is a judge on food networks Chopped for the

0:58

past ten years has really pique my curiosity

1:01

and food culture. I love everything

1:03

about food. I watched a lot of documentaries,

1:05

I read plenty of books, and now on my day

1:07

off, I'm spending it with you guys in the student

1:10

talking about food. But there's a story behind

1:12

every meal, a story behind the person who

1:14

makes it, a story behind each ingredient,

1:16

and I want to know everything. So pull

1:19

up a seat, let's dig in today.

1:25

We're going to discuss flavor. It's a subject

1:27

I'm very interested in. After all, I

1:29

tabled my first cookbook season with authority,

1:32

so I asked Bob Holmes and Gail Simmons

1:34

to join me. You just heard them at the beginning

1:36

of the show. First, I sat down with Bob. He's

1:38

a science writer who spent years researching

1:41

and interviewing experts for his book, Flavor,

1:44

The Science of Our Most Neglected Sense.

1:48

Bob, thank you so much for coming on the show.

1:50

Here, you bet my pleasure. Let's start talking

1:52

about your book. Why do you think flavor is

1:54

the most neglected sense? I think one of the big

1:57

reasons that flavor doesn't get the attention that it

1:59

probably deserves is the it's so hard to talk about.

2:01

We don't have the vocabulary.

2:04

Most of the flavor of a food comes not from

2:06

taste itself, which is sweet, sour, salty,

2:08

bitter, umami, which we actually

2:10

have words for, but most of it is is to

2:12

do with with a sense of smell, and

2:15

we don't have words for smell. If

2:17

you're describing what something smells like, it's

2:19

all by analogy. Well it smells like

2:21

lemon, smells like mint,

2:24

and we just don't have the objective words. If

2:26

you're talking about colors, you can say, well, you know, the Swedish

2:28

flag is blue and yellow. You don't have to say

2:30

that it's skylike and lemon like. And

2:33

that makes it so much easier. That's really interesting.

2:35

And I can just hear my little kids if

2:38

they taste something and I like yuck, they don't

2:40

give you a description that would it tastes like. It's actually

2:42

very very true. So understanding flavor,

2:45

flavor and taste are not the same thing. Can

2:47

you explain how that works. Flavor is really

2:49

the whole experience that happens when you have

2:52

food in your mouth. It's about taste,

2:54

you know those five sweet, sour, salty, bitter,

2:56

umami, And it's about the smell of the

2:58

food, which is like and carries most of

3:01

the characteristics. But it's also about texture.

3:03

It's about feelings of hot and cold.

3:06

You know, sound figures in expectation,

3:08

figures in you if I serve you two

3:10

glasses of the same wine, and I tell you one's

3:12

expensive and one's cheap. You're gonna

3:14

like the glass that I told you was expensive

3:17

better, even though it's the very same wine.

3:20

And that's because of expectation. And

3:22

the same sort of thing happens for strawberry

3:24

moose. I think tastes sweeter on a white

3:26

plate than it does on a black plate, probably

3:29

because you can see the redness stands

3:31

out better against the white plate. That makes

3:33

you expect it to taste sweeter and strawberry

3:35

or wow. One of my personal

3:37

experiences is I grew up in Italy, you know, and I

3:39

would be sitting in the countryside in Italy. As

3:42

a kid, I always ate new Tela on a

3:44

toasted country bread. I would bring

3:46

that exact same new talent back to America

3:49

and find a very good country bread in America

3:51

and have the same breakfast in an apartment in New

3:53

York City. And I didn't like it. I was

3:55

like, this doesn't taste right. I think I'm

3:57

in the wrong frame of mind. I'm in the

4:00

wrong place. I don't have the same oxygen around

4:02

me. I don't know what it is, but I'm not eating this anymore.

4:04

The expectations are different, Yeah, the

4:06

whole the context is different. In context

4:08

seems to be really really important. So

4:10

it really comes down to expectations in people's brains,

4:13

the way they work. That's a big part of it. That's

4:15

pretty wild. So what about the

4:17

deal with cilantro. Now two people can need

4:19

the exact same ingredient. We're just talking to ingredient

4:22

here for flavor, like cilantro. I love

4:24

cilantro. I am friends of mine that think it

4:26

tastes like a bar of soap. Where's that

4:28

coming from? Part of it is genetic. It

4:30

turns out that you know, there's a particular

4:32

odor receptor, if you want to be technical,

4:35

it's o R six A two. Uh,

4:37

that's broken in some people and not

4:39

in others. And people with one version

4:41

of this o R six a two are more

4:44

likely to like cilantro than people with

4:46

the other version. So part of it's

4:48

genetic, but it's not a very big

4:50

part. That explains only less

4:53

than I think they said, less than ten percent of the

4:55

difference in people. So mostly it's

4:57

probably expectation. The

4:59

first tiny ate cilantro, did it

5:02

surprise you and startle

5:04

you? I mean, maybe you don't much care for that

5:06

experience and nuts colored everything ever since.

5:08

Well, that's funny because I grew up in Europe and I didn't

5:10

have cilantro when when I came to America and

5:12

I was like, wait, why haven't I had this? I love this stuff.

5:15

So let's go onto like food pairing, and I guess

5:17

there's some science behind that. I know that

5:20

fried chicken and champagne are one of those things

5:22

that go really really well together, and it's pretty

5:24

obvious to me because of the fattiness of the fried

5:26

chicken and the acidity level of champagne.

5:28

The acid cuts through the fattiness, and I

5:30

think it's a perfect match. Is there science

5:33

behind all this? Besides just acid and

5:35

fat, there's some tannin and fat is

5:37

another one that there's good scientific evidence

5:39

for. So a big tannic

5:41

red wine goes really well with

5:43

a big, rich, fatty beef steak. You

5:46

know, the tannon helps to clear the fat off the

5:48

tongue and the fat helps to tame

5:50

the tannins, and so alternating bites

5:52

of rich steak with SIPs of

5:55

tannic wine actually really does work

5:57

well together, and that is scientifically shown.

5:59

So like a little ballet on your palette.

6:01

Yeah, exactly. And then of course there's

6:03

the whole food and wine pairing.

6:05

And I always get this every time I do a

6:08

food and wine dinner. And I've got you know, as

6:10

I call them, the corked dorks, the Sumays

6:12

of the world. You know, we're doing a food and wine

6:14

it or no artichokes and no asparagus.

6:17

It's it's as if I'm committing, you

6:19

know, one of the Seven sins. If I put an asparagus

6:22

on the menu with one of their wines, Are there

6:24

any other ingredients? And why is that? By the way,

6:26

because I I just do it, and I just say, okay,

6:28

I won't use asparagus or artichokes, Am

6:30

I okay? Or should I fight them? I would fight them

6:32

over the asparagus. I like wine with asparagus.

6:35

The thing with arctich chokes is apparently it's an

6:37

idiosyncratic thing one of the compounds,

6:39

and artich chokes activates sweet

6:42

receptors so that it makes the

6:44

wine that you sip afterward tastes sweeter.

6:46

And that plays really badly with especially

6:49

with red wine. Really wow, Okay,

6:51

So I'm gonna have to give him the artichokes. Unless

6:54

they have a wine that they want to taste sweeter, I'll tell them

6:56

that this wine is not sweet enough. Shuld we have an artichoke

6:58

with it. I like nice acid

7:00

white wine with artichokes. I mean,

7:02

I'm cooking my artichokes and white wine is my favorite

7:05

way to go. And a little bit of mint, like

7:07

the Romans do it, you know. For me, I love

7:09

I think there's a way to unlock certain flavors.

7:12

And when I cook white beans, for example,

7:14

I always put a couple filets

7:16

of anchovies in there because I feel like the anchovies

7:19

give it a little bit of background, a little bit of depth.

7:21

You know, how to describe red wine is having a little tea.

7:23

Well, I feel as though anchovies are

7:26

one of those ingredients that give a little tailwa

7:28

to certain dishes. And obviously an Asian

7:30

food, they use fish sauce, which is pretty much, you

7:32

know, liquid anchovy. As far as I'm concerned,

7:35

I love the flavor that it gives. Knowing

7:38

things like that, does it make you a better

7:40

cook if you can, if you can come up with things like this

7:42

a little at least? Yeah, I mean the thing

7:44

about anchovies than fish sauce is

7:47

it adds a mommy, which is basically

7:49

the flavor of decomposing

7:51

proteins of aged foods, aged

7:54

meats, olives, cheese,

7:56

all of that stuff has zo mommy because it's

7:58

aged and in the aging process

8:00

there's some decomposition going on, and so

8:02

it adds that. That gives the depth and complexity.

8:06

So knowing that, yeah, I had

8:08

thought of antrovies and beans, but I'm going to try

8:10

that next pot of beans I make. And that's why people

8:12

like age steak. I guess so much too, right, that's

8:14

gonna bring it because it's deeper, exactly. So

8:17

I want us to also talk about these people that are called

8:19

super tasters. Yeah, and I guess

8:21

there's what is it of

8:23

the population or super tasters.

8:26

So if you're a super taster, is that good or is it bad?

8:28

That's kind of an it depends. Super

8:31

Tasters basically are people with more

8:34

taste buds on their tongue so they get a

8:36

more intense experience of the

8:38

food, and for many people that

8:41

means they're really picky. I am apparently

8:43

also a super taster, but I'm

8:45

also food adventurous. You

8:48

spoke to a researcher who said she thinks there's two

8:50

kinds of super tasters. There's not adventurous

8:53

ones. Those are the picky ones, and then the

8:55

adventurous ones. Yes, it's intense,

8:57

the experience is intense, but that's okay,

9:00

as we're we're sort of seeking that. I

9:02

presumably have a more intense experience

9:04

of bitter than the average person, but

9:06

I still you know, I drink my coffee black,

9:09

and I like the hoppiest beer I can

9:11

find. And you know, my favorite

9:13

green is rappini, which is as but as

9:15

bitter as you can get for greens. So some

9:17

super tasters are just lazy and they don't

9:19

want to go through the exercise of having

9:21

all these powerful flavors in their mouth, so they just

9:23

become bland eaters. And you're one of

9:25

the examples of people that are like, oh wow, I want

9:27

to experience broccoli, rob I want to experience

9:30

a lemon, or you want to experience these

9:32

things. So so there's two different types of super tasters.

9:35

I love that. It's probably more complicated

9:37

than that. Psychologically, I put milk

9:39

in my tea because tea without

9:41

milk is just too intense, the tannic nous

9:43

of it. I tend not to like

9:45

the most acidic apples, because that's

9:48

just a little too intense for me. It's

9:50

not a black and white thing, right. Well,

9:53

you were just talking about drinking tea, and I'm

9:55

a big tea drinker most of the day, and I'll just drink

9:57

espresso like after lunch, after of nurse

9:59

and meal or after dinner. But for me, if

10:01

I ever go do you ever go to those hotels or that

10:03

you know, an hotel lobby and there's the big pot of

10:05

coffee and there's a big pot of hot water, and

10:07

so I'll take my tea bag and I'll make

10:10

my tea with the hot water. If there's ever

10:12

been coffee in that pot, I can't

10:14

drink the tea because I can taste the coffee

10:16

in the background. And it's amazing to

10:18

me that people don't understand that.

10:20

And people look at me like I'm a little crazy likes

10:22

this hot water in there. What's the matter with you? I mean, I

10:24

don't know if that makes me a super taster, but it

10:27

might mean you're a super taster. It might mean that

10:29

you're particularly sensitive to some particular

10:31

aroma compound in coffee. So

10:33

the next thing I wanted to talk about is traveling, and

10:35

I travel a lot. I try all the cuisines. Can

10:38

you explain to me why there's whole

10:40

continents out there? They have this thing for

10:42

breakfast called marmite. They

10:44

slathered on a piece of toast in the morning, and

10:47

I would if I was to ever put

10:49

that on my menu here in America, I

10:51

think I would be thrown out of the country. I don't know anybody

10:54

in America that would eat this, and I certainly,

10:56

I mean I I try everything, I like everything, I've

10:59

tried my damnedest can't eat the stuff?

11:01

What what? What's with that? It's tradition

11:03

and experience. We haven't here in

11:05

North America, haven't grown up acculturated

11:08

to marmite, and therefore it's

11:10

not part of what we eat. It's like it's hard

11:12

to find a North American that would eat Nato,

11:14

which is the you know, the Japanese fermented

11:17

soybean dish that looks like

11:19

a bowl of snot. Actually, the

11:21

Japanese love it, and most

11:23

North Americans have a really hard time with it.

11:26

And conversely, we all

11:28

eat cheese. What most of us love cheese,

11:31

and it's a hard sell, at

11:33

least until recently, in Asia, because it's

11:36

it's the spoiled milk product that's

11:38

smells and tastes rancid, and

11:41

why would anyone eat that stuff? And

11:44

that's almost entirely

11:46

experienced tradition upbringing

11:49

what you're used to culturally. You're right, it's

11:51

one of those tradition things you just have to sort of build

11:53

up to eating it. So I guess one last

11:56

question for you, and I think everybody it's

11:58

listenings probably wants to know. You're

12:01

obviously the export on flavor. Is there anything

12:03

we can do to improve our our flavor?

12:05

Do we have to choose slower? Especially as

12:07

a chef of myself, I want to know, is there something

12:10

that I can do to improve my my

12:12

sort of detection of flavors so I can make better

12:14

food for my customers. The short answer is pay

12:16

attention. But you're already doing that as a chef

12:19

and trying to find ways to articulate

12:21

the differences between flavor

12:24

experiences. You know, there have been studies

12:26

of wine professionals that show that they're

12:28

not any better than the rest of us at

12:30

actual perception. Their noses are no

12:32

more delicate, no more sensitive than

12:35

the rest of us. They just have better access

12:37

to vocabulary they've practiced,

12:40

so they can recognize and articulate

12:42

the difference between cherry and BlackBerry

12:45

and raspberry flavors in a wine. And

12:47

we could do that to most of us, but we we

12:49

just don't have the experience at it. So just pay

12:52

attention and and keep trying

12:54

and expand on your vocabulary. I guess well,

12:56

Bob, thanks so much for joining me and talking about

12:58

this. We're gonna work on our flavor or detection

13:00

over here. Cool. Thank you. We'll

13:03

be right back after a quick break. Welcome

13:06

back to Food three sixty. Many

13:09

of you may know my next guest is one of the original

13:12

judges on Bravo's Top Chef. Gail

13:14

Simmons began her food career after attending

13:17

what is now known as the Institute of Culinary

13:19

Education in New York. She trained in the kitchens

13:21

of La Cirquin Vong before working for Vogue

13:23

Magazine's food critic Jeffrey stein Garden

13:26

and then for Daniel Bloud. Since two thousand

13:28

four, she's been the special project director at

13:30

Food and Wine Magazine. Well,

13:32

Gail, thank you very much for being

13:34

here. Thank you in the studio. It's very exciting.

13:37

I'm very happy to be here. I'm always happy to see um.

13:39

So you're you're from Canada and you started

13:41

writing in the newspaper. Was it at your school

13:43

first? Is that at first? It wasn't my university.

13:46

When I was in college, I

13:49

started writing for the school paper restaurant

13:51

reviews, not because I wanted to be a restaurant

13:53

critic, although I guess I did, but I didn't really

13:55

think that was necessarily a viable career

13:58

choice. I did it because I thought it was really

14:00

fun and no one else was doing it, and I just saw

14:02

the whole. And I went to McGill

14:05

University in Montreal, and it

14:07

is an incredible city for eating. Has

14:09

always been, I think, by far, the best

14:11

food city in Canada, if not one of the

14:14

best in North America. It is an incredible

14:16

place to eat and drink, and I

14:18

wanted all of my fellow students to know

14:20

about this sort of cool, out of the way, interesting,

14:23

ethnic and diverse restaurants in

14:25

the city. So I took it upon myself to do some exploring.

14:27

I didn't get paid for it. All the money came out of my

14:30

own pocket for my meals, and I was eating

14:32

it like cheap, little ethnic joints,

14:34

but there's so much good food. Then I found a lot

14:36

of fun things to write about. But then you went from being a

14:38

writer and then you moved to New York and then you started

14:40

working in the kitchens and you worked at cercre

14:43

I did while I was a writer in Toronto

14:45

for a year. You know, I was an assistant

14:47

editor, and I was an intern at a bunch of magazines

14:50

and newspapers in Canada. And

14:52

when I decided that food was my thing and that

14:54

was where I wanted to focus on my attention, I

14:56

realized that I actually didn't know that much about food.

14:59

Just because I liked to eat didn't really make me a

15:01

food writer. And how was I going to sort of differentiate

15:03

myself. So I took some advice from a food

15:05

editor and quit my job in Canada, moved

15:08

here and went to culinary school and it did

15:10

a full year, you know of the professional

15:12

culinary program at what is now

15:14

Ice. Wait, did you go to Peter Combs. It

15:17

was called Peter Comes. Then I

15:19

went to there as it was called Peter Comes New York

15:22

School, and it was one street in New York Avenue.

15:24

So I was the first class in their next

15:26

location, the twenty three Street location. And

15:29

then when I had to leave and do an apprenticeship.

15:31

At first I was like, well, I'm just gonna go be a food right right now. I'll

15:34

just go get an internship at Cormet

15:36

magazine or something, and they convinced

15:38

me to stay in the kitchen for a little while. So

15:40

from there I went to the Cirque as my very first

15:43

job out of culinary school. And who was the chef?

15:45

So, so you

15:47

were there after me because I was there under who

15:49

had left? I guess by that, Yes, I guess so.

15:52

And then I went to Peter Comes when it was on

15:54

the Upper East Side, and I remember

15:56

it. It was not a year, of

15:58

course, it was a three month core prison. I called

16:00

it the professional housewife cooking school

16:02

because I was the only one who got a job

16:05

in the cooking industry after I left. And

16:07

that's amazing. Wow, it really changed mine was I

16:09

think at eight month course like you

16:11

know, a school year basically, and then

16:14

I had to do this apprenticeship and

16:16

I stayed cooking for a little longer selves. So

16:18

you must have some good stories, as do I am.

16:22

He didn't look me in the eye for a long time.

16:24

He didn't really acknowledge that I existed.

16:27

That is part of it. We used to call him.

16:29

I mean, he was an extraordinary cook, don't get me wrong, a

16:31

very fascinating man from Cambodia and

16:33

an incredibly talented chef.

16:35

But we used to call him the shark, did you because

16:38

we all wore tokes in the kitchen. You have the really old

16:41

school, round professional chef

16:43

hats in the kitchen, and he was

16:45

the only one who wore one that was different. His came

16:48

to a point at the top,

16:50

and he was very small, so he

16:52

was sort of weave in and out of all of

16:54

the other tokes in the kitchen, like

16:57

a little shark weaving through the water. So

16:59

we all called in the shark. That was very funny.

17:01

Those are some good times. I really

17:03

loved working in that restaurant. That was a lot

17:05

of and it was an amazing kitchen. What an enormous

17:08

kitchen too. It was hard for me. I was the

17:10

only woman in the kitchen, and it

17:12

was you know, formative for sure, but

17:14

it was not an easy place for

17:17

girls back then. It was. It was never an easy

17:19

place. I remember well. A lot of

17:21

stories. We could have a whole other podcast.

17:25

So your cookbook, it was inspired by

17:27

travel and your upbringing and flavors.

17:29

To me have memories, they have thoughts

17:31

of the past. But how did you take

17:33

all those thoughts and those memories of traveling

17:35

in childhood and so on and so forth, and uh

17:38

and and recreate the recipes

17:40

and put them in your book because it's it's all about

17:42

flavor in the end, right, it absolutely is.

17:45

And what's funny is that memory played such a

17:47

huge role in this book, particularly

17:49

it's called Bringing It Home. And the

17:52

original simple concept of the book

17:54

was to talk about all of

17:57

these incredible experiences I've been able to

17:59

have through the of my career, starting with my childhood

18:01

and the travel I did as a child. My

18:03

father's from South Africa and my mother's from Canada,

18:05

but they sent a lot of time traveling. We spent a

18:08

lot of time in Southern Africa growing up. My

18:10

father family then moved to Australia, so

18:12

you know, we have this very international

18:14

family. And then moving into

18:16

my adulthood. Serendipitously,

18:19

I've spent so much of my adulthood on the road

18:21

because of my job. And then ultimately

18:23

I come home inspired and I take a

18:25

lot of notes while I'm traveling, and I come home and

18:27

I want to cook it, and I end up adapting

18:30

and creating recipes out

18:32

of those memories. I always have the whole

18:34

thing with memory and food. I remember

18:36

being a kid in the south of France and my parents

18:38

took me to a very fancy restaurant called Chevrol,

18:41

which is still around, and there was a raspberry

18:43

souflet there that to me was

18:46

like eating the most beautiful cloud,

18:49

raspberry flavored cloud I can imagine.

18:51

And I can still remember sitting there, going I

18:54

need another one, and they're like, oh, well,

18:56

you have to order at the beginning of meal. It takes so long to

18:58

make it and so and I was devastated.

19:01

And to this day, I'm

19:03

almost scared to go back and have it.

19:06

And I know it's still on the menu because I google

19:08

it every once in a while and I see that thing is still

19:10

there. It's like an ex girlfriend. It's so

19:12

perfect in my mind. I don't want to ruin it.

19:15

Did you have did you find in your cookbook?

19:17

You're like, oh, I really want to make this recipe, and you make it and you're

19:19

like, oh, it's not as good as I remember it. I definitely

19:21

built up in my mind several recipes that

19:24

I had had in the past and I put into my book.

19:26

But when I went to develop them, I developed them

19:28

as I remembered them, just as

19:31

perfectly and just as magically. So the

19:33

truth is how they are in my book compared

19:35

to how they really are if you maybe go back to

19:37

that place and eat them, are very different

19:40

because I'm remembering them in

19:42

this sort of pristine way,

19:45

which isn't necessarily truth.

19:48

I actually have to bring it all home. I

19:51

have that exact recipe about a BlackBerry

19:53

souflet from Le Cercue. When I

19:55

was cooking it Le Cercue. You know, we'd have long days,

19:58

long nights, and once in a while, if

20:00

I had a particularly difficult night on the line, I

20:02

would sneak back into the pastry kitchen and

20:04

Jack Torres was the patriochief at the time, and

20:07

he wouldn't necessarily hang out with me, but I

20:09

remembered so vividly that that BlackBerry

20:11

sou flay was this perfect,

20:14

extraordinary dessert. They would make a

20:16

little hole in it for me, pour the cremon glass inside.

20:19

And years later, when I wrote my first book,

20:21

I recreated that blackberryou flay,

20:23

and I called Jacque Torres, who many years

20:25

later I had become friendly with, and he had

20:28

gone on, obviously to become a chocolate

20:30

emperor. So we spent a day together and made

20:32

black berry to flays, and of course they were perfect,

20:35

but he didn't remember them being sort of as

20:37

exalted as I did. He was like, yeah, I probably make it blackberace.

20:39

I don't even really remember making them Atlas Sirk.

20:41

He's like, I'm sure I did, but sure, whatever you say,

20:44

And I remember those very well. To me, they

20:46

were the only thing that mattered. Yeah.

20:48

Boy, So when you're judging food, I

20:50

think you said once before, there's taste, there's

20:52

flavor, but it's also it's a personal

20:54

thing, right, So how is it when you're when you're judging

20:56

on the show, you're like, Okay, the flavors

20:58

there where they're supposed to be a but I don't really like to taste.

21:01

I mean, how do you how do you balance that? I get

21:03

this question a lot, as I'm sure you do. Judging

21:06

food has become this job,

21:08

this very recent phenomenon.

21:10

Really, I guess since like Iron Chef Japan

21:13

and then Top Chef, and when

21:16

I talk to people about judging, they get

21:18

frustrated often because they're like, food is so subjective,

21:21

and I often tell them that it's

21:23

about understanding. Is the meat cooked

21:25

to the proper dumbness in terms of

21:27

the cut that this person used, and

21:29

did they treat it the way it should have been treated to bring

21:31

out the best flavor? Is it seasoned

21:34

well, which is to say, was there

21:36

enough salt to bring out the flavor but not too much to

21:38

overpower or any spice that they use.

21:40

Is it imbalance? Is there a counterpoint?

21:43

Is there a textual component? All of these

21:45

pieces, to me make up the

21:47

success of a dish, And of course

21:49

there's subjectivity, but truthfully, I'm

21:51

able to separate, for the most part, my

21:54

personal likes and dislikes from if

21:57

a dish is successful in

21:59

its preparation and judge

22:01

if it has merit, And

22:03

I think a lot of it also comes from the chef's intention.

22:06

I think you're absolutely right. Their story sometimes

22:08

does tell how and when and why they put

22:10

it together. And also on top of that, you have to have a

22:12

poker face sometimes absolutely

22:14

give your hand all the time. Although we

22:16

are encouraged on our show, they really

22:18

want to show authentically the experience.

22:21

And I appreciate that our producers allow

22:24

us to be ourselves. I mean, we can't make it

22:26

completely obvious if there's one dish that's

22:28

terrible when everyone else is good, because then everyone changes the

22:30

channels, you know. But we are encouraged

22:33

to engage with them in those moments

22:35

and talk about when the food

22:37

is really great, or when the food needs help, or what

22:39

these major issues are. But in terms of

22:42

finding the energy and the

22:44

articulation of food, are

22:46

producers are always telling us just that, you know,

22:48

we need description because telling someone

22:51

that food is great or amazing,

22:54

this is amazing, that doesn't actually

22:57

tell them anything. I've seen shows

22:59

like that where I want to reach through the television and go, okay,

23:01

I get you like it, but tell me what it is you're

23:03

eating. I need to know exactly what's

23:05

happening, right, That's it. So it becomes

23:07

a real mental exercise in finding new

23:10

ways to describe food

23:12

a hundred times a day in a way

23:15

that if you are sitting on your couch, you'll

23:17

understand and believe the

23:19

judges, because, as you well know, if

23:21

you don't believe the judges are trust their

23:23

taste, then you're also turning

23:25

the channel and the whole thing falls apart. I

23:27

hope they're trusting us by now. We've been doing this long

23:31

time. Something else I want to talk about it is

23:33

sort of the science. I feel like if

23:35

people are going to understand the science

23:37

of cooking, they're going to have an easier

23:40

time being a better cook. I

23:42

mean, for example, for me, I feel

23:44

like a lot of people just don't season their food enough. And

23:46

people always say they see me season and steak

23:49

when I'm at home, They're like, wow, that's a lot of salt. I'm

23:51

like, you have to season it before

23:53

you can't season and afterwards if you put enough salt

23:55

and pepper on the outside of your steak and give it a good

23:57

sear grilling it where if you grill it

23:59

have to salt falls off and it goes on the grill, so

24:01

you have to I always tell people season your steak

24:03

the way you normally would, then do it again

24:06

and then cook it. You know, it makes people very nervous

24:09

to see professional cooks seasoning food. My

24:11

mother is what's interesting about my mother and

24:13

I, as although she's a great cook, we actually don't cook

24:15

together because we have these

24:17

arguments because I guess I have like

24:19

a professional perspective, and

24:21

she's a great cook, but you know she comes

24:24

from that sort of eighties cooking mentality of

24:26

like salted the devil and understandably

24:29

if you are predisposed to heart disease,

24:32

high cholesterol, all those things. But most

24:34

people are very afraid to season their food.

24:36

But then they'll go to restaurants and wonder why the food

24:38

is like so good. And so it is understanding

24:41

the scientific reasoning

24:43

behind doing things a certain way. Techniques, the

24:45

reason that you sear a piece

24:47

of meat first before you braise

24:50

it, for example, or the reason

24:52

that you want to cook eggs at a certain temperature

24:55

or for a certain amount of minutes if you're boiling them.

24:57

My favorite caramelization, I mean sstables

25:00

get seared. People are like, oh, it's burnt. No, it's

25:02

not. It's caramelizing me exactly that. And

25:04

it's about sugar rate and understanding sugar

25:07

contents and my law effect and all of

25:09

these things that are actually science. I mean,

25:11

it's chemistry. It is protein and

25:13

fat and heat and what happens

25:16

when those things are combined. And so I'm

25:18

not saying that I am fluent

25:20

in all aspects of the scientific process.

25:22

But I do think that having that

25:25

professional background and understanding action

25:27

and reaction in the kitchen and

25:30

the reason why you

25:32

want to do things in a certain order really

25:34

help me understand how to cook

25:37

food well and explain it well in

25:39

turn, because we have to explain

25:41

it. The next thing I want to talk about, and

25:43

have you heard of super tasters? Yes?

25:45

You have? Yes? Are do you know if

25:47

you're a supertaster? No? You don't know. Well,

25:50

you know, there's a little test we could do. We can do that right

25:53

here. You're excited about that. I'm

25:55

curious. I haven't done it either. I don't. I

25:57

don't believe in super tasters. You don't,

26:00

I don't know. Let's see, all right, well, let's see. There's

26:02

a little piece of paper. The directions are right here.

26:04

Put the strip on your tongue.

26:07

After a few seconds, remove the strip from

26:09

your mouth. How does

26:11

it taste? Are you ready? I'm we're

26:13

gonna do it at the same time. I'm gonna be ready

26:15

with my water, my tea right here, because I'm just I'm

26:17

a little worried. What's it supposed to taste?

26:19

Like? That? Is nerve racking. All right,

26:27

what'd you get? Intense

26:29

bitterness? Yeah, me too, So

26:31

it says here non taster and hold

26:33

on, I need a sip. Yeah,

26:35

that's real. Non taster

26:38

will taste nothing, a taster

26:40

will detect a mild bitter or bland

26:42

taste, and a supertaster will find the paper

26:44

extremely bitter. So I guess here,

26:48

hold on, good thing.

26:50

We do what we do, Mark, I mean, we were born

26:52

for this. I'm surprised they didn't give us this test

26:54

before they gave us our jobs on the television

26:57

set. So now there's something

26:59

else interested and going on right here in the studio. Every

27:02

episode we play a game with our guests, and since

27:04

we're talking about flavor today, we thought

27:06

let's do a chip taste test. We've got

27:08

five balls in front of us here, and I don't know what's

27:11

in any of them. They look good. Let's see what this one

27:13

is. It's m this is terror taro chip.

27:15

I can tell you that it's as harot. That's

27:17

it. It's a salted taro chip. I love this game, by

27:19

the way. All right, let's try this one. This one looks like it's

27:21

it's a ruffled potato chip. It's got a nice

27:23

sun tan color. Oh

27:28

what is that? It could be what is

27:30

called all dressed, but I think it's

27:32

probably like a I don't know, like a barbecue. Really

27:34

a roasted chicken wing. Oh wow,

27:38

heck did we find that? It's like wine? Like if you

27:40

say I taste leather shoes, I'm going to taste leather

27:42

shoes. There's maybe some roast chicken in their

27:44

shirt. Take it. It's ridiculous. Now,

27:46

this one here is a curly thing

27:49

that you know when you go to a Japanese restaurant

27:51

and they cut the calamari with small little

27:54

criss crosses, or it could be like something

27:56

that you'd use in plumbing. I

28:00

love the texture that's like a shrimp chip of some

28:02

kind, because you're getting that like light. You're definitely

28:04

right. It's a rice. You get those in Vietnamese

28:06

restaurants. They're all usually like different colors. Adore

28:09

them, but they those have no flavor. This is a little This

28:11

is a little bit of a like barbecue, a little

28:13

barbecue. You're really into these texture

28:16

is awesome, Like, look how beautiful they're kind

28:18

of crazy looking. The reveal squid.

28:22

All right, now we're gonna go to number four. You

28:25

guys, canna hear me sniffing potato?

28:28

Yeah, it's like a sour creaming on your bet. No,

28:32

wo oh, I like it.

28:35

It's coming at me from all angles. It's

28:37

like thick cut. It's roughly with

28:40

like a sabby horse rats

28:42

situation, but there's a little sour note backing

28:45

up on the other side, on on the side of the tongue. They're

28:47

like sour cream with sabby or sour cream horse radish

28:49

or something awesome. Wait a minute, where

28:53

these coming from? Sabby ranch ranch?

28:57

You guys, that is a big

29:00

covery. Okay, we got another ruffled one

29:02

with green specks. Oh I spelled dill. That's

29:07

that's good stuff. That's the money right there. What's

29:09

the dill pickle chip? It's

29:12

good. It's like a deep fried pickle.

29:15

What's the name of it. It's just dill pickle.

29:17

It tasted like that's my dam right

29:20

there, right there. I'm just gonna you just keep

29:22

those right there. Oh boy, that was a surprise

29:24

for everybody, anybody. That was really

29:26

something midday snack. Well, thank you so much

29:29

for coming by. Thank you, Mark, glad you put up with

29:31

the chip tasting. I love I

29:33

didn't love all the chips, but I love the chip taste.

29:35

Thank you for having me, Thank you, thank you well.

29:38

I enjoyed talking about flavor. I hope you guys

29:40

got something out of it. I'm excited to share

29:42

the rest of the season with you. We're going to explore

29:45

food culture from every angle, from the hidden

29:47

messages you never knew were on the menu to

29:49

what happens behind the scenes at restaurants.

29:51

Plus, we're gonna be joined by some of my closest

29:54

friends in the industry, like Marcus Samuelson,

29:56

Melissa Clark, Jonathan Waxman, and

29:58

so many more. Also Bob

30:00

Holmes, Gayl Simmons, thank you so much for

30:02

being here with me today. I'll see you next

30:04

week. Food

30:08

three six is a production of I Heart Radio

30:10

and I'm your host, Mark Murphy. A

30:13

very special thanks to Emily Carpet, My director

30:15

of Communications, and producers Nikki

30:17

Etre and Christina Everett. Mixing

30:19

and music by Anna Stump and recording

30:21

help from Julian Weller and Jacopo

30:24

Benzel. Thank you to Bethan Michaeluso

30:26

and Kara Weissenstein for handling research.

30:29

Food through sixty is executive produced

30:31

by manguest Head ticket or for

30:33

more podcasts on my heart Radio, visit

30:35

the i heart Radio app, Apple podcast,

30:38

or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.