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before you know it, you're dancing in Tokyo. Wait,

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I'm sorry, you can sit there and look and

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play with all your silly machines as much as you like.

0:40

Is Gascon going to have a crack? He is, you

0:42

know.

0:43

Oh, he fell! Brilliant!

0:48

But, gee, he's round the goalkeeper,

0:51

he's done it! Absolutely

0:53

incredible! He launched himself

0:57

six feet into the crowd and

0:59

Kung Fu kicked a supporter

1:02

who was without a shadow of a

1:04

doubt giving him lip. Oh, I say! It's amazing! He

1:08

does it time and time and time

1:11

again. Crank up the music! Charge your

1:13

glass! This nation

1:16

is going to dance all night!

1:19

The end of an era for football cliches

1:21

royalty. The Premier League pure

1:24

referees names 11. Just who

1:26

is and isn't allowed to be included in the

1:28

spine of a team? Did Frank Lampard

1:30

really guide Chelsea to 12th place?

1:33

Finding yourself in the opposition box. A

1:35

deep data dive into footballers on reality

1:37

TV shows. The waltzing through

1:40

book end of season rallying cry. A

1:42

pre-engraved FA Cup. And Kizhi's

1:44

Premier League predictions revisited.

1:47

Brought to your ears by The Athletic. This

1:49

is Football Clichés.

1:53

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 262 of

1:55

Football Clichés. I'm

1:58

Adam Hurray, the reigning champion.

1:59

of the Football Cliché's quiz. And

2:02

with me on the very last adjudication

2:04

panel of 2022-23 is, first

2:07

of all, Charlie Eccleshire. How are you doing? I'm

2:09

all right, yeah. How are you? I'm fine, I'm fine.

2:11

Thank you very much. How do we play this,

2:13

Charlie? Do we call this the end of series

2:15

one? 262 episodes.

2:16

Yeah, I

2:18

know. Other podcasts do divide up into

2:21

series for seasons, which we've never

2:23

really done that, have we? I think just carry it on as one

2:25

long thing.

2:26

Fine. Bit of a break, never

2:28

hurt anyone. Yeah, we'll be back later this summer,

2:31

somehow,

2:32

somewhere. I tell you who won't be back

2:34

though. It's your partner on the adjudication panel

2:36

today, Charlie, David Walker.

2:39

It is your final episode of Football

2:41

Cliché's today. We bid you goodbye today

2:43

after 129 caps,

2:46

a living legend of the cliche's pod. How

2:48

do you feel? I feel quite sad, really, after

2:50

hearing that. 129 caps. Yeah, well, I'm leaving the athletic.

2:55

Wednesday will be my last day at the athletic,

2:57

so unfortunately, at this juncture, I have to depart

3:00

the cliche's pod, which

3:02

is

3:02

terribly sad for me, hopefully sad for

3:04

the listeners. I don't know whether to edit in some

3:06

sort of sad music here afterwards

3:09

or not. I'll take care of that.

3:11

Don't worry. Maybe I could be like

3:13

in a Jeff Stelling-esque

3:16

turn of events, you'll struggle to find a replacement

3:18

for me and I'll just come back for the new season

3:20

like nothing ever happened. Fingers crossed. Fingers

3:23

crossed, Charlie. That would be great, frankly. Yeah. I feel

3:25

like in Neighbours as well, people would quite often come

3:27

back or they'd be gone for, or

3:29

maybe played by a different actor. That's what I was going to say.

3:31

I wouldn't get Dave back,

3:32

but with a different face and a voice. I don't

3:34

know what the rules are on that, but also, I mean, anyone who's

3:36

been to one of my live shows would have heard Adam introduce

3:39

David as David without whom everything would fall apart Walker.

3:41

It's a terrifying prospect. Really, really is

3:44

not having you on this podcast. Huge boots to fill,

3:46

Dave. Huge boots to fill. But

3:48

let's crack on. We've got business to take care of on the

3:50

education panel and we kick off with Andrew

3:53

Little, who has a bone to pick with something

3:55

that Dave told us recently about his Sunday

3:58

league administration that they were doing. been

4:00

an asterisk next to a team's name because they'd

4:02

been deducted points for fielding a ringer.

4:04

Well, Andrew Little writes in and

4:06

says, Just wanted to offer some further insight into

4:08

the asterisk in Dave's league. I play

4:11

in the same league for Wandsworth Warriors. I

4:13

wouldn't describe the play in question as a ringer. The

4:15

lad was banned for six months after chasing our

4:17

team round with a corner flag after being sent

4:19

off. In the end, armed police turned up and

4:22

a player became known as Stabby Bloke. Bloody

4:24

hell. Wow. Six months for that. The

4:27

information I had previously was

4:29

told to me in good faith. I had no reason to not

4:32

believe it. But I can't believe this

4:34

story. I have heard of similar

4:36

incidents within our league, very

4:39

isolated occasions here and there, but Christ,

4:41

a corner flag. I know. So this

4:43

player was banned and then

4:45

played despite being banned is what happened. So

4:47

he wasn't a ringer as such. That's what that sounds

4:49

like. Sounds like it. He must have played while being

4:52

banned. That must be the points

4:54

deduction situation. But he would

4:56

have got more if he'd actually bet on the game, I would assume.

4:59

Next up, loyal

4:59

listener Elizabeth Barnard has got in touch

5:02

with some stellar content. She shared

5:04

with me the group chats, pure referee

5:06

names, 11 of current Premier League players.

5:10

Charlie, here's the back five for you in gold. Dean

5:12

Henderson. Bit more lines, Mini? Maybe

5:15

not. Yeah, maybe goalkeeper is quite is

5:17

quite a narrow pool. It's a

5:20

is it a slightly too interesting name? I'm not sure.

5:22

I don't think it is actually, to be honest. A back four

5:25

of Andrew Robertson, Michael Keene,

5:28

Craig Dawson, which is basically

5:29

Craig Dawson. And

5:34

slight wild card here, name wise, Ryan

5:36

Fredericks. I'm not I'm not on board with

5:38

that one. I don't know. There is there does tend to be one

5:41

sort of wild card with a slightly more interesting name

5:43

each year. I mean, isn't

5:45

there an Andrew Robertson who works for the PGMOL

5:48

or something? I don't know. Maybe I've imagined

5:50

that. Yeah. It feels like there should be

5:52

or it could be. In midfield, Dave, Stuart

5:54

Armstrong, Oliver Skip and

5:57

Adam Forshaw. Forshaw, I'm not so

5:59

sure about. but the other two, yeah, definitely.

6:01

And a front three Charlie of Anthony Gordon,

6:04

yes. Patrick Banford, yeah.

6:07

And David Brooks, which is- David Brooks,

6:09

I think he's a VAR. I mean, I know

6:11

they are also referees, but I also think the VAR

6:13

of course is David Brooks. Under fire, VAR

6:16

David Brooks, yeah. Solid

6:18

effort, I give that a solid seven out of 10, Elizabeth

6:21

and Co,

6:22

well done for that. And very original stuff

6:24

as well, glad to have it. Right, let's dig

6:26

into this. This is Sky Sports News Charlie, reviewing

6:29

the relative success of Newcastle signings

6:31

this season. I think you look at three in

6:33

particular, Kieran Trippier, Dan Byrne,

6:36

Nick Pope, that's the spine of this Newcastle

6:38

team. And as you said before, the defence was

6:40

such a key part of the start of the season. They

6:43

form the backbone to success and you wonder

6:45

how much Bruno Guillemerache is worth now,

6:47

40 million pounds. Jamie writes in Charlie says, can

6:50

a spine of a team be two fullbacks

6:52

and a keeper? How strict should we be

6:54

with spine? Definitely not. That is

6:56

not the definition of a spine. I know

6:58

it isn't. One final

7:00

flourish for literally Dave. Okay,

7:03

well that's fine, yeah. Yeah,

7:05

they're not like regular fullbacks. I do

7:07

kind of like, I know it's very rogue

7:10

doing this to say that it's a spine. And obviously,

7:13

technically it's not, but they are, you

7:15

know, like Dan Byrne, he's kind of

7:17

more feels like a centre back than

7:19

a full back. I know he doesn't actually play there. He's an absurd defence

7:22

of it, I have to say. Just slightly

7:24

playing devil's advocate. And Kieran Trippier

7:26

obviously is like, if he's not the actual captain,

7:29

then he's very much feels like the de facto captain

7:31

and leader of that team. So

7:33

I think it's a stretch, but

7:35

I kind of know what he's getting at. Those

7:37

feel like three of the leaders of the team anyway.

7:40

I think a slightly more appropriate

7:42

word would have been they form the bedrock.

7:46

I would have lied, bedrock would have been good.

7:48

Because you're saying the same thing, but you just, you can't

7:50

get away with spine with,

7:52

you know, they're the shoulder blades as opposed

7:54

to the spine, I guess. The ankles, I

7:56

don't know. Or the hips, I

7:58

don't know, maybe. Yeah, I mean.

7:59

pelvis. In some mitigation

8:02

Charlie, two very influential players

8:04

at fullback there and you're allowed a goalkeeper. Goalkeepers

8:07

are allowed in a spine right? Yeah I

8:09

think so. Yeah I think they're an optional

8:11

extra you don't have to have a golker in your spine do you?

8:14

But yeah but they're the coccyx.

8:16

Yeah yeah yeah sort of undersung

8:19

aren't they the coccyx but you know evolution.

8:22

But how many, what's the minimum

8:24

number of players in the spine Dave? Two or three?

8:27

Like could you have two players in the spine or would it have to be three?

8:29

I think,

8:31

I think three, I think ideally you want you

8:33

want a defender midfielder striker. But does

8:35

it have to be? Like I think three

8:37

is definitely the minimum Charlie but could you

8:39

mix a match? Could you have two defenders

8:42

and a midfielder as a spine? It

8:44

has to be all the way up. Yeah

8:47

you might I mean because often you're about it it depends because you talk

8:49

about like they're missing the spine of their team is what

8:51

I most think of spine being used.

8:54

Yeah. And I think you could slightly retrofit

8:56

that. If it was like two centre backs and you're holding midfielder

8:58

I think you could say they're missing the spine of their team.

9:01

What about a goalkeeper centre back extension midfielder

9:03

if you get the striker? Yeah yeah I think that's what I was

9:05

going for. Yeah I think you can have three of the four,

9:08

definitely have three of the four and and it could skip

9:10

a skipper vertebra as well.

9:12

Like you could have goalkeeper defend a striker. If

9:14

it was someone like Harry Kane who is very talismanic

9:17

and not just a goal scorer I think that

9:19

would be acceptable. But in summary Charlie

9:21

no wingers allowed in a spine. Yeah. Unless

9:24

they were very unusual and sort of almost

9:26

played like a central midfielder in some ways. In

9:28

a bit like I'm saying Howard Byrne he has

9:30

quite centre back energy even if he's not actually a

9:32

centre back. I know exactly what you mean. Yeah and

9:34

Trippia does other stuff like as you say

9:36

captain set piece taker lots of very central

9:39

ones. A clean dressing room as well.

9:41

Yeah yeah okay interesting. Delighted

9:44

with this timing this is our last episode for

9:46

a while but this is an absolutely genre

9:49

defining whisper it but. Dave

9:51

from The Guardian whisper it but Scotland

9:53

is on the verge of becoming a space superpower.

9:56

Yes! How

9:59

could you be?

9:59

more whisper it than that. I

10:02

don't know where the context is. I'm curious to know why

10:04

it's a whisper. Have they had a lot of false dawns

10:06

before? Have Scotland come close,

10:08

but sort of lost to NASA in the final or something?

10:11

They've just been quietly getting on with their space business

10:13

in the background. That's a job they've done up there after

10:15

something. The subhead reads, Dave,

10:17

despite the demise of Virgin Orbit,

10:19

the UK's first spaceports should open

10:22

in 2024, complete with a what

10:24

looks like an artist's impression image of a rocket being

10:27

fired off a very, very small

10:29

Hebridean island by the looks of it. Fair

10:31

play to them. I don't know. So it does sound like a tax

10:33

breaks thing. Who knows? It has been an element of false dawn

10:35

than it sounds like in that sense. Yeah. Was

10:38

there a golden age? Did they have loads of great

10:40

astronauts in the 70s? Well, Cape Canaveral

10:42

just been, they had stranglehold over it all, haven't

10:44

they? Kazak Starm big in the game, if

10:47

you're a Cosmonaut fan for

10:49

your sins. Anyway, it's time for For My

10:51

Sins Corner. Dave, Charlie's going

10:53

to do you no favours here, by the way. Yeah,

10:55

this is going to be like a testimonial. This is huge.

10:58

Yeah, exactly. Don't let him tap it in.

10:59

Don't let him get a penalty. You know the drill. I'm

11:02

going to play you a clip from, from the, from

11:04

national media. The phrase for my sins

11:06

will be uttered.

11:07

You just have to guess when it'll be. Anyway, this one comes

11:10

from Five Riddim and

11:12

Mike Walker. It's from BBC Radio 5

11:14

Live on Saturday. If Chelsea don't

11:17

slip up, there's nothing that Manchester

11:19

United can do. So we'll talk about the WSL title race,

11:21

much more to come on the playoff final and the battle, battle

11:23

down the bottom of the Premier League. But our big

11:25

commentary this afternoon comes from Twickenham. The Premiership

11:28

final, Saracen's sale. It kicks

11:30

off at three and Sonya McLucklin is there.

11:32

And I'm standing, Steve, right

11:34

next to the Premiership trophy, which I just tried

11:37

to lift up for my sins and failed

11:39

literally. But Matt Dawson and Chris Jones look to

11:41

me as if to say, come on, you can, you

11:43

can do better than that. I'm sure that Owen

11:45

Farrell or John O'Rosse.

11:47

We both went too early. Yeah. Just,

11:49

just too early. It was the beat before. I

11:52

mean, trying to,

11:53

trying to sort of tap into your mindsets

11:56

as you did it. Charlie, I think, I

11:58

think it felt like the most logical point of.

11:59

that clip to say it. But even then,

12:02

standing next to a trophy for your sins didn't feel right

12:04

did it? Yeah, I know. In retrospect,

12:07

if I could do it all again, I'd do

12:10

it very differently. The only thing is, is there a bit

12:12

of bad luck about standing next to a

12:14

trophy? I think that in the split

12:16

second that I had to think about, isn't

12:18

that, you know, don't touch a trophy is bad luck.

12:21

Maybe. I mean, not for her. She's a BBC

12:23

radio reporter. True. I don't really see what the

12:25

ramifications would be. Dave, Charlie says if

12:27

he could do it all over again, he

12:29

reckons he'd nail it. But to be honest, the end

12:32

result of this, the four my sins was her saying

12:34

she tried to lift it for our sins. I

12:36

think it's one of the least four my sinsy situations we've

12:38

been confronted with. If I'd waited, I don't

12:41

think I would have gone in there. A challenging

12:43

one to end with. Yeah, it's not

12:45

quite the right phrase. I'm trying to think what would be

12:47

more appropriate for that. Because it's almost like. Well,

12:49

maybe she wasn't allowed to do it. She's not really allowed to touch trophies,

12:52

are you? Because there's always a ridiculous bouncers

12:54

with wine gloves standing by like a head

12:57

snooker referee not letting you do anything.

12:59

So

12:59

the weird protectiveness of trophies,

13:02

pathetic, pathetic behaviour.

13:04

Right. Next up, the worst kept secret in

13:06

football, I guess, Charlie, is the

13:08

appointment of Marisia Pochettino as Chelsea's

13:10

new manager. The BBC Sport report

13:13

went as follows. Chelsea have appointed former Tottenham

13:15

and Paris Saint-Germain boss Marisia Pochettino as their

13:17

new manager. The Argentine 51 begins his new

13:19

role on 1st July 2023 on a two

13:21

year contract with an option for further year. He takes

13:23

over from interim boss Frank Lampard, who

13:26

guided Chelsea to 12th in the Premier League.

13:28

Are we are we giving Lampard guided? Or

13:31

is one win? That's not a guided.

13:33

It's

13:34

not a guided in any way. No matter

13:36

how you slice it, Dave, this is not a guiding, is

13:38

it? No, because nothing about his tenure

13:40

suggests that he's been in control of the

13:43

situation in any respect. So

13:45

it's not it's definitely not a guiding. I don't

13:47

think there's an alternative here, actually. Well, that's

13:49

the problem because it was so bad, but obviously they

13:51

don't want to get into how bad it was just there. I mean,

13:53

you could just say who took or who led.

13:56

I mean, I know led also sounds wrong because there's

13:58

obviously been like a leadership vacuum.

13:59

but is Took just sort of vague

14:02

enough and factual enough? Because that's all you're

14:04

really wanting to say. Would you say- Took,

14:06

it still implies an upwards directory to

14:08

me. I would have gone with something like whose

14:10

second spell in charge ended- With

14:13

a 12th place finish? With a 12th place finish, something

14:15

like that. Because often you go with left with,

14:17

but I don't know if you leave at the end of a season the same way

14:19

because you're not, Pochino won't be picking them up in 12th. Yeah,

14:22

that's right. That would be the default, I think. Yeah,

14:25

you're right. Yeah, left them in 12th, but the season's

14:27

over so it doesn't work. Agreed. Shame.

14:29

Now, email came in from

14:32

Maximilian Campbell, who has,

14:34

I'm delighted to say,

14:36

brought back to my attention the Sing Song

14:38

Seriare commentator. He's back.

14:41

He says, not auditioning for Les Miserables

14:43

anymore, but just as preposterous. This

14:45

is genuinely some of the best intonation I've

14:47

ever heard. I put it all together in one little clip for you. This

14:49

is from the illustrious

14:52

surroundings of a nil-nil draw between Lecce

14:55

and Spezia. Unzola

14:57

brings Spezia forward. Unzola.

15:01

Esposito. Straight at goal.

15:05

Esposito's attempt.

15:08

Falcone, unworried. In

15:10

it comes. Free header.

15:13

Unzola. Aguadillo. Through

15:16

the legs. Aguadillo.

15:20

Ampedo.

15:21

Eggdoll. This sounds

15:23

like an old computer game. Yes.

15:26

Where it isn't quite fully joined up

15:28

and you get weirdly pronounced names

15:31

just chucked in. Barry Davis on actress

15:33

soccer. Shira. Shira!

15:36

Exactly. Honestly,

15:39

absolutely fascinating, Dave. And it's got to the point now where

15:41

I don't dislike it. I mean, it's a nil-nil

15:43

draw between Lecce and Spezia. You might as well jazz

15:45

it up. Was it the last game of the season? No,

15:48

don't think so. But we're in

15:50

that territory. Maybe he's on the beach.

15:51

He's just thought I'll have a bit

15:53

of fun here. Yeah. He's

15:56

really taking the handbrake off. Well, they are,

15:58

they are colourful.

15:59

names Charlie I guess you've got to let

16:02

him off a bit. It does sound like he's just

16:04

really enjoying himself which is great,

16:06

like it sounds like he's doing it with a smile on his face

16:09

slightly knowingly. In a booth somewhere

16:11

let's face it so yeah got to enjoy

16:13

it somehow. Former cliche's guest Josh

16:15

Pugh tweeted this the other day Dave, just

16:18

heard a football commentator say that Ben Mee has found

16:20

himself in the opposition's box,

16:23

great to see people reaching self-enlightenment even

16:25

in the midst of a sporting contest, so refreshing.

16:27

Setting the joke aside it did make me think

16:29

that only centre backs can

16:32

find themselves in an opposition

16:34

18-yard box as if they weren't there by

16:37

design. It's just like oh god what the hell

16:39

am I doing here? Is it kind of nosebleed related?

16:41

Is it most often

16:43

deployed when a centre back has

16:45

gone up for a corner or a free kick, the ball's gone

16:48

out and they've stayed up and they've

16:50

come back in and they sort of lingered around they're like oh

16:53

you know they're still there and a chance is presented

16:55

to them, not necessarily like a header the ball might fall

16:57

to them in a position where you would want a striker

16:59

to be and they find themselves in the

17:02

penalty area. Completely agree. You can

17:04

I think you might have it from that I mean that scenario

17:07

is where people are going to find themselves in weird positions

17:09

you might have it something like if say a goal

17:11

then went in from like a second phase from

17:13

a corner or something you'd be like and he's found himself

17:16

on the inside left channel which wouldn't necessarily

17:18

I think that could even be like the wrong fullback

17:20

or something and it you know how it

17:23

looks really weird when a fullback

17:25

who's taken a corner is then almost having to

17:27

play like a winger who's cutting into

17:29

their good foot.

17:29

There's nothing weird about it from a corner obviously

17:32

we're used to swinging corners but it looks so

17:34

weird when Trent or someone is on the left

17:36

hand side there's just something wrong about it

17:38

and that will come from a sort of set

17:40

piece that's been only partially cleared. Yeah

17:42

I think this element of chaos is crucial here Dave

17:44

because you know if a striker makes

17:47

a very deliberate crafty run to fool

17:49

his marker and then creates space for themselves

17:51

to nod at home that isn't finding themselves

17:54

somewhere because they've done it all themselves it was all purely

17:57

by design I think finding yourself somewhere

17:59

is purely

17:59

purely chaos theory situation. And

18:02

that's why it suits kind of clueless centre

18:04

backs with their noses bleeding. Yeah,

18:06

I agree.

18:06

Maybe late in a game, if they've

18:08

just like gone on a mad sort of joined in

18:11

in a counter attack sort of situation. Did

18:13

Paul Staltieri find himself in

18:15

the six-yard box for that winner against West

18:18

Ham? Yeah, that's a good shout. You're

18:20

right, Equicher, bloody hell. Great

18:23

stuff. Well, he popped up. I

18:25

guess it's more of a popping up than a fan himself.

18:28

Yeah, I think they're natural bedfellows

18:30

popping up and finding yourself.

18:32

Although popping up does imply a little

18:34

bit of crafty movement, doesn't it? Maybe. Johnny

18:36

on the spot. You can't be Johnny on the spot and find yourself,

18:38

I don't think necessarily. Depends if you score

18:41

or not, I suppose. Brighton against Manchester

18:43

City last week, they secured European

18:45

football for next season, Charlie. Europa

18:48

League,

18:48

no less. Commentator James Fielden got in touch

18:50

and says, Brighton playing the Europa League theme on the

18:53

PA system after qualification is surely a

18:55

first. I saw some blowback about this. Some

18:57

people saying it was tin pot

19:00

behaviour. I mean, I think it's part of an extended

19:02

theme of PA systems getting

19:04

a little bit bolder this season and just trying

19:06

to be part of the equation a little bit too

19:08

much. But I think this specifically, I've got no beef

19:10

with. I think it's quite charming. I don't mean

19:12

that in a patronising way, although I slightly do. Yeah,

19:15

I wasn't aware of that and I haven't seen that before. I think

19:17

it is quite a good idea. I mean, I wonder how people would feel

19:20

if it was done for the Champions League. People would probably...

19:22

Because I think the Europa League, because it's

19:25

more often than not been a competition

19:27

played for by teams who want to be in the Champions League and therefore

19:29

it's a bit of a sort of gag anthem as

19:31

well. Like, ah, you're in the Europa League and you've

19:33

got to listen to this silly... And

19:36

it's ironically enjoyed by a lot of people

19:38

as well, which I think lends it an air of acceptability.

19:41

Dave, if someone had played, say Newcastle, had they

19:43

played the Champions League theme after securing

19:45

Champions League qualification, that would feel

19:48

a bit...

19:48

You haven't got the level of irony there, have you? No, that

19:50

would turn too many heads. And that would

19:52

be too easy a target for... When

19:55

they go out early. You know, the celebration

19:57

police to get stuck in. That's true. I

20:00

think a lot of people wouldn't be able to pick out what the Europa

20:02

League theme is. So they might not even have noticed

20:04

if you're in the stadium. Yeah, just a piece of after-game

20:06

music that they thought was going to be dramatic. Yeah, it

20:08

could work. I think Brighton have definitely celebrated

20:11

getting to the Europa League more than I've ever seen

20:13

any other team. Yeah. And maybe that's fair enough

20:15

because of where they've come from. Yeah.

20:18

But I sort of like it in a way. Why not?

20:21

Just, yeah, it is a big achievement for them. So just

20:23

go for it. You shouldn't be ashamed of it. Now, I

20:25

agree. But I think, Charlie, you

20:27

have to be careful though, because Europa League

20:29

probably fine,

20:29

given the factors we've

20:32

discussed. But if you did play the Champions League theme,

20:34

it really does

20:36

ooze kind of 18,000 Swiss

20:39

franc fine from UEFA, doesn't it? But

20:41

you're not being allowed to play it. It's

20:44

easy. I've only improved occasions. They

20:47

have to play Zadok the priest just to get round the

20:49

copyright. Yeah,

20:51

Tony Britton, the composer, completely

20:54

publicly exposing him as a fraud. I

20:56

don't know. Where do you draw the line though, Dave? Where do

20:58

you get little kids to wave a little ball kind

21:00

of canvas

21:01

in the centre circle? Do you either have the rights

21:03

to that? Maybe you're Britton should have done that.

21:06

For one game only, you sell Amstel and

21:09

Continental tyres after the game.

21:11

Yeah, like inexplicably shut off the first three

21:14

rows of your seats. Yeah,

21:16

yeah. I think there is an element of, I mean, Britton

21:18

obviously made it Europa League specific there.

21:21

Yeah. But more broadly, there's a sort of more

21:23

element of we're all going on European tour about

21:25

it, isn't there? That's kind

21:28

of what you're celebrating, the fact that we're in Europe, we

21:30

get to go and have some away days. The competition,

21:32

I think Villa were doing that. Obviously, Villa

21:35

obviously, you don't really want to celebrate the conference

21:37

league in the same way, do you? But you do want to celebrate

21:39

the fact that you're in Europe. Well,

21:41

I remember in Dream Team, fictional,

21:43

beloved TV show, when Heartjust United qualified

21:46

for Europe, either it was the game they did it or it was prior

21:48

to them playing their first European game. And

21:51

we're encouraging fans to bring their passports

21:53

in celebration of our European journey,

21:55

which always felt to me, would feel

21:57

really risky. You don't want to bring a passport.

21:59

a football match. I mean, I don't know if they were, you can make a giant

22:02

fake one. Yeah, maybe it was maybe it was more encouraging

22:04

fake ones than actual ones, but that that would that

22:06

would feel like that would preoccupy you during a

22:09

game. You have a few beers got your passport

22:11

in your pocket. A fan could throw it on the pitch at the end

22:13

as well. Be great.

22:14

If they if they lose that game. Soddy,

22:17

I'm not coming now. I got

22:20

a different instead. Oh, how this unraveled.

22:22

I'm not sure. Next up. This is honestly

22:24

superb. This came from listener David. This

22:27

level of engagement is what I want for the cliches pod.

22:29

It's in perpetuity. He says,

22:31

I was very interested in your recent podcast discussion

22:34

on the quality of football as appearing in reality TV

22:36

shows. I must take issue with the idea presented

22:39

by Dave that Strictly Come Dancing and I'm a

22:41

Celebrity managed to book a similar quality of footballer.

22:43

Strictly footballers are quite clearly superior

22:45

to I'm a celeb footballers. The eye test

22:47

backs this up, but I've also with

22:50

the help of Wikipedia dug into

22:52

the data. Great. No

22:54

phrase fills me more with joy than that.

22:56

Here we go. Footballers to appear on Strictly Come

22:59

Dancing, Peter Schmeichel, John Barnes, Peter

23:01

Shilton, Robbie Savage, David James, Alex

23:03

Scott and Tony Adams. Average club

23:05

appearances 746. Average international appearances 90. This

23:09

is like top trumps. This is seriously

23:12

good stuff, Charlie. Like this is a high bar.

23:14

That's, yeah, I said

23:16

this. I thought Strictly was a decent calibre.

23:19

I mean, can't argue with this metric Dave either as

23:21

we head into the comparison. Footballers

23:24

to appear on I'm a celeb. John Fashionew,

23:26

Neil Ruddock, Rodney Marsch, Jimmy Bullard,

23:29

Kieran Dyer, Wayne Bridge, Dennis Wise,

23:31

Harry Redknapp, Ian Wright, David Ginola

23:34

and Jill Scott. Average club appearances 456.

23:37

Average international appearances 28. It's a stark as

23:41

you could get. Yeah, I'll give it

23:43

to him. Yeah, I don't know. There was, you know,

23:45

there was a bit of pedigree there in the I'm a

23:47

celeb lineup, but I get the overall vibe

23:49

is very different. Yeah, I know what

23:51

you mean. Statesman for Strictly, clowns

23:54

for I'm a celeb, basically, that's

23:57

what it is. Listener David continues. He got

23:59

some caveats to the team.

23:59

data Charlie says as they are not predominantly

24:02

known as footballers I have not included in the

24:04

data either Nikki Byrne of Westlife 11

24:07

appearances for Cove Ramblers in the League of Island

24:09

or Mark Wright one sub appearance for Crawleytown

24:12

in League 2 which I think is right. That's

24:14

good. Right to do. Very very diligent

24:16

stuff. He goes further Dave based

24:18

on this data based on his XA data

24:21

he says we can expect to see either Michael Owen or

24:23

Brian Robson on Strictly at some point soon.

24:27

I can't see Brian Robson on Strictly. I

24:29

think

24:29

his time may have come and gone but Michael

24:32

Owen would do it. Yeah I think Owen's

24:34

a great shout. Yeah and I'm a celeb

24:37

Charlie we can expect appearances from Jamie

24:39

Vardy or Phil Jones. Honestly

24:41

yes.

24:42

Has Rebecca Vardy been on? Was she

24:44

in it or not? Am I just sort of confusing

24:46

that with someone else? I can't find a picture of him. Sounds about

24:49

right. Was Killeen on? I

24:52

don't think Killeen's done. Probably just making that up

24:54

completely making that up but I'm sure

24:56

he'd be on the list he'd definitely

24:58

be a target if he retires this summer or

25:01

as soon as he does retire in the next few years if

25:03

you're I'm a celeb you're definitely gonna go for

25:05

him. Rebecca Vardy did I'm a celeb in 2017. There

25:08

you go. There you go. Finally Dave,

25:10

listener David says I haven't delved into the Celebrity

25:13

Big Brother records because even

25:14

I won't stoop that low. I

25:17

think Danny Drinkwater would go on Celebrity Big

25:19

Brother. Yeah that I see what you mean kind

25:21

of with a bit of a backstory to say about

25:23

why his career fizzled out and then there's going

25:25

to be a very convenient moment you know sat

25:28

around the pool or something where

25:29

he talks about why it happened. Yeah

25:31

yeah. Would Ag Bonnohore do Celebrity Big

25:34

Brother? Yeah. Sort of imagine that.

25:36

Yeah any kind of Barclays era. I think

25:38

I mean I think he's not with his sort

25:40

of last year and a bit on Talk Sport

25:43

it's sort of kind of brought him back into the into

25:45

the consciousness. I think he's out of the question for I'm a

25:47

celeb. Jamie

25:50

O'Hara would do I'm a celeb. I think Jamie O'Hara

25:52

could do I'm a celeb. I don't think Ag Bonnohore quite has

25:54

the profile. But they could better play

25:56

it than O'Hara. Footballers are easy to market for

25:59

these programmes because it's like...

25:59

He swapped his boots for the hiking

26:02

boots or something. He swapped

26:04

his captain's armband for a hammock or something bullshit

26:06

like that.

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Oh, look at that!

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That is wonderful! Brought

29:02

to your ears by The Athletic. This

29:04

is Football Clichés. Next

29:06

one comes from Alex Nedvedek. I

29:08

was watching the newest episode of Ted Lasso for

29:10

my sins, and commentator Arlo White

29:13

has just said this. Is this the

29:15

equaliser? No! A swashbuckling

29:18

save by the MAD Canadiens! Man,

29:21

damn, he's been good today. Open and

29:23

shut case for me, this, Charlie. You

29:25

can't have a swashbuckling save, can you? No,

29:27

it's a very TV or football-in-film

29:31

style thing that would be said. Just

29:33

like overly engineered and not really

29:35

true to life.

29:36

Swashbuckling is an offensive move,

29:39

it's not a defensive tactic. It's gallivanting

29:41

upfield, isn't it? I think the only way I would have accepted

29:43

swashbuckling save is if he'd sort of swung down

29:46

from the rafters on a rope and then stopped

29:48

the ball going in. René

29:51

Higuita's scorpion kick was

29:53

arguably a swashbuckling save.

29:56

Or if he caught it and then ran upfield with the

29:58

ball at his feet, like Higuita.

29:59

Hegita was want to do, so

30:02

Hegita very much the most swashbuckling

30:04

goalkeeper. It could work. Alex Nevidek

30:06

says surely this can't be allowed, surely Arlo White

30:08

knows better. I feel like I'm going insane. Just

30:11

read the words on the script mate. Yep. That's

30:14

your job. Yeah, don't blame Arlo

30:16

White. He says what he's told to say. Right, next up

30:18

this came from the athletics Alexander Abnos. This

30:21

is from St. Louis versus Vancouver

30:23

in MLS. Max Brettos

30:26

on commentary.

30:27

Louven

30:30

hits it nicely. Oh!

30:35

Ultima go to Sososuio, Edward

30:37

Louven. Hit that

30:40

one from the Mississippi River.

30:43

One settle, St. Louis City.

30:49

I mean that is just absolutely

30:52

ridiculous. There's no context to

30:54

tap into here, Charlie. It is just absurd.

30:56

I mean Dave will know better than me but that

30:58

sounds quite like wrestling commentary. That

31:00

sort of language and just

31:02

general hyperbole. Yeah, I see where you're coming

31:05

from. He's just gone with everything there. All

31:07

of it. He's not holding anything back. Just

31:10

chuck all the lines out in one go. In

31:12

the Huntford context, the athletics, Emily

31:14

Olsen got in touch with Brettos to find out what

31:17

prompted the reference. He says many moons ago

31:19

I was watching David Letterman and he was doing this

31:21

skit on his show. For comedic emphasis

31:23

he said Uch Magooch Sosuio. It

31:26

always stayed with me

31:26

as an expression in large part because of the Phil

31:28

Collins reference. During the goal call when

31:30

the ball was heading in and I was saying ooh that

31:33

expression hit my memory. I ran with it. Not planned,

31:35

just an emotional reaction. I mean I'm

31:38

glad it was kind of an instinctive thing Charlie because you

31:40

can't be that confident that people are going to know what the hell you're talking

31:42

about. Yeah that's pleasing

31:45

in a way that it was just like the moment took

31:47

him. I agree. Right, moving on. Interesting

31:50

poser on Twitter this weekend by Grace Robertson,

31:53

Dave.

31:59

for years like Twitter on a Saturday is just a better version

32:02

of that. Is this a real nail in the coffin

32:04

for the score show? Like does it

32:06

have a healthy future or not? Or is this is Stelling

32:08

leaving just a, you know, an incidental bump in the

32:10

road? Add football cliche summer hiatus

32:12

onto that list. We'll

32:15

be back with a live score show this summer. I

32:18

did see I saw Jules

32:20

breach, I saw her post on Instagram, sort

32:23

of picture of the whole BT Sport

32:25

Score team. I just sort of assumed

32:28

without any knowledge of it that they would just

32:29

come back and do the same thing, but it'd be called TNT.

32:32

Oh, right. Score, final score or something, which maybe

32:35

that's not going to be the case. And obviously there, that

32:37

is a, that is a sort of fork in the road,

32:39

as far as BT Sport and their programming

32:42

is concerned. Whereas Sky, you'd assume it's just

32:44

going to be huge boots to fill as they found

32:46

out last summer when they couldn't find a replacement

32:48

for Jeff. But I mean, surely

32:51

that that's going to, that show is going to come back. You could

32:53

rethink it. You could, you could take the opportunity to

32:55

say, you know what, Jeff's gone. We can't get another

32:57

Jeff. I mean, studio at least like

33:00

do something. I don't know. Charlie, we've discussed

33:02

at length the

33:02

nature of these shows before. I don't want to get stuck into

33:04

that again, but maybe they're kind of, they

33:07

are odd in one way because they're probably ring

33:09

fence from the kind of, you know, are they getting the ratings

33:11

and they're probably not judged on that basis. Cause like, like

33:14

no one cares about the ratings for soccer Saturday.

33:17

Can you imagine? Cause it's probably fairly consistent. Like it's

33:19

never going to go up or down for

33:21

any reason. Is it? I think it may have done

33:23

over the last few years. It certainly feels like

33:25

it used to be such a part of. Well,

33:27

it's, but

33:28

it's the same show every week. That's the thing.

33:30

It's not like a game where there are different quality

33:32

of teams and there's context and you may tune into one.

33:35

Great episode of soccer Saturday. It's

33:37

exactly, it's good, but it's just

33:39

exactly the same every week. So it, it,

33:41

it just exists. But I do,

33:44

I do think the fact that on average,

33:46

the general level of 3PM games

33:48

has got quite a lot worse because

33:51

more games are on TV, more teams play on Thursday.

33:53

So therefore on Sunday, I do think that has made a

33:55

bit of a difference because you used to get quite often

33:57

like bumper Saturday,

33:58

three o'clock.

33:59

of games. That's increasingly rare

34:02

and therefore to sort of sit down and be

34:04

getting updates of pretty medium

34:06

looking games. It does live or die

34:08

by a bumper Premier League Saturday for

34:11

better. I know how democratic soccer Saturday

34:13

is and I love the fact that they cast their nets

34:15

so wide but when you see a proper

34:18

Premier League reporter has been dispatched to Rotherham

34:21

with all due respect, you know it's a week a

34:23

day of fixtures. That's just how it is. I suppose

34:25

we actually you could envisage

34:27

a world maybe in if not

34:29

next

34:29

season in like the near future

34:32

where only the BBC do it because

34:34

they do it because it's kind of a public service thing

34:37

for people that haven't got Sky or don't

34:39

have access to the internet or whatever. You know they just want to watch

34:41

it on their TV on a Saturday. Whereas Sky

34:43

and BT and other commercial companies if they

34:46

decide that actually there's no one watching and we don't need to do

34:48

it we could just do something else and then who knows what happens

34:50

if the old blackout one day gets canned

34:52

then the whole thing's up for grabs isn't it? I suppose ultimately

34:55

whilst the format has its merits

34:57

Charlie as a kind of enduring thing that no

34:59

one's ever going to fall out of love with enough to

35:02

cancel it you don't need three of them I

35:04

guess is the summary. Yeah

35:07

I think that's probably fair. Right

35:09

now it's happened I would like to talk about this

35:12

lesson hypothesis and in reality Charlie

35:14

did Leicester sleepwalk their way

35:16

to relegation because we all talk about it

35:18

before the event but did they actually do it? I think

35:21

they did. I think they quite possibly

35:23

could be on that list of teams. I also

35:25

think they are you know how this thing's

35:28

always said but I just don't think it should be like there's

35:29

always one team that gets you know look

35:32

at because there's always one team that gets sucked in. Sucked

35:34

back in? Did they get sucked back

35:36

in? They were the team because when they

35:38

beat Spurs really handily in

35:40

February and actually looked quite good but they

35:42

were they got very much sucked back in after

35:44

that they went on a terrible run. I'm delighted

35:47

to see that old faithful

35:48

yeah become relevant again I'm really

35:51

chucked with that I never thought about that one. Is sleepwalking

35:53

over the more over the course of the season and the suck

35:55

back in was part of the season? Yeah I think you're right

35:58

yeah yeah getting sucked

35:59

back in is essentially a business end situation.

36:02

Sleepwalking isn't just necessarily your form across

36:04

the season, it's the bigger picture things, the running of the club

36:07

and have they failed to kick on

36:09

from a certain level. Obviously they won the league a few years ago,

36:11

so I think there's a bigger picture element

36:13

to it, Charlie. But what perhaps undermines

36:16

the sleepwalking is they actively try to prevent it.

36:18

They sack their manager and got a new one in and he

36:20

failed to keep them up. But was it too late? Yeah,

36:22

I mean, that's essentially waking yourself up. You are

36:24

awake. They were awake to the possibility

36:27

of it, which I think might undermine it. Yeah, but they did it. I

36:29

think you can still

36:29

use it for sleepwalking because they did it too late,

36:32

the sacking.

36:33

Yeah. If you're sleepwalking and you wake

36:35

up and you've walked into a middle of the road, like

36:37

then that is you've woken up too late.

36:39

He's still here. He's

36:42

not going away just yet. Anyway, right. This

36:45

is a philosophical debate for us. Dave says,

36:48

this came from Nolsey CPFC. He

36:50

says, how exactly can Jacob Murphy

36:52

claim anywhere enough credit for his goal of the season

36:55

contender when it was a one yard tap-in? How

36:57

can it qualify for such an award

37:00

when all the work was done in the assist? This was the Alexander

37:03

EZAC dribble at Goodison Park.

37:05

I mean, it's a fair point, but I suppose you have to look at

37:08

a goal in a holistic way, don't

37:10

you? I think it's okay. But ultimately,

37:12

the lead up to it, be it the assist or

37:15

whatever, you know, like the dribble, has to be otherworldly

37:18

in quality, doesn't it? And this was an exceptional

37:21

run. Yeah. To the point where I remember

37:23

saying this to you, I said, I almost sort of think

37:25

it's kind of goes beyond an assist

37:28

to describe it merely as an assist does

37:30

it a disservice, really, in a way.

37:33

Yeah. He has essentially

37:34

scored the goal, really. Yeah,

37:36

I don't even mean. It is a tricky one, because it's not, if

37:38

you think of other examples, I mean, you know, it's

37:40

the Jack Wilshire one against Norwich, but

37:43

he was heavily involved in the build-up and there was

37:45

the one, it was sort of a series of one twos and skills.

37:48

I can't think of any, I can't think of one where it's an amazing

37:50

run and then having putting

37:52

it on a plate for someone else has got into a goal of the season.

37:55

I think you've cited a really good

37:57

example there, Dave. Think about Wilshire

37:59

goal.

38:00

Charlie is that he crowned a move essentially

38:02

he was the final piece of jigsaw in

38:04

a team move so it's kind of okay to call it the

38:06

Wilshire goal as many people do but you can't call

38:08

it the Jacob Murphy goal can you and

38:10

I think that's practically crucial distinction ultimately

38:13

I'm happy for it to be included in the shortlist because

38:15

it belongs because it's notable should not

38:17

win and goals like that should never win. Yeah

38:19

I had the same thought with that Wilshire goal because I was thinking

38:21

what's another one where it's about the build-up

38:24

rather than the actual goal I mean you're

38:26

right David that Wilshire does play a part in the

38:28

build-up but if he hadn't it wouldn't

38:30

matter like if that had been someone

38:32

else doing all of that stuff it still

38:34

would have been like it's just the fact that it's such

38:36

amazing intricate passing it helps obviously that he's

38:38

been involved because it looks like it's he's sort

38:40

of building it up but it's ultimately just about how

38:43

good that passing and moving is. What

38:45

is weird about this goal and I can't really remember

38:47

a precedent you're right of it's just all

38:50

about the assist the the

38:52

goal is is such a minor part of it

38:54

but I don't know should that mean should that count it out

38:57

maybe. Assist of the season to

38:59

start a new competition on the BBC?

39:01

I'm sure the Premier League have probably got one of those because

39:03

they gave an award for like most powerful shot

39:05

this season. Yeah, Si Ben-Rama won most powerful

39:07

shot and I watched the clip back it's like it's really underwhelming

39:10

like it's like whoof somewhat. Does it go in? Oh

39:12

yeah

39:13

oh yeah it's the most powerful goal

39:15

of the season. Right yeah yeah. Some

39:18

booting into the rosette. Some poor

39:20

bastard on Y scale having to watch 550,000 shots

39:23

across the season. Right back to Sky Sports

39:25

News, listen to Sam, good old listener Sam.

39:27

He says one of those weird transfer news blokes on Sky

39:30

Sports News said Spurs fans will want

39:32

to wrap up Harry Kane in Cotton Wall

39:34

to keep him at the club but wrapping a player in

39:36

Cotton Wall only prevents injury doesn't it? If anything

39:39

he'd be more sellable wrapped in Cotton Wall. Absolutely

39:41

yeah he's ready for delivery. In

39:45

original packaging I love that. But

39:48

yeah Charlie can't argue with the logic

39:50

here Cotton Wall is purely for keeping players

39:52

from injury and not from keeping

39:55

them from being sold. Yeah no you don't

39:57

want to do that. I mean either either what you want

39:59

to do is

39:59

them as unappealing so you want to do the opposite

40:02

almost or you just want

40:04

to kind of hide them away

40:06

in hibernation for the summer obviously

40:09

not normally

40:10

done in a different season hibernation, including the name

40:12

but yeah you kind of you

40:15

just want them as unaware of everything that's going

40:17

on as possible lock him up yeah well

40:19

i was going to say it becomes a bit sinister

40:22

yeah tie him down i mean that's what new contracts

40:25

are new contracts tie players down that's

40:27

where you go yeah there you go

40:28

tie him down sticking on a Spurs theme

40:30

Dave JJ Shaw gets in touch this Leeds fan

40:33

here it's fair to say Lucas Moore a waltzed

40:35

through the Leeds defence for Spurs fourth goal on

40:37

Sunday i just wondered what you and the team think the threshold

40:40

is for the proverbial waltzing does it necessarily

40:42

require the attacker to skip through the epicenter of

40:44

the defence leaving defenders in his wake my

40:46

only fear for this goal Dave is that he did it too quickly

40:49

it's close to a waltzing Charlie isn't it yeah

40:51

i think i think a waltzing there does

40:54

have to be some degree of bad defending

40:56

because it's it's too easy like waltzing

40:58

is is such a is a kind of

41:00

recreational thing

41:02

yeah so the idea that you can just do it through people

41:04

who should be quite aggressively trying to stop you i think

41:06

the context for it was you know textbook

41:09

waltz territory i just fear that Lucas Moro

41:11

was just too quick and too direct for the waltz

41:14

Dave that's my fear for this i see yeah i

41:16

think see what you mean he is going quite quick he's quite he sort

41:18

of changes directions okay

41:20

that helps does that help for a waltz yeah

41:22

yeah definitely like the more skill and jinking

41:25

involved makes it waltzy i just fear for the velocity

41:27

of it what is the ultimate waltz stem king cladsey

41:30

is that a what is that a kind of because he's not

41:32

going

41:32

particularly quickly the the defence wasn't

41:34

errant enough there he actually did he literally was

41:36

a great dribble like that's the problem chris

41:38

marston chris marston's a good shout yeah

41:41

quite waltzy it's higher in the waltzy

41:43

scale but still quite an absurdly

41:45

good john barnes in the american

41:47

art again too much of a solo

41:49

effort not not hapless enough

41:51

on the on the i don't know i can't think

41:53

of a particularly waltzy goal hmm but

41:56

that's why i think linked to what you're saying about being too

41:58

quick because a few

41:59

outpaced. That feels

42:02

less hapless in a way. There's not a huge amount you

42:04

can do once someone... There

42:06

is a goal that comes to mind for me that I think

42:08

actually would qualify as a waltz because the defenders

42:10

kind of just sort of fall over and let him through

42:12

and he just walks through. But I don't, even

42:15

Charlie, I don't think will remember this goal. It

42:17

was Roberto Pereira for Watford

42:19

against Huddersfield in October 2018.

42:23

Definitely. No, don't

42:25

remember that. So all I had in my head

42:27

was Nedemannua versus Chelsea, which

42:29

had

42:29

an element of waltz to it, but maybe it was too good

42:32

a finish at

42:33

the end? Well, it's not quite a scuff finish.

42:35

Oh, okay. Oh, he's got a waltzy then. Yeah, that

42:37

can be one. Because he's got quite low pace. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

42:40

Yeah, dainty. That's also a bit

42:42

of a found himself. Yeah. Because

42:44

he was like, what? And that finish did slightly reflect

42:46

the kind of what are you doing here type

42:49

moment. Agreed, agreed.

42:51

Everton, of course, staved off relegation

42:53

on the final day. Did they stave off?

42:56

You can't stave off on final day. Have I got that wrong? I

42:58

think they did because they were outside the relegation

43:00

zone before it. Not like they were

43:02

in the Belton 3

43:03

and they managed to get out on the last day. They

43:05

were trying to stave off Leeds and Leicester

43:08

and they did that by getting the win. No, you fend off other teams. You

43:10

stave off relegation. Well, yeah, but it's

43:12

the same staves things. Same sort of daily.

43:15

Yeah, fine. Nonetheless,

43:16

Sean Deish had some forthright

43:19

appraisals of their season and how they

43:21

move forward. I think we need to collect it all back

43:23

together, realign it, get us back on board,

43:25

get the fans connected to what we are as a team,

43:28

to what I am as a manager. And

43:30

then there'll be another day when hopefully

43:32

I'll put enough things in place if I get my time

43:34

here when a fashionista can come in and they'll all

43:36

have a beautiful product. But for now, it's something

43:39

that actually needs a rawness, a heartbeat

43:41

that the people of the Everton, in my

43:43

opinion, can grip to and go, right, we have

43:46

got a grip of giving

43:46

every inch of it. A build

43:48

on that. I mean, to

43:51

a certain extent, Dave, I think

43:53

he's right that you need all those intangibles

43:56

to drag Everton

43:57

back into shape and that sort of stuff. But just...

43:59

It just can't help himself. He can't help

44:02

himself. Fashionista. Such a dicey

44:04

thing to say. It is. It is. But

44:06

at the same time I can almost see like some

44:08

people, you know, talking about like actually

44:11

this guy from Serie A, he's a bit

44:13

of a fashionista type actually.

44:15

Like you can sort of see that language working way

44:18

into certain circles within football. You know what

44:20

he means. It's one step away from if

44:23

my name was Sean Diccio. Danny

44:26

Diccio, yeah. Absolutely right.

44:29

Right.

44:29

This seems to be not

44:32

a particularly modern phenomenon, Charlie, but I've seen

44:34

some uproar about this. CG writes

44:37

in and says, where do we stand on people wearing next season's

44:39

kit at the end of the season? Edward Rose

44:41

also says, how do we feel about teams wearing next season's

44:43

kits on the last day? Personally, I think it's disrespectful

44:46

to the day and the outgoing kits.

44:51

I think it's fine. I think it's a nice little tradition.

44:53

It's like looking ahead, isn't it? I remember when this

44:55

started and it's a long time. It's

44:57

like more than 20 years ago. Easily.

44:59

But I remember it feeling like quite a big

45:02

thing. I think it's good. And even

45:04

as a cynical marketing exercise, I think it's good. I

45:06

think it's probably the healthiest piece of club

45:08

commercial activity you can do. Here's the new kit

45:10

for next season. Roll up. Things are going to can

45:12

only get better, that sort of thing. Yeah, I am

45:15

slightly fascinated by the end of the last day

45:17

of the season. It is just amazing for like throwing

45:19

up weird stuff happening. And I think

45:21

that that anything that adds to it ever so slightly

45:23

like

45:24

wearing

45:25

the wrong kit, I think it I think is fine.

45:28

I am fully on board with it if you've got nothing

45:30

to play for. Because then I think

45:33

it's it's it's it adds another layer

45:35

of it adds something, at least to the

45:37

game, for like the new for your home supporters

45:39

or your supporters to sort of go, oh, that's nice.

45:42

I think it's weird if you've like if you're in the

45:44

hunt for the title for anything of significance

45:46

or to stay up. And then that image

45:48

of you. Yes. It will forever

45:51

be enshrined. You'll be in the wrong season's kit

45:53

on that day. It's going to make people get questions

45:55

wrong on football cliches quizzes

45:58

in 2045 or something like that. It's it's.

45:59

Yeah, I mean to a certain extent you

46:02

start to wonder, Dave, why the authorities haven't sort of clamped down

46:04

and said you can't wear the wrong, you can't wear the new kit.

46:07

You've just worn it 37 times and you can't wear a

46:09

different kit. It feels like something they would sort of say,

46:11

we can't do that. It's the integrity of the competition.

46:15

If there's some sort of new technology in the shirts. Absolutely.

46:19

Sweat wicking, your sweat would wick more

46:22

at the end of May.

46:23

It's true. Massive, could be,

46:26

no it's fine margin. At that level, at that level.

46:28

It's always fine margin. Right,

46:31

great Mia Culper from listener Harry

46:33

Gooner here, Charlie, he says, I'm afraid to admit

46:35

that I thought on the beach meant a

46:37

team was fighting on the beaches like D-Day.

46:40

I thought it was said when a team was pinned down and

46:42

being peppered with shots whilst trying to get

46:44

back in the game and slowly gaining back control.

46:47

I think

46:50

the most wrong anyone has ever got a football

46:52

cliche literally means the opposite.

46:53

Yeah. Wow. I

46:56

love that because obviously, whenever one gets things

46:58

wrong, you fill in the gaps in your head and

47:00

although things seem weird, if you believe them

47:02

to be the case, you're like, oh yeah, but I guess that's just

47:04

because of that. He must have had to do a lot of

47:06

that over the years of a team being described on the beach.

47:09

Be like, yeah, I guess that makes sense. Those conversations

47:12

he must have drifted out of going, I'm not having this, this bloke's

47:14

talking rubbish. But Dave, for that to

47:16

be your go-to reference, your go-to image

47:19

for being on a beach seems strange.

47:21

Well, I mean, football and indeed

47:23

much of the sort of political discourse

47:25

is so littered with references to

47:28

war and specifically the Second World War.

47:31

I can sort of see why you might make that

47:33

leap, but maybe I'm being quite generous

47:35

there. But yeah, well, at least he's admitted

47:37

it. Fair enough. Fair play. Finally

47:40

on the adjudication panel then. An absurdly

47:43

over-engineered piece of content came from the FA

47:45

today. The FA Cup trophy, Charlie, has already

47:47

had the word Manchester engraved on it to

47:49

reflect the first ever Manchester-Dobby FA Cup final

47:52

in the competition's 152-year history.

47:53

They've essentially

47:56

been a bit too diligent, they've done a bit of work

47:58

ahead of time. I think that's actually quite silly.

47:59

I think there's something sad about it. I mean,

48:02

take the symbolism out of the equation. The fact

48:04

that they've, you know, ooh, I've done it

48:06

after learning to cut it. That is quite funny. That is quite funny.

48:09

Like, there are certain examples of people doing that when

48:11

you're like, oh, I can just, I'm trying to get ahead here.

48:13

I know what won't change, but that is

48:15

ludicrous. Okay, so it's a nice

48:17

little touch, Dave. It's accompanied by a 500-word

48:21

piece on the FFA's website describing

48:23

this situation. The Emirates F.A. Cup's famous trophy

48:26

has already been partially engraved to recognise and celebrate

48:28

the first ever final between Manchester City and Manchester

48:29

United. Okay, got it. Thomas Light,

48:32

the competition's official trophy and silverware provider,

48:34

are responsible for etching the winning's name into

48:37

the history each season, and either the City United

48:39

will be added following the final whistle. Okay,

48:41

I've got it. All of which means that not once in

48:43

the competition's fabulously rich history has

48:45

an engraver had the chance to etch even the first

48:47

half of any finalist's name onto the trophy. Okay,

48:50

we get it. The word Manchester will

48:52

be on the cup by the time the winners have hoisted it

48:54

loft at Wembley. Yeah, I know. I

48:56

mean, I wonder, in 2015, when Arsenal

48:59

played Aston Villa, did

48:59

they do the A? Just in a... Oh,

49:02

I mean, stop! Let's get ahead of it. The

49:04

engraver's gonna be busy on the day. Let's just make

49:06

his life that bit easier. Do you do the United

49:09

in... Yeah. 99, when Newcastle

49:11

played Manchester United? Yeah,

49:13

God knows. Fittingly, the engraving took place in the

49:15

changing rooms at Wembley, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and

49:17

the engraving of either City or United

49:20

will then complete the process. Okay,

49:23

we get it. We get it. The request is

49:25

unprecedented and a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity,

49:27

engraving the trophy with the name of the city that will

49:29

eventually win the title, even before the final

49:31

match, as a remarkable gesture. Each

49:34

stroke of the hand engraving tool symbolised

49:36

the historical significance and immense

49:39

anticipation surrounding this fiercely contested

49:41

Manchester Derby. On Saturday, as

49:43

United and City battle it out at Wembley,

49:45

the finishing touch is waiting to be applied on

49:48

and off the pitch. What a complete

49:50

waste of time all of this is, as

49:53

much as I quite like it in its own way. They've saved,

49:56

what, how many?

49:57

How long does it take to engrave?

50:00

the word Manchester. Apparently, according to this

50:02

article, it takes place in the days and weeks

50:04

after the final. Right, so they don't do it. I

50:06

thought they were doing it. I'm very confused. There was a man doing

50:08

it in a room, you were only ready to do it. I

50:11

found it all very strange. I really don't know what's going

50:13

on. Have they put the white ribbons on and they're

50:15

going to add either the red or... The ribbons have not been applied, but

50:17

the article is very clear to state that. We're

50:20

all a bit muddled here. To bring us clarity,

50:22

to bring us finality, it's time for

50:25

Keys and Grey Corner.

50:44

Let's kick off. It's Elizabeth Barnard again.

50:47

She wants us, Charlie, to do a little review of

50:49

Keys' pre-season predictions. I've cherry-picked

50:51

a couple of them. Please note that

50:53

this isn't us just going back and saying, ah, you got it

50:55

wrong, because obviously that is futile and

50:57

cheap behaviour. There's some stuff here that he's got

50:59

bang right. But

51:01

crucially,

51:02

all of these are done in the most key way possible.

51:04

Number one, I've never tipped City to win it.

51:06

I don't know why, and I'm not going to now.

51:09

Make no mistake, they should. They really

51:11

should. They probably will. But Liverpool

51:13

are due one, and I don't care what they say publicly.

51:16

Guardiola, Mansour and Co. are

51:18

desperate to win the CL. Without question,

51:20

that's the one they must win. He's

51:22

just so sure of himself at all

51:25

times. It's superb. I was going to include

51:27

in the quiz actually something about when Liverpool

51:29

were going for the title. Keys in his blog

51:31

wrote something about how there was only one man

51:34

who said City wouldn't dominate forever,

51:36

and that was Andy Grey. So utterly

51:39

ludicrous. Dave, here's Keys'

51:41

on Brighton's prospects. Brighton, safe.

51:44

No more, no less. And that

51:47

should satisfy everyone at the Amex. Never

51:49

ever forget what you are. Strive for progress,

51:52

but realise

51:52

your station. Charlton forgot

51:55

what they were, and look what happened. Like

51:57

a little cautionary tale. Who are you?

51:59

Are you? Chad, also could that be his

52:02

world view more? Know your place. Knowing

52:05

your place. Incredible kind of pre-patronising

52:08

of Brighton there, Dave. I think this might be the best

52:10

of the lot, actually. Yeah, and still,

52:12

still Charlton's the go-to reference.

52:14

There are surely, there are loads more examples

52:17

you could have chosen from in the intervening

52:19

years. Stoke, for instance. Swansea,

52:21

Stoke. Charlton's amazing. Didn't

52:24

they go down in 2007? Let's

52:26

give Kizi his dues here. Here are some that you absolutely

52:29

nailed. Saints will struggle again.

52:31

Hazen Huttl was lucky to survive the backroom

52:34

clearout. Those things rarely work

52:36

unless you get rid of the lot, manager included.

52:38

I don't think he'll be there in November. Sacks

52:40

November the 7th. There you go. Nailed it. Next

52:43

up, of the new boys, I think Forest are best

52:46

equipped to survive. The city ground will be a hard

52:48

place to visit, but they'll still struggle to win 10

52:50

games. I reckon they'll have enough, just

52:53

about enough, if they can win a few at home.

52:55

Again! That's exactly why they stayed up! Yep.

52:58

But, of course, here we go. Fulham,

53:01

down.

53:01

Bournemouth, down.

53:03

If you push me, I'd go with Southampton to make up the

53:05

relegated three. And if you're looking for a surprise

53:07

struggler, it's got to be Leicester. And

53:10

for the record, I've had two of the bottom three

53:12

correct in each of the last two seasons. So

53:14

be worried if you support me. I remember us

53:16

taking the pit out of this the first time. That's

53:18

a pathetic track record! Be

53:21

worried. But he

53:23

got it again. Fair play. He called

53:25

Leicester. He called it. Oh my goodness.

53:28

Honestly, superb. Superb. He

53:30

gets it right. 50% of the time. Fair

53:32

play to him. Anyway, let's move

53:33

on. Here's Keys and Grey on Harry Kane's

53:35

future. Harry Kane should stay at Tottenham

53:38

and play for the next three or four years and win nothing.

53:41

Now, I'm not saying he won't, but when nothing, or

53:44

let's just say, for instance, go

53:46

to Manchester and have a chance

53:48

of winning something,

53:50

where would you go? Yeah, but if I'm... Why would you

53:52

do that? Well, because if I'm Mrs Kane, I'm thinking to myself, I'm winning right

53:54

now. I've got a lovely house. I live in a lovely part

53:56

of the world. The children are happy and settled. Harry's

53:58

playing football in Tottenham.

55:59

for another season. Well done, Everton.

56:02

That's us. Another season? Yeah.

56:05

Andy and I will be back with the Champions League final, what, two

56:07

weeks from now? And back with another season

56:10

of Premier League football on Saturday,

56:12

August the 4th? 12th. 12th?

56:15

12th. We'll see.

56:17

Absolute pros. I

56:19

had no other broadcaster,

56:22

could you do this? Why don't the season start

56:24

on a Friday anyway? Well, you do it all again.

56:26

Oh, God. They'll be back and

56:29

so will we. I hope.

56:31

Anyway, business complete. That's

56:33

our season done. But there's one final way to take

56:35

care of. This is David Walker's

56:37

final football cliche's appearance.

56:40

Much like Graham Soonness was bid goodbye,

56:43

bid farewell by Sky Sports the other day. Dave,

56:45

I'm so glad I collared you at the

56:47

Athletic Christmas Party all the way back in 2019 to suggest

56:50

we did this podcast. I think I got you just the

56:52

right number of points in for

56:55

you to be amenable to this idea. And I

56:57

was equally glad that you got there

56:59

first. You preempted

57:01

my... Good. I kind of had that in

57:03

mind to do that as well. So we were both on the same

57:05

page. And to be fair, it did take

57:07

us a while to get going, I think. Yeah.

57:10

But, you know, look how far we've come. 262 episodes.

57:12

That's how far we've come. Fondest memories of yours across

57:14

those episodes? Obviously the live shows were

57:17

amazing moments to meet all the listeners and

57:19

sort of see up close how

57:21

much people enjoyed it. But I've enjoyed

57:23

it all, really. It's been an absolute pleasure, isn't it, Charlie?

57:26

It really has. And it's very, very

57:28

sad. I feel emotional. Yeah, it should be happening,

57:30

but it

57:31

is happening. And we all have to just live with it. I don't

57:33

know how we're going to live with it, but we are. Dave, I

57:35

mean, there was one final piece of editing I was going to foist

57:37

upon you. I was tempted to just dump all these clips

57:39

on you and make your own farewell

57:42

montage. But I've

57:44

learned from the best. This is

57:46

the best bits of David Walker

57:48

on the Football Cliché's podcast. What a

57:50

producer he was, by the way.

57:57

We also have the Athletics managing editor

57:59

of audio. a bit like, in my

58:01

head this is a bit like when Abramovich comes down to the Chelsea

58:03

dressing room or when a headmaster comes into a school

58:05

lesson, it's David Walker. Hello. Thanks

58:07

for coming in on. Thanks for having me. You were

58:10

just in the office. It was my decision. It's fine. Yeah,

58:14

you are becoming a bit too involved in the kind of day to

58:16

day things.

58:17

First of all, David Walker, the podcast chief.

58:19

Yet more critical acclaim for you. A DM

58:22

from a friend of mine said, I liked the bloke

58:24

who wasn't JPB a lot. Okay.

58:27

Well,

58:27

that's good. Although that is

58:29

sort of a slight dig at JPB

58:31

as well. But I'm more worried about the fact that he likes you,

58:33

but still doesn't know your name. Yeah. I

58:35

suggest you've still got some work to do on this podcast. So don't

58:38

get complacent.

58:39

The technical issue here is, is it allowed to be a drought

58:42

if he hadn't scored for them in the first place? I suppose

58:44

if a river had never been full of water at any

58:46

point, it wouldn't be a drought. Literally,

58:49

no, that's actually really good. No, that's absolutely fine.

58:51

That's probably one of your better literally Dave moments, actually.

58:54

Completely agree. Yeah.

58:55

Who's the little and who's the large out of Gary

58:57

cheese and Dave chalk? Chalks large,

59:00

isn't he? Chalks lanky. Yeah. It's like a

59:02

stick of chalk. Yeah. Literally,

59:06

Dave absolutely. Sticks of chalk are quite small.

59:08

I mean, like

59:12

the long ones used to get school. It was a

59:14

lovely affair in Ibiza.

59:17

Places for my sins. Can

59:20

you who fair? You

59:23

know, you can't who for her. I do like the idea

59:25

of it, but you can't.

59:27

He can't who for header. Can you

59:30

100th appearance? Congratulations. Thank you. I was

59:32

thinking about it. It sort of feels to me. It feels

59:34

like I've had more than 100 actually in my head.

59:36

Well, you have in theory because you produced 90%

59:38

of the episodes. Yeah, I suppose that's why. Yeah.

59:41

First of all, Dave Walker, how are you doing? I am very good.

59:43

I'm actually, I've just, as I sat down to

59:45

record this, I've just looked to my right

59:48

with my wall chart is and

59:50

I've noticed that actually I filled

59:52

yesterday's games in last

59:54

night when I came in after a full day in the pub, but

59:57

I've done it really sloppily, like

59:59

outside. the lines, like, can't

1:00:02

even really tell what the score was in one of the matches.

1:00:04

Like, so, apart from that, I'm fine.

1:00:08

And

1:00:08

I worked in scientific research after

1:00:11

a break to have children. You're

1:00:13

a teacher from Kent. Do you teach?

1:00:16

I teach science. What

1:00:21

are you doing with all that time? Well,

1:00:23

I've recently taken up a bit of tennis again. I've

1:00:26

not played for quite a long time. What are my sins?

1:00:28

I still play a bit of football and... Hi,

1:00:31

I'm Lewis Jones. I'm from Haverhill in Suffolk,

1:00:33

and I'm studying journalism for my school. Oh, yes! Oh,

1:00:38

no! Like... Yeah, home and away,

1:00:40

seeing to get older, and last 30 years

1:00:42

from Sheffield, so for my school. Oh, for

1:00:44

his ins... What is wrong with you, love?

1:00:46

I'm looking for pottery

1:00:49

or particularly silver. I'm looking for

1:00:51

pigs as well for myself. Oh!

1:00:52

Oh, no! Yeah,

1:00:55

my castle. I am

1:00:57

Baron Carofex. For my sins. You

1:01:00

are on my land.

1:01:01

Oh! David

1:01:07

Walker, everybody!

1:01:09

Oh, wow. Good job.

1:01:12

Not bad, eh? Yeah. I can't believe how

1:01:14

weird we all sound back in the early, early

1:01:16

days. It's not like the show's ending. I'm

1:01:18

leaving, but the show will carry on. But

1:01:20

yeah, thank you both. It's been an absolute pleasure.

1:01:23

An absolute honour.

1:01:24

Genuinely brilliant. Yeah, you'll be back. I

1:01:26

sense it.

1:01:27

I sense it. In many ways, you'll be

1:01:29

back on this podcast. Thanks to everyone for listening.

1:01:31

Thanks to everyone for enjoying and contributing to

1:01:34

this podcast this season. We'll be back later this summer

1:01:36

by Hook or by Crook. Thanks

1:01:38

to you, Charlie Eccleshare. Thank you. And

1:01:40

thank you, Dave. Thanks to you,

1:01:42

David Walker. Thank you. And

1:01:44

thanks to everyone for listening. See you in

1:01:46

a while.