0:00

so I was in

0:02

a sexless marriage for about 17 years.

0:05

The original call I was

0:07

trying to save that relationship

0:09

because I have a now six

0:11

-year -old daughter turning seven. I

0:14

was unsuccessful at that. The

0:17

divorce was just finalized. The

0:20

call centered around

0:23

what I thought

0:25

was love, I guess. All

0:27

right. I'm sorry, I don't know

0:29

how to turn off the video. I

0:31

found the button. So, yeah,

0:34

I spoke with you

0:36

a year ago and what

0:39

was revealing to me about

0:42

that call was it

0:44

originated in failing

0:46

to resolve conflict in the

0:48

marriage and I couldn't understand

0:50

why me

0:53

and my ex -wife were just

0:55

fighting constantly and Couldn't

0:58

I was very frustrated with her.

1:00

I was being abusive with her

1:02

and I didn't understand why I

1:04

was doing that and the call

1:06

pretty much eliminated mother

1:08

issues essentially never

1:11

been loved never Been gaslit

1:13

really about the definition of

1:15

love for a very long time

1:17

and From that

1:19

process I've been doing a

1:21

lot of work trying to Kind

1:23

of undo that programming Which

1:26

has led to where I

1:28

am now Where I'm divorced.

1:30

I'm finding that I'm

1:32

very depressed about it.

1:34

I'm very depressed General I

1:37

can have a hard time getting up

1:39

and going to work

1:41

Kind of feel like I'm

1:43

all over the place here and Where

1:47

And it's like

1:49

I have this kind of like

1:51

sadistic bent where I like

1:53

I don't want to Cause

1:56

pain, but it's like I get kind

1:58

of this weird pleasure from it

2:00

which I think you know as

2:02

we've discussed in the past

2:04

on other calls because like

2:06

you called out that my

2:08

family was sadistic which I

2:11

can now see and I'm

2:13

like I've been trained in

2:15

this way and I don't

2:17

want to be this way

2:19

and It's it feels very

2:21

familiar. It feels it's odd

2:24

It feels like I'm fighting

2:26

myself Like don't be a

2:28

jerk Don't try and hurt

2:30

people which could just be

2:32

another people pleasing thing. So

2:34

there's there's a whole lot

2:36

of I Don't want to

2:38

hurt people So is that

2:41

because I was a big

2:43

people pleaser in the past

2:45

with my ex -wife I was

2:47

always trying to constantly manage

2:49

her emotions and I Yeah,

2:51

all right, so She

2:55

I was always trying

2:57

to not offend which

2:59

was Basically, it wasn't

3:01

being a man. I

3:03

wasn't just standing up for myself saying no,

3:05

this is what I want. This is what I

3:07

think I was always trying to manage her

3:09

emotional state and Sorry, but how did you know

3:11

that you could be a man with her? I

3:14

don't Yeah, mean cuz that that's an important thing

3:16

when I say well, I just wasn't a man

3:18

and it's sort of like well if I'm in

3:20

prison I'm just not talking back to the guards.

3:22

It's like, well, you can't really, right? I mean,

3:25

you're just going to get messed up. Right.

3:28

And it's interesting, I mean, not to

3:30

go off on a bunny trail

3:32

here. I just

3:34

spoke with my ex -wife over

3:36

the weekend, this past weekend, and

3:39

we kind of drew that

3:41

out, like how the relationship died

3:43

and why we actually kind

3:45

of came to an understanding about

3:47

it, which is pretty good. She

3:53

and I'm trying not to

3:55

like blame her completely because

3:57

It was kind of like

3:59

we were two Puzzle pieces

4:01

that fit together in a

4:03

very dysfunctional relationship, you know

4:05

We I say we were

4:07

kind of trauma bonded like

4:09

our trauma mashed each other's

4:11

trauma In a way she

4:13

was over controlled. I was

4:15

completely neglected So she would

4:17

give me a bunch of

4:19

attention And it was

4:21

the wrong kind of attention that

4:24

made me miserable because it was

4:26

very controlling and I Kind of

4:28

needed that female attention Because I

4:30

believe it's from lack of nurturing

4:32

from mother So we kind of

4:34

fit each other in that way

4:36

plus her father is not a

4:38

very strong male role model Put

4:41

it well, you just you repeated

4:43

child to trauma. I don't know

4:45

about this compatible stuff. It's like

4:47

You were used to being controlled

4:49

and so you chose the woman

4:51

who controlled you and right she

4:53

was used to. Being dominant and

4:55

so she chose a man who was submissive

4:57

i'm sure i'm mischaracterizing it to some degree.

5:01

But the sort of repetition compulsion sign of

5:03

the box of stuff which i i say

5:05

this with deep sympathy but. Isn't

5:07

that sort of the mechanic. Yeah

5:09

yeah no i think you're dead

5:11

nuts on with that and you

5:13

do this in order to justify

5:15

what your parents did because. If

5:17

what your parents did is completely

5:19

unacceptable immoral or something like that

5:21

right. Then you break

5:23

the cycle or to put it another

5:25

way. Your parents want

5:27

you to be with a controlling

5:29

woman. So that their abuses

5:31

and neglects on highlight for you. Your

5:33

parents want you to be with a

5:35

dysfunctional woman. So that you not

5:37

with a healthy moral woman who's going to call

5:39

out your parents dysfunction. Correct.

5:43

And I could see that because when.

5:45

I had that original conflict years and

5:47

years ago, and I went to

5:49

my dad for advice. He basically told

5:51

me to pick my battles and not rock

5:53

the boat. So

5:55

that was his

5:58

situation. He's just

6:00

passing it down to me, saying, yeah, you need

6:02

to fit this model. And

6:04

I accepted that when I shouldn't

6:06

have in my opinion. But

6:08

I mean, this is what it is. I

6:11

can't change it. Your

6:13

dad didn't have a happy marriage, right? I

6:15

wouldn't say so. Of course not, right?

6:17

So, and how old were you when you

6:19

got married? I was

6:22

20. Right. I mean, so

6:24

a young man for sure. But I

6:26

think that the idea of going

6:28

to your father for relationship advice

6:30

would be kind of like me

6:32

going to my mother on how

6:34

best to control temper. Yeah.

6:40

And yeah. So,

6:44

does that answer your question or do

6:46

you need any more information? Oh, no, it

6:48

doesn't answer my question at all. So

6:50

you talk about being a people pleaser, right?

6:52

Yeah. But you fought with your wife a lot. Yes.

6:56

So I think people pleaser, I mean, maybe

6:58

there are people pleases or whatever, but it's

7:00

too generic a term. Okay, and

7:02

so when you say I'm a people

7:04

pleaser often that is a way of

7:06

saying Well, I'm just really nice and

7:08

other people take advantage of me I

7:10

really want to help but people and

7:12

want them to be happy and they

7:14

just screw me over and take it's

7:16

usually a Pre a prequel to resentment

7:18

Right. I don't think of it that

7:20

way. I think of it from the

7:22

perspective of I'm trying to constantly manage

7:24

your emotions and I'm going to just

7:26

fall in line and say okay, all

7:28

right I'll do it that way because

7:30

you asked me to do it. Well,

7:33

no, but that's not being a people

7:35

pleaser. That's just appeasing out of fear.

7:37

Okay. I mean, have you

7:40

ever have someone who's kind of like

7:42

cringing and grime a world worm tongue and

7:44

toadieing to you? Oh, whatever you say.

7:46

Absolutely. I mean, isn't that kind of annoying?

7:48

No. No. I don't think I've ever

7:50

experienced that. Really? Well,

7:52

you're a terrible sadist then. Like

7:55

you're really bad at this. Because

7:58

that's what say this is supposed to do is make

8:00

people a little scared of them, right? Yeah,

8:03

and I've I've felt those

8:05

feelings before like when dealing with

8:07

children in particular which just

8:09

kind of scared the shit

8:11

out of me because I Recognize

8:13

it and I didn't like

8:16

it like I was oh like

8:18

when kids were scared of

8:20

you Yeah, okay where I

8:22

was starting to be cruel with

8:24

them. Okay Because that

8:26

was another thing about growing

8:28

up in in that household.

8:31

I was second born. They

8:33

were eight of us

8:36

total and The I would

8:38

Constantly harass my younger

8:40

siblings and I have a

8:42

eight in total is

8:44

that right? Yeah, okay and

8:47

I would definitely you

8:49

know, I don't think we

8:51

were hitting each other

8:53

but Definitely bullying and picking

8:55

on them. And I

8:58

remember getting upset when they

9:00

would just cry and wind

9:02

them up. And it

9:04

was totally just me and

9:06

my older brother too. We

9:08

were just kind of fed up with the

9:10

younger kids. And it's

9:12

just like this cruelness

9:14

that to me is just

9:17

evil. And

9:19

I mean, I've since tried

9:21

to apologize to my

9:23

siblings for that. because, and

9:25

my younger brothers, I

9:27

remember my younger brother, what do

9:29

we call him, number five, was

9:32

like, oh,

9:34

don't worry about it. It's fine. And

9:37

same with the next one.

9:40

And I'm kind of like, no,

9:42

it's really not fine. Like,

9:44

I don't know what to do about it. Okay.

9:46

So tell me about the people you've got

9:48

a theory that you're a people pleaser. And I'm

9:50

not, you know, I have some skepticism, but

9:53

that doesn't mean my skepticism is warranted. So

9:55

if you are a people pleaser,

9:57

can you tell me the people that

9:59

you've pleased consistently, like that, that

10:01

are happy with you and you don't

10:03

fight with and stuff like that? Yeah,

10:08

maybe that's the wrong term because

10:10

I can't think of anyone. I

10:13

know I'm very accommodating in

10:15

groups. Like I'm

10:17

very happy to help. And

10:20

I have this desire to be

10:22

accepted, so I want to contribute. I

10:24

don't know if that's really people -pleasing. No,

10:26

that's just being manipulative. It's like me

10:28

because I do things for you. Right.

10:31

Yes. That's probably more accurate.

10:34

Okay. So why do you think you

10:37

have a theory called people -pleaser, which doesn't

10:39

seem to be supported by the evidence?

10:42

Probably because I didn't think about it. No,

10:45

but I get that, but you still have this

10:47

theory, right? Yeah. Cause

10:49

I'm trying to figure out

10:52

why my marriage failed so

10:54

hard the way it did.

10:56

And I'm trying to recognize

10:58

my contribution to it. And

11:00

I see the, me

11:03

just not pushing back against

11:05

my wife or not saying

11:07

what I need to her.

11:09

That's a big reason. Like

11:11

I struggled being authentic. Like

11:14

I was very afraid of

11:16

her. And I was

11:18

afraid of losing her in

11:20

particular. So we

11:22

just defer to her

11:25

and try to not

11:27

upset her. Like try my

11:29

best to not upset at any cost. No,

11:31

but you fought with her a lot. Yeah,

11:33

we did. Particularly at the end.

11:36

No, no, there's no we. I mean, because I'm

11:38

only talking to you. You fought with her a

11:40

lot. Yes. So,

11:42

how is it like I'm such a nice guy, I don't

11:44

want to upset her, I just want to appease her,

11:46

I just wanted to be happy, and I fight with her

11:48

a lot. I just don't

11:50

feel those things, I don't understand those

11:52

two things together. Yeah,

11:54

I don't know. I think, because

11:57

that was my mindset, and

11:59

the result was fighting. Well,

12:02

then it wasn't, your mindset was not

12:04

to appease her, to be nice to her,

12:06

to make sure she didn't get upset,

12:08

because if that's the case, you wouldn't fight

12:10

with her. Right, I would just

12:12

I mean if you get pulled over by the cops,

12:14

right? Don't go there. You know, you

12:16

know, but you don't fight with them, right? No,

12:18

I just tell them now They don't know

12:20

what to do. No, no I mean you

12:22

can enforce your constitutional rights and I get

12:24

all of that But you don't start yelling

12:26

at them and and insulting them and like

12:28

you don't fight with them, right? That's

12:31

true because they'll just dominate me

12:33

with superior force Well, for whatever,

12:35

but that's, you're a cop pleaser,

12:37

right? And I'm not disagreeing with

12:39

that. It seems to me quite

12:41

sensible. So you're

12:43

a cop pleaser, so you don't fight with

12:45

cops, right? But I'm not

12:47

a wife pleaser because I fight with

12:49

my wife. Well, so that's what I'm

12:52

trying to understand, right? Right. And

12:55

I was fighting with

12:57

her. I'm trying

12:59

to remember back to these fights. It's

13:03

been a long time. It's been six

13:05

months. Yeah, that's not very long.

13:08

I know, but I'm struggling to

13:10

recall them because... I mean,

13:12

the fights are almost never about

13:14

the surface things, right? Right.

13:19

Yeah, I wasn't... You're right. When

13:21

you say I wasn't people pleasing

13:23

her. No, I was kind of

13:25

purposely not pleasing her. I was...

13:27

And we were rebelling against her. I

13:30

was like, I don't like the way we're

13:32

living in the marriage. I don't want to live

13:34

this way. But

13:36

before that, yeah,

13:40

I'm sorry for the

13:42

inconsistency here. It

13:45

seems like there was a

13:47

transformation because I was in the

13:49

marriage for 17 years and

13:51

up until about four years ago,

13:53

I would say it was

13:55

me trying to not make her

13:57

upset and do whatever I

14:00

could. to not make eruptions. Until,

14:02

sorry, until when? Until

14:04

about four years ago. Okay. And

14:07

from that point forward, I

14:10

kind of realized that what

14:12

I was doing wasn't making

14:14

me happy. I mean,

14:16

big deal, I have a kid. But

14:18

it's, I

14:20

wanted the dynamic to

14:22

shift in the

14:25

relationship. Okay, I

14:27

mean, that's... what that means. I wanted

14:29

the dynamic to shift. And that's

14:31

not like, that doesn't, that doesn't convey

14:33

any information to someone. So

14:35

like, so we were

14:37

living where she was dominating

14:39

me and I didn't

14:41

like that anymore. And

14:43

I didn't want to live

14:46

that way. And I recognized

14:48

it as bad. Okay.

14:50

And how was she dominating you? I'm

14:52

not disagreeing. I just want to make sure I understand. Well,

14:54

it was through conflict whenever there

14:57

was a conflict it was escalation and

14:59

shut down tactics We kind of

15:01

went over this in the last call.

15:03

Mm -hmm. And no, no, I

15:05

get that but in what specific ways

15:07

Was she dominating you was it like

15:09

we have to live where I want

15:11

to live we have to buy the

15:13

furniture I want about like how was

15:15

she dominating you in sort of practical

15:18

Mechanistic ways rather than just there was

15:20

a fight and she yelled it was

15:22

mostly scheduling type stuff

15:24

like she wanted to spend time like

15:26

watching a show and i didn't

15:28

want to do that and then if

15:30

i said i didn't want to

15:33

do that she get upset and say

15:35

you don't want to spend any

15:37

quality time and i would respond with

15:39

well i don't i want to

15:41

spend quality time with you but i

15:43

don't really want to spend it

15:45

watching a show like i find a

15:48

show to be kind of boring

15:50

and you know not exciting for me.

15:52

But not that I can't sacrifice

15:54

for her. It

15:57

was basically she ran that side

15:59

of the relationship and I wanted

16:01

to do like I wanted to

16:03

exercise or like we could spend

16:05

quality time. Let's go for a

16:07

run together or something like that.

16:09

She didn't want to do that.

16:12

So I would just give in to sitting

16:14

down and watching a show and then

16:16

I would just hate it. I

16:19

don't feel like

16:22

she was understanding me

16:24

or cared that I

16:26

found it annoying. Okay,

16:29

so sorry. I'm not trying to

16:31

diminish it, but your marriage ended because

16:33

you didn't want to watch shows

16:35

or you pretended that you wanted to

16:37

watch shows, but you were seething. It

16:39

was more the seething. Okay,

16:42

so you lied to her and you said,

16:44

I'll watch a show, but then you'd be bored

16:46

and seething. Right. And I

16:48

would say I hate this and I wouldn't

16:50

tell her that. You would

16:52

say you hate this, but you

16:54

wouldn't tell her that so who

16:56

would you say it to I

16:58

would say to myself like in

17:00

my head like I hate this

17:02

Okay, and you didn't but you

17:04

didn't tell her correct Okay Okay,

17:06

so I mean I think I

17:08

have enough to give you feedback,

17:10

but I'm certainly happy to hear

17:12

more of your thoughts Basically she

17:14

was running All like so another

17:16

thing that I didn't do I

17:18

was very isolated in the relationship I

17:21

didn't spend a lot of time with any

17:23

guy friends, which I now see is kind

17:25

of important. Like I need to

17:28

be able to get out and socialize. I'm

17:30

very extroverted. She's very,

17:32

she was very introverted. And

17:34

I kind of deferred to

17:36

that aspect. And

17:38

that's kind of where I say like, oh,

17:41

I'm trying to just keep her happy at

17:43

my own expense. And

17:45

I remember she used to do

17:47

these, she would do a party

17:49

once a year. And

17:51

it was a big to do,

17:53

seems party. A what

17:55

party? It was, we call

17:57

it the Hobbit party on September 22nd

18:00

for, you know, the little Baggins birthday.

18:02

She's a big Lord of the Rings

18:04

fan. A big one fan? Lord

18:06

of the Rings. Lord of the Rings. Okay, guys. Sorry.

18:08

You're just, you're swallowing your words a little bit. So go

18:10

ahead. Yeah. So like that

18:12

was like a big event that

18:14

would take a good amount of prep

18:17

time. And I enjoyed it

18:19

too. But it was kind

18:21

of like her thing that

18:23

she did with, you know, our

18:25

resources and I. I

18:27

don't really resent her for it.

18:29

It's just, it was nothing that I

18:31

did that was similar, you

18:33

know, like have a guy's poker

18:36

night. It was because that,

18:38

that would have been a big deal.

18:40

Like if I were to say,

18:42

hey, I want to have five of

18:44

my guy friends over and we're

18:46

just going to be in the record.

18:49

playing poker. I would

18:51

just have to run it by her. I

18:53

couldn't just schedule it. I mean, not that

18:55

I would. No, I mean, you have to run things past your

18:57

wife, right? I mean, you live in the same house. Right,

19:00

right. But it would have been

19:02

like a scary thing for me

19:04

to do, to have any sense.

19:07

It doesn't make sense, but I'm certainly happy. Why

19:09

would she say? She

19:11

would have been like, well, I

19:13

don't know, the house isn't clean, or she

19:15

would probably make up some excuse. To

19:17

make to make it not happen plus

19:20

there would be the well you don't spend

19:22

time with me Okay, let's let's do

19:24

this role play because I'm not sure I

19:26

understand these conflicts. Okay, so you be

19:28

a wife Yeah, okay, so it's a yeah,

19:30

I've just realized I haven't seen my

19:32

friends for a while. I'm going to I

19:34

mean, do we have anything on for

19:37

like Sunday night? Well, Sunday

19:39

is a family day.

19:41

So what about Monday night

19:43

Monday? No, there's nothing

19:45

on for Monday Fantastic. Okay,

19:47

so I'm gonna have, I

19:50

just, I feel the need for

19:52

some airy chest rubbing stuff and

19:54

I'm just going to have a

19:56

bro night playing poker with my

19:58

friends. We'll obviously, you know,

20:00

we'll stay in a little bit out of

20:02

your way and all of that, but I

20:04

just wanted to let you know ahead of

20:06

time and so that you're not shocked when

20:08

the bros show up. Well,

20:10

okay, but you know, you

20:12

haven't taken me on a

20:15

date in you know, two

20:17

weeks and it's like you

20:19

work so much and I

20:21

don't feel like you're making

20:23

any time for me. I'm

20:26

sorry, I don't understand. What does that have to do

20:28

with me having my friends over? This

20:30

is something that I want to do. I

20:32

mean, I do spend... We live together, right? We

20:34

are raising a child together. We spend lots of

20:36

time together. I haven't seen my friends in months.

20:39

Are you saying that I need to take

20:42

you out on a date and buy

20:44

you things? in order to see my friends

20:46

i'm not sure i quite follow that

20:48

like i'm not sure what it like why

20:50

are you making this about you this

20:52

is between me and my friends and i'm

20:54

obviously being a nice husband and and

20:56

all that and telling you but i'm not

20:58

sure how you're making this about you

21:01

maybe misunderstanding something it's not you should have

21:03

guy friends it's not really about that

21:05

it's about how i don't feel like you're

21:07

spending time and You know that's why

21:09

i'm sorry i still don't understand what has

21:11

to do with me having friends that's

21:13

a whole separate conversation. And of

21:15

course you can always ask me out on

21:17

a date and you can always arrange thing i'm

21:20

not sure why this would be an issue

21:22

right if you want to spend more time with

21:24

me. Then call up a place will get

21:26

a babysitter will go out for dinner like you

21:28

guys i'm not sure why the sort of.

21:30

Like rubber bones complaining stuff is coming up if

21:32

there's something that you. Want in

21:34

the relationship then you should make

21:36

it happen but complaining. does not

21:38

make you very appealing, right? Just

21:40

as if I complain, I'm not

21:42

very appealing either, right? Like

21:45

if I whine about not having sex and

21:47

complain about not having sex, does that make you

21:49

want to have sex with me? Does that

21:51

crank your juices to the max? No.

21:54

Right. So when I say I'm

21:56

having friends over and then

21:59

you complain about something that is

22:01

perfectly easy for you to

22:03

solve, That's not very appealing. Like if

22:05

you say, you're just not spending time with

22:07

me and blah, blah, blah, does that make

22:09

me want to spend time with you? No,

22:11

I mean, the way that we enjoy time

22:13

together, if you feel something is lacking is

22:15

you arrange for me to have a good

22:17

time with you. Do you know what I

22:19

mean? Yeah. Yeah.

22:23

Yeah, I don't know what to say

22:25

after that because I mean, I'm

22:27

trying to think what she was. If

22:29

I said anything remotely like that, I

22:31

would never say anything like that. But,

22:34

I mean, was there anything that I

22:36

said that was rude or mean? No,

22:39

no. It was

22:41

standing up for yourself.

22:44

Well, I don't know what that means exactly, but

22:47

I'm just telling the truth. Like, I don't

22:49

see how... Right, right. You know, if you want

22:51

to spend time with me, make arrangements to

22:53

spend time with me. If you want to go

22:55

on a date, ask me out on a

22:57

date. I can't read your mind, so tell me.

22:59

And then don't. Wait and just complain that

23:01

we're not spending time together the moment that I

23:03

bring up. You know, like you said

23:05

we got so you said we got nothing on

23:07

Monday night. So then you say, well, we haven't

23:09

gone on a date. Well, then why the hell

23:11

don't you just make a date for Sunday night

23:13

for Monday night, right? Because Sunday is family day.

23:16

Just make a date for Monday night. But don't

23:18

complain to me that we're not spending time together

23:20

when literally a couple of days from now we've

23:22

got a night free and you haven't made any

23:24

arrangements for us to spend time together. That

23:26

doesn't make any sense to me. That's like.

23:29

There's a class at the gym that I could go

23:31

to on Monday night, but all I'm doing is

23:33

complaining about not being in shape. That

23:35

doesn't make any sense

23:37

to me. So it's just

23:39

not saying that she's

23:41

a sovereign, independent individual who's

23:43

perfectly capable to solve

23:45

the problem she's complaining about.

23:49

Whereas what you do is she complains

23:51

and you're like, oh, I got to

23:53

fix it. But that's entirely disrespectful to

23:55

both of you. You know

23:57

if somebody's like in my life is complaining

23:59

about oh, I'm overweight or I'm gaining weight

24:01

and so on. Am I going to sit

24:03

there, rush around and create a meal plan

24:05

and hire them a private chef or some

24:07

kind of nonsense. Oh, that's tough. Tell me

24:09

more. Oh, yeah. No, I sympathize man. Maybe

24:12

it's got something to do with your childhood, but

24:14

you know, obviously you know what to do. Like you're

24:16

an intelligent person just buy a diet book, eat

24:18

less and exercise more. It's not brain. It's

24:20

not rocket science in terms of doing it,

24:22

right? There may be resistances that are difficult,

24:24

which I understand. But I'm not going to rush

24:26

in there and try and solve their problem,

24:28

if that makes sense. Because they're

24:30

an independent, smart human being, right? Right.

24:34

And did try that line

24:36

once or twice. Hey,

24:38

why don't you schedule something if you're

24:41

so keen on going out? And

24:43

she objected to that and said,

24:45

it was my responsibility to go

24:47

as the man. So

24:50

it's your responsibility to

24:52

ask your wife out. And

24:54

it's not ever her responsibility to make

24:56

any arrangements for you two to spend

24:59

time together. Right. Hmm.

25:02

Okay. So have her make that case

25:04

to me? So I say, well, you could ask me out

25:06

and she would say what? I'm

25:09

sorry, I don't. So you want

25:11

me to ask her? Yeah, be her and

25:13

how she would respond like it's, right? So

25:15

you just, you just said, hey, you

25:17

make, you make a call. Mm -hmm.

25:20

Well. It's your responsibility as

25:22

a man leader of the family

25:25

to Pursue me as the woman

25:27

and I don't think you want

25:29

to pursue me and if for

25:31

me to make plans It just

25:33

feels like I'm chasing you around

25:35

and I don't think that's right

25:37

So you're you're gonna tell me

25:39

what my responsibilities are as a

25:41

man I Mean you've never been

25:44

a man You don't know what

25:46

it's like to be a man.

25:48

You don't know what it's like

25:50

to be in my body you

25:52

don't know what it's like to

25:54

be me and i don't know

25:56

i would i would never tell

25:58

you what your responsibilities are as

26:00

a woman because i'm not a

26:03

woman i mean we can negotiate

26:05

these things but i i find

26:07

it kind of incomprehensible to me

26:09

that you would try and tell

26:11

me what my responsibilities are as

26:13

a man now you could say

26:15

you could say well your responsibilities

26:17

as a man are to take

26:20

charge and be the

26:22

leader. That's what you

26:24

were saying, right? Yes.

26:27

Okay. So then what

26:29

would your responsibilities as a woman

26:31

be? Well, I

26:33

mean, my responsibilities a woman

26:35

are to, you know, follow

26:37

my man and to support

26:39

him and be loving and

26:42

caring. To submit? Yeah.

26:46

Okay. So give me some examples. So

26:48

when we have a disagreement and

26:50

I'm stating what I want to need,

26:53

and you fight with me, is that submitting?

26:55

I mean, listen, I'll rewrite what I'm

26:57

saying a little bit in that you can

26:59

tell me what my obligations are as

27:01

a man, but then you also have to

27:03

tell me how you've modeled your obligations

27:05

as a woman. Because if you don't actually

27:07

have any obligations as a woman, you

27:09

can do whatever you want. But I have

27:11

all these obligations as a man. I

27:13

mean, that's just exploitive, right? Yeah,

27:15

it's tyrannical. But it's like saying you have

27:17

a responsibility to work for me, but

27:19

I don't have a responsibility to pay you

27:21

and it's just get slave labor right. So

27:24

help me understand because we have a lot of conflict

27:26

and you disagree with me a lot and you fight with

27:28

me a lot now we fight together or whatever it

27:30

is right. But if your responsibility

27:32

is a woman is to submit. Because

27:35

I'm in charge how does

27:37

that square with the fighting stuff.

27:40

So the whole idea

27:42

of submission from. For

27:45

me as a woman is you

27:47

have to be the right kind of

27:49

man to submit to and if

27:51

I don't feel like you are Being

27:53

a good man. I'm under no

27:55

obligation to submit Okay, so there's not

27:57

submission then that's only submission if

27:59

you agree And and think that I'm

28:01

already right in other words if

28:03

you don't feel like Submitting you don't

28:05

have to submit but that's not

28:07

submission. I mean there's no law of

28:09

the land that says Well, you

28:11

have to follow this law unless you

28:13

just don't feel like it. And

28:15

then you don't. I mean, try that

28:17

defense in a court of law.

28:20

Oh, your honor, I just didn't feel

28:22

like it. I know

28:24

how absurd the argument sounds because

28:26

we were actually fighting about

28:28

this idea of, you know, what

28:30

does it mean to, you

28:32

know, the biblical idea of why

28:34

I'm submit to husband's husband's

28:36

wife's. And it got

28:38

to that point where it's just

28:40

she's only going to submit. When

28:43

she approves of me as a

28:45

man, which well know and so then

28:47

so then I would say but

28:49

you already buried me and You already

28:51

had a child with me. So

28:54

you've already chosen me like you've already

28:56

chosen me as the leader of

28:58

the family Yes, if I hire if

29:00

I hire a personal trainer after

29:02

reviewing a whole bunch of personal trainers,

29:04

right? I want to get muscular

29:06

and fit and I hire a personal

29:08

trainer and I've been working with

29:10

that personal trainer for 10 years Do

29:13

I then get to say my the

29:15

personal trainer that I've chosen? To

29:17

be my only personal trainer for

29:19

10 years that he's an idiot.

29:22

He's wrong and I'm not gonna

29:24

listen to him That would be

29:26

ridiculous. It would be ridiculous, right?

29:28

So like you use choosing to

29:30

submit to me is 17 years

29:32

ago Right, so you can't choose

29:34

me choose to be my husband

29:36

and make the vows and give

29:38

me leadership in the family And

29:40

then fight me whenever you This

29:44

is where the dynamic shift

29:46

from four years ago comes

29:48

in because up until that

29:50

point, we were getting along

29:52

fine until I change as

29:55

a man. The

29:59

way I look at it, she

30:01

didn't want to follow in those

30:03

footsteps. She wouldn't submit.

30:06

Right. And again, it's not really to

30:08

you as an individual, right? I mean, you don't say

30:10

jump off a cliff, and she jumps off a

30:12

cliff. It's, yeah, this

30:14

is hilarious wherein you have expertise

30:17

and have proven your worth

30:19

over the years and so on,

30:21

right? Right. See, the

30:23

model we were trying to follow is

30:25

the biblical model of why I've submitted

30:27

husband's love and a husband that loves

30:29

his wife would never ask her to...

30:31

No, no, no, no. That's a bad

30:33

model. I'm sorry. I don't mean to

30:36

be heretical and I you know I'm not an expert

30:38

in this area of the Bible as I'm not

30:40

an expert every year of the Bible But no no

30:42

no hang on hang on. So do you know

30:44

why this is a bad model? No,

30:46

please tell me okay. It's

30:48

a bad model because if

30:50

the woman submits and the

30:52

husband loves then she has

30:54

a perfect excuse to not

30:56

submit which is to say

30:58

I don't feel loved Right

31:00

which she said multiple times

31:02

Right. So no, no, no,

31:04

submission is not feelings -based. Right.

31:07

Submission is when you do something

31:09

that's the right thing to do when

31:11

you don't want to do it. Correct.

31:14

I mean, nobody who loves cheesecake

31:16

says, I'm going to have discipline

31:18

and submit to eating cheesecake. Correct.

31:21

Yeah. Right. So if I'm in

31:23

an argument and someone disproves a

31:25

point of mine or shows me

31:27

data that contradicts my point, I

31:29

don't like it. Obviously, people want

31:31

to win arguments, right? I don't

31:33

like it. But because I'm a

31:35

reason and evidence guy, I

31:38

submit. So

31:40

maybe the problem with the

31:42

model is they're tied

31:44

together. Well, no, the problem

31:46

with the model is that one is objective

31:48

and one is subjective. So the

31:50

objective thing is submit, right?

31:53

Right. And the

31:55

subjective thing is I don't

31:57

experience love. I don't feel. Loved

32:00

I don't feel that you're loving

32:02

therefore. I don't have to submit now.

32:04

I was a man like you

32:06

you can't You can't objectively and rationally

32:08

overturn somebody's Claimed subjective experience if

32:10

it'd be like if I said I

32:12

had a dream about being on

32:15

the space shuttle last night and you

32:17

were to try and disprove it

32:19

Right, there's no standard by which you

32:21

can disprove a claimed emotional experience

32:23

Right because then it turns into this

32:25

bullshit of like you should do

32:27

this well i don't feel loved but

32:30

i do love you but i

32:32

don't feel it and then what like

32:34

where do you go and the

32:36

tyranny of women's subjective emotional experience is

32:38

crazy in this world because this

32:40

is all this stuff like it's not

32:43

what you say it's how you

32:45

say it's like i have this subjective

32:47

experience that you're treating me with

32:49

disrespect and let's talk about that and

32:51

it's just a way of not

32:53

listening not submitting not obeying good arguments

32:55

and reason. Right.

32:58

So what I mean, it's like an

33:00

engineer who builds a bridge. The bridge

33:02

falls down and he says, but I

33:04

feel it's still standing. I strongly, I

33:06

really feel it's still standing. Now,

33:08

I guess you can objectively say the bridge is

33:10

falling down. But if a

33:12

woman says, well, I don't have to listen

33:14

to you because I don't feel like

33:17

you're coming from a place of love. That's

33:19

just vanity. That's just the angry will.

33:21

That's just she can make up this thing

33:23

called I don't feel loved. And then

33:25

she doesn't have to listen to anyone or

33:27

do anything. Right. And

33:30

women will often, it's not just women, of

33:32

course, right? But women will often say, if

33:35

I have a negative emotional experience,

33:37

I don't have to listen to

33:39

you. I mean, you can

33:41

see this with, you know, whenever

33:43

people from the conservative movement are on

33:45

sort of the liberal media, which

33:47

is basically to say the media, they

33:50

provide facts and the

33:52

female anchors are just

33:54

upset. Or I find

33:56

that offensive. And so if you say

33:58

two and two make four, the woman says,

34:00

I find that offensive. Then you end up not

34:02

talking about two and two make four, but

34:04

talking about the woman being

34:07

offended. Which is why in

34:09

the role play, when I was playing you

34:11

and said, am I gonna have friends over

34:13

for poker? And she says, but you don't take

34:15

me out. I'm like, that's not completely unrelated. So

34:18

could say what I'm talking about. So

34:20

if I say two and two make four and a

34:22

woman says that upsets me, I'd be like, well, What

34:24

does that have to do with two and two making four? Right.

34:28

So it's the constant pull you into

34:30

the black hole of my emotional

34:32

state. But it's not a real, no,

34:34

it's not a real emotional state. It's

34:38

a manipulated emotional state. It's manipulation, it's a

34:40

play, it's a con, it's a ruse, whatever

34:42

you want to call it. It's not real.

34:45

It's just that if a woman doesn't want

34:47

to do something and then she says

34:49

she's upset, then you end up talking about

34:51

her being quote upset. and never

34:53

talking about the stuff she has to do. Right.

34:56

Like, it's a negative emotional

34:58

estate for me to pay the mortgage, but

35:01

I still do it. Right.

35:04

Right. I can't... It's just

35:06

a matter about being

35:09

an adult, really. You

35:11

have to do things you don't want to do, and

35:14

you do them. Well,

35:16

and it's a woman, again, this

35:18

happens with men too, but we're

35:20

just talking about your wife. It's

35:22

women who constantly want to be

35:24

wooed. Yeah. And

35:27

that puts men on this endless

35:29

treadmill where they're constantly, and this

35:31

is what your quote wife said

35:34

in the role play, right? She

35:36

said, well, you've got to be chasing me. It's like,

35:38

no, honey, I already caught you. Like

35:41

I got you 17 years ago. You

35:43

chose me 17 years ago. I'm not

35:45

going to keep chasing you because that

35:47

makes no sense. Yeah,

35:50

it's sort of like when you

35:52

go to a car dealership and you

35:54

say, I'm really interested

35:56

in dropping $100 ,000 on

35:58

a car, well, they're going to bring

36:01

you a nice cappuccino, they're going to sit you down,

36:03

they're going to chat with you, right? But

36:06

after you buy the car, if you go

36:08

back in and they know you're not going to

36:10

buy a car because you just bought the

36:12

car, if you go back in, you're not going

36:14

to get a nice cappuccino. You're not gonna

36:16

get lots of chats from everyone because they already

36:18

sold you the car. Right.

36:21

And so this women who want to be perpetually

36:23

wooed it's kind of incomprehensible now listen i'm

36:25

i'm a husband i think romance is nice and

36:28

you know i'll buy my wife flowers from

36:30

time to time and send her nice cards

36:32

there's nothing wrong with but she also does really

36:34

nice things for me very sort of thoughtful

36:36

things and picks me up things that i mentioned

36:38

a month ago that she remembered so there's

36:40

sort of this mutual thoughtfulness about it. But

36:43

the purpose of a marriage the

36:45

purpose of male and female is not

36:47

to be wooed It's like saying

36:49

that the purpose of a car dealership

36:51

is not to provide people with

36:53

cars But but but lattes and cappuccinos

36:55

is like no the purpose of

36:57

the car dealership is to give people

36:59

mobility in return for money and

37:01

The purpose of a marriage is to

37:03

have a good raising of children

37:05

Right now you woo for sure you

37:07

were at the beginning. I get

37:09

that there's nothing wrong with that. That's

37:11

fine But the purpose of

37:13

marriage is not wooing. Or let

37:15

me ask you this rather blunt

37:17

question. Did you have

37:19

more sex very early on in

37:21

your relationship as opposed to later? Oh,

37:24

definitely early on. Yeah,

37:26

seven, ten times a week, I bet,

37:28

right? Well, no. If you

37:30

recall, there were issues.

37:33

Oh, yes, that's right. But the desire and

37:35

the lust and the thirst was all

37:38

there very, very strongly at the beginning. When

37:41

women say I want to be perpetually

37:43

wooed, that's the equivalent of men saying,

37:45

I want the exact same amount of

37:47

sex for the rest of my life

37:49

that we had on our honeymoon. Right.

37:53

Now, if a woman were to say that,

37:55

right? Well, we had sex

37:57

twice a day on our honeymoon.

37:59

So I expect for the rest of

38:01

my life, 14 times having sex

38:03

a week. The woman would say,

38:06

what? No, it's the honeymoon. That's not

38:08

sustainable. Right. And

38:11

so a man recognizes that your

38:13

whole marriage ain't going to be like

38:15

your honeymoon because that's not the

38:17

purpose of a marriage, is not to

38:19

have endless amounts of sex, although

38:21

a nice bonus, but it is to

38:23

having and raising of children. Correct.

38:26

And so for your wife to say, I want

38:28

to be perpetually wooed would be like you

38:30

saying, I want a perpetual honeymoon. And

38:32

on the honeymoon, did I have a job? Did

38:34

I have to pay any bills? No, not really. I

38:36

didn't, you know, we had room service. So for

38:39

the rest of my life, I want sex twice a

38:41

day and not to have to work. And also

38:43

it'd be great if we lived on a beach. The

38:46

woman would say, what? No,

38:48

no, that was the honeymoon for me. And I

38:50

want the honeymoon forever. And the

38:52

woman would say, what? No, that's not

38:54

right. No, we live on

38:56

a beach for the rest of her life and have sex twice a

38:58

day. And that would be the

39:00

answer to, I want to be wooed forever. But

39:03

no, no, no, you chose me. The wooing

39:05

is done. I

39:07

mean, if you want to meet with your real estate

39:09

agent because you're about to drop a bunch of

39:11

money on a house, you want to meet with your

39:13

real estate agent for lunch, she'll buy

39:15

you lunch because she's anticipating making a whole bunch

39:17

of money from selling your house, right? But

39:20

if you're not in the market for a house

39:22

and you call up your real estate agent and

39:24

say, yeah, I'm not buying anything and I'm not

39:26

going to buy anything for years, but it'd be

39:28

great if you took me out for lunch. What's

39:30

she going to say? I

39:32

mean, she's going to say like, I'm

39:35

busy. Chasing clients that are but you

39:37

took me out for lunch last year

39:39

many times. Yeah, that was when

39:41

you were buying a house, right? The

39:43

one should be in this closed the

39:46

behavior changes. So speaking

39:48

of children, you know,

39:50

we waited 11 years to

39:52

have children and it

39:54

was. We didn't

39:56

really negotiate that what is

39:58

the marriage for idea

40:00

up front. No, but you're

40:02

both Christians, right? Yes,

40:05

so most of that negotiation is done for

40:07

you, right? I mean to

40:09

a degree. I mean in the

40:11

in the Protestant book It's not like

40:13

the Catholic side where it's like

40:15

you will It's baby. Well, you had

40:17

vows, right? Sure, absolutely So

40:19

the vows do a lot of

40:21

the work for you. Yeah,

40:23

love honor and cherish

40:26

So and sorry to

40:28

remind me why you

40:30

were 11 years I

40:32

I claim it's because

40:34

our childhood trauma issues,

40:37

me and my ex

40:39

-wife both had pretty

40:41

rough childhoods. So

40:44

we weren't excited to

40:46

make children upfront based on

40:48

the fact that we

40:50

were just kind of coming

40:52

out of that aspect. At

40:55

least that was my reasoning. I'm

40:57

sure if you talk to her, it would be

40:59

something similar. We

41:02

just didn't want to

41:04

make babies and I

41:06

think that's kind of

41:08

a thing I See

41:10

that in in some

41:12

Christian circles. I can

41:15

know of another couple that's in

41:17

a similar situation. Sorry, you see what

41:19

now is just the reluctance to

41:21

have children. Yeah, like you're you're married

41:23

for a good five year kids

41:25

yet now and then I don't want

41:27

to Make any claims because they

41:30

could be trying and they could be

41:32

unsuccessful like that. That is a

41:34

thing too. So, but yeah. Well,

41:36

I mean in general, and this is there's

41:38

lots of exceptions, but I would just say

41:40

this in general terms, maybe it applies to

41:42

your marriage. So

41:44

before children, the work

41:47

is male, primarily. The

41:50

man has to ask out, the man has to

41:52

chase, the man has to woo, the man has

41:54

to pay for dates, right? Yeah.

41:57

And then you know, oftentimes it's a

41:59

male who pays for the marriage. It could

42:01

be the father of the bride or the father

42:03

of the groom, but it's very rare that

42:05

a woman will pay for her own marriage. And

42:08

so, and then the honeymoon

42:10

is not usually paid for by the woman herself,

42:12

but you know, someone else or

42:14

at least split. And then, you

42:17

know, you get a place and

42:19

oftentimes the man is earning more and

42:21

so he pays more of the

42:23

mortgage. So right until the moment that

42:25

she gets pregnant, the

42:27

resources and work and money

42:29

flow to the woman. And

42:33

then what happens is that

42:35

all reverses itself. Tide comes in

42:38

and tide goes out. That

42:40

all reverses itself when the woman

42:42

starts to have babies. Now

42:44

it's her turn to work. The

42:48

man builds the nest, the

42:50

woman has the babies, and then the woman has

42:52

to raise the babies for the most part. what

42:57

I sort of noticed with a

42:59

lot of modern women is they want

43:01

to stay in that greedy Pac -Man

43:03

consuming phase where the man's providing

43:05

all the resources and they don't have

43:07

to actually have and raise the

43:09

children, which is a lot of work.

43:12

Right. I understand that. I

43:14

mean, it's more fun to have people

43:16

pay for stuff than it is to

43:18

get up because your baby's colicky. Yeah.

43:22

Just so you know, my ex -wife

43:24

did not work for the duration

43:26

of our marriage. Wait,

43:28

what, you funded her for 11 years?

43:31

Yeah. But no kids? Yeah.

43:34

Oh, so you basically kept her an

43:36

infant? Basically. Okay.

43:39

So, okay, let me ask you this, a pretty

43:41

blunt question. Go for it. Yeah.

43:45

Compared to me, yeah. I saw. Because...

43:50

you don't have children, what do

43:52

you have to do with yourself? I

43:55

mean, keep the house. She kept the house great. She

43:58

didn't cook as often

44:00

as I'd like for not

44:03

having any child responsibilities. You

44:07

know, typical like sleep in

44:09

type stuff, you know, she

44:11

probably sleep until eight or nine.

44:13

Sorry, did she, I mean, did

44:15

she do charity work in the

44:17

community, volunteer at soup kitchen? Did

44:19

she do? Stuff at church that

44:21

was very nice and time -consuming

44:23

and helpful to the community No,

44:25

she was so she is just

44:27

lazy She did she did do

44:29

music shows She's a musician Okay,

44:31

that's not charity. She likes playing

44:33

music Right and when she got

44:35

paid for it too, but she

44:37

oh she'd have to pay for

44:39

it So you'd have to pay

44:42

for it. Well, no, no, she

44:44

would get paid by the gig

44:46

and Would but in reality They,

44:48

in my view, they were more fun

44:50

than work. Yeah, and musicians

44:52

don't get paid much money, usually. Right.

44:55

And the reason they put up

44:57

with that crap is because it's

44:59

enjoyable. Right. It's,

45:02

yeah, I remember we did a gig

45:05

up in Rhode Island, and that was

45:07

a lot of fun. You

45:09

know, we got to stay in a nice place. It

45:12

was an adventure. Okay, so

45:14

you're working with commute. And preparation

45:16

and all of that, you know,

45:18

probably 10 hours a day, right? Easily.

45:22

All right. And she's not. So

45:25

she feels aristocratic and she

45:27

feels, and this is the

45:29

problem. When you, when

45:31

you give stuff to lazy people,

45:33

they just get entitled and they

45:35

get manipulative as hell. That's

45:38

the welfare problem, right? Rather

45:40

than saying, oh my gosh, I made a

45:42

mistake. Like I had a kid

45:44

out of wedlock with a guy who didn't stick

45:46

around. I'm so ashamed it's really bad for the

45:48

kid. I really appreciate society

45:50

stepping up but i'm gonna

45:52

work to become as independent as

45:54

humanly possible because. I

45:56

have empathy for the taxpayers right

45:58

now you give people welfare. And

46:01

they lose their morals because morals are

46:03

about scarcity. And they just

46:05

get entitled and then if you

46:08

touch their welfare they write right

46:10

so giving stuff to lazy people.

46:13

Corrupt them so yeah.

46:15

I corrupted her. Well,

46:17

you certainly didn't help. And

46:19

did you ever say, if

46:21

you're not having kids, you need to get a job.

46:24

You to do something. No,

46:26

because it was my personal

46:28

belief. My personal belief,

46:30

which was based around, you know,

46:32

having children, was that women shouldn't

46:34

have job, they should have children. And

46:36

it wasn't until, you

46:38

know, I had that, it

46:41

would have been, I

46:43

say, four years ago, the

46:45

relationship changed. the wake

46:47

up probably happened for me

46:49

about it was right

46:51

before she got pregnant, which

46:53

would have been six,

46:55

seven years ago. And

46:57

was the pregnancy planned? Yeah.

47:00

Yeah. Okay. So you all decided, okay,

47:02

we've done her 11 years, going

47:04

to have some kids, right? And now how, what was

47:07

she in her thirties by then? All right. So I'm sorry.

47:10

I think she was

47:13

31. Okay. All

47:15

right, so you have a

47:17

kid and Yes, then then

47:19

she's got a bunch of work to do

47:21

right and you know, that's fair Right sometimes

47:23

you rest sometimes for a long time and

47:25

then you work, right? Yeah

47:27

Okay, so how did she handle

47:29

the workload of motherhood which

47:31

is you know considerable? I

47:35

would say she handled it

47:37

pretty good Definitely didn't she

47:39

didn't complain about your lack

47:41

of contribution, right? No

47:43

Yeah, that's that's nice to

47:45

hear and you know, she

47:48

breastfed for I forget how

47:50

long it was at least

47:52

six months. Okay longer Basically

47:54

till she I mean there

47:56

were some issues with breastfeeding

47:58

too, but she understood the

48:00

importance of that and The

48:03

job I was working at

48:05

the time was very accommodating

48:07

because I because she had

48:09

a shed hapsis serian Which

48:11

is very rough. So I

48:13

basically had to take a

48:16

month off of work To

48:18

because you know when you

48:20

have a society can't move

48:22

essentially. It's very very painful

48:24

and So I helped around

48:26

that and you know, we

48:28

all bonded with the baby

48:31

she was great and Yeah,

48:33

I would say she was

48:35

fulfilling her motherly duties adequately

48:37

And you weren't really fired

48:39

to get that time. Is

48:41

that right? Well,

48:45

with sleep deprivation, one does not

48:47

have much energy. Yeah, but that

48:49

doesn't mean fighting. I mean, everyone says, like, stress

48:51

leads to fighting. No, no, stress can have you

48:53

bond and laugh about it and be closer together.

48:55

It doesn't, right? I mean,

48:57

I remember the transition from the old

48:59

self and father self, which was

49:01

just like, oh, it's not about

49:03

me anymore. There was

49:05

this very... Yeah, what a relief, man.

49:07

It's so nice to focus on other

49:09

people because the self does get kind

49:12

of boring. Circular after a while.

49:14

Well, right. It's like there's this mission

49:16

that's always there in the background.

49:18

Keep the baby alive. Keep the baby

49:21

alive. Yeah. So

49:23

you're just like whatever it

49:25

takes. Yeah. And

49:27

I don't know. Sorry, I was asking if you, so

49:29

you were fighting, is that right? After the baby was

49:31

born? I don't recall much fighting

49:33

after the baby was born. Okay.

49:35

So when did the fighting start? The

49:38

fighting started It

49:40

was after we moved

49:42

into a different house

49:44

and that's a good

49:46

question. It may have

49:48

been around COVID type stuff

49:50

too, because this is

49:52

so 2020 COVID happens. I

49:56

get disillusioned

49:58

with society over

50:01

that. And

50:04

it feels like it

50:06

kind of corrupt in. It

50:09

was once everything stabilized

50:11

after the newborn phase. And

50:13

we're back into

50:16

a routine. I

50:18

know I was talking about having a

50:20

second child, and

50:22

we had decided to

50:24

try for a second

50:26

child. But unfortunately, we

50:28

had a miscarriage. So,

50:32

and I think... I'm sorry to give that,

50:34

of course. That is sadly common. Yeah.

50:37

And that was the

50:39

end of 2020. And

50:42

after that, things went

50:44

downhill, end of 2020. So

50:47

2021 on. And

50:50

it was kind

50:52

of like she reverted

50:54

back to that

50:56

entitled state, except with

50:58

a child now. So

51:01

now it was like... Sorry, what's the... Do

51:03

you think the miscarriage was the transition point?

51:06

I would say she was very, very

51:08

sad about that and, you know,

51:10

understand. And yeah,

51:12

I would say that would

51:14

get a transition point. Okay.

51:17

And how far along was she

51:19

when you miscarried or when she

51:21

miscarried? I think it was about

51:23

six weeks, very early. Okay.

51:25

So was she, she was able to pass

51:27

it without induced labor, right? Correct.

51:29

Like a DNC. Okay. Got it. And

51:31

then listen, I mean, that's slightly less

51:33

horrifying, but it doesn't mean it's not

51:35

horrifying. Of course right. Okay, but

51:37

you know i mean this is the hamlet thing

51:39

right i mean your father lost a father his

51:41

father lost a father. You know

51:44

what was it 30 % of pregnancies

51:46

ended miscarriage it is. It

51:48

is a sadly common occurrence

51:50

and most women will go through

51:52

at least one so why

51:54

do you think it changed so

51:56

much. Well

51:58

i think because i

52:01

was also changing i

52:03

was getting less. I

52:05

was getting less accommodating, I would

52:08

say, to not being

52:10

the man that I

52:12

felt like she's just

52:14

dictating everything. And

52:16

I mean, I was probably

52:18

an asshole about it to

52:20

a degree. I'm

52:22

not trying to diminish, you

52:24

know, my attitude, but... But

52:26

you were rewriting the contract.

52:29

Basically, yeah. I mean, she chose you,

52:31

I assume, in part because

52:33

you were submissive. Right

52:36

and and listen rewriting the marital contract

52:38

is a very risky business It's sort

52:40

of like, you know, it's not quite

52:42

the same obviously, but it's like if

52:44

you say well, you know Putting no

52:46

others before us with monogamous. Yep. Yep.

52:48

Yep. And then you're like, hey I

52:51

think I want to open the marriage

52:53

up to other people and it's like

52:55

Right. I mean that is you're rewriting

52:57

in a sense the reason she chose

52:59

you Yeah, you know, I was This

53:02

is where the whole, like,

53:04

the cult accusations come in from,

53:06

like, the last call. Because

53:09

when I say

53:11

I was disillusioned with

53:13

society during COVID, I

53:16

didn't mask, like,

53:18

at all because, to

53:20

me, it was total BS. And

53:23

you can look up... The mosquitoes

53:25

through the chain -linked facts is

53:27

a good analogy. Yeah, no, you

53:29

don't have to, you're preaching to

53:32

the choir, so I get all

53:34

of that, right? Right, right.

53:36

But women in general, I mean,

53:38

COVID was a lot driven by

53:40

women because, and I say this

53:42

with sympathy, but women have a greater fear of illness

53:44

than men because women usually are the ones who have

53:46

to take care of the ill. And

53:48

I'm not going to say I'm

53:51

clean and pure because, you know,

53:53

I got fired for not asking.

53:56

And the people who fired

53:58

me were women. in the

54:00

HR department of Unsafe, who's

54:02

still waiting for that apology. He's

54:06

waiting. He's

54:08

waiting. And

54:10

I was kind of, I'm

54:13

not, no, I was

54:15

very mad at women

54:17

in general at this

54:19

point in my life

54:21

because I see everyone

54:23

around me playing this

54:25

game, except for the Amish.

54:27

I was surrounded by Amish, but they did

54:29

not play the game. And

54:32

I felt very ostracized. I

54:34

remember being in the grocery store.

54:37

I started going to this one grocery store

54:39

because they wouldn't enforce any of the mask

54:41

mandates because they were awesome. And

54:43

it's like customer for life. I like you

54:45

people. And this

54:47

old lady was scolding me

54:49

in the checkout line next

54:51

to the grocery store owner's

54:53

wife, who was also unmasked

54:56

at the time. And

54:58

it's just like, where

55:00

do you get off, lady? You

55:02

don't even know me. You're

55:05

40 years older than me.

55:08

You're half of my size and

55:10

weight, and you are wagging your

55:12

finger at me. Someone who

55:14

could literally kill you if I

55:16

wanted. What is wrong with

55:18

this picture? Do you want to

55:20

know what's wrong with this picture? Please enlighten

55:22

me. You would give enough submissive vibes.

55:24

Okay, what did you do? When

55:27

this happened. During

55:29

COVID? No, when

55:31

this woman was finger -wagging at you. I

55:34

stared at her like an ostrich. You know,

55:36

cocked the head slightly. Like,

55:38

who are you? I

55:41

should have yelled at her. Well, I

55:43

don't know, but so you didn't do anything. And

55:45

I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't have. I'm

55:47

just giving you the mechanics of the situation. Yeah,

55:49

yeah, yeah. I know I didn't

55:51

react, you know, emotion. So she got

55:53

away with bullying you. Yeah.

55:55

So how did she know?

55:58

Remember bullies are incredibly sensitive.

56:01

Bullies know who to pick on. Right.

56:04

So you'll be happy to know.

56:06

did she know that she could

56:08

get away with it? I

56:11

must have been vibing,

56:14

you know, but that's something because you said that

56:16

you were submissive to your wife for many years,

56:18

right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So

56:20

so she had to you had to

56:22

stamp on you. Owned by

56:24

vagina or I don't know something right?

56:27

I would I mean that

56:29

would have been nice Sexless

56:31

marriage remember so Yeah, how

56:33

could she pick up on

56:35

that because I don't know

56:37

but but they do Yeah,

56:40

and I'm coming up and

56:42

I'm not masking. I'm not

56:44

following the normal and yet

56:46

she still finds the way

56:48

to How dare me in

56:50

public right? I'm

56:53

not I'm not trying to praise

56:55

myself Lord knows I have my weaknesses,

56:57

but I didn't ask as a

56:59

whole and And nobody ever said I

57:01

mean there was my daughter and

57:03

I got kicked out of a mall

57:05

at one point But that I

57:07

don't consider that bullying. That's just they

57:09

have to follow the rules and

57:11

blah blah blah. I don't consider but

57:14

nobody ever said boo to me

57:16

right and and if you're going to

57:18

Defy society's convention you have to

57:20

do it in a Sort of crazy

57:22

alpha way. Right. You have

57:24

to be aggressive. know, if somebody starts in

57:26

your face, you say, step back, back off,

57:28

back off, step back. And

57:30

do not talk to me that way. Don't even try. Yeah.

57:34

Which, all I was going

57:36

to say, you'll be happy to

57:38

know that the next little old lady

57:40

that's picked on me, I did yell

57:42

at her and I said, buzz off

57:44

lady. Like, and it

57:46

was for some stupid picky you

57:48

thing on a walking trip. She

57:51

was upset that a group

57:53

of us were I guess on

57:55

the wrong side of the

57:58

trail and it's like When you're

58:00

in your 70s, don't pick

58:02

on a group of men like

58:04

I don't understand why Because

58:06

I responded aggressively to her and

58:08

she did back off so

58:10

I just don't understand that dynamic

58:12

like She looked at us

58:14

and saw what a load of

58:16

nonsense you're talking. Okay. Sorry

58:18

Are you bigger than your wife?

58:21

Yeah. I don't understand

58:23

the dynamic. I

58:26

don't understand why this lady

58:28

on the walking trail could

58:30

feel confident to address a

58:32

group of dudes that she

58:34

doesn't know. Well,

58:36

but for the most part, I

58:38

mean, she was right. I mean, she

58:41

happened to like you happen to

58:43

be going through a changing phase, right,

58:46

which probably wasn't quite in your body

58:48

language yet, right? Probably not

58:50

because she still addressed it if we

58:52

were so she when she read

58:54

the situation Did any of the other

58:56

guys say anything? No, right?

58:58

So she read the situation

59:00

Correctly. Yeah. Yeah, but she

59:02

didn't yell that understand the

59:04

dynamic well The equation in

59:06

her head like why does

59:08

I mean? She just assumes

59:10

all men are weak or

59:12

she can very easily read

59:14

the sign. No, no, no.

59:16

Let's assume all men are

59:18

weak. She assumed we

59:20

were. Well, she read your guy's

59:22

body language and she recognized you were guys

59:24

who grew up with weak fathers and dominant

59:27

mothers and she could push you around. Yeah.

59:30

It's sort of like saying, well, how

59:32

does the lion know which zebra

59:35

to chase? Well, he looks for the

59:37

smallest, weakest, limpiest one. Right,

59:39

right, right. It's a

59:41

predatory instinct. Yeah,

59:44

this is great. I'm gonna gonna

59:46

have to go back on this hike

59:48

and Just portray total. I'm an

59:50

asshole. Don't mess with me see what

59:52

I was yeah, I was saying

59:54

this to My my daughter the other

59:56

day About how because I've been

59:58

look I'm obviously no big muscle guy

1:00:00

But you know I'm fairly strong

1:00:02

and I have been working out pretty

1:00:04

continuously since I was You know

1:00:06

15 or so years of age. So,

1:00:08

you know, that's that's a it's

1:00:10

a long -ass time, right? Now, I've

1:00:12

had some people kind of in my

1:00:15

face, but they don't do it

1:00:17

much. And that's

1:00:19

because there's a physical

1:00:21

read on physical strength. Right.

1:00:24

And because I'm physically strong, it's

1:00:27

not just the muscles. It's

1:00:30

the fact that I work out that shows

1:00:32

a certain amount of self respect. Yeah.

1:00:34

That shows a certain amount of I'm worth

1:00:37

it. It shows a certain

1:00:39

amount of I'm going to move through

1:00:41

the world. with a strong

1:00:43

body and good posture. Direct

1:00:46

handshake, firm squeeze, straight spine,

1:00:48

whatever it is you wanna

1:00:50

call it. Which is

1:00:52

why, although I've had a couple

1:00:54

of times, people in my face, I've

1:00:56

always been able to verbally put

1:00:58

them down and back them off. Because

1:01:01

they're reading the fact that I

1:01:03

work out. And it's at an unconscious

1:01:05

level and so on, right? So

1:01:08

let me ask you this. Did

1:01:11

you lift? I don't

1:01:13

lift. Well, then you're

1:01:15

going to get pushed around. The

1:01:18

only lifting I do is

1:01:20

in my workshop, which is more

1:01:22

of a hard labor type

1:01:24

stuff. I do metal fabrication as

1:01:26

a hobby, which is

1:01:28

almost metal fabrication. That's like being a

1:01:30

musician. Just kidding.

1:01:33

Sorry. Go on. Almost. Oh,

1:01:35

you want to hear my t -shirt idea? Yeah.

1:01:38

Metal. is for kids who hate their parents.

1:01:40

Emo is for kids who don't know

1:01:42

it yet. Nice. Yeah.

1:01:46

So, but now like, yeah,

1:01:48

working with feel is very

1:01:50

heavy. Honestly, no, but that kind

1:01:52

of, I've done that kind of physical labor, it

1:01:54

kind of weighs you out. And

1:01:57

it makes you appear just tired. Muscles

1:01:59

don't do that. Honestly,

1:02:01

it's the simplest thing in the

1:02:03

world. And, you know,

1:02:05

I, I'll do weights watching

1:02:07

the show, you know, just get, you know,

1:02:09

25 pounds or whatever, do some biceps, do some

1:02:12

show. It's so easy to

1:02:14

integrate into your life. And you can

1:02:16

do a pretty good workout if

1:02:18

you focus in 20 minutes. It's nothing.

1:02:21

It's like being in the bathroom with Candy

1:02:23

Crush. It's nothing. It's so easy.

1:02:25

I've never become addicted to Candy

1:02:27

Crush. You've never left? I've

1:02:30

never become addicted to Candy Crush. That's

1:02:32

because it's a girl thing. So

1:02:34

good. No, but I

1:02:36

mean, it is, it is so

1:02:38

easy and it is, I

1:02:41

mean, it's just so ridiculously good for

1:02:43

you and it saves you so

1:02:45

much money. Yeah. Yeah,

1:02:47

I mean, you don't have to see the

1:02:49

doctor nearly as much. You don't

1:02:51

get sick nearly as much. Your bones

1:02:54

are strong. You don't, I mean, if you

1:02:56

let your bones sort of deteriorate, then

1:02:58

they're easier to fracture and break and that

1:03:00

puts you out forever. You

1:03:02

don't have to buy new clothes all the

1:03:04

time. I mean, I just, because I exercise

1:03:06

and eat reasonably well. I still fit into

1:03:08

the clothes I wore when I was 18.

1:03:11

I've never had to buy a new wardrobe because of weight.

1:03:14

Right, right. No, I'm a runner,

1:03:17

so I like to do long distance

1:03:19

running. Yeah. Do you know what running

1:03:21

is? Pray. That's

1:03:24

funny. I'm good at running

1:03:26

away. I am, yes. I

1:03:31

mean, so I would just say Obviously, I'm no

1:03:33

expert, but just take a little bit, carve a

1:03:35

little bit of time out of the running and

1:03:37

do some lifting. Okay. Also

1:03:39

good for your testosterone. Yeah,

1:03:42

I've heard that. I mean, lifting

1:03:44

changes your odor and people smell

1:03:47

that on an unconscious level. The

1:03:50

musk. Yeah, no, the pheromones are

1:03:52

for a real thing. Yeah,

1:03:54

yeah. Okay, so

1:03:56

when you say you don't understand

1:03:58

the mechanics, I'm telling you the mechanics.

1:04:01

No, this is enlightening because yeah,

1:04:03

you're right. I never thought of

1:04:05

it that way. Have you

1:04:07

ever done any posture work like Alexandra

1:04:09

technique or anything where you work so

1:04:11

that you know the idea is that

1:04:14

your head floats and your body is

1:04:16

kind of hanging underneath it and your

1:04:18

shoulders are relaxed and like there's a

1:04:20

whole bunch of posture stuff you do

1:04:22

that helps prevent conflict as well. Interesting.

1:04:25

No, I've never, I've never done that.

1:04:27

The only, the only posture work I've done

1:04:29

is, you know, sitting at the computer

1:04:31

desk trying to be conscious of how I'm

1:04:33

sitting. So I'm not like turning into

1:04:35

job of the hut. No, you gotta, you

1:04:37

gotta move through the world with some

1:04:40

elegance, grace and strength. And it just prevents

1:04:42

a lot of problems. I mean, I've

1:04:44

had it once or twice where I've been

1:04:46

at a cafe or a restaurant and

1:04:48

somebody recognized me and was upset or mad

1:04:50

at me. I just stood up. Nice.

1:04:54

Yeah. Now I'm not, again, I'm

1:04:56

just a shade under six foot tall, so

1:04:58

I'm above average, but I'm not a tall

1:05:00

guy. And I'm not like, you know,

1:05:02

I don't have to turn sideways to get through doors

1:05:04

and I could probably grab a post -it note between my

1:05:06

shoulders. I'm not muscle bound or anything like that, but

1:05:09

just stand up. Well, it's

1:05:11

a showing of, are

1:05:13

you serious? Well, it's making

1:05:15

myself bigger. That's what animals do, right? And

1:05:18

you think all these like cats

1:05:20

hiss and put their fur up

1:05:22

and lizards have these flaps. Around

1:05:24

their neck to make themselves look

1:05:26

bigger. I mean, I'm just I'm

1:05:28

getting bigger and right back off

1:05:31

In which you're also introducing the

1:05:33

possibility of physicality whereas they're just

1:05:35

yacking you standing up is like

1:05:37

Let's add this element in there

1:05:39

too. Yeah, one go there You

1:05:41

need to you need to step

1:05:43

back right now. You need to

1:05:45

step back You need to be

1:05:47

not in my personal space, right?

1:05:51

Yeah So again,

1:05:53

I'm obviously I've I'm not perfected

1:05:55

this kind of way and

1:05:57

and and so on but I'm

1:06:00

just telling you the mechanics of

1:06:02

this kind of stuff that little

1:06:04

old ladies scanned you you

1:06:06

and your friends and we're like,

1:06:08

yeah pushovers and obviously made a

1:06:10

slight miscalculation With you, but it

1:06:12

didn't really cost her anything No,

1:06:14

and I just remembered thinking

1:06:16

about that after the fact it's

1:06:18

like You're literally a hundred pounds

1:06:20

lighter than me No, but you

1:06:23

think it's about strength. It's

1:06:25

not. But like, why?

1:06:27

What you mean? Why is it not about strength? Because it's

1:06:29

about mental strength. It's

1:06:32

like me in a bar,

1:06:34

if I'm in a bar

1:06:36

and there's drunk guys that

1:06:38

are 50 pounds heavier than

1:06:40

me, I'm not going to go

1:06:42

talk about their mother to them. Sorry,

1:06:45

but what are you talking

1:06:47

about? No, this is

1:06:49

a little old lady. With

1:06:51

guys. Yes, there's a threat of violence.

1:06:54

Sure. We learn not to run our mouths as kid

1:06:56

because somebody's got to pop this one, right? Right.

1:06:58

But this is a little old

1:07:01

ladies. It's a completely different category.

1:07:03

Yeah. And it all has to

1:07:05

do with social approval, right? So if

1:07:07

you run your mouth and insult someone's mother

1:07:09

at a bar and he pops you

1:07:11

one, I mean, legally, I'm sure

1:07:13

that would be assault and all of that.

1:07:15

But a lot of the guys would

1:07:18

be like, well, that was stupid. Why did

1:07:20

you say that? Yeah, including the cops

1:07:22

that show up. Well, the cops might have

1:07:24

to press charges if the person really

1:07:26

wants to, but they'd be like, my advice

1:07:28

is don't go to bars and insult

1:07:30

drunk guy's mothers. Right. Now,

1:07:32

I guess, you know, we'll press charges

1:07:34

and it's technically, but I'm no cop, but

1:07:37

I guess they'd say, don't do

1:07:39

the stupid shit. Exactly. That's

1:07:41

exactly like the guy who I

1:07:43

remember seeing at hospital. Who complained that

1:07:45

his broken arm wasn't healing and

1:07:47

it turned out he'd gone skydiving. The

1:07:50

doctor still had to treat him

1:07:52

but he'd say don't go skydiving

1:07:54

you absolute moron. No

1:07:57

hundred percent. Hey i

1:07:59

got hernia surgery and went on a

1:08:01

roller coaster is like well that was

1:08:04

and i guess we'll stitch you up

1:08:06

but that was retarded. Right

1:08:08

right so so you're in a situation.

1:08:11

Where if you. mouth off to drunk

1:08:13

guy and insult his mother and he

1:08:15

hits you. I mean,

1:08:17

yes, technically, he's in the wrong. a violation,

1:08:20

blah, blah, blah, free speech, but it's just

1:08:22

stupid. Exactly. Whereas,

1:08:24

you know, what are you

1:08:26

going to do with a little old lady

1:08:28

that people will approve of? Right.

1:08:30

You can't pop her one. Push you down the hill?

1:08:32

Of course not. I don't do that, right? To

1:08:35

me, I just saw

1:08:38

it as what an arrogant

1:08:40

display of... she's using

1:08:42

the social power to her advantage. She's

1:08:44

saying, I know you won't do anything

1:08:46

based on your body language and I

1:08:48

can get away with being rude and

1:08:50

disrespectful to people twice my size. Sure.

1:08:54

And why does she do that? Because

1:08:56

she's right. Yeah. She's

1:08:58

absolutely right about that. She's

1:09:00

absolutely right. So me screaming, me

1:09:02

raising my voice and telling

1:09:05

her to piss off is a

1:09:07

pushback on that idea in

1:09:09

her head. Well, I

1:09:11

don't know, but it's not about what

1:09:13

you say after you get bullied.

1:09:15

It's about preventing the bullying in the

1:09:17

first place. Because you're thinking, well,

1:09:19

what should I have said to this

1:09:21

old woman? My point

1:09:24

is, don't have her speak

1:09:26

to you that way to begin with. Right.

1:09:28

And you're right about that.

1:09:30

The prevention is... Oh, yeah. It's

1:09:32

sort of like, well, once I met a fight, how do I handle

1:09:34

it? It's like, how about not getting into the fight in the first place?

1:09:37

Right. and do some

1:09:39

martial arts, so you're prepared. Well,

1:09:42

I don't know maybe martial arts, but

1:09:44

martial arts, to me, there's no substitute for

1:09:46

weights. Because martial arts is

1:09:48

kind of a bait and switch, because

1:09:50

you don't look muscular, but you know how

1:09:52

to fight. Whereas if you have

1:09:54

some muscles in general, people just won't mess

1:09:56

with you. Well, I'm

1:09:58

also thinking weight class is a

1:10:00

big thing too, because even it

1:10:02

doesn't matter how trained you are,

1:10:04

really, if you've got 50 pounds

1:10:07

on them. Yeah, weights is the

1:10:09

ultimate non -aggression principle because it

1:10:11

prevents escalation, like having some muscles

1:10:13

is the ultimate non... To me,

1:10:15

this is the absolute manifestation of

1:10:17

the non -aggression principle. That's

1:10:19

a great way to inspire people to go to the

1:10:21

gym. Yeah, I mean, it's in

1:10:23

conformity with everything I talk about. Prevention

1:10:25

is better than cure, and you want to

1:10:27

have a non -aggression principle, and if you

1:10:30

have some muscles and walk with confidence,

1:10:32

people in general don't mess with you and

1:10:34

they don't aggress. So you're actually walking

1:10:36

around with some muscles, that are like, you

1:10:38

know, pissing on the fires of other

1:10:40

people's irrational aggression. Right. Okay.

1:10:44

So, yeah, the

1:10:46

original, I feel like

1:10:49

we've kind of strayed in. No, no, I'm

1:10:51

still on the sadism thing, if that's

1:10:53

the major thing we want to talk about.

1:10:55

Well, it's that and the depression. Okay,

1:10:57

so I think the two are related. So we'll do the

1:11:00

sadism briefly, then we'll do the depression if that works. Yeah,

1:11:02

yeah. Okay, so sadism

1:11:05

requires a trap. Right.

1:11:07

So sadism requires an excuse and I'm

1:11:09

not calling you a sadist. I'm just

1:11:11

saying sadism as a general principle or

1:11:13

a trend, right? I don't want

1:11:15

to reduce you to like two syllables in

1:11:17

one category, right? So a

1:11:19

sadist first has to

1:11:21

convince himself that the other

1:11:23

person is negative, bad

1:11:25

or annoying. So there's

1:11:27

a trap. There's a trap element

1:11:30

to unleashing sadism. And this is

1:11:32

why I fixated earlier so much

1:11:34

on this people pleaser stuff. Yeah,

1:11:37

so one of the ways that

1:11:39

sadists Act is they have to gather

1:11:41

enough resentment that it feels almost

1:11:43

like self -defense There has to be

1:11:45

an excuse for their unleashing of aggression

1:11:47

and you know some of it

1:11:49

is like I give and I give

1:11:52

and you just take it you

1:11:54

take it you Right, and then they

1:11:56

they get mad right and then

1:11:58

they get angry. Maybe they hurt the

1:12:00

other person But it feels like

1:12:02

it's self -defense because they're being exploited,

1:12:04

right? Like if you've got a

1:12:06

bunch of workers and they want to

1:12:08

steal the factory from the guy who built

1:12:11

the factory, generally they can't just go

1:12:13

and kill him and take the factory because

1:12:15

then they just feel like evil, right? So

1:12:17

what did they do? Well, they need a whole

1:12:20

ideology that justifies the theft. Well,

1:12:22

it's actually our factory. He exploited

1:12:24

us. He's a capitalist, a

1:12:26

Kulak. He's a bourgeoisie. He's a

1:12:28

predator. He steals from us.

1:12:30

And then they can rouse themselves

1:12:32

to the point where they

1:12:34

can do evil and feel like

1:12:36

it's justified. In other

1:12:38

words, nobody really wants to steal a

1:12:40

bike. But if they feel like

1:12:42

they're stealing a bike back, that's

1:12:44

OK. So

1:12:47

the sadism is masked in

1:12:49

a revenge or blowback

1:12:51

fantasy. And because of

1:12:53

that, you can act in a

1:12:55

cruel manner and feel justified. And

1:12:57

it's the justification that's actually the

1:12:59

root of sadism. Not the cruelty.

1:13:02

Because without the justification, the sadism

1:13:04

really can't manifest. Okay.

1:13:07

So you say, well, I'm just a people pleaser and

1:13:10

I just, I try to do everything to make

1:13:12

my wife happy, but she's still not happy. Damn it.

1:13:14

I've done everything. I've done everything. Did you see

1:13:16

how this kind of works? Right? And then you can

1:13:18

get aggressive. Yeah.

1:13:21

So the just, yeah, the justification. Yeah.

1:13:24

There has to be a trap. There has

1:13:26

to be a snare. And so what was your

1:13:28

justification you and your elder brother what were

1:13:30

your justifications. For your aggression against

1:13:32

your younger siblings well that's just annoying they

1:13:34

don't listen that just always in my face

1:13:36

they don't share like there's something that you

1:13:38

do to build yourself up. To

1:13:41

the point where it feels justified it's their

1:13:43

fault. Maybe

1:13:45

you say about your younger

1:13:47

siblings that allowed you to. Be

1:13:50

cold or cruel to them.

1:13:53

Think about this cuz. the

1:13:56

context around the cruelty was

1:13:58

It was like it was

1:14:00

power dynamic Cuz no power

1:14:02

dynamics. Come on. There was

1:14:04

something as a kid that

1:14:06

you said about your brothers

1:14:08

and your sisters that justified

1:14:10

your cruelty We were just

1:14:12

bigger than them So that's

1:14:14

not enough. That's not enough.

1:14:17

I'm I'm really digging deep here

1:14:19

in the memory hole here, so Okay,

1:14:23

did you experience them

1:14:25

as annoying? Yeah, okay,

1:14:27

so they annoyed you so you're

1:14:29

just pushing back They annoyed

1:14:31

me and they would always appeal

1:14:33

to mom Right and so

1:14:36

so they're smaller so they had

1:14:38

to right so you were

1:14:40

actually causing them to appeal To

1:14:42

their mother because you and

1:14:44

your brother were bigger and aggressing

1:14:46

against them, right? I

1:14:48

mean If a guy is going to, obviously it's a

1:14:50

totally different moral category, if a guy is going to

1:14:52

rape a woman and then he's mad because she called

1:14:54

the cops, it's like, well, she has to because she's

1:14:56

smaller. Right. Okay.

1:14:58

So they were annoying and

1:15:01

they called mom, which you caused,

1:15:03

right? But you didn't sit

1:15:05

there and say, well, I guess they have no choice

1:15:07

but to call mom because me and my brother are

1:15:09

bigger, right? No, of course

1:15:11

you didn't say that. We were

1:15:13

just like, why are you That's what

1:15:15

I mean. Like, so you're a

1:15:17

tattletale. i'm gonna punish so i aggress

1:15:20

against you you call for mom

1:15:22

oh you're a tattletale i'm gonna punish

1:15:24

you for that right you just

1:15:26

did the justification is to say this

1:15:28

this occurs at a micro level

1:15:30

this occurs at a macro level like

1:15:32

genocide is based upon the dehumanization

1:15:35

of the other right yeah and so

1:15:37

why would i have to have

1:15:39

an excuse wherein you're not just an

1:15:41

asshole but They're annoying.

1:15:43

They're in your face. They don't

1:15:45

listen. They ran to mom.

1:15:47

There's something by which your cruelty

1:15:49

is justified and the justification

1:15:51

is the sadism because without that

1:15:54

the sadism can't manifest or

1:15:56

rather it manifests just as cruelty

1:15:58

which is anathema to the

1:16:00

conscience. And I'm sure similar

1:16:02

things happened with your wife as

1:16:04

well. I'm

1:16:07

trying to understand

1:16:09

why I would be inspired

1:16:11

to do that to my younger... Okay,

1:16:13

let's go to COVID. Yeah.

1:16:16

You said you were disillusioned with

1:16:18

society. Yeah, that's

1:16:20

not true. Okay, how long have you listened to what I

1:16:22

do? It's been about two years

1:16:24

now. Okay. So,

1:16:26

okay, that makes more sense to me. My

1:16:29

apologies. Okay, so for not not including

1:16:31

you, of course, for people who've listened longer,

1:16:33

COVID cannot have been much of a

1:16:35

shock. Okay. And

1:16:37

the reason being that, I mean,

1:16:39

if you've ever heard about the Stanford

1:16:41

Prison Experiment or the Milgram experiment

1:16:44

or anything like conformity experiments, the

1:16:46

majority of people are highly

1:16:48

conformist and will murder other

1:16:50

people if told to. Like

1:16:52

two thirds of people, sometimes it's even

1:16:55

higher, maybe a little bit lower. But

1:16:57

in general, the significant majority of people,

1:16:59

like, I mean, if you won an

1:17:01

election by 66%, that would be a

1:17:03

complete landslide, right? the

1:17:05

the majority of people, the

1:17:08

overwhelming majority of people, will

1:17:10

kill others if told to.

1:17:13

Okay. So, and again, I'm

1:17:15

not saying, I mean, maybe you, if you

1:17:17

ever heard of these kinds of psych experiments or

1:17:19

anything before. The one where

1:17:22

they slowly ramp up the voltage

1:17:24

charge. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah. And

1:17:27

this, this actually came as a great,

1:17:30

the psychological community said, Oh man. Only two

1:17:32

or three percent of sociopaths or psychopaths

1:17:34

will do that. It's like, nope. And

1:17:36

the fact that this did not provoke a

1:17:38

massive crisis in how children were raised tells

1:17:40

you that this is what society wants. Those

1:17:43

in charge love having the dumb

1:17:45

zombie horde to provoke and point

1:17:47

at. So look at COVID. So

1:17:49

you were on the receiving end

1:17:51

of this, right? Did you stay

1:17:53

unvaccinated? You did, I think. Sorry,

1:17:58

I just wanted to check because I remember you've got

1:18:00

fired for it. I'm asking. Okay,

1:18:02

so what did they say?

1:18:04

They said they didn't say, oh,

1:18:07

these people are concerned about the

1:18:09

long -term safety. They are upholding

1:18:11

the Nuremberg Code, which was developed

1:18:13

out of the Nazi and Japanese

1:18:15

torture of prisoners of war and

1:18:17

concentration camp victims and so on. They

1:18:20

wish to retain their bodily autonomy. They wish

1:18:22

to have more data, and

1:18:24

they wish to, my body, my

1:18:26

choice, right? Yeah,

1:18:29

if they had done that, people would have a

1:18:31

pretty tough time getting mad at the unvaccinated, right? So

1:18:35

how did they get people, you know

1:18:37

this, as well as I do, how

1:18:39

did they get people to hate and fear

1:18:41

the unvaccinated? They appealed to

1:18:43

their emotions, they said, you're going

1:18:45

to murder people. Yeah,

1:18:48

they're selfish people who won't do their part

1:18:50

and are killing your grandmother. Right.

1:18:53

Right? I mean... they also

1:18:55

tried to get people, I mean,

1:18:57

it was the biggest sigh up

1:18:59

in human history and everyone who

1:19:01

emerged unscathed or at least relatively

1:19:03

intact is like an absolute hero.

1:19:05

But they also said that it

1:19:08

is safe and effective. They don't

1:19:10

list the science. They're probably racist,

1:19:12

probably sexist and unthinking and so

1:19:14

on. And so they did and

1:19:16

they're putting you at risk. And

1:19:18

also the reason why you're locked

1:19:20

down is not because of the

1:19:22

government. But because of the unvaccinated.

1:19:25

And then they tried to scare the unvaccinated by

1:19:27

saying, you remember the Biden thing, a winter of

1:19:30

severe disease and death. And also

1:19:32

they were endless. I remember seeing

1:19:34

these things and actually kind of laughing

1:19:36

at them at the time. It's

1:19:38

like, oh, this guy was, he died.

1:19:40

He died from COVID and he's

1:19:42

got four children. And his last words

1:19:44

were, I wish I had just

1:19:46

gotten vaccinated. Yeah. What

1:19:48

a load of crap. It's just

1:19:50

a massive, like massive tsunami. Psyop,

1:19:53

right? Way more

1:19:55

like the Milgram experiment

1:19:57

was neutral, right?

1:19:59

The guys in the white coats didn't

1:20:02

say to the participants, you have to

1:20:04

do this. They said the experiment requires

1:20:06

that you continue. They never gave

1:20:08

them orders. Right. So

1:20:11

you get, you know, I don't know, I

1:20:13

don't remember the exact number, somewhere around two thirds.

1:20:15

Two thirds of people will do it, even

1:20:17

if a neutral person Is saying the experiment requires

1:20:20

that you continue not giving them not saying

1:20:22

you have to continue not punishing them if they

1:20:24

don't not rewarding them if they do just

1:20:26

giving a very neutral statement. That's

1:20:28

not even personal it's not even i want

1:20:30

you to sit the experiment. Require

1:20:32

so to that so with two

1:20:34

thirds of people with a neutral

1:20:36

statement right what number of people

1:20:38

with a massive concentrated psychological operation

1:20:41

that's way more right yeah. So

1:20:44

you say you were disillusioned

1:20:46

with society. over

1:20:48

COVID. But if you

1:20:50

knew about these experiments, and you knew about

1:20:52

your parents, you knew about your childhood, you

1:20:55

knew about your wife's parents and childhood, you

1:20:57

knew that nobody intervened and everybody sides with

1:20:59

the bad guys, right? Everybody

1:21:01

follows the propaganda, right? You've been a truth

1:21:03

teller, I assume, for most of your

1:21:05

adult life, and everybody knows you, you know.

1:21:08

So what are you trying

1:21:10

to say? You're disillusioned. It's

1:21:12

like you've seen, like

1:21:15

you're a zebra and you've seen 10

1:21:17

other zebras this week get mulled by

1:21:19

lions. And then you see

1:21:21

someone else get mulled by lions or a lion

1:21:23

chases you and like, man, I'm so disillusioned to

1:21:25

the lions. I remember

1:21:27

being surprised because

1:21:30

at work, you

1:21:32

know, they made us, they made a sign all

1:21:34

these contracts, you know, that you're going to follow the

1:21:36

guidelines. Sorry,

1:21:38

you just muttered there. All

1:21:41

of the guidelines. They

1:21:43

were trying to contractually bind us

1:21:45

into following guidelines put forth

1:21:47

by the governor. Yeah, and

1:21:49

that's for legal reasons, right? That may not even be in

1:21:51

specific choices, but I assume that would be to, I'm

1:21:53

no lawyer, but I assume that would be to limit legal

1:21:55

liability. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I never

1:21:58

signed that on purpose because I knew what they were

1:22:00

trying to do. And I

1:22:02

remember having a group email with

1:22:04

my colleagues at the time saying,

1:22:06

I cannot believe that this massive

1:22:08

infringement on our freedoms is happening. You

1:22:11

know, whatever happened to my

1:22:13

body, my choice. Sorry. That's bullshit,

1:22:15

man. You say you

1:22:17

cannot believe this mass. I mean, Jesus,

1:22:19

man, you ran for the Patriot Act. You

1:22:21

said you can't believe this massive infringement

1:22:23

on our rights. Why the fuck wouldn't you

1:22:26

believe that? Okay. I

1:22:28

was trying to muster up a group of people

1:22:30

to resist it is what I was trying to do.

1:22:32

Oh, so you were lying. I

1:22:34

was lying? How was I lying? You

1:22:36

said you can't believe this infringement on our rights.

1:22:39

Yeah. But of course you can

1:22:41

believe it. You can't,

1:22:43

okay. How old are you now? I'm

1:22:46

38. 38, okay. So

1:22:48

you're pushing 40. So

1:22:50

you were in your mid 30s during COVID. Yep.

1:22:54

And you're not a kid, right?

1:22:56

You're not 15, you're not

1:22:58

even 20. You're 35

1:23:00

years old. You've been an adult almost

1:23:02

as long as you were a

1:23:04

child. You've seen

1:23:06

All of the bullshit that people

1:23:08

mouth and talk about, right? All

1:23:11

the slogans that people repeat

1:23:13

absolutely unthinkingly. You saw

1:23:15

the constitution and other

1:23:18

legal quote protections in

1:23:20

the West be absolutely

1:23:22

shredded. And then

1:23:24

you're saying like, I can't, I

1:23:26

can't believe that they're taking away any

1:23:28

of our freedoms. So

1:23:30

why am I lying to myself?

1:23:33

No, I thought you were lying to other people. I

1:23:35

didn't say you were lying to yourself. I thought

1:23:37

you said you were trying to rouse people Okay, then

1:23:39

but yeah, I can't believe that. It's like that's

1:23:41

just a piece of rhetoric, but it's not true You're

1:23:43

an intelligent guy. You listen to this show. I

1:23:45

put you in the top 1 % of intelligence You're

1:23:47

a pattern recognition guy. You're a guy who didn't get

1:23:49

vaccinated. So the idea that

1:23:51

Governments would use an emergency to

1:23:53

try and take away your rights

1:23:55

cannot be incomprehensible to you. Come

1:23:57

on, man No, you're

1:23:59

right about that, but I mean

1:24:02

what that serial killer killed again

1:24:04

unthinkable. I

1:24:06

Don't I don't recall the exact

1:24:08

language, but I remember being

1:24:10

don't fuck out on me, bro

1:24:12

Don't don't don't give me

1:24:14

language to work with and then

1:24:16

back away from it. I'm

1:24:18

trying to help you because you

1:24:20

said I understood that you

1:24:22

were disillusioned yes over I was

1:24:25

That's how I felt at the

1:24:27

time looking around at everyone throwing

1:24:29

mass on nobody thinking about it.

1:24:31

Nobody putting the math in their

1:24:33

head. Why was that? Why was

1:24:35

that a shock to you? It's

1:24:38

a great question. I

1:24:40

want to say because I

1:24:42

wanted to believe people

1:24:44

were better and I think

1:24:46

up to that point

1:24:48

I had thought that people

1:24:50

would stand up. For

1:24:53

a gross violation. Well, and

1:24:55

that was again in Canada that

1:24:57

certainly was the case right

1:24:59

the the trucker protests is the

1:25:01

single most successful protest in

1:25:03

human history in my opinion because

1:25:05

and and people pay the

1:25:08

price for it, but yeah, I

1:25:10

mean it was The the

1:25:12

the restrictions were dismantled right after

1:25:14

that. It was absolutely incredible

1:25:16

So you mentioned the Patriot Act

1:25:18

the Patriot Act doesn't affect

1:25:20

your day -to -day life as an

1:25:22

American. So

1:25:25

my information shows up in a database

1:25:27

somewhere. I don't even know where that

1:25:29

database is. I don't think that's true.

1:25:31

I think that that's not true. So

1:25:33

think of the number of people who maybe

1:25:35

want to stand up and make their voice heard

1:25:37

and push back against tyranny, and

1:25:39

then think, oh my god, they've got all my

1:25:42

emails and text messages, like whatever they believe,

1:25:44

right? And they're like, OK, well, maybe

1:25:46

it's better not to. It's

1:25:48

the people who aren't. standing

1:25:50

up because they have some

1:25:52

skeevy stuff in their history. So

1:25:55

saying, well, it doesn't affect people. I

1:25:57

think it affects people all the time. It's

1:25:59

just that you don't really see it.

1:26:01

It's the people who aren't there that count.

1:26:03

That's my point. COVID was a very

1:26:05

obvious thing that you could see. You have

1:26:07

to put a mask on. You have

1:26:10

to go put a fluid in your body

1:26:12

versus information in a database. It was

1:26:14

a killer you could see. Right.

1:26:16

And still nobody's. Well,

1:26:18

and how many people have now

1:26:20

that sort of more information

1:26:22

is coming out and like all

1:26:24

of the, I mean now

1:26:26

even the authorities are saying, oh

1:26:29

yeah, no, it never really prevented infection and

1:26:31

transmission. So this is, you

1:26:34

know, even if people claim not to know this, you can send

1:26:36

them a link and they can read it in five minutes, right?

1:26:39

So how many people have circled back and

1:26:41

said, ooh, you know, sorry about that, man,

1:26:43

you were kind of right. Or I think

1:26:45

I got a little carried away there or

1:26:47

anything like that. Absolutely zero.

1:26:50

And there's no social reckoning. Right.

1:26:53

So is this the source of

1:26:56

my sadistic ideas? Well,

1:26:58

so the question is

1:27:00

trying to figure out

1:27:03

what this might so

1:27:05

being disappointed in someone

1:27:07

is often a precursor

1:27:09

to aggression. Okay.

1:27:12

Yeah. So maybe

1:27:14

you I mean, we all

1:27:16

have to process our negative

1:27:18

feelings towards society if we

1:27:21

think for ourselves. And

1:27:23

a big ass challenge, man. I still struggle with

1:27:25

it, be straight up, and I've been doing this

1:27:27

shit for over 40 years. So

1:27:30

we all have to

1:27:32

process our negative feelings towards

1:27:35

a society that is

1:27:37

stupid and dangerous and willfully

1:27:39

stupid and dangerous. Yeah,

1:27:41

it is willful. It's because we all have to

1:27:43

say, okay, well, if I tell the truth about, you

1:27:45

know, X, Y, and Z, there

1:27:48

are a lot of reactive, aggressive, dangerous

1:27:50

people who will try to hunt you

1:27:52

down. Yes. So

1:27:54

the truth makes you prey

1:27:56

and some as predators. Now,

1:27:58

our relationship to society as

1:28:00

a whole, that's just a

1:28:02

fact. And it started as children,

1:28:04

right? And you were abused as a kid. I was

1:28:06

abused as a kid. Society did smack all about it

1:28:09

and has shown, I mean, certainly me has shown me

1:28:11

no sympathy as an adult. Like even if people think

1:28:13

I'm some sort of bad guy, Nobody

1:28:15

disputes my childhood, right?

1:28:17

Violent mother, absent father, institutionalized, had to

1:28:20

pay my rent since I was 15,

1:28:22

and I'm right. So nobody has ever

1:28:24

said that's not true. So

1:28:26

society, even if they think that I'm some sort

1:28:28

of negative guy, never says, well,

1:28:30

but he didn't have a bad childhood, so let's

1:28:32

cut him some slack, right? Correct.

1:28:35

I mean, they will forgive like rapists

1:28:37

and murderers for their bad childhoods

1:28:39

and sometimes even let them out of

1:28:41

prison. or something like that, right?

1:28:43

But not me, right? And based on

1:28:45

their skin color, too. Yeah,

1:28:47

that certainly is that. Well, you know, there's been a history

1:28:49

of oppression, blah, blah, blah, right? So, so,

1:28:53

you know, even if somebody were to say,

1:28:55

well, staff is a misogynist, right? Which

1:28:57

is not true, of course, I live with

1:28:59

two wonderful females. But if then they

1:29:02

might say, yes, but remember, he was, you

1:29:04

know, brutalized and violently mistreated by multiple

1:29:06

women over the course of his childhood. Right.

1:29:10

Whereas you know a black guy who's bullied

1:29:12

by white people white kids and they say

1:29:14

he doesn't like white people say yes Well, but

1:29:16

they did bully him like so there's this

1:29:18

complete double standard, right? So so

1:29:20

we have to kind of

1:29:22

look at society for what

1:29:24

it is and say it's

1:29:26

full of dangerous NPCs easily

1:29:28

programmed to attack whoever the

1:29:30

rule is pointed Yes that

1:29:32

we're not surrounded by sovereign

1:29:34

thinking individuals in the way

1:29:36

that we are or the

1:29:38

way that the people around us

1:29:40

hopefully are. But we are

1:29:43

surrounded by robots that a switch

1:29:45

can be flipped and they

1:29:47

want us dead. Right.

1:29:50

So why was I

1:29:52

thinking that it's different? Well,

1:29:56

I mean, Part of

1:29:58

it is, you know, over the course of our

1:30:00

conversation, probably, I don't know, 300 people

1:30:02

have died in the world, right? Right.

1:30:05

Now, if one of those 300 people was someone

1:30:07

we were very close to, we'd stop the conversation

1:30:09

and like, so we, and, oh my God, I

1:30:11

got to deal with this and that's just so

1:30:13

sad and right. But so the

1:30:15

only way we survive when, you know,

1:30:17

100 people an hour die is to

1:30:19

not think about them. And

1:30:22

so part

1:30:24

of surviving in

1:30:27

a crazy world is to selectively

1:30:29

ignore the crazy which if i were

1:30:31

to do that would mean i

1:30:33

would ignore the vast majority of people

1:30:35

which i mean you do not

1:30:37

not just ignore like honestly i go

1:30:39

to the mall i don't sit

1:30:41

there and say these are significant predators

1:30:43

who would turn on me if

1:30:45

somebody pointed at me and said i

1:30:47

was a bad guy because i've

1:30:49

actually experienced that right i don't go

1:30:51

and play like a pickleball tournament

1:30:53

and say i'm playing with robot zombies.

1:30:55

easily programmed by evil doers to

1:30:57

hunt good people like dogs. I

1:30:59

just have to, hey, how

1:31:01

you doing? We have to

1:31:03

ignore that to some degree

1:31:05

just to live in the

1:31:08

world. Now, is

1:31:10

that being inauthentic? Basically,

1:31:13

you're putting on a mask for

1:31:15

the NPCs. I wouldn't say

1:31:17

it's inauthentic because I don't lie to

1:31:19

myself about that. Right

1:31:22

like like if I'm out walking and

1:31:24

there seems to be a dangerous dog

1:31:26

around I will curtail my walk and

1:31:28

and go home Right, right cuz not

1:31:30

worth the well. I mean the cost

1:31:32

benefit is just not worth it, right?

1:31:35

So You know no man can face a

1:31:37

dangerous dog and not think about it's

1:31:39

not sec, right? So

1:31:42

so I just I look at

1:31:44

the cost benefit and I go home

1:31:46

Now I don't lie to myself and

1:31:48

say well, I just don't feel like

1:31:50

walking anymore I

1:31:52

say, oh, that's a dangerous dog. So I'm

1:31:54

gonna change my behavior, right? Right.

1:31:58

So what I do is if I'm going

1:32:00

to play some sports tournament, I'll say these people

1:32:02

will probably be fun to play sports with.

1:32:04

But they would totally turn on me in

1:32:06

a moral battle if they were told to. Yeah.

1:32:10

That right there. So

1:32:12

me sending the email to

1:32:14

my colleague was me putting more

1:32:16

stock in there. It was

1:32:18

me lying to myself about them.

1:32:21

Because I well you were incorrect

1:32:23

right and and Lord knows we

1:32:25

all have to notice when we're

1:32:27

wrong I do it on a

1:32:30

and a continual basis, right? So

1:32:32

so we all so you had

1:32:34

a thesis or a theory that

1:32:36

your colleagues Would stand up rise

1:32:38

up join the good fight and

1:32:40

and at least verbally oppose the

1:32:42

encroachments upon liberties, right? Right

1:32:44

or at least you know

1:32:46

as a department. Hey, let's

1:32:48

push back and make the

1:32:50

overseers Squirm a little bit

1:32:52

has they trying make us

1:32:54

to do things that we

1:32:56

all know is BS. Okay,

1:32:58

so you had a theory

1:33:01

which was wrong Yes, now

1:33:03

have you processed that you

1:33:05

were wrong or have you

1:33:07

just blamed others? Hmm

1:33:09

So by what do you mean

1:33:11

by processing it? Well that you had

1:33:13

a thesis that was wrong. You

1:33:15

said I'm gonna get my colleagues or

1:33:18

co -workers to fight the good fight

1:33:20

with me And they didn't. So

1:33:22

just admit to myself that, yeah, you

1:33:24

were wrong. Move on. No,

1:33:26

I don't. You don't just move on from being wrong.

1:33:29

You process it. You figure out what did I

1:33:31

get wrong? What were my illusions? What

1:33:34

were my assumptions that were incorrect? I

1:33:37

have not done that about that. I

1:33:39

mean, if your breaks don't work and you

1:33:41

crash, you don't just get in the fucking

1:33:44

car again and drive off. You

1:33:46

say, shit, why did I crash? Oh, my

1:33:48

brakes don't work. Well, I got to get them

1:33:50

fixed. Yeah. Yeah,

1:33:52

so humility. Lord knows I've been wrong.

1:33:55

Hey, I've got colleagues. I'm sure they'll

1:33:57

stand by me when I get to

1:33:59