0:01

BBC Sounds, music

0:03

radio podcasts. Hello. Today,

0:06

amid Donald Trump's tariff war, we

0:08

hear from Chinese traders who claim

0:11

they can do just fine without

0:13

America's custom. We're in

0:15

Romania as it prepares for a second

0:18

attempt at a general election, after last

0:20

year's vote was called off following claims

0:22

of Russian interference. In

0:25

Bolivia we meet the miners working

0:27

in a centuries -old mine shrouded

0:29

in myth and legend, situated in

0:31

one of the world's highest cities,

0:34

and finally to Rome, where

0:36

cardinals can be seen in

0:38

hushed conversation at the city's

0:40

trattoriae, before the papal conclave

0:42

begins next week. But

0:45

first Israel's war in Gaza, more

0:47

than a year and a half

0:49

long, grinds on. Since

0:51

Israel broke the ceasefire in the

0:53

middle of March, more than 2

0:55

,000 Palestinians have been killed according

0:57

to the Hamas -run Gaza Health

0:59

Ministry. Meanwhile, 59

1:02

Israeli hostages remain in

1:04

Gaza. But the

1:06

resumption of war has also spurred

1:08

protests among both Israelis and Palestinians

1:11

desperate for the conflict to end.

1:14

These have taken different forms and involved

1:16

taking very different risks as

1:18

our correspondent Paul Adams reports.

1:21

In the week that saw Israel remember

1:24

its fallen soldiers, and then

1:26

the following day celebrate its independence,

1:29

the war in Gaza cast a long

1:31

shadow. It's been almost

1:33

19 months, almost the longest

1:35

war in Israel's turbulent 77

1:37

year history. A war

1:39

it didn't seek, but seems unwilling or

1:42

unable to stop. And

1:44

for Palestinians, bombed, harried, driven

1:46

this way and that, scrambling every

1:48

day just to survive, a

1:50

disaster beyond imagination, a

1:52

war they also did not seek but which

1:54

will not let them go. On

1:57

both sides people are saying to those driving

1:59

this please stop.

2:02

For the past month anger has

2:05

boiled over in Israel and Gaza,

2:07

a simultaneous but entirely separate set

2:09

of protests by people taking different

2:11

risks but looking to achieve the

2:13

same goal, relief. In

2:16

Israel, where anti -war protests have clogged

2:18

the streets of Tel Aviv practically every

2:20

week for well over a year, it's

2:23

been a month of open letters. From

2:25

veterans and reservists representing practically every

2:28

branch of the military, starting with

2:30

the air force but moving on

2:32

to the infantry, special forces, navy,

2:34

even the army's elite intelligence unit.

2:37

Thousands of men and women, some

2:39

with decades of experience, calling on

2:41

the Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to

2:43

do whatever it takes to bring

2:46

home the remaining 59 Israeli hostages,

2:48

even if that means stopping the

2:50

war. Mr Netanyahu has

2:52

reacted furiously, accusing the signatories of

2:55

encouraging Israel's enemies and dismissing them

2:57

as a bunch of anarchists and

3:00

pensioners. But the soft

3:02

-spoken, idealistic reservist I met in

3:04

a leafy Jerusalem park a couple

3:06

of weeks back, was anything but.

3:08

He said he'd had no hesitation reporting

3:10

for duty in the wake of the

3:13

Hamas attacks of October the 7th. I

3:15

believed I was doing something good, he

3:17

told me, describing his deployment to Gaza

3:19

last summer. Complicated, but

3:21

good. But the

3:23

longer the war went on, the more

3:26

his misgivings grew about the methods used

3:28

and the goals being sought. I'm a

3:30

patriot," he insisted, a Zionist, but I

3:32

believe in peace. The war

3:35

is cynical, political, he said, more

3:37

about Benjamin Netanyahu's desire to cling

3:39

to power than an effort to

3:41

bring the hostages home. We

3:43

spoke on condition that we didn't

3:45

identify him. He felt he was taking

3:48

a risk that foreigners might assume he

3:50

was guilty of war crimes, while Israelis

3:52

seeing him talking to the BBC

3:54

would accuse him of airing Israel's dirty

3:57

laundry in public. But

3:59

Israel, whatever else you might think, is

4:01

still a democracy. Most Israelis

4:03

are free to speak out most

4:05

of the time about most issues.

4:07

They have the right. They exercise

4:09

it noisily and with passion. In

4:12

Gaza, it's very different, which makes

4:14

the past few weeks all the more remarkable.

4:17

Hamas may have been elected to

4:19

power, but that was almost 20

4:21

years ago. Since then, the group

4:24

has ruled with an iron rod,

4:26

crushing dissent, beating, jailing, and sometimes

4:28

killing its opponents. But

4:30

since March, gardens have taken to

4:33

the streets, in groups large

4:35

and small, voicing fury at an

4:37

organisation many increasingly see as responsible

4:39

for bringing about this calamity, demanding

4:42

that Hamas hand over the

4:44

remaining hostages, or better still, just

4:46

leave. Out. Out, out,

4:48

they chant. Such voices

4:50

have been heard before, but rarely

4:53

in such numbers, rarely so openly.

4:56

The risks are enormous. Towards

4:58

the end of March, one protester,

5:00

22 -year -old Odei Arrubai, published

5:03

a haunting video on social media.

5:05

He said Hamas were coming after

5:07

him. They've destroyed us and

5:09

brought ruin, he said. Gaza

5:11

has become a city of ghosts. A

5:14

few days later, O'Day was dead, his

5:16

broken body delivered back to his family.

5:19

The Palestinian Independent Commission for Human Rights

5:22

said O'Day had been tortured and called

5:24

his death a grey violation of the

5:26

right to life and an extrajudicial killing,

5:29

the price of speaking out. But

5:32

Mouman al -Natur, a Gaza lawyer and

5:34

longtime critic of Hamas, seems undaunted. He

5:37

spoke to us on camera from his

5:39

home in Gaza. We need to speak

5:41

out, he said, to take a risk.

5:43

Hamas came to power when Mouman was

5:45

just 11, the years since

5:48

had been dominated by war and

5:50

violence. By life, he said, has

5:52

been wasted. Humanity demands that we

5:54

raise our voices. wasted

5:57

lives and the urgent need to

5:59

speak out. It's what's driving people,

6:01

Palestinians and Israelis, to

6:03

confront their respective risks and demand

6:06

that this ruinous war finally end.

6:09

Paul Adams. Next, as

6:11

Donald Trump marked 100 days in

6:14

office this week, Beijing

6:16

published a slick video in which it

6:18

called on the world to stand up

6:20

to American bullying. China's

6:23

manufacturing sector saw a sharp

6:25

contraction this month as trade

6:27

between the world's two leading

6:29

economies continues to stutter. Major

6:32

retailers in the US have

6:34

warned the White House that

6:36

American customers could face empty

6:38

shelves in the coming weeks

6:40

if the 145 % tariffs

6:42

remain in place. Our China

6:44

correspondent Laura Bicker has been

6:46

to the world's largest wholesale

6:48

market to find out how

6:50

Chinese traders are holding up.

6:53

Twinkling fairy lights and flashing

6:55

Santas illuminate a labyrinth of

6:57

halls in just one corner

6:59

of the world's biggest wholesale

7:02

market. If you've ever bought

7:04

a fake tree or a laughing gnome,

7:06

it likely came from here. Iwu

7:09

is a city in the eastern

7:11

province of Jijiang, a manufacturing and

7:13

export hub which is home to

7:15

more than 30 ports and accounted

7:17

for around 17 % of all

7:19

Chinese sales to the US last

7:21

year. The market is

7:23

a vast showroom where buyers come

7:26

from all over the world looking

7:28

for just about anything from snow

7:30

globes to massage guns. We

7:32

wandered into one corner that felt

7:35

like an endless Christmas grotto, strung

7:37

with every colour of tinsel and

7:39

sparkling snowflakes. Alongside were

7:42

aisles filled with decorations for

7:44

another popular American celebration, Halloween.

7:47

A Donald Trump mask sat between

7:50

that of a zombie and Frankenstein.

7:52

It's quite popular, said the saleswoman. Another

7:55

rep spotted us and offered as a

7:57

seat while she whipped out her order

7:59

book. Look, look, she said, I have

8:02

so few orders from the US now.

8:04

Most of my stock now goes to South America.

8:07

I could see she was trying to

8:09

figure out how honest to be with

8:12

us, as we're being followed by local

8:14

officials monitoring our conversations, a

8:16

regular occurrence when reporting in China. But

8:19

she decided just to speak her mind.

8:22

Donald Trump is pretty crazy. Why is

8:24

he doing this? She asked. We'll

8:26

lose money, yes, maybe 10, maybe 20

8:29

% of our business, but we will

8:31

adapt. We've been here before. Other

8:34

traders told us the same thing. They

8:36

would take a hit, but they could

8:38

survive without the US. Things

8:41

changed here during Mr Trump's first

8:43

trade war with China, which kicked

8:45

off in 2018. It taught

8:47

the traders of Iwu a lesson

8:49

that they needed to find new

8:51

markets. Many of them

8:53

told me they are learning Spanish

8:55

and Arabic to complement their English.

8:58

In the last few weeks, my team

9:00

and I have travelled to several trade fairs

9:02

and talked to various businesses on the

9:04

phone to try to assess the impact of

9:07

this new chapter. The message

9:09

is always one of defiance. Bowing

9:12

to a bully is like drinking poison

9:14

to quench thirst. It only deepens the

9:16

crisis. Beijing declared in a

9:19

government video published on Donald Trump's 100th

9:21

day in office. History

9:23

has proven compromise won't earn

9:25

you mercy. Kneeling only

9:27

invites more bullying. China

9:30

won't kneel down, it added. But

9:32

behind this bold rhetoric, Chinese businesses

9:35

are dealing with the harsh reality

9:37

of high tariffs, which are beginning

9:40

to cause some pain in a

9:42

country already grappling with several economic

9:44

challenges. Some traders have told

9:47

the BBC that exports meant for

9:49

American households are piling up in

9:51

warehouses. One supplier told us

9:53

he had half a million pieces

9:55

of clothing waiting to ship to

9:57

America's biggest retailer Walmart. Still,

10:00

Beijing is betting that American

10:02

consumers will feel the absence

10:04

of Chinese goods or face

10:06

paying higher prices. The

10:09

US still relies heavily on

10:11

Chinese manufacturing to meet its

10:13

own domestic demand. Retail

10:15

giants Walmart and Target reportedly told

10:17

Mr Trump in a meeting last

10:20

week that shoppers are likely to

10:22

see empty shelves and higher prices

10:24

from next month. In

10:27

turn, the Trump administration appears to

10:29

have misjudged the scale of China's

10:31

economic problems and hoped President Xi

10:33

would be desperate to make a

10:35

quick deal. Economic growth

10:37

here has slowed. In fact, growth is

10:39

slower now than any time in the

10:42

last three decades. but it

10:44

is far from falling into recession.

10:46

Indeed, this crisis provides President Xi

10:48

with a ready -made excuse for

10:51

an ailing economy. From now

10:53

on, he can blame the US for any

10:55

economic pain. Back in the

10:57

halls of IWU's wholesale market, our

10:59

team wander into the toy department,

11:01

where we have to raise our

11:04

voices above a cacophony of singing

11:06

dolls, squeaking toy dogs

11:08

and buzzing robots. The

11:10

local officials have found another journalist to

11:12

monitor. And finally, we get to speak

11:15

to traders without being watched. America

11:17

must need China, insists one, while

11:20

gesturing to an array of fluffy

11:22

stuffed toys and dolls. Later,

11:25

another trader admits that the

11:27

US and China might indeed

11:29

need one another. But

11:31

he wouldn't say how much. Now

11:35

to Romania, which returns to

11:37

the polls this weekend following

11:39

the cancellation of presidential elections

11:41

last December. Back then,

11:44

the country's constitutional court annulled

11:46

the first round of voting

11:48

just 48 hours before a

11:51

run -off vote was set

11:53

to begin. The decision came

11:55

after a far -right candidate,

11:57

Kaleen Drogescu, shot unexpectedly into

12:00

the lead, fuelling allegations of

12:02

Russian interference, claims Moscow has

12:04

dismissed. This political

12:06

chaos left a sour taste

12:09

among voters of various persuasions,

12:11

as Tessa Dunlop discovered in

12:13

Bucharest. sporting

12:18

designer stubble and drinking a Leffer

12:20

beer in his attractive 1930s Bucharest

12:22

home. After a lifetime of activism,

12:25

not much knocks him off his

12:27

stride, but of one thing he

12:29

is certain, Romania has just

12:31

had a near miss. It

12:34

wasn't pretty, and critics insist it

12:36

was undemocratic, but according

12:38

to Mercer, the cancellation of

12:40

the December presidential election was

12:42

essential. Had populist outrider Kalin

12:44

Giojescu been allowed to win

12:46

the final round, he says

12:48

the implications for Romania, the

12:51

EU and NATO, would have been

12:53

huge. Mircea is a

12:55

member of Romania's National Audiovisual

12:57

Council, one of

12:59

the organisations which flagged potential

13:01

outside interference in Romania's digital

13:03

sphere during the first round

13:05

of the election campaign. Just

13:07

two days before the final

13:09

round of voting, when presented

13:11

with declassified intelligence documents, Romania's

13:14

constitutional court cancelled the

13:16

entire election. It's due

13:18

to be rerun on the 4th of May,

13:21

a contest from which far -right

13:23

frontrunner George Escu has been disqualified.

13:26

He's now under investigation for

13:28

offences ranging from fascist associations

13:30

to falsified campaign finances, though

13:33

he's repeatedly denied any wrongdoing. We're

13:36

at war, explains Mercer. He's

13:39

alluding to both Russian interference and

13:41

the conflict that rages beyond Romania's

13:43

border in Ukraine. There

13:46

are different rules in war. Did not

13:48

Britain have censorship in World War II?

13:50

He insists. But

13:52

today, censorship and democracy are

13:54

concepts challenged by new, fast

13:56

-evolving frontiers online and on

13:58

social media. According to

14:00

Mercer, Romania's fledgling democracy

14:03

is particularly vulnerable in the

14:05

face of miss and disinformation.

14:08

Romania's former communist dictator Nicolae

14:10

Ceausescu's brutal rule left no

14:13

space for independent thought or

14:15

media discernment. After the

14:17

1989 revolution the country had some

14:19

catching up to do and then

14:22

along came the internet. Scroll

14:24

forward 35 years to a

14:26

spring afternoon in 2025 and

14:28

Bucharest's Victory Square Piazza Victoria,

14:31

home to numerous recent protests, is

14:34

relatively quiet. There's a limp

14:36

flag, a couple of tents, and

14:38

a poster decrying the constitutional court

14:41

and the former pro -EU president

14:43

behind the decision to cancel Romania's

14:46

December election. A handful of hardcore

14:48

protesters are marking time. One

14:50

gives me a white rose, the other

14:53

agrees to an interview. Pietri,

14:55

a man in his fifties, he's well

14:57

turned out in pressed jeans and leather

14:59

shoes, despite several nights in a tent,

15:01

and he's indignant. I'm upset about

15:03

the cancelled election in December. It's

15:05

a huge abuse from the High Court. Pietri

15:08

explains he didn't vote for Kalin

15:10

Georgescu in the first round, but

15:12

in this second presidential election he

15:14

WILL vote for the leading, hard

15:17

-right candidate, Georgie Simeon, because

15:19

he's so angry. The democratic

15:21

will of the people was denied. Two

15:23

million voters were ignored. We

15:25

record a brief interaction together on our

15:27

phones, and I bid him and his

15:30

comrades farewell. Later that

15:32

evening, my Bucharest landlady texts me

15:34

out of the blue. You met

15:36

Petri, she exclaims. I discover she's

15:38

not a personal friend of his,

15:40

but rather follows Petri on TikTok.

15:43

I check my phone. He's posted

15:45

our exchange. It's already clocked up

15:47

seventy thousand views. Earlier that

15:50

afternoon he was one of just five

15:52

people protesting in Victory Square. But in

15:54

our brave new world, Petri is a

15:57

rising social media star. He's

15:59

not a Russian bot. He's a

16:01

very angry activist in democratic Romania. One

16:04

of many whose fury has

16:06

bolstered ultra -nationalist Georgie Simeon's

16:08

chances in Sunday's election. This

16:11

self -styled man and presidential

16:13

favourite announced his candidacy after

16:15

Georgescu was barred and is

16:18

at best equivocal about Romania's

16:20

membership of NATO and the

16:22

EU. I think back

16:24

to my interview with Merce Toma

16:26

and his absolute certainty that Romania

16:28

was and still is fighting a

16:30

cyber war with an external Russian

16:32

enemy. And I wonder

16:34

how it is that both Petri

16:36

and Merce are fighting on different

16:39

sides but want the same thing,

16:41

a democratic, secure Romania. Back

16:43

in London, a couple of weeks later,

16:45

I check in with Petri's progress. He

16:48

assures his followers that with the help

16:50

of God, Duamna Ajuta, they will succeed.

16:53

But in Romania, a

16:55

country of great faith and mighty

16:57

algorithms, exactly what that

17:00

success will look like is anyone's

17:02

guess. The

17:05

Bolivian city of Potosí was once

17:07

a major economic centre of the

17:09

Spanish Empire, thanks to the discovery

17:12

of a mountain of silver in

17:14

the century. Once

17:16

an isolated Incan hamlet, the

17:19

area was transformed into a bustling

17:21

city that became home to more

17:24

than 150 ,000 people, as Peruvian

17:26

and African workers were brought in

17:28

and forced to work down Spanish

17:31

mines. The mountain, the Cerro Rico,

17:34

is still mined today, mostly for

17:36

zinc and tin, but

17:38

the land has become unstable and

17:40

the city a shell of what

17:42

it once was, as Caroline Lamberley

17:45

discovered. My forehead is

17:47

burning, and every atom in my body

17:49

feels like a weight is trying to

17:51

push it down. I arrived

17:53

in Boutoussi the previous night. At

17:55

roughly 13 ,000 feet above sea

17:57

level, it's one of the highest

17:59

cities in the world. Silver was

18:01

discovered here in the 1500s, and

18:03

quickly, Potosí became the economic

18:06

center of the former Spanish empire. Legend

18:09

has it that there was once so

18:11

much silver in Cerro Rico, literally the

18:13

rich mountain, that you could build a

18:15

silver bridge from Potosí to Spain. Cerro

18:19

Rico towers above Potosí like a

18:21

guardian angel, but it's got a

18:23

dark history. Those who

18:25

went to work in the Cerro knew

18:27

that they would probably never come back,

18:30

Jacinto. a longtime resident tells me. One

18:32

of the streets running through the middle of the town

18:34

leads straight to the mountain. Back in

18:36

the days of the Spanish, people used to

18:38

call it the Calle de los Lamentos, the

18:41

street of laments. Stay

18:43

here long enough, and you'll hear

18:45

all sorts of hair -raising, supernatural

18:47

stories. There's still plenty

18:49

of human misery, as well as human

18:52

effort, here today. Centuries

18:54

after the Spanish left, the cerro

18:56

is still full of precious metals and minerals. Before

18:59

even setting foot in Potosi, I

19:01

had ran off the main attraction, a

19:03

tour inside the mines, mainly because

19:05

I'm claustrophobic. By day

19:08

two, my altitude sickness has completely

19:10

subsided, so I step out, ready

19:12

to explore. A fellow

19:14

guest at my hostel convinces me to go to

19:16

Porco, another mining town, around an

19:18

hour away. It's mid -morning

19:20

and the sun is beating down when we

19:22

get there. The first person we bump into

19:24

is wearing a cap that says, Responsible

19:28

mining. He's standing just

19:30

outside of mineshaft. He tells me he's got

19:32

his own company and that he gives his

19:34

workers a percentage of the earnings. This

19:37

mountain is not like Cerorico, which has

19:40

been totally destroyed by centuries of mining,

19:42

he says. Here in

19:44

Porco, parts of the mountain are still

19:46

sound. Further up the slopes,

19:49

there's a small yellow chapel. The

19:51

main entrance is covered in black

19:53

streaks. The blood of llamas left

19:55

as a sacrifice. to the mountain.

19:58

People in this region believe in a deity

20:00

called El Tillo, which literally translates as the

20:02

uncle, but he's more like a

20:05

god of the underworld. Miners

20:07

bring him offerings in the hope he'll

20:09

give them his protection in return. We

20:12

bump into another miner. He's very drunk, and

20:14

I can hardly make out any word he's

20:16

saying, whether he's on his way

20:18

to work or coming back home. People

20:20

here are big drinkers. It's

20:23

the only way to cope with working in

20:25

the mines, people tell me. We come across

20:27

Enrique. He's in his 50s,

20:30

but looks years older. He's from

20:32

Bolivia's capital, La Paz, and he's been coming

20:34

to work in the mines in Porco for

20:36

the past 10 years. He

20:38

stays in Porco for a few months at a

20:40

time, and when he's made enough money, he goes back

20:42

home for a bit. We sit down

20:44

and chat. He tells me about his kids. One

20:47

of them is a lawyer. The other, a

20:50

housewife. As Enrique gets ready to

20:52

go back underground, I catch a ride

20:54

with some miners who've just come off shift. and are

20:56

heading back to the center of Porco. Next

20:58

to me is a guy who's covered in

21:00

dust. He keeps nodding off. In

21:03

town, we grab some lunch, get on another

21:05

minibus, and make a stop at some hot

21:07

springs. By the time

21:09

we're done, it's getting late and there's no buses

21:12

in sight, so we hitch another ride to return

21:14

to Putusi. I clamor into

21:16

the back of the car. Next to me is

21:18

Simon, a miner from the city of Cochabamba, and

21:20

his son Yonatan, who's just turned six. I've

21:23

only just been able to leave Kuchabamba

21:25

yesterday, Simon tells me. Bolivia is known

21:28

for its protests and roadblocks, and the

21:30

past weeks are no exception. As

21:33

we speed along, young Yonatan insists on

21:35

covering me with his blanket. He's

21:37

going on about searching for precious stones

21:40

with a lupa and loose, a magnifying

21:42

glass and a torch. By

21:44

now, we've returned back to Putusi, and I catch

21:46

a glimpse of one of the statues in town.

21:49

It shows a miner standing proudly. holding

21:51

a rifle in one hand and a

21:53

drill in the other. It's

21:55

as though he's keeping watch over the

21:57

city. Veteran

22:12

BBC Vatican correspondent David Willey

22:14

has been watching closely the

22:16

lively lobbying taking place, as

22:18

church leaders deliberate what kind

22:20

of leader they want to

22:23

take over the running of

22:25

this milleniary institution. This

22:27

will be the fifth paper election

22:29

that I reported on, and there's

22:32

already the usual febrile speculation about

22:34

possible winners. The bookmaker's

22:36

favourite, I'm told, is Cardinal Parolin,

22:39

Pope Francis' former number

22:41

two, a rather uncharismatic

22:43

Italian. but the field

22:46

remains wide open. My

22:48

own tip, which I hesitate to

22:50

announce, would be to look for

22:52

the chances of another Italian, possibly

22:54

one with a background of love

22:57

for the poor and competence in

22:59

high -level international diplomacy. The

23:01

rather theatrical and arcane ritual

23:04

of a Vatican conclave, the

23:06

secretive method chosen by the Catholic

23:08

Church to elect a successor when

23:11

a pope dies or retires, has

23:13

a long and fascinating history. Pope

23:16

watchers expect this year's conclave to

23:18

last only two or three days.

23:21

But back in the Middle Ages,

23:23

papal elections often had to be

23:25

held outside a turbulent Rome for

23:28

security reasons. This longest

23:30

enclave ever held, took place in

23:33

Viterbo towards the end of the

23:35

13th century. It went on for

23:37

nearly three years. Finally,

23:39

losing patience, the authorities

23:42

decided to start removing the roof

23:44

of the building, sheltering the church

23:46

leaders. They were reigned upon as

23:48

they debated and prayed endlessly to,

23:50

as they said, let in the

23:52

Holy Spirit to guide them. Their

23:55

rations were reduced to a diet of

23:57

bread and water, and eventually their choice

24:00

fell on an Italian cleric who happened

24:02

to be taking part in the Crusades

24:04

in the Holy Land. It

24:07

took months more for news of his

24:09

election to arrive in Jerusalem and for

24:11

him to travel to Rome. Only

24:14

19 cardinals, practically all of

24:16

them Italian and French, took

24:18

part in that long -winded

24:20

medieval Viterbo vote. This month,

24:22

more than 130 red -robed

24:24

prelates from around the world

24:26

will fill up their balloting

24:28

slips in the Sistine Chapel,

24:30

voting four times a day,

24:32

until one of the candidates

24:34

reaches a 75 % majority.

24:37

For the first time in

24:39

history, the Global South is

24:41

widely represented in the Electoral

24:43

College. Italians and Europeans still

24:45

dominate, but the election of

24:47

the first ever pope from

24:49

Africa or Asia may be

24:51

looming. The first ever

24:53

cardinals from Asia were appointed only

24:56

eight years ago, while the first

24:58

African bishop to get his red

25:00

hat was a mere 60 years

25:03

ago, though there's some historical debate

25:05

about the geographical leadership of the

25:07

very earliest years of the church.

25:10

Today, 60 % of papal voters

25:12

come from outside Europe. The

25:15

trot areas and restaurants around

25:17

the Vatican are packed every

25:19

evening with tourists and pilgrims,

25:21

but also cardinals and their

25:23

supporters sitting in corners discussing

25:26

voting tactics in low voices.

25:28

Among them, I recognized the

25:31

former ally of Donald Trump,

25:33

Steve Bannon, who's also a

25:35

conservative Catholic and outspoken critic

25:37

of Pope Francis. The

25:40

pre -conclave power has been

25:42

dominated by the decision of

25:44

one Italian cardinal to recuse

25:47

himself after being sentenced to

25:49

imprisonment. by a Vatican court

25:51

for financial fraud, and

25:53

by the refusal of another cardinal

25:56

from Peru to obey a papal

25:58

edict banning him from attending Vatican

26:01

meetings after being accused of sexual

26:03

abuse of adolescence. Both

26:05

church leaders deny the charges

26:07

against them. But the discussions

26:09

I've been told about between

26:11

cardinals running up to the

26:13

actual vote suggest disappointment that

26:16

the church has tended to

26:18

treat pedophile priests more leniently

26:20

than those accused of financial

26:22

crimes. This does not

26:24

go down well at a particularly

26:26

divisive moment when the Catholic Church

26:29

is increasingly split by those wanting

26:31

to continue the reforms begun by

26:34

Pope Francis and the traditionalists. The

26:37

rift has been particularly strong

26:39

in the United States. Many

26:41

Catholic diocese there have been

26:43

bankrupted after paying out huge

26:45

sums to victims of pedophile

26:47

priests. Yet six out

26:49

of nine members of the US

26:52

Supreme Court are Catholics. Vice

26:54

President Vance, a recent convert

26:57

to Catholicism, visited the Vatican,

26:59

had an exchange of views with top

27:02

Vatican officials, and saw

27:04

Pope Francis briefly the very

27:06

day before he died. Americans

27:08

remain perhaps the biggest single

27:10

contributors to Vatican finances, which

27:12

have fallen increasingly into the

27:14

red during the past three

27:16

financial years, and, well, money

27:18

talks, even though it's

27:21

unlikely to buy a papal election.

27:23

The next pope is unlikely to be an

27:26

American. And

27:28

that's all for today, but you

27:31

can hear more stories on the

27:33

From Our Own Correspondent podcast on

27:35

BBC Sounds, including a dispatch from

27:37

California, where the threat of wildfires

27:40

and sky -high home insurance is

27:42

forcing locals to leave. We'll

27:45

be back again next Saturday morning. Do

27:47

join us! I'm David

27:49

Dimbleby and from the History Podcast and BBC Radio

27:51

4, this is Invisible Hands. The story of the

27:54

free market revolution. The free market

27:56

isn't solving the problem of

27:58

homelessness. Classic liberal values

28:00

of free speech, free enterprise,

28:02

free markets. A hidden

28:04

force that changed Britain forever. Popular

28:06

capitalism is a crusade. And

28:08

the invisible hands that

28:10

shaped it. I thought I

28:12

was a conservative. I thought I

28:14

was a conservative. There's

28:16

a massive schism between those

28:19

who believe in the continuity

28:21

of our society and

28:23

those who wish to destroy

28:25

it. Listen to Invisible Hands

28:27

on BBC Science Now.