0:24

Hello and welcome to

0:26

From the Rookery End.

0:28

I'm Dave walking away

0:30

from Ewood Park after

0:32

Blackburn Rovers 2, Watford

0:35

1. Our final away game

0:37

of the season. The

0:39

weather is very much not final away

0:41

game of the season weather and

0:43

the game wasn't much better. I'm with

0:45

Charlie from WD18. Charlie wasn't a

0:47

classic was it as far as Watford

0:49

is concerned? Certainly wasn't a classic.

0:51

I think when Lewin scored that late

0:53

goal today it set the tone. and

0:56

today's game was really

0:58

disappointing. Bit of hope, but I

1:00

think we've just run out of steam, Dave. We

1:03

certainly have. It's a bit of a weird

1:05

one, isn't it? Because we go into that

1:07

game today, knowing that our season's over, we

1:10

are... mathematically long

1:12

since out of the playoffs to the

1:14

surprise of some Blackburn fans actually in the

1:16

pub before the game just down the

1:18

road from Ewood Park we got talking to

1:20

a Blackburn fan he couldn't believe that

1:22

we weren't still in contention for the playoffs

1:24

and I had to say I'm sorry

1:26

mate we're actually 11 points off of two

1:28

games to go so it's not even

1:30

close but in terms of it being

1:32

the last away game of the season

1:34

you want to try and have a

1:36

bit of fun with it but We're

1:39

really in bad shape at the moment. All of

1:41

our best players are injured. We've still

1:43

got suspensions. Soco, we're still suspending today.

1:45

Cleambe came back, a really thin bench that

1:47

we had to make use of today.

1:49

And it was, you know, look,

1:51

we went one nil up, but it just, it

1:53

really does have all the hallmarks of this other

1:55

season that has not even petered

1:57

out, long since petered out.

2:00

And it's, you know, it was, it was difficult. Like

2:02

I said, I just think we've properly,

2:04

properly run out of steam. And when you're

2:06

looking at Tom Cleverly's substitutes at the

2:09

end, I think James Morris got

2:11

injured, brought him for Sierra Altar. We've

2:13

got Mazzara Edwards on the end, Bayo

2:15

came under the end and we're really, really

2:17

struggling for any kind of cohesion, any

2:19

kind of team. I mean, the game for

2:21

me was pretty grim, wasn't it? We

2:23

took the lead, which was a surprise. We

2:25

had a good celebration, which is the

2:27

highlight of the day, but... I don't

2:29

think Blackburn were too much better than

2:31

us due Dave but they got two decisive

2:34

moments in Cantwell and Dolan who were

2:36

probably just that bit of quality that we

2:38

never had and we just didn't have

2:40

anything else to counter any chance and people

2:42

might look at our run of form

2:44

and think Tom Cleverley hasn't done well when

2:46

we've fallen off a cliff but I

2:48

just think we've evened ourselves out after the

2:50

start the season where we're picking up

2:52

results where we didn't deserve them but now

2:55

the squad's thin and we're not getting the

2:57

results even though we might look much more

2:59

of a team. I'm going to come

3:01

back to that point on Tom Cleverly because we were

3:03

talking about that on the on the rattler from

3:05

Manchester here on the way here today but yeah as

3:08

you say we weren't one nil up today. From

3:10

a set piece, which is relatively rare for us this

3:12

season, Matty Pollock gets his head on the corner at

3:14

start the second half, and it was one of those

3:16

where the ball went over the line, but the keeper

3:18

got something on it, so we weren't sure in the

3:21

stands whether it had gone in, and the referee looks

3:23

at the watch, points to the centre spot, and then,

3:25

you know, we have a nice little celebration. I

3:27

was trying to think, is that better? Like, did

3:29

you think in that little moment where, and I'm clutching

3:31

here, I'm clutching the straws for any positives I can

3:33

find, but the fact that we weren't sure that

3:36

it went in, and then we get the moment, it

3:38

sort of made it a little bit better, didn't

3:40

it? I enjoyed it look you need to take what

3:42

you can in these away days and yeah that

3:44

little moment that little two seconds off did it go

3:46

in? Is it over? Is it over? Is it

3:48

over? I mean the ref just pointed back we had

3:50

a really good moment and that's all you want

3:52

in away days and when you're playing a team like

3:54

Blackburn who I don't know what you thought Dave

3:57

but I thought they were very very average and those

3:59

fans now are clutching onto a tiny bit of

4:01

play of hope but well you say

4:03

tiny right and this is the thing I

4:05

was chatting to a Blackburn fan in

4:07

the pub before friend of mine and We

4:10

were watching Luton against Coventry and there

4:12

were quite a few, there was quite a

4:14

few Watford fans in the pub just

4:16

down the road from Ewood in the Fernhurst

4:18

and you know the Blackburn fans for

4:20

most the game weren't really interested but then

4:22

all of a sudden when he got

4:24

to the latter stages and Luton scored the

4:26

Blackburn fans started cheering and then that

4:28

sort of reminded us all that they want

4:30

Luton to win because they were playing Coventry.

4:33

and Combs, you can still get in the

4:35

playoffs. Blackburn, somehow after this game, are only

4:37

one point away from the playoffs, same as

4:39

Millwall. And I think it does emphasise, you

4:41

know, the standard of

4:43

the division this year is not

4:45

great. But enough about

4:47

the opponents and about

4:49

that. Let's go back to what you

4:51

were just saying about Tom Cleverly. So on

4:54

the way here today, we were sort of having a bit

4:56

of a discussion, and I think this discussion has been

4:59

top of mind for a lot of Watford

5:01

fans in the last few weeks. If

5:03

you look at the form table, we are

5:05

right down there from Boxing Day onwards. We're one

5:07

of the worst teams in division in terms

5:09

of the form. Today hasn't helped

5:11

that. But there are

5:13

some mitigating circumstances, maybe. The injuries,

5:15

the suspensions, the general

5:17

lack of strength in the squad. You

5:19

turned to me just towards the end

5:21

of the game when Tom Cleverley's raging. How

5:25

do you... What do you

5:27

think Tom Cleverley... thinking at the moment where's

5:29

his mind at at the moment and then

5:32

also what do you think about about Tom

5:34

and the job that he's done do you

5:36

think it's fair that there are some fans

5:38

now who are starting to look at him

5:40

and go hmm is he doing a good

5:42

job I think he's thinking I cannot wait

5:44

to get away on holiday to Venice whether

5:46

he's going to be employed or not is

5:48

a different conversation which I don't really want

5:51

to bring up but other people haven't I've

5:53

always stood firm and think he's done a

5:55

great job and it's all about context for

5:57

me stretch back when you and

5:59

Mike had a podcast from the Rookery

6:01

End and sort of said about the diastrates

6:03

we were in last summer right outside

6:05

the railway we were we were talking in

6:07

quite negative terms about the whole season

6:09

and what Tom's done with the squad days

6:11

had and when I looked at the

6:13

plays that are on the pitch today and

6:15

the availability and what we could bring

6:17

off the bench compared to what Blackburn could

6:20

bring on the bench and our old

6:22

friend Emmanuel Dennis to sort of bring that

6:24

up again but I just look at

6:26

Tom on the end and he's looking and

6:28

he's looking at his different players who

6:30

are doing all they can but what can they do

6:32

with the level they're at and I really feel

6:34

sorry for him and I do think we just

6:36

need to take a step back, have a bit

6:38

of context I think. For

6:40

us to be in the play of

6:42

conversation for a long time, a couple of

6:44

weeks ago, I think he's done a

6:46

great job and I would love nothing more

6:49

to see him managing us again, going

6:51

into next season. Hopefully we have

6:53

the key players like Bar. Whether we lose

6:55

or say is we don't know, but he's missed

6:57

Bar, who's been the most devastating player. So

6:59

for me, I think he's done a great job,

7:01

but some fans will look at the form

7:03

and go, he's not been good enough. What

7:05

do you think? I feel a bit sorry

7:07

for him in some ways, because yeah, I

7:09

think if you look at the first half

7:11

of the season, and look at

7:13

those games that we won by one goal, fine

7:16

margins. Bar and

7:18

Chakvatadze, but Bar was a difference in a lot of them

7:20

and basically he's been with that bar pretty much, apart from

7:22

a few games for the whole of the second half of the

7:24

season, which is a massive blow. Chakvatadze's

7:26

form tailed off a little bit. We've had

7:28

more injuries. The lack of

7:30

quality and depth in the striking

7:33

department has been an issue. And

7:35

I think as you say, yeah, you're right. If

7:37

we had the season, which we sort of have

7:39

had in the last few years, where you're kind

7:41

of, you're never stringing more than two results together,

7:43

but you're just keeping your head above water for

7:45

the whole time, then we're probably a

7:48

little bit more indifferent to the whole thing.

7:50

But because we had that first half of the

7:52

season where we were so good, I remember

7:54

seeing you outside the Vic when we beat Portsmouth

7:56

just before Christmas and we got that Rock of

7:58

Atta score that last minute goal. I remember seeing you

8:00

and Sam walking down Vicaridro as I was walking

8:02

home to see my mum and I went, mate,

8:05

something's happening. Something's happening. I

8:07

believe. There's belief. And then basically

8:09

ever since then it's all gone

8:11

to pot. And because we've had that

8:13

contrast, that great first

8:15

half and this pretty poor

8:17

second half. It

8:19

accumulates. The bad feelings and negativity accumulates.

8:21

And like you say, I think context

8:23

is important. And I think Clevverly should

8:25

be beyond reproach. He shouldn't be beyond

8:27

criticism. You know, he's still

8:29

an inexperienced manager. Has he made all the right decisions? You

8:32

know, does the Jebuson thing hang over him a little

8:34

bit? Maybe? Like, there are things you can point at and

8:36

that's fine. I think he'd admit

8:38

that himself. Like, he's not going to

8:40

be perfect, but I think we have to

8:42

understand where we are as a club, where

8:44

we are as a squad and the bigger

8:46

picture. And I think

8:49

it's quite apt that we were

8:51

at Blackburn today. We saw towards the

8:53

end of the game some Blackburn fans

8:55

unveil a banner that said, Pasha out.

8:57

I believe Pasha is one of the

8:59

hierarchy, chief exec, one of the hierarchy

9:01

at Blackburn. They are not happy.

9:03

Their fans are not happy. We were chatting to some fans

9:05

before the game. They're not

9:07

too dissimilar to us in terms of

9:09

they're very unhappy with the Venkis and

9:11

the Venkis which You know, you

9:13

may, if you're listening now and you

9:15

haven't been paying attention to Blackburn, why would

9:17

you? Like, you might be surprised to

9:19

think, just to hear that they're still here,

9:21

but thank you to sort of comedy

9:24

owners in the sort of Barclays area of

9:26

the Premier League, but they're still here.

9:28

They've basically let the club drift, you know,

9:30

into... kind of malaise, long -term malaise. And

9:32

I think they're sort of a few

9:34

steps ahead of us in terms of where

9:36

we could be in a few years. They're constantly,

9:38

they're sort of, every now and again, they have

9:40

this little chance, look, there's still no chance of

9:42

getting to the playoffs now, but there's unrest. People

9:45

aren't happy with the way the club's being run. And

9:47

you just look around the place,

9:50

we're standing outside Ewood Park now, and

9:52

it's faded, it's tired. Even

9:54

the Venkis logo, their own logo

9:56

on the Riverside stand, in

9:59

Ewood Park all the Venkis signs

10:01

are like faded and stained from

10:03

where the rains come down over

10:05

the stand like it speaks to

10:07

neglect and it's interesting to see

10:10

Blackburn and Sheppard Wednesday are in

10:12

a similar situation at the moment.

10:14

I think there's been a lot

10:16

of protests at Hillsborough today from

10:18

Sheppard Wednesday fans. It feels

10:20

like Blackburn, Sheppard Wednesday, maybe Reading and

10:22

League One as well, are what we could

10:24

be in a year's time, perhaps. And

10:27

when we're talking about Tom Cleverly, when we're

10:29

talking about the squad and the players, I

10:31

think you do have to take a step back sometimes

10:33

and think, look, we've had some

10:35

fun times this season, but the reason that me, Mike

10:37

and John sat down outside the railway at the

10:40

start of the season and were

10:42

quite somber and sober about our

10:44

prospects. All those reasons

10:46

are still there. And

10:48

I'm concerned right now, going into

10:50

the summer, one game left this season,

10:52

we're going into the summer and

10:54

thinking, I don't know who our manager's

10:56

going to be next season, I don't know if Clevelly's going to

10:58

still be here. I think we're going to sell some of our

11:00

best players and I don't think we're going to be able to

11:02

replace them with anywhere near the same level of quality. I

11:05

don't see at the moment

11:07

a positive short -term future

11:09

for Watford. And in

11:11

some ways, it's helpful to perhaps

11:13

look at other clubs who are in the

11:15

same situation and know that we're not

11:17

the only ones, but it doesn't really give

11:20

us any consolation. It doesn't feel good.

11:22

And one trend that I think has been

11:24

common since we've been in the Premier

11:26

League, which is probably what, 10 -year anniversary

11:28

that you guys have done a pot

11:30

about, is the second half of

11:32

the season for how many years now

11:34

has always been a lot worse than the first

11:36

half. And I think that comes down to

11:38

the short -termism of the Potsos of

11:40

whether it's a manager or players

11:42

and we've seen this season exactly the

11:44

same thing obviously different contexts in

11:46

all seasons but whenever in the Premier

11:48

League had a really good start

11:50

and then at the end faded faded

11:52

faded and we're always safe but it

11:54

always felt like oh are we

11:57

look I think Like I said there's going

11:59

to be a lot of conversation about Tom Cleveley but as you

12:01

guys spoke about in the summer and as

12:03

just reiterated we need to shine a light

12:05

on the work that the owners of doing

12:07

or the lack of work that they're doing

12:09

in the position that they've got us in

12:11

and I think that all of our troubles

12:13

have come down unfortunately to what they've

12:16

done or what they haven't done so yeah

12:18

I'm hoping that we can kind of have Sheffield

12:20

Wednesday have a bit of a win keep

12:22

Cleves and at least then because you know the

12:24

players are playing for him like you got

12:26

May Pollock at the end of the game today

12:28

he's thinking he's hobbling off he can't move but

12:30

he's like should I play on I honestly

12:32

think the players are playing for this manager which

12:34

we can't say for a lot of the

12:36

managers that we've had in recent years so I'm

12:39

hoping we can just take a breath get

12:41

into the summer have Cleves at the helm because

12:44

I think what he's done with this squad has

12:46

been great so if we can get into

12:48

next season with a fit bar and other players

12:50

who are more available it can be

12:52

a tiny bit more promising but under this

12:54

ownership I think we're always going to

12:56

have the problems that you guys spoke about

12:58

in the summer I agree but let's

13:00

try and end on a positive note okay

13:02

a couple of positive little things to

13:04

bring you before we end today first of

13:06

all Sheffield Wednesday at home next Saturday

13:08

12 30 kickoff last home game of the

13:10

season after the game At the Mad

13:12

Squirrel, it's from the Rookery

13:14

End's 15th birthday party and

13:16

you're all invited. Come

13:19

along, win, lose or

13:21

draw. Come along, celebrate being

13:23

a Watford fan and celebrate

13:25

15 years of the podcast.

13:28

A couple of other things as

13:31

well. As you said, Charlie, we

13:33

did put out a podcast on

13:35

Friday. just before this weekend, celebrating

13:37

the 10 -year anniversary of Watford getting

13:39

promoted to the Premier League in

13:41

14 -15, culminating in that win

13:43

at 2 -0 win at Brighton and

13:45

then going up a few hours

13:47

later when we were watching the

13:49

scores as Middlesbrough failed to be

13:51

Fulham. A couple of

13:53

little addendums to that podcast.

13:56

First of all, a story from Watford

13:58

fan Laura, who there on that

14:00

day and just as I said, and

14:03

we were all talking about on that pod. One

14:05

of the great things about the way we went

14:07

up that day, even though it

14:09

was a shame perhaps that we weren't

14:11

all at Vicarage Road and we weren't

14:13

all together as a collective fan base,

14:15

everyone who was at Brighton, everyone who

14:17

was a Watford fan has a memory

14:19

of where they were on that day

14:21

and they're all quite special and they're

14:23

all quite unique and here is Laura's

14:25

memory of that special day. I

14:28

was actually in the home in that

14:30

day because I've been invited by

14:32

a work contact who's a seagulls fan.

14:34

It was a really nervy game

14:36

but when Vidra scored I was so

14:38

envious of the away and limbs

14:40

because I had to sit on my

14:42

hands and try to look nonchalant

14:44

and not completely smug. I'm not sure

14:46

I succeeded on that front. I

14:48

was offered a lift back to Watford

14:51

but I decided to go shopping

14:53

in Brighton and get the train back

14:55

later. There were loads of

14:57

Watford fans many around and it

14:59

suddenly became clear that the other results

15:01

were going our way and I

15:03

thought oh my god I can't be

15:05

in some nicky -nacky interior shop when

15:07

we get promoted. I also actually

15:09

didn't want to be on my own

15:11

and then I walked past a

15:13

pub that was full of hornets so

15:15

I went in middle -aged woman on

15:17

her own. and I looked

15:20

around and I picked out two other

15:22

women in yellow and I explained

15:24

my situation and they absolutely welcomed me

15:26

into their group with open arms

15:28

and obviously when promotion was secured me

15:30

and my new friends we jumped

15:32

we celebrated we threw our beer in

15:35

the air we then went out

15:37

onto the main street and I remember

15:39

holding up the traffic dancing on

15:41

the street and then we

15:43

headed for the beach where some

15:45

of my new mail acquaintances took

15:47

off their clothes and rushed into

15:49

the sea don't think I was

15:51

anticipating that the start of the

15:53

day and I eventually got the

15:55

train home about half eight and

15:57

we sang and danced and bounced

15:59

with other hornets all the way

16:01

home via Clapham with

16:03

one exception who I see

16:06

occasionally at away games I've

16:08

never seen or contacted the people

16:10

that I spend that afternoon

16:12

with but actually it doesn't

16:14

really matter because we had that

16:16

moment together and it was

16:18

bloody brilliant. I mean, what a

16:20

moment that must have been to be

16:22

down in Brighton shopping. And then you

16:25

think, oh, I've got to get into the pub.

16:27

I've got to find some Watford fans. And that's heartening

16:29

to know that the Watford fans took Laura under

16:31

their wing. And she had a great time. And they

16:33

all had a great time that day. I think

16:35

you were doing the same, weren't you, that day? You

16:37

found some Watford fans after the game and went

16:39

down to the beach and down to the pubs in

16:41

Brighton? Honestly, Dave, one of the best days I've

16:43

had as a football fan. We were in a pub

16:45

called King and Queens of Brighton Seafront. And I

16:48

probably gave Laura a kiss at some point. Honestly,

16:50

one of the best days I've ever

16:52

had, and yeah, listening to your guys'

16:54

pods was amazing. So, yeah,

16:56

reminiscing about those times. Yeah, I'm hoping, are we

16:59

coming round to this cycle? Is it been 10

17:01

years that it's got to be our turn soon

17:03

or does this football not work like that? We'll

17:05

see. I think it could

17:07

take maybe another 10

17:09

years before we get back

17:11

there. And not just

17:13

another memory from that time

17:15

as well. Here's John

17:17

Mooney talking. to

17:20

Radio 5 Live's Jackie Oatley on

17:22

the air in Vicarage Road

17:24

when the... the Elson John stand

17:26

was opened. To go to

17:28

Vicarage Road, Watford fans arriving early

17:30

to see Wigan, to see

17:32

Sir Elton John and Jackie Oatley.

17:35

Well Mark, I'm at a chilly but sunny

17:37

Vicarage Road looking at two newly named stands

17:39

facing each other honouring two club legends who

17:41

combine to bring the glory years to Watford

17:43

Football Club. On the last home match the

17:46

Graham Taylor stand was officially opened and today

17:48

it's the turn of one of the greatest

17:50

rock stars that Pinner has ever produced which

17:52

is a close -run thing bearing in mind the

17:54

Jerry Halliwell. from down the road here in

17:56

Watford. I did see Sir Elton John on

17:58

his way into the stand a little bit earlier on

18:00

and I'm in his newly named stand now

18:03

with presenter of the Rookery End podcast,

18:05

John Mooney. No relation to Tommy. John,

18:07

just tell us, what does Sir Elton

18:09

mean to this club? If it wasn't

18:11

for Sir Elton, we wouldn't be the

18:13

club that we are having a stand

18:15

of this size to name after him. He's

18:18

a man who defines the football club

18:20

but also defines every time I go on

18:23

holiday. say one

18:25

from Watford, they go, oh, like Elton John. So

18:27

he's so important to what this little club

18:29

is today. Are you a fan of his

18:31

music? Everyone's got a good

18:33

catchy pop song, and we don't mind a singer's

18:35

song or two, no? Oh, go on then.

18:37

Well, at the back of this stand, we

18:39

have the yellow writing of some of the

18:42

words from your song, that's Elton's your song,

18:44

not your song, printed on the grey corrugated

18:46

background. But I think they'd be much better

18:48

sung by you, John. I've heard you on

18:50

your podcast. You've got a bit of a

18:52

set of lungs on you. Tell

18:54

us what's on the back here. Come

18:57

on, you've got to sing it, sing it. it

18:59

might be quite simple but

19:01

now that it's done i hope

19:03

you don't mind i hope

19:05

you don't mind what i put

19:18

And we're going

19:20

to end with

19:23

this. a lovely

19:25

little moment of happenstance

19:27

this morning, right? Me and Charlie,

19:29

we meet up at Manchester Victoria

19:31

Station to get the train over

19:33

to Blackburn. We're walking

19:35

across the station, Charlie's

19:38

got his carrier bag with all of his

19:40

cans in, and he's got his scarf

19:42

on, his Watford scarf on, and a

19:44

lady saw Charlie, flagged him down

19:46

and said, you're out of love, are

19:48

you Watford? Yeah, yeah, I used to

19:50

work at Watford, but really? said,

19:53

yeah, yeah, yeah, I used to work behind the

19:55

bar at Watford. Like, wow, like, when?

19:57

It was back, you know, with Graham Taylor,

19:59

when he first left the club, when he first

20:01

left the club. But, oh, wow, in like, yeah, late

20:03

80s, yeah, and then that man came in. Who

20:05

was that man, you know, the one that came in

20:07

after? They bas... Yeah, bas it! Oh, I

20:09

didn't like him. He sawed after the team, and

20:11

then six months later, we were down. And

20:14

we were like, whoa, what happened? Like, how did

20:16

you end up working for Watford

20:18

in... If I told you my life

20:20

story, you'd miss the game, you'd be here all

20:22

day. I'm from Wakefield. And then

20:24

she walked away. And that's all we heard

20:26

from her. But we had this wonderful moment

20:28

for about two minutes with this lady from

20:30

Wakefield who worked for Watford in the late

20:32

80s behind the bar at Vicarage Road. She

20:35

loved Graham Taylor. She didn't like Dave Bassett.

20:38

And that is the sort of thing

20:40

that can happen if you decide to

20:42

come to an away day and follow Watford

20:44

away at Blackburn the last day of the season.

20:47

It was literally the minute I met you

20:49

before I probably spoke to you and some

20:51

woman just flagged me down and said, you

20:53

know that love? Like I said, your impression

20:55

is very nice of a Norman accent, but

20:57

it just goes to show we've been reminiscing

20:59

this time of year when Watford had their

21:01

success stories and we spoke about the FA

21:03

Cup semi -finals when you guys were in New

21:05

York and it just shows Watford fans are

21:07

everywhere and everyone's got their unique stories and

21:09

their unique pockets from around the UK and

21:11

around the world. Yeah, you

21:13

guys need to go on a podcast and

21:15

see what actually happened when she was working with

21:17

Graham Taylor in the 90s. I think we

21:19

need to track her down. On the very

21:21

minute chance that she's listening to this, get

21:23

in touch. But if you're listening to this

21:25

and you know that lady from Wakefield who

21:27

worked at Watford in the late 80s, give

21:29

us a shout. We'll track her down. We'll get

21:31

her back on. But that's enough from us today.

21:34

We'll be back next week. After the Sheffield Wednesday

21:36

game, going to have a good old knees -up, I

21:38

think, after the Sheffield Wednesday game to celebrate the

21:40

15 years from the Rookery, and we're going to

21:42

chat to some of the cast and the characters

21:44

that have been with us for this 15 years.

21:46

And you've still got that 10 -year anniversary pod

21:48

to listen to. If today

21:50

has got you down, if

21:53

me and Charlie not being that happy

21:55

about today has got you down, then trust

21:57

me, listening to that 10 -year anniversary pod

21:59

of the promotion from 2015,

22:02

we'll cheer you up. We'll see you next

22:04

week. Come on, yawns!