0:03

Music Get

0:35

away! Get away!

0:37

Get away! Get

0:39

away! The

1:14

sound there of yet another raucous

1:16

Watford Crown at Recruits Road. No,

1:18

that isn't from Sunday and Watford's

1:20

went against Luton. That was the

1:22

sound of the Sir Elton John

1:24

stand watching Watford win 2 -1. The

1:26

Under 18s win 2 -1 at

1:28

home in the quarter finals of

1:30

the Youth FA Cup. Welcome from

1:33

the Wiccan. My name is John.

1:35

Jason's here. Hello there. And Michael.

1:37

Very good evening to you guys.

1:39

It was a good evening. Jason,

1:41

what a brilliant performance. It was

1:43

it really, really good. I think the first half was

1:45

quite an even game. It sort of ebbed and flowed in

1:47

terms of who was on top. We

1:50

scored when we were, they scored when they

1:52

did. I was worried then that we might

1:54

fade a bit but we finished the first

1:56

half strongly and I thought second half we

1:58

were definitely the better team. Some quality football out

2:00

there I'd what really impressed me most and

2:02

I was saying this to Mike was I

2:05

felt their intelligence on the pitch did the

2:07

patterns of play they all knew where they

2:09

need to be and what they did and

2:11

I think you talked about disciplining in the

2:13

first office my question was like do you

2:16

think modern day youth players are more disciplined

2:18

I think probably more than disciplined in another

2:20

way than before. I don't know about the

2:22

other side, but on that evidence tonight, our

2:24

side certainly won't. It was really enjoyable to

2:27

watch. Mike, second thing we've seen here in

2:29

a couple of weeks. Second win, some

2:31

stars coming through there, at least shining

2:33

tonight. genuinely exhilarating to watch that they

2:35

beat Tottenham in the in the last

2:38

round here which we were here for

2:40

and arguably I think this was potentially

2:42

a better performance because well Tottenham went

2:44

down to nine million but I think

2:47

what was telling this evening was the

2:49

Southampton who they did look dangerous they

2:51

were obviously a decent team. They lost

2:53

their rag, they got petulant towards the

2:56

end because Jason had been, as Jason

2:58

was saying, what they played incredibly intelligently,

3:00

they stuck to what they did,

3:02

they popped the ball around, what

3:04

they are, direct, they're quick, they

3:06

are intense, they're just really, really,

3:08

genuinely exciting to watch and weren't

3:10

a great value for the win

3:12

and just a real thrill to

3:14

see them being able to build

3:16

on that last performance against Tottenham

3:18

and knock out another... Cat One

3:20

I believe Academy in the shape

3:22

of Southampton and to reach the

3:24

semi-finals of the FA Youth Cup

3:26

is an incredible, incredible and achievement.

3:28

and to do it playing football like

3:30

that. It's good and the words of the

3:33

crowd as well. Another over 2000 again here

3:35

in the Elton John Stand up for Grid

3:37

Road this evening making real noise and I

3:40

think that is testament to what they were

3:42

seeing. You couldn't help but usually there's a

3:44

bit of a reverential sort of atmosphere of

3:46

these games but if you couldn't help but

3:49

get involved and there was chance breaking out

3:51

and all it was... That was in response to

3:53

the football they were seeing, really really good, a

3:55

thrilling evening here at Vickers Road. Now this isn't

3:57

a podcast where we're going to break down this.

4:00

game and talk about it. Actually, this

4:02

is a special podcast, taking a lot

4:04

of interviews and lots of stuff. We

4:06

wanted to look, Mike, at the youth,

4:08

the current youth setup, didn't we? We

4:10

did. And for me, there was two

4:12

big points to that. I think overall,

4:14

we bemoan the state of football and

4:16

there's a lot not to like about

4:18

football. And there's a lot of negative

4:20

press or certainly negative connotations about youth

4:22

football and academy football and how it

4:24

treats footballers and how it spits them

4:26

out at the other end without really

4:28

caring for them. And the other thing that

4:30

struck me was that what for tend

4:32

to do things differently? We stood outside

4:34

Vickery Drowed next to the statue of

4:36

Graham Taylor and a lot of people

4:38

sort of invoked the memory of Graham

4:40

Taylor and his name and say, this

4:42

is how GT would have done it.

4:44

And one of the things that GT,

4:46

I think, stood for was doing things

4:48

differently. And one of those things was

4:50

looking after people, the people who were

4:52

involved in the football club. And of

4:54

course, none more important than the players

4:56

and the youngsters coming through. So I

4:58

wanted to sort of look under the

5:00

bonnet of the academy because it felt like

5:02

it was an opportune time to do

5:05

so. We thought we decided to do it

5:07

before this cup run. Yeah. But it's

5:09

timed itself perfectly. But I wanted to have

5:11

a look to see what Watford were

5:13

doing. Is it hard, what for doing it

5:15

differently? Or what for doing it the

5:17

GT way, almost? So yeah, that's why I

5:19

wanted to do it. And yeah, we

5:22

spoke to loads and loads of people. For

5:24

the podcast, we spoke with Richard Johnson,

5:26

who's the academy director, head of technical development,

5:28

Jimmy Gilligan, the under 18 coaches, that's

5:30

Matt Bevin and one of

5:32

the only Lloyd Doily. Under 21

5:34

coaches, Charlie Dickinson and former

5:36

Watford player, Dan Gosling, the academy's

5:38

head of education, Andrew Griffith,

5:40

the head of academy performance, Brett

5:42

Dickinson, Nathan Jop, who looks

5:44

after the player care and safeguarding

5:46

and also Rebecca McDermott, also

5:48

part of the academy's safeguarding team.

5:50

And here's what we found out when we took

5:52

a visit to Watford football clubs. There

6:13

are of course plenty of memorable terrorist chants,

6:15

but few a song with such pride and

6:17

passion as he's one of our own. It's

6:20

a statement, a reminder, a proud proclamation

6:22

that the player in question isn't

6:24

just playing for the club, he was

6:26

nurtured and developed by the club. Like the

6:28

supporters singing his name, he's been

6:30

with the club for the long haul. Youth team

6:32

or Academy football has changed over

6:34

the years, but one thing has

6:36

remained consistent at Watford at least. While

6:39

the primary focus is clearly on helping

6:41

football as develop, and to reach their

6:43

full potential, it's also about ensuring that

6:45

the players that enter the academy leave

6:48

it as good people, as well-rounded,

6:50

well-educated humans with experience that will

6:52

stand them in good stead and

6:54

memories that will last a lifetime,

6:57

experiences at memories that they

6:59

probably wouldn't have got elsewhere. It's

7:01

hard to say when Watford's youth set

7:03

up was established. The first documented evidence

7:05

is a Watford team entering the FA

7:07

Youth Cup in 1955. Since that time

7:10

a steady number of players have graduated from

7:12

the youth ranks to play first team football

7:14

at Vicaried Road and there's a

7:16

prominent display at the entrance to the

7:19

current academy facility that lists them all

7:21

in chronological order. The fact that that list

7:23

is so long is thanks in no small

7:25

part to Ground Taylor who famously brought in

7:27

Tom Wally to oversee the youth setup

7:29

at Vicaried Road. Under GT's watchful eye

7:31

Tom Wally fostered a culture of not just

7:33

discipline and success but also care and nurture

7:36

nurture and nurture. Today, players have a

7:38

very different experience, but that culture

7:40

of care and respect still persists

7:42

at Watford, with a baton now passed

7:44

on to Academy Director Richard Johnson

7:46

and head of technical development Jimmy

7:48

Gilligan, two men who have Watford in

7:50

their heart and Graham Taylor's ethos and vision

7:53

at the forefront of their minds. It's with

7:55

them that we begin our mission to find

7:57

out more about the Watford Academy of Today,

7:59

what it does. and how it delivers. To

8:01

go forward we first start to go

8:03

back starting with Johno and his memories

8:05

of being a youth team player at

8:07

vicaried road. I left home at 15,

8:09

left Australia at 15, started at Tottenham,

8:11

but back then it was the YTS

8:13

youth training scheme and then arrived at

8:15

Watford at 16 after spending about eight

8:17

months at Tottenham. For me my first

8:19

experience was Kenny jacket. He was my

8:21

youth team coach. Kenny became a father

8:24

figure for me like being away from

8:26

home so so so young. Back then

8:28

it was totally different obviously to what

8:30

academy football is now. Kenny was everything

8:32

like the psychologist, the coach, what the

8:34

players experience today is a million miles

8:36

away from. what we went through. We

8:38

all had jobs, I think we used

8:40

to get changed at the stadium and

8:42

then go off to the honeypot lane

8:44

in Stanmore. I think that was the

8:46

first training ground we had. They had

8:48

a yellow mini bus that we all

8:50

used to have to sit in. Kenny

8:52

drove the yellow mini bus through old

8:54

Reading and then dropped down into Stanmore.

8:56

Ken Brooks was the old kit manager.

8:58

He used to make it difficult for

9:00

us and made sure we never used

9:03

to get away from the stadium until

9:05

about five, five, five-th-thirty every day. A

9:07

different time for John O in the

9:09

early 90s. What about Jimmy when he

9:11

was in the Watford youth team in

9:13

the late 1970s and early 80s under

9:15

the legendary Tom Wally? It was an

9:17

apprenticeship and it was way harder than

9:19

Johnos. There really were no rules and

9:21

regulations if I'm being honest with you.

9:23

It was an apprenticeship. You worked really

9:25

hard. Tom was a genius in the

9:27

amount of players he got through at

9:29

this football club and subsequently at Arsenal.

9:31

It was just a regime that was

9:33

so tough, so strong that if you

9:35

wasn't a strong-minded individual, even as a

9:37

young person, you'd crumble. There's no doubt

9:40

about that. We'd done a day's work

9:42

before we'd train him. You'd be at

9:44

8 o'clock, you know, I think I

9:46

had Steve Simsey and Bolton, probably Ross

9:48

Jenkins boots in the bootroom to do.

9:50

There might be stuff around the terracing

9:52

that needs. cleaning from the game the

9:54

night before if there was game and

9:56

we regularly swept the terrors in after

9:58

games with the club. We regularly put

10:00

straw on the pitch in the winter

10:02

to preserve the pitch. Then we didn't

10:04

have the yellow mini bus but we

10:06

had an old mini bus at Tom

10:08

Wood Drive and actually at times Tom

10:10

on the way to training because then

10:12

we didn't have a regular training ground.

10:14

So we would go to Cassebury Park

10:16

to a Royal Air Force place because

10:19

Roy Claire was our kit man and

10:21

Roy was involved in the RF in

10:23

his previous regime. So in a way,

10:25

sometimes we were looking around for a

10:27

training ground. The first team would train

10:29

at Shandish Manor. A lot of the time we'd

10:31

go up there as well. With Tom, you know, it

10:33

was a hard taskmaster and training was always competitive every

10:35

day. There was no data. There was no data. There

10:38

was no one, you know, you know, with a GPS.

10:40

You know, you know, you know, you know, you know,

10:42

you know, you know, you know, you know, you know,

10:44

you know, you know, you know, you know, you know,

10:47

you know, you know, you know, you know, you know,

10:49

you know, you know, you know, you know, Tom would

10:51

regularly drop us at Hunt and Bridge Roundabout. and literally

10:53

we'd be legging it in a race back to the

10:55

ground. And I think if you speak to a lot

10:58

of people in my time, if you speak to Kenny

11:00

Chackett, Charlie Palmer, people like that. The

11:02

dying memory for all of us

11:04

is hemsed road, as we all

11:06

know, if you live in the

11:08

Watford area, is a very congested

11:10

road. It's a very congested road.

11:12

Tom made that more congested by

11:14

dropping us off and actually laughed

11:17

and drove the... van on, Charlie

11:19

ended up two hours later getting

11:21

to the ground. If he wasn't

11:23

strong-minded as an individual, then it

11:25

wasn't the place for you to

11:27

be. So what about this legend

11:29

that is Tom Wally, one of GT's

11:31

right-hand men, who basically turned Watford youth team

11:33

into one of the best? in the country.

11:35

I'll tell you what Tom was. Tom was

11:37

a genius with developing the individual. He didn't

11:39

have the amount of players that we have

11:41

now in modern academies. Of course he didn't.

11:44

He just was one team because when I

11:46

started we didn't even have a youth team

11:48

program. We played games against the army, the

11:50

Navy, the RAF and anybody else at Tom

11:52

could get games against the other clubs that

11:54

had youth teams. But when I look back

11:56

at the training there was loads of individual

11:58

work, loads of one... 1 stuff 2 v

12:01

2 which probably going out of the

12:03

game more it's more like people talk

12:05

about strategies and tactics now I'm a

12:07

massive one and I know John is

12:09

about developing the individual and I think

12:11

that's why Tom really was so successful

12:14

he ingrained his disciplining you and he

12:16

really really made me a better player

12:18

as I and a stronger individual coming

12:20

through his ranks don't get me wrong

12:22

there were times I was petrified of

12:24

him and that today, like you were

12:27

saying, doesn't happen, but I wouldn't have

12:29

changed that for the world. My mum

12:31

and dad didn't have, like, we didn't have

12:33

a car. On a Friday night, nine times

12:35

out of ten, I would stay at Tom

12:37

and Pauline's house in Brickettwood. The worst thing

12:40

was, he'd come to the school gates with

12:42

the old van. As soon as he sees,

12:44

he's tutting away. I've got a girlfriend there,

12:46

like you're not allowed to have a girlfriend

12:48

so you're like trying to sneak a kiss

12:51

out before you go and it's getting the

12:53

van gilling and get in the van and

12:55

like off we go, like I'm just

12:57

waving goodbye to my mates and it

12:59

was mental on a Friday night. You

13:01

go into Tom's house. then you'd have

13:04

to go and like do the washing

13:06

up, do the cooking, make some tea,

13:08

all that kind of stuff. It just,

13:10

it was madness. Johno never played under

13:12

Tom Wally at youth level, but his

13:15

legend was still very strong when Johno

13:17

joined the club and played with many

13:19

of the graduates of Tom Wally's youth

13:21

team. I remember stories, Jason Solomon, Barry

13:23

Ashby, they're all a little bit older

13:25

than me, but they used to say

13:28

on a Monday morning, like they'd all

13:30

been out into London and... and Tom

13:32

would pull him in the Monday morning

13:34

and sit them all down on the

13:36

on the bench before training and say

13:38

you tell me where you were before

13:40

I tell you and they'd all had

13:42

a like a word with each other

13:44

right nobody's saying anything we haven't been

13:47

out we haven't been there and Jay's

13:49

the solo used to say every Monday

13:51

morning Rod Thomas oh sorry we've been

13:53

we've been uptown and like he used

13:55

to grass everybody Thomas had always

13:57

give in and like they're gone

13:59

The legend of course continued in

14:02

stories, but the impact of Tom's

14:04

work in the youth team was

14:06

felt in the first team for

14:09

a lot of the 90s. I

14:11

think a lot of that was

14:14

down to Tom Wally and Watford

14:16

as a club because... I remember

14:18

when I made my debut, Steve

14:21

Pereman, gave me my debut away

14:23

at Cambridge, I was 17, but

14:25

in that team, there was Jason

14:28

Driesdale, Jason Solomon, Barry Ashby, Gibbo,

14:30

David James was in goal, literally there

14:32

was... ports, eight or nine players that

14:35

had come through the youth team. And

14:37

that's what it was all about. And

14:39

all those players I'd mentioned, they were

14:41

at Lilyshaw, had the chance to go

14:44

to Man Cities and other clubs, but

14:46

they all chose to come to Watford.

14:48

For me, looking at that was amazing.

14:51

And I know it would have probably

14:53

never get back to have an eight

14:55

or nine academy players ever in a

14:57

first team somewhere. But even early in

15:00

the 1980s when Watford were in the

15:02

UEFA Cup, Jimmy by the way is

15:04

the answer to the quiz question which

15:07

Watford players scored the first goal in

15:09

the UEFA Cup. For many of those

15:11

games Watford were relying on the youth

15:14

players coming through due to injuries for

15:16

the first team players. But did Jimmy

15:18

really feel like they were a young

15:21

inexperienced bunch? I actually had no bearing.

15:23

So when I look at the UEFA

15:25

Cup that we played in on that

15:28

second leg where Ian Richardson scores two

15:30

goals, look at the team. The team is

15:32

the youth team. It's literally the youth team.

15:34

But there was no, oh, there were a

15:36

bunch of young lads, you know, BBC

15:38

covered it or whatever. They're not

15:41

talking about they would do now, you know,

15:43

when I saw a Wannieri in there or

15:45

someone. That was what Watford were and probably

15:47

we were the envy of an awful lot

15:49

of football clubs. You know, so from my

15:51

point of view, I don't think age mattered.

15:54

Did I think I'd made it? No, definitely

15:56

not, because there were two people at this

15:58

football club that made you realise. that would

16:00

never, should be in your train of

16:02

thought, that one was a gaffer, Graham,

16:04

and the other one was Tom. And

16:06

then you have a third arm to

16:08

that, that's Bertie Me, who, you know,

16:10

came to this club from Arsenal. Dare

16:13

I say it was a regimented football

16:15

club already. I don't know if there

16:17

could have been any more regiment to

16:19

it, but it was, you keep your

16:21

feet firmly on the ground, you just

16:23

go from week to week, day to

16:25

day, year. If you stay in the game,

16:27

brilliant Graham always used to say, unless you've

16:29

had 50 games, you're not a professional football.

16:32

I think it probably went up to 100

16:34

games, blah blah blah. I left here in

16:36

1985-86 anyway and went on and had a

16:38

journeyman career, as I'd call it, until I

16:40

retired. But at no point in my life,

16:42

funny enough, through my football, did I ever

16:45

think I've cracked it. I played in an

16:47

era where there wasn't fortunes. You know, the

16:49

manager was the king. without a doubt and

16:51

certainly the manager here was to a point

16:53

the run the whole club from top to

16:56

bottom the office is the lot that doesn't

16:58

happen now but You just, I think you

17:00

were, we all turned out really very

17:02

very grounded. When I meet up with

17:05

people from the past that played here,

17:07

we probably had two in Luther and

17:09

Barnsey, who are two stars of this

17:11

football club, but I think the grounding

17:13

we all got, one we're really lucky

17:15

in two, I think that's testament to

17:18

us as people as well, human beings.

17:20

Not only Jimmy and Johno are former

17:22

Watford youth team graduates, in

17:24

the under 18, it's run by Matt

17:26

Bevins. and Lloyd Doily. How did Lloyd

17:28

become a Watford youth team product? When

17:30

I was about 10, 11 years old,

17:32

back then they used to be sent

17:35

over Excellence. There was one in Brentcross,

17:37

Watford, Northampton, Milton, King's. I was part

17:39

of the Brent Cross Centre. I stayed

17:41

there for a few years and then

17:43

by the age of under 13, we

17:45

all became one. And then ever since

17:47

then I was a... playing for the

17:49

academy really. I don't need to tell

17:52

you about the 400 appearances Lloyd Doiley

17:54

went on to make for what for the success

17:56

he had with two promotions appearing in the Premier

17:58

League but Matt Bevin's story is slightly different.

18:00

Matt was a scholar in 2010 to 2012.

18:02

I'd be honest it was smooth sailing until

18:04

around 17 and then I injured my ECO.

18:07

came back for a year but never quite

18:09

broke for it. It's a club that's always

18:11

been close to home, especially being a local

18:13

boy and spending so much time here. When

18:15

I left I was hoping to come back

18:18

one day as a player, obviously didn't work

18:20

out, but to come back as a coach

18:22

is the second best thing. Matt was part

18:24

of the last spell of the academy where

18:26

many graduates were making their way into the

18:29

first team. His contemporaries included Lee Hodgson, Adam

18:31

Thompson and Thompson, Stuart Murray. Marvin Sordel

18:33

and Tommy Hoban, people who made it

18:35

into the first team under Malcolm Mackay

18:37

and Sean Deish. How does his experience

18:39

of academy into professional football help him

18:41

in his current job? It helps for

18:43

sure to lean on our experiences whether

18:46

it's being released or being injured or

18:48

not getting a new deal. It helps

18:50

the boys load and they ask a

18:52

lot of questions and whether it's good

18:54

or bad to be given positives as

18:56

well of good moments we've had it

18:58

certainly helps the boys prepare. Fans giving

19:00

quite an insight into Matt Bevin, Lloyd

19:02

Doiley and the Under Eightens with their

19:04

behind-the-scenes video on the club's YouTube channel

19:06

which saw the changing room and the

19:08

sidelines when Watford's Academy Academy, took on

19:10

topnam. category 1 and 1 in the

19:13

Youth FA Cup, 4-2 the other week.

19:15

I am so jealous of you tonight

19:17

to be able to go and play

19:19

on here and show everyone your ability.

19:21

Go and be your best version of

19:23

yourself, that's it. Like me and I've always

19:25

said, you look in the mirror tonight, you've

19:27

given everything, that's enough for us, that's enough.

19:29

Commit to everything we do. The last thing

19:32

I want you to do before you go

19:34

out, have a look at your wires on

19:36

the wall. I asked you for them seven

19:38

months ago. I'm waiting for the

19:40

right time to use them. Go on

19:43

and make your family proud

19:45

tonight. What a beautiful

19:47

occasion it is. Do it

19:50

wise? Ollie, if you can't affect

19:52

it, that's okay. You can keep

19:54

it there. Don't sell yourself too

19:56

early there, yeah? Yes, cash, creep,

19:59

cash, creep. Yes JD, good boy!

20:01

We've seen a few academy players

20:03

over the last few years make

20:05

it into the first team and

20:07

get some appearances. Most recently, Abby

20:10

and Nabazzada has played twice, but

20:12

we've also seen players like Jack

20:14

Greaves, Michael Adapoko, Toby Adeymo, who

20:16

scored his first senior goal at Vickers

20:18

Road when Watford won two nil against

20:20

blackboards. Quite a moment to see such

20:22

a young man to take that step

20:24

up. we'll hopefully see more of all

20:26

of them in the coming months and

20:29

years. So it feels like the academy

20:31

has gone through quite a lot of

20:33

change over the last few years and

20:35

it's something that we want to look

20:37

into. So when speaking to John O

20:39

and Jimmy, want to find out about

20:41

when they came back to the club

20:43

just over three years ago, what they

20:45

found and what they've had to

20:47

do since. I actually worked on

20:50

the commercial department with Paul O'Brien,

20:52

a commercial director, worked in his

20:54

things like that. And then it

20:56

was just before COVID, I think,

20:58

that sort of club had a

21:00

financial review of the whole club

21:02

really, not just the academy and

21:04

out of that sort of review

21:06

or report, if you like, it

21:08

was noticeable that the academy hadn't

21:11

really progressed or was in a

21:13

place where it was producing players

21:15

or really getting a return on

21:17

investment for the owner. And to be

21:19

fair to Gino, he had been putting

21:21

a lot of his own money into

21:24

the academy. as well as the funding

21:26

that you get from the Premier League

21:28

and they just hadn't had any return

21:31

on investment really from that investment that

21:33

he'd been putting in. There was a

21:35

couple of meetings that were going to

21:37

have a structural change in terms of

21:40

the senior management within the academy and

21:42

I was approached to see if I

21:44

wanted to... sort of head up the

21:47

academy if you like. More on

21:49

the business side rather than the

21:51

technical side if you like. And

21:53

my grounding in the commercial department

21:55

really give me a handle on

21:57

sort of stuff in budgets and

21:59

it was... an honour to be asked

22:01

because of my history with the football

22:03

club for one. Quite daunting, didn't really

22:05

know what I was walking into to

22:07

be honest with you. Jimmy joined me

22:10

a few months, a few months later.

22:12

It was a whirlwind, let's say, to

22:14

be honest with you. So what brought

22:16

Jimmy back to Watford after all these

22:18

years? John, we'd had a couple

22:21

of conversations just... Johno got

22:23

an inkling that he might be doing

22:25

something at Watford, but it wasn't about

22:27

the initial stuff, it wasn't about bringing

22:29

me in, it was about how would

22:31

you set this up, how would you

22:34

do that? I'd had some experience of

22:36

running outside of professional football academies, i.e.

22:38

the Nike Academy and things like that.

22:40

And then the conversation has become a

22:43

bit more serious, as the academy director,

22:45

would you be interested? I said, yeah,

22:47

of course I would, like Johno saying,

22:49

it's a bit like Johno. If I'd

22:51

have known the enormity of the task

22:54

that we had and where the academy

22:56

was, I actually wouldn't have left a

22:58

really lovely comfortable job at the FA

23:00

to come to a really difficult situation

23:03

to walk through the dooring. So a daunting,

23:05

big task ahead of them. What

23:07

do they have to focus on

23:10

first? What were the things they

23:12

had to do to get this

23:14

academy back to where it used

23:17

to be? Within the academy set

23:19

up and sort of safe to

23:21

operate, there's safeguarding player care, there's

23:23

medical provision, there's head of education.

23:26

all sorts of different areas and

23:28

within the last PJAC report which

23:30

is professional game academy audit company

23:33

so it's an independent audit company

23:35

that comes in to make sure

23:37

you're adhering to all the rules.

23:40

So for the previous three or

23:42

four years the academy or the

23:44

club if you like was sort

23:47

of failing in certain areas or

23:49

repeating not meeting the rules if

23:51

you like so when we first

23:54

walked through the door we had

23:56

a full four-day pea jack audit

23:58

we had bonadoes Me and Jimmy

24:00

sat in this room here with

24:03

three women from bananasos grilling us

24:05

about safeguarding and we just sat

24:07

here, don't know, sorry, don't know.

24:09

Within two months we had to

24:11

go through all the sort of

24:13

action plan checklist of all the

24:16

rules that weren't being met, there

24:18

was historical rules that weren't being

24:20

met. that had been sort of

24:22

reoccurring if you like. The first

24:24

six, eight, 12 months was just

24:27

trying to understand the E.O.P. rules

24:29

ourselves, finding out what needed fixing,

24:31

what needed to be put in

24:33

place so that we were in

24:35

a place where P. Jack were

24:37

just going to let us be

24:39

if you like. But the first year

24:42

I... pretty much spent arguing with the

24:44

Premier League over historical stuff that had

24:46

gone on that myself and Jimmy had

24:49

nothing to do with. It was quite

24:51

stressful to be honest with you, understanding

24:53

everything and trying to get people in

24:55

the building because I was here on

24:58

my own whilst Jimmy was working his

25:00

notice at the FAA. And it was

25:02

quite evident that I'd never managed 30

25:05

full-time staff before. I'd never really been

25:07

in an academy setup. and seeing your

25:09

management role. So it was a

25:11

real eye-opener for me going around

25:13

different departments and it was quite

25:15

clear that the academy was running

25:17

in silos. Medical was over here

25:19

not talking to sports science, sports

25:21

science. didn't really get listened to

25:23

by the coaches. The coaches were

25:25

trying to run things themselves and

25:27

the whole thing was sort of

25:29

just a bit of a mess

25:31

to be honest with you. Quickly

25:33

became evident from my point of

25:35

view I'm like ringing Jimmy saying

25:37

hurry up and get here just finished

25:40

working your notes because it was quite

25:42

daunting on my own at first I'll

25:44

be brutally honest with you. Over time

25:46

it's just been a question of trying

25:49

to fix those areas and get good

25:51

people in the building. I'll be honest

25:53

with you, the change of staff and

25:56

everything since we've been in. I think

25:58

we only have one coat. who's the

26:00

lead phase coach and the foundation phase

26:02

and Adam Baletta, the rest of the

26:04

staff from when I walked in have

26:06

all sort of moved on and we've

26:09

we've had a big shift in getting

26:11

good people in the building that care

26:13

about the kids for one. But from

26:15

my point of view it was just

26:17

giving the staff a voice making them

26:19

feel valued, making the players feel valued

26:21

because lots of the stuff that we

26:23

had to change and the rules that

26:26

weren't being met was around. The players,

26:28

they weren't sort of being looked after

26:30

the way they should have or we didn't

26:32

have the right set up, we didn't have

26:34

the correct staff in place. So the first

26:36

12 months was around building that culture and

26:39

getting good people in the building basically.

26:41

You alluded to it earlier on about

26:43

not seeing players come through. One of

26:45

the biggest things was, and I'm on

26:47

record as saying it, is I would

26:49

love to see the fans shouting in

26:51

his one of our channel. You do

26:53

that regularly to Ryan Andrews, which is

26:55

fantastic, but... Richard and I want more

26:57

and more. So to answer your question,

26:59

it was to make sure that we

27:01

have a fit for purpose academy performance

27:03

plan, a fit for purpose methodology about

27:05

the way we work and how we

27:07

work, making sure all coaches are relevant

27:09

and up-to-date with qualifications and e-faith awards,

27:11

which is basic first aid and stuff

27:14

like that, and also allowing everybody, like

27:16

Richard said, to have a voice. but

27:18

bringing those voices together in rooms and

27:20

or being out to make sure that

27:22

we lead the ship properly because it

27:24

needed leading, it needed steering. For me

27:26

the biggest thing was to try and

27:28

get the environment right and in getting

27:30

the environment right everything else will thrive.

27:32

That was probably a quick win for

27:34

us to appoint. because we needed just

27:36

to give people autonomy to do their

27:38

roles. I'm always a big believer if

27:40

you point someone, you're pointing them for

27:42

their expertise, then don't try and dumb

27:45

down their expertise because that's why you've

27:47

got them. If not, don't bother appointing

27:49

them and do it yourself. Over time,

27:51

it became evident that we probably needed

27:53

a changing personnel that had been here.

27:55

They'd been here a long time. It was

27:57

probably time for them to move on to refresh

27:59

their selves. we brought new coaches through the door.

28:01

I believe when you work at a football

28:03

club you have to understand its identity and

28:05

where it comes from. And I've said many

28:08

a time that this Watford is a town.

28:10

It might be a mid-sized town in Hertfordshire,

28:12

but the core of the people and the

28:14

community for the football club and the football

28:16

club is the community for the people. If

28:18

we don't get that right, if we don't

28:20

understand that, then that's really poor. And

28:22

I think Richard and I understand that in

28:24

abundanceand I understand that in abundancean. it's still

28:26

what for football club is sat in the

28:29

middle of what for and that's it. So

28:31

it was about getting people to understand what

28:33

the values of the club is, you know,

28:35

what the ethos of the club is, where

28:37

do we want to take the club and

28:39

how do we want to take it? That

28:41

bond and understanding of the club, I think

28:43

that is what we've tried to instill in

28:45

the play is within the academy that the

28:47

club does have values, the club. is part

28:49

of the community and we've tried to really

28:51

instill that in the scholars now working

28:53

closely with the trust. They go into

28:56

schools, they go to hospices, they go

28:58

do the hospital visits, which is really

29:00

important what we used to do with

29:02

Graham. He used to make us do

29:04

that all the time. We've tried to

29:06

bring that back and make the players

29:08

understand. what the football club means to

29:10

the community. But Jimmy told us about

29:12

one particular incident at the ground that

29:14

stuck with him and maybe been a

29:16

little bit of a motivator for him.

29:19

It's good because I've never been on

29:21

record as saying this but we walked around the stadium with our

29:23

little kids. A fan came down the stairs to me and he

29:25

went... you'll never get players in the first team, you'll never do

29:27

this, you've not produced a player for years and years. And he

29:29

came at me a little bit and I thought, I actually said

29:31

to him, just wait and see. I don't know it was, but

29:33

if he's bold enough to come and see me off this podcast,

29:35

I'd love to see him because we have done that. We have

29:37

done what we said and we'll continue to do it. So Johno

29:39

and Jimmy talk about all the chains that they've done, the people,

29:41

the people they've done, the people, the people they've, the people, the

29:43

people they've, the people, the people, the people they've, the people, the

29:45

people they've, the people they've, the people, the people, the people, the

29:47

people, the people, the people, the people, the people, the people, the

29:49

people, the people, the people, the people, the people, the

29:51

people, the people, the people, the people,

29:53

the people, the people, the people First,

29:56

we spoke to Brent Dickinson. I'm the

29:58

head of Academy Performance. What does that

30:00

mean? basically looks, I look over all

30:02

the performance side of the full academy,

30:04

so from 21 to down, ensuring that

30:06

we've got the correct medical staff, physical

30:09

staff, sports science staff in place and

30:11

we're putting in place the best possible

30:13

program for the medical program for the

30:15

lads to develop. Yes, we need to

30:18

win. Winning is a big part of

30:20

it and it creates a massive culture

30:22

if you get that winning mentality. But

30:24

we also have to think about creating

30:27

the athletes as well because ultimately they

30:29

have to be able to cope with

30:31

the first team demands. it's all right,

30:33

getting them there, but can they physically

30:35

keep up with what a first team

30:37

footballer has to do? So physically and

30:39

mentally it's up to us to challenge

30:42

them and ensure that they can actually

30:44

cope. So if they do develop and

30:46

get into that first team environment, can

30:48

they stay there? So for us, we

30:50

will have to push them and push

30:52

them a lot and at times they'll

30:54

go into games feeling very very very

30:56

very very very leggy, but that's the

30:58

point. They'll physically get more robust. and

31:00

then eventually once you get that better athlete

31:03

they will they will start to win because

31:05

the quality will shine through but then they'll

31:07

be fitted they'll be stronger and then obviously

31:09

it'll start to develop and you'll end up

31:11

with that that whole approach. But some of

31:13

the perceptions of fans and people outside of

31:16

Academy is that you know maybe the the

31:18

times of Tom Wally and the harshness that

31:20

he gave those players isn't quite there anymore.

31:22

Are we creating the footballers that we need?

31:24

Yeah there's a lot going around at the

31:27

moment in people who are going to too

31:29

easy on players or they're going too hard

31:31

on players or you know we need to push

31:33

and whatnot but yeah I suppose I'm quite old

31:35

school in that sense to a point of we

31:37

will work you hard because being a first team

31:40

player is hard work. It's come a little bit

31:42

of a different way and from the old parts

31:44

of we're going to run alongside a coach and

31:46

that kind of thing. However, they will work out

31:48

and they will run. You know, we're still taking

31:51

them and running them up hills, we'll run around

31:53

parks, we'll do different things with them, make it

31:55

as difficult as uncomfortable as possible for them because

31:57

we have to put them in probably make them

31:59

feel. at being uncomfortable, if that makes sense. So

32:01

yeah, there's a little bit of science behind

32:04

it, but then I've got no dramas with

32:06

taking the science away and pushing them and

32:08

letting Jimmy or Johno and get old of

32:10

them and actually, look, go have some fun.

32:12

And they will love doing that kind of

32:14

thing. So yeah, we'll make it as hard

32:16

as we physically can. The biggest thing for

32:18

me is trying to actually implement the physical

32:20

culture and trying to change it a little

32:22

bit. I've been here a short time but

32:24

we're trying to really really change that concept

32:26

of what a physical program looks like to

32:28

ensure we've got almost like an escalator going

32:30

through from the 12th to 13 to 14

32:33

so they'll continually be a progression of athletes

32:35

that come through. It's difficult to get it

32:37

up and running and it doesn't happen overnight

32:39

so ensuring that all the cogs are running

32:42

the same may take it a couple of

32:44

years but it will. being part of that

32:46

process before it's a difficult process once you've

32:48

got the cogs in motion it you know

32:51

it starts to show itself then you actually

32:53

know when you start to see the the

32:55

lads progress through that's the biggest part that

32:57

we'll see so for me the biggest thing

33:00

like I said is just actually getting that

33:02

program in place and getting it ready as

33:04

quickly as possible. Football's changed a lot since

33:06

Jimmy and John O's day, but there's a

33:08

lot of pressure on boys to make it

33:10

because of, well, the financial rewards that comes

33:12

with being a footballer. Does he see this

33:14

being a problem for the boys at Watford's

33:17

Academy? There's always going to be that thought

33:19

of, or if I get these contracts, I can go

33:21

do X, Y and Z, but the whole

33:23

point of the MDT that we've got here

33:25

is to actually keep the kids grounded, to

33:27

actually to explain to them. You know what,

33:29

that's just the cherries on top. That's the

33:31

cherries on top. The desire and the want

33:33

is to play football to be the best

33:35

and that's the main thing if everyone Understand

33:37

that and is singing on the same him

33:39

sheet which they are it's it becomes quite

33:41

simple to keep the kids grounded The kids

33:43

they're obviously going to see that and try

33:45

and get a little bit carried away However,

33:47

it's the people that we've got driving the

33:49

actual machine itself that will will keep and

33:51

grounded And we've got the certain the level

33:54

of staff and the stuff that are plenty

33:56

of drivers that are willing to do so

33:58

it makes it a lot easier The kids see

34:00

there's no gray area, the see look, the light at the end of

34:02

the tunnel, they understand it once they make it over to there, it's

34:04

up to them to stay there. By the time they come out of

34:06

it from the 21st to go to the first team, they should have

34:09

that drive, that determination to be there, I want to be there. And

34:11

the other little bits that come with it, you know, they are what

34:13

they are. But the main thing that they want to do is win

34:15

and win at football and win at football and be

34:17

good at again and be good at again and

34:19

stay there and stay there and stay there and

34:22

stay there and stay there and stay there and

34:24

stay there and stay there and stay there and

34:26

stay there and stay there and stay there and

34:28

stay there and stay there and stay there and

34:30

stay there and stay there. and the academy is

34:32

mainly children from the ages of eight all the

34:34

way through to the under 21s. It's definitely a

34:37

different approach with so many more things going on

34:39

to help the boys not to become footballers as

34:41

Brent has just been saying but also them to

34:43

become better human beings. We also spoke to Andy

34:45

Griffiths who's head of education. at Watford's

34:47

Academy. My job is to manage

34:50

the education and the personal development

34:52

of the boys off the pitch.

34:54

So that includes things like managing

34:57

their BTET program that's linked into

34:59

West hearts college in Watford. It

35:01

also includes things like the Premier

35:03

League's set apprenticeship program that the

35:06

scholars do over the two-year period

35:08

that they're signed with us as

35:10

scholars. They're both level three qualifications

35:12

and then also some of our

35:15

boys do A levels. If they're

35:17

aspiring to go on to maybe

35:19

university, higher education and things like

35:21

that, as part of that apprenticeship

35:23

program, as well as doing the

35:26

BTEC and A levels, they'll also

35:28

do you A for C program.

35:30

Potentially, sometimes they will do FA

35:32

Talent ID level one and also

35:34

their PT and gym instructor course

35:36

if that's the route they want

35:39

to go down. With the football

35:41

industry today, there's... Obviously a lot

35:43

to consider and to be aware

35:45

of as a football player. So

35:47

the lads need to be well versed

35:50

as people as well as football players.

35:52

We're developing them off the pitch with

35:54

certain skill sets. It might be financial

35:56

management life skills workshops. It might be

35:59

just around communicating simple. communication, it might

36:01

be delivering a workshop on the values

36:03

of Watford as a town so the

36:05

lads really understand what the club represents.

36:07

That's probably similar to some of the

36:09

education that John and Jimmy had under

36:11

on the grain Taylor and people like

36:13

that that have come through the club

36:15

but our boys we feel like it's

36:17

important to give them that traditional values

36:19

education but also give them some life

36:21

skills moving forward I how to deal

36:24

with agents, finances, social media these days

36:26

as well and the pressures that come

36:28

with being a football. and going into

36:30

the industry. As you can tell by

36:32

his accent, Andrew wasn't a what-for-fan as

36:34

a kid, but does he still feel

36:36

those values from the Graham Taylor era?

36:38

Some of the values that John and

36:40

Jimmy have brought in come from that

36:42

time when Graham was at the club

36:44

as well, things like hardware, come being

36:47

humble, being honest, respectful, is it's important

36:49

that... myself as an educationalist, we get

36:51

that into the program and make sure

36:53

all ads represent some of those values,

36:55

if not all of those values. So

36:57

I think we've got quite a good

36:59

grasp on that and all ads are

37:01

coming out of our program where the

37:04

good people as well as good footballers.

37:06

And how does Andrew find the boys

37:08

he has to work with when they

37:10

come to the academy and also when

37:12

they leave? I think it's a very

37:14

unique experience to have been in the

37:16

academy football environment, especially when... our part-time

37:18

program goes into our full-time program we

37:21

give our lives so many opportunities to

37:23

look at. football as a worldwide industry,

37:25

not just here in England. Obviously, the

37:27

lads want to make it to what

37:29

the first team, but if not, there's

37:31

so many opportunities wider than that. So

37:33

it's important to recognise that a super

37:35

success for us is yes, getting someone

37:37

like Ryan Andrews into the first team,

37:39

but also it's a successive, a lad

37:41

goes off and does a university degree

37:43

or qualifies as an electrician and goes

37:45

and has a career, but is a

37:47

good person, but is a good person,

37:49

but also feels an attachment, back to

37:52

the and can come back to the

37:54

club whenever they want for that support

37:56

as well. As with any organisation that

37:58

has to deal with children, safeguarding... is

38:00

such an important part of

38:02

Watford's Academy. Nathan Jop, I'm

38:04

the Academy Player Care and

38:06

Safeguarding Officer. My role is

38:08

to safeguard and welfare, life

38:10

skills, personal development and then

38:12

aftercare and alumni support. I'm Rebecca

38:14

McDermott and I am currently the

38:16

maternity cover for the Academy. So

38:19

what a safeguarding look like on a

38:21

day-to-day basis at the Academy. It's case

38:23

management, so we'll sit down as kind

38:25

of staff. me and I especially and

38:27

whoever needs to be involved with what's

38:30

coming in and obviously that changes on.

38:32

low level, high level priorities will tend

38:34

to get about 15 things at once

38:36

and then the next week it's really

38:38

quiet and all going very well. So

38:40

we do that, we do training with

38:43

staff and making sure that we have

38:45

a really open communication with staff because

38:47

that's I think you get the most

38:49

out of it. They're there all the

38:51

time around them from under 9 all

38:53

the way through to the 21s. We

38:55

have more formal things in place but

38:57

actually day to day. we're having conversations

38:59

all the time about players that might

39:01

be on the radar for things. Maybe

39:04

something's thinking something's not right at home

39:06

if they're turning up late all the

39:08

time or the attitudes suddenly switch to

39:10

something that they're not used to or

39:12

they're not used to or they're not

39:14

used to or maybe sometimes it's if

39:16

you get 10 year old saying a

39:18

phrase and you're thinking that's not come

39:20

from here and where's that come from?

39:22

So it's kind of reading between the

39:24

lines of it and the staff are really

39:26

really good involved. We do kind

39:29

of the formal trainings for that

39:31

but actually I think a lot

39:33

of that is instinct and kind

39:35

of having the conversations and sometimes

39:37

you'll get staff come in and

39:39

go this could be absolutely nothing

39:41

by the way and it's more

39:43

if we have it on the

39:45

radar and we've kind of got

39:47

recording of it sometimes staffed just

39:49

on that reassurance that if something

39:51

did. We do a lot of

39:53

talking to people, I think. From

39:55

a safeguarding point of view, it's

39:57

similar to Beck, so I'm usually

39:59

around. sort of the boys in the

40:01

morning gym session training sessions just trying to

40:03

talk to them see if there's anything that

40:06

they want to discuss with me it doesn't

40:08

always have to be anything negative it could

40:10

be anything positive as well but just trying

40:13

to get to know them more and build

40:15

more relationships we have workshops that we do

40:17

day-to-day so that can cover a range of

40:19

topics over that BEDI mental health financial literacy

40:22

careers so it can be a massive range

40:24

of different things that support their professional development

40:26

play a voice so we have an initiative

40:28

where the boys can come and mention

40:30

things that and that's all the way

40:33

through from 9 to 16s. They can

40:35

mention any things that they want to

40:37

improve in the academy, things that they

40:39

like in the academy, just so we

40:41

can create an environment that fits with

40:43

them as well as us. Also in

40:45

terms of aftercare I have regular check-ins

40:47

with the boys that I've had released

40:50

decisions that are here or not here,

40:52

just seeing what support they need, whether

40:54

that's educational, career-based, stuff with school. anything

40:56

they need, I'm usually in touch with

40:58

them, so it's a massive variety of

41:00

stuff for the boys. But I asked Nathan

41:02

what other work that they do, any projects

41:04

that they are part of, that help sort

41:07

of develop the boys off the pitch. For

41:09

the 9-16s we had the Premier League enrichment

41:11

programme. Recently we just done the Trues project,

41:13

that was for the under 12s. What they

41:15

do is they will look at... the Christmas

41:17

truths and take bits that they learn from

41:19

it. We have a topic that comes of

41:22

it as well. So this year we did

41:24

the Powers Battalion. It looked at people from

41:26

different communities coming together. They presented that to

41:28

different community groups within Watford, different fan groups

41:30

and just... brung loads of people in

41:32

one room together, which was really nice.

41:35

So we do projects like that. We're

41:37

looking to do for the 9s to

41:39

11s an allotment project, so learn about

41:41

like growing fruits, veg, that sort of

41:43

thing. We're looking at lives, not knives,

41:45

for the 15s, and 16s. And then

41:48

for the older age groups, we have

41:50

similar sort of projects we do, but

41:52

it's more community base. So we go

41:54

into the community, do different things over

41:56

that would be stuff, the trust, the

41:58

trust, different community programs. A lot of

42:00

them feel like being a footballer makes

42:03

them good at something, whereas what they're

42:05

good at makes them a good footballer.

42:07

So I think it's just trying to

42:09

do more stuff around identity, and from

42:11

the younger kids, looking at how they

42:13

view themselves, and as that builds up,

42:15

how that changes, I think that's my

42:18

biggest one that I kind of want

42:20

to bring in is more projects around

42:22

their identity and really getting to know

42:24

themselves, rather than just looking at themselves

42:26

as footballers. And how much work has

42:28

had to happen in safeguardingarding and... play

42:30

a support in the last three years

42:32

under John O and Jimmy. It was

42:35

definitely a project. I think all credits

42:37

Katie on the safeguard inside. She really

42:39

has built this up from not a

42:41

lot with help, obviously from other departments

42:43

and different people internally and next. There's

42:45

now a trust and a communication between

42:47

all the staff, which I think coming

42:50

in a few months ago is really,

42:52

really obvious. It's really telling, genuinely makes

42:54

our job a lot easier, but that

42:56

I think has massively changed and it

42:58

is almost a culture piece. has massively

43:00

changed from a safeguarding point of view.

43:02

It's obvious, but I do think that's

43:05

just one department within the whole academy

43:07

and I think it really has grown

43:09

together. The big question was always about

43:11

bridging that gap. The man who approached

43:13

Jimmy in the stands, well a lot

43:15

of you might be feeling that. What

43:17

is it that a player needs to

43:20

do to go from being part of

43:22

our academy to being on the pitch

43:24

in the first team, allowing us to

43:26

sing that song? He's one of our

43:28

own. How things change around the academy

43:30

since Lloyd was a young fellaude was

43:32

a young fellow? back in the early

43:35

2000s. It's kind of similar. I guess

43:37

now we have bigger squads, so you

43:39

have to buy your time a little

43:41

bit longer. Back then you had a

43:43

reserve team which was a mixture of

43:45

the first team and the other 18s.

43:47

So if you've done well in the

43:49

reserve games, you had the opportunity a

43:52

little bit quicker. But when the plays

43:54

do get released or, you know, feel

43:56

like they're failed. I believe... Watson might

43:58

not be the club for them at

44:00

the... at the... at the... precise time

44:02

but there's always some of us and

44:04

you can make a good living playing

44:07

you know semi-pro football and you know

44:09

making a career for yourself working as

44:11

well. Charlie Daniels who so you may

44:13

remember for the Bournemouth team that piped

44:15

Watford to winning the championship in 2015

44:17

he is in charge of the under

44:19

21s alongside Dan Gosling also part of

44:22

that Bournemouth team but has been a

44:24

player for Watford until very very recently.

44:26

Charlie came through Tottenham's team before moving

44:28

on to Lake Norrin and then on

44:30

to Bournemouth and having a great career

44:32

in football. Dan Gosling rigid started at

44:34

Plymouth Argyle quite quickly and at a

44:37

very young age moved up to Everton

44:39

before making his way to Bournemouth and

44:41

then redeeming himself as a Watford player.

44:43

Howard's Watford Academy different for Charlie. Well,

44:45

I think it's a different era. What

44:47

we like to do here is it's

44:49

probably a bit more connected with the

44:51

players, I would say. We try and

44:54

really understand them, not just as players,

44:56

but just as people as well, and

44:58

try and help them on different journeys.

45:00

What you see, especially this academy is

45:02

the education side and everything we speak

45:04

a lot about, not only football, but

45:06

what life looks like outside of football

45:09

and what life might look like if

45:11

you don't end up. as a footballer

45:13

because such a small percentage of people

45:15

end up making it which is the

45:17

way it is and there's so many

45:19

different paths that people can go down

45:21

and it's just educating them and making

45:24

them understand and opening their eyes because

45:26

certainly when I was young that that

45:28

wasn't explained to us. Charlie and Dan

45:30

are part of the academy and and

45:32

boys are let go every single year

45:34

from the academy but they're looking after

45:36

those boys who are on the edge

45:39

of making it to the first team.

45:41

How do they think that changes things

45:43

in their things in their job? Dan

45:45

Gosling. We had sort of shut forward

45:47

with us at the start of the

45:49

season and done the whole sort of

45:51

pre-season with us. Probably knowing he's going

45:53

to leave, but nothing was ever concrete.

45:56

So we had to deal with that

45:58

and obviously not necessarily his age. but

46:00

dealing with him and how his personal

46:02

relationship is with his agent and the

46:04

talks was going on. We had to

46:06

be careful with him really. We didn't

46:08

want to push, push too hard and

46:11

there's been one or two other scenarios

46:13

as well and I think there's always

46:15

going to be that. Especially the better

46:17

ones that are trying to break through

46:19

to the first team, is there opportunity

46:21

going to come here? Are they looking

46:23

to sort of go and play first

46:26

team somewhere else? What's... The club stands

46:28

on them. Are they profitable? Again, Watford

46:30

is a business and if there's a

46:32

young lad, we sold already quite a

46:34

few for good money. I deal with

46:36

a lot and learning every day and

46:38

how to speak with them and getting

46:41

close to their agents. Another way to

46:43

bridge the gap, the loan market. How

46:45

does it work for the young academy

46:47

players and what does it do for

46:49

a player when you send them out

46:51

on loan? Here's John O again. Academy

46:53

football doesn't lend itself to preparing the

46:55

boys four men's football in our opinion.

46:58

Even category one, it's really difficult to

47:00

make that jump. But what we try

47:02

and do here, we have close links

47:04

with Kings Langley, Bedford, Podders Bar, just

47:06

local clubs basically where we try and

47:08

send our players out as young as

47:10

we can to an environment where they're

47:13

going to be challenged, where they're going

47:15

to experience an environment where results matter.

47:17

But if we're sending a first or

47:19

second year scholar to Kings Langley where

47:21

there's... a 35-year-old center forward that needs

47:23

to win the game to get his

47:25

win bonus and they're in a changing

47:28

room where if they make a mistake

47:30

then they're going to get jumped on

47:32

for it whereas you can't replicate that

47:34

here. We try and get the players

47:36

to experience that as soon as we

47:38

can and we're quite blessed really because

47:40

within the rules you can do what's

47:43

called a youth loan or the scholars

47:45

can go on a work experience so

47:47

they can go for one or two

47:49

games and then come back and drop

47:51

back in the youth loaners for 20...

47:53

days so they might get three or

47:55

four games in that period where they're

47:57

experiencing men's football. On the development side

48:00

is it good but it's also really

48:02

good for the physical side. experience and

48:04

what it takes to play at an

48:06

intensity that matters, whereas sometimes you can

48:08

cruise through academy games, but they're also

48:10

developing as people. because they're understanding what

48:12

it takes to win games and to

48:15

be an environment where results do matter.

48:17

So that's been really beneficial for us

48:19

or I think it has anyway. Charlie

48:21

Daniels. I said it to all the

48:23

players and I said it in here,

48:25

when people go out alone and they

48:27

play men's football, they come back a

48:30

different person. they understand what it's like

48:32

to play for three points and that's

48:34

something that we can't replicate in the

48:36

academy unless with the cup ties obviously

48:38

but as a every single game playing

48:40

for three points understanding what it means

48:43

is something you can't do unless you

48:45

go on loan and like God's over

48:47

saying there's different people have different pathways

48:49

so Michael was ready for first team

48:51

football. somewhere. Shackford was ready for first-in

48:53

football somewhere. That's why he went on

48:56

loan. Whereas we feel Ammon and Leo,

48:58

them type of players, wouldn't benefit for

49:00

going out on loan. They'll benefit from

49:02

staying, training with us and working their

49:04

way through different pathways. There's different ways

49:06

of getting into a first team. It's

49:09

trying to fit the right people with

49:11

the right journeys. Before he came, the

49:13

men's first team head coached. Tom Clem

49:15

clever of course was part of Watford's

49:17

Academy coaching staff. How's that changed things

49:19

for Johno this year. There's been the

49:22

first year I suppose where we've had

49:24

a what's called a development group. So

49:26

we've recognised four, five, six players that

49:28

we think have the potential. They've been

49:30

training with the first team on

49:32

a regular basis. When players come

49:34

from academy, football, go to the

49:37

first team. training. The intensity, the

49:39

speed of thought, the physical side

49:41

of the training is like up

49:43

there compared to where they are

49:45

in academy football. So this year

49:47

we've been really blessed with this

49:49

development group where players have been

49:51

able to train at that intensity,

49:53

drop back and play 21's games,

49:55

drop back and play 18's games,

49:57

like James Claridge has been trained.

50:00

over there but now he's getting the

50:02

experience of playing at St. Albans at

50:04

a decent level. It's sort of a

50:06

whole package but the loan system for

50:08

us is really important. Yeah well we've

50:10

spoiled him a little bit because that

50:12

development group bloody gets to eat in

50:14

the first team canteen now so they've

50:16

escaped the... the porter cabin where the

50:18

rest of the academy boys, so they've

50:20

been a bit spoiled with that. But

50:22

no, they love it being around the

50:24

first, and the first team players have

50:26

been brilliant with them. They've sort of

50:28

taken them under their wing and they've

50:30

fitted in really well. It's worked brilliantly,

50:32

but having cleves there has been a

50:35

big part of that as well, like

50:37

Jimmy said earlier, he knows the players

50:39

and yeah, he's really made them feel

50:41

welcome. We want to know a little

50:43

bit more about that transition or maybe

50:45

not the transition into being a professional

50:47

footballer from the current coaches at the

50:49

academy who had had careers as professional

50:51

footballers and they had quite a lot

50:53

to share. Here are their thoughts. Some

50:55

of the boys have been there since

50:57

seven years out. All they know is

50:59

Watford. All their mates are Watford. So

51:01

I understand that and it's difficult to

51:03

go elsewhere. But you should enjoy the

51:05

experience. The 97% of boys are not

51:07

good enough to even get to this

51:10

stage. Them getting to this stage is

51:12

not a failure. We've had players in

51:14

the last three or four years where

51:16

I think have been as good. unfortunately

51:18

have been moved on or sold we

51:20

just got Travis back but we've always

51:22

had quality in the academy and it's

51:24

just about them hopefully getting the chance

51:26

like he's doing now I'm in and

51:28

he played Tuesday night in the first

51:30

team back with us with the 18th

51:32

on a Thursday so that's bringing him

51:34

back down to earth straight away and

51:36

was good as gold and then back

51:38

with the first team again on the

51:40

Saturday. So that roller coaster he's dealing

51:43

with and he's dealing with really well

51:45

I think sets the boys up for

51:47

good stead. It's probably the hardest jump

51:49

from 21s into a first team. They

51:51

sign a professional contract and they think,

51:53

I've made it, I'm in the first

51:55

team, I'm that close, it's just one

51:57

more step. But it's the biggest jump.

51:59

Just say you're a goalie and you

52:01

want to play in a football league.

52:03

You've only got 92 opportunities to play

52:05

in a football league. So you've got

52:07

to be better than 91 other people

52:09

to get in that thing. And it's

52:11

getting them to understand that you've got

52:13

yourself into this part, this moment of

52:15

your career. Now the next jump is

52:18

the biggest. And how quickly can we

52:20

get you from there to there? If

52:22

it does happen, it might not be

52:24

our first team. It might be another

52:26

first team. But for us. It's getting

52:28

them to understand what. being a professional

52:30

is and it's day in day out

52:32

and working hard and patience is the

52:34

key for a lot of them especially

52:36

kids nowadays they get everything so instant

52:38

that patience is probably the hardest thing

52:40

that they they try to get grips

52:42

with because they just want everything everything

52:44

right now but it's just getting them

52:46

to understand our main focus is trying

52:48

to get them into the game and

52:50

getting them into a first team environment

52:53

with and for them personally it might

52:55

be for their parents or their agents

52:57

different things or maybe just their interests

52:59

that they want to have that on

53:01

their side because they understand the the

53:03

pitfalls of what football can bring. If

53:05

you work in the Cattu Academy you're

53:07

always going to be liable to losing

53:09

you but better ones. Chelsea's model is...

53:11

getting the best youngsters from all over

53:13

the world whether that's in England or

53:15

like I say Europe or wherever it

53:17

might be but we we try and

53:19

offer the best pathway to a first

53:21

team here we obviously try and sort

53:23

of look at our golden players and

53:26

try and help them as much as

53:28

we can but sometimes it's The player

53:30

wants to go, sometimes when Man City,

53:32

when Chelsea, they come calling, it's tough

53:34

to say no. Similar to when I

53:36

was coming through, when the Premier League

53:38

club, I could have stayed and said

53:40

no, I want to play a championship

53:42

was a great level and I was

53:44

playing. I went there and went in

53:46

the reserves and that's cash 22. Do

53:48

you go and be one of a

53:50

number of players or do you stay

53:52

and fight out and battle for a

53:54

first team? And that's what you got

53:56

a way up with your family, with

53:58

your family, with your agent, with your

54:01

agent, with yourself and what you, and

54:03

what you, and what you, and what

54:05

you want. So it is challenging, but

54:07

it's really, really difficult to say no

54:09

to a big club. Dan Gosling's been

54:11

around the club fairly recently. When he

54:13

was a player, did he notice the

54:15

academy much? To be honest, when I

54:17

was a player, I never looked at

54:19

this side of the building. It was

54:21

never a discussion in the dressing room,

54:23

never a discussion over that side. It

54:25

was completely separate. That's how I felt.

54:27

Until I started working here, now I'm

54:29

like... Academy side and I want everything

54:31

of what they've got for our lads.

54:34

And now with Tom in charge, it

54:36

couldn't be any better than what it

54:38

is now for the Academy Press. So

54:40

most of the coaches have experienced the

54:42

Watford Way when they were young players

54:44

or like Dan when he was a

54:46

player at the club. But like Charlie,

54:48

how has he found things since he's

54:50

come to Academy? When Richard Johnson and

54:52

Jimmy Gillen and Toba. Obviously I'd come

54:54

in just after them. I know what

54:56

Graham Taylor meant to them and I

54:58

know how much they wanted to bring

55:00

it into the academy and they're just

55:02

two great people and what they're doing

55:04

is trying to make the academy the

55:06

best it can be. What you've seen

55:09

now I think for people who've probably

55:11

been here longer than me, probably what

55:13

it was under the old regime to

55:15

what it is now how much we

55:17

move forward. I think everyone would agree

55:19

it's made a big jump and everyone's

55:21

closer together and you've seen kids now

55:23

in the younger. in like the real

55:25

younger age group when they've got a

55:27

chance to go to an Arsenal, Tottenham,

55:29

Chelsea, they're actually choosing Watford because of

55:31

how they feel and how the kids

55:33

feel and how much they enjoy it.

55:35

So we're actually providing a better service

55:37

I guess than the cat ones just

55:39

because of our... said a little touch

55:41

to the family feel around this place.

55:44

I can remember when I was growing

55:46

up. coming through the academy we had

55:48

to depend on the youngsters coming through

55:50

unfortunately we didn't have the money or

55:52

fortunately for me we didn't have the

55:54

money to be buying in a million

55:56

pound players I don't know how the

55:58

first teams financially is but currently there's

56:00

a lot of injuries there's a few

56:02

injuries and You know, we're actually breading

56:04

the youngsters into that environment and I

56:06

think that's needed. Our boys at the

56:08

moment, on the sixties, on the fiftines,

56:10

are seeing this happening. That gives them

56:12

more belief that one day that could

56:14

be there. But one of the realities

56:17

for Watford and this academy is the

56:19

fact that we're developing young players, we're

56:21

making them better, but they could still

56:23

possibly be taken and go off to

56:25

another club. Like Harry and Mass, who's

56:27

now at Manchester United. Charlie. Charlie Daniels.

56:29

The players we see progressing and making

56:31

into a first team quicker than others,

56:33

it's how quickly can we get him

56:35

into under 18s, under 21s, so I

56:37

had Harry when he was in under

56:39

16, I think it was, in the

56:42

under 18s, playing them all season and

56:44

it was us developing him with the

56:46

under 16 training and then me maybe

56:48

coming in on a nighttime, maybe to

56:50

talk through some stuff and him getting

56:52

out, but he's getting him ready. for

56:54

what was hopefully next in our eyes,

56:56

which was obviously progressing into a first

56:58

team. I know he travelled with the

57:01

first team against Redding Away in an

57:03

F.A. Cup game. But always in our

57:05

back of our minds was the big

57:07

boys are watching him and maybe taking

57:09

him and that's something that we have

57:11

to accept. But if we can get

57:13

him into another club and like you

57:15

said he'd been on a bench, it's

57:17

a win for us as well because

57:20

we worked so hard with these young

57:22

guys to try and push him. Of

57:24

course Dan Gosling was around the Watford

57:26

first team when Ryan Andrews was first

57:28

breaking into it. Everyone's journey is different

57:30

so Ryan I don't think had a loan

57:32

spell. I think we were short of defender

57:34

short of right backs. I think it's

57:37

Chris Wilder brought him up. I was

57:39

injured at the time, paying right back,

57:41

I was injured at the time, paying

57:43

right back before so there's another

57:45

one down and he come in

57:47

and took his chance and that's

57:49

sometimes you're there on merit. and

57:51

now he's fixed in the first

57:53

time squad and rightly so he's

57:55

done remarkably well since he made

57:57

his debut. I'm in Leo obviously...

58:00

the first team a lot now. They

58:02

haven't had a loan spell yet. I've

58:04

done it whether it was probably right

58:06

for them to go alone. It probably

58:09

wasn't. They're getting more benefit from training

58:11

with the first team guys every day.

58:13

We've had a different scenario. Michael had

58:16

a pocket who's had four, five, six

58:18

loans, different steps from an early age.

58:20

So he's sort of built his way

58:22

up and his last loan was national

58:25

league and now his... getting interest from

58:27

League 2 for another loan but he's

58:29

done so well that we've actually recalled

58:32

him back and now he's part of

58:34

the first team squad for the time

58:36

being and then it's again it's weight

58:39

of your opportunity and when it comes

58:41

can you take it. But can Charlie

58:43

remember all the graduates from the academy

58:45

that have had a first team appearance

58:48

over the last couple of seasons? We've

58:50

got Ryan Andrews, James Morris, Toby Adiyadiymo,

58:52

Michaelata Poker, Zav Masa Adj, Albert Eems.

58:55

Jack Greaves, Amin, Nabazzala, Leo Ramirez of

58:57

Spad, that's nine, Shackford 10, Camille Conto,

58:59

11 so far in three and a

59:01

half years. So three years in, almost

59:04

four, so much been achieved by Johno

59:06

and Jimmy, across the academy, on the

59:08

pitch, but more importantly off the pitch,

59:11

helping boys turn to men, and maybe

59:13

not footballers, but at least into better

59:15

human beings. But what next is a

59:18

category one Academy... Only a dream? To

59:20

give you a rough idea investment from

59:22

the Premier League for a cat too

59:24

is eight hundred and four thousand pounds

59:27

so that goes towards the operational costs

59:29

and things like that and then there's

59:31

a minimum amount the club have to

59:34

put in and that jumps up significantly

59:36

to a category one academy and then

59:38

you have to improve the facilities you

59:41

need extra pictures and there's extra staff

59:43

so it does come at a cost

59:45

but in terms they've been able to

59:47

peat with the other clubs then I

59:50

think if we got to a category

59:52

one status, then we'd be in a

59:54

better position. And what about Jimmy? What

59:57

is his dream for the Academy? Having

59:59

players from the... recognized by the first

1:00:01

team staff and probably go higher up

1:00:03

the food chain and the border directors

1:00:06

so they know about one or two

1:00:08

of these young kids that would have

1:00:10

to be it when I go back

1:00:13

to what I said maybe that that

1:00:15

fan comes down and says no one's

1:00:17

come from the youth team you know

1:00:20

it's not going to happen well it

1:00:22

is happening and long mate continued to

1:00:24

happen and we will do everything in

1:00:26

our power to do that. as we

1:00:29

move forward. If I could have two

1:00:31

things, it would be obviously making sure,

1:00:33

and we do it now, successfully, year

1:00:36

on year, we pass the Pjak audit.

1:00:38

Pjak is our offstead. We have a

1:00:40

online one every year, but every second

1:00:43

or third year we get fully off

1:00:45

steadied or Pjak for want of the

1:00:47

word, and can you continue to make

1:00:49

sure that we're fit for purpose as

1:00:52

an academy? Obviously it's great when you're

1:00:54

walking this building, like I said, proudest

1:00:56

thing for me is the operational side

1:00:59

like the actual the rules of regulations

1:01:01

because it's so complicated and complex and

1:01:03

like I said from when we first

1:01:05

come in there was so many things

1:01:08

wrong that needed correcting and in every

1:01:10

department and I think when you look

1:01:12

at it now Jimmy's talking about the

1:01:15

order and the PJ you actually get

1:01:17

an action plan at the back end

1:01:19

of that once it's completed. and we're

1:01:22

down to like five points now on

1:01:24

that five areas and they're basically qualifications

1:01:26

of staff members and that's down to

1:01:28

lack of courses being put on by

1:01:31

the FA or how long it takes

1:01:33

to get staff on courses so everything

1:01:35

outside of that. Now we're in a

1:01:38

really good place. It has been stressful.

1:01:40

I've got to be honest with you,

1:01:42

but like I said at the start

1:01:45

of this, we've got some really good

1:01:47

people in the building, some fabulous coaches,

1:01:49

support staff. In terms of the operational

1:01:51

side, I'm really proud of where that's

1:01:54

got to, but also super proud of

1:01:56

the amount of boys that we've had

1:01:58

experience. it's the first team. I think

1:02:01

we learned quite a lot there didn't

1:02:03

we? Really genuinely fascinating thanks to everyone

1:02:05

who gave up up their time. Yeah

1:02:07

it was I think we achieved what

1:02:10

I certainly wanted to do which was

1:02:12

to really have a poke around and

1:02:14

to ask some quite difficult questions or

1:02:17

probing questions about how we're doing things

1:02:19

at this football club and I think

1:02:21

what was telling for me was certainly

1:02:24

hearing from John Owen Jimmy with just

1:02:26

how... much of a big job they

1:02:28

had on and I think there is

1:02:30

a there's probably a reason for that

1:02:33

because what for the been in the

1:02:35

Premier League for a reasonable stint and

1:02:37

I think people accepted that the focus

1:02:40

had to be on bringing in oven

1:02:42

ready players if you call that phrase

1:02:44

again bringing in players that are going

1:02:46

to help keep us in the Premier

1:02:49

League and if so diverting sort of

1:02:51

attention that way you'd rather not but

1:02:53

you understand that's why it was but

1:02:56

I think it was telling to hear

1:02:58

just how big a job that was

1:03:00

required and the fact that it is

1:03:03

being done by two types of people

1:03:05

that share the same vision are the

1:03:07

people who know and love and adore

1:03:09

and understand what for football club and

1:03:12

other people who aren't necessarily from the

1:03:14

area but understand the football club in

1:03:16

its ethos but obviously understand the importance

1:03:19

of a successful academy and its role

1:03:21

within football and it just feels to

1:03:23

me like in an era where football

1:03:26

is problematic and we've seen documentaries you

1:03:28

hear stories about kids being chewed up

1:03:30

and spat out and evidently isn't the

1:03:32

case the sort of the pastoral care

1:03:35

if you like the overarching the all-encompassing

1:03:37

role that the football club has in

1:03:39

shaping these lads lives human beings exactly

1:03:42

that they may well not turn out

1:03:44

to be first-team footballers at Watford the

1:03:46

likelihood is they won't some of them

1:03:48

will go on to have good careers

1:03:51

in football, some might go on to

1:03:53

have, you know, Matti Bednes is a

1:03:55

perfect example, never had a debut at

1:03:58

Watford, but has gone on. to achieve

1:04:00

great things, coaching the under-18s, the semi-files,

1:04:02

the FA Youth Cup. I think it's,

1:04:05

what they're helping to do is understand

1:04:07

that if you get to a level

1:04:09

as a footballer, but don't make it

1:04:11

at that football club or don't go

1:04:14

on to be a footballer, that is

1:04:16

by no means a failure, as long

1:04:18

as you're looked after properly, and that's

1:04:21

what Watford are doing. a lot of

1:04:23

the time as Watford supporters, we sort

1:04:25

of scratch our heads as to what

1:04:28

is it that makes Watford so special.

1:04:30

We know it, we feel it

1:04:32

in our bones, but there has

1:04:34

to be some tangible examples of

1:04:36

that. And yes, what happens on

1:04:38

the first 11 pictures is important,

1:04:40

but it's about having a club

1:04:42

that cares for its people, cares

1:04:44

for the community, and develops people.

1:04:46

And that's evidently what's happening. So

1:04:48

I think it is an absolute

1:04:50

thrill. to hear so many various

1:04:52

people from so many different backgrounds

1:04:54

talking so passionately about what they

1:04:56

want to achieve and are evidently

1:04:59

achieving here at Watford. I think

1:05:01

it was hugely hugely rewarding. Thank you

1:05:03

very much listening to this podcast. We

1:05:05

hope you enjoyed it. It gives you

1:05:08

free back, send us your email, podcast

1:05:10

at from the Rookerin.com. But yeah, mainly

1:05:12

we hope that the little insight we

1:05:14

got into the youth and the academy.

1:05:17

was enjoyable to listen to. We're back

1:05:19

with more podcast, very very soon. Coneyones!