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income. The

1:00

missing child is Lucia Blix,

1:02

nine years old. Please let

1:04

her come back home safely.

1:07

Thursdays. The kidnappers fund

1:10

it meticulously. If money is what

1:12

it takes to get her back, we're going to pay it.

1:14

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1:16

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1:19

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1:21

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where she is. The

1:25

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1:27

Stream on Hulu. This

1:30

podcast contains adult themes and language and

1:32

some of the things that we

1:34

discuss may be disturbing to some listeners.

1:36

In this podcast, we discuss sexual

1:38

assault, torture, race, and murder. Listener discretion

1:40

is advised. Please take care of

1:42

yourself. What

2:04

do you got, Beth? Well,

2:06

James Edward Poppew was born

2:08

on February 16th, 1948, and

2:10

he was the first of

2:12

nine children, so a lot

2:14

of kids. And

2:16

as we mentioned in our history section

2:18

of the full podcast, which is cut

2:20

short for Fruit Loop Short, he

2:22

grew up in Hanson Town,

2:24

a black neighborhood which no

2:26

longer exists. and is now

2:29

the site of Florida State

2:31

College Jacksonville's downtown campus. He

2:33

suffered from asthma, and he

2:35

had a close relationship with his

2:37

mother. By the way, gotta say real

2:39

quick about asthma. It's not uncommon

2:41

in like, I'm thinking of the Bronx,

2:43

which has a really high rate

2:45

of kids with asthma. Black and

2:47

brown kids, poor kids. Yes,

2:49

because of pollution, and also

2:52

because of their proximity

2:54

to like industry. and

2:56

waste, you know, the establishment

2:59

and the municipality will say, hey, the landfill

3:01

can go here. It can go over by the

3:03

black neighborhood where black people live. Yeah. So

3:06

things like that are not uncommon.

3:08

And sometimes I think you can draw

3:10

a line or a link between

3:12

like how did the housing development and

3:14

the way their community was set

3:16

up and led to asthma. Anyway, all

3:18

that to say, he had a

3:20

close relationship with his mother, especially after

3:22

his father left the family in

3:24

1959. So he was born in 48.

3:26

He had eight siblings. The

3:29

father left in 1959. So

3:31

the mom was having kids

3:33

every year. And then the

3:35

father just bailed. Yeah. Yeah.

3:38

Yeah. Uh huh. So

3:40

Pew attended vocational school, but he

3:42

dropped out in his sophomore

3:44

year. And at the age

3:46

of 18, he began working as

3:48

a common laborer. His early years

3:50

were marked by reported associations with

3:52

street gangs, and we've talked about

3:54

that's a survival skill in, or

3:56

I don't know if skill is

3:58

the right word. Yeah, or

4:00

a means of survival. Some

4:02

sort of community, right? Yeah,

4:05

to help you. And

4:07

he had multiple arrests

4:09

for offenses, such as attempted

4:11

robbery, assault, and vagrancy

4:13

prowling by Otto, which sounded

4:15

really weird to me. So

4:17

I had to look it

4:19

up and this now largely

4:21

defunct charge was used to

4:23

arrest individuals for driving under

4:26

quote unquote, suspicious circumstances. Okay,

4:28

we can read

4:30

between the lines there.

4:32

Yeah. So historically, broad

4:35

vagrancy laws in some cities

4:37

and states criminalize behaviors linked

4:39

to poverty, idleness or perceived

4:41

suspicious activity, but they never say they

4:43

never call it that, right? They give

4:45

it another name. of vagrancy

4:47

prowling by Otto was one

4:50

such law often used to target

4:52

marginalized groups for simply driving

4:54

around. So driving while black.

4:56

And, you know, this is kind

4:58

of the leftover crumbs from slavery, the

5:01

American gift that keeps on given.

5:03

Yeah, Jim Crow laws. Yeah, culture

5:06

corner with Wendy and Beth. So

5:08

after slavery, vagrancy laws were

5:10

a part of a set of

5:12

laws. or black codes enacted

5:14

by states and municipalities to control

5:16

black people's bodies, their conduct,

5:18

and their labor. Something that

5:21

was hard to do after emancipation.

5:23

All this property is just walking

5:25

around property aka black people and

5:27

we couldn't control them anymore. So

5:29

the laws were enacted to allow

5:31

authorities to arrest black people for

5:33

just standing around or driving around

5:35

or mining their business. And then

5:37

they would get detained incarcerated and

5:39

forced to work on like a

5:41

chain gain, or even could be

5:44

auctioned off to a planter or

5:46

somebody who needed a laborer. And

5:48

some statutes, yeah, required black people

5:50

to have written proof of employment,

5:52

literally showing your papers to

5:54

prove they had permission to

5:56

leave their job. And

5:58

any black person who was stopped without

6:00

a permit from a white

6:02

employer could be arrested for

6:04

vagrancy. That's fucked up. I

6:06

mean, obviously. Yeah. Pretty fucked

6:09

up. Yeah, it is. I

6:11

don't like it. Yeah. Not a fan.

6:13

Not a fan of that. No. So

6:16

as an adult, James

6:18

lived on Jacksonville's north side,

6:21

an area comprising a blend

6:23

of residential, industrial and commercial

6:25

spaces. It had a significant

6:27

black population and was home to

6:29

many working class black families. Pew

6:32

worked and took care of his younger

6:34

siblings who called him Pop, so that's

6:36

where he got the nickname Pop. Got

6:38

it. Which makes sense because his dad

6:41

left, so he became their father figure.

6:43

Yeah. Yeah. Took on that role. In

6:45

1971, James Edward Pew took

6:47

a gun from his girlfriend's

6:50

purse and shot his friend,

6:52

David Lee Pender, three times in

6:54

the chest killing him. Yikes.

6:56

Yeah. It says he was a

6:58

friend, but the attack occurred

7:00

after the two men and their

7:02

girlfriends left a nightclub following

7:05

an argument in which David insulted

7:07

Pew's girlfriend. Pew was initially

7:09

charged with murder, though the charge

7:11

was later reduced to manslaughter.

7:13

He was eventually allowed to plead

7:15

guilty to aggravated assault, and

7:18

he was sentenced to five years

7:20

probation, but his adjudication was

7:22

withheld. Huh, five years probation for

7:24

taking a life which For murder.

7:26

Yeah. For murder, which is -

7:28

I think that kind of plays

7:30

a role in his mentality later

7:32

on. In my opinion, I'll get

7:34

into it in my takes. Okay,

7:36

alright. So adjudication withheld means that

7:38

although the defendant pleaded guilty or

7:41

was found guilty, the court did

7:43

not issue a formal conviction. Instead,

7:46

the defendant is placed on probation

7:48

and if they successfully complete it,

7:50

the charges will be dismissed with

7:52

no conviction. However, if

7:54

they fail to complete the probation,

7:56

a guilty verdict will be entered and

7:58

the defendant will be sentenced. So

8:01

it's a special sentence that

8:03

allows the defendant to complete conditions

8:05

instead of serving jail time

8:07

and therefore avoid having a criminal

8:09

record. And it's usually used

8:11

for first time offenders or less

8:13

serious offenses. So we're not

8:15

sure why he was offered this,

8:17

but he was. And in

8:19

any case, according to his family,

8:21

Pew never got over the

8:23

fact that he killed his friend.

8:25

So maybe he showed a

8:27

lot of remorse. Yeah. And that's

8:29

why. I don't know. But

8:31

apparently he never got over it.

8:33

Yeah. Yeah. I wonder how that

8:35

manifested. I mean, in his relationships. We'll

8:38

talk about those in a second. Yeah.

8:40

But yeah. So

8:42

after 1971, Pew's troubles were

8:44

mostly financial. In

8:47

1977, the General Finance

8:49

Corp. which had lent him

8:51

$919 two years earlier, won

8:53

a judgment when he fell

8:55

behind on his monthly payments. That

8:58

same year, Main Street Radiator sued

9:01

him for $302 that he owed

9:03

them in car repair bills.

9:05

Now that was a lot of

9:07

money back then in the

9:09

70s, right? But it's also a

9:11

lot of money if you don't have it.

9:13

So yeah, I always say $20 is a

9:15

lot of money. It might as well be

9:17

$1 ,000 if you don't have it. Yeah,

9:19

just send me the bill. I'll just laugh

9:21

at it. I can't pay it. Yeah. In

9:25

December of 1988, Pew traded in

9:27

his old car for a

9:29

brand new Pontiac Grand Am. At

9:32

some point, Pew got married.

9:34

We're not sure when, but by

9:36

1989, he was married to

9:38

a woman named Teresa. So

9:40

things must have turned around. Yeah, money

9:42

wise. Yeah, I guess so money wise.

9:44

But I was thinking, you know, after

9:46

he got in trouble for killing his

9:48

friend, it seemed like he was not

9:50

getting in any trouble after that, except

9:52

for financially. Like he didn't get arrested

9:55

for anything. Yeah. Yeah.

9:57

And he got this new

9:59

Pontiac and he's married. Yeah.

10:01

Yeah. We've been moving on up.

10:05

Sorry, I'll stop. So it is said

10:07

that he led a quiet life,

10:09

as always the quiet ones, rarely

10:12

had visitors, and he didn't

10:14

seem to drink. He worked as

10:16

a laborer in construction at a place

10:18

called WWGay, where it was said

10:20

that he had a positive attitude and

10:22

rarely missed work, even working on

10:24

weekends. His employers liked and

10:26

respected him, describing him as the

10:28

kind of employee that, quote, they

10:31

like to keep, unquote. Pew

10:33

usually left for work around 6

10:35

.30 a .m. with his hard hat,

10:37

a cooler and a thermos in

10:39

hand, and then returned home about

10:41

4 p .m. In his spare

10:43

time, he liked to work out

10:45

with weights and bed at

10:47

the dog track. Yeah, so pretty

10:49

like regular dude stuff. Yeah.

10:52

He was known by his neighbors

10:54

as a quiet and nice

10:56

man who kept a regular and

10:58

fixed schedule, though also as

11:00

someone you should never cross. because

11:02

he had a very bad

11:04

temper and red flag alert so

11:06

he was known to anger

11:08

easily and fairly quickly and he

11:11

sometimes engaged in raged filled conversations

11:13

which is

11:15

I don't even know how you

11:17

have a conversation when you're filled with

11:19

rage it would just be like Heavy breathing

11:21

and foaming at the mouth. And yelling.

11:23

Yeah. Clearly he was probably the only

11:25

one engaged in these conversations. You

11:28

know when somebody gets so bad and

11:30

you're just like looking at them like, wow.

11:32

What the fuck? How did that happen?

11:34

And he would get like this, especially in

11:36

matters concerning money and his car. Subtle

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13:57

we're going to move on to

13:59

the timeline. Hit it, Beth.

14:02

So Pew's mother died

14:04

in 1987. As we

14:06

mentioned earlier, he had a close relationship

14:08

with her and he'd taken care of

14:10

her for years. So afterwards,

14:13

Pew was said to have changed for

14:15

the worse. And it was around

14:17

this time that Pew was sometimes heard

14:19

to say that he had, quote,

14:21

Nothing left to live for, unquote, and

14:23

that he would, quote, take someone

14:25

with him when he leaves this world,

14:27

unquote. Wow.

14:30

Yeah. No, no, not good. And, you know, I

14:32

think we all understand loss, right?

14:34

The loss of a loved one.

14:37

Yeah. And those feelings of helplessness.

14:39

What do I do now? Yeah,

14:41

hopelessness. But I've never once thought

14:43

I'm going to take somebody with

14:45

me. No, no, never. So that

14:47

is, I think that's unusual. Unfortunately.

14:50

He often had violent outbursts

14:52

directed at his wife, Teresa. Twice,

14:55

he threatened her by putting a

14:57

gun to her head. Understandably,

14:59

Teresa feared for her safety,

15:01

and in January of 1990,

15:04

she left him. That same

15:06

month, Pew's grandam was repossessed

15:08

by General Motors Acceptance Corporation, or

15:11

GMAC. after Pew got

15:13

behind on his payment. And

15:15

in March, Pew received

15:17

a bill for outstanding fees

15:19

from GMAC in the

15:21

amount of $6 ,394, which

15:23

is a shit ton of

15:25

money. Oh my God,

15:27

yeah. In the 90s?

15:29

Yeah. Oh my God. Even

15:31

now. Yeah. Also, in March,

15:34

at the same time, Teresa

15:36

was granted an injunction that

15:38

prohibited Pew from contacting her

15:40

for a year. So

15:42

a lot of shit was going

15:44

down. A lot of shit was

15:46

going down. But this reminds me of

15:48

that song called The Message that

15:50

dropped in 1982 by Grandmaster Flash. OK.

15:53

Because a man with a totic

15:55

repossessed my car. Don't push me. Because

15:57

I'm close to the edge. I'm

15:59

trying not to lose my head.

16:01

And that is where our subject

16:03

finds himself today. Go to Beth.

16:05

Yeah. So Pew

16:08

became reclusive and rarely socialized.

16:10

He was the only tenant

16:12

in a three building set

16:14

of rundown duplexes on West

16:16

22nd Street in Mon Creek

16:18

Park, a majority black

16:20

neighborhood in Jacksonville's Northwest

16:23

Quadrant. He had lived in

16:25

the upstairs apartment of the central

16:27

building for 10 years. For

16:29

the first couple of weeks in

16:31

June, Pew's neighbors on West

16:33

22nd Street reported that he was

16:35

firing guns into the air

16:38

every night. Yikes. Wow. Was

16:40

he getting ready for Juneteenth?

16:42

No. So then on June

16:44

16th, a Saturday night, Pew

16:46

took his green Buick out

16:48

for a drive. That

16:50

night, two teenagers, Chris

16:52

Shorter and Lynette Johnson, were

16:54

sitting on a car outside of Lynette's

16:56

mother's house. Chris and Lynette always

16:58

felt safe in their neighborhood. They knew

17:01

that crime existed, but their lives were

17:03

filled with love. Lynette came

17:05

from a close -knit family. Her mother

17:07

Louise was a nurse, and both

17:09

she and her sister Valerie followed in

17:11

her mother's footsteps. Around 11pm

17:13

as the teenagers sat there

17:15

talking, Pew drove by and

17:17

slowed down to stop and ask them

17:19

something. Chris went to the Buick

17:21

and leaned down to see what the man

17:24

wanted. A gleam from the back

17:26

seat caught his peripherals, and when

17:28

he looked, he saw a semi

17:30

-automatic rifle laying on the back

17:32

seat. As Chris backed up from

17:34

the car, Pew began asking

17:36

for directions. Chris later

17:38

said, quote, this man say, do you

17:40

know where? And I backed up and he shot

17:42

me, unquote. He

17:44

shot Chris in the shoulder with

17:46

a .38 caliber revolver. He

17:49

then shot Lynette in the chest and

17:51

in the back. Thankfully, they both

17:53

survived and Chris was able to describe

17:55

the shooter and the green Buick

17:57

to police. Lynette's sister Valerie later recalled,

18:00

quote, we all used to love

18:02

to sit outside at night on the step

18:04

outside my mama's house. Springtime,

18:06

summertime, listening to

18:08

all the cars on the

18:11

expressway, unquote. Oh man, that

18:13

sounds like I can see it. Yes.

18:15

I can smell it. I can

18:17

hear it. Feel it. Yeah. But

18:19

after that night, everything changed.

18:21

The teens no longer felt

18:23

safe, not outside. not near

18:25

a window, not even in their own

18:27

home or a car. Lynette carried

18:29

a bullet in her lung until

18:31

she died in 2015. Wow.

18:34

So later that same night,

18:37

at about 12 .50 a .m., a

18:39

man named Louis Carl Bacon,

18:41

39, described by his

18:43

family as a disabled veteran, was

18:45

shot one block north and one

18:47

block east of Pew's apartment. Shortly

18:49

afterward a woman named Doretta Drake

18:51

was shot on the corner of

18:54

Myrtle and West 22nd Street on

18:56

the same block as Pew's apartment. Lewis

18:59

was shot twice in the chest and

19:01

Doretta was shot once in the

19:03

head, both with a rifle. They both

19:05

died. Because the two were

19:07

involved in the sex industry, many articles

19:09

at the time did not even

19:12

give their names, just referred to them

19:14

as a pimp and a prostitute.

19:16

Horrible. Yeah. We know they're much more

19:18

than that. They were human beings,

19:20

somebody's child, relative friend, etc. But

19:22

police assume that the reason behind these

19:25

killings was a failed sex -for -money deal.

19:27

So they don't have to investigate it?

19:29

Right. Probably. Yeah. Okay. Oh, it was

19:31

just a failed sex -for -money deal. Yeah.

19:33

No biggie. Yeah. No biggie. Unbelievable. So

19:36

Pew shot Chris Shorter, Lynette

19:38

Johnson, Lewis Carl Bacon, and

19:40

Doretta Drake within seven

19:42

blocks Saturday night. And

19:44

Pew lived right in the middle. The

19:46

next day, Sunday, which happened

19:48

to be Father's Day, police

19:50

began knocking on doors in

19:52

Pew's neighborhood, asking questions. They

19:55

knocked on Pew's apartment door, but no

19:57

one answered, so they just left a

19:59

calling card on the door, basically a

20:01

business card. Some reports say

20:03

that Pew also robbed a convenience

20:05

store that day, but we could

20:07

not find confirmation of this. In

20:09

any case, on the morning of

20:12

Monday, June 18, at about 10 .45

20:14

a .m., Pew went to the G

20:16

-Max Auto Loan Office, located in

20:18

Bay Meadows, a suburban

20:20

upper middle class, mostly white

20:22

neighborhood. And he was

20:24

carrying a semi -automatic rifle,

20:26

which... bruh. What?

20:30

Bruh. GMAC

20:33

had no security measures or

20:35

bulletproof glass. Pew just walked right

20:37

in without saying a word

20:39

and began shooting. Oh my

20:42

god. And as an aside, in

20:44

June of 1990, mass shootings

20:46

in the United States had

20:48

only a slightly longer history

20:50

than the mass production of

20:52

assault rifles. No, get out. Yeah,

20:54

which took off after Colt's

20:56

patent for the AR -15

20:58

design expired in 1977. And with

21:00

that patent, no longer in

21:02

effect, other manufacturers began producing

21:05

their own versions of the

21:07

AR -15, contributing to the

21:09

widespread availability of AR

21:11

style rifles. Now

21:16

we know who to point the figure at. It's

21:18

Colt's fault. Well, I

21:20

don't, yeah. I

21:22

don't know. We'll get into

21:24

more on that later. Yeah,

21:26

I don't know if we'll get into it or not. Well,

21:28

just on the gun debate on that. Yes,

21:31

that's true. Okay. So

21:33

86 employees sat at their desks

21:35

and cubicles in the autolone

21:37

office, but it was the customers

21:39

that Pugh shot first. Julia

21:42

White Burgess. A 42

21:44

-year -old customer from

21:46

Green Cove Springs was

21:48

Pew's first victim. She

21:51

was waiting at the front counter to

21:53

make a car payment on her son's

21:55

car when Pew started shooting. Another

21:57

customer, 24 -year -old David

22:00

Hendricks of Jacksonville, who

22:02

had stopped to make a payment on

22:04

his pickup, was seriously wounded. Gunshots

22:06

collapsing both of his lungs.

22:08

Then Cynthia Perry, 30 of Melrose,

22:10

and Barbara Holland, 45 of

22:13

Jacksonville, who worked side by side

22:15

near the front counter, were

22:17

shot dead at their desks. Panicked

22:20

workers ran towards exits and hid

22:22

under desks as Pew methodically

22:24

made his way through the office.

22:27

Janice David, 40 and Nancy

22:29

Dill, 31, both of

22:31

Jacksonville, were shot together. Janice

22:34

died. Although Nancy was shot

22:36

in her abdomen, both arms

22:38

and both legs, she survived.

22:41

Wow. Newspapers reported that Nancy

22:43

had been shot 13 times.

22:45

When asked about it later,

22:47

Nancy said that she was

22:49

only shot seven times but

22:51

had 13 holes. Oh my

22:53

God. Wow. Yeah. Also

22:56

killed that morning were Drew

22:58

Woods, a 36 -year -old credit

23:01

representative, GMAC employee Sharon

23:03

Louise Hall, 45, and

23:05

Lee Simonton, 33 -year -old

23:07

customer relations manager. both

23:09

of Jacksonville. 50 -year -old

23:11

G -Max stenographer Jewel Belote was

23:14

shot and initially survived, but

23:16

died of her wounds 10 days

23:18

later. Numerous calls to

23:20

911 documented the victim's

23:22

terror as Pew moved through

23:24

the office, poking his semi -automatic

23:27

rifle under desks and shooting

23:29

some of the victims five to

23:31

seven times. Various callers

23:33

described the weapon as a

23:35

semi -automatic and one incorrectly called

23:37

it an AK -47. If you

23:39

don't know guns, I mean, they all

23:41

look the same to me. They look the

23:43

same, yeah. So then Sheriff James McMillan

23:45

said, quote, he just shot until

23:47

there was no one else to

23:50

shoot, unquote. Lieutenant Steve Weintraub,

23:52

who was the Jacksonville Sheriff's

23:54

Office spokesman at the time, later

23:56

said, quote, and that was

23:58

the worst crime scene I've ever

24:00

seen as a police officer.

24:02

I've never seen such carnage,

24:04

unquote. Robert Hifill, a Jackson

24:06

police officer, had returned home that

24:08

morning after playing tennis when

24:10

another officer stopped by to tell

24:13

him about the shooting at GMAC. Hifill's

24:15

wife, Denise Sap Hifill,

24:17

36, worked at the loan

24:19

company. Hifill called GMAC. There

24:22

was no answer. He called the

24:24

police communications officer, who knew nothing

24:26

about his wife. He and the

24:28

other officer decided to drive down

24:30

to the GMAC office. Heifel

24:32

found out that his wife had

24:35

been taken to the hospital. When

24:37

he arrived at University Medical Center,

24:39

he learned that his wife had

24:41

died. Oh, that's awful. Within

24:43

just a few minutes, Pugh

24:45

had murdered nine people and

24:48

injured four others. Pugh's

24:50

final act was to pull a

24:52

.38 revolver and shoot himself in

24:54

the head. It was the same

24:56

gun he'd used to shoot Chris

24:58

and Lynette. So that is

25:00

all for the timeline now

25:03

we're going to move on into

25:05

the investigation Police found 50

25:07

spent ammunition shells and three different

25:09

weapons a 30 caliber rifle

25:11

a 38 caliber revolver and a

25:14

9 millimeter pistol found in

25:16

the trunk of his Buick Pew

25:18

was connected to the murders

25:20

of Louis Bacon and Doretta Drake

25:22

and the shootings of Chris

25:24

shorter and Lynette Johnson through ballistics

25:27

Under federal law, Pew was

25:29

technically ineligible to own a gun

25:31

because he pleaded guilty to

25:33

a felony in the 1971 case,

25:35

the murder case. But under

25:37

Florida law, he could own a

25:40

gun because the judge who

25:42

handled his case withheld adjudication, meaning

25:44

that the felony was erased

25:46

from his record when he successfully

25:48

completed his five -year probation. Oh

25:51

my god,

25:54

if there was a giant crack.

25:56

This just slipped through is it.

25:58

Yeah, this is it. So

26:00

now let's get into where are

26:03

they now and the aftermath. So

26:05

obviously Pew died and he didn't leave

26:07

any notes or anything, no manifesto about

26:09

why he did what he did. GMAC

26:11

never returned to the office park where

26:13

the shootings occurred. And a

26:15

week after the massacre, workers

26:17

pried the Blackwooden letters off the

26:20

building and moved to another

26:22

Jacksonville office park. This incident remained

26:24

the deadliest single mass shooting

26:26

committed by a lone gunman in

26:28

Florida history until June 12,

26:30

2016, and the pulse

26:33

shooting, when 29 -year -old Omar

26:35

Mateen opened fire at a

26:37

popular LGBTQ plus nightclub in

26:39

Orlando, Florida, killing 49 people

26:41

and injuring 53 others before

26:44

being killed by law enforcement. Stay

26:46

tuned for that story. We'll get

26:48

there eventually. Yeah. Unfortunately,

26:52

this is

26:54

not uncommon. So

26:56

in 2019, Florida State

26:58

College at Jacksonville presented the play,

27:00

The Repossession of James Edward

27:02

Pugh, Mass Shooting in Bay Meadows,

27:04

based on the book by

27:06

Tim Gilmore, a professor at the

27:08

school. And one of

27:10

the victim's surviving children was very

27:12

upset about that play. Oh,

27:15

really? Oh, wow. Oh, yeah. Did

27:17

they say why? Yeah, she just

27:19

didn't believe that it was... Well,

27:21

the creator of the play didn't

27:24

consult with her or any of

27:26

the survivors or surviving family members

27:28

and the daughter was upset that

27:30

it was bringing this all back

27:32

up and that wasn't fair to

27:34

her. All concerns which are valid

27:36

and I hear her. Right. I

27:38

was just curious why. If the

27:41

play was like really disrespectful or

27:43

I didn't know. Well, the daughter

27:45

thought that it was. Okay. And

27:47

the interviews of people and the

27:49

daughter took place before anybody had

27:51

seen the play. So I don't

27:53

know. Yeah, I didn't see the

27:55

play or anything. I think it

27:57

was put on at Florida State

28:00

College. So obviously I wouldn't have

28:02

seen it. I did

28:04

get some information from Tim Gilmore.

28:06

Oh, you did? Yeah, the part

28:08

about the teenagers who were shot.

28:10

That was all information that he

28:12

found out. A lot of the

28:14

articles put the incidents the other

28:16

way, like Lewis and Doretta. Oh,

28:18

in a different order. Yeah, they

28:20

said they were shot first and

28:22

then Chris and Lynette. But it

28:24

actually was the other way around,

28:26

at least according to Chris and

28:28

Lynette, they got shot at like

28:30

11 o 'clock and Doretta and Lewis

28:32

got shot later on in the

28:34

evening. I see. Wait, do

28:37

you know Tim Gilmore? No, he wrote

28:39

the book. that that play was based

28:41

on. Oh, okay. I thought you like

28:43

called him or something. Oh, yeah. I

28:45

gave a call. He's my bud. No. Well,

28:48

I mean, you are the OG of

28:50

true crime. It wouldn't surprise me. I

28:53

just had to confirm. But

28:56

yeah, interviewed. He interviewed Chris

28:58

and Lynette. I see. Wow, okay.

29:01

Well, let's move on to

29:03

what our, yeah, our takes on

29:05

the case and what we

29:07

think made Pew snap. So what

29:09

are your thoughts on this

29:11

case, Beth? Well, first, I want

29:13

to say that it's bizarre.

29:16

to read articles from 1990 about

29:18

a renewed debate about gun

29:20

control and mass shootings. I

29:22

thought that was really bizarre

29:24

as well. That's a perfect word

29:26

for it. And here we

29:28

are 35 years later, having the

29:30

exact same conversations and debates

29:32

and nothing's getting better. In fact,

29:35

everything's getting worse. That's the

29:37

only difference. The conversations,

29:39

the language is exactly the

29:42

same. Yeah. Hey,

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Case wherever you listen to podcasts. And

31:44

a lot of the articles talked

31:46

about how the repossession of Pew's car

31:48

took place in January and they

31:50

weren't sure of the connection between that

31:52

and the shootings. And

31:54

I think it's obviously,

31:56

obviously connected. He lost

31:58

his mom, his wife left him, then

32:00

his car was repossessed and he was

32:02

sent that huge bill for it. And

32:04

I think that was probably the last

32:06

straw. And I mean, he chose GMAC

32:08

as the place to commit his mass

32:11

shooting. So of course it was connected. Now,

32:13

why he shot Lewis Bacon, Doretta Drake,

32:15

Chris Shorter, and Lynette Johnson, I don't think

32:17

we'll ever know. But I think it

32:19

was the beginning of the end. I think

32:21

after he decided to commit those crimes

32:24

and went through with it, he was too

32:26

far gone to come back. He was

32:28

ready to go out. and take some other

32:30

people with him as he had threatened

32:32

to do. Right, he said he

32:34

was gonna do it. Yep, he said he

32:36

was and he did it. And he did.

32:38

And why did he get to this point?

32:40

I don't think he ever learned how to

32:42

deal with his emotions. He snapped

32:44

in 1971 when he

32:46

killed his friend, David Pender.

32:49

He was like so remorseful about it, like

32:51

he didn't mean to do it, you

32:53

know? Yeah, but he did it. was one

32:55

of those people who got so angry

32:57

that... out. just lost his mind. didn't see

32:59

those words, but that's what I imagine. And

33:02

he snapped when he was angry

33:04

with his wife. He snapped when

33:06

his life was falling apart. And

33:08

this is a problem for some

33:11

men. Yep. You know, they're often

33:13

told as young boys to just

33:15

suck it up. Man up. Yeah,

33:17

man up or called pussies or

33:19

whatever. But they're not given any tools

33:22

for dealing with strong emotions. So,

33:24

you know, they just they do they

33:26

suck it up until they can't

33:28

suck it up anymore and then they

33:30

beat somebody up or yeah shoot

33:32

somebody so I agree yeah this yeah

33:34

I think that this is this

33:36

is a male problem you know uh

33:39

I've been trying to think about

33:41

the because the world is fundamentally way

33:43

way different than it was five

33:45

10 15 20 years ago and just

33:47

thinking about like imagine a world

33:49

without dangerous world or imagine a world

33:51

without racism imagine a world without

33:53

sex like can you imagine how dope

33:55

all that shit would be um

33:58

but we're not there yet i all

34:00

that to say i think this

34:02

is a problem with men and and

34:04

i don't know if anybody but

34:06

men can fix this problem the same

34:08

way i think that um well

34:10

it's a societal problem i mean we're

34:12

all involved in it you know

34:14

the way we raise our children you

34:17

know the way we treat our

34:19

boys. Yes, yes. But don't you think

34:21

the onus, a lot of the

34:23

onus is Once get to be an

34:25

adult, once they get to be

34:27

an adult, yeah, then it's their problem.

34:29

They need to fix it. just

34:31

saying that the role of men in

34:34

society to, you know, do away

34:36

with toxic masculinity and teaching younger men

34:38

and boys and being an example

34:40

of how, like how you live this

34:42

life where you have the tools

34:44

and skills to deal with strong emotions.

34:46

I think they call it at

34:48

my kids' school. It's plastered every social

34:50

and emotional learning. Yeah. I mean,

34:53

it is the onus is on men,

34:55

but it is something we should

34:57

all work on. Yeah. Thank you. You've

34:59

heard it here, folks. Yeah,

35:03

the gun debate, same shit, different day.

35:06

The only difference is that it's

35:08

worse. In my research about Jacksonville,

35:10

I learned that had an intense racial

35:12

violence and discrimination history from the

35:14

1880s to this day. There was just

35:16

too many cases to name, but

35:18

just a couple, if you're curious, because

35:21

I found them fascinating stories that

35:23

acts handle Saturday nighters. And

35:25

in 2023, there

35:27

was a mass shooter who

35:29

targeted black residents at a store

35:32

and killed three black people.

35:34

Oh, wow. Yeah. So anyway, Jacksonville

35:36

is no stranger. It's like

35:38

any other American city to history

35:40

of racial issues and violence.

35:42

And I think now in 2025,

35:45

I mean, are there any places that have

35:47

not had a mass shooting? You know

35:49

what I mean? Like, is there any town

35:51

around here that hasn't been touched by

35:53

gun violence? My first thoughts

35:56

were sort of in another way,

35:58

saying what Beth just said.

36:00

Like, he lost things. He lost

36:02

his dad through abandonment. He

36:04

lost his friend due to anger

36:06

issues. He lost his mom. He

36:09

lost his car. He lost his

36:11

wife. starting to sound like a country

36:13

music song. But

36:16

yeah, I don't think that he ever

36:18

learned to deal with those things. I

36:20

mean, the fight with his

36:22

friend where he killed his friend,

36:24

I guess his friend just called

36:26

his girlfriend a bitch, something that

36:28

could have been worked out through

36:30

a little conversation. Definitely. Or just

36:32

walk away, you know. Yeah, he

36:35

just didn't have the aptitude to

36:37

be able to deal with conflict,

36:39

stress or even setbacks and death.

36:41

To me, I got the impression

36:43

after he blacked out, did something

36:45

really bad and took his friend's

36:48

life. He was remorseful, but it

36:50

could have also maybe seemed to

36:52

him like death is a solution

36:54

to problems. And I won't really

36:56

get in that much trouble for

36:58

it. You know what I mean?

37:01

Right. Yeah. Didn't the last time.

37:03

So. Right. Yeah. So if there's

37:05

no consequence for bad behavior and

37:07

then all these consequences did start

37:09

to happen, right? His wife left

37:11

because of his anger issues. His

37:14

car was repossessed because he had

37:16

financial issues. Then we end up

37:18

with the case that we talked

37:20

about today. I also thought about

37:22

the state of America around this

37:24

time. Reagan was leaving office. Papa

37:27

Bush was in charge. But

37:29

before them... Jimmy Carter was president

37:31

and he was all about mental

37:33

health support and mental health programs

37:35

and policies But as soon as

37:38

Republicans came in they just shut

37:40

all that shit down So I

37:42

wonder what resources would have been

37:44

available to him to someone like

37:46

him black with financial problems if

37:48

he had reached out just given

37:50

You know the way America was

37:53

and I was struck by how

37:55

many people lost their lives in

37:57

that one like short period And

37:59

how many people were injured just

38:01

within a few minutes of the

38:03

people who were like terrified at

38:05

the scene and just like like

38:08

the ripple effects of this guys

38:10

actions are infinite and touched so

38:12

many people over decades for years

38:14

to come forever. Yeah, this is

38:16

gonna be a tragedy that affects

38:18

people's lives. And so I thought

38:20

a lot about that and then

38:23

the community of Jacksonville and you

38:25

know, this was Not an easy

38:27

case to tackle. No, it wasn't.

38:29

It's complex with regard to the

38:31

issues, but we got to talk

38:33

about hard stuff. Yeah. So

38:35

that's what we're here for. That's what we're

38:37

that's what we're here for. We don't want

38:40

to sleep and sweep anything under the rug.

38:42

So we talk about hard stuff so you

38:44

don't have to. We do. You know what?

38:46

I think one more thought I had, you

38:48

know, it's always the quiet ones. And then

38:50

also the things that he went through, unfortunate

38:53

events. But think of all of the

38:55

people who have gone through any combination

38:57

of the things he has gone through,

38:59

right? Yeah. And all this to

39:01

say it's an explanation, not an excuse, right?

39:04

Who hasn't been a paycheck away

39:06

from having their car repossessed or

39:08

getting a big ass bill or

39:10

lost the loss of a loved

39:13

one or a relationship falling apart.

39:15

Going through a divorce. Yeah, exactly.

39:17

But so many of us have

39:19

never turned to murder. Violence. Yeah,

39:21

or violence. Yeah, this is just

39:23

a sad case. Let us know

39:25

what you thought about it. Beth,

39:27

where can the people find us?

39:29

Our website is fruitloopspod.com and we

39:31

use Fruit Loops Pod for all

39:33

of our social media. This is

39:35

a weekly podcast and new episodes

39:37

drop every Thursday. So until next

39:40

time, look alive, y 'all. It's

39:42

crazy out there. you

40:02

one.