0:02

This is a global player original

0:04

podcast.

0:18

Hello, and welcome to Full Disclosure, a

0:20

podcast project designed exclusively to

0:22

let me spend more than I'd ever go on the

0:24

radio with interesting people. Mine

0:27

interesting person.

0:28

We're about to find out

0:29

-- Oh. -- to run out, but I I

0:31

mean, I I mean, dare I suggest that

0:34

it it this stage in

0:36

twenty twenty three, for many people listening

0:38

to this, you are even more interested than

0:40

you were at this stage in. Chad

0:42

to Chad to two. This is what has prompted the times

0:44

to call you country's most vociferous anti

0:47

corruption

0:47

crusader. We'll we'll get onto that should say

0:49

thank you because I know everyone's keen to talk to you

0:52

at the

0:52

moment. So Yes. But I I'm a big fan.

0:55

And and, obviously, very

0:57

conscious that LBC is doing

0:59

so

0:59

well. Congratulations on that because I know

1:01

how hard it is --

1:02

Mhmm. -- to build a station and then

1:04

to surpass something on the BBC, bigger

1:07

ratings than the radio

1:08

five, so we'll talk -- Thank you very much. -- on your

1:10

research, this is fair. As we would expect So

1:15

I also should own up at the beginning

1:17

to being slightly taken aback by

1:19

the by the variety of your life because you

1:21

put your your I've done the telly show young.

1:24

I sort of thought that you'd just

1:26

had a sort of model school girl, head

1:28

of the

1:28

class, straight to Cambridge, turn up on the telly,

1:30

but you Right. No.

1:33

I've lived a bit.

1:34

I've lived. Yes.

1:35

Beginning pretty much with your

1:37

dad doing a runner just weeks after you

1:40

were born. Yes. A couple of weeks after.

1:42

So my father was in

1:44

the Dutch Resistance, the Boardman

1:46

bit. And he married my mom

1:48

who is Welsh and a farmer's

1:50

daughter.

1:51

How do they meet? You know? I don't

1:53

know. I think immediately after the

1:56

war. She was doing

1:58

secretary of work in rail in

2:00

some war office or other, and

2:02

he came over. I don't know anything more

2:05

than that really. So they married. They had two

2:07

children. Then about ten years later,

2:09

they had me. Right. So

2:11

my mom was in her thirties by this time.

2:14

And

2:15

he then told her after I was when I was Christmas

2:17

Eve, baby Christmas Carol. Oh,

2:20

bless me. I was nice

2:22

back then. And he told

2:25

her that he'd been having an affair with his sixteen

2:27

year old girl and so she

2:29

left, took the

2:31

kids back to Wales because they were living in Bedford

2:34

then. And so I was born in Bedford

2:37

is an an oh my goodness

2:39

me. It is an an ending argument people

2:41

on Twitter guys. No. Could you read from Wikipedia?

2:43

You know, Welsh. I'm Welsh.

2:46

You were born in Bedford. I know

2:48

I was born in Bedford, but when I was two weeks

2:50

old, I went back. I don't know my Dutch farmer

2:52

thing. Right. don't have any, like, England

2:54

family. I only have Wales, you know,

2:57

so and obviously, by blood half

2:59

well. So and and that's

3:01

where I grew up. But it was very poor. That's

3:03

one in nineteen

3:04

sixty. Back

3:04

back to Preston and your mom didn't really

3:07

have the proverbial pot to pee and did

3:09

she Yeah. She really didn't. So then were

3:11

the three children. My brother

3:13

was had been born with a the

3:15

severest form of cleft lip and

3:17

palate. So he

3:20

couldn't even say the alphabet till the heart, think

3:22

it was about eight or nine. And so,

3:24

ma'am was left with these three kids because there was no

3:27

sort of child support then And

3:31

she had we lived in this flat,

3:34

this ground floor flat, which was

3:36

by one of her uncles,

3:39

uncles will. And and

3:42

it I you the thing is when you're

3:44

born poor, you don't know anything else. And

3:46

there was no way of seeing anything

3:49

else either. You just knew your

3:51

street, your school, your town.

3:54

And

3:55

but but there a four of us in one bedroom

3:57

and I shared a bed with my mom till I was

3:59

nine and that was normal and we

4:01

never

4:02

had toys and we never

4:04

had gifts or anything like that. And

4:06

you just grew up on Handymydowns from

4:08

this very kind girl who lived in the

4:10

next street in Brinterion Avenue.

4:13

I think her name was Pamela. Mhmm. And

4:16

but we were at number three, Pamira

4:18

Gardens, it was called. And then my

4:20

auntie Meghan and another,

4:23

like, family cousins lived at number

4:25

seven. And then we went to Dolly, and then

4:28

no whole pile of other cousins lived at number

4:30

nine. Okay. So you felt

4:32

you're always just running in and out. Yeah.

4:35

I wasn't aware I

4:37

suppose of being very

4:39

poor until I

4:40

got to sort of age six or

4:42

seven? When

4:43

you'd go to other people's houses outside. Yeah.

4:45

And you'd see yes. You'd see other things.

4:47

And you'd see, you know, a husband wife

4:49

looking after, because I was brought up

4:51

Catholic. Right. So I went to the Catholic school

4:53

in real. Was

4:54

that was there was there any stigma attached

4:56

to Yes. Because we were the younger family who

4:58

were divorced school. In the Catholic

5:00

schools, state school. Right. You know?

5:03

And everyone

5:05

hadn't it. That was

5:06

it. It was like that process altogether.

5:09

Letting her over the netness. And so

5:11

I've just sort of got on the bus every morning

5:13

from the age of I can't remember now four or

5:15

something

5:16

and traveled in with her brother and

5:18

it was just I don't know.

5:20

It was very happy

5:21

could. This that

5:22

comes across when you talk about it. But

5:24

but it was things like You

5:28

know, you know, people go, oh, yeah.

5:30

Yeah. I have three showers at Dan. I think, God,

5:33

we had literally one

5:35

bathtub. She had enough money for the Emotion

5:37

heater for one bathtub of hot water

5:39

a week for the entire

5:40

family. Whether

5:41

you needed it or not?

5:42

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think we're

5:44

talking. And that was a Sunday night.

5:46

And so I was who's

5:49

having first water, you know, was that I had first

5:51

water because I was the baby, the

5:53

little one. And it was usually my

5:55

sister. Then my brother then my mom last

5:57

of all. Yeah. And you had to wash your hair and you had

6:00

you like, four inches of water in

6:01

possible. Bumble.

6:02

By the time she go in

6:04

it. Yeah. Yeah. She must

6:05

have done amazing things just to keep you

6:07

and you use the word happy. It's clear

6:09

you were secure. You you just had no concept

6:12

for think I was secure because, you

6:14

know, it was a small town. As I say, all my

6:16

cousins were just in the same road.

6:19

I knew everybody. And

6:22

my thing was, I used to have this little pad

6:24

of

6:24

pay. Everything was precious. You know, absolutely

6:26

everything was precious.

6:27

Because you didn't have much. Because you didn't have much. So

6:29

everything was precious. And I had this pad

6:31

of paper and a and

6:33

a like a bio pen. I'd go

6:35

and sit on wall at the end of the road,

6:37

on the main road, you know, which

6:39

had about six cars an hour.

6:42

Yeah. And and I'd

6:44

write down their registrations and

6:47

then on, then I'd mark it. You know, if

6:49

it came back, I'd mark it and have different

6:51

like marks against it. Oh, I

6:54

could spend is there? Just sitting on

6:56

and then I thought, like, I told Richard White through

6:58

the

6:58

store, and he said, oh, it's consonants.

7:00

Really? No. Numbers

7:02

all the time, even from nine to three

7:05

destination. And

7:07

then school. So from

7:10

Yeah. I was about to say presumably you were

7:12

a a conscientious

7:13

student. Well Although it doesn't

7:16

start, it doesn't So so

7:18

I was in primary from

7:20

a whatever day H34

7:22

back then. And I

7:25

was really good at sums. And

7:27

I loved my numbers. They were my friends.

7:29

And so our headmaster, who

7:31

was very cheeky mister Gemmet,

7:33

Fred Gemmet, who was the best

7:35

a Ted Master. He was from Salford,

7:38

and he put me up a

7:40

year -- Mhmm. -- and he

7:41

did that occasionally with students. He said,

7:43

I should put you too, but we can't do that. We're

7:45

not allowed to do that. So go up a

7:47

year. So I stayed like a

7:49

year ahead all through school. But

7:52

miss to

7:53

Gem, it was wonderful. So you got to cast

7:55

your mind back to the nineteen sixties. Black

7:57

and white telly

7:58

-- Mhmm. -- you know, all of that. If

8:00

you had a telly, and he was

8:02

a massive man united

8:04

fan. And back then, man

8:06

united was the Catholic team.

8:08

Right. Yes. Chester and a man city was a

8:10

-- Okay. -- protest teams back

8:12

then, not now, obviously. But

8:16

and Catholic schools say and if

8:18

you so supported Lipole

8:20

or Eberton. Generally, they supported

8:23

Eberton, the Catholic king. So

8:25

he would always, you know, in on a Monday

8:27

morning, he was a devil. He was like, last

8:29

week, me farther for I have said,

8:32

bless my family, you know, I had a nice

8:34

and a blessed my family because I had a

8:36

nice and delicious. Blair No. No.

8:38

No. No. And then you'd always say, I'm blessed Manchester

8:45

United for doing so well on today

8:47

and beating, you know, whoever it might be. Three

8:49

nil. And and

8:52

he was just he'd had the devil in him.

8:54

Yeah. But he adored the kids.

8:56

And I remember when I was older

8:58

going back because education is my passion. And

9:02

and talking to him, obviously,

9:05

he'd retire fired by

9:06

then.

9:06

And he was telling me he had been a deputy

9:08

headmaster in a scotland in Southford in

9:11

the nineteen fifties when

9:12

I, like, you're going a another

9:14

level

9:15

Yes. -- a

9:15

lot of things. Yes. And he said

9:17

I wouldn't and the only test, like,

9:20

national tests that there was us back then

9:23

was a reading age or no

9:25

stats or

9:25

anything like that. And he said, and I refused

9:28

to let any child leave my school

9:30

with out the reading age of

9:32

eleven.

9:32

Got it. Because that was the most that you could write.

9:35

And he said even there was a down syndrome

9:37

child, there was it, you know, and and

9:40

I can but he said because every child

9:42

is capable. And from our

9:44

little school, catholic

9:46

kids or poor kids, But then,

9:49

really poor. And, you know,

9:52

he was so proud because so many went

9:54

on. One went on to run universal

9:57

pictures --

9:57

Mhmm. -- one, you know, globally

9:59

-- Right.

9:59

-- Higea. Doctor accountants.

10:04

So punching above.

10:06

Totally punching above where society thought

10:09

we should be. So you don't know I think mister

10:11

Gemmett planted that in

10:12

me.

10:12

I was about to say you don't know what's formative

10:15

while it's happening. Do you Well,

10:16

you don't tea. Of course,

10:17

you don't know. But looking back, you're

10:19

on the right don't you go, oh, I'm having

10:21

a life. But but the transformative nature

10:23

of education, the gifts that

10:26

you give to a child --

10:27

Yes. -- is imvaluable.

10:28

It is invaluable, which is why

10:31

I get deeply passionate about the education

10:33

system.

10:34

How conscious were you of class then

10:36

as a child?

10:37

I don't think in North Wales. So

10:39

have you ever been to real?

10:40

Yes. I have the sun center. It's not there.

10:43

It's not there. Of Oregon.

10:46

I have my girlfriend's lived in Stockholm, so it

10:48

was a it was a treat that crossed over

10:50

to real for for a day. But a

10:52

wave machine. I was brought up in the Midlands, but my

10:54

god parents lived in Stockholm. So

10:57

Raul was a dad. I do know that. So

10:59

Raul, I every spouse has been to real. Yeah.

11:01

Most monks have been to real. True.

11:03

Chester people a bit posh. She goes to real, you

11:05

know, a bit too posh. And real had the

11:07

fun fair air at the end of the

11:10

prom, and it was just arcades and

11:12

all of that. And and

11:15

it still has the two poorest cancer

11:18

wards in Wales. Mhmm. So it's

11:20

a

11:20

big, you know, mixture. The west end of

11:22

real was always like dirt poor. Mhmm. So

11:25

so it wasn't a society,

11:27

like, if you grow up in Surrey or --

11:29

Right. --

11:30

Berkshire or whatever, where there was

11:32

an expectation of class, there was

11:34

the so there was the doctor,

11:37

and it was more about the

11:40

doctor, the headmaster, the

11:42

police men were people to or priests,

11:45

obviously, were people to look up

11:47

to. But it wasn't because they drove around

11:49

in big cars, and it wasn't

11:52

because they'd been privately

11:54

educated. That wasn't a thing.

11:56

Mhmm. It just wasn't a thing. So

11:59

it was it wasn't

12:01

that kind of structure for me. Okay.

12:03

So it was much freer than that, really. I

12:06

was conscious that we didn't have any money, but

12:09

not that we were any

12:12

less than anyone else.

12:13

And not that doors might be close to

12:16

people, you know. So I presume you're That's conscious

12:18

of that. You were. Okay. Conscious of that,

12:20

but not comparatively to people

12:22

in my town. Yeah. Okay. Does

12:24

that make sense So you could because very agricultural.

12:27

You know, so lot of people are farmers. My first

12:29

proper boyfriend is a chicken Vorderman.

12:32

And Rick, the chick, we cook. I

12:37

love trick the trick. I'm so

12:40

so it was more, you know, and

12:43

when it is agriculture -- Mhmm. -- people think

12:45

when you say farmers that they're wealthy

12:47

--

12:47

Mhmm. -- that's not how it was in Northwest

12:50

still isn't how it is health plans. It's

12:52

about a way of earning a living.

12:55

So, yeah, I I mean, I haven't really thought about

12:57

you don't think about it at the time, but

13:01

now I think it's that

13:03

whole when I went to

13:04

Cambridge, which somehow got to,

13:06

that was when I saw the class system.

13:11

Before we get to Cambridge, will we go

13:13

to blessed Edward Jones Catholic high school?

13:15

Oh, blessed Ted. Bless

13:17

it. Bless it. Bless it. So he

13:19

knew the writing was on the wall, like, years later,

13:21

because it's special measures and all of

13:23

that. Was it really? Yeah. When the governor said,

13:25

nobody's allowed to call it blesser tets

13:27

anymore. It's like Really,

13:30

that's all you've got to worry about. That's

13:32

like a stickiest plaster and a gaping

13:34

wound. Left at the This dead person's

13:36

high

13:36

school. He was a person. But

13:38

you you're still a year young. Are you for the

13:40

interest? Still a year young. Did that answer?

13:42

Did that did that sort of register? Or And

13:44

No. Because I was saying kids. Yeah. Sure.

13:46

You know, and I was obviously top of the

13:48

class, James. Mhmm. But I

13:51

do remember that being a row

13:53

at the time because so

13:55

there was a fence in between the primary

13:57

school and better tuts at the moment.

14:00

So as

14:00

Gomayo, it's called which a a college,

14:03

Welsh for school. Myer is

14:05

Mary.

14:06

Right. So it's Mary. So

14:08

you sort of saw this new building, you know,

14:10

it was brought up in the nineteen sixties, very

14:12

trendy flat roof, all all the

14:15

Shebang. Mhmm. And a language

14:17

lab, not that anyone ever used it.

14:20

So I remember mister Ashworth who was

14:22

a headmaster talking

14:24

to mister Jam, and they called me in. I'm my mom

14:26

because the local

14:28

education authority had

14:30

said, you can't put this child

14:34

through to secondary school. She isn't

14:36

old enough. That was the

14:38

rules. So that was like my first one. Well, that's

14:40

rubbish. Isn't it? Well, I'm

14:43

top of the

14:43

And I got to do. I got

14:45

to do. So they divided

14:48

up between them and somehow

14:50

hour rather got through the red tape

14:52

because the Catholic church gave

14:54

money as well -- Right. -- school to

14:55

see. So it wasn't holy

14:58

an ALEA decision.

15:00

Got it. So anyway, they put me up.

15:03

And I'll look

15:05

I just love miss that's where I mess

15:08

mister Perry. So, miss Perry is my maths

15:10

teacher, best maths teacher ever

15:12

ever in the

15:13

world. That's

15:14

very easy to believe, given what

15:16

drugs were. We got all these kids

15:18

through their own level maths, you

15:21

know, at the right day jobs at fifteen when I

15:23

did

15:23

mine, but they were all actually,

15:25

they could have all done it at fifteen. Yeah.

15:27

And they all got a gray day --

15:29

Gosh. -- in

15:30

no level. What's

15:31

the secret What was it that makes it so clear? It

15:33

was. He was very clear

15:36

and he understood

15:39

math properly. And he

15:41

was very strict because because then there

15:43

were no computers or anything like that.

15:45

So we would practice

15:47

and practice and practice and he would let

15:49

any child go to

15:52

have that maths anxiety. Oh, god. I'll just

15:54

say I've got the right answer and I don't know what to do.

15:56

He was brilliant to explain

15:58

mining. And also for controlling us

16:00

throwing the black foot, you

16:02

know, the black foot

16:03

driven thing. This water

16:05

man and it and it gets ruble

16:08

and needs to slam it next to my next

16:10

to my

16:10

hand. Nevermind. Of course.

16:12

And

16:12

I do it. And then you'd start laughing.

16:14

After doing

16:15

Yeah. It's just It

16:16

couldn't keep up the picture. And when

16:17

he left his shoulders, which was

16:20

dam. Like, when we start talking, no.

16:22

Monthly. Because

16:27

And I absolutely adored him. What

16:29

do you one of the things that that pops

16:31

up a lot in these interviews. The the

16:33

released it has been doing so recently is

16:37

so I have some people carry their child

16:39

very close to the surface. So Brian

16:41

Cox, the actor himself?

16:43

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

16:44

But I mean, he there were moments during the interview

16:46

where he still looked eight. He'd had a couple of traumas

16:48

in his childhood as well. He lost his dad young.

16:51

Terry Christian was here a couple of weeks ago,

16:53

and he is still eleven, I think.

16:56

Always will

16:56

be. Where do you shit on that, so because I can't

16:58

Oh, I love being in my sixties. So you

17:00

guess what I mean? I I

17:02

Yes. James O'Brien. Yes. Well, so always

17:05

meant to get to this There we go. thought

17:07

you were gonna

17:10

say something like that. It's it's it's it's a

17:12

kind of your not

17:14

stuck or or

17:15

No. God. No. I'm I'm going forward.

17:17

Clearly. No. Why is that? Because

17:20

you had a happy childhood. I had a happy childhood.

17:22

You would well, always of the road

17:24

ahead? Or Well, I think what it is is

17:26

because mom married my stepfather who

17:28

I absolutely bloody worshiped. Yes.

17:30

He was an Italian prisoner of war.

17:33

She liked foreigners. Right? So

17:35

so an Italian prisoner of war

17:38

and he'd come over, obviously, during

17:40

the war -- Mhmm. -- and married a welsh farmer's

17:42

daughter. So his second language was

17:44

welsh. Right. Then very

17:47

sadly, that she died. They

17:49

had two children. My step wasn't my stepdad's

17:51

step. Right. So and then years

17:54

after he was widowed, he

17:56

met my mom, and they got married.

17:58

So he lived in this other town called Denby.

18:00

So now so my first ten years,

18:03

well, like, prostatic -- Yeah. -- in my second

18:05

ten years in Dembey, and he

18:07

swore every third word. Now I

18:09

love a swear. Right? I I'm gonna

18:11

have to behave myself now. All my

18:13

mates know what I'm

18:14

like.

18:14

Don't go viral. We'll have we'll have people using

18:16

it in ringtones.

18:17

We're now rewarded with everything and everything else. And

18:20

behave. Definitely. I

18:22

love a sweater. Yes. I absolutely

18:24

love it. It's just like that

18:26

color for.

18:27

Yes. We don't even And I shouldn't offended

18:29

by it --

18:30

Right. -- because my stepfather swore

18:32

my dad, I cooked up my dad, like,

18:34

all the time, and he was

18:37

and and he'd laugh, you see? We go,

18:39

Catee. Ben in

18:42

mind, this Italian Catee is a builder.

18:44

Catee, your bitch coming up for

18:46

funny. A bitch. Come here. Come here.

18:49

I mean,

18:49

laugh. And I'd laugh. I draw.

18:52

I think I'd be like ten. And he'd

18:54

smack me on the leg with

18:55

it. He's like, yeah.

18:56

A bloody picture.

18:58

And he had this hard hands still covered

19:00

in concrete, and then we kill ourselves laughing

19:02

-- Yeah. -- because it was that

19:04

was our humor. And he oh,

19:07

and we drive uptown in a pickup

19:09

and he'd have his arm

19:10

out, you know, oh, ways with the

19:12

bloody window down. It's our mouth and

19:14

he called everyone. Doctor Quinn, you're

19:18

Oh, yeah.

19:21

I never had to call you a coprio. A

19:23

coprio. Wow.

19:24

So it was too but

19:27

normal. And then the bigger

19:29

the biggest thing for me was because I love

19:31

to my dad. Yes. And we went from

19:34

the four. Yes. To have quite a

19:36

comfortable life, but my mom

19:38

kept leaving him. Right. So then

19:41

I'd go from Harvey Meyer bedroom. Thank

19:43

you very much. Get me --

19:45

Yeah. -- to west

19:47

end of rail --

19:48

Oh, god. -- and

19:48

living in a flat there. First time she left

19:51

him, we ran off to the a circus.

19:52

He did. Don't you? He did.

19:55

Crazy. My mother and I ran off to Billy Smart

19:57

Circle. To see what? Exactly.

19:59

Well, I wish she

20:00

must've had a plan.

20:01

She was she was working basically.

20:03

She couldn't think of anywhere

20:05

else to go. Gosh. I was

20:07

nine. Was it

20:08

a happy marriage? I mean, was she just running off

20:10

average? I don't know. I don't

20:12

know whether he had a fair Oh, sorry. She

20:14

got willy as Italian, you know. So

20:16

I can't complain. That's not my problem. And

20:19

but that I found the

20:22

most upsetting part of my life, not the

20:24

poor bit. It's the disruption. Having

20:27

and somewhere I loved and with

20:29

someone I adored my dad. Yes.

20:31

And then nothing and

20:33

nothing in you know, I

20:36

was nine when she ran off the first time.

20:39

Right. And and we

20:41

ended up in Lester with BillySmart circus.

20:44

And it was opposite it was I I this is all

20:46

I can remember. It was opposite the prison.

20:48

So it's one of those old, big, old Victorian prison

20:51

walls. And we were in these

20:54

dicks as they used to have. Yeah. And

20:57

we were in a bedroom with a smashed window

20:59

and it was really cold. I remember

21:02

that. And then the circus

21:04

was in my head down

21:06

in a park at the bottom of the hill. And

21:08

then we went to Windsor,

21:11

and she put me in a school

21:12

there, and lasted a day.

21:15

So I said, I'm not going back.

21:16

Proper disruption, though.

21:18

Yeah. Oh, proper. Yeah. And then

21:20

that happened about she says

21:22

four times more than Was it was it like

21:25

a fiddlers elbow?

21:27

Does that mean you can't relax,

21:29

not

21:29

now, but then because you would you didn't

21:32

be in your room. You'd be back in your room with

21:34

your things

21:34

Yeah. It made

21:35

you a new uzi. Because they could all be taken

21:37

away again tomorrow.

21:38

Could all be taken away again. And

21:40

I think you can go one of two ways with

21:42

that.

21:43

You can either get very anxious or

21:46

you go, well, that's how it is. Mhmm. And

21:48

I'm gonna look after myself. I think that's

21:50

where my independence came

21:53

from because I'm fiercely independent.

21:55

Clearly. Yeah. But it is partly a survival

21:57

mechanism. think it is. Yeah? Yeah. But I

21:59

don't think it's protection. I think it's

22:01

protection. Yeah. Possible. And I think but

22:03

not sad about

22:04

it. Clearly, at all. Really? I think

22:07

you However.

22:08

I mean, I mean, did you must have felt pretty sad

22:10

in the room in Lester without a bloody window.

22:12

Well,

22:12

I take, but I was only not nine husband. And

22:16

and I was going down to sell

22:18

candy floss with lionel in the big top in

22:20

the big top

22:20

At least I asked whether they put you to work or

22:22

Yeah. They did. Yeah. And he was very

22:24

handsome. So I was quite alright

22:26

then. So

22:28

so presumably, this didn't impact

22:30

much on your schooling because you were

22:32

sort of a model. When she put me into the school

22:34

in Windsor

22:35

-- Yeah.

22:35

-- they put me down a year, you see, with the

22:37

people my actual age,

22:39

James, routes. And I sat

22:41

there and I thought, well, this is stupid, isn't

22:43

it? I didn't I never vocalized it.

22:46

But I thought I

22:48

don't really see why I'm here. And

22:53

I was doing this two years ago

22:55

because even in my school a year

22:57

ahead. I was still ahead

22:58

ahead, so that makes sense. So

23:01

this is baby stuff. So then I went back to

23:03

men in the dicks. That that that

23:05

I'm not going. And she I used to have I

23:08

never argued. I just had to wilt.

23:10

Right. So you know when people got

23:12

slump. Yeah. Like a slump. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

23:14

Yeah.

23:15

And you are literally gonna have to -- Got it.

23:17

-- reboot it. It's what extinction rebellion

23:19

do this in the middle of the recession.

23:22

Can't say them at work. At worst. That

23:24

was actually said, oh, please don't wield

23:26

somebody.

23:29

That's it. But you'd had a proper will. So

23:31

we went back to Dembey. Gosh.

23:34

And and and was there any

23:37

because you're not a show up for you despite having

23:39

been on telly for all of your adult

23:41

life. Well,

23:41

I don't think I am. No. You're not get accused

23:43

of it, but obviously, by the day, you

23:45

know, you did. But

23:47

you weren't pushing yourself to the front of No.

23:49

Out at school to be in the play or anything like that

23:51

or were you?

23:52

No. No. So

23:54

if I don't I know what I I know what I like.

23:56

Right. And I like I the

23:59

things that I really enjoy, I

24:02

like to do well, but I genuinely

24:04

don't give what anyone else

24:06

thinks. Okay. Whether I'm which

24:09

I think is more ego, isn't it if you want

24:11

to

24:12

show off to somebody.

24:14

Yes. Yes. It is. Of course,

24:15

if your desperate are approval approval.

24:18

No. I don't. No. I don't. I don't. Never

24:19

had that. You you'd be quite a harsh judge of

24:22

your own achievements. You'd Yes. Yes.

24:24

But not not It was not overly harsh. think

24:26

that's a bit

24:27

silly. You know, if you could stop for a so

24:29

But you you'd want the approval of of

24:31

mister Gemmet at primary school. I want the

24:33

approval of mister Perry. Mister

24:35

Perry, yes. Yes.

24:36

Always

24:37

wanted to make mister

24:38

he respected him so much. I guess I did.

24:40

Yeah. I think that's it. And I think that's

24:42

stayed all my life. And it's it's

24:44

almost like a superpower really

24:46

because, obviously, I get sucked all the

24:47

time. I'm a woman on

24:51

screen -- Voice. -- so therefore,

24:54

Doesn't matter who you are. So I

24:57

don't care I honestly don't

24:59

give a chuff -- Yeah. -- about anyone's

25:02

opinions other than people,

25:05

I

25:05

respect. That's

25:06

right. That makes so much sense, doesn't it?

25:07

Yeah. And that's As far as I thought we said in the stock

25:09

it out. For the truth. Yeah. No. It clearly is

25:11

the truth. Yeah. So if I'd met you then, as you just

25:14

as you're doing your own

25:14

levels, seventeen.

25:16

Seventy six. Of

25:17

course, I would have

25:17

liked. I'm sure we'd have a

25:19

lot. I'm sure I

25:20

might have been competing with Rick the Chicken.

25:22

Rick the Chicken. Rick. What

25:25

and I've said, what do you want to be when you grow up, Carl?

25:27

What would you say? A fighter pilot. Really? An astronaut.

25:30

Yeah. Correctly. Oh, actually. That means

25:32

I've actually

25:33

Well, I did actually say once I'm

25:35

going to be the first female prime minister sister.

25:38

Okay.

25:38

And then that lasted about a day. I

25:41

thought, actually, no, I don't want to be that at

25:43

all. I want to be. What gets my

25:45

blood like, you know,

25:47

running high and it was

25:49

seen aircraft and like screaming

25:52

a lot. Yeah. I still like screaming.

25:55

And, you know, you

25:57

have to

25:57

imagine. So in nineteen sixty nine, obviously Apollo

25:59

eleven.

26:00

Yeah. And and I was

26:02

eight. And so my generation

26:06

were just for

26:08

those that affected, which was quite a lot.

26:11

You know, it just did something to the your blood

26:13

cells really. It was just kind of oh,

26:16

god. Yeah. I've gotta do that. I've do that. I've gotta

26:18

do that. Never occurred to

26:20

me that I couldn't be one because I didn't

26:22

have a Willie. Right.

26:24

I didn't know how how is it that you

26:26

have to have a willy? No one knows. To

26:28

fly a plane? So

26:29

what do people do? Just pat you on their head and say, well,

26:31

that's a

26:31

nice one. Came bridge. And

26:34

Still thinking that this was a Of course.

26:37

Viable ambition. Yes. Because

26:38

you can't Google anything. No.

26:40

Of course not.

26:40

You you

26:41

wouldn't bump into people routinely. You

26:43

know?

26:43

Actually, being in an aircraft. So So

26:46

don't let that hold you back. Take

26:48

that about it. I've seen it on the tell.

26:50

And and I genuinely that is

26:52

what I wanted to be. Right. So I was convinced

26:55

by it, and then The

26:57

only reference material you had was what was

26:59

in the

27:00

library, either the school library or the local

27:02

library. So there wasn't

27:04

a lot.

27:04

Amazing to be honest. There it is. From

27:06

the that there was some that there is

27:09

something nice about that. Yeah. Because

27:11

I do think now, you

27:13

know, you can have so much information that you

27:15

think I can never achieve I can never

27:17

be that person. I can never achieve

27:19

that thing. There's no thrill of finding things

27:21

either. Oh, it was completely ignorant. Yeah.

27:24

I I couldn't couldn't do.

27:26

I'm blissfully happy. Right. So

27:29

I did my own levels early. I did

27:31

well. Mhmm. I should might

27:34

But I don't see any

27:37

reason to be modest

27:38

about that. As far as As Dan It's in black

27:40

and white. Yeah. And then kids

27:42

didn't go to universe see girls didn't go to

27:44

university then. And

27:47

I can remember them saying, well, do want to sit? Well, I want

27:49

to be I want to be now I want to be a

27:52

a fighter pilot. And if be a fighter

27:54

pilot. I'm gonna be an airline pilot. Right.

27:56

Alright. Are you yeah. Yes. And

27:59

my mum was going, why don't you just settle

28:01

down and marry Rick the chick? Literally

28:04

on my eighteenth birth. Really? That

28:06

chance. So she was like,

28:08

nothing to do

28:09

with. Write the check.

28:09

No. I understand. This was just just had

28:12

plans. So but the whole concept

28:14

to my mother's generation

28:16

so, yeah, I was born in nineteen

28:19

sixty only fifteen years after the end

28:21

of the war.

28:21

Incredible. Yeah.

28:22

When you think about it, all the adults are

28:25

suffering. Of course, though. With that. Yeah.

28:27

So you brought up in that kind of

28:29

bubble

28:29

really. So it was all about women's

28:32

get married and marry

28:34

as well as you can as a phrase used

28:36

to be in other words someone who earned money

28:38

and could look after you. I thought, oh,

28:40

no. I'll look after my self. And I think

28:42

that comes from mum and leave him a stepdad all

28:44

the

28:44

time. Right. So I thought, why am I

28:47

gonna end up like my mother with not a penny

28:49

to a name?

28:49

When I've got my daughter and not gonna happen.

28:51

Of course. So I said to mister

28:53

Russia, the headmaster, and he said, so

28:55

are you going to I think you should apply to university.

28:58

I said, yes, I am. He said, what you're going to do? I

29:00

said, well, I'm good at math, I'm very good at physics.

29:02

So I'm going to do engineering.

29:05

What's that? I said, I have no idea, but I'm gonna

29:07

do engineering because it's probably

29:09

the most act -- Yes.

29:11

-- degree to become this

29:13

fighter pilot. And where are you going to plan?

29:15

I'm going to apply to the best places because

29:18

there's a little booklet in the library that says,

29:20

where it's best. So I applied to City

29:22

University in Southampton for aeronautical.

29:25

Imperial. Yeah. Obviously,

29:28

got offers. And k and I said, now

29:30

I'm applying to Cambridge. I've made sort of

29:32

all

29:32

chuckle.

29:32

We've very They said, some was a preschool

29:35

mealsketcheery. Yes. So I

29:37

said, oh, okay,

29:40

between yes. But nobody

29:42

for, I think, from North Wales

29:45

other than the private

29:46

schools. Yes. Had ever gone to

29:48

Oxford. Let alone boy or girl, you

29:50

know, was that aunt

29:53

I'm gonna go. Is this meant to be

29:56

something that I'm meant to say,

29:58

well, therefore, I can't. I was

30:00

like, well, I'm I am going to apply. They

30:03

went, well, which college I said?

30:06

Write off for a booklet, you know.

30:08

So this booklet came which

30:09

So you I'm gonna interrupt you here because

30:11

you thought as it turns out

30:14

correctly.

30:14

Yeah. But

30:15

you could solve any

30:17

puzzle. Well,

30:18

like, you can apply. Well, of

30:20

course, but also you can find out where you should be

30:22

applying and you can have a go and you can do

30:24

that. I can send it

30:25

off. The thing you have to do is begin.

30:27

Yes. Whatever it is that you're doing, you have

30:29

to begin it. Yeah. Because if you don't

30:31

begin it and you spend all your life

30:34

planning for it. Yeah. It never starts.

30:37

So I am a bit of a leper. Mhmm.

30:39

I will leek and a

30:41

lot. So

30:41

you got so you got your booklet. So got my

30:43

booklet, which was a student guide to Cambridge,

30:45

and it said there was this college called Sydney

30:47

Sussex

30:48

College, and that, you

30:50

know, if you were a state school, there weren't

30:52

many state school kids that I

30:53

think was

30:54

five percent or something like that. Then this

30:56

was probably the best chance.

30:58

Okay. And in the nineteen seventy.

31:00

So we're now talking about I went

31:03

in seventy

31:03

eight. Yeah. You're

31:04

talking about seventy six, seventy seven. We're just

31:06

thinking about it. And only three

31:09

colleges, I think, had gone mixed as

31:11

they call it. Right. So there were three

31:13

girls, colleges.

31:15

Yeah. Let let's say, twenty something.

31:18

Boys. Boys colleges. Hugely

31:21

public school -- Mhmm. -- you know, very autonomy

31:23

and all that sort of thing. Yeah. And then

31:26

three of them, I think kings had gone, I think

31:28

queens had gone, Sydney Sussex had gone,

31:31

mixed, but still very experiment

31:33

at all. So that won't go in there. I'm

31:35

not gonna play into a girl's thing. can't

31:38

I can't live with a bunch of girls

31:40

for the hell. I've are building

31:42

sites all the time. You know, that with my dad,

31:44

it's like It's like It wasn't very small.

31:46

Sure. So I applied to Sydney Sussex.

31:49

And I had my little interview with mister Green,

31:51

who was like my mister Perry. Yes.

31:54

I told mister Green, and

31:56

Keith Glover who became the professor. They

31:58

were pre became preeminent in

32:01

engineering, and they actively

32:04

were looking for kits from the northwest

32:06

So people she now, you know,

32:08

oh, she's from Wales. They think Cardiff --

32:10

Yes. -- you understand -- This is cool.

32:13

-- that -- Yeah. -- you know, real

32:15

to specifics. You're like

32:16

half Welsh and half Northern?

32:17

Yes. Exactly. So they took

32:19

on that year. So when

32:21

to came to the first person I'd ever

32:24

met who said glass. Glass.

32:27

Glass.

32:27

I still have trouble with

32:28

it. Man.

32:29

And I thought, oh, gosh. She's

32:31

the interviews, so miss Graham was there. Because

32:33

these can be hugely Well, they are

32:35

very and he said, actually, after

32:38

it was very determining -- Yes. -- that

32:40

they would take me on because I couldn't

32:42

do the Oxford exam. To get into Oxford

32:44

Academy, she had to take the the specific

32:46

exam -- Yeah. -- and there were teachers in

32:48

private schools another

32:49

wave. It

32:50

was a seventh term. I think you stayed on the

32:52

seventh term. That's right. And

32:54

the teachers who were trained in trade meaning

32:56

the child to You're interested

32:57

to make everything that's good. don't mind. Anyway,

32:59

we didn't have that obviously. Yeah. Impletes.

33:02

And Can't call it that.

33:05

Great. So went to the interview

33:07

anyway. And they were saying what did

33:09

you want to do? And I said, oh, I'm I'm

33:11

going be a fighter pilot.

33:14

Oh, why now? Did you know this this this

33:17

isn't it? And then this said to me. So when

33:19

let's talk about aircraft because

33:21

I'd never

33:22

been in one night. I knew nothing about

33:24

aircraft. That's not gonna stop me.

33:26

So they said, what how do you

33:30

tell the the air speed,

33:32

the speed at which an aircraft is traveling

33:34

through the air air, not ground speed

33:36

through the air. When you're in the air,

33:39

I thought, Say

33:43

that though. Well,

33:49

is to do pressure. Okay.

33:52

So I'm now got my physics head on.

33:54

And I went, yes. Yes.

33:57

Do you know what it's Do you know what the in judgment

33:59

is called that measures air speed, not

34:01

a clue. Okay. Well, let's

34:03

discuss it then, which is exactly what

34:05

they

34:06

want. They want to see how your brain work.

34:07

Yes. To get you thinking. So so I said,

34:10

well, there is a difference obviously between dynamic

34:12

pressure and static pressure. So there

34:14

will be some instrument which

34:17

will be able to detect the difference. And

34:19

from there, it's half m p squared, and you'll be

34:21

able to, you know, and then a calculation would be

34:23

done. Very good. Very good. Oh, and

34:25

that was alright. So then they said

34:27

at the end, well, can you do the Oxbridge

34:29

exam? I said that absolutely not

34:32

-- Yeah. -- thinking, oh, god.

34:34

Now we're

34:34

gonna tell That's a deal breaker. And they said the

34:36

university allows the across

34:39

the whole university. I think it was twenty offers

34:43

to be made, conditional offers. Because if

34:45

you did the bridge exam. They

34:47

then gave you, like, three years. You have to get

34:49

three years because you passed the hard bit,

34:51

whereas this was more traditional, conditional

34:54

offer. So we, you know, if we

34:56

consider you to be right for

34:58

us, then that is what we would do.

35:00

They wanted to assure me that I

35:02

wasn't not gonna get off it. Mhmm. So anyway,

35:05

so then I got I remember we were living in

35:07

in the West End of Real at the time, getting

35:09

at the flat -- Yeah. -- next to the girl for

35:12

naughty boys and girls, and also next

35:14

door to a man who claimed that he wrote chippie,

35:16

chippie, cheap.

35:19

Such is real. You

35:21

didn't. Don't keep it. Don't keep it. Don't

35:24

keep it. You'll be complaining. You'll be

35:26

right again. Same burning

35:28

any other times. Yeah. Okay.

35:32

So show you back. They're waiting for the letter to drop

35:34

through the letter box. Then this letter came.

35:36

And I can remember it was like duplicated.

35:39

Mhmm. And then they typed in my

35:42

offer, you know, of what I had to get to. I

35:44

think it was too days and it'd be in a special

35:47

paper so worth

35:47

it. I don't know if my feet touched the ground

35:50

for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks and so

35:52

Mark. Oh my god.

35:56

Look at this. I'm

35:58

going to Cambridge

35:59

and and then I did my Mokay level

36:02

maths and I got like, thirty percent because I've

36:04

been going to nightclubs in Manchester to

36:06

lunch by

36:07

discovered the the Oxford Road. Yeah.

36:10

What did your mom make of it before we get to the

36:12

So mum was very proud

36:14

of me because that was that whole mindset Yeah.

36:17

-- of the people you look up to

36:19

are the doctor. So she thought

36:21

you were. It wasn't about, you know,

36:24

the Fairground lads who were earning

36:26

fortunes and driving around in Mercedes. It

36:28

wasn't them. That impressed people

36:30

then. Right. It was like who were the, you

36:33

know, the pillars of society. And

36:35

they were nice people. Of course. It

36:37

wasn't a knobbery

36:39

thing.

36:39

No. It was a security for

36:40

-- Yeah. -- professionals. And and a sort of admiration,

36:43

really, for them. But had she reconciled herself

36:45

to your independence and into the idea that you weren't

36:47

gonna settle her. You're off to Cambridge University

36:50

leaving

36:50

home.

36:50

Yeah. But she still wanted me tomorrow at the church.

36:52

She's really just just I was seventeen when

36:54

I went to up. And

36:56

You're young, isn't it? Although you were not a young

36:58

seventeen No. I wasn't a young citizen. The

37:00

delights of Manchester, that sort of teaches

37:03

you. It's very street

37:05

wise. And it went up, and a

37:07

lot of them had heard of that pure.

37:09

Yes. And and

37:12

so we're ninety be.

37:13

Yeah. Of course.

37:14

But I thought

37:15

they were like kids. Yeah.

37:16

Well, they were. One day. Well, they were. Yeah.

37:18

And then all the girls school were

37:20

hopping into bed with the boys. I was

37:22

thinking, what

37:22

is this? Going on. I've never seen boys

37:24

before, really. I haven't looked at what I mean. I

37:27

can't blame them really. But, I mean, it was

37:29

it was an eye opener to me. It was

37:32

the first time that I knew that

37:35

nobody

37:37

is better than anybody else. So

37:39

it could have gone other say that. Because so

37:41

far, I haven't identified a single moment

37:43

of intimidation in your whole life. No.

37:46

You could have got to Cambridge and felt intimidated

37:49

by the elite nature of all these people

37:51

who spoke a language that you didn't

37:53

or or inhabited a world you'd never

37:55

inhabited? And they didn't have it a world that I'd

37:57

never inhabited. But I just

37:59

thought the do

38:01

you think you

38:01

are?

38:02

Did you? Yes. I did because

38:06

not my college because my college

38:08

was quite different to others.

38:10

So there are a lot of you know,

38:12

the state school. Right? So I went up about seventeen

38:15

real preschool meals kit.

38:18

Sue Thomas, who's from that burn, state

38:20

school. So she went

38:23

on to but she was seventeen. We shared

38:25

a room together, and she went

38:27

on to become the youngest

38:29

female chemistry professor in the UK

38:31

when she became a professor. And

38:34

she as when international science awards

38:36

love

38:36

soon. And Anne Mather,

38:38

who's from Stockport.

38:40

Right. Yeah. And Anne is now

38:42

global board director of YouTube, Google,

38:45

Netflix, Pixar, la

38:47

la la. So they

38:50

put their my college, put their money,

38:52

bam, on three state school girls

38:55

from the north my

38:57

god who

38:57

said, glass and bath, and

39:00

they haven't done that. We've all got a weekly page.

39:02

Don't worry. Oh, lovely way. That's

39:07

the first time you've mentioned friends. Friends.

39:10

Yeah. I've got loads. I know you've got a way you

39:12

did say at the beginning, you talked about your

39:14

friends enjoy your Anglo Saxon

39:16

vocabulary, but but but but the but the

39:18

friendships that you fought there were the

39:20

were the have you got lifelong friends from press stating

39:22

or from them

39:23

be.

39:24

Yeah. So you

39:24

got to Cambridge and you kind of found your tribe, or is

39:26

that a bit good?

39:27

No. You didn't? No.

39:28

No. Just two really good, mate. Two solace.

39:31

I've got some others. I have friends

39:33

-- Yeah. -- from Cambridge, but

39:36

I mean, I didn't fall out with

39:38

people. No. No. I understand. But I No.

39:40

I don't know if I'm honoring.

39:41

But I need do you need people in I mean, if

39:43

I saw some of my mates from school now Yeah.

39:46

-- fling their arms around me -- Yeah. -- because we always have

39:48

a good

39:48

laugh.

39:49

Sure. We

39:49

always do the thing. And close, Australia,

39:51

to my first cousin, Shawn --

39:54

Okay. -- so she's so mad as me. So

39:56

in all the school holidays, we used to go

39:59

two miles up the road to stay with my auntie

40:01

Dhillis, my mom's sister, because mom

40:03

had to work.

40:04

Right. Yes. So I was the baby,

40:06

so I was shoved upon the farm

40:09

with Shannon Roberts. So she was

40:11

like my sister, really.

40:15

What works interesting then? Because

40:17

you were in one job for so long on the tele,

40:19

which is how

40:19

most people know

40:20

you, is that you actually know never stand still.

40:23

No. I don't. No. That's quite there's

40:25

a conflict. Love life though. Don't you love life?

40:27

You're of course. I love

40:28

change. I love I just

40:31

it's just such a privilege to work real

40:33

life. You want

40:34

to try everything on the shelves on the you want

40:36

to

40:36

-- Always.

40:37

-- so I mean, what what what sort

40:39

of student will you like at Cambridge then? Because you do I mean,

40:41

it is

40:42

the only black

40:43

spot on your academic record, isn't it

40:45

really?

40:45

I'll tell

40:46

you what

40:46

was and I have a lot of sympathy and I

40:48

get really angry --

40:50

Yeah. -- when I read, you know, in the telegraph,

40:52

oh, goodness me. They are,

40:54

you know,

40:56

actually pursuing children

40:58

from state school

41:00

might not possibly love. The

41:02

same results are one from, but of

41:04

course they bloody dead. Do you

41:06

know what? Do you know what being poor

41:08

risk? No. Harder is.

41:10

Yeah. No. A school like mine would be getting

41:12

a c at school like yours, I think, or

41:15

ABI mean, it's not even rocket science to

41:17

work that out. It's just bloody obvious. Otherwise, our

41:19

parents wouldn't pay the money that they to send us Oh,

41:21

exciting. Well, I guess you have to pretend

41:22

otherwise, you have to pretend that you were born three nil

41:24

up, but you scored a hat trick. Yeah.

41:28

I like that. I'm I'm gonna steal that dress

41:30

and I'm gonna ask you. Whether

41:32

I can or not. So

41:33

you'd so you're there and you're brilliant and you're So

41:36

but I I went and I couldn't

41:38

do what would now be called further math say

41:40

level because my school was so

41:41

small. just

41:42

didn't do it. couldn't do it. So I

41:45

should really have had a catch up

41:47

course. Right. It's now they have, which I would

41:49

have killed. So I was always on the back foot

41:51

to start with. But I got there. I got

41:54

my and then when I met Richard

41:56

Whiteley, he said, so and

41:59

he'd gone to private school Yorkian profit

42:01

yachshund, you know, professional yachshund that

42:03

he'd been to gigglestick. Yeah. He's so

42:05

fondant because he was at Christ College,

42:07

way before me. Uh-huh. They were next door

42:09

to each other. But what grade did

42:11

you get? I said, well, I got a third.

42:14

I said, I should've got A21. Actually,

42:16

I think I should've got first but just

42:18

slipped up. You know, so did

42:20

I? You said, what did you get in there?

42:23

Because you get graded every

42:24

year. You know, you get graded every

42:25

year. Would you get

42:26

your first second. I said, third and a third, really.

42:28

He went, oh, no. Sody's

42:31

died. He has never met

42:33

anyone who's got three thirds

42:35

before. Hi. It

42:38

was my first bomb.

42:41

So so we formed the nines club.

42:43

You can know three thirds strictly speaking

42:45

are

42:46

It was once. Yes. And we screened it

42:48

A9I

42:49

get that. And and you had a good time

42:52

at college. But I really enjoyed it. I

42:54

enjoyed my time there, and

42:56

I learned a lot

42:58

about the science dirty. Right. And

43:00

I learned a lot about privilege.

43:02

Right.

43:03

I learned a lot about arrogance.

43:06

Yes. I and

43:10

I I never felt different

43:15

to anybody. Wow. I

43:17

never felt I just couldn't get over.

43:19

You know, these girls sometimes, not in my

43:21

college, but because you know how this

43:24

Cambridge system

43:24

works. So you mixed people from the colleges and all

43:26

that. My colleagues are wonderful, but

43:29

they never these girls, like these posh

43:30

girls, don't that the seventies, and they go,

43:32

oh.

43:35

Yeah. We really

43:35

have an orgasm because they go, I've

43:37

had it to waste the

43:40

debt.

43:44

I think. Really? Yeah.

43:47

Literally. They're like be giggling. Yeah.

43:50

But in a sort of

43:52

it's arrogant. I thought you're from now

43:54

bloody ass.

43:55

Totally detached, isn't it? Totally.

43:57

Totally detached.

43:59

Not not through any fault of their own, but to

44:01

use, just staggering. What's

44:04

going on? That'd be hell. But then I turned

44:06

up to see what Rick's Chicken was driving a Porsche

44:08

at the time. Yeah. IIII

44:10

always wore thigh length leather

44:12

boots. Every single day, I was in Cambridge

44:14

because everyone else is in jeans. I

44:16

thought, I'm doing that. Thank you very much. To

44:18

the point where that was my nickname, e and mister

44:20

Green. Okay. Even the last he

44:22

he died suddenly last

44:23

year. But the last

44:25

dinner that we were we were at college a few

44:28

years ago, and he called me boob swelled

44:30

them even then.

44:31

That's

44:31

alright. know. So I get utterly unorged

44:34

by anything. I mean, you would never have crossed your mind

44:36

to try change your accent or to change

44:38

the way you

44:38

When my voice has changed, I think you'll

44:40

find if you look on YouTube in the late

44:42

eighties, I was quite sort

44:44

of cut glass. So you've got the other away.

44:46

I don't bloody know, honestly. Right. I can

44:48

go I can go if I go to Liverpool --

44:50

Yeah. It's not coming in. -- twenty

44:52

four hours later, PureScan. That's fine.

44:54

Every day. Waste. Cool

44:57

mess. And the when

44:59

I when I was, I got some color, miss. Someone

45:02

caught me once talk I was talking to a DJ. Yeah.

45:04

But we're gonna see you at Chelsea all Saturday.

45:06

Thanks for that. Thanks for everybody. Put me on and put the phone

45:08

down and then had to ring the marks bath to

45:10

asking. My accent is, well, no, hello. But

45:13

I

45:13

hadn't noticed I've done it. There's someone sitting opposite

45:15

me on their first shift thinking. What that what is this

45:17

weird place? I think it's a northern

45:19

city. Well, it's also a kind of you're trying to

45:21

put other people at their ease, which is

45:22

probably a northern thing. But there are also

45:25

some accents that you just like.

45:26

That's true. That's true. Yeah. Until

45:28

Plumbing Anderson came along. I loved that.

45:31

Nottingham should call

45:32

for No. But not now. This could be spoiling

45:34

it forever. No. So now

45:36

surprisingly quickly, we get to the a bit where

45:38

you'd become

45:39

known, really? The what was that? Two years after

45:41

leaving came Yes. So I worked

45:43

as an engineer, Joe underground.

45:46

Mhmm.

45:47

For a while, in snowdonia, we were

45:50

building this incredible we

45:52

were building. She's

45:54

We I don't feel

45:56

too light.

45:59

We would know

46:00

about I What

46:02

do

46:02

you think you are born? Nice.

46:05

I mean, you were technically contributing for

46:07

the construction price

46:09

services spiked. Yeah. So I would

46:11

just go into ground every day. I

46:13

was in the middle of snow donuts, so there was a

46:15

big lake at the top big lake

46:17

at the bottom. And it

46:20

was so they closed down, actually,

46:22

about five coal fired stations

46:24

-- Right. -- because there was a

46:26

lot of people don't understand that electricity is produced

46:29

in real time. And if it isn't used

46:31

in real time, it literally

46:33

goes into the ground. It's lost forever.

46:36

So this was a system. It's like a

46:38

bloody great big battery. Mhmm. So

46:41

I worked underground in the being

46:43

hall, building all of that.

46:46

Building -- That's so cute. -- great. With

46:49

two thousand blokes and me -- Yeah.

46:51

-- and they were always having fights in

46:53

it's a bit like I'm sure for the first

46:55

woman on a ship. Mhmm. Should she be there? Shouldn't

46:58

she be there? You know, someone would say yes. So they were

47:00

red fighting, which I thought was hilarious.

47:03

So fundamentally, the turbines were inside

47:05

the mountain, burning mountains in this

47:07

national park. Yeah. And so

47:09

when back in the day, you know,

47:11

Corie would come to the end

47:13

of part

47:14

one. Everyone would rush off to to

47:15

switch pedal on so that demand

47:17

for electricity went through the roof.

47:19

They would released and it only

47:21

had a ten second delay, release

47:24

all the water from the top lake, through

47:26

the turbines to generate ten

47:28

seconds later, they'd be like, meg

47:31

meg meg meg meg meg megawatts being

47:33

produced sent off to the

47:35

grid and the water down to

47:37

the bottom. So at nighttime,

47:39

they would use the spare electricity --

47:42

Right. -- to pump all the water back

47:44

again. Okay. Yeah. So and it's

47:46

they call it the electric mountain mouse. I

47:48

work there. And then when I graduated, I only

47:50

had one job offer, which

47:52

was by Christian Salvesen. And

47:56

nobody wanted engineers back then really,

47:59

particularly girls. Mhmm. And I

48:01

couldn't join the RA death because they because

48:04

it didn't have a

48:04

Willie. Mhmm. So I can't fly plane. I

48:06

thought, well, there's no bloody point joining if I can't

48:09

fly plane. Yeah.

48:09

So my my first job,

48:12

glamorous job -- Yeah. -- aged twenty.

48:15

Vorderman. Thank you very much. Super

48:17

bright. Was working in a

48:19

frozen tea factory in Lower

48:20

Stockton. Gosh. So

48:23

you remember how to manage the container?

48:25

This is

48:25

near Cambridge, ish, or we it -- Yeah. -- that was

48:27

the Because

48:28

they sent you every six weeks to do all these different

48:30

jobs. So then they sent me to

48:31

Milton Keynes. A P company did.

48:34

Okay. P company. Yeah. Also had a

48:36

house building company. We like one of

48:38

the graduate management, you know,

48:40

for for Chinese. Yeah. So

48:42

you would you know Do the round thoughts

48:44

of time. Okay. So work on, you know,

48:46

to be a board director company. Right. And

48:48

they're based up in Edinburgh. And so

48:50

I had six weeks in Edinburgh and

48:52

then

48:53

opposite Tony Blair's old College --

48:56

Okay. -- fetters. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. On

48:58

these fetters Avenue. And then

49:00

Milton Keynes now

49:02

you see. Mhmm. Because I love I do

49:04

you know what? I don't own perfume

49:07

and never wear perfume.

49:09

So what does it for me? The

49:11

smell of cement powder. Is it?

49:13

Yeah. Seriously. You wouldn't dab it behind

49:15

your ear. I I would if it was in liquid form.

49:18

And so I

49:21

went to Milton Keynes, and they were building

49:23

all these estates, housing estates. Yeah.

49:25

So I used to go in and

49:27

I pretend I was like a single

49:29

woman looking at what they

49:31

wanted to buy. So going all the porta cabins

49:33

on different Well Ma and

49:35

all these different housing companies. And

49:37

I'd scour the wall because

49:39

they always had a a maps light

49:41

map, and they had, like, red

49:44

pins in whether it's sold and this one

49:46

and the other. And I'd take all the details. And

49:48

then I go back to the office

49:51

and it how many two bedrooms

49:53

of, you know, eight hundred square feet

49:55

they'd sold, and they were terraces. And

49:57

I drew all this graph work and

50:00

that's how we determined what we were

50:02

then going to build --

50:04

Okay. -- on our houses. Of

50:10

commercial espionage scenarios. Of

50:12

the lowest form. Well,

50:13

but effective. You've have you missed out

50:15

Dawn Corus and the blue tits? Or are we coming

50:17

No. We went to I went leads then.

50:20

Because I had a boyfriend in Leeds.

50:23

He played drug by Andy Fraser. Obviously,

50:25

Rick the chick had gone by by then.

50:27

And

50:29

So Andy, I'd met underground. He

50:31

was my boss underground. Oh,

50:32

the way of the

50:33

In the Electric Mountain.

50:35

That's didn't

50:36

Yeah. He was, like, four years older than me.

50:38

Okay. And

50:39

And parts

50:39

crossed again in Leeds today.

50:41

No. We stayed together.

50:42

Oh, okay. Right. Okay. And then,

50:44

well, three weeks after I got home, after I graduated,

50:47

you know, this Cambridge degree, first kid

50:49

from North Wales, you know, blah blah blah

50:51

blah and then said, I'm leaving. For

50:54

the final time, I've only stayed because,

50:57

you know, I didn't want to upset your degree

50:59

of and go pressure. Yeah. And

51:02

and then we we had a

51:04

a flip at five o'clock in the

51:06

morning when the day to gone to

51:08

the quarry in the pickup to get

51:11

stone, and

51:13

we had packed through this old

51:15

stats and -- Mhmm. --

51:18

which was a rust bucket. And

51:20

we've packed it overnight in about

51:23

half five in the morning, we set off

51:25

in the opposite direction to the quarry.

51:28

And she said, we were going down to Windsor

51:30

where my sister lives. She by now, she lived

51:32

in the winter spy park group because

51:35

Billy Smart has sold the circus of what's spy

51:37

park. And

51:39

did she do? Yes, sir. So she Secretary. Oh,

51:41

no. Nine time. No. She wasn't nine

51:44

time. Oh, I can

51:46

tell you a time. But because It's

51:50

very friendly. You've been a

51:52

tight red walker. Just

51:56

say in. Okay. Just saying.

51:59

Anyway -- Yes. -- life's never done

52:01

this over. Okay. So my mom

52:03

said to me on the way down, she said, and

52:05

you never see Gabrielle. I don't know.

52:07

You never see him again, and you never

52:09

to go back to Wales again. Okay,

52:12

ma'am. So she ended up living

52:14

in student, because she was in her

52:16

fifties and in Windsor. And

52:19

I was living out my car, basically. Oh.

52:22

And digs for about a year. And then I said to

52:24

her, mom can't you know, can't this can't go

52:26

on. Why don't

52:28

we move to leads? Because I go

52:30

up to see Andy Fraser or every every fortnight.

52:33

And they've got dead cheap houses

52:35

there. Yeah. You can always get a job because

52:37

she was a brilliant secretary. You

52:40

can always get a job anywhere you go,

52:42

I'll get the company

52:44

to give me as a comment up in the

52:46

north somewhere in in Lee, actually,

52:49

in Lancashire. And we buy a

52:51

house. Okay. I was twenty

52:53

one. She's, okay, darling. You're organized

52:55

at all then. So I found this house

52:58

sorted out a joint mortgage, and

53:00

it was seventeen thousand pounds this

53:02

house in Hedging Lake Drive. Little

53:04

three bed semi. And

53:07

we moved in three weeks later, she

53:09

saw this article in the Yorkshire evening post

53:12

about how this new channel -- Mhmm. -- now eighty

53:14

two. Called Channel four was gonna start.

53:17

And in leads, in headingly,

53:19

they were gonna record the first show,

53:21

it's called countdown, and they couldn't

53:23

find anyone who's good at numbers. Mom showed this

53:25

me this article. She's like, oh, I'm like, I'm too bit

53:27

daft. I'll just

53:30

don't be stupid, so she

53:32

wrote the letter, put my graduation and

53:34

photo in, forged the signature and

53:36

sent it off to York television down the

53:38

road, and that as they

53:40

say It's history. Well, really

53:43

is actually television history. My wife,

53:45

when I told her that I was interviewing you today,

53:47

she used the phrase role model, which she

53:49

never uses. And just the idea that

53:51

you could be, you know, a beautiful

53:53

woman who's on television as much

53:55

for her brains

53:57

as her beauty. But now I'm gonna shrink

53:59

on track because I don't IIII would

54:01

never consider myself to be a

54:03

role. I never But it but it was a it

54:05

was it was almost unheard of. Whether

54:08

you kind of I mean, it wasn't conscious on your

54:10

part. When did you realize so and and for people

54:12

for for people who may not know, goddamn

54:15

was the breakout hit for channel four.

54:17

It was something looks epic and immediately

54:20

huge. Your chemistry were Richard Wiley,

54:22

a huge part of the successful

54:24

ago. He was someone I wish I'd met. I I because

54:26

he was a journalist as well. So probably

54:28

He was a political journalist. My dad was

54:30

working on the Dunkah Street new telegraph. Yeah.

54:33

So their parts probably crossed at various

54:35

times over over the

54:36

years, but it was it was a huge show. And

54:39

Channel four's biggest show for about twenty. Forever

54:41

see. When

54:42

when did you realize having

54:44

almost fallen into it?

54:46

Yes. When did when did you realize

54:48

that it was When I

54:50

had life changing or career defining

54:52

or whatever you want to

54:53

think. Yeah. Right. As well or Yeah.

54:55

As well. Okay. And then they said and

54:58

then countdown was recommissioned because they had

55:00

more problems in the peak time

55:03

than they did in daytime. Yeah. So

55:05

the left us alone. Yeah. And we were up

55:07

in, you know, outer sight out of mind.

55:09

We were up in leads. Mhmm. All

55:11

the, you know Sharonary. Metropolitan

55:14

and

55:14

leads. We're down in

55:16

in fighting. Like Yeah. Hello.

55:19

Nice though. Yeah. There's a lovely way

55:21

to live in Australia. Yeah. And so

55:24

we just quietly got on with it. And I

55:26

I think my first contract was for forty shows

55:28

or something. And then Jennifer

55:31

just kind of they needed

55:33

to fill airtime. So is it right?

55:35

Commission another, you know, year or whatever.

55:38

And and

55:40

I couldn't get enough holiday off work.

55:42

Mhmm. So I asked my boss

55:44

and he said, no, you're gonna make your mind up, you know, if

55:46

you're gonna do this nonsense telly

55:48

or go and, well, yeah, I'm gonna do nonsense telly.

55:50

Because my four back position because I've

55:53

still only twenty two was

55:56

if all else fails. If I get

55:58

thirty and I don't jump now, right,

56:01

I will always regret it. Mhmm. And

56:03

if I get thirty and okay

56:05

if I had to give up the house and all of that,

56:08

One, I can always get married because

56:10

that's what my mother said. Yeah. But

56:12

actually, seriously, I could always be an

56:14

accountant. True. Go. That was

56:17

my fallback.

56:18

You've got the maths.

56:19

I've got

56:19

the maths. So I could do I could do adding it

56:21

up.

56:22

So so you thought this is this isn't like

56:25

like

56:25

joining the circus. This is just something unique

56:27

and exciting, and I'd be daft if didn't give it a while.

56:29

I love exciting. Yeah. Still.

56:32

Yeah. I just adore exciting.

56:34

And and when did you sort of

56:36

or possibly well, I mean, because Richard was doing calendar

56:38

at the time anyway. So he

56:40

already white knight be white. White knight actually.

56:42

The type of vision is parents

56:44

and nothing to do with his labeeddoke.

56:46

Yeah. But nothing. Yeah.

56:48

I'm it was untally twice if you look here

56:50

right now.

56:50

But so when did you both realize

56:52

that that I mean I

56:54

think it was quite I think it was late eighties.

56:56

Okay. Yeah. So I've been on for

56:58

a while by then.

56:59

Yeah. But even then, you

57:01

know, women had to stick

57:03

in their role. I mean, Anne Diamond was

57:05

doing a -- That's right. -- a callback then, TVA.

57:08

Mhmm. And

57:08

then another twenty years on the program during which

57:10

time you became, and this fascinates me There's a type

57:13

of celebrity. It's it's not always

57:15

women, but it is usually women

57:17

who everything you do becomes

57:20

newsworthy. So I

57:21

don't know who's pissing the rubbish out.

57:23

Makes you I think the last person spoke to about

57:25

this is probably Susannah Reid who's very much in

57:27

that.

57:28

Yes. So Susannah keeps herself much more

57:30

private than I do. You go.

57:31

Yep. But at that time, you were probably keeping

57:33

yourself more private

57:34

than Well, there was yeah. Because it was only paparazzi.

57:37

Well,

57:37

it was a different media, but you became more of

57:39

those people who really couldn't -- Yeah.

57:41

--

57:41

open a window without -- No. Exactly.

57:43

--

57:43

being in the papers. Yes. That must have been

57:45

weird. Well, it was,

57:48

but I mean,

57:51

I

57:51

just enjoy the thing. I enjoy

57:53

my life.

57:54

Yeah. And that yeah. Of course, stepping bad

57:56

things that have happened in

57:59

my private life, but also through

58:01

the press. But by

58:03

and large. By and large.

58:06

The press have been kind to me. Yes. And

58:11

I mean, there you know, there have been times. I think

58:14

what? Sure. You've written what?

58:17

But I have a good relationship with them.

58:20

And I kind of

58:22

know their

58:23

game, if you like. Yeah. And being

58:25

on the Talli as a business

58:26

-- Mhmm.

58:27

-- so so I'm pretty pragmatic about

58:29

it.

58:30

So you know what is expected of

58:32

you to keep? But I've two things.

58:34

I loved it, you know, of doing. I love

58:36

pulling the pin and throwing the grenade.

58:38

Yes.

58:39

I love that. I didn't know that about you.

58:41

Did you know? Until relatively recent.

58:43

Yeah. I suppose that's because I've

58:45

done it in other areas -- Yes. -- and not in

58:48

the political of reading.

58:49

Sure. And that brings us to the well,

58:51

good I mean, the I before we get into the

58:53

political arena. The the the mission

58:56

the other mission of your life is education.

58:58

Yeah. I adore it. I I was

59:00

struck when I was read about how your

59:02

maths business

59:05

or what's the right?

59:05

Yeah. So it's an online school. Yeah. Your online

59:07

school. You provided heck of a lot of free tuition

59:10

during Yes. So we it's

59:12

called the math factor. Yeah. I I built

59:14

it with a lot of staff Mhmm. --

59:16

twenty

59:17

ten. Do a lot of you

59:19

do a lot of building. You build a lot of things. You build a lot of things.

59:22

You know what? I tell you what.

59:24

I I have to stop. It's like I was driving

59:27

here and other people

59:29

were bibbing their horns because in a narrow street

59:31

in London, there was this cranes and it was

59:33

lifting some reinforcing steels

59:36

and they're all gonna Hi. Yeah. Yeah.

59:38

Go on. Yeah. I've been near a ten minute

59:41

eye. Yeah. I've got my eye on the

59:42

steel. That's right. I wonder where they're

59:45

going.

59:45

Oh, so it's a long way. Look at the crane.

59:48

Look at the sea. Yeah. Five fascinated.

59:50

Yeah. Absolutely

59:51

fascinating. Love a machine.

59:53

And so you built this. And then So

59:55

yes. So the math factor. So then I sold

59:57

it to Pearson, world's

1:00:00

biggest education company and

1:00:02

managed to persuade them, you know, that time in

1:00:04

twenty twenty when we kinda knew we were gonna

1:00:06

have some form of locks Yes. And

1:00:09

we were I think back then, we

1:00:11

were two pounds a week. We're a pound a week

1:00:13

now to subscription. I'm very proud

1:00:15

of the mass factor. Yeah. And it changes kids'

1:00:17

lives. And I persuaded

1:00:20

them, instead of the greedy ones

1:00:22

who were profiteering, we gave

1:00:24

all of our subscribers their money

1:00:26

back. Wow. And we went

1:00:28

free, and we had half a million children

1:00:30

registered. Which

1:00:31

was four months.

1:00:33

mean, life changing in terms of learning the mass

1:00:35

the future, but also life changing in terms of

1:00:37

giving them something to do during that map series

1:00:39

of British history. And you preempted my

1:00:41

cult psychology here when you talked about people

1:00:43

who we use this as an opportunity to profit

1:00:45

it.

1:00:46

I cannot. Because How can

1:00:48

anybody look

1:00:50

at something which was so desperate

1:00:53

in our history. Yeah. And

1:00:55

think about making money. I

1:00:57

mean, Yes.

1:01:00

Pay for your costs. Do you know what I mean?

1:01:02

Look. I mean, we lost money -- Right.

1:01:04

-- obviously, at that time. But it

1:01:06

was How could I how?

1:01:09

What head space other

1:01:11

than a cruel one? Yeah.

1:01:13

Would think great. Hear

1:01:16

all these people. They're all crying. All they

1:01:18

can do is bang a tin lid on the Thursday

1:01:20

night. Mhmm. I know. I'm gonna

1:01:22

make a load of money out of Yeah.

1:01:25

-- what kind of head thinks

1:01:27

that

1:01:27

way? I'm I'm so glad you put it like that because

1:01:29

it is isn't it? It just a type. It is

1:01:31

just a code because you can't conceive of

1:01:34

looking at that unfolding tragedy. Those

1:01:36

pictures from Italy thinking might

1:01:38

happen here, I'm gonna set up a company

1:01:40

from scratch that is providing I'm gonna

1:01:42

get. And then there was a lot of them doing. So

1:01:44

was that a switch flick for you because you've always

1:01:46

been

1:01:47

Well, we didn't know about it, did we? No.

1:01:49

But in terms of in terms of what way you've

1:01:51

been in the last six to twelve months.

1:01:53

Yeah. As these things have

1:01:54

emerged. Was was there --

1:01:55

Yes. That's a absolute

1:01:57

sense of injustice and

1:02:00

and and At fence. I

1:02:02

think it's a I think

1:02:04

the whole thing and the more

1:02:06

you do you only have to scratch the

1:02:07

surface? I know you do. It's there

1:02:09

in plain sight. The hour again, so

1:02:11

Unapologetic as all of Totally.

1:02:14

We only made fifteen thousand pounds last

1:02:16

year, and we've made fifteen million pounds this year. That's

1:02:19

That's a high fives all

1:02:20

round. We've haven't we've done well. It's it's breathtaking.

1:02:22

Right? To normal people, if that's Well,

1:02:24

think it's criminal. Yeah. And people might

1:02:26

say, well, there's no law against it. It's still

1:02:29

criminal. It's morally criminal. And

1:02:31

if I were in charge, which I never will be,

1:02:33

and I wouldn't want to be, I would

1:02:35

make laws to make it criminal.

1:02:39

There are so many things. So many

1:02:42

Dick Tati in company law

1:02:44

and so on, where people continually get

1:02:46

away Mhmm. -- with asset

1:02:49

stripping and and the

1:02:51

tax people go out after the people

1:02:53

who give money to the companies, taking

1:02:55

them money out, close it

1:02:57

down, and the poor people have to go to compensation

1:03:00

scheme and or of things to try and get some of

1:03:02

it that military

1:03:03

Vorderman. So, you know, I mean, the list is endless.

1:03:06

And yet, they're free. They

1:03:08

they never go to jail. There no criminal

1:03:10

act which has taken place. It

1:03:12

is a criminal act.

1:03:14

Yes. This is the

1:03:15

the the egregiousness of the

1:03:17

It's too disgusting.

1:03:19

Yeah. It's

1:03:19

what it is. And I've never

1:03:21

really, I suppose. But it

1:03:22

needed the pandemic to happen for you to

1:03:25

feel the fury that you're articulating

1:03:28

that because it was It's

1:03:29

a pandemic to happen. But

1:03:30

it's the horror and and the

1:03:31

opportunity. Has changed. Yeah. It

1:03:33

has changed. Right. And

1:03:36

having lived through, you know,

1:03:38

sixty two I am now. Yeah. So

1:03:40

having lived through years to see

1:03:43

and to work hard and to fight

1:03:45

and and to watch society change

1:03:47

in terms of women's rights, which

1:03:49

is a big thing of mine. Obviously,

1:03:52

children from fantastic background, big

1:03:54

thing of mine. To see education becoming

1:03:57

more equal -- Mhmm. -- certainly, Oxford

1:03:59

level than it ever used to be. And

1:04:02

then for this lockdown

1:04:05

is incomprehensible

1:04:07

now, how time

1:04:09

will and fearful.

1:04:11

Mhmm. And people were

1:04:13

living in fear, you know, elderly

1:04:16

people. I mean, my mom always lived with me

1:04:18

-- Right. -- and she died a

1:04:20

couple of in twenty seventeen.

1:04:22

Sure. Thank God in a

1:04:24

way. Sure. In her if she

1:04:26

had lived, she couldn't cope

1:04:27

with this at all. And I know how upset

1:04:30

she would have been not

1:04:32

to have been able to see people and

1:04:35

just so anxious. She

1:04:37

would have suffered anyway. And

1:04:39

to know that other people were going through that

1:04:41

kid's being able to have their education.

1:04:46

And I just go back to it. Mhmm.

1:04:48

How can you think about not

1:04:51

just making a living

1:04:53

-- Sure. -- like, you know, I'm a truck driver, so

1:04:55

I'm now gonna be one of the few vehicles on

1:04:57

the road and I'm gonna do my bit and, you know, everyone's

1:04:59

clapping the truck drives quite rightly. I

1:05:03

am going to make searingly

1:05:07

huge amounts of

1:05:09

greedy money. Mhmm. I can't

1:05:11

can't comprehend it even

1:05:12

today. I've

1:05:13

got a great time and tons

1:05:15

of seeing it and thinking how can

1:05:17

I What is that? Greg Hams.

1:05:19

You said you read about that one with his

1:05:21

mate. Yeah. He had a company that

1:05:23

only had a turnover of nine thousand pounds

1:05:26

the year before and was fundamentally

1:05:28

dormant had no

1:05:29

employment. So you've got to what it is. And then twenty

1:05:31

five million quotes. So so you've got the

1:05:33

skills, you've got the contacts, you're possible. And these are

1:05:35

the people that were making stuff that was usable. But

1:05:38

how can you not put your shoulders

1:05:40

to the wheel as a member of the community and

1:05:42

think There's no way I'm taking

1:05:44

twenty five million quid out of this. I might I might

1:05:46

even take a million, but I'm not taking twenty

1:05:48

five. But you just that's the bit you can't get your head.

1:05:50

Get my

1:05:51

head around. And I think most people find that.

1:05:53

They were paid for this bloody stuff. Yes.

1:05:55

Fifteen billion

1:05:58

pounds worth --

1:05:58

Yeah. -- is a new possible. Exactly that.

1:06:00

And now we're paying to store it. So did

1:06:03

you make a conscious decision? Because you mentioned

1:06:05

that the press you've had a good relationship with

1:06:07

the

1:06:07

press. I have had very you mentioned

1:06:09

the business. And but I'm very happy to argue

1:06:12

with them. I know you. And I'm very happy to become

1:06:14

litigious when necessary. Okay. Have

1:06:16

you done that?

1:06:16

You've I had to. Right. So they go,

1:06:19

alright, come on. So you you you said So I have

1:06:21

that have

1:06:22

bells as it were. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:06:24

Yeah. I have certain mobile numbers.

1:06:26

Good. Excuse me. Yes. I've

1:06:28

just seen

1:06:28

online. Don't worry, I'll be down in ten minutes.

1:06:31

Oh, good. You know?

1:06:32

Again, you're not ever intimidated. Are you

1:06:34

back? Your emails will

1:06:35

be have been in Have you have you

1:06:37

do boy? Well,

1:06:39

certain newspapers

1:06:40

and sign up for that. Because it's a horrible

1:06:43

spotlight. Yes. But I tell you what,

1:06:45

it's a bloody superpower. Yeah. This

1:06:47

is the fire. It's

1:06:49

my fire

1:06:50

now. Yeah. And it makes

1:06:53

me burn. Because

1:06:56

there is no part of my life, of

1:06:58

my children's lives, you know,

1:07:00

papa, all sort of, you know, helicopters over

1:07:03

the house. You could even see the cushions on the floor

1:07:05

through the through the glass roof, all

1:07:07

of that. Now it popped by life or my

1:07:09

body -- Mhmm. -- that has

1:07:11

not been overanalyzed,

1:07:14

abused, blah blah blah.

1:07:16

Online and in the press Right? Now to some

1:07:19

people, they go, oh, it's terrible. It's something

1:07:21

that's got to stop for me. There's

1:07:24

nothing.

1:07:24

What have you

1:07:25

can sell it. What have you got? What have you

1:07:27

got? Yeah. There's nothing else

1:07:30

in your locker. Go. Right? There is nothing

1:07:32

else. Sell wide pain. I don't get

1:07:34

distracted by it. Good. It's just

1:07:36

like, oh, run along. Yeah. Just run

1:07:38

along. I've got things

1:07:40

to do.

1:07:44

Was it conscious then? Did it did it in because

1:07:46

I you said you've been a bit like a volcano

1:07:48

in the last ten minutes. You've erupted in

1:07:50

this room. So did you erupt as

1:07:53

the full extent of what? Because you

1:07:55

knew Michellemer and

1:07:56

socially.

1:07:56

Yeah. And we'll let's talk about Michelle. Well, yeah.

1:07:59

Fine, love, and you please. So I tell you what

1:08:01

it is. So Michelle,

1:08:04

I was introduced to by the BBC for

1:08:06

celebrity apprentice as comic relief.

1:08:09

Yeah. And it's in trusting. When

1:08:12

you are intrigued if you if I introduced

1:08:14

you to

1:08:14

someone, oh, this is my friend

1:08:18

who's got this amazing company. You

1:08:20

take that at face

1:08:21

value because

1:08:22

you respect my judgment.

1:08:23

That's exactly that.

1:08:25

So when on the BBC, you are introduced

1:08:27

to this, but you take it -- Mhmm.

1:08:29

--

1:08:29

as the truth. Yeah. Yeah.

1:08:31

Yeah. So at that time

1:08:35

or or a year later, I start audited hosting

1:08:37

the loose women's show on ITV. So

1:08:40

I was in London all the time, and

1:08:42

so they gave you an allowance for the

1:08:44

hotel. And I thought, well, I'll top it up because I'm just

1:08:46

staying in. Because

1:08:49

I live in Bristol. It's a land

1:08:51

on a good time. So I

1:08:53

started staying in the doorchester, and

1:08:56

I would top up what I see you would

1:08:58

give me. So and that's my choice. So of course.

1:09:01

And I was doing another work as well.

1:09:04

And she was staying there at

1:09:06

the same time. So you're

1:09:08

a single woman. You're like, you go downstairs

1:09:10

to the bar again. That's where it

1:09:12

sort of began. It lasted about, say,

1:09:15

eighteen months maybe -- Mhmm. -- something like

1:09:17

that.

1:09:18

I won't go into the detail, but I

1:09:21

I just realized where

1:09:23

Yeah. I

1:09:24

don't wanna be seen with this person. Yeah.

1:09:26

And

1:09:27

and then all this stuff started emerging.

1:09:29

Many years later, I mean, I that was

1:09:32

twenty another? You

1:09:33

you were shocked by unsurprised then by what

1:09:35

you

1:09:35

discovered. Unsurprised at all. Got it. Yeah.

1:09:37

And then it you know, that that's just one of the

1:09:39

examples that you've cited. We know but most

1:09:41

people won't know the names of the companies

1:09:44

or the individuals that with private eye Richard

1:09:46

Brooks at private eye has done in psych aopedic

1:09:48

job of detailing all of it. And -- Yeah. -- and

1:09:51

that's why I use word eruption because it is

1:09:54

not an obvious thing for you to

1:09:56

do. However, angry you may be, you're conscious

1:09:58

of

1:09:59

I think also. Isn't

1:10:01

Parapet? You haven't

1:10:01

played ahead of us at all?

1:10:03

You know, because you

1:10:05

won't have to do

1:10:05

the do so long. Many good people in this

1:10:07

country.

1:10:08

Yes.

1:10:08

There's so many decent people. There's vast majority.

1:10:11

I

1:10:11

think -- I do so. -- have to hope so. Yeah.

1:10:13

And and they try their

1:10:15

best. Mhmm. And now the

1:10:17

amount of angst and anxiety

1:10:20

and the kids who haven't had the education

1:10:23

that they should have have got bless their

1:10:25

souls.

1:10:26

I do they're all just trying

1:10:28

their best. They're so beaten

1:10:31

down

1:10:31

-- Yeah. -- by it. There

1:10:34

there was a shift in the psychology because

1:10:36

you were asking this morning about how how did

1:10:39

John and get away with being such a liar.

1:10:41

How does he still bid some? Yeah. Not

1:10:43

not with the majority, but it's still not. Still

1:10:45

get away with

1:10:46

it. And I think there was a psychological shift

1:10:49

--

1:10:49

Mhmm. -- which was we must be

1:10:51

obedient. Mhmm. And we have

1:10:54

never had that in our psyche for

1:10:56

the last hundred years. Right. So

1:10:59

so it was that it was almost

1:11:01

like going back to the First World War And

1:11:05

you will be told. And it and

1:11:07

it wasn't just for a week. It

1:11:09

went on for two

1:11:10

years, really. But if And every night,

1:11:12

we would see posh boy --

1:11:14

That says -- there. Yeah.

1:11:16

Speaking in a very true Chilean manner, we

1:11:18

had no idea what was going on behind

1:11:19

closed doors.

1:11:20

You had soon act the accountants --

1:11:22

Yeah. -- you know, to his side and yet then

1:11:24

you had a scientist. Yeah. And it was

1:11:26

all, you know,

1:11:28

stay at home, save the NHS can't remember

1:11:31

with the three things, you know, wear a mask to save

1:11:33

the uninsured. It's not

1:11:34

saving the uninsured yet. They

1:11:36

put neck. Yeah. And and

1:11:38

I think it went deep into

1:11:40

our psychosis because

1:11:43

we were so I mean,

1:11:45

I was, you know, upset

1:11:48

I didn't see my daughter for ages because

1:11:51

she was in Cambridge at the time. My

1:11:53

son lives with me. And and

1:11:56

I obviously like everybody else. She didn't see your

1:11:58

friends. She didn't see your rest of your family.

1:12:00

All of that. And it was such AAA

1:12:04

trauma. Yeah. And I think

1:12:06

it's taken us. And then it was oh,

1:12:08

you allowed four people outside the

1:12:10

pub if you're in Wales, but

1:12:12

you allowed six if you're across the Vorderman

1:12:15

England. I'm not doing science

1:12:17

after

1:12:17

them. No. And I think it also affected the

1:12:19

psychology of government. Right. I

1:12:21

think that we can do had absolute

1:12:23

power. And we know what comes with absolute

1:12:26

power. Don't we?

1:12:26

We do. Absolute corruption. And and if they'd

1:12:28

been good on his decent people, this

1:12:31

would have been fine or not fine necessarily,

1:12:33

but it would have been like a

1:12:35

wall. It would have been we are on the same side,

1:12:37

but we're taking it together. But, yeah,

1:12:39

but we never work because he was having a party and

1:12:41

the rest of them were filling the pocket.

1:12:42

And the rest, that's just what we

1:12:44

know. What

1:12:46

happens next then?

1:12:47

I mean, where where do you take this time? I'm

1:12:49

cracking on me. There you are. Yeah.

1:12:53

It's almost like well, I've

1:12:56

got no fear with it, but what I what

1:13:00

is the

1:13:00

corruption. I am not allied

1:13:02

to any political part

1:13:03

it,

1:13:04

by the way.

1:13:04

We've worked with both. I have

1:13:06

worked with David Blunckett very close. And

1:13:08

we're Michael Gove, actually, both in

1:13:10

the education field and protection of

1:13:13

children online. Time. And

1:13:16

I'm very proud of both of those

1:13:18

pieces of

1:13:19

work. But I think now

1:13:23

The stuff that really concerns me

1:13:25

now is well,

1:13:28

it's the fact that at the and the

1:13:30

the national crime agency are doing nothing

1:13:33

-- Mhmm. -- that concerns me.

1:13:35

Mhmm. But the PPE BIP lane

1:13:37

is a tiny part of it. The

1:13:40

whole BBC chairman

1:13:42

and Robbie Gibbs and all of the

1:13:44

rest of it and the two in inquiries -- Mhmm.

1:13:47

-- both linked to Schallcrest, both of the

1:13:49

people -- Mhmm. -- who was in

1:13:52

bought the Jewish chronicle with Robbie Gibb,

1:13:55

who was that, you know, I mean, it's like

1:13:58

it's it's a chess

1:14:00

game you don't want to be playing. Yeah.

1:14:03

And I genuinely feel

1:14:05

like Javid, such a Javid who

1:14:07

then was allowed as a minister, somehow

1:14:10

or other, to become a

1:14:12

paid adviser to JPMorgan.

1:14:15

Mhmm. It's

1:14:17

and then am after he became

1:14:20

health

1:14:20

secretary, JPMorgan, set up JPMorgan

1:14:23

Health. And and

1:14:25

it was just like, how obvious does this?

1:14:27

What do you think have to be? And I think

1:14:29

there are two pockets of ministers

1:14:31

now. There are those who

1:14:35

are the city boys. Yeah. I've

1:14:38

never been comfortable with the city. No.

1:14:41

And they

1:14:43

are in this. For

1:14:46

big books. They're in

1:14:48

it. They're all fairly new to politics

1:14:50

as well since David Cameron, and

1:14:53

they're in it for big money for them

1:14:56

because they have a city mindset and

1:14:58

they're bringing in their boys

1:15:00

behind them Richard Sharp. BBC chairman was

1:15:03

an adviser in number ten during

1:15:05

the pandemic. I mean, it goes

1:15:07

you know, it just goes on and on and on.

1:15:11

And and yet, I think there are some other

1:15:13

politicians and talk about the government.

1:15:16

Yeah. Who are in

1:15:18

it? Because the power thing has gone to

1:15:20

their

1:15:20

head. There are all also

1:15:22

some decent MPs. You

1:15:24

know? Yeah. They're not all. No. It's

1:15:26

important to remember that. Yeah. And it's it's important

1:15:29

to democracy does when you say they're

1:15:30

But a lot of them are gonna leave --

1:15:32

Yeah. --

1:15:33

in the next two years. But what really concerns me,

1:15:35

James, is what's coming up in the next

1:15:37

two years, and that's why I want them out this year --

1:15:39

Right. --

1:15:39

because the financial services and marketing

1:15:41

bill is coming through. Hello?

1:15:44

Has anyone even written about it?

1:15:46

No. They haven't. Have you looked at

1:15:48

it? So after two thousand

1:15:50

and

1:15:50

eight. Yeah. Regulation was put in place.

1:15:52

Oh, absolutely. Yes. I do know about I know about it. I

1:15:54

know about it. I mean, there's a lot of people. Yeah.

1:15:57

To protect consumers. Yes. All of it's

1:15:59

been dismantled. Deregulating the

1:16:01

post Deregulating. Regulation that

1:16:03

was designed to protect us from another global

1:16:05

firefight. And then good go into another

1:16:07

stage where it should be marketed to the public.

1:16:10

What? And voter ID

1:16:12

and all of those

1:16:13

things. It they deeply concerning because

1:16:15

this is coming into the basis of

1:16:17

democracy itself. And are you confident?

1:16:19

Final question. Second last question. Oh, yeah.

1:16:21

Go on. Are you confident that the the

1:16:24

the platform you currently

1:16:25

inhabit, which is unique and very careful

1:16:27

shaped.

1:16:28

Yeah.

1:16:28

Is it the best platform from which to be

1:16:31

crusading in this use that word of In

1:16:33

what way, won't see anyone I've got at the moment? Yes.

1:16:35

I don't know. But you you know, you

1:16:37

could you could go into politics.

1:16:40

You could I don't want to go into a different form

1:16:42

of broadcasting perhaps you could Like

1:16:43

what? Why don't know. You could

1:16:45

just show with us. An

1:16:46

idea. You could just show with us. I mean, you could

1:16:48

just more than happy to do that.

1:16:50

III tell you what, I read genuinely

1:16:54

I feel as I'm coming across so

1:16:57

much stuff. Yeah.

1:16:59

That Twitter with

1:17:01

its wonderful hundred and forty characters

1:17:03

and and a quote tweet --

1:17:04

Yeah. -- isn't -- It's

1:17:06

not enough. It's

1:17:06

just not enough. And

1:17:09

I want to explain it to people.

1:17:11

Yeah.

1:17:12

And I and I want I would love to

1:17:14

do something. Usually, I love to do something.

1:17:16

It's

1:17:16

dissemination that you're talking about. Because

1:17:18

now is the time. But you're doing your puzzle solving

1:17:20

again. You want get all of these pieces together

1:17:23

and show people the finished

1:17:24

picture. Thank you. It was just so bad it is.

1:17:27

I wanna play it on a monopoly board, so

1:17:29

I wanna put all the It's on the

1:17:31

Go to jail

1:17:31

side. Oh, you're in good company. Yeah. Good. Final

1:17:34

question, which is really gonna sound really odd.

1:17:36

Okay. That's it. It's all for the

1:17:38

girlfriend. Oh, don't say it's a conundrum.

1:17:40

It's not a conundrum.

1:17:42

If we're

1:17:42

in a restaurant No. It's not No. It's not No.

1:17:45

It's nothing like that. But I think it might be a silly

1:17:47

question because IIII wanna talk

1:17:50

about we haven't used the word

1:17:51

ambition. You've never really demonstrated ambition

1:17:54

except for challenge and change. Except

1:17:56

for wanting to be a fighter pilot. A part

1:17:58

part have never been able to do You have got

1:18:00

your partner's license. I have got my There you go. We should definitely

1:18:02

get that in before on

1:18:04

time. On a personal

1:18:05

level. Yes. Do you have any ambitions Yes.

1:18:10

What?

1:18:11

I want to I want to play cleopatra

1:18:14

at Stratford.

1:18:15

Go. What would anybody want to

1:18:17

do that. I

1:18:20

want to be shocked. In

1:18:24

the Rio Carnival, other Brazilian Carnivals

1:18:26

are also acceptable with

1:18:29

a great big off hairdressed.

1:18:32

Like, sequins on

1:18:35

the essential ice

1:18:36

terms. I'm covered in

1:18:38

body pain. Oh,

1:18:40

but I'll make some calls.

1:18:44

Tell everybody about thank you. My

1:18:46

pleasure.

1:18:52

A spokesperson for Greg Hams

1:18:54

said, Greg Hans forwarded a message

1:18:57

from someone who contacted him to the relevant

1:18:59

officials Greg Hans had no further role

1:19:01

or involvement in the process and was unaware

1:19:03

of any outcome.