0:00

This is

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a global

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player original

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podcast.

0:14

And welcome to Full Disclosure, a podcast

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project designed entirely to let me spend

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more time with interesting people than I

0:21

would ever get on the radio. Katie

0:23

Tunstall, welcome. I'm honoured. I am honoured.

0:25

And I think we can begin at

0:28

the end, so to speak, because I

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saw your latest project last night. I

0:32

saw Clulis, the musical Trafalgar Theatre. You're

0:34

my first, my first judgement. It's so

0:37

good! Oh, yay! It's so good, I

0:39

mean you must do not, you must

0:41

have an inkling of whether or not

0:43

something has worked or not. Yes, definitely.

0:45

I would say though that I am

0:47

not, I've not been a kind of

0:50

mad avid musical goer, so I actually

0:52

haven't seen that many. So I'm kind

0:54

of flying by the seat of my

0:56

pants a lot of the time with

0:58

this, but I have a great mentor

1:00

in Glenn Slater who's doing the lyrics

1:03

for it, he's very experienced for

1:05

it, he's very experienced.

1:07

So how did you end up doing it?

1:09

I think it was a lockdown thing, wasn't

1:12

it? Not that project particular, but

1:14

musicals in general. Yeah, it was

1:16

a lockdown thing. It was obviously challenging

1:18

for everybody in many different ways. And

1:21

there was a huge silver lining in

1:23

it for me, where I really, really

1:25

appreciated having downtime where I was not

1:27

gigging. And that had not happened for

1:30

15 years. And I really realized I

1:32

was a bit burnt out and that

1:34

it was time to... just try and

1:36

expand creatively a little bit and

1:39

do something else. And this had

1:41

come up on a project. I

1:43

was doing with Craig Ferguson, brilliant,

1:45

late night show post, Scottish man

1:47

as we all know, comedian. He

1:49

had a film called Saving Grace,

1:51

which I'm now doing music and

1:53

lyrics for that show, but Glenn

1:56

was actually originally the lyricist on

1:58

that project as well. have been

2:00

going even longer than I've been

2:02

on this one. And Glenn's politely

2:04

stepped off that a while ago,

2:06

because he had too much on,

2:08

and then got in touch with

2:11

me during lockdown saying, we're going

2:13

to try and do clueless original

2:15

music. Would you like to be

2:17

the composer? I mean, absolutely

2:19

no-brainer. Is it? It's such

2:21

a modern classic. It's such a brilliant

2:23

piece of work. And, you know, it...

2:26

it has remained like a zeitgeist cultural

2:28

piece of work. My 16 year old who loved it

2:30

every bit as much as I did. Oh I love

2:32

to hear that that's great. The full generation

2:35

or spread the audience was absolutely

2:37

really really really good and it's

2:39

not a Dukebox musical because the

2:41

songs are original. It's Duke Box in

2:43

the sense that my idea that I brought

2:45

to the project was as soon as I

2:48

heard that we were staying in the 90s

2:50

I was delighted that we weren't sort of

2:52

trying to remake it remake it in any

2:54

way. come up with this sort of playlist

2:56

of North Star 90s hits that we would

2:58

pay homage to without ripping off, but

3:01

that you would be listening to a song

3:03

and go, hang on a minute, this feels

3:05

a bit like Ensign, or this feels a

3:07

bit like Green Day, or this feels a

3:09

bit like the primitives, or you know, whatever.

3:11

And before you could actually work out what

3:14

we were referencing, you're actually

3:16

listening to a brand new song.

3:18

It is, I'm sure it's going to

3:20

be a triumph for people to make

3:22

their own minds up and I would

3:24

urge them to do so. As I

3:26

said, we've begun almost at the end.

3:28

It's not quite the end, is it?

3:30

Because you're 50 this year, I think.

3:32

I'm allowed to say that. I'm allowed

3:34

to say that. Of course you are. I

3:36

mean, it feels very much like a new

3:39

chapter, so it does feel like a beginning

3:41

in many ways. It's a huge year.

3:43

20th anniversary of item, so let's go,

3:45

and your 50th year, and the massive

3:48

knees up at the Royal Albert Hall

3:50

in June. Yeah, the 30th anniversary

3:52

of Clueless, the movie, 250th anniversary

3:54

of Jane Austin, Emma, which, you

3:56

know, which is of course the basis

3:58

of Clueless. So it's a nice... Cosmic

4:00

alignment. I think things like that are

4:02

always a good sign. There's a symmetry.

4:05

Well, let's get back to the beginning.

4:07

I'm adopted as well. I didn't know

4:09

that. There's always a pricking up of

4:12

interest, isn't there, when you meet a

4:14

fellow? I'd like you, my experience was

4:16

very much from an incredibly early age

4:19

with adoptive parents who were wonderful and

4:21

who never kept it from us, or

4:23

kind of sprung it on us. It

4:26

was like that for you, I think.

4:28

And yeah, thank you for sharing that.

4:30

I had no idea. Well, I mean,

4:32

given that you've done the TV

4:35

show and you've talked quite widely

4:37

about... getting back in touch with

4:39

your half-sisters and your biological mother

4:41

it makes up quite a big

4:43

part of your biographical kind of

4:45

detail because you've always be very

4:48

comfortable talking about it but it's not

4:50

I mean if you're anything like me

4:52

it's not necessarily the beginning, the middle

4:54

and the end of you. No,

4:56

and it's all it can be,

4:58

it can be confronting, and it

5:00

can be uncomfortable and difficult for

5:02

my family, because they're my family.

5:04

Yes, exactly. And of course, everybody

5:06

gets very excited about your, you

5:08

know, your other life that you

5:10

didn't live and all the details,

5:12

and sometimes that can overshadow your

5:14

actual family, you know, and they

5:16

don't get as much love really

5:18

from a kind of public eye

5:20

point of view. Yes. I had to make

5:23

the decision and it was a conversation I

5:25

had with my record label. I was

5:27

like, do I want to talk about

5:29

it? And I felt I just can't

5:31

really tell my story without talking about

5:33

it because I'm the only musical person

5:35

in my whole family. And I'm

5:38

sure that happens sometimes. But music

5:40

is often hereditary and learn in

5:42

the home. And I grew up

5:44

in a house where we didn't

5:46

listen to music. There was no

5:48

music collection. I was the only

5:50

one playing an instrument. So you are

5:52

going to feel what's correct, what's that?

5:54

Yeah, and it's a huge testament

5:57

to my parents that they recognise

5:59

that. and massively encouraged me, got

6:01

me lessons and you know, encouraged

6:03

me to do something they didn't

6:05

do. So that was a physics lecture.

6:08

Yes. And I'm a primary school teacher.

6:10

So what did you do when other

6:12

people were perhaps have been listening to

6:15

the human league? My dad was

6:17

like quintessential bonkers mad scientist. So

6:19

one of his favorite games, which

6:22

I love. And dad's past night, so

6:24

no one can get him in

6:26

trouble. But he used to take

6:28

me, my big brother, to his

6:30

physics lab every night, so he'd

6:32

be doing experiments all day. Come

6:34

home for dinner, take me and

6:36

Joe, my big brother, into the

6:38

lab. And one of his favorite

6:40

games was using liquid nitrogen from

6:42

a large canister that kind of

6:44

sat on a trolley dolly, like

6:46

a little... triangular dully and he'd

6:48

take the canister off, slush liquid

6:50

nitrogen all the way down his corridor

6:52

and then tell us... Don't touch your

6:55

fingers will burn off and then

6:57

push us down the corridor and

6:59

it was just the most amazing

7:01

experience as a kid. It's just

7:03

like dry ice and bubbles and

7:05

low lighting and then his corridor

7:07

was the only corridor in his

7:09

faculty that needed a new floor. When

7:11

did it kick in then? When did

7:14

you realize that you had a musical

7:16

band? It was kind of from

7:18

the get-go. I got very obsessed

7:20

with my... with the piano, but my music

7:22

too, you know, from the age of

7:25

four, I begged for a piano and

7:27

started getting piano lessons when I was

7:29

four years old. But when did you hear

7:31

music? I mean, the radio or? It would

7:33

have been the radio, it would have been the,

7:35

you know, in the TV? Yeah, yeah, okay.

7:37

Like, I think, you know, television was

7:39

very different when we were growing up

7:42

and... I was, and that we'd have, you

7:44

know, we'd be doing music at nursery

7:46

school. And my nursery teacher remembers me

7:48

desperately trying to work out how to

7:51

play a guitar. And I've got, I've

7:53

got like sheets of me trying to

7:55

draw music before I could write. I'm

7:58

like doing all these little dots. lines

8:00

and I don't even know where

8:02

I saw it but it was

8:04

obviously just calling you know it

8:06

was it was and I don't

8:09

know whether adopted people think more

8:11

about this kind of thing yeah

8:13

but you do start wondering about

8:15

some sort of genetic memory well

8:17

as I found out many many

8:19

years later in 2019 my biological

8:22

father he was Irish was a

8:24

very good singer gosh yeah So

8:26

it's, it's, I'm always quite envious

8:28

of biologically related families who play

8:30

music and sing together. I think

8:32

it's a really, really powerful, very

8:35

ancient feeling harmony that family, that

8:37

related people. can form together. Quite

8:39

a Celtic thing as well, isn't

8:41

it? And they've just got that

8:43

bond of knowing each other so

8:45

well. And so I've always sort

8:47

of been quite envious of that.

8:50

And my sisters do sing, so

8:52

we need to get on it

8:54

and start an acapella group. So

8:56

what else was, what else typified

8:58

home? What was the kind of,

9:00

when you were trying to invent

9:03

your own musical language? Yeah, we

9:05

were very outdoorsy. My mom and

9:07

dad met at... My dad had

9:09

gone to Bangor University in North

9:11

Wales because he was obsessed with

9:13

mountaineering and he was the president

9:16

of the mountaineering club and my

9:18

mom was at teacher training college

9:20

nearby and joined the mountaineering club

9:22

because she loved it. And so

9:24

that was how they met was

9:26

climbing mountains in North Wales. So

9:28

as kids, I mean, never a

9:31

hotel, never a restaurant. We were

9:33

in the Volvo like driving to

9:35

the middle of nowhere in the

9:37

rain, doing some 15-mile hike, eating

9:39

a wet peanut butter and jam

9:41

sandwich it. sandwich and then coming

9:44

home. But it was great and

9:46

we'd always camp. We always went

9:48

camping as well. Which explains presumably

9:50

why your dad, I mean it's

9:52

a very prestigious university anyway, but

9:54

St Andrew's couldn't be better placed

9:57

for these expeditions. Yeah, it's a

9:59

beautiful place. It's a beautiful place.

10:01

to grow up as well. It's

10:03

a very sheltered, sweet town and

10:05

I had a really fun childhood.

10:07

Childhood lasts a long time in

10:10

St. Andrew's. Yes. I've got friends

10:12

in North Berrick who say something

10:14

similar actually. I don't know. Why

10:16

is that? Do you think? Because

10:18

you're probably different now with technology,

10:20

but you are more immersed in

10:22

nature. So you stay stuck for

10:25

longer? Both St Andrew's and North

10:27

Berrick are right on the coast.

10:29

So I always thought when I

10:31

moved to London, it was probably

10:33

about 98 that I moved down

10:35

to London, but I realised that

10:38

my whole kind of worldview was

10:40

often a reflection of very impressive

10:42

nature. I was right next to

10:44

the ocean. The beach in St.

10:46

Andrew's is actually the beach that's

10:48

in Charites of Fire. It's west

10:51

sands. It's this fantastic two mile

10:53

long beach. There's five beaches in

10:55

this little town that was like

10:57

11,000 people when I was growing

10:59

up. A bit bigger now. But

11:01

it's rocks and it's wind and

11:04

it's sand dunes and it's... mountains

11:06

nearby and very, changing vistas every

11:08

minute with the weather, you know.

11:10

And when I got down to

11:12

London, I was thought, God, all

11:14

you can compare yourself to here

11:16

is other people. You're just shoulder

11:19

to shoulder with other people, so

11:21

no wonder, egos getting out of

11:23

control and, you know, self-doubt creeps

11:25

in and... It's very overwhelming and

11:27

I really never got used to

11:29

that. I never felt like a

11:32

kind of that I was built

11:34

for cities. Because it reminds you

11:36

how small you are in a

11:38

way. Being exposed to big nature.

11:40

Well that was the strange thing

11:42

that I always loved that feeling

11:45

of being small in nature. I

11:47

really loved. That's the other thing

11:49

in where I grew up. You

11:51

got the most amazing view of

11:53

the stars every night. It was

11:55

just a show. And then you.

11:58

come down to London it's like

12:00

people who haven't seen them for

12:02

years and years and that's sort

12:04

of like your spiritual reset in

12:06

a lot of ways is understanding

12:08

that the universe is bigger than

12:10

you your smaller problems are probably

12:13

not as big as you think

12:15

they are but it's it's quite

12:17

hard to kind of get that

12:19

into perspective when you're just surrounded

12:21

by people all the time. And

12:23

also because it's probably subconscious. For

12:28

lockdown, you got into writing musicals, but

12:30

I missed the sky. I call myself

12:33

about halfway through, these words, big sky

12:35

in my brain, and I couldn't work

12:37

out why. We were spending a lot

12:39

of time in Norfolk at the time,

12:42

where the beaches are similarly ridiculous. And

12:44

I hadn't had a view that didn't

12:46

have anything in it, except nature, that

12:48

for about six months, there'd be next-door

12:51

neighbor house, or there'd be, just doing

12:53

the radio show from the shed at

12:55

the bottom of the garden, and something

12:57

else, and something else shrinks, doesn't just

13:00

your perspective. very underrated in terms of

13:02

our wellness and talking of which we

13:04

might touch on it. I ended up

13:06

losing my hearing a few years ago

13:09

and one of the things I remember

13:11

reading about that pertains to that is

13:13

a view of a horizon because I

13:15

got very bad vertical when I lost

13:18

my hearing. and one of the things

13:20

that I read about that was helpful

13:22

is having a long-range view of the

13:25

horizon to relate to. And then I

13:27

did a bit more reading about it

13:29

and it has very powerful physiological effects

13:31

being able to see a horizon. It

13:34

kind of defocuses your view for a

13:36

start. You're looking further than you can

13:38

actually see, but it kind of kicks

13:40

in. a sort of more philosophical state

13:43

of mind if you can see into

13:45

the distance and a lot of people

13:47

don't get that you know and it's

13:49

it's something I think that we should

13:52

try and prioritize a bit more is

13:54

just getting out there getting a view.

13:56

I love that. You're safe as well

13:58

because the bigger the view, the more

14:01

your in a lizard knows that there's

14:03

not a threat. I know, right? It's

14:05

really funny that you say that because

14:07

I've got a little PTSD dog that

14:10

I adopted during lockdown called Mini and

14:12

she's a little miniature pincher and I

14:14

took her to the beach. She's scared

14:16

of everything and everyone. And I took

14:19

her to the beach and I've never

14:21

seen joy explode where she could see.

14:23

And she could see nothing was coming

14:25

at her. And she just went wild

14:28

and was just running around us. Well,

14:30

what great metaphor for our state of

14:32

mind when you've got that freedom that

14:35

you know you can move through the

14:37

world without anything coming at you. It

14:39

must have been kind of scary. when

14:41

you realize something was wrong with your

14:44

hearing. But I mean, for anyone, but

14:46

especially for a musician. It was very

14:48

sudden. I'd had a little bit of

14:50

damage in my left ear where I

14:53

couldn't hear very high-pitched things. Like I

14:55

sometimes couldn't hear if the shower was

14:57

on that kind of thing and I

14:59

was struggling a little bit with people

15:02

speaking on that side and I had

15:04

tinnitus at that point as well. And

15:06

then I thought that was that, you

15:08

know, a bit of damage, but obviously

15:11

it was the beginning of it was

15:13

the beginning of it. cracking up completely

15:15

and I was on tour in America

15:17

actually and I woke up on the

15:20

bus took my ear plug out and

15:22

no difference at all. I thought oh

15:24

God I just completely underwater and yeah

15:26

I lost my hearing it doesn't come

15:29

back overnight and still have the tinnitus

15:31

which is annoying. It's like come on

15:33

man gonna take that way. I see

15:35

he's a can of here I really

15:38

don't need that. It was a very

15:40

affirming experience where I think when you

15:42

kind of get hit with a disability

15:45

of any kind, there's a, the mental

15:47

aspect of it is just as important,

15:49

if not more important, of how you

15:51

decide to react to it. And I

15:54

just, I got some advice from specialists

15:56

at the time, they said, look, don't

15:58

hide in your room. to try and

16:00

recover because that's what your body will

16:03

get used to. That will be your

16:05

new normal. So you've got to push

16:07

yourself to live the life that you

16:09

want to live so that your body

16:12

can kind of, you know, acclimatize

16:14

to this new way of being.

16:16

And I was in New York

16:18

recuperating and it was November and

16:20

it had snowed and I was

16:22

in the noisiest city in the

16:24

world with people yelling at each

16:26

other, slipping on the snow. and

16:28

it was extremely unpleasant. But I

16:30

just forced myself. I had to

16:32

like, I remember having to have

16:34

a nap every half hour. I

16:36

was just exhausted. Century exhaustion. I

16:39

was like a baby. I would just

16:41

put my head down in a coffee shop

16:43

and go to sleep. But I'm so glad

16:45

I did it because it was part

16:48

of making a decision. that

16:50

this is not going to hold me back.

16:52

I either push on or I give

16:54

up. I mean, there's no middle ground

16:56

really. Does it affect, I mean, how

16:59

does it affect your relationship with music

17:01

if at all? It does, it does

17:03

affect it. I don't have stereo hearing

17:05

anymore. I'm mono. The tinnitus is annoying

17:08

because I can hear it all the

17:10

time, but I have really learned to

17:12

manage that. And for people listening

17:14

who have tinnitus. they'll probably say,

17:16

how do you do it? How

17:19

do you manage it? Because it

17:21

can really make you depressed

17:23

and get you down. People

17:25

are fascinated by it. I

17:27

don't know why, but it's

17:30

more interesting than a lot

17:32

of other conditions. Yeah, well

17:34

it's neurological. That's the first

17:36

thing that's weird. It's not

17:39

your ear hearing. It's your brain

17:41

filling in a gap, telling me...

17:43

to look after myself because I feel

17:45

like it was a it was it

17:48

was the weakest part of my nervous

17:50

system that gave up because I was

17:52

just burning myself too hard and that's

17:54

what happened and so whenever it's bothering

17:56

me I go oh it's cosmic

17:58

message look after to the rest of your

18:01

body. Like a little alarm. And almost, you

18:03

know, the message I give to myself

18:05

is you're lucky it was just that.

18:07

Some people can't see, some people can't

18:09

hear at all. My little brother was

18:11

born profoundly deaf, so I know what

18:13

it's like. to not have any hearing.

18:15

It was very funny when I told

18:17

down about it. I was like, God,

18:19

I've lost hearing and he just did

18:21

this like tiny little violin thing went,

18:23

oh, poor you. And I was like,

18:25

you're not a musician. Your tennis coach.

18:28

You could have chosen someone better

18:30

to tell. Yeah, I know. It was

18:32

fair enough. I've seen him go through

18:34

it with being completely deaf. But you

18:36

know, I can, at the end of the

18:38

day, I can do everything I want

18:41

to do. It's not holding me

18:43

back and I should, you

18:45

know, clearly, because you're busier

18:47

than ever, and doing lots

18:49

and lots of different things.

18:52

Do you think there might

18:54

be a psychological desire to

18:56

prove to yourself that

18:59

actually this, some of the things

19:01

you've done that would, perhaps

19:03

you wouldn't have felt

19:06

compelled to do if everything

19:08

was just ticking along.

19:10

Yes. What I found, I don't, it's

19:12

my age as well, but what

19:14

I found is just I don't

19:16

feel competitiveness anymore. And it's just

19:18

such a... It's so liberating! It's

19:21

so liberating! Because I still

19:23

clearly have ambition. There's things I

19:25

really want to do, but I

19:27

remember when I was up for

19:29

the Mercury Award and it was

19:31

Anoni, who was Anthony Johnson's at

19:34

the time, and they gave an

19:36

amazing speech and said, this is

19:38

ridiculous, this is like a competition

19:40

between oranges and spoons, which was

19:42

such a beautiful way of talking

19:45

about that. kind of healthy competition

19:47

that you can have between musicians.

19:49

I mean, you know, you probably

19:51

wouldn't have pet signs in the

19:53

white album if the Beatles and

19:55

the Beach Boys weren't kind of being

19:57

ambitious, but this feeling that you're... in

20:00

some sort of race and that you

20:02

can't celebrate someone else because you think

20:04

they're better than you or that they're

20:07

not as good as you. I mean

20:09

all that is just rubbish. When did

20:11

you notice that was diminished? I

20:13

think that was the other really

20:15

good thing about lockdown. I'm able

20:17

to get lots of therapy. Because

20:19

the thing about being a public

20:22

figure and a musician as well

20:24

is that you can't really lose it.

20:26

You know, you've got to keep yourself.

20:28

front facing and in a good position

20:30

to do a show for people who've

20:32

paid to come and see you. They

20:34

don't want to come and see you

20:36

having a really bad Wednesday. And so

20:38

there was a lot of deeper stuff

20:40

that hadn't really tackled just in general.

20:42

And that was great because it just

20:45

meant I could absolutely lose it and

20:47

cry my eyes out for a week

20:49

straight and not worry about it. And

20:51

that was really helpful to be able

20:53

to sort of become vulnerable

20:55

for an extended period of

20:57

time. And that was when, and I'd

20:59

already, you know, dealing with some of

21:02

the fallout from losing my hearing

21:04

at that time as well, but

21:06

going through lots of adoption stuff

21:08

that I'd never really dived into,

21:10

realizing that a lot of my

21:12

inexplicable rage was coming from places

21:15

I didn't realize. And so that,

21:17

I think, all led towards it.

21:19

And my hearing actually was, losing

21:21

my hearing was really helpful in

21:23

terms of tackling stuff that was

21:25

holding me back. Yes, forcing you

21:28

to focus on. Yeah, forcing me

21:30

to... I'm quite spiritual in that

21:32

way that I think things... Yeah, things

21:34

happen for... You can view things

21:36

as happening for a reason. Yes, of

21:39

course. And I find that living that

21:41

way is really enjoyable. And helpful.

21:43

Yeah. My therapist refused to believe that I

21:46

hadn't been more profoundly affected by adoption. And

21:48

then in the end did believe me because

21:50

there was so much else going on I

21:52

was beaten as a kid by teachers and

21:55

stuff like that and that's where my rage

21:57

had come from. But it's all about talking

21:59

to... to the little version of you. Did

22:01

you do a lot of that? Absolutely, I

22:03

love it. I love... Me too. I think

22:06

about that all the time now. I

22:08

recently played a show in the Bayer

22:10

Theatre in St. Andrew's, which is the

22:12

first place I ever went on stage

22:14

when I was seven years old and

22:16

I'd never been on the stage since.

22:18

And I just felt this little version

22:20

of me following me around the

22:22

theatre. I knew all the backstage

22:24

and this was the first time

22:26

I went on stage, enjoyed, enjoyed

22:28

myself, enjoyed myself. and saw that

22:30

the audience enjoyed me enjoying myself

22:32

and that's it. That's why I

22:34

do what I do. That's it.

22:36

I learned it at seven years

22:39

old. That's the only reason is

22:41

that there is communal enjoyment.

22:43

There's communal joy in

22:46

performance. And yeah, I just could

22:48

see this little person, this little

22:50

thing following me around. It was

22:52

amazing. And you think, what would have

22:54

called? What would it happen if I'd

22:57

known this all along? Yeah. You'd have

22:59

been far too well adjusted to have

23:01

become successful. I know. What's that saying?

23:03

What's that saying is when you meet

23:05

a happy person you think what a

23:07

boring child with him must have had.

23:09

It's funny because it's true. Yeah, isn't

23:11

it? Yeah. Well back to childhood

23:13

and again I think as a

23:15

fellow adopty I can I probably

23:18

understand this implicitly more than other

23:20

interviewers mind because you can have

23:22

had a beautiful childhood with wonderful

23:24

parents but you are carrying stuff

23:26

that you didn't know you were

23:28

carrying and you mentioned Dan because

23:30

he was the biological child of

23:32

mom and dad and it came

23:34

along after you. Your older brother

23:36

was adopted from a different biological

23:38

background. Yeah. a bigger impact than

23:40

perhaps you realized at the time because

23:43

it makes you question some of the

23:45

things that Mom and Dad have told you

23:47

about who you are and why you're there.

23:49

Yeah, I mean, I never questioned Mom

23:51

and Dad and they were always very

23:53

open, you know, they were very open

23:56

with us from before we could even

23:58

remember and Dan was a surprise. It

24:00

was this very interesting

24:02

kind of leveling when

24:04

he was born because

24:06

he was born deaf and

24:09

that's basically much harder

24:11

than being adopted. So all eyes

24:14

were on Dan to make sure

24:16

that he was okay. And

24:18

there's a great poet,

24:20

Scottish poet Jackie Kay, and

24:23

she is adopted and wrote about

24:25

adoption and she. When I met

24:27

her, she said, yeah, there's a

24:29

line I wrote and said, there's

24:31

always a windy place. And that

24:33

was just such a beautiful way

24:35

of putting it that you can't,

24:38

there's no point in fighting that.

24:40

It's just going to be in

24:42

your DNA and your makeup that

24:44

you are going to feel abandoned

24:46

at points in your life, even

24:48

if it was, you know it

24:50

was for your best interests.

24:53

And it's actually much more

24:55

interesting. to be curious about it and

24:57

to learn what that's done to you

24:59

and for you, then try and pretend

25:02

it isn't there. And to commune with

25:04

that little person as well, which

25:06

is one of the loveliest things

25:08

you can do. I think also,

25:10

sort of getting, you know, with

25:12

the album turning 20, it's so

25:14

strange having grown-ups coming up to

25:16

me saying I've listened to your

25:19

music my whole life. And I

25:21

think one of the things that's

25:23

beautiful from what you were talking

25:25

about is... really being the adult

25:27

that you wish, being the big

25:30

sister or brother that you wish

25:32

that you had, giving you advice,

25:34

the older person making

25:36

you feel better about the

25:38

things that you were worried

25:40

about when you were young

25:42

that you maybe didn't

25:44

tell anyone about, you

25:47

know. And so to be

25:49

that for other people is

25:51

really beautiful. to go from

25:53

home to an urgent treatment

25:55

center. Mr Williams, please

25:57

come to him? Or a pharmacy?

26:00

So, Plata Sister, see you now. Or if

26:02

needed, stay where you are and get a

26:04

call from a nurse, doctor or paramedic. NHS,

26:06

one, one, one, call, go online or use

26:08

the NHS app to be assessed and directed

26:10

to the right place for you. Let's

26:13

get back to the music. What were

26:15

you performing then when you were seven?

26:17

What was the gig? What was the gig? That

26:19

was a little... The beautiful

26:21

little... The beautiful little...a...a...a...a...a...a beautiful

26:24

little...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a...a And it was

26:26

not like a sort

26:29

of Disney prodigy club.

26:31

It was like there

26:34

was a local dude who I don't

26:36

think we ever met, but he

26:38

was writing original musicals for kids.

26:40

So it was things like the

26:42

railway children. It was like children

26:44

at secondary schools being sent off

26:46

during the war to live with

26:48

other people in the countryside. And

26:50

it was all sorts of kind of quite

26:52

educational subjects that we would do.

26:55

little musicals about. But then, you

26:57

know, I played Nancy in Oliver

26:59

at school, which I love. That

27:01

was one of the musicals that

27:04

I just saw. That's a bit later.

27:06

That would be secondary school. I think

27:08

I was 11 when we did that.

27:10

But I was Nancy and they were

27:12

trying to sort of get me to push

27:14

the shoulder of my dress off and I

27:17

started crying. I was such a tomboy.

27:19

And I was like, absolutely no chance.

27:21

What else were you like? I mean,

27:23

I wasn't very academic. I was

27:25

always into arts. I was good.

27:27

I was good English. I was never,

27:29

I was never particularly

27:31

gifted at math or sciences or

27:34

things like that. Which your dad

27:36

must have found slightly mildly disappointing.

27:38

My dad said one of his

27:40

greatest achievements in life. was me

27:42

getting my GCSE maths. He took

27:44

the credit did he? Yeah, well

27:46

he should, he had to put

27:48

in a lot of extra hours

27:50

for that to happen. We live

27:52

our lives, don't we, fascinated by

27:54

the tension between nature and nurture.

27:56

People like us, in a way

27:58

that other people don't. It's absolutely

28:00

fascinating and I'm you know I'm

28:02

I'm I'm quite a feral person.

28:04

I just like I just you

28:06

know I always proud of myself

28:08

when I look respectable and managed

28:11

to get somewhere on time and

28:13

do what I'm meant to do

28:15

and I just always knew there

28:17

was no chance I was ever

28:19

going to be able to work

28:21

for someone else. I just it

28:23

was never an option. But did

28:25

you enjoy school? I mean, albeit

28:27

that it was regimented, you could

28:29

cope with that level of authority.

28:31

I did, I left early, but

28:33

I, and I got into trouble

28:35

here and there, but I was

28:38

basically a pretty good student and

28:40

I had a good laugh. Not

28:42

fantastic at focusing and things, but

28:44

yeah, I did, I did, I

28:46

did fine. And when did you

28:48

start framing even the fantasy or

28:50

the dream that music could also

28:52

be a job? So it hit

28:54

in hard at 15. Right. hell-bent

28:56

on being an actress. I loved

28:58

being on stage. And as time

29:00

went on, for my zenith moment

29:02

as an actress, I played Anne

29:04

Frank in the diary of Anne

29:07

Frank, which was amazing. It was

29:09

a really, I had to learn

29:11

pages and pages of Anne Frank's

29:13

diary by heart and it was

29:15

a really brilliant experience. And then

29:17

I did what's called Scotia Shoe

29:19

Theatre up in Scotland and I

29:21

ended up playing the part of

29:23

Puck in with some nice dream

29:25

and went down to Stratford. up

29:27

on Avon to work with the

29:29

Royal Shakespeare Company for summer and

29:31

by that time I'd picked up

29:33

guitar and I was like hang

29:36

on a minute I don't want

29:38

to be saying someone else's lines

29:40

and I do not want someone

29:42

telling me what to do and

29:44

so the obvious adjacent art was

29:46

to be a musician and I'd

29:48

met a bunch of really cool

29:50

local musicians in St Andrew's King

29:52

Kriaso being the the the lead

29:54

revel. in that rabble. Had you

29:56

done much writing of your own

29:58

before that? Had you got something

30:00

to set against saying other people's

30:03

words, confidence that yours would be

30:05

interesting enough. Yeah, it's a very

30:07

good question. I, there was a

30:09

lot of bravado involved and I

30:11

was always very, I loved, I

30:13

grew up loving Roldal, loving Dr.

30:15

Zeus, loving Sesame Street, Muppet Show.

30:17

I think the songwriting on those

30:19

shows is fantastic. But particularly reading

30:21

Roldal and Dr. Zeus. This was

30:23

like perfect rhythmic rhymic rhyming. storytelling

30:25

and I was very addicted to

30:27

that perfection of rhythm and I

30:29

would get very annoyed even when

30:32

I was young if people were

30:34

singing songs and they were singing

30:36

them wrong I would sort of

30:38

go around correcting people and and

30:40

I didn't like it if they

30:42

you know if you got a

30:44

birthday card with a rhyme in

30:46

it I didn't like it if

30:48

it had an extra syllable it

30:50

should be there. Yeah, yeah, okay.

30:52

So that was always The rhythm

30:54

was really getting to me and

30:56

I was getting very excited by

30:59

it. And at 15, I'd, you

31:01

know, classical piano trained, not very

31:03

good, not very diligent. And also

31:05

not very inspired. So it wasn't

31:07

something that... That's interesting. I was

31:09

being instructed how to do it.

31:11

And I actually somehow, weirdly managed

31:13

to get... grade eight distinction as

31:15

a flute player. I've still don't,

31:17

I feel like this was like

31:19

some like weird alternate timeline that

31:21

I was on that I managed

31:23

to do that. But then picked

31:25

up the guitar at 15, never

31:28

had any lessons. It was really

31:30

cool teacher at my school called

31:32

Tim, who's the guitar teacher. I

31:34

think he recognized that he should

31:36

just let me borrow a guitar

31:38

and not force me into lessons.

31:40

Yeah. And I'd sung during my

31:42

theatre days, but I'd never had

31:44

any singing lessons. guitar and instantly

31:46

became like an extra limb. It

31:48

just felt like my instrument. I

31:50

taught myself from a little busking

31:52

book and started writing songs and

31:54

singing and so it was really

31:57

great that I got that musical

31:59

theory background which is massively helpful

32:01

for what I'm doing now so

32:03

I can read score I can

32:05

write score I can write an

32:07

arrangement for strings or horns or

32:09

choir or whatever but I never

32:11

had any lessons on guitar and

32:13

vocals and so it's entirely undiluted

32:15

how I play those instruments and

32:17

it's very funny doing we're doing

32:19

some anniversary shows for the for

32:21

the album and I was off

32:24

in Glasgow at the end of

32:26

January doing a couple with my

32:28

friend Roddy Hart he's got a

32:30

band and they learned their album

32:32

and I was like I don't

32:34

know what half the chords are

32:36

I've just literally made them up.

32:38

I really don't know what chords

32:40

I'm playing a lot of the

32:42

time. And so some of them,

32:44

oh you're great guitars, I'm like,

32:46

well yeah, just don't ask me

32:48

to write it down for you

32:50

because I don't actually know what

32:53

I'm doing. Speaking of that, the

32:55

end of the words play, I

32:57

know you didn't do the lyrics

32:59

on Cluellis, but some of that...

33:01

some of that word play is

33:03

absolutely magnificent. Glenn Slater is a

33:05

genius. He's just a genius and

33:07

has won Tony Awards for it.

33:09

He did School Overall Consisture Act

33:11

and many many many other projects

33:13

but Glenn because Glenn brought me

33:15

in after working together on the

33:17

previous projects he basically mentored me

33:20

for about three weeks on that

33:22

project before we he moved on

33:24

but it was absolutely invaluable masterclass

33:26

training from a musical theater genius.

33:28

But I said to him the

33:30

other day, I said, Glenn, you

33:32

are amazing. You've told the story

33:34

of this show in all the

33:36

lyrics and they're so clever. And

33:38

he is another perfectionist so he

33:40

will not let it go. To

33:42

the syllable. I read a bit

33:44

of it. And he'll sometimes say

33:46

to me, you're missing internal rhymes

33:49

in the melody. You need to.

33:51

bring out this this and this

33:53

and I'll be like oh my

33:55

god it all rhymes there as

33:57

well as the rhyming lines exactly

33:59

that and he the thing that's

34:01

almost most amazing about Glenn is

34:03

that he can write like incredible

34:05

solo songs sung by a 16

34:07

year old girl. How do you

34:09

know? He really is brilliant. It's

34:11

just an absolute honour working. I

34:13

know you're going from here to

34:15

rehearsals. Are you drilling the cast?

34:18

Personally at the moment. Drilling the

34:20

cast, drilling the band. Because the

34:22

tightness. Yeah. Well. You know, there's

34:24

an onus on me in that

34:26

they've asked me as an artist

34:28

to come in and write this.

34:30

There's plenty of West End composers

34:32

that they could have asked and

34:34

they've asked someone who writes pop

34:36

and rock music to come and

34:38

write the score for the show.

34:40

And so I'm diligently fighting back

34:42

on any... any moment of the

34:45

show that is feeling like it's

34:47

phoned in. And I was never

34:49

a huge fan of musicals growing

34:51

up because I just found them

34:53

really cheesy. And I've sort of

34:55

realized that the thing that makes

34:57

them feel cheesy to me is

34:59

the band sounds the same every

35:01

single song. You've got a bunch

35:03

of musicians and they're playing so

35:05

they might be playing different sounding

35:07

songs, you know, in terms of

35:09

style. But it's the same musicians

35:11

every time. I really needed with

35:14

this show to bust out of

35:16

that mold and we've got this

35:18

amazing drum kit that's electronic. It

35:20

looks like a real drum kit

35:22

by Roland. And there's 24 different

35:24

sounding drum kits in this show.

35:26

And we've got two keyboards that

35:28

can sound like anything. So they

35:30

are going from sounding like an

35:32

indie grunge band to a Lana

35:34

Morissette, it's just fantastic. And Amy

35:36

Heckeling's... authenticity and when I hear

35:38

about how she fought at the

35:41

time to get it made to

35:43

keep this real the way that

35:45

she wanted it with the language

35:47

that she wanted with the subject

35:49

matter that she wanted I was

35:51

like the least I can do

35:53

is make sure I am proud

35:55

of every single moment of the

35:57

music in the show. And also,

35:59

because I wasn't a big fan

36:01

of musicals, I was like, I

36:03

want to make a show that

36:05

people who think they don't like

36:07

musicals will enjoy. And I want

36:10

all their husbands and little brothers

36:12

and sisters who don't like girly

36:14

stuff to come to this show

36:16

and go, do you know what

36:18

that was brilliant? It was really

36:20

fun and the music was really

36:22

cool. And everyone in it is

36:24

a brilliant singer which doesn't always

36:26

happen in musicals either. You know,

36:28

someone might have been hard for

36:30

their dancing or their acting, but

36:32

they're all, all of which is

36:34

superlative, but everyone who gets a

36:36

solo. Yeah, they're smashing it. Smashes

36:39

it out. And that was it,

36:41

that was definitely a challenge as

36:43

well because actors who come through

36:45

musical theatre training are given quite

36:47

a specific voice training. And it's

36:49

a quite a specific way, a

36:51

very, very articulatediculated, a lot of

36:53

vibrato. And of course a lot

36:55

of that is not conducive to

36:57

rock music or pop music. It's

36:59

a lot more relaxed. It's a

37:01

lot more thrown away. There's stuff

37:03

that's shouted. So Josh, Keelan Macaulay,

37:06

who plays the Paul Rudd character.

37:08

there's a great turnaround in the

37:10

show where he starts off as

37:12

this kind of indie grunge kid

37:14

and has a kind of Green

37:16

Day style Nirvana song and then

37:18

in the second half when he's

37:20

becoming all head up about share

37:22

he flips into this boy band

37:24

and so we really had to

37:26

work with him to get his

37:28

you know his Green Day voice

37:30

so that it's a surprise when

37:32

he sings like Justin Simberley. And

37:35

he is up there. And he

37:37

absolutely. Those notes are high. Yeah,

37:39

he's holding his position for applause

37:41

for a long time after that

37:43

song. It's brilliant. And I'm interested

37:45

in what you said about competition.

37:47

And when you were at your

37:49

most competitive, do you think you

37:51

could have enjoyed helping other people

37:53

perform brilliantly as much as you're

37:55

clearly enjoying it now? And it's

37:57

so interesting when you think about

37:59

ego with performance. and with art

38:02

because it's impossible to do without

38:04

it. You've got to have an

38:06

ego and my God imagine how

38:08

boring it would be if we

38:10

didn't have these outrageous characters in

38:12

music and art and film. The

38:14

possible downside of that ego that

38:16

you have when you're younger that

38:18

gives you the fuel to succeed because

38:20

it's so hard to succeed. It's

38:22

one in a million chance that

38:25

it's going to work. That drive and

38:27

kind of confidence, whether it's real

38:29

or not, I think is probably

38:31

a bit prohibitive of being very

38:33

generous at the same time. Yes,

38:35

exactly. So I've noticed quite

38:37

a lot of people who get to this

38:40

stage where it's just like, it's time to

38:42

give back. Okay. You know, I don't...

38:44

And you're deriving enormous satisfaction, clearly,

38:46

just from the way you were

38:49

talking about that process with... Yeah,

38:51

huge. And I think one of

38:53

the important things with clueless... films

38:55

that came out off the back of that

38:57

movie, but it was very much one of

38:59

the front runners of that genre and

39:02

kind of created that genre really.

39:04

But there's no meanness in it. A

39:06

lot of the other ones have got

39:08

quite kind of, they've got some nasty

39:11

streaks in them and it's enjoyed that

39:13

they're a bit bitchy if I'm allowed

39:15

to say that. But this one, they've

39:18

got such great intentions. Cher is just

39:20

really, I mean she's doing it wrong

39:22

all the time, but she's really trying

39:25

to help other people. And what I

39:27

love to remind people of the

39:29

story is that her mum's died

39:31

when she was tiny and her

39:33

dad's kind of absent. She's basically

39:35

trying to parent herself and we

39:38

can all relate to this, you

39:40

know, effort to try and control

39:42

the world around you to stay sane.

39:44

She's carrying trauma. She's carrying trauma,

39:47

exactly. Tell me about the first

39:49

time you steps onto a stage

39:51

with your guitar. Oh, gosh, that's a good

39:53

question. I don't know. I remember the first

39:55

time I played a song for people and

39:57

it was the end of my Scottish she-

39:59

a summer when I was 15 and

40:02

everybody was meant to do a sketch

40:04

you know and I just didn't want

40:06

to do one. I wanted to play

40:08

a song and that was the first

40:10

time I played a song. It was

40:13

one of my own, my very early

40:15

new songs and it went down well

40:17

so it was a good start. It

40:19

was a positive start. I'm sorry if

40:22

I'd met you at 15 and said

40:24

what do you want to be when

40:26

you grow up it would have depended

40:28

on where we were in the year

40:31

you'd have said an actress but then

40:33

after that summer in Stratford you'd have

40:35

said I would have said a musician

40:37

you wouldn't have said a pop star

40:40

or a rock star or you just

40:42

said I want to be a musician

40:44

yeah I never had any aspirations to

40:46

be famous at all it was absolutely

40:48

I mean I think I wanted to

40:51

be I wanted to be successful for

40:53

sure and I've kept journals since I

40:55

was very young so I have a

40:57

bookcase full of it. It's like a

41:00

backup hard drive so I can just

41:02

go to whatever year and actually read

41:04

what my thought processes were at the

41:06

time and you know I think there's

41:09

a part of me that's maybe a

41:11

bit embarrassed if I wanted to be

41:13

famous or well known but when I

41:15

go when I've gone back and written

41:18

about it and read back over that

41:20

time I really wanted to be successful

41:22

and I think that I knew that

41:24

it was just a baked and side

41:27

effect that if you're successful as a

41:29

musician then people are going to know

41:31

who you are. But it wasn't driving

41:33

me for sure. I wasn't even that

41:35

bothered about making lots of money. My

41:38

mates and events collective in Fife, we

41:40

were all just living in little cottages

41:42

with no heating on the icecoast town

41:44

and just, you know, making bordractic music

41:47

into the night. So what did success

41:49

mean then? What does it does it

41:51

say in the journals? Success was 100%

41:53

not having to have another job. Just

41:56

doing enough. That was it. That was

41:58

the extent of it. I don't want,

42:00

I don't care if I can't buy

42:02

any clothes or can't go on a

42:05

holiday. I just do not want to

42:07

work a job that isn't music. And

42:09

so then we... got well I don't

42:11

want to skip over the year that

42:13

you spent in America because I don't

42:16

know how seminal that was oh my

42:18

god it was so formative yes and

42:20

I actually spent 1979 in California because

42:22

my dad got a sabbatical to ECLA

42:25

so my first memories are California because

42:27

I think it was just such a

42:29

crazy change. Yeah, and just sunshine and

42:31

feel, colors and great flavor. And I

42:34

remember Christmas in LA and they just

42:36

go absolutely nuts, you know, and it's

42:38

so funny because I lived in the

42:40

valley and the houses in the valley

42:43

are covered in snowmen and you know,

42:45

and it's... It's like 25 degrees. But

42:47

the scene in Clulus of the party

42:49

in the valley is literally where I

42:51

used to live when I was a

42:54

kid. The valve. Yeah, the valve. But

42:56

I always had a yearning to get

42:58

back to America. I loved the music,

43:00

I loved the people, I loved the

43:03

landscape and people were very inter-like music

43:05

in a very uninhabited way over there.

43:07

And so I managed to get a

43:09

scholarship when I was 17 to Kent

43:12

School. where apparently Ted Dansen went to

43:14

school. And it was this very posh

43:16

boarding school, but that was where I

43:18

formed my first band. It was where

43:21

I went to live gigs for the

43:23

first time. I'd never seen live shows.

43:25

I think I saw the Water Boys

43:27

climbing through the Student Union toilets in

43:29

St. Andrews, and that was it. But

43:32

you know, I saw Van Morrison, I

43:34

saw fish, I saw Grateful Dead, and

43:36

it was a huge kind of... wide

43:38

screen moment of my life. And also

43:41

adds to the idea that anything's possible?

43:43

Yeah, I mean the American dream, right?

43:45

It was just that there was... This

43:47

is the Happy Campers. The Happy Campers,

43:50

because my pothead guitarist wanted to call

43:52

the band THC and I said that

43:54

we couldn't. Love it. But I, you

43:56

know, I did a 2,000 mile road

43:59

trip with my best friend Amanda, who's

44:01

still one of... my best friends and

44:03

I heard a lot of music for

44:05

the first time. I hadn't really listened

44:07

to a wide catalog of music and

44:10

that was when I first started really

44:12

listening to music. So

44:16

there's almost a decade and a half

44:18

now between this period this formative period

44:21

and I think it's easier to understand

44:23

now that you've told us that the

44:25

the real goal ultimately was just to

44:28

be able to do this and not

44:30

have to do something else but it's

44:32

at the end of the 15 years

44:34

that you become an overnight success. I

44:37

know I always think if as a

44:39

15 year old if someone had stepped

44:41

into my life and said it's going

44:44

to take you another 15 years it's

44:46

going to take your life again before

44:48

it actually happens I definitely still would

44:50

have done it, but I would have

44:53

been quite surprised, I think. But yeah,

44:55

my entire 20s. I mean, my parents

44:57

were just losing their hair. They were

45:00

so worried about me. I'd got a

45:02

good education. I was bright. I was,

45:04

you know, and there was just absolutely

45:06

no Plan B. I was completely adamant.

45:09

And I didn't get my record until

45:11

I was 29. I mean, so I

45:13

mean, you were doing a lot of

45:16

performing. I was basically... doing a little

45:18

bit of odd jobs here and there.

45:20

You've moved to London, I think. I

45:23

didn't move to London until I got

45:25

my publishing deal. So I was in

45:27

Scotland, most of my 20s. So mom

45:29

and dad are just worried. They just

45:32

want you to be secure. They're so

45:34

worried. And also I was hanging out

45:36

with these crazy feral musicians in Fife

45:39

and loving a life of no responsibilities,

45:41

quite frankly. Yes, of course. playing festivals

45:43

and going busking and going on tour

45:45

and getting gigs, but I was still

45:48

very driven to try and get somewhere

45:50

with the music. So I was saving

45:52

up money from busking and little side

45:55

shows to go down to London once

45:57

a month and during the rehearsals for

45:59

Clueless at Regents Park over near Theatre.

46:01

I would walk past the old pub

46:04

on Marlebone High Street, which used to

46:06

be called The Rising Sun. And that's

46:08

where I used to get a kind

46:11

of gig, where the events manager at

46:13

the pub was my friend's brother, and

46:15

he would give us his whole music

46:17

budget because he loved my band. And

46:20

I would go around the corner to

46:22

the Kashmir club, which was quite a

46:24

well-known kind of singer-songwriter haunt, and that's

46:27

actually where I ended up getting signed.

46:29

Gosh. The longer it goes on. the

46:31

more convinced you have to be that

46:33

you're a bit special, that you're a

46:36

bit cut above. Yeah, there's different ways

46:38

of looking at this. The older you

46:40

get, the older you get, the older

46:43

that you get, thinking that it's still

46:45

actually going to happen. Yes, exactly. It

46:47

can look like madness from the outside.

46:50

No doubt about it. I was very

46:52

lucky that I looked young. I mean

46:54

because I was back to playing puck.

46:56

Yeah I was 30 on Jules Holland

46:59

and people thought I was 21. And

47:01

I was never compelled to sort of

47:03

lie about my age because I was

47:06

very proud of it and I think

47:08

that the experience that you gain over

47:10

that time is really important and part

47:12

of your story is a songwriter so

47:15

I don't want to hide that in

47:17

any way. But I had this always

47:19

had this visual in my mind where

47:22

I was always a bit of a

47:24

vicarious mountain climbing through Mom and Dad.

47:26

I was never, I never got into

47:28

it, but I loved, I loved the

47:31

culture around mountaineering. And there's a lot

47:33

of metaphors as well, isn't there? There's

47:35

tons of metaphor and it's just such

47:38

a crazy thing to want to do,

47:40

which is the metaphor for wanting to

47:42

be a musician. And I always imagine

47:44

myself, and you know, from all these

47:47

hikes that I would do with my

47:49

parents when I was younger, of hiking

47:51

along this vertigious, single-person path along the

47:54

edge of a mountain, and you could

47:56

fall off either side. And as I'm

47:58

getting older, these young... sprightly,

48:01

mountaineers are coming up to the

48:03

path each side of me and

48:05

trying to take my place. And

48:07

I would always say to myself,

48:09

yeah, they might have the energy, but

48:11

I've got the experience and I've been

48:13

up here a long time now and

48:16

I know what the dangers are and

48:18

I know what to look out for

48:20

and I know the direction I'm going

48:22

in. Okay. And so I've got the

48:25

experience up here and they

48:27

haven't and so use that. and

48:29

just follow your gut, you know what

48:31

you're doing. And I don't know, I mean

48:34

I look back at, honestly, I don't know

48:36

how I had the, had the resilience to

48:38

keep persevering at it. And how close

48:40

did you come to knocking it on the

48:43

head? Weirdly, the time I remember knocking,

48:45

nearly wanting to knock it on the

48:47

head was when I did move to

48:49

London. And I got my publishing deal

48:51

first as a writer, under the very

48:53

good advice of a mentor, Bobby Heatley

48:55

from Edinburgh, who'd said, get signed as

48:58

a writer first because the record business

49:00

is brutal. And I did that and

49:02

it was good advice. But I remember

49:04

I'd moved to Harlsden. I couldn't get

49:07

a record deal. So I had my

49:09

publishing deal. I desperately wanted to put

49:11

a record deal. Put a record out

49:13

and I couldn't get a record company

49:16

interested. And I remember walking home from

49:18

Williston Junction and I walked past the

49:20

Garden Center and I just thought, I

49:22

think I might just want to get

49:25

a job at the Garden Center. Horticulturalism.

49:28

Yeah. And just do landscaping or something.

49:30

Like do I really want to do

49:32

this. And I've certainly had that thought

49:34

several times. over the last 20

49:36

years, for sure. Well, except now

49:38

you're doing it from the luxury

49:41

of having cracked it and thinking

49:43

maybe I'll do something else as

49:45

opposed to... Yeah, believe me, James,

49:47

it still happens. I still just

49:50

go, God, this is brutal. And it's,

49:52

you know, it's never... The problem

49:54

with being ambitious, is that

49:56

you live life ambitiously. There's

49:59

an amazing... I want to put this

50:01

musical in which means I'm going

50:03

to be in financial jeopardy.

50:05

I'm making decisions. I'm always

50:08

doing things that are putting

50:10

me in financial jeopardy. I'm

50:12

making decisions. I want to

50:14

make this album. I want to work

50:16

with this person. I want to put

50:18

this musical in which means I'm going

50:21

to be in London for three months

50:23

and I can't work for three, you

50:25

know, I can't do gigs for three

50:28

months. I found myself

50:30

constantly pushing the

50:32

boundary of comfort, even

50:34

though the idea of

50:36

actually staying in my

50:38

nice house and not

50:40

doing much is great.

50:42

It rarely happens. So let's

50:44

see. Let's see if that does

50:47

actually ever happen. I want to

50:49

learn how to do ceramics. I

50:51

want a pottery teacher. Like, when

50:53

am I going to have the time?

50:55

There's bags of time. The next gig

50:57

we should say, if I haven't already,

51:00

is it the Albert Hall on June

51:02

the... 23rd, which is my 50th birthday?

51:04

It's going to be quite the night.

51:06

It's going to be quite a party.

51:09

When you got the record deal.

51:11

I didn't know that. Yeah. So

51:13

Mirically got any money, isn't it?

51:15

I know, it was a very, it

51:17

was a, it was a, it was

51:20

a bit of a nail biter because

51:22

I couldn't get a deal and relentless

51:24

records had heard me a year before

51:26

and they'd said, look, this is

51:29

what we can afford. We love

51:31

you. Tell us when you're ready,

51:33

we're going to be here. Regardless

51:35

of what goes on. And in the end,

51:37

I was like, do you know what? and

51:39

this was the final roll of the

51:42

dice really absolutely you've got obviously you

51:44

know a lifetime if you start from

51:46

15 you've got a lifetime of material

51:48

to choose yeah you start putting the

51:50

album together I to the telescope how

51:52

important you alluded to it briefly how

51:54

important was that Jules Holland appearance it

51:56

was everything that changed everything did it

51:58

yeah and I don't have any quams with

52:01

someone calling it an overnight

52:03

success despite all of that

52:06

time before because that's literally

52:08

what happened it shot me out of

52:10

a human cannon yeah and why do

52:13

you think you must have given

52:15

it some thought what do you

52:17

think what planets aligned that night

52:19

I think I was blissfully

52:22

unaware of how impactful

52:24

it would be having people see what

52:26

I did, not just hear the song.

52:28

And I'd been using this loop pedal,

52:30

I'd come up with the loop pedal

52:33

idea with a friend of mine, he

52:35

was a sound engineer, and I was

52:37

saying I'm so bored of playing these

52:40

open-mite nights on my own, I feel

52:42

like Phoebe from Friends, singing Smelly Cat.

52:44

It's so depressing and I need the

52:46

rhythm in my music. And he had

52:49

this little pedal and we mocked about

52:51

it. guitars and maybe loops and vocals.

52:53

But my Eureka moment was I

52:56

was like, surely if I just

52:58

whack my guitar, it should sound

53:00

like a drum kit. And I

53:02

did it and it sounded terrible.

53:04

And so me and Moshe, my

53:06

friend, sort of did a little

53:08

EQing and used some gadgets and

53:11

finally got it sounding like a

53:13

drumbeat. And I'd never seen anyone

53:15

do that before. So that was really

53:18

exciting, pioneering something.

53:20

And it's just one of those

53:22

magic moments where you're the person

53:24

who took that to the masses.

53:26

And then it was just this

53:28

crazy situation of a 24 hours

53:31

notice to go on the show

53:33

because Naz the rapper had pulled

53:35

out and did I want to

53:37

go on? I was like, yes,

53:39

of course. Blackhorse wasn't on the

53:41

record. It was in the bag

53:43

I thought for record too. And

53:45

my label boss said you should

53:47

definitely play that. woo-hoo weird horse

53:49

song. And I was like, are you

53:51

sure? We haven't recorded it and

53:53

it's not on the record. He's

53:55

like, trust me, just play it.

53:57

And then I'm on with the

53:59

Q. Anita Baker Jackson Brown and

54:02

I win the viewers poll for

54:04

the night and I was running

54:06

my own website at the time

54:08

and getting like five emails a

54:10

day and I woke up to

54:12

like a thousand emails from like

54:15

amazing emails from like like

54:17

old punks going all my punk

54:19

mates would be really embarrassing would

54:21

take the make out of me

54:23

for emailing you but I love

54:25

what you did and so I

54:28

think seeing a Probably seeing a

54:30

girl with some tech was unusual.

54:32

Hearing that tech was extremely fresh

54:34

and people hadn't in general really

54:37

ever seen that before. Me not

54:39

really thinking it was a big deal

54:41

because I'd been playing it in coffee

54:43

shops and no one really... So you've

54:46

got that, the thing you couldn't do? Yeah,

54:48

I was pretty relaxed about it

54:50

and wasn't like... Yes, what I've

54:52

got. Yeah, and I was very... I was

54:54

very kind of... I was very sweet. I

54:56

was very sweet. I was really

54:59

still an 18-year-old when I was

55:01

29. I was very young at

55:03

heart and hadn't lived a life

55:05

of responsibilities. I've just been a

55:08

kind of troubadour trying to get

55:10

somewhere. So I was giving off

55:12

a very naive energy doing it.

55:15

And I think just the package

55:17

of that was just a

55:19

winner to get people's attention.

55:21

And YouTube had just... It

55:23

was really the advent of

55:25

YouTube and so it was

55:28

one of the first viral

55:30

videos as well because it

55:32

hadn't really been happening

55:34

that much. And the

55:37

utter authenticity as well. After

55:39

you got shot out of that

55:41

cannon, when did your feet

55:43

first touch the ground

55:46

subsequently? I honestly would

55:48

say 2012. Seriously, when

55:50

my dad died. and

55:52

I just, I just, there

55:55

was a very strange

55:57

feeling of being

56:00

disconnected from what had

56:02

always been a very

56:05

natural connection to whatever

56:07

universe source, whatever you

56:09

want to call it.

56:11

I'd become very preoccupied with

56:13

career and identity as Katie

56:15

Tunstall, the musician, and dad

56:17

passed, I realized I'd married

56:19

the wrong person and I

56:21

just thought, oh my God,

56:23

I just don't know who

56:25

I am. extraneous life with

56:27

this outside world has become

56:29

everything that I am and

56:31

I was thinking to myself

56:33

what happens if I can't

56:35

play guitar and I can't

56:37

sing I don't actually know

56:39

who I am anymore and

56:41

it just prompted a massive reset

56:44

and that was when I basically

56:46

sold everything I owned got divorced

56:48

moved to America and sort of

56:50

rebuilt really and it was a

56:52

extraordinary and profound time in my

56:55

life and it really felt like

56:57

a crossroads where I could have

56:59

just band-aided everything and carried on

57:01

and ended up probably a bit

57:03

bitter and you know not very happy

57:05

and actually where I went was just so

57:07

much more exciting and now I just like

57:10

I have no idea what's going to happen

57:12

next and it's the best. Which leads

57:14

me to my final question. I don't

57:16

know why the word relish kept popping

57:18

into my mind. then, well do you

57:20

want to do things with relish rather

57:22

than just because that's what you've been

57:24

doing for ages? There's a lot of relish

57:26

in your life. There's tons of, I love

57:29

a bit of relish on a burger. Yes,

57:31

but I think, you know, when I think

57:33

back to that first record, it was entirely

57:35

from passion. It was entirely from, from how...

57:38

having to say something. It wasn't because

57:40

I wanted to make a record, it

57:42

was because I had to make a

57:44

record. And I would say that to

57:46

any young person making music. What do

57:48

you have to make? What do you

57:50

have to say? Don't say it because

57:52

you think it's cool or because you

57:54

think it's fashionable. What do you need

57:56

to say? Because that's your legacy in

57:59

this physical. world is what

58:01

are you leaving? Leave something

58:03

really as meaningful as possible.

58:05

And I loved what Patty

58:07

Smith said about music as

58:09

well, which even if you're

58:11

writing something negative, it can

58:13

have a positive force. And

58:15

sad songs are amazing magic.

58:17

It's like it's the ultimate

58:19

turning turns into gold, rolling

58:21

it in glitter, that you can

58:24

take the worst situation and turn

58:26

it into something that's so...

58:28

powerful and helpful

58:30

for other people

58:32

not just you. And so

58:35

I think I remembered,

58:37

ah right, the success

58:39

and the reward does

58:41

not come from trying

58:44

to be successful or

58:47

trying to achieve rewards.

58:49

It comes from what

58:52

you really really want

58:55

to do,

58:58

what makes

59:00

you really

59:03

buzz. Thank

59:06

you

59:10

so

59:16

This is a Global Player

59:18

original podcast.