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This is a global

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player original podcast.

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Hello and welcome

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to Full Disclosure,

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a podcast project

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that exists entirely

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to let me spend

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more time with interesting

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people than would ever

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be available on the

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radio. Zoe Lyons, welcome.

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Thank you very much, lovely. Jip for

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having more men and women on the

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podcast, which is as if it's somehow

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by design or as if it's, you

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know, somehow deliberate. I spent my life

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avoiding women. Do you think, and I

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was trying to conjure up an answer

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for some halfway on social media the

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other day, do you think that perhaps

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women are less happy talking about

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themselves than men? God, I thought

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I'd have thought the reverse is opposite. Yeah,

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well, it must be personal then, it

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must be personal, yeah. It's just

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personally, you've snubbed us, James,

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that's what's happening, yeah. All the

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other way round, people just keep saying no,

1:04

perhaps, I don't know. No, I don't, I

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mean... Any performer likes talking

1:08

about themselves. That's what I

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thought. That's what I thought. That's what

1:12

I thought. Get out of the way

1:14

early because it's praying on my mind.

1:16

So you're comfortable, as indeed you'll stand

1:19

up a test. Nothing's really off limits

1:21

for you, is it? Not really. Not

1:23

really. But then I'm not really a

1:25

cutting edge comic, I wouldn't say. I'm

1:27

fairly gentle, I think. So, um... My worst

1:30

nightmare is when I turn out to a

1:32

gig and they say, rip it into this

1:34

lot, they'll love it. I'm like, oh

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God, you've put the wrong person. Oh

1:38

God, no! Can't we all just have

1:40

a jolly chat? Yeah. It was

1:42

a prophetic childhood. Was it? Wasn't

1:45

it? Peripatetic. You've moved around a lot.

1:47

Oh, is that what that means? Oh, yes. There

1:49

you go. Thank you. That's lovely. I'm listening that

1:51

learning. It's a great word, that's one of my

1:53

favorite words. I've never heard that word before. Well,

1:55

I've probably got it wrong now. Go

1:58

on, peripatetic. There'll be peripatetic. Oh, I

2:00

like that. It's a great word. That's

2:02

now going on my posters. Yeah,

2:04

from that one. Yeah. Parapatetic.

2:06

Yeah. Well, hang on, let's

2:09

do that again. It was

2:11

a parapatetic child. It was

2:13

an absolutely parapatetic child.

2:15

There was all over the

2:17

place, mate. Why? Just because

2:19

of circumstance of parents moving

2:21

about. So my... dad is

2:23

Irish, my mom is English,

2:25

they were living in Wales

2:27

when I was born and

2:29

then from there they moved

2:32

back to Ireland, so I grew

2:34

up in Ireland, pretty rural

2:36

Ireland in the 70s, which

2:38

was fun. What age were you

2:40

when you moved back? When we

2:42

moved to Ireland, I was

2:44

about six months old, so

2:47

really... No, no, I didn't

2:49

make the choir. Okay. Royal

2:51

Island in the 70s for

2:53

your formative years would be

2:55

quite a... Dollar's dishwater, I

2:58

think the expression probably is.

3:00

I remember everything being

3:02

grey. Absolutely everything was grey.

3:04

Like, I don't think I

3:06

saw colour until I was about

3:08

five years old. Food especially. Oh

3:10

my God, yeah. Everything would have

3:13

been... There was a paint they

3:15

used in Ireland on... Mostly

3:17

sort of schools and hospitals

3:20

and... I'm going to say washed

3:22

out shitty green. Do you know

3:24

what I mean? The color of

3:26

Irish too. It's color of Irish

3:29

too. It's sort of blended into

3:31

the landscape and to the sky.

3:33

So it meant there was no

3:35

very sharp definition about anything in

3:38

Ireland in the 70s. It was,

3:40

um, but then again, I guess

3:42

I'm quite lucky to have grown

3:44

up in that environment. It

3:46

was very gentle. Yeah, really

3:49

gentle. I know my

3:51

mom was bored shitless.

3:53

Right. Yeah. She'd have

3:56

been like mid-20s and

3:58

stuck in it. bungalow

4:00

on a hill overlooking the sea

4:02

with the faint sound of barons

4:04

in the background so she'd have

4:07

been absolutely bored out of her mind.

4:09

Did she work as a nurse in Ireland?

4:11

No she didn't work while I was there.

4:13

She did that later in life so yeah

4:15

she should have been... She had nothing. Have

4:18

you got siblings? I've got a

4:20

younger brother. So she just had

4:22

responsibility for the two of you.

4:24

Yeah, that was it. Keeping house.

4:26

That was a massive Irish wool found.

4:28

Yes, yeah, it pops up quite a

4:30

lot in your eyes. Might as

4:32

a virus wolf man? Yeah, because

4:34

he was quite a feature. He

4:37

was the second biggest dog in

4:39

Ireland. How'd you know? Somebody

4:41

measured him. They didn't measure all

4:43

the other dogs. All of them.

4:45

All of the dogs got them.

4:47

There was like a quote on

4:49

the vegetable. Because because the woman

4:52

that my mom got him off

4:54

used to show him and they'd

4:56

be measured. And there can't be

4:58

that many at the time. What

5:00

sort of child were you, sorry?

5:02

I think reasonably happy. Yes.

5:04

But moderately lonely. So you

5:07

didn't like, when you say rural,

5:09

could you walk to friends' houses

5:11

and stuff like that? I had my

5:13

best friend next door Robert.

5:16

Right. And he was my only

5:18

neighbour and we would play together.

5:20

But that was it. I had

5:22

an imaginary friend for

5:24

most of my childhood called

5:26

Boy. What would you do together?

5:28

Me and boy. Yes. Apparently I

5:30

used to blame him for anything

5:33

that I'd actually done. That's nice.

5:35

So we're in the bed, that

5:37

was boy breaking something, that would

5:39

have been boy, and we'd have long

5:41

discussions together. I think my mum

5:43

did mention at one point that

5:45

she got a little bit worried

5:48

because I'd spend a lot of

5:50

time with boy. And you had an

5:52

idea. didn't grow out of it as

5:54

quickly as... Probably not when... I can't

5:56

remember when boy left probably... probably

5:58

when I was about six. school, we

6:00

should start at primary school, what

6:02

was that like? I hate, I always

6:04

hated school. Really? Always. Completely

6:06

hated it. I hated it

6:09

from day one. Because you were

6:11

living in your own head so much with

6:13

boy? Probably, and you knew that from, I

6:15

got a mate who went on day one

6:17

and he came up at the end to

6:20

the teacher with all his books and went,

6:22

thank you very much, I won't be coming

6:24

back. It was great, so you were a

6:26

bit like that, except you knew that you

6:29

had no choice in the back window.

6:31

And I used to cry every day.

6:33

From our back window, you could see

6:35

the school bus coming up the hill,

6:37

and I'd stand at the back window

6:39

and cry every... It must have been

6:42

horrible for my mom, because you know...

6:44

I'd be like, oh, every girl! And

6:46

they'd see the yellow school bus coming

6:48

up the hill, and then around the

6:50

corner, and then I'd go to the... I

6:53

suppose it didn't... winds coming off

6:55

the sea and again just

6:57

gray gray this isn't dumb more

6:59

east in county Waterford yeah I

7:01

mean did you stick out did

7:03

you have an accent that I

7:05

mean do you know because I

7:07

had an Irish accent at

7:09

that point I just I just

7:11

remember turning up on day one

7:13

I had a little blue suitcase

7:15

and there were two classes in

7:17

one room Like one half of the class

7:19

was one year. It's a different age, isn't

7:22

it? Right on the cusp of a generation

7:24

or shift. And one half of the class

7:26

was another year. Never liked it. Never liked

7:28

it. We bullied. Not at that school. Or

7:30

the next one in Tipperary. Or when

7:32

you got to Glasgow. No, it was

7:34

Glasgow. I don't want to jump ahead.

7:36

So I like some of the stuff

7:38

you've said about it not being the

7:40

case that people who go into comedy

7:42

were necessarily the class clowns. That's not.

7:44

No, I was the class introvert. Were you?

7:47

Yeah, completely. I certainly didn't stand

7:49

out in primary school. And then

7:51

when we went to Tipperary, that

7:53

again, that was the second primary

7:55

primary primary school I went to

7:57

where I was taught by nuns.

7:59

Um. There were no class clowns,

8:01

I remember it. Wasn't permitted.

8:03

You were terrified of them.

8:05

Well, they're violent. We're almost

8:08

exactly the same age. When's your

8:10

birthday? 71. 3rd of October, 71. October, so

8:12

on January 72. So, yeah. So, I had

8:14

nuns. until the age of seven who were

8:16

mildly and formerly violent it would be very

8:19

official like they wouldn't just attack you they'd

8:21

warn you in advance yeah you'd get the

8:23

and then you'd get a fruit polo afterwards

8:25

my sister Catherine yeah so they hit you

8:27

with the ruler on that and I was

8:30

the only boy this is quite it's supposed

8:32

to be me interviewing you I was the

8:34

only boy in the junior school because I

8:36

couldn't go to my next school I was

8:38

ahead of myself because my mom wanted me

8:40

out of the house when I was three instead

8:42

of four and and and and so I got

8:45

quite a lot of trouble from the

8:47

nuns and they give you a fruit

8:49

polo. So by the time I was

8:51

leaving, because they never hit you very

8:53

hard, I was getting hit every day

8:55

and getting just for the fruit polo.

8:57

Yes, but there wasn't violence from the

8:59

nuns towards you in your classroom. It

9:01

could have been, the generations correct. Yeah,

9:03

I do have a very strong image

9:05

of the Mother Superior coming down the

9:07

corridor and the way that... the breeze

9:09

would catch a habit and sort

9:12

of fly out like a sort

9:14

of mammoth bat and that image

9:16

stays with you for a long

9:18

time. The other thing that was

9:20

very Orwellian was that every classroom

9:23

that I was in in

9:25

Tipperary had an intercom in it

9:27

and at noon would all do

9:29

the rosary and it would come

9:32

through the intercom from the head

9:34

nun from her office and the head

9:36

nun. head honcho and yeah and I

9:38

remember even as a kid going this

9:40

feels slightly weird it's a bit North

9:42

Korean yes well you wouldn't have thought

9:44

that so I'm struck by there's a kind

9:47

of absence of root so you should theoretically

9:49

if you're lonely at home you should look

9:51

forward to school because you get to hang

9:54

out with lots of people but you didn't

9:56

you didn't and then you got moved around

9:58

so any chance of making connections would

10:00

have been scuppered because two primary

10:02

schools is quite rare and then

10:04

off to a completely different one.

10:06

I had three primary schools because I

10:09

went from Tipperary to Epsom to another

10:11

primary school. And was this your dad's

10:13

work? Was this your dad's work? Was

10:15

this your dad's work as a chemical

10:17

engineer? Yeah moved about. Was he parapetetic

10:19

by nature? I mean did he leave

10:21

did he move jobs deliberately? Yeah but my

10:23

dad emigrated from Ireland when he was 18

10:25

on his own over to... to London, then

10:28

went to university in Loughborough.

10:30

So, he was sort of

10:32

used to it, I guess. Yeah. And

10:34

in between all of that, we had

10:36

a little spell in America as well.

10:38

That's when I saw colour for the

10:41

first time. So about four or five

10:43

years old, we went and lived in

10:45

New Jersey for a bit. And I

10:47

remember getting off the plane and the

10:49

sky was blue. Never seen it before.

10:51

And it was like, oh my.

10:53

It was like that film technical,

10:56

it was like, wow, this is

10:58

what things are supposed to look

11:00

like. And it was quite an

11:02

interesting time because it was really

11:04

happy. It was really happy

11:06

because America was sort of

11:08

a dream at that age

11:10

in the 70s. It was

11:12

a far away land of

11:14

wonder and would-paddled cars and

11:16

sweets that you couldn't get

11:18

in, certainly in Ireland. sunshine,

11:20

heat. And why such a brief

11:23

sejourn? He was there twice,

11:25

again just with work, just

11:27

projects, yeah. So it's oddly

11:29

cosmopolitan and parochial, isn't it?

11:32

So you moved around a

11:34

lot, but you're... Yeah. Your

11:36

life wasn't, apart from the Little American

11:38

Adventures, it wasn't very exciting at all.

11:41

You were kind of living the same

11:43

life just in different places. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

11:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Until we moved to Glasgow,

11:47

so then sort of at that age, yeah,

11:50

my parents split up. When you were 10. Yeah,

11:52

my... Was that a shock? Yeah. Huge, you didn't see

11:54

it coming when you're 10? I don't know if

11:56

you do. I don't, I can't really remember,

11:58

I can't really remember. but possibly...

12:01

How old were you when you moved to

12:03

Glasgow? Eleven. Okay, so, ah,

12:05

okay. Well, were there no saving

12:07

graces at Primary School? Were

12:09

there no, like, subjects you

12:11

enjoyed or teachers who took

12:13

you under their wing or

12:15

friendships that you forged? All I

12:18

remember from Primary School in

12:20

Epsom is the awful bottles

12:22

of warm milk that you were

12:24

made to drink every day. And

12:26

Margaret, they actually got rid of

12:28

those, didn't she? Yeah, but I

12:30

was quite pleased about that. And

12:32

she gets quite a tough press,

12:34

I thought. She does, but actually,

12:36

from my point of view, I was

12:38

quite pleased with that decision. No,

12:41

I wasn't madly unhappy at primary

12:43

school in Epson, but I wasn't

12:45

madly happy. Okay. I never was

12:47

at school. Just never was. What do

12:50

you think it was about school that

12:52

turned you off so much? Not

12:55

particularly academic. I always had

12:57

massive panic attacks when it came

12:59

to my turn to reading out

13:01

in class. So I hated it.

13:03

You would? Yeah. Were there books at

13:05

home? Much at home by way of

13:07

books. Only if I was forced

13:10

to read. Okay. Because I love

13:12

reading now. But it wasn't my own

13:14

pace and my own time. No. It

13:16

wasn't a thing done from a place

13:19

of love. No. Place of loving books.

13:21

No. I always felt stupid. So

13:23

it's a... That I've always struggled

13:26

with at school. Before we get

13:28

to the divorce, you've described your

13:30

dad as an eccentric character. I've been

13:32

always slightly wary of reading too much

13:35

into other people's stories because you don't

13:37

know how much they've shared or indeed

13:39

how accurate. reports are, but it does

13:42

seem strange that your mom and dad

13:44

ended up together reading about... But isn't

13:46

it strange that anybody ends up together?

13:48

Well it's love. It's love and romance, isn't

13:51

it? It's love and romance in your 20s.

13:53

Yes, fair enough. And you know, then you get

13:55

older and you look at your parents and you

13:57

go, you were once in your 20s, really naive.

13:59

And you did... have the benefit or

14:01

the luxury of therapy because you

14:03

didn't even have emotions. No, we

14:06

had emotions in the 70s?

14:08

No, I guess not. Yeah.

14:10

And the eccentricity manifested itself

14:12

how? How would I describe? That

14:15

is like a sort of Peter

14:17

Pan character. Even now he's 82

14:19

and absolutely, he's currently unwell in

14:21

hospital and I'm going to buy

14:24

him some slippers and he doesn't

14:26

want them because he's not an

14:28

old man. Fair enough. And you're

14:30

like, oh wonder what age that

14:32

sort of manifests himself. Yeah, is

14:35

that what it is, keeps in. But

14:37

he's always been, he's just

14:39

slightly eccentric. He's... I read

14:41

that he'd never seen you perform.

14:43

He's seen me in a play. Right. But

14:45

he's never seen your stand-up?

14:47

No. He wouldn't get it.

14:50

Comedy generally or just yours? Oh

14:52

no. He does get comedy. We

14:54

had common links that we enjoy.

14:56

Growing up we used to watch

14:58

the Pink Panther movies together.

15:00

We loved... So slapstick. Slapstick.

15:03

Quite childish. Yeah. You know,

15:05

Pink Panther movies. Absolutely brilliant.

15:07

My dad can't think. He's

15:10

very literal and he's thinking.

15:12

So anything. Yeah. But quite...

15:14

I think these days you'd

15:16

probably go probably on some

15:18

form of a spectrum. Got it,

15:21

yes. And it took me a long

15:23

time to realise that, a long

15:25

time to realise that, a long time

15:27

to realise that, because growing

15:29

up you just feel that

15:32

somebody's being willfully dismissive of

15:34

you. But then it's only

15:36

when you're older that you

15:38

go, oh, you struggle with

15:41

some form of emotions and

15:43

empathy and... I

15:45

guess my dad would have, he's not,

15:47

it's not sort of, it's not

15:49

a narcissism, but it's maybe a

15:51

main character syndrome. So it's, it's,

15:54

he has difficulty sometimes seeing the other

15:56

side of a beach ball if

15:58

you know what I mean. I do. And as

16:00

a kid that can be very hurtful,

16:02

but it's only as an adult that

16:04

you go, oh, I see what's happening here,

16:06

but it took a long time for me

16:08

too. to sort of address that. Just

16:11

a language of emotion. It would be

16:13

like expecting him to be able to

16:15

speak Sir Bo Crowa or something like

16:17

that. Yeah, yeah, okay. I would be

16:19

tough for a kid. Yeah, because you

16:21

expect that level of attention and that

16:23

absorption, but you got it from your

16:25

mom. I got it to a degree

16:27

from my mother. Unfortunately, my mother married

16:29

a man who I did not get

16:31

on with. and so that presented us

16:33

all the challenges. This is when you're

16:36

in Glasgow. You moved to Glasgow to

16:38

be with your mum's new husband and

16:40

the Scottish stepfather. So that's quite quick

16:43

from the divorce to the remarriage. Yeah.

16:45

There was a, I'm going to say, an overlap.

16:47

Okay, I didn't want to ask. Yeah. Which

16:49

your dad would have really struggled with,

16:51

I imagine, or not. Or just take

16:53

it as a sort of scientific equation

16:55

that has provided an answer. He wasn't

16:57

expecting it. Yeah, I think he did

17:00

struggle with it. He really did struggle

17:02

to see why my mother would leave

17:04

him, but then he struggled to see.

17:07

his own behaviors. Okay. And it's, you

17:09

know, nowadays, I've been through therapy, my

17:11

wife's been through therapy, most of my

17:14

friends have been through therapy, and

17:16

you go, how grateful I am

17:18

to have the opportunity to be able

17:21

to explore myself. Yes,

17:23

how liberating it is. Yeah, and

17:25

it is a, it's, I'm very,

17:27

I'm very grateful for that chance

17:29

of being able to at least

17:31

try and be a better person or...

17:33

get to grips with my own, you

17:35

know, inadequacies and try

17:38

and work around them. But like

17:40

I say, our parents' generation didn't

17:42

have that. It just wasn't a

17:44

thing. They wouldn't have known

17:46

what the word was. So there's

17:49

an awful, you've crammed an awful

17:51

lot into your first 11 years

17:53

in a way, despite, you

17:55

know, sort of describing it

17:57

originally as being essentially happy.

18:00

Other thing that struck me with regard

18:02

to our shared age was that we

18:04

didn't really meet divorced people in

18:06

1981. No, I remember feeling horrible shame.

18:08

Yeah. I remember being at school, like

18:11

my mum had told me the night

18:13

before and it was like, just this

18:15

awful physical feeling of like your world

18:17

dropping out. You're like, oh my God.

18:20

And I remember sitting in the back

18:22

of class, must have been 10 or 11.

18:24

I wonder if everybody knows. I

18:26

wonder if everybody knows. My life

18:29

will never be the same again.

18:31

And I suppose that was my

18:33

first sort of real exposure to

18:36

stress. Yeah. That feeling of, oh

18:38

God, my world's falling apart. I

18:40

don't know how it's going to

18:42

be. And then my stepfather

18:44

came on the scene. And yeah, we

18:47

had a tricky relationship. He was

18:49

a tricky man. He was a

18:51

very underdeveloped. He was very

18:53

emotionally immature. Did he get on all

18:56

right with your brother or was there tension

18:58

there as well? No, same. It was fine. We...

19:00

You have to. You have to tick along, don't

19:02

you? But yeah. But no, I went

19:04

through real periods of... Absolutely hating him.

19:06

Where was the joy then growing up?

19:08

When did you have your moments of

19:11

being transported and being joyous? My dad

19:13

moved to Aberdeen after we moved to

19:15

Glasgow because he was working for

19:17

an oil company at that point.

19:19

And so we'd spend every second

19:21

weekend there and we would go

19:23

hill walking and skiing and that's what

19:26

I love doing. That was real joy.

19:28

And that's always been a, that's, I'm

19:30

forever grateful to my father for giving

19:32

us that. Like I'm never happier than

19:35

when I'm out in nature or with

19:37

animals or... And that was the first

19:39

time you discovered that at that period.

19:41

Yeah, I suppose so, yeah. Yeah, out in

19:43

the hills. I'm so, I feel, again, just

19:46

so, so lucky to have grown up walking

19:48

around the hills in Scotland. It

19:50

was beautiful. Yeah. And

19:52

secondary school was worse than

19:54

primary school? But secondary school

19:56

was worse than primary school?

19:58

Yeah, it was. Because I turned

20:01

up at secondary school in Glasgow. By

20:03

that point I had an English accent.

20:05

I got bullied horribly. I'd never been

20:07

picked out like that before. It's quite

20:09

alarming. More than alarming. It must

20:11

have been absolutely awful for you. It

20:14

was pretty horrible. Yeah. And I went

20:16

from quite a small school in Epsom

20:18

to like a big high school in

20:20

Glasgow. So the feeling of vulnerability was,

20:22

oh, it was... Yeah, I hated it.

20:25

I had my first panic attack when

20:27

I was about 11, 12, proper full-on

20:29

panic attacks. Did you know

20:31

what it was? Did anyone?

20:33

No, just all was dying.

20:35

Um, breath, everything. Oh, everything.

20:38

Cryy. Did you tell your mom?

20:40

Yeah. Did she know what it was?

20:42

Uh, no. No, I remember at one

20:44

point she took me to a

20:47

psychiatrist. Because I was

20:49

obviously deeply unhappy. Yeah.

20:51

and we walked into the psychorects

20:53

office and I don't remember she

20:55

was wearing a big floey scoot,

20:58

she was like such a cliched

21:00

looking psychiatrist, my severe rings like

21:02

dream catcher earrings and flowy skirts

21:05

and she said, she turned to

21:07

me, she went and what, Zoe,

21:09

what is, you know, what is the

21:12

problem? And my mom just went, I

21:14

can't cope anymore! I was like, I

21:16

think this might be the problem like

21:18

this. She turned to a moment and

21:21

she went, I think you should leave

21:23

the room. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I

21:25

was very very unhappy. And

21:27

it was funny, she said,

21:29

have you ever had suicidal

21:31

thoughts? And I went, hasn't

21:33

everybody? Oh, yeah. And she would,

21:36

no, not at 14. I was like,

21:38

oh, well, yes. Yeah, just a feeling of,

21:40

I guess because of the

21:42

constant moving and I guess

21:44

because of the slightly emotionally

21:47

distant parents. Yeah. just

21:49

a constant feeling of loneliness

21:52

that followed me. When did you

21:54

start making connections with people? Does

21:56

that come much later? I did make

21:58

friends at school. I had a

22:00

very select few. Right. So I did

22:03

have, and I'm still in touch

22:05

with some of those people, so

22:07

that's really lovely. You know. What

22:09

did you have in common with them?

22:11

Actually, I think they actually

22:13

took me under their wing. They

22:16

were very sweet. Because my nickname

22:18

at the school, at school was

22:20

The Freak. I found out. Yeah.

22:22

Because I had a different accent.

22:25

Because I had Alapicia. Right. When

22:27

I was a kid as well.

22:29

I, you know, I stuck out. I

22:32

was beginning to realize I

22:34

was gay. It was like, oh God, what

22:36

a... So ticket. What a cluster of... Well,

22:38

I was going to use the word ball

22:40

of tension. Yeah. And that would manifest itself

22:42

as alopecia and as panic attacks and as

22:44

some of the other stuff going on. And

22:47

yet, we only ever have the childhood we

22:49

have, don't we? We only ever know who

22:51

we are. So how conscious were you? You

22:53

can say that now. But how conscious were

22:55

you at the time of not, quotes, fitting

22:57

in end quotes. Did you want to? Because

22:59

you want to. Because you know you developed

23:02

quite soon. You developed quite soon. Yeah.

23:04

Which means you've kind of

23:06

accepted that you don't fit

23:08

here. Yeah. Yeah. I think I always

23:11

always always on the lookout

23:13

for something better, something bigger

23:15

for me. I was very

23:18

unhappy. I used to,

23:20

yeah, imagine sort of moving

23:22

away, being away. When I

23:24

was 16, so still at

23:26

high school in Glasgow, I

23:28

went to France once summer

23:30

on an archaeological dig. I wrote

23:32

a letter to Sheffield University, they had

23:34

an archaeological department. I don't even

23:36

know how I found it now

23:39

when you think about it, because

23:41

there's no internet, nothing like that.

23:43

There would be a leaflet on

23:45

a notice for it. Yeah, somewhere, there'd

23:47

have been a pamphlet. And they were

23:49

looking for volunteers to work on this

23:51

archaeological dig in France. And I wrote

23:53

off and they went, you know, come

23:55

and, you know, sleep in a tent

23:57

for too much. So that's what I

23:59

did. took myself off to France. You

24:01

didn't have a particular passion for archaeology.

24:04

No, not whatsoever. Absolutely not what's... And

24:06

I was a terrible volunteer archaeologist. I

24:08

bashed the lid off loads of Roman

24:10

pots. I used to get really bored

24:12

because it's really dull because you're there

24:14

with a toothbrush like that. Paines taking.

24:17

This I can't be asked of this.

24:19

Get the pickaxe out. Literally took the

24:21

top of a pot off once. I

24:23

found it like that. I think we've

24:25

broken. So if I'd met you'd met

24:28

you then. I think that that, I

24:30

don't know actually. Whenever I pictured myself

24:32

as that point of that, you know,

24:34

the 80s, I thought, I want a

24:36

big power suit. That's all I could

24:39

think about. I want something with massive

24:41

shoulders. And I want an office with

24:43

a view, an office with a view.

24:45

I don't know what I was thinking,

24:47

I don't know where I was going

24:50

with it, but I just always imagined

24:52

myself on a huge power suit with

24:54

huge shoulders. Maybe it's because dynasty was

24:56

dynasty was on Telli. and I don't

24:58

know what the job is, but I

25:00

know where I want to wear. Yeah,

25:03

I want to shoulders. And I know

25:05

what kind of view I want. And

25:07

nothing ever bit at school, nothing ever

25:09

kicked in even at secondary school that

25:11

you didn't do. Started to really enjoy

25:14

drama. Right. That was then. Which is

25:16

not an obvious avenue for someone as

25:18

we've established who didn't really want to

25:20

stand out and who probably didn't. That's

25:22

been a sort of contradiction in my

25:25

life. The shy clown. Okay. You've said

25:27

that, well we're going to jump ahead

25:29

briefly, because you've described your midlife crisis

25:31

as involving realising you didn't really want

25:33

to be doing what to be looked

25:36

at. Yeah. Which is quite odd, as

25:38

you say. Yeah. James Acaster's new show

25:40

explores similar territory. He talks about, I

25:42

don't like it, but you need it.

25:44

But you need it. don't like it

25:47

but um why do I do this

25:49

why do I do this but then

25:51

you're in the middle of it I

25:53

love it yeah yeah yeah and at

25:55

the end of it I'm good at

25:57

this yeah it's awful yeah what an

26:00

awful collection of emotions um tell me

26:02

about the first time then that you

26:04

went into the drama society or the

26:06

club or the gym or whatever it

26:08

was when you saw a drama studio

26:11

in yeah it's school And I can't

26:13

remember my teacher's name, but I do

26:15

remember what she looked like vividly. Again,

26:17

she had like wild flowing hair. I

26:19

always lived Kate Bush when I think

26:22

of her. There was something a bit

26:24

ethereal about her, you know, and I

26:26

remember her once saying to me, you're

26:28

good at drama. And I thought, I

26:30

am. You're right, darling, I am. Was

26:33

that the first time? So I'm going

26:35

to tell you you were going to

26:37

something in school. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

26:39

yeah. How well, yeah. How well, yeah.

26:41

How well, yeah. How well, yeah. How

26:43

well, yeah. How well, yeah. How well,

26:46

yeah. How well, yeah. How well, yeah.

26:48

How well, yeah. How well, yeah. How

26:50

well, yeah. How well, yeah. How well,

26:52

yeah. How well, yeah. How old. How

26:54

well, yeah. How old. How old. How

26:57

old. How old. How old. How old.

26:59

How old. How old. How old to

27:01

the drama studio. What drew you to

27:03

it? It was part of our curriculum.

27:05

Right. But I enjoyed the imagination of

27:08

it, the showing off of it. Yeah.

27:10

And did you play parts in plays

27:12

and things like that? Little bits at

27:14

school. It was only when I went

27:16

to the university that I started to

27:19

do more and more of it. Yeah.

27:21

So you must, I mean, have produced

27:23

the goods. in your A levels to

27:25

get into university. Well that was the

27:27

thing. Go on. So you do Scottish

27:29

hires which are different. Yes of course.

27:32

So you do more of them but

27:34

they're less hard but I still managed

27:36

to absolutely cock them up. Did you?

27:38

Oh God. So I was on this

27:40

dig in the south of France on

27:43

this archaeological dig. I rang up to

27:45

get my results. I hadn't got enough

27:47

to get into uni. I knew I

27:49

was going to have to go back

27:51

to school so rather than face the

27:54

music the music I got on a

27:56

train and went to Marrakeesh. So now

27:58

there's another side of the personality emerging.

28:00

So America, what would you just plucked

28:02

it out the blue? No, there would...

28:05

And the music would be your mom

28:07

and your stepfather, would it? Or the

28:09

school, or what would the music be?

28:11

The school. Yeah, I didn't want to

28:13

go back to school. So, um, I

28:15

cancelled my... light home and with these

28:18

two older women on the archaeological dig

28:20

I was 16 they were 26 one

28:22

was American one was from the University

28:24

of Sheffield and they said we're going

28:26

to Marrakech and I went I'm gonna

28:29

come with you so I bought yeah

28:31

got the train down through Spain jumped

28:33

on a boat and over to Marrakech

28:35

and then that was the first time

28:37

I properly travelled and I remember getting

28:40

off the train in Marrakech and it

28:42

I was like, oh my God, there's

28:44

a whole different world out here. It's

28:46

an amazing place to have stumbled upon,

28:48

isn't it? Because it's not like, it's

28:51

like Britain but hotter or like Britain

28:53

with more fruit or it is utterly,

28:55

utterly different. Alien. Yeah, it was amazing.

28:57

It was amazing. And I thought, well,

28:59

I'll never be the same after this.

29:01

incredibly ill, had to be flown home

29:04

and then my dad had to pay

29:06

for that, the payback, the woman who

29:08

paid my flight home. Anyway, but, but

29:10

when I went back to school, I

29:12

went back with a story. Yeah. Yeah,

29:15

I'd spent two months on an archaeological

29:17

dig in France and I ended up

29:19

in America. How long were you in

29:21

America short? About a lunch. Yeah, did

29:23

it hit the bells? But it's significant

29:26

because your horizons have suddenly... broadened enormously,

29:28

you've become aware of a different universe.

29:30

Yeah, I never forget standing, coming out

29:32

the, because we got into Casablanca first,

29:34

we got the train to Casablanca, we

29:37

slept on Casablanca platform station at night.

29:39

It was really dangerous. We had to

29:41

be really careful. And then we went

29:43

down to Marrakech and walking out of

29:45

the station now and walking into this

29:48

just madness. And it was like... Bing,

29:50

it was the same sort of effect

29:52

as going to America as five and

29:54

going, oh there's color in the world,

29:56

as going bing, oh my God, there's

29:58

a whole different world out there. And

30:01

it smells and it's violence and it's...

30:03

all of life and it's incredible. So

30:05

when I read I was the kid

30:07

who hoped to run away and join

30:09

an Andy Warhol type scene but just

30:12

didn't have any of the skills required

30:14

except for an adventurous spirit I didn't

30:16

realize you kind of had run it.

30:18

Not really in an Andy Warhol kind

30:20

of way. So you were different when

30:23

you came back. I mean did these

30:25

are seminal moments. Yeah totally totally. But

30:27

you still had to get your exams.

30:29

I got my exams and I did

30:31

better the next time round. Did you

30:34

have a... transaction in mind do you

30:36

think when you came back did you

30:38

think actually I really do want to

30:40

get out and now that's not just

30:42

some sort of abstract desire now I'd

30:44

therefore I need to do well in

30:47

my I need to kind of do

30:49

better or did you just naturally improve

30:51

I naturally improved I've always struggled with

30:53

like I said reading and focus but

30:55

I knuckle down and I My mom

30:58

got me some help as well with

31:00

some of my courses and once I

31:02

had some help with them I did

31:04

much better and then I thought I'll

31:06

go to university. Why psychology? Because, this

31:09

sounds odd, I went to York, I

31:11

did psychology, I chose York because it

31:13

had a very pretty picture on the

31:15

prospectus and it was far enough away

31:17

from home. and I chose psychology at

31:20

York because you could choose it. You

31:22

could either, once you graduated, you could

31:24

either have a BSC or a BA,

31:26

you could decide what it was. I

31:28

thought, well this course doesn't even know

31:30

what it is. It's perfect. Yeah. If

31:33

it doesn't know what it is. I'll

31:35

be okay. This will be fine. Yes.

31:37

Yeah. Did you engage with your studies

31:39

though? I've just had

31:41

the shiver there. I've just had

31:43

a flashback to a tutorial. You

31:45

sounded like one of my tutors.

31:47

Have you engaged with any of

31:49

your works in it? Not really.

31:51

Not as such. I tell you

31:54

what I did. I am, I,

31:56

to a degree, excuse the pun,

31:58

I got a tut. I got

32:00

a Desmond 2 tour. He doesn't

32:02

smash many doors down. Doesn't really.

32:04

I was more interested in trying

32:06

to discover who I was at

32:08

that point. So I joined lots

32:10

of clubs. I joined the pot-holling

32:12

society. Never went pot-holling because I

32:14

did one absailing class in a

32:16

gym hall. Got my hair caught

32:18

in the Caribbean and thought this

32:20

isn't for me. I joined the

32:22

Octopus Society, which is an underwater

32:24

hockey club. And that's about as

32:26

much fun as you can imagine.

32:28

Not a spectator sport. But then

32:30

I also joined the York University

32:32

Amateur Dramatics Society, or Usad. Yes.

32:34

And that's where I started to

32:36

blossom. Yeah. And do you think

32:38

you were making up for lost

32:40

time by joining all of these?

32:42

Yeah. making up for not having

32:44

been... kind of fun like... your

32:46

tribe, yeah, it's what you're trying

32:48

to do in it when you're

32:50

growing up. And you did in

32:52

the drama society, to a degree,

32:54

yeah. Because we haven't mentioned comedy

32:56

yet, really, apart from Peter Sellers,

32:58

and I think... Dick Henry probably.

33:01

There's something about, oh you are

33:03

awful, oh you are awful. God

33:05

I love Dick Henry. That was

33:07

a big, that was a big

33:09

bond with my dad and I,

33:11

Dick Henry. In fact, that is

33:13

my first comedy memory. I must

33:15

have been five years old every

33:17

night before I went to bed.

33:19

My dad would stand me on

33:21

the end of the bed and

33:23

I'd say do the line and

33:25

he'd go, oh you are awful.

33:27

And then hit me so I'd

33:29

fall back on the bed on

33:31

the bed and then go back

33:33

on the bed. feel that you

33:35

appreciate the things the grown-ups find

33:37

funny. It's quite a lovely moment,

33:39

is Malcolm and Wise as well,

33:41

probably for me. You just sort

33:43

of think, I get my... So

33:45

you're upstairs, you hear your dad

33:47

laughing, and then a couple of

33:49

years later you're downstairs watching a

33:51

rhythm and wondering what they're laughing

33:53

at. That is a huge moment.

33:55

And then that moment when you

33:57

get it and you laugh. as

33:59

well. Yeah. So you had a

34:01

relationship with comedy. Emotion. Oh yeah,

34:03

yeah. And we still share clips

34:05

my dad and I, the particular

34:08

other Peter Sellers from Pink Pan

34:10

thought, you know, does your dog

34:12

bad? No, my dad is not

34:14

bad. It's one of the funniest

34:16

scenes ever. Makes him hell. He's

34:18

got a very, he does have

34:20

a very innocent childish sense of

34:22

humor, but I, so do I.

34:24

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But nothing yet

34:26

to suggest that you might have

34:28

a go at it yourself on.

34:30

And even at university with the

34:32

sort of amateur dramatics, amateur dramatic

34:34

society, I was predominantly making props

34:36

initially. Yeah, because I was, because

34:38

York was quite, I didn't realise

34:40

this, but it did have quite

34:42

a high sort of, Oxford Reject

34:44

sort of clientele. Yeah, okay. So

34:46

I had gone from this high

34:48

school in Glasgow to this. semi

34:50

posh uni and I hadn't been

34:52

around people like that before so

34:54

I was a bit intimidated and

34:56

you know they were intimidated by

34:58

people like you and they were

35:00

just better at hiding it they

35:02

just sounded less intimidating yes exactly

35:04

it costs a fortune yeah patina

35:06

of not being intimidated so you

35:08

didn't think that you would push

35:10

yourself onto the stage but you

35:12

wanted to be involved so you

35:14

started and making the props yeah

35:17

and then And then I got

35:19

involved in sketch shows and then...

35:21

Well that's comedy. Yeah, yeah. And

35:23

then I got little parts in

35:25

plays. I was always the shuffling

35:27

maid. Until I got to play,

35:29

there was a lovely woman who...

35:31

directed, she was doing English, I

35:33

was always really intimidated by people

35:35

doing English. Again, I think that

35:37

came back to the sort of

35:39

reading thing and the sort of

35:41

feeling inadequate. And she cast me

35:43

as Maggie in Brian Friel's Dancing

35:45

at Lunasow and it's a really

35:47

big part and it's a lovely

35:49

part. It is. came alive in

35:51

that moment. Oh God I loved

35:53

it. I loved it because I

35:55

knew I could do it. Again

35:57

like going to Marrakesh like a

35:59

proper life change. Yeah also I

36:01

could do the Irish accent get

36:03

in. So yeah. Did you smash

36:05

it? I think I did. Then

36:07

you did. Yeah I think I

36:09

did. Yeah it was a long

36:11

time ago but I do I

36:13

do remember thinking yeah. They're um,

36:15

nail this, they're reviving at the

36:17

Abbey Theatre in Dublin this year.

36:19

It's, it's a beautiful play, isn't

36:21

it? Yeah. It really is. And

36:24

so did that change your ambitions?

36:26

Did you begin to think, cautiously,

36:28

maybe I could even think, right.

36:30

But again, it took, it always

36:32

takes me ages. My, my mental

36:34

states and career has moved like

36:36

an arthritic snail. Slowly, slowly. Really,

36:38

we need to speed this up

36:40

like one of those sort of,

36:42

one of those films where a

36:44

mushroom grows over a week, you

36:46

know. But oh my God, arthritic

36:48

snail pace, because I doubt myself

36:50

so much, I still do. So

36:52

it's always taken like three years

36:54

to do something that should have

36:56

taken three months. So I left

36:58

uni, I went traveling, I worked

37:00

in bars and restaurants, I ended

37:02

up in London, and I eventually

37:04

went to drama school at the

37:06

age of... 24. Okay. Yeah. It's

37:08

not like years and years and

37:10

years, but it is three years.

37:12

Yeah. And you were back in

37:14

Glasgow for a while, I think,

37:16

as well during that period. You

37:18

come to London, you go to

37:20

the Paul School, which is... It

37:22

was King's Cross. But it also

37:24

means you work as well. It's

37:26

not like you get a grant

37:28

and you go full time. So

37:31

it meant you, the classes were

37:33

in the evening and the weekend

37:35

so you could work during the

37:37

day. So I worked in bars

37:39

and restaurants during the days and

37:41

waitress and bartended and then went

37:43

and did that at night. Now

37:45

you think, I mean this is,

37:47

you might have taken you a

37:49

long time to get there, but

37:51

you are genuinely ambitious to be

37:53

a professional actor. Yes. I mean,

37:55

hand on heart, you think I'm,

37:57

one day I will be a

37:59

professional actor. It was at drama

38:01

school, I realized how hard it

38:03

is to be a professional actor.

38:05

I was. Even for people who've

38:07

got into good dramas. Yeah, even

38:09

for people who've got it. You

38:11

know, and I thought, God, this

38:13

is, this is tricky, isn't it.

38:15

Isn't it. one who was exceptionally

38:17

pretty, and that sounds like an

38:19

awful thing to say, but you

38:21

know an agent's night she got

38:23

about eight offers, nobody else got

38:25

anything, I was like, oh is

38:27

this how this works, right? Yeah,

38:29

yeah, yeah, yeah, symmetrical face, all

38:31

right. And I thought this is,

38:33

I don't think I'm cut out

38:35

for this level of disappointment that

38:38

is inevitable if I go down

38:40

this field. and I don't want

38:42

to be getting bit parts in

38:44

place for the rest of my

38:46

life and I don't want to

38:48

be on the fringe I do

38:50

want to be the main thing

38:52

and I thought well what I'm

38:54

a good at and I thought

38:56

I always excel at comedic roles

38:58

I'm going to try comedy I

39:00

want to do comedy but again

39:02

it took me ages and ages

39:04

to do it it took me

39:06

another three years before I try

39:08

to do stand up. So three

39:10

years after leaving drop of school

39:12

okay so you're just a sort

39:14

of professional hospitality professional. Doing bits

39:16

of activity. CGI Fridays I think

39:18

around the corner from here for

39:20

a while. Yeah. They just shut

39:22

the one next door. Yeah. It's

39:24

the end of an era. It

39:26

is, yeah. Hardest job I ever

39:28

did. But also enjoyable, except was

39:30

it enjoyable for you because you're

39:32

an introvert? So did you... Yes,

39:34

no, it always comes with a

39:36

sort of... I was one of

39:38

those... bottle throwing cocktail bar too

39:40

much. Oh really? You could do

39:42

the whole... Not very well. There

39:44

couldn't do it very well. No.

39:47

There was a lot of cut

39:49

fingers and a few injured clientele.

39:51

You're mad, isn't it? I've got

39:53

very poor hand-to-eye coordination it turns.

39:55

It's an odd thing to have

39:57

ended up doing, though. Yeah, it

39:59

really is, it wasn't for me.

40:01

But there's a plan, then, in

40:03

your mind. So it's not that

40:05

you're lazy. No, it's just I'm

40:07

really fractured. Yeah, really fractured and

40:09

slow. And so what would you

40:11

do? Would you think every day

40:13

would you think I must get

40:15

around to doing that and then

40:17

just not get around? I must

40:19

try and write some comedy or

40:21

would you try to write it?

40:23

I'd try to write it. Go

40:25

that's rubbish. That'll never work. Then

40:27

what I started to do was

40:29

I'd go to comedy clubs, you

40:31

know, over might nights. I'd take

40:33

myself off my own, sit at

40:35

the back and watch. Because I

40:37

thought well I'll learn something from

40:39

watching other people comedy that you

40:41

go... I can be that bad.

40:43

I can't be worse than this.

40:45

I can learn from this and

40:47

try. So I put myself in

40:49

for a gig at the King's

40:51

Head in North London and they

40:54

gave you five minute tryout spots.

40:56

What year is this now though?

40:58

That would have been like 2001.

41:00

Okay. Wow. Yeah, I was 30,

41:02

nearly 30. And I wrote some

41:04

awful material. What about? Oh God.

41:06

weapons of mass destruction. And I

41:08

did a parody of mills and

41:10

boons doing weapons of mass destruction.

41:12

That's quite a good idea. It

41:14

was pretty hack. It was pretty

41:16

awful. But at that point it

41:18

wasn't really the material I was

41:20

worried about. It was more the

41:22

sort of breaking the amiscus of

41:24

it and just doing it. And

41:26

I did that five minutes and

41:28

that was it. I got off

41:30

stage and I said to my

41:32

partner and I said to my

41:34

partner, well that's it, we're doing

41:36

this now, this is what I

41:38

just that was it. That was

41:40

literally it. I'm home. I'm doing

41:42

this now. Finally, 30. This is

41:44

what I'm here for. Yeah, yeah,

41:46

I'm going to make this work.

41:48

And I didn't have a plan

41:50

B, which is always terrifying, but

41:52

actually it makes you a much

41:54

better tightroat walk. mine. Doesn't it?

41:56

Yeah. You know you think about

41:58

that local rope, across the tight

42:01

ropes in New York and those

42:03

two buildings. The reason he made

42:05

it is because he had to.

42:07

I bumped into a lad in

42:09

Dublin yesterday called Aaron who listens

42:11

to all of these and who

42:13

is where you are then. He's

42:15

writing stuff now. He hasn't quite

42:17

done it yet. Yeah. What would

42:19

you say to him? Keep going,

42:21

just keep doing it, write it

42:23

all. Some of it will be

42:25

rubbish but you have to sort

42:27

of digs through the... you know,

42:29

the soil to get to the

42:31

gems and it takes a long

42:33

time. I had to learn how

42:35

to write jokes. I had to

42:37

learn how to not be hack.

42:39

Some people would say, but you

42:41

know, I had to find out

42:43

what it was that I did

42:45

and I see a lot of

42:47

comics mimicking people or mimicking what

42:49

they think a comic is. That's

42:51

not what a comic is. A

42:53

comic is the comic goal that

42:55

lies within you. It's your scene.

42:57

It's your thing. So you have

42:59

to mine down into that. Was

43:01

it the first thing you'd ever

43:03

taken seriously? Yeah. Okay. And still

43:05

is. I mean, it's not the

43:08

only thing, but it's something that

43:10

you take very seriously. I take

43:12

it seriously, yes, I do, yeah.

43:14

I do still struggle with it.

43:16

I still struggle with the idea

43:18

of failure. For me, it feels

43:20

like my career has been like

43:22

trying to climb an ice wall

43:24

in clogs. Just a lot of

43:26

traction sometimes, you know, it's really

43:28

tricky. And sometimes I lose grip

43:30

completely. Sometimes I lose the love

43:32

of it completely. Sometimes I lose

43:34

sight of what it was that

43:36

I wanted to do initially. And

43:38

I think in those times, it's

43:40

really good just to take a

43:42

break, just to take a break

43:44

from it a bit, take a

43:46

different perspective, and just... The

43:48

business has changed an awful lot since

43:51

I first started and I think you

43:53

can get swept away in a lot

43:55

of distraction and I'm currently in the

43:58

process of... trying

44:00

to sell tickets. I love about

44:02

it again and what I want

44:04

to do from this point on.

44:06

Okay. That's not part of the

44:08

process of the new show. Possibly.

44:11

I think this will be my

44:13

last tour. Do you? Yeah. Because

44:15

you're not getting the kind of

44:17

pleasure out of it that you

44:19

did once? I find it hard.

44:21

We're trying to sell tickets. I

44:24

know. Well this is come and

44:26

see it because it will be

44:28

the last chance. Oh I don't

44:30

care if I like it yes.

44:32

Okay so there's a constant self-analysis

44:34

going on with you or situation

44:36

analysis. Situation analysis yeah yeah when

44:39

I started I had a really

44:41

I remember when I did that

44:43

first gig and I'm going to

44:45

make this work and I really

44:47

had a really strong visualization in

44:49

my head and the visualization I

44:52

had was I too. Two visualisations.

44:54

This is before manifestation was even

44:56

a thing. I'm before California. I

44:58

had a vision of me in

45:00

a little car, I didn't know

45:02

one at that time, with a

45:05

drinks cup holder, because in the

45:07

90s that was a thing, early

45:09

noughties, and a notebook on the

45:11

passenger seat beside me, and me

45:13

going to do gigs and making

45:15

money that way. That was my

45:17

vision. The other vision I had

45:20

was... the back of me with

45:22

the camera vision of a back

45:24

of me performing to a massive

45:26

room on tele and I was

45:28

like I'm gonna make those two

45:30

things happen and sort of did

45:33

yeah and and that vision's got

45:35

blurred over the last that was

45:37

very strong yeah that was very

45:39

very strong and very It

45:42

was very directional for me, it

45:44

really was a direction for me.

45:46

Has it something to aim for?

45:48

Yeah, exactly. And I think I've

45:50

lost it a bit in recent

45:52

times, I need to readdress it.

45:55

And I don't think it's weird

45:57

that I've lost it have been,

45:59

because I think the world is

46:01

so distracting. And I think the

46:03

world is so... consuming and that

46:05

you know... You can't compartmentalize as

46:07

much as some people can. No,

46:10

I can't. I've actually discovered that

46:12

about myself. I really can't. I

46:14

can't. I struggle to focus. I

46:16

struggle to stop ruminating. I struggle

46:18

to get rid of the self-doubt.

46:20

I manage, but like I said

46:23

it takes a lot of time.

46:25

And energy, mental energy, mental energy,

46:27

a lot, which is something that

46:29

is a premium if you're doing

46:31

what you do for a living.

46:33

You need to have a lightness

46:35

and you need to have a

46:38

drive, an energy. You need to

46:40

have a lightness, you need to

46:42

have that nimbleness of limb. Yeah.

46:44

Nicely put. And it's, and if,

46:46

and if sometimes I felt like

46:48

I'm wearing a, you know, a

46:51

1920 diving suit and you're like,

46:53

this isn't working for me. So

46:55

no one's going to be shocked

46:57

to be shocked to be shocked

46:59

to be shocked to be shocked

47:01

to be shocked to learn that.

47:04

that magical moment did not usher

47:06

in a very speedy fire. through

47:08

the comedy world. I reckon I'm

47:10

going to hit my heyday when

47:12

I'm about 70. But I look

47:14

forward to it. I mean, we

47:16

hear stories about the apprenticeship and

47:19

working your way up. You started

47:21

getting paid. You'd still be working

47:23

in bars and restaurants. When did

47:25

you, what was the moment where

47:27

you thought, all right, I'm going

47:29

all in as a comic? I

47:32

remember my first agent at the

47:34

time used to run a lot

47:36

of gigs all over the country

47:38

for, not a lot of money,

47:40

but it was predominantly cash. And

47:42

he phoned me up, I remember

47:44

phoning him up on the landline,

47:47

and he gave me a load

47:49

of dates, you know, Plymouth Tuesday,

47:51

called if Thursday. Pottlington in North

47:53

York, she went and I was

47:55

like, this is a May, what,

47:57

and they're all 50 pounds each.

48:00

and I had them all in

48:02

my diary. and I went, that's

48:04

it, we're going, so I quit

48:06

my last remaining job and I

48:08

jumped. To what year was this?

48:10

That was a bit about 2003?

48:12

Okay. Yeah. What

48:16

are the milestones there now? Because

48:18

obviously telly is a game changer

48:20

in the context of some elements.

48:22

It doesn't make you funnier or

48:24

less funny, but it does change

48:27

your relationship with success I suppose.

48:29

By one measure. Perceived success. Certainly

48:31

10 years ago, pre-advent of online

48:33

content. I think it was the

48:35

benchmark. I think... I think those

48:37

comics probably a few years before

48:39

me who got those early, you

48:42

know, live at the Apollo's and

48:44

those sort of things, they could

48:46

actually be career-changing moments for people.

48:48

They had that power, that electricity

48:50

still. That has been diluted over

48:52

the years. And now what I

48:54

think you need is, you know,

48:57

it has to be, it's consistency

48:59

of being on television, which anybody

49:01

will tell you that's tricky. It's

49:03

very hard. I think it becomes

49:05

harder as you become older as

49:07

a woman as well. That's why,

49:10

you know, then you start to,

49:12

you think, oh okay, yeah, I'm,

49:14

it's not, you know, then you

49:16

start to, you think, oh okay,

49:18

yeah, I'm, it's not that I

49:20

struggle with the idea of guessing

49:22

older, but sometimes I forget I've

49:25

got older, that's it, I'm quite

49:27

on board with it, but I

49:29

forget that's happened, and you go

49:31

actually quite a, Quite a long

49:33

period of time has happened since

49:35

I started to this point. Yes.

49:38

So of course lots of things

49:40

will change in that time. I'm

49:42

at that age now, maybe you

49:44

feel this, I don't know, but

49:46

I'm at that age now when

49:48

I think back over my life,

49:50

I go, oh that is almost

49:53

a complete light. That's a, lots

49:55

of things have happened, lots of

49:57

things have changed, lots of things

49:59

have changed, lots of things. of

50:01

political landscapes have changed. Done a

50:03

lot of living. A lot of

50:05

living. Yeah, and the world's done

50:08

a lot of changing. A lot

50:10

of changing. What changes though when

50:12

you do start doing telly? When,

50:14

I mean, I don't imagine that

50:16

it gave you more confidence or

50:18

made you question yourself less. Probably

50:21

did help with my confidence a

50:23

bit. Did it? I think it's

50:25

somebody going, oh you're good enough

50:27

to get on that. I

50:30

enjoy doing tele, I enjoyed it,

50:32

yeah, I enjoyed doing bits of

50:34

it and there are certain things

50:36

that I've really enjoyed doing on

50:39

television. Well you've had a crack

50:41

at some unexpected thing. Yeah, I

50:43

have. Celebrity SAS Who Dares Wins,

50:45

the world's most dangerous roads. Yeah.

50:47

I missed that one. I don't

50:50

know how, I like these kind

50:52

of things. Which one did you

50:54

do with Matt Hancock? SAS. Yeah,

50:56

that's right. I've done a few

50:58

reality TV shows and I always

51:00

find them fascinating. Yeah, well they

51:03

are, they're sociological experiments, so if

51:05

you can be in one. It's

51:07

really... It's better than being on

51:09

an archaeological dig in France in

51:11

1987, isn't it? I did one

51:14

of the first reality TV shows

51:16

before I started doing standard, but

51:18

did Survivor back in 2001. I

51:20

didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

51:22

yeah. And that's when reality TV

51:25

show... No, no, that was cast

51:27

away. He did cast away. Was

51:29

it cast? Well, anyway, it doesn't

51:31

matter. Yeah. The Survivor was, it

51:33

was an American concept that came

51:35

over. It was huge in the

51:38

States because it sort of represents

51:40

their psyche. Yeah, don't go. It

51:42

was not so big over here

51:44

because it turns transpire that we

51:46

prefer watching people sitting on sofas

51:49

slagging each other off in the

51:51

diary room. So... It didn't really

51:53

take off over here. But even

51:55

doing that I found fascinating. That

51:57

was my... first sort of feat,

51:59

that was my first journey into

52:02

television. I was like, this is

52:04

weird. So later on finding yourself

52:06

in those situations and look, you

52:08

know, the reality show SAS. God,

52:10

it's an absolute, it melts your

52:13

brains. You did really went on

52:15

it. Yes. I was coming off

52:17

the back of a mental breakdown.

52:19

I have to say there's nothing

52:21

that powers a middle-aged menopausal woman

52:24

like... Why? Why? Why? No. You

52:26

mean in terms of... throwing yourself

52:28

into it or using it as...

52:30

I used it as... Oh God,

52:32

does this sound awful, but I

52:34

did sort of use it as

52:37

a sort of physical therapy. Yeah,

52:39

that's what I thought you meant.

52:41

Yeah. Okay. Because I've been through

52:43

the ringer a bit with... Yes,

52:45

you've talked about it. Yeah, with

52:48

the pandemic and everything and had

52:50

a bit of a tricky time.

52:52

And then... I thought I can

52:54

get on this show, because I'll

52:56

be... Let's be brutally honest. I'll

52:59

be booked as the old bird.

53:01

And what usually happens with the

53:03

older woman on the show is

53:05

one episode in, she goes, good

53:07

lord I'm out of breath, and

53:09

they get rid of her. No

53:12

disrespect, but that's generally what's happened.

53:14

I always enjoyed Jillie and McKeith

53:16

pretending to faint when she did

53:18

the jungle show. This is the...

53:20

You know what I mean? This

53:23

is what happens, right? And... I

53:25

think I surprised them. Well, yes,

53:27

and the viewers as well. So

53:29

when does the show start emerging

53:31

then during these? Because you mentioned

53:34

the difficult time that you had,

53:36

which you talked about, you did

53:38

that on stage. Did that on

53:40

stage. And then the new show,

53:42

were wolf? Where do you feel

53:44

the seeds of that beginning to

53:47

sprout? sort of readdressing my my

53:49

connection with stand up. Yeah. And

53:51

I thought, well, do I want

53:53

to do this or do or

53:55

not want to do this? So

53:58

I thought, well, let's, let's pour

54:00

loads into a last show and

54:02

do, you know, let's, let's, let's

54:04

try and find the joy in

54:06

doing this again. So it just

54:08

seemed to be right and it's,

54:11

you know, it sort of touches

54:13

on the idea of being this,

54:15

of letting the inner beast, and,

54:17

and not perfect. Yeah, and being

54:19

all right with that. Yeah, being

54:22

all right with that. Because I

54:24

did struggle for a long time

54:26

with being on stage, losing your

54:28

hair, it makes, I'm not the

54:30

most robust of characters at times,

54:33

and I found it really stressful,

54:35

and I found being looked at

54:37

stressful, and I wanted to have

54:39

just, you know, one last show

54:41

where... It comes out where this

54:43

inner strength comes out. And have

54:46

you found that inner strength? I

54:48

think I'm getting that. Because it's

54:50

such an odd thing to do

54:52

if you're in the space that

54:54

you're in. Because the autoimmune disease

54:57

returned, Alapicia returned, when this is

54:59

the bald ambition at all. I

55:01

mean, it would be quite hard

55:03

to explain to someone for the

55:05

first time why you thought this

55:08

would be a good way to

55:10

deal with what you were going

55:12

through. I'm going to go out

55:14

there and talk about it. and

55:16

talk about being frightened in a

55:18

really frightening space. But you know

55:21

what? That takes the power out

55:23

of everything, doesn't it? Is that

55:25

what it is? Is that how

55:27

it works? Because I was so

55:29

depressed, I was so stressed with

55:32

it, I was so anxious with

55:34

it, I was so anxious with

55:36

it. But you said I don't

55:38

want people to look at me.

55:40

So I'm going to go on

55:43

to state. Is it a diversion

55:45

therapy anyway? But then, you know,

55:47

this is what I do for

55:49

a living for a living. I

55:52

thought if I take the power

55:54

out of it, if I talk

55:57

about it, then it's mine and...

55:59

it takes the sting out of

56:02

its tail. And it did, it

56:04

really helps. And I think comedy

56:06

is so special for that because

56:09

you can take anything in your

56:11

life that you know, as an

56:13

art form it's quite unique in

56:16

that way, that you can take

56:18

stuff that can be quite tricky

56:21

to talk about and take the

56:23

sting out of it by A,

56:25

making it normalizing it, and be

56:28

finding the funny in Because

56:31

there is funny in every situation.

56:33

Well, as long as it's authentic.

56:35

So if it's authentic, you can

56:37

find the funny anyway. Yeah, if

56:39

it comes from in there. It

56:41

makes sense. Yeah. There was one

56:44

less unique element of your crisis,

56:46

which was the purchase of a

56:48

sports car. That's important. You've got

56:50

to do it. It's great. So

56:52

cliche. I was so disappointed to

56:54

discover I'm a massive cliche. COVID

56:57

came along, everything got postponed. Yeah.

56:59

And you took a job as

57:01

a part-time vegetables. Vegetable delivery. So

57:03

what's the correct time? I don't

57:05

know. It's a van driver. A

57:07

van, but a van full of

57:09

vegetables. A van full of vegetables.

57:12

Yeah. And driving around the east

57:14

end of London, and then at

57:16

one point. quite poignantly, driving past

57:18

the offices of the production company

57:20

that we're going to be making

57:22

lightning, the show that I was

57:25

doing, the six months prior to

57:27

that I've been in there sort

57:29

of discussing the games and stuff

57:31

and the driving pass with a

57:33

load of corshets in the back.

57:35

That's weird. It's weird, isn't it?

57:37

But it's funny. Well, and that

57:40

would be back to the things

57:42

that you can deal with better

57:44

by reexamining them through the lens

57:46

of comedy. No one I did

57:48

my radio show in a shed

57:50

at the bottom of the gardeners

57:53

Just the mad stuff that happened

57:55

during that period. It's incredible. You're

57:57

on the road, I think, until

57:59

the end of May, or there

58:01

or thereabouts. And you've said, and

58:03

I don't know, it's not like

58:06

a fousty and packed, that it

58:08

would be your last show. But

58:10

if it is, what else will

58:12

you do? What other things do

58:14

you want to do? Because if

58:16

I've understood you correctly, part of

58:18

the loss of enthusiasm, if that's

58:21

the right word, is because... you've

58:23

done the things that you set

58:25

out to do in a way

58:27

and you haven't yet come up

58:29

with any new? So we've gone

58:31

from shoulder pads and a view

58:34

of Central Park to a view

58:36

of you from behind in front

58:38

of a room full of people

58:40

and enough work to run a

58:42

sports car with a cup holder?

58:44

That's gone now. What are the

58:46

next images going to be? Do

58:49

we know? Yes, I would like

58:51

to write more and I'd like

58:53

to write. Again, I don't

58:55

know whether it'd be... So with three

58:57

years from a typical Zoe line cycle,

59:00

it will take me that long, it

59:02

genuinely will. I'm in the weirdest position,

59:04

I have a literary agent and I

59:07

haven't produced anything for them. Like, they

59:09

took me on after seeing me on

59:11

stage and went, you should write a

59:14

book. I should write a book. I

59:16

should write a book. And then three

59:18

years later, I've written the book, but

59:21

it will, I will do it. I'm

59:23

a lot... I'm going to say the

59:25

words, kinder to myself these days in

59:28

that this is how clearly how I

59:30

function. Now I can try and change

59:32

this. I can try and become much

59:35

more proactive. I can get up at

59:37

5 o'clock and meditate and then, you

59:39

know, have a cup of chi and

59:42

whatever and try and be productive until

59:44

1. It ain't going to happen. I

59:46

have to just roll with the mechanics

59:49

that I've been given. And once the

59:51

conditions are right, it'll work. It could

59:53

be that everything has been a preparation

59:55

for writing because writing is probably the

59:58

one thing that fits that model more

1:00:00

than anything else. Yeah. You know, you

1:00:02

can't postpone a gig because you're not

1:00:05

feeling it. You've got to get out

1:00:07

there and do it. Whereas with writing,

1:00:09

you can have periods of extraordinary productivity

1:00:12

and then periods of abject lethargy. Nothing

1:00:14

happens at all. And I'm much more

1:00:16

comfortable with being on my own these

1:00:19

days. So I was a reluctant lonely

1:00:21

person and now I'm not lonely. I

1:00:23

do spend a lot. I am sometimes

1:00:26

like that. I'm

1:00:28

more comfortable and confident in my own

1:00:30

company. But with the writing, you've got

1:00:32

to break the meniscus. Yeah, exactly. That's

1:00:35

all I have to do. That's all

1:00:37

I have to do. I'm getting there.

1:00:39

I'm really close. I'm like one of

1:00:41

those... circling the meniscus. You know those

1:00:44

little like pawns skater insects that you

1:00:46

see and you go, oh, any minute

1:00:48

now. That's going to drown or fly.

1:00:50

That's where I'm at. How do people

1:00:53

get hold of tickets for the new

1:00:55

talk? Do we know? They go to

1:00:57

my website which is zoelyans.co.uk. It's a

1:00:59

really good website. It's really, really slick.

1:01:02

It's nice, isn't it? Yes, amazing. I

1:01:04

was having a look at it before

1:01:06

you came in. Yes, it's been recently...

1:01:08

That's it. Well it shows, make sure

1:01:11

you give a pat on the head

1:01:13

over there. It really is, it's a

1:01:15

lovely book. Yeah, I didn't do it,

1:01:18

obviously, but it would take three years

1:01:20

for years for years for years for

1:01:22

years for years for me. Thank you.

1:01:24

Will you have fun? Yeah I will.

1:01:27

I really will because I'm in a

1:01:29

good space of mine and I'm in

1:01:31

a good... yeah I'm in a good

1:01:33

friend of mine. Yeah. Zolai's thank you.

1:01:36

Oh good pleasure, thank you. This

1:01:54

is a global player original

1:01:56

podcast.