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Dependent on Jurisdiction. Hi

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everybody, Sheryl Akison here. Welcome

0:36

to another edition of Full

0:38

Measure After Hours. Today, a

0:40

rare interview with professional investor

0:42

Jeffrey Warnick about Bitcoin and

0:44

his lack of confidence in

0:46

the future of the US

0:48

dollar and the centralized money

0:50

system. You

0:54

might not have heard the name

0:56

Jeffrey Warnick. He's pretty famous in

0:58

his world, but he just doesn't

1:00

do many interviews. I'm lucky

1:02

he agreed to do a second interview with

1:04

me for Full Measure. The first

1:06

was about four to five years ago

1:08

when I was trying to better understand

1:11

and explain Bitcoin. Warnick,

1:13

who foresaw success and invested

1:15

early in Uber and

1:17

Airbnb, now says he's

1:19

devoted his life to

1:21

ethical investments, encouraging freedom,

1:23

not censorship, and decentralization,

1:26

which means Bitcoin. On

1:28

Sunday, February 23rd, on Full Measure, I'll

1:30

have the interview with Jeffrey Warnick,

1:32

but you get to hear the

1:34

whole thing today in this podcast. And

1:36

as you'll hear, he talks about a

1:39

lot more than just Bitcoin because

1:41

actually his thoughts on Bitcoin relate to

1:43

a much more global view of the

1:45

US dollar, centralized monetary

1:47

systems, and the economy. Here's

1:50

Jeffrey Warnick. I

1:56

think some people refer to me as

1:58

an OG in the... in the Bitcoin

2:01

space because I was

2:03

an early adopter

2:06

of Bitcoin. I

2:08

think some people

2:10

several years ago when

2:12

I used to Well, now it's been

2:14

quite a few years ago, because I

2:16

used to, when I used to regularly

2:19

speak at conferences, some people know me

2:21

is that for many people, even though

2:23

I'm not the first person to say

2:26

it, I might have been the first

2:28

person to repeat it frequently, is I

2:30

would tell people if it's, if it's

2:32

not Bitcoin, assume it's a shit coin.

2:35

So I think I was one of

2:37

the most, well, I might be self-serving,

2:39

but I think I was one of

2:42

the most principled advocate for not only

2:44

for Bitcoin, but the underlying principle is

2:46

a Bitcoin. And how would I like

2:48

separate myself from like a Michael Saylor?

2:51

I mean, I would never make a

2:53

statement saying, you know, I want to

2:55

partner with the government regulation and people

2:58

should not be able to. custody their

3:00

own coins. You know, I'm a believer

3:02

that everybody should custody their own

3:05

coins and nobody should use,

3:07

you know, third party custodians

3:09

for their, for their, their

3:11

expression as if it's not

3:13

your, it's not your while,

3:15

it's not your money, possession

3:17

is nine-tenths of the law.

3:19

So anything valuable, people should

3:21

self-custity. And I'm an advocate

3:23

for all the other underlying

3:25

principles of Bitcoin, which means

3:27

I like decentralization. I'm an

3:29

actual opponent of anything that's

3:31

centralized. I think everything should

3:33

be permissionless. So I want

3:35

to live in a permission

3:37

of this world. I want

3:39

to live in a decentralized

3:41

world where there are no

3:44

authorities. And to the extent

3:46

that we deem somebody authority,

3:48

we've done it because we've

3:50

chosen to. And that person,

3:52

we only have authority based

3:54

upon mutual agreement and explicit

3:56

consent. And I believe in

3:59

censorship resistant. So, you know,

4:01

hence the fact that, you

4:03

know, I gave money to

4:05

Paula, hence the fact I

4:07

gave money to Gab, hence

4:09

the fact that I've given

4:12

money to Bit Shoot. So,

4:14

basically, I think probably... You

4:16

know, again, not without being

4:18

self-serving, I'm probably the most

4:20

principal investor with respect to

4:23

free speech because I don't

4:25

embrace any form of content

4:27

moderation, I don't embrace any

4:29

form of shadow banning, I don't

4:31

embrace any form of throttling, you know,

4:34

and if people find, you know, speech

4:36

offensive, you know, they shouldn't listen. So

4:38

we have a First Amendment not to

4:40

protect the speech we like, but to

4:43

give as much protection to the speech

4:45

we don't like as speech we like.

4:47

And that's an unpopular position.

4:50

It's a presumption that gets you

4:52

punished in the marketplace because you

4:54

get advertisers who don't like to

4:56

be affiliated with platforms that actually

4:58

like free speech. And so I

5:00

would never say something like freedom

5:03

of speech, but not freedom of

5:05

reach. So I think I think

5:07

I'm a how people how I'd

5:09

like people to know me is

5:11

someone who's a very principled investor

5:13

who has certain deeply felt values

5:16

passionate and deeply felt you know

5:18

and I put my money where

5:20

my mouth is. If I remember

5:22

correctly you're an early investor in

5:24

Uber or something like Uber? Yes,

5:26

but I don't, you know, those

5:29

are centralized things. I don't really

5:31

like to talk about it. Yeah,

5:33

I don't really like those platforms.

5:36

So I don't, I don't like

5:38

those platforms. But you

5:40

made some money on them. Yeah, I've

5:42

made money on a lot of stuff.

5:44

So, uh, I think, I think I,

5:46

I, yeah, there was a point in

5:48

my life where I like to trade

5:51

just for the pleasure of trading. Dan at

5:53

a point in life and I think maybe

5:55

I was influenced by a lot of friends,

5:57

you know, who said that, you know, I...

5:59

I shouldn't opt out of

6:01

society because for many years

6:04

that was my decision. Basically

6:06

to opt out I wanted to be

6:08

private and I wanted to be anonymous.

6:10

So I think a lot of my

6:13

friends had pointed out to me that

6:15

I have firmly held views but I'm

6:17

not willing to fight for any of

6:20

my views. I think as I got

6:22

older, I decided to focus my effort

6:24

energy in fighting for things that I

6:27

strongly believe in. So while then I

6:29

liked to be anonymous, you know, now

6:31

I don't want to be a public

6:34

figure, but I want to put effort

6:36

into things, you know, I don't

6:38

want to just figure out how

6:41

I can create my own world

6:43

independent of... everyone else's world

6:45

and know you know I got

6:47

a few bucks and I could

6:49

live my life and I can't

6:51

have any third-party damage me that

6:53

maybe I have some responsibility to

6:55

make the world a better place

6:57

and you know in my way

6:59

of doing that you know is

7:01

advocating for you know for freedom

7:03

and I think the type of

7:06

freedom that you know with Thomas

7:08

Jefferson who's my you know favorite

7:10

founder would would would appreciate. So,

7:12

so, let's see, I just was

7:14

69, so I don't know

7:16

how many more productive years

7:19

I have left. You have

7:21

a lot. But whatever productive

7:24

years I have, we'll be

7:26

advocating for, you know, decentralized

7:29

platforms that advance liberty and

7:31

freedom. you know I hope I don't

7:33

lose money on it but my main

7:36

goal is not making money even though

7:38

I want to make money to the

7:40

sense that if I don't make money

7:42

I haven't succeeded so but I want

7:44

you know succeeding at this you know

7:47

even when I first invested in Paula

7:49

you know I told the founder Paula

7:51

you know that I'm investing in a

7:53

movement not a business so and I've

7:55

said the same thing to like I

7:58

said to the founder Gab and and

8:00

to bit shoot also, you

8:02

know, that I'm investing in

8:04

a movement and I want

8:06

the movement to succeed. So,

8:08

you know, the financial returns

8:10

are secondary to me, you

8:12

know, the principle thing is

8:14

I want to, I want

8:16

us to remind the people

8:18

of, you know, our foundational

8:20

principles because whatever other people

8:22

think about what made America

8:24

great, is not government, you

8:26

know, is the people. and the

8:29

people uninhibited, you know, by

8:31

an interventionist, activist, you know,

8:33

government, uh, and I don't

8:35

think, you know, if, if

8:37

even Alexander Hamilton, he woke

8:39

up today and saw that,

8:41

you know, government spending represented

8:43

directly over 40% of GDP.

8:45

And then if you take

8:47

a look at all the

8:49

rules and regulations and things

8:52

you need to permission for,

8:54

basically free market of capitalism

8:56

is available to people like

8:58

Elon Musk and no one else.

9:00

Because everybody else is in the

9:02

world that they need to ask

9:04

permission for everything. So that's not

9:06

really free market capitalism. So we

9:08

have capitalism for the few, not

9:10

for the many, not for everyone.

9:12

And the founding was capitalism for

9:14

everyone. And when you need to

9:17

ask permission. and it costs a

9:19

lot of money to ask permission,

9:21

you know, because most of these

9:23

businesses, you have to hire lawyers,

9:25

you have to show certain capital

9:27

requirements, you got to go to a

9:29

Wall Street firm or something to raise

9:31

money, you know, you have all these

9:33

rules, you know, that basically hold these

9:36

barriers to entry, you know, and in

9:38

a free society should eliminate all the

9:40

barriers to entry. So I think that

9:42

they would, uh... wake up a pole

9:44

that's to see, you know, as Franklin,

9:46

you know, famously said, you know, it's

9:48

a republic, if you can keep it,

9:51

we haven't kept it, you know, and

9:53

I'm going to keep reminding people, we

9:55

haven't kept it, and, but it's never

9:57

too late to start moving back to

9:59

be. a constitutional public and

10:01

embrace the principles that the

10:04

founders espoused. And that's where

10:06

American exceptionalism came from, in

10:08

my opinion. Sorry. We're here

10:11

primarily to talk about Bitcoin because

10:13

you're really good at talking about

10:15

Bitcoin. But keep in mind that most

10:18

people watching this are like me, as

10:20

much as I've read up on it and

10:22

try to understand it, a lot of it's

10:24

still very much of a puzzle. So try

10:26

to speak if you can in simple terms

10:28

about it. But since you are

10:31

interested in ethical investments today,

10:33

in a nutshell, why do

10:35

you think Bitcoin is an

10:37

ethical investment? I think

10:39

I think Bitcoin is the most

10:41

ethical investment. And I think it's

10:43

the most ethical investment for, first,

10:46

a lot of the principles that

10:48

I just spoke about. I think

10:50

Bitcoin is ethical in a

10:52

sense. It has a well-defined rules.

10:54

and those rules are immutable. So

10:57

you can't buy influence. So what

10:59

could be more ethical than a

11:01

protocol, that an uncorruptible protocol? What

11:04

could be more ethical than that?

11:06

So the ledger never lies. Whatever

11:08

the ledger records, whatever the ledger

11:10

reports, is always the truth. So

11:13

here you have a ledger that

11:15

only records the truth. A lie

11:17

does not exist in the Bitcoin

11:20

ecosystem. Inside the ledger, there's no

11:22

such thing as a lie. The

11:24

protocol prohibits lying, okay, and people

11:26

trust the protocol to keep lying

11:29

out of the protocol through the

11:31

process under which a Bitcoin is

11:33

created. So it's a completely honest

11:35

ledger and nobody doubts the integrity

11:37

of that ledger. You don't need

11:40

to hire third-party auditors to validate

11:42

that ledger. You have third parties.

11:44

trying to track who's transacting on

11:46

that ledger because people want to

11:48

try and find people's identity related

11:51

to their engagement in the platform.

11:53

The ledger doesn't offer that information,

11:55

but third parties go hunt for it, but

11:57

that's not a ledger doesn't produce that information.

12:00

and share that information on its

12:02

own. It's third party society to

12:04

go into the ledger and look

12:06

at the private public keys and

12:08

try and track who they think

12:10

identities are, but that requires a

12:12

lot of effort from third parties.

12:14

That's not part of the ecosystem

12:16

of the ledger itself. So what's

12:18

more ethical than something that you

12:20

have a store that people can

12:22

exchange value without having to ask permission?

12:25

Doing a transaction on a

12:27

mutual voluntary basis. that can't

12:29

be censored. There's no lying

12:31

involved. The transactions recorded real

12:33

time. the whole world can

12:35

observe the transaction without knowing

12:37

the identity of the parties

12:40

engaging in the transaction, but

12:42

the whole world can observe

12:44

that the transaction was done

12:46

and at the price that

12:48

was done at and the

12:50

amount of value was exchanged

12:52

at that transaction. And nobody

12:54

can influence that. It's purely

12:57

a process of complete volunteerism.

12:59

So what can be more

13:01

ethical than two parties? two mutually

13:03

consenting parties, agreeing to do

13:06

a transaction, and leaving a

13:08

public record of that transaction,

13:10

and knowing that public record

13:12

is an honest, truthful recognition

13:15

of that transaction, what could

13:17

be more ethical than that?

13:19

We first spoke about Bitcoin some

13:21

years ago. A few years ago, maybe six.

13:24

Four years ago. Four? I feel like

13:26

it was longer than that. What's

13:28

changed on the Bitcoin

13:30

landscape in that period

13:33

of time? Anything unexpected

13:35

happened that you didn't

13:37

predict or did things come

13:39

true that you thought might? I

13:42

think I think most of what

13:44

I predicted I think has has

13:46

my fear on what would happen

13:48

to the Bitcoin ecosystem is that

13:50

the people who would begin to

13:52

have, you know, early on a

13:55

Bitcoin you had people like this

13:57

guy. I might be mispronouncing his

13:59

name, Andrew. And so the early

14:01

Bitcoin community got attracted by lectures

14:03

like people like Andreas, but these

14:05

were people who gave lectures, they

14:08

put them on the YouTube, they

14:10

went around to small audiences, and

14:12

they gave deeply philosophical lectures on

14:15

what the nature of Bitcoin is.

14:17

And so the early Bitcoin community

14:19

got attracted by lectures like people

14:21

like Andreas, you know, some listening

14:24

to me. You know, I think

14:26

Andreas had larger audiences have larger

14:28

audiences than me. So, but there

14:30

were people who really believed in

14:33

the values of Bitcoin, not just

14:35

as a speculative investment, not as

14:37

it is a speculative asset. So,

14:39

something more than just a way

14:42

of accumulating wealth. So now, who

14:44

are the influential people or the

14:46

Michael Salers of the world? You

14:49

know, who want to custody of

14:51

Bitcoin, they want to buy it

14:53

on your behalf, they want to

14:55

convert it into a financial instrument,

14:57

and so they want to cooperate

15:00

with government. So the only value

15:02

of Bitcoin they really embrace is

15:04

its scarcity value and how that

15:06

scarcity value could make it as

15:08

an attractive investment. That's the only

15:10

attribute they... care about Bitcoin. And

15:13

my concern was that Wall Street

15:15

would take over the Bitcoin space

15:17

and they would promote they would

15:19

then promote the type of values

15:21

that sailor has promoted. That was

15:23

that was always my concern. And

15:26

I think I've been correct in

15:28

that concern. So how it's evolved

15:30

has not been a surprise to

15:32

me. It's been a disappointment to

15:34

me, but not an unexpected disappointment

15:36

to me. What's happened to the value

15:39

of a Bitcoin in the past four years?

15:41

I think when you

15:43

and I talked, Bitcoin

15:46

was, I guess

15:48

about 10% of

15:50

the price it

15:52

is today. So

15:54

Bitcoin has gone

15:56

up tremendously in

15:58

value. And I think

16:00

it's gone up tremendously in values

16:03

for, you know, I think the

16:05

reasons I articulated, you know, back

16:07

then, is the fact is that

16:09

the world is fiscally irresponsible, that

16:11

all fiat money regimes. end up

16:13

dying and they usually get replaced

16:15

by the best form of money

16:17

at that point in time. That

16:19

best form of money used to

16:21

be gold and Bitcoin has in

16:23

my opinion attributes much better than

16:25

gold. I was a gold person

16:27

years ago so before I was

16:29

a Bitcoin person. I was a

16:31

gold person, but once I got

16:33

exposed to the white paper, I

16:35

no longer was a gold person.

16:38

I immediately saw why, in my

16:40

opinion, gold. Bitcoin was far superior

16:42

to gold, and I think it's

16:44

far superior to gold. You know,

16:47

that I convert, I became,

16:49

from a gold person to a

16:51

Bitcoin person. I've

16:58

read projections that Bitcoin is

17:00

going to go from, let's

17:02

say, $107,000 or so per

17:05

coin for a high in

17:07

recent months to a

17:09

million dollars. Do you believe

17:11

that? What do you think?

17:13

Let me give a perspective

17:15

on this. If you take a look

17:18

at the market cap, what would

17:20

be, if right now you could

17:22

say the most credible money out

17:24

there? You know, not a statement I

17:27

agree with, but the marketplace does

17:29

is the US dollar. Okay, most

17:32

transactions are settled in dollars, many

17:34

people hold dollars, a lot more

17:36

people hold dollars than hold Bitcoin.

17:39

And then you could see what's

17:41

considered the second best form of

17:43

money, you might say, based upon

17:46

measuring the market cap, you know,

17:48

is gold. So given the fact

17:50

that I firmly believe that within

17:53

the next... you know, number of years,

17:55

you know, less than 10 years,

17:57

I think more people will embrace.

18:00

Bitcoin as the second best

18:02

money and that Bitcoin will pass

18:04

gold. So if you take a

18:06

look at the market cap of

18:08

gold, I think the price of

18:10

Bitcoin that would be equivalent to

18:12

the market price of gold is

18:14

probably around, I think, I think

18:16

one person told me recently that

18:18

I haven't checked it, but it

18:20

could be as high as like

18:22

$750, $80,000. So a Bitcoin price.

18:24

So if people believe that if

18:26

I don't want to hold dollars,

18:28

the next best thing is no

18:30

longer gold, but Bitcoin, you know,

18:33

then Bitcoin could easily go $550,000.

18:35

And we'll have to see, you

18:37

know, we've had something that we're

18:39

seeing discussion about now, is corporate

18:41

treasurers are now looking at. holding

18:44

some amount of Bitcoin. These are

18:46

people who never really held any

18:48

goals, but they're considering holding Bitcoin.

18:50

So in some respects, I could

18:53

say I'm happy about it because

18:55

this will drive up the price

18:57

of Bitcoin. In other things, I'm

18:59

not happy about it. Because who

19:02

I want to see adopt Bitcoin are individuals,

19:04

not companies. So, you know, the whole

19:06

idea is to build an ecosystem of

19:08

peer-to-peer. money where people can transact independent

19:10

of some third party participating in the

19:12

transaction. So people could be independent of

19:15

government. Yes, I want to, I want

19:17

to, I want to avoid, you know,

19:19

the government. I bought a place in

19:21

Mexico. And when I, when I went

19:23

to the buyer, the seller, I mean,

19:25

of the property that I bought, I

19:27

said, I want to, I want to

19:30

buy it in, I bought it in

19:32

tether. I don't, I don't ever get

19:34

rid of Bitcoin. So I had some,

19:36

I had some, I had tether, you

19:38

know, that I used for transactions. And

19:40

the guy, tether is USTT. So it's

19:42

called a stable coin. Okay. I don't,

19:45

it's, to me it's not crypto. Okay.

19:47

So I don't want any people to

19:49

use this. But the point, the point

19:51

of it is, is he asked me

19:53

why I didn't, I want to do

19:55

it this way. I want to do

19:57

a transaction. We got a bank. is

20:00

not involved in. I don't want to

20:02

go to a bank branch. I don't

20:04

want to have to give an explanation.

20:06

to some banker about why I'm doing

20:08

this, and then have them be a

20:11

judge whether I have a right to

20:13

do it or not have a right

20:15

to do it. This transaction between you

20:17

and I, and I don't want any

20:19

third parties involved, except for the notary

20:22

who needs to validate that this transaction,

20:24

has legal effect, that it's actually occurring.

20:26

So outside of the third party validating

20:28

that you're selling and I'm buying, I

20:30

don't want to have to give any

20:32

explanation. to anyone, I just want to

20:35

give you money, I want you to

20:37

accept it, and I made him feel

20:39

comfortable, and we did a transaction that

20:41

I was told was the first type

20:43

in Mexico, so I had to explain

20:46

it to the notary, and when the

20:48

notary asked me why am I doing

20:50

this transaction this way, you know, I

20:52

said, look at it, I'm going to

20:54

right now, I'm going to give the

20:57

buyer the money right now, in a

20:59

few minutes, it'll be... in their wallet and

21:01

we've done this all right here and

21:03

we haven't had to make any

21:06

third party a transaction to it

21:08

and the cost of me wiring

21:10

this quantity of money to this

21:12

person is cheaper than I would

21:14

have at the bank so it's

21:16

cheaper and faster and more convenient.

21:18

So when the notary sat and

21:20

experienced that transaction you know the

21:22

the notary was was was very

21:25

impressed with it. So, you know,

21:27

the world I want to see

21:29

is, you know, one of the

21:31

things I've also, you know, I

21:33

don't know how famous I am

21:35

for saying it, but, you know, I

21:37

say there's no such thing as a

21:40

trusted third party. So, you know, I

21:42

studied. You know, economics, the University of

21:44

Chicago, I got to know a number

21:47

of, you know, brilliant people there, including

21:49

Wattle Coast, you know, is the father

21:51

of what people call transaction cost economics,

21:54

you know, and basically we should engage

21:56

in transactions with people with as little

21:58

friction as possible. So to the extent

22:01

that we can get rid of a

22:03

third party in transactions, we can

22:05

eliminate friction in transactions, you know,

22:07

and facilitate a lower cost of

22:09

transactions. So then the question is,

22:11

what's, does a third party really

22:14

add value to the transaction or

22:16

not? And for us to exchange

22:18

value with one another, there shouldn't

22:20

be a reason why a third

22:22

party should bring value to that

22:25

transaction. So, you know, I don't

22:27

really like stable coins in the

22:29

sense. of they're expanding because stable

22:31

coins, the most popular stable coins

22:33

are collateralized by dollars, so they're

22:35

really expanding. You know, right now

22:37

today stable coins really help the

22:39

surveillance states because, you know, the

22:41

government is happy that these companies

22:43

that issue stable coins, you know,

22:45

share information on who when they

22:47

trade on exchanges or whatever, they

22:49

can now track people who are

22:52

not Americans. you know, who are

22:54

more transaction and stable coins. So

22:56

it gives the government even more surveillance

22:58

powers, you know, rather than less. But,

23:00

you know, I'm going to be surveilled

23:03

anyway. So at least I can at

23:05

least eliminate the bank from the transaction,

23:07

you know, and I consider the most

23:09

evil institutions as banks. So as Thomas

23:12

Jefferson and many of founders also believed

23:14

banks were amongst the most evil of

23:16

institutions. And I agree with that

23:19

assessment. There is always temptation.

23:21

these days for government to

23:23

get involved in things and

23:25

there's talk about them somehow

23:27

getting involved in regulating Bitcoin.

23:29

What should we look out for? on the

23:31

landscape do you think in the coming

23:33

decade? The government can't regulate

23:35

Bitcoin. Okay, Bitcoin is a

23:37

protocol, okay? So it's not

23:39

like the shit coins that

23:41

have been issued, you know,

23:43

where some group of people

23:45

created a foundation, they got

23:47

pre-minded compensation, which means they

23:49

got, they got to, they

23:51

rewarded themselves for just thinking

23:53

through the project, you know,

23:56

and and and and Bitcoin

23:58

is an, is an open

24:00

source. protocol. So there, Satoshi

24:02

said, here's Bitcoin, whoever wants

24:04

to go, and buy computer

24:06

equipment and mine them, there

24:08

was no barriers to entry

24:10

to doing so. And it's

24:12

not like Satoshi mined Bitcoin

24:14

the day after the paper

24:17

was published or rewarded he

24:19

or herself for Bitcoin for writing

24:21

the paper. No, it was a

24:23

couple of months later. that Satoshi

24:25

went out and mined bitcoins, the

24:27

Genesis block, and it could have

24:29

been anyone else, could have done

24:32

it at the same point at

24:34

time. So, Satoshi had no comparative

24:36

advantage, no special privileges associated with

24:38

it, and Satoshi had to work

24:40

as hard as anybody else to get

24:43

a Bitcoin. So, no privileges, no preferences,

24:45

no control rights, no governance rights, okay,

24:47

which is different than... You know, all

24:49

these other shit coins who wrote a

24:51

paper said, I'm going to build this,

24:54

I'm going to reward myself with a

24:56

lot of tokens, you know, you're going

24:58

to give me money to build it,

25:00

you know, you're not going to ask

25:03

any questions, you have no real role

25:05

in the governance, you're just going to

25:07

give me the money and trust it,

25:09

maybe I'll build it, maybe I won't,

25:12

you know, my incentive is that I

25:14

get all these tokens, you know,

25:16

if I did any securities are

25:18

regulated, they can't. be censorship resistant

25:21

and then they can't be permissionless

25:23

because the act of creating a

25:25

security requires permission you know and

25:27

it requires and it requires the

25:29

maintenance of that permission so if

25:31

maybe some party that engages in

25:33

a transaction you know is somebody

25:35

the US government doesn't like and

25:37

you know you're a security and

25:39

the government says reverse that transaction

25:41

you know or we're gonna delist

25:43

you as a security you'll then

25:46

you'll delist it. So if the

25:48

government says I want you to

25:50

share information, you'll share it. With Bitcoin,

25:52

there's no one to ask. There's no

25:54

controlling authority. So there's nobody for the

25:56

government to subpoena, not because we don't

25:59

know Satoshi exists. Satoshi exists, Satoshi

26:01

doesn't have that knowledge, even

26:03

if Satoshi existed, you can

26:05

subpoena Satoshi and say, tell

26:07

me what you know, but

26:09

ultimately it's a decentralized protocol

26:11

and Satoshi has no privileged

26:13

knowledge over anyone else over

26:15

the process of how that

26:17

block got created. So when

26:19

the government talks about looking

26:21

at regulations for electronic currency.

26:24

Are you saying they don't

26:26

understand they can't regulate Bitcoin

26:28

or they will be carving

26:30

Bitcoin out of the equation? I think

26:32

when they take a look at the

26:35

e- currency, you know, I remember when

26:37

there was a debate when the government

26:39

was taking a look at would Bitcoin

26:42

be considered a currency or would Bitcoin

26:44

be considered, you know, some sort of

26:46

asset or an intangible asset?

26:48

And a lot of people were

26:51

disappointed with Bitcoin, was not considered

26:53

a currency. you know, because it

26:56

would now, it would not be

26:58

regulated by the OCC. So the

27:00

production of bitcoins would not be

27:03

regulated, but the distribution of bitcoins

27:05

could then be regulated. So they

27:07

could make basically require people to...

27:10

acquire Bitcoin through regulated entities. That's

27:12

the risk to me. The risk

27:14

to me in the US at

27:16

least, and maybe other parts of

27:18

the world, you know, is that

27:20

people will say if you, you

27:23

know, like the Biden administration already

27:25

tried, is, you know, you can

27:27

own Bitcoin, you know, but you

27:29

have to have, you have to

27:31

have a third party wallet. They

27:33

could, they can consider US miners.

27:35

as financial intermediaries and regulate US

27:37

miners. So that's the regulatory. For

27:40

people to think there's no regulatory

27:42

threats, there are regulatory threats. But

27:44

the regulatory threat is not the

27:46

Bitcoin in and of itself. It's

27:48

to those who make part of

27:50

the ecosystem, how they could regulate

27:52

them. So they could regulate miners

27:54

by defining miners as financial intermediaries

27:56

and bring them under control OCC

27:58

or some other entities. or they

28:00

could create some new entity to do

28:02

that, you know, and they could regulate

28:04

who's permitted to, you know, that you're

28:07

not allowed to self-custity, so therefore they

28:09

can track all the movement. So, you

28:11

know, is there a risk that's going

28:13

to happen, you think? Well, I think

28:16

there's a great risk, it's going

28:18

to happen. What about under

28:20

President Trump, who has expressed

28:22

some support, I guess, just in

28:24

concept for Bitcoin, but does that

28:26

mean potentially less threat of regulation

28:29

or not? Right now, the

28:31

more the market cap of

28:33

Bitcoin grows, the more threat there

28:36

is to the dollar as

28:38

the reserve currency in

28:40

the world, the more likely

28:42

that the US government will

28:44

take action and hostile action.

28:46

against it. If you take

28:48

a look at like I

28:50

read yesterday that today in

28:52

the newspaper that Trump and

28:54

Trump has repeated this threat

28:56

several times about the brick

28:58

nations you know not having

29:01

them develop a parallel monetary

29:03

system and settlement system that

29:05

they have to commit to

29:07

keeping the dollars this national

29:09

settlement system or else he will

29:11

you know he says he wants

29:14

to be known as tariff man

29:16

so something like that. So Trump

29:18

understands the For his point of

29:21

view, the importance of preserving what

29:23

I describe as dollar hegemony, actually

29:25

there was references even made in

29:28

previous... In previous regimes, in the

29:30

even carrier, I don't know matter which

29:32

Democrats also said, you know, as we

29:34

have to be careful about all these

29:36

sanctions of countries, because if we sanction

29:39

too many countries, you know, then they're

29:41

going to create a parallel currency, you

29:43

know, and we will lose the tool

29:45

of dollar hegemony. And basically, as we

29:47

see in our foreign policy, we use

29:50

dollar hegemony very aggressively, you know, economic

29:52

sanctions. There's an important part. Our control

29:54

of swift, the international payment systems is

29:56

crucial to our ability. flick economic hardship

29:59

on countries. We want to inflict

30:01

harm symptom. It's a form of hegemony.

30:03

For me, it's an act of war.

30:05

I mean, so it's to me, it's

30:08

a violent act of war. I think

30:10

anyone who had their property taken away

30:12

from them or deprived their use

30:14

of their property will consider that

30:17

a very hostile act. If the

30:19

government were to take a hostile act, as

30:21

you say, against Bitcoin, would that

30:23

impact people who have Bitcoin

30:26

in terms of make the value

30:28

of their Bitcoin fall? from a

30:30

sense of weakness not of strength.

30:32

You know, there, you know, I

30:34

generally think a bully is a

30:36

coward, okay? So somebody who gives

30:38

us a bully to act, it's

30:40

an exposure of their weakness and

30:42

not the strength. So for me,

30:44

the more hostile the government gets

30:46

against Bitcoin. For those

30:48

that would be panic selling I'd be

30:50

buying and I think I would that

30:53

would just give me an opportunity of

30:55

making a lot more money off of

30:57

Bitcoin because I think ultimately the attributes

31:00

of Bitcoin will win. So do I

31:02

think that the government can sustain this

31:04

hostile attacks against Bitcoin? Can they preserve

31:07

dollar hegemony? No, I don't think dollar

31:09

hegemony will be able to preserve. I

31:11

think it could be we could buy

31:14

time. So the US can buy time,

31:16

but ultimately unless the US embraces fiscal

31:18

monetary or fiscal responsibility, you

31:20

know, the dollar will collapse

31:22

and something will replace it

31:24

and... you know, more and

31:26

more people will like Bitcoin.

31:28

And also the more and

31:31

more people that hold Bitcoin,

31:33

the harder it becomes for

31:35

them to take hostile action

31:37

against Bitcoin. You know, if

31:39

a hundred senators and 400

31:41

House of Representatives all on

31:43

Bitcoin, they're not going to

31:45

be enthusiastic about promoting regulation,

31:47

you know, that will impact, you

31:49

know, their pocketbook. So to the extent

31:51

that part of the hedge against, you

31:53

know, the government being too aggressive against

31:56

it is that many people

31:58

in Congress do recognize the

32:00

fragility of the dollar, you

32:02

know, and the appeal of,

32:04

you know, many of them

32:06

won't say it publicly, but

32:08

most of these people who

32:11

own, you know, Bitcoin in

32:13

Congress. buying it as a

32:15

hedge against fiscal and responsibility

32:17

of the U.S. government and

32:19

them understanding that our deficits

32:21

are unsustainable that politically they

32:24

can't do anything about it

32:26

so personally they get hedged

32:28

by owning some Bitcoin. You know

32:30

some members of Congress who

32:32

have Bitcoin? I don't want to

32:35

give names to people but yes

32:37

I know. Yes yes okay. Some

32:39

people have contacted me you know

32:41

with advice so so yeah I

32:43

know. I know a number of

32:45

people that don't own Bitcoin. Lastly,

32:47

for ordinary Americans who still don't

32:49

know much about this universe, what

32:51

would you advise them if they

32:53

were saying, what do you think

32:55

I ought to do? Last time you asked

32:58

me this question, I answered, I

33:00

think Bitcoin, people should always expect

33:02

Bitcoin, will be highly volatile. So

33:04

one is someone, first is no

33:06

one should invest in money they

33:08

can afford to lose. Somebody else

33:10

has to determine their own preferences

33:12

for risk and own talents for

33:14

risk. So if they feel compelled

33:17

to look at the price every

33:19

day and then when they see

33:21

a 10% 20% move, you know,

33:23

if that's going to give them

33:25

a heart attack, you know, then

33:27

they shouldn't own it. But as

33:29

long as they feel that they

33:31

have the stomach for some level

33:34

of risk can absorb... You know,

33:36

some losses and just can be

33:38

patient and know that over time

33:40

they will be more than fairly

33:42

compensated for that risk. You know,

33:45

everybody should own, you know, some

33:47

Bitcoin. You know, Bitcoin is the

33:49

best hedge against the collapse of

33:51

the fee at money regime. As

33:54

a likely outcome sometime in the

33:56

future without me being able to

33:58

predict exactly. when, because

34:01

the level of debt the world

34:03

has produced and the ability to

34:05

service that debt just doesn't exist.

34:07

The math doesn't intersect and something's

34:09

going to happen and it's not

34:11

going to be very good. And

34:13

then the question is, so I

34:16

don't view Bitcoin as an inflation

34:18

hedge, so I think the argument

34:20

that's an inflation hedge I think

34:22

is a stupid argument. I

34:27

think a dysfunctional

34:29

global financial environment, which is

34:31

basically every government has signed

34:33

on to basically the similar policies,

34:35

is borrow and spend, borrow

34:38

and spend, borrow and spend, borrow

34:40

and spend, borrow more and

34:42

spend, borrow even more and spend,

34:44

and borrow even more and

34:46

spend. So, I mean, even Trump

34:49

with, on the one hand,

34:51

you notice there's no talk about cutting

34:53

$2 trillion out of the budget this year.

34:55

I mean, Musk mentioned it. He and Vivek

34:57

went around. We're going to cut $2 trillion. Vivek

35:01

doesn't exist anymore in Doge

35:03

and Musk is not talking

35:05

about $2 trillion anymore. And

35:07

Trump asked that during the

35:09

duration of his presidency, there'd

35:11

be no debt ceiling. So, desiring

35:13

to eliminate the debt ceiling is not

35:15

an indication that I'm going to cut

35:17

government spending and I'm going to cut

35:19

the deficit. It's a recognition that I'm

35:21

likely to ingress the debt and I

35:23

don't want to have to have a

35:25

leverage in me reducing spending by the

35:27

fact that somebody could use the debt

35:29

ceiling against me to cut spending and

35:31

to cut the deficit in a way

35:33

I don't want to cut it. So,

35:35

to me, that signaling that the government

35:37

is saying is we value the right

35:39

to spend a lot more money very,

35:41

very highly. So, that's what

35:43

the government does. That's what

35:45

all the governments do. There's

35:48

a limit to how much

35:50

the U .S. can tax

35:52

people, tariff people, embrace surveillance

35:54

and all the other tax

35:56

issues to exercise dollar hegemony

35:58

for the you know, the

36:00

British kingdom thought they would, you know, what

36:02

was it, what they say, the sun never

36:04

sets on the British kingdom. That's what they

36:06

used to say, something like that, you know,

36:09

and the British economy started collapsing around the

36:11

time of World War One, but

36:13

the pound sterling remained the standard

36:15

until World War Two. So we were

36:17

in a pound sterling standard up

36:19

until, you know, people think maybe the

36:21

dollar standard was the global standard

36:23

for a long period of time. No,

36:25

this is a product, this is

36:27

a product of Brent Woods, you know,

36:29

that was post World War Two.

36:31

Prior to that, we won a sterling

36:33

standard, and the UK economy was

36:35

a basket case for 30, 35 years

36:37

before the sterling collapsed as the

36:39

global currency. So, you know, and British

36:41

never thought that they always thought that

36:43

forever they'd be on a, you know,

36:45

the pound sterling would be, you know,

36:48

as good as gold. It was the

36:50

reserve currency the world. So people, you

36:52

know, have a lot of hubris and

36:54

Americans think we'll always be the greatest,

36:56

and we'll always be the best, and,

36:58

you know, the dollar will always be

37:00

the standard. We can always apply, you

37:02

know, dollar hegemony, and I'm sure the

37:04

Ottomans thought the same thing, and the

37:06

Greeks thought the same thing, and the

37:09

Romans thought the same things, you know,

37:11

all these great civilizations thought that they

37:13

were going to be permanent, and none

37:15

of them have been permanent. And, you

37:17

know, it's the hubris that we get,

37:19

and the lack of appreciation for how

37:21

we got there, that ends up being

37:23

the downfall of everyone, and ultimately it

37:25

begins with the debasement of money. That's

37:27

the beginning of the end. So, we're

37:30

at the beginning of the end. I

37:32

think the less poking, the less money,

37:34

the less coin standing, you know,

37:36

will be Bitcoin, and it'll be worth

37:38

significantly more, and

37:41

unwinding this system will

37:44

be more difficult now than it

37:46

was in the past, because

37:48

it's so highly leveraged. It's so

37:50

highly leveraged through intermediaries that are

37:52

all guaranteed by the government.

37:54

So, you know, if the system

37:56

collapses, nobody's priced in

37:58

the value of the... government

38:00

guarantees to the financial system. So we

38:02

have the amount of debt that the

38:04

government has been issued. We have the

38:06

unfunded liabilities of Social Security, you know,

38:08

in Medicare. But now you have to

38:10

add to that, if we have a

38:13

collapse of the fee out money system,

38:15

what is the value the guarantees that

38:17

the government has to have regarding deposit

38:19

insurance? So the question is, is. One

38:21

is, what do I have to pay

38:23

off, if I only pay off insured

38:25

depositors? And how many losses will it

38:27

be in the system if I don't

38:29

pay off uninsured depositors? So nobody's giving

38:31

consideration to the fiscal financial course of

38:33

the US, you know, of that outcome

38:36

as well. So what will that drive

38:38

people to do? You know, maybe people

38:40

have limited access to their money. So

38:42

that could that it happened once. People

38:44

think this can't happen in this country

38:47

when it has happened. The US has

38:49

had plans where banks had holidays where

38:51

you couldn't get. You know, your demand

38:53

deposit does not entitle you to demand

38:55

whenever you want it. It entitles you

38:58

to demand within a 30 day period

39:00

of time, but a government, but the

39:02

bank has a right to not give

39:04

you the money when you demand authority

39:06

and the contract of a demand deposit.

39:08

So, and the US is default on

39:10

that before. You know, and it was,

39:12

it was one of the issues one

39:14

of the issues. that Roosevelt threatened the

39:16

Supreme Court to stack the court is

39:18

when he wanted to renounce gold clauses

39:20

and contracts. So when people had the

39:22

option of taking dollars or gold, when

39:24

the gold was at a premium to

39:27

the dollar, you know. that's when that's

39:29

when that's when Roosevelt said well we

39:31

don't want to honor we don't want

39:33

to get rid of our gold and

39:35

we don't want to pay at the

39:37

dollar at the gold value so we

39:39

just want to pay the dollar value

39:41

so that that represents a haircut of

39:44

about 2025% so people took a 2025%

39:46

haircut I would consider that a debt

39:48

that default I think most people who

39:50

who had two alternative payments getting a

39:52

hundred dollars in gold or 80 dollars

39:54

in cash you know would would view

39:56

that as a default. So we've deported

39:58

on our debt. You know, we've

40:00

compensated gold. You know, we've done

40:03

all these things in the financial

40:05

crisis and we tend to give

40:07

the president extraordinary powers to do

40:09

extraordinary things at this point in

40:11

time. And we should expect that

40:14

we have crises is that that's

40:16

what they'll do. So I think

40:18

the only protection we have

40:20

is what's ours. And right now, and

40:22

this could change, only Bitcoin has no

40:25

reporting obligations until you move it. Okay,

40:27

so if I buy Bitcoin, I don't

40:29

have to report it. Okay, if I

40:31

hold it, I don't have to report

40:33

it. You know, if I transfer from

40:35

one wallet to another, all under my

40:37

custody, I don't have to report it.

40:40

The day I transfer to a third

40:42

party and I get some other

40:44

form of compensation, then I have

40:46

to report the capital gain associated

40:48

with it. But as long as

40:50

I buy and hold, which is

40:52

what most, you know, quote, whales

40:54

do with Bitcoin, they buy and

40:56

they buy and holders. And if

40:58

the government imposes a reporting obligation,

41:00

you know, when China report, what

41:02

happened in China, when China's government

41:04

decided to make it more difficult

41:06

for minors, people left China. So

41:08

I assume that the type of

41:10

people that own a lot of

41:12

Bitcoin You know, if the government

41:14

becomes too restrictive, they'll move out

41:17

of the United States. The mining

41:19

will move out of the United

41:21

States, and the owners will move

41:23

out of the United States, and

41:25

there'll be other countries that are

41:27

hostile to the United States or

41:30

neutral to the United States, or

41:32

neutral to the United States, or

41:34

don't even not necessarily don't dislike

41:36

the United States, but don't like

41:38

dollar hegemony, that'll sit back and

41:40

say, we welcome you. kind of nomadic

41:43

in nature. So, you know, if you

41:45

ask like the founders like Ben Franklin

41:47

or people like that, they would say

41:49

the country they resided in was liberty.

41:51

So for them, in my opinion, the

41:54

US was an idea. Okay. And the

41:56

country and where they wanted to reside

41:58

was inside the country. of that idea

42:01

and that's how I see myself

42:03

as well. You know, I love

42:05

ideas. So I want to reason

42:07

my residence are my ideas. Okay,

42:09

wherever I'm geographically located is indifferent

42:12

to me, you know, my loyalty

42:14

to my ideas. So I don't

42:16

like to be disloyal, but my

42:19

prime loyalty are to my ideas

42:21

and my ideals. And I could

42:23

be anywhere. Warnock

42:29

and I kept talking after the

42:31

interview, and I learned a few

42:33

more things that might be interesting

42:35

to you. He says that 90% of

42:37

the Bitcoin have been mined, and that

42:40

the way the system is set up,

42:42

the last Bitcoin will be mined in

42:44

2140. It's going to take a

42:46

long time, because right now, every

42:49

two years, there's a havenning, as

42:51

he called it. which basically means that

42:53

by design as time goes on

42:55

it takes longer and longer to

42:57

produce a single Bitcoin and it

42:59

takes more computational power

43:01

each time. That's what he says keeps

43:04

the ecosystem secure, the computing

43:06

power to produce a Bitcoin. I

43:08

mean this is hard for me to

43:10

understand let alone explain if I

43:13

don't understand it really well, but

43:15

it was sort of an ingenious

43:17

design by the person or entities who

43:19

set this whole thing up. I mean, back

43:21

when it first started an individual

43:24

with a computer at home is

43:26

my understanding. Could mine or create

43:28

a Bitcoin? And the reward for

43:30

taking part in that process, the

43:33

way everything set up is, the

43:35

person, if they managed to solve

43:37

the algorithm or the mathematical problem

43:39

correctly, and create a Bitcoin,

43:42

the process also results

43:44

in validating transactions in

43:46

a blockchain technological way. and

43:48

the person who accomplishes it

43:50

is rewarded by being rewarded

43:53

with a Bitcoin. And I remember

43:55

way back when I never even heard

43:57

of a Bitcoin, my daughter was young.

44:00

and she was talking about it. She

44:02

had been awarded a Bitcoin, which

44:04

was value -less at the time, but

44:06

had been awarded Bitcoins or Bitcoin as part

44:08

of some kind of gaming website. And

44:11

I kind of scoffed at it. She tried

44:13

to explain it to me, and she

44:15

was actually trying to get on the computer

44:17

and solve algorithms and take part in

44:19

that process. Of course, years later,

44:21

I'm like, wow, she knew what she was doing. And

44:24

one of the scary things to me about Bitcoin

44:26

is if you keep it on what's called

44:28

a wallet like on your computer, but

44:31

you lose that computer or the key

44:33

code that gives you access to that

44:35

wallet, which is stored on the computer,

44:37

then you lose your Bitcoin and all

44:39

your money if that's how you've stored

44:41

it. Sure enough, a few

44:43

years ago, my daughter was

44:45

asking where all our old computers

44:47

were because she remembered that she

44:50

had a Bitcoin or Bitcoins that

44:52

had been value -less at the

44:54

time stored somewhere on some old computer,

44:56

which of course she could never

44:58

find. It's like having those old

45:00

comic books in perfect condition and that,

45:02

hearing years later, they're worth like

45:04

$100 ,000 or something, but you can't

45:06

find them. Anyway, again,

45:08

by design, the process of

45:10

computing and solving these algorithms becomes

45:13

more difficult so that Bitcoins are

45:15

made on a particular schedule that

45:17

slows down. And

45:19

while it used to be that you might

45:22

be able to mine or make a Bitcoin

45:24

on a home computer, after while,

45:26

it took supercomputers. And

45:29

now, apparently, these are like

45:31

communities of computers and actually

45:33

chips that are created specifically

45:36

to mine Bitcoin. And

45:38

it can take, if it's not done with

45:40

the right chips, if you've tried to

45:42

do it with computers, you can take a

45:44

tremendous amount of power. It's

45:46

my understanding something like they

45:48

talk about being required

45:50

for artificial intelligence. Anyway,

45:53

fascinating. I wish I understood it better, but

45:55

I hope that today's podcast shed some light

45:57

for you. I know it did for me. I

46:00

hope you enjoy today's podcast. And that

46:02

if you did, you'll leave a

46:04

terrific review, subscribe, and share it

46:06

with your friends, and check out

46:08

my other podcast, the Cheryl Atkinson

46:10

podcast. And if you haven't done

46:12

so already, I hope you will

46:15

look into buying my book, follow

46:17

the science, how big farmer misleads,

46:19

obscures, and prevails. It's on sale

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for half price at Amazon,

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proceeds, support, independent reporting. I

46:25

promise you. There are insider secrets in

46:28

this book that you've never heard, no

46:30

matter how well informed, you may

46:32

be on the issue of corruption

46:34

and compromise of our medical establishment,

46:36

medical schools, continuing medical education classes,

46:39

the studies that your doctors rely

46:41

on, practically everything that can be

46:44

touched by corruption, particularly of the

46:46

pharmaceutical industry, has been influenced or

46:48

touched by that. And as I

46:51

posit in the book as you'll

46:53

see, It explains a lot about

46:55

why we suffer from so many

46:58

chronic health disorders today that our

47:00

doctors for the past decade

47:02

or two seemingly don't even

47:04

notice, but for the chance

47:07

to treat these disorders with

47:09

expensive pills and potions. That's

47:11

follow the science. Do your

47:13

own research, make up your own

47:15

mind, think for yourself. How

47:26

many chronic health disorders today that

47:28

are doctors for the past

47:30

decade or two seemingly don't

47:32

even notice, but for the

47:34

chance to treat these disorders

47:36

with expensive pills and potions?

47:38

That's follow the science. Do

47:40

your own research, make up

47:42

your own mind, think for

47:45

yourself.