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in America. Hi everybody, Cheryl

0:32

Atkinson here. I hope you

0:34

enjoy this special from the

0:36

Archives edition of Full Measure

0:38

After Hours. Hi everybody, Cheryl

0:41

Atkinson here. Welcome to another

0:43

edition of Full Measure After

0:45

Hours. You know Cuba is America's

0:48

closest adversary in terms

0:50

of sheer proximity. Today

0:52

a visit to the

0:55

Communist Island Nation to

0:57

hear their government's view

0:59

of the longstanding U.S.

1:01

embargo, how it really

1:04

came about, Cuba's relationship

1:06

with China, threats to the

1:08

U.S., and what happens next.

1:11

Sunday, November 19th is my

1:13

cover story. on Cuba, post-Castro, and

1:15

the rocky relationship between Cuba and

1:17

the US, and what it's done

1:19

to Cuba and the Cuban people.

1:21

Why isn't we still have an embargo

1:24

against Cuba that cripples the communist

1:26

island and the people who live

1:28

there? Why do they get the tough

1:30

treatment that we don't give to

1:32

Communist China or Communist Vietnam, even

1:34

after Castro is long gone from

1:37

Cuba? In today's podcast, you're going

1:39

to get to hear the

1:42

modern Cuban government-government viewpoint. from

1:44

Carlos Fernando decosio, vice minister

1:46

of foreign affairs. I begin

1:48

by asking him what's his understanding

1:50

of what the US says would

1:53

have to change in Cuba for

1:55

the embargo to be lifted or

1:57

for there to be a different

1:59

economic relationship. Here is Carlos Fernando

2:01

DiCostio. The US has had a

2:04

changing goal post during the years.

2:06

Many years ago it was our

2:08

presence in Africa and solidarity with

2:10

the peoples of Africa, then that

2:12

we supported countries in Central America.

2:14

At another moment that we had

2:17

a relationship with the Soviet Union

2:19

that doesn't exist, it has been

2:21

changing the goal post. Then because

2:23

we didn't have enough internet. then

2:25

because we didn't have enough of

2:27

a private sector. So they changed

2:30

the goal post. The real aim

2:32

seems to be a failure by

2:34

powerful groups in the United States

2:36

to accept or to understand that

2:38

Cuba is and has the right

2:41

to be an independent country. And

2:43

there's an aim to control our

2:45

economy. Can you explain that in

2:47

sort of a summarized version, prior

2:49

to the change in the revolution

2:51

and so on? Cuba was almost

2:54

a satellite of the United States

2:56

for a time. Is that accurate?

2:58

Yes. We were a neo-collar in

3:00

the United States. They owned most

3:02

of the land, most of the

3:04

wealth, most of the utilities. They

3:07

had the capacity to put and

3:09

take out whichever government they existed.

3:11

And they were the ones who

3:13

legitimized what government could exist or

3:15

performing Cuba. What time period did

3:17

it change where the Cuban people

3:20

decided to make it where they

3:22

weren't? really such a satellite of

3:24

the United States, but more independent.

3:26

There was a growing spirit or

3:28

motivation by the population to change

3:31

that reality, but at the end

3:33

of the 50s and there was

3:35

a dictator called Foula ancient Wathista,

3:37

put in place by the US,

3:39

that dramatized things. It made it

3:41

critical and that led to a

3:44

rebellion that introduced a new government

3:46

set to transform the reality of

3:48

the country. Is it fair to

3:50

say you think that the United

3:52

States was... dramatically impacted by the

3:54

change in Cuba because a lot

3:57

of private companies had a lot

3:59

of business going on here and

4:01

and as a result the companies

4:03

were shut down and operations were

4:05

totally changed. The commitment to achieve

4:08

full independence, to regain the wealth

4:10

for the country, to ensure social

4:12

justice for the population, led us

4:14

to redistribute wealth and to redistribute

4:16

property in the country. Inevitably, it

4:18

put us in a collision course

4:21

with the US, not because of

4:23

design, but because the United States

4:25

was older, almost most of the

4:27

wealth in the country, including the

4:29

casinos, hotels and other facilities that

4:31

were owned by the mob in

4:34

the United States and that pulls

4:36

in a collision course. It seemed

4:38

to me over the years a

4:40

lot of discussion was over Fidel

4:42

Castro and the Castro's, but are

4:45

the Castro is entirely gone from

4:47

government now? Fidel Castro passed away

4:49

seven years, but he has been

4:51

out of the government for 17

4:53

years since 2006 and Raoul Castro

4:55

replaced him. is not president since

4:58

2018 and he doesn't even lead

5:00

the party since 2021. So even

5:02

though Raul Castro is recognized as

5:04

a meeting figure in the country,

5:06

he doesn't have a role in

5:08

the government beyond being a legislator,

5:11

but he has no active role

5:13

in the thing. So the excuse

5:15

of the United States, that the

5:17

Fidel Castro first and the Castro's

5:19

in pro, where the obstacle for

5:22

the relationship again has been proven

5:24

to be pretext, because they're not

5:26

in government anymore. and they continue

5:28

to have the same kind of

5:30

economic warfare against Cuba. What do

5:32

you suspect if you don't think

5:35

the true reasons or the reasons

5:37

given? What do you suspect are

5:39

the true reasons the United States

5:41

has the policies that it does?

5:43

In aim to control the fate

5:45

and the destination of Cuba, and

5:48

as I said at the beginning,

5:50

the failure to recognize that we

5:52

have the right to have our

5:54

own government in the way we

5:56

feel and to carry out a

5:59

system of... economy and policy which

6:01

ensures social justice, which we call

6:03

socialism. do it against the United

6:05

States, we do it for the

6:07

benefits of people of Cuba. Do

6:09

you see any merit to the

6:12

argument that in the United States

6:14

there may be concern with Cuba

6:16

so very close to our shores

6:18

that Cuba has close relationships with

6:20

countries that are considered adversaries such

6:22

as Russia and China? There's no

6:25

evidence to prove that. The US

6:27

government, the people in the government,

6:29

have raised it, but there's no

6:31

evidence of any hostile or offensive

6:33

activity by the Russia. China or

6:36

any country that the United States

6:38

would think is adversary against the

6:40

United States. The United States would

6:42

have taken action on it, it

6:44

hasn't occurred, but it serves an

6:46

excuse for those that do not

6:49

want any progress in the bilateral

6:51

relationship. Can you explain how the

6:53

Soviet relationship came to be when

6:55

the United States relationship changed? It

6:57

began when the US said that

6:59

they would not buy Cuban sugar

7:02

anymore. We didn't know where to

7:04

sell it. It was the only

7:06

crop that Cuba could export. And

7:08

the Soviet Union says, well, buy

7:10

it. So we sold it. Then

7:13

the US refused to sell oil.

7:15

And the Soviet said, we'll sell

7:17

you oil. Then the US companies

7:19

said, we won't refine. The refineries

7:21

that owned by the US and

7:23

Cuba refused to refine. So we

7:26

said, OK, we'll intervene then. And

7:28

so it came to help. So

7:30

it was a relationship that helped

7:32

Cuba at a moment where we

7:34

had nowhere where to turn. at

7:36

the time and they became quite

7:39

a good partner and that lasted

7:41

during the Soviet Union and that

7:43

kind of relationship ended in 1990

7:45

with the former Soviet Union. How

7:47

do you suspect Cuba would look

7:49

today if not for the embargo?

7:52

That's what we would like to

7:54

see. The US embargo or US

7:56

blockade as we call it is

7:58

today the main hurdle that we

8:00

need to overcome for our development

8:03

and for the progress of our

8:05

country. in spite of it existing

8:07

in outwithal. overwhelming impact for the

8:09

past 60 years. Cuba has been

8:11

able to excel in areas that

8:13

other countries have in, in terms

8:16

of scientific development, transformation of the

8:18

economy, well-being of the population, even

8:20

though Cubans, anyone who would visit

8:22

a country, would know that we

8:24

live a very modest life, that

8:26

our infrastructure needs, a lot of

8:29

investment in it, that we have

8:31

lots of problems or economy. What

8:33

I would push to it put

8:35

to a test, allow the US

8:37

to lift the embargo for just

8:40

two years. just two years and

8:42

measure what Cuba can be done.

8:44

In 2015 and 2016, the Obama

8:46

government introduced very limited exceptions to

8:48

the US economy blockade, and nobody

8:50

would argue that at the time

8:53

the Cuban economy flourished, that private

8:55

investment began to grow activity in

8:57

the country, that the standards of

8:59

living in the population grew, and

9:01

that was just three years with

9:03

very, very limited exceptions. So I

9:06

would put that to a test.

9:08

So you started to touch on

9:10

it, but can you just... Can

9:12

you describe the relationship with Cuba

9:14

under Obama, Trump, and Biden? At

9:17

the end of his administration, the

9:19

Obama government introduced changes. The most

9:21

important one was that it formalized

9:23

diplomatic relations that continued to exist

9:25

today. The Trump government didn't change

9:27

that. But then introduced very mild

9:30

exceptions in the overwhelming economic embargo

9:32

that had a positive impact. and

9:34

also progressed in the area of

9:36

cooperation of area for mutual interest.

9:38

The Trump administration set back those

9:40

exceptions, reduced the level of dialogue

9:43

between the two countries, and practically

9:45

shut down any cooperation between the

9:47

two governments. The Biden administration has

9:49

continued to apply the economic measures

9:51

of Donald Trump. In other words,

9:54

he has not reintroduced the exceptions

9:56

of the Obama government. But I

9:58

would say that it has rather...

10:00

applied with a lot of loyalty,

10:02

the measures taken by the Trump

10:04

government, but it has... has reintroduced

10:07

a level of diplomatic dialogue and

10:09

the channels of communication, which are

10:11

important, and restored some of the

10:13

areas of cooperation, basically migration, which

10:15

is of interest to both countries.

10:17

Law enforcement, environment, environment, including terrorism,

10:20

which is paradoxical because the United

10:22

States has Cuba in the list

10:24

of countries that allegedly sponsored tourism.

10:26

When did that go into effect?

10:28

11 days before the Trump administration

10:31

left the government. It refused the

10:33

pressure. It resisted the pressure to

10:35

do so until the end. But

10:37

the one that has been applying

10:39

the impact and the consequence of

10:41

being that list is a democratic

10:44

government, even though it shouted very

10:46

loudly when Trump reintroduced us in

10:48

that list. Does Cuba support terrorist

10:50

states or terrorist activities? We do

10:52

not. We condemn terrorism in all

10:54

its forms? by whoever practices it

10:57

for whatever reason in whatever way.

10:59

We have been a victim of

11:01

terrorism. We know what it means.

11:03

We have thousands of deaths and

11:05

people have been mutilated and damaged

11:08

to our country as a victim

11:10

of terrorism. So we condemn it.

11:12

We are very active cooperating in

11:14

all the foreign international forms and

11:16

we have signed any international instrument

11:18

linked to terrorism. Was a reason

11:21

given for the appearance of Cuba

11:23

on the terrorist list and was

11:25

a goalpost set for how to

11:27

get off of it? Yes, it

11:29

was because Cuba was adding Cuba,

11:31

a group of representatives of the

11:34

ELN, which is a guerrilla group

11:36

for Colombia, that were in Cuba,

11:38

upon a request of the Colombian

11:40

government for peace cooperation. And on

11:42

the basis of protocols that needed

11:45

to be met, Cuba was a

11:47

grant of that process, so we

11:49

had to respect them. When the

11:51

government of Colombia decided to suspend

11:53

the dialogues, they demanded for those

11:55

people to be returned. which they

11:58

are international protocols that we say.

12:00

Now we cannot go back on

12:02

that. We received the support of

12:04

Norway as a partner in the

12:06

law of anyone who participated in

12:08

the process, supported Cuba's position. And

12:11

thanks to that position, the new

12:13

governor of Colombia reintroduced a dialogue,

12:15

and they're going on now. Thanks

12:17

to Cuba's position. The Colombian government

12:19

has requested, the European Union has

12:21

requested, all of the governments of

12:24

Latin America and the Caribbean have

12:26

requested the US government to take

12:28

Cuba out of that. list and

12:30

yet because the excuse that was

12:32

used was proven false yet will

12:35

continue to be there and there's

12:37

no excuse today. How does that

12:39

further limit things beyond what they

12:41

were already limited? There is a

12:43

huge impact in Cuba and economic

12:45

activity in every country around the

12:48

world because no bank institution, no

12:50

financial institution would like to be

12:52

accused of being cooperating with a

12:54

country. that is in the list

12:56

of allegedly sponsoring terrorism. That would

12:58

have for them an impact in

13:01

the US economy or the threat

13:03

of having an impact. And that

13:05

has a... because the list is

13:07

totally arbitrary and has no legitimacy.

13:09

But the US economy has a

13:12

huge impact around the world. It

13:14

has a capacity to threaten and

13:16

to punish and others don't want

13:18

to run that risk. As

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14:30

Democrats and Republicans alike have

14:32

joined to criticize Cuba on

14:34

a number of fronts including

14:36

alleged human rights abuses. One

14:39

example they give is the

14:41

July 11th protests. They say

14:43

there are still many people

14:45

imprisoned unjustifiably. It

14:48

is difficult to gauge how many

14:50

people were on the street to

14:52

protest that day. Some say

14:54

1520, let's say 25,000. Most of

14:57

them did it peacefully. A small

14:59

group, maybe about a thousand.

15:01

Practice in vandalism,

15:04

violence, inciting violence,

15:06

inciting violence. attacking

15:08

police stations, burning cars. Those

15:11

were prosecuted. Most of them

15:13

went to jail. Not all. Most of

15:15

them went to jail. Because some receive

15:17

all the type of sanctions. Of those,

15:19

perhaps about half have already

15:21

been released. But it is not true

15:24

to claim that people were put in

15:26

prison because they went peacefully out

15:28

to protest or because the way they

15:30

thought. Because the great majority of

15:32

those never saw a policeman,

15:35

were never interrogated, never saw a

15:37

police station. It is a claim used

15:39

to try to punish Cuba and to

15:41

justify actions against Cuba. Some of them

15:43

remain in prison because a sentence have

15:46

not been, have gone through. But in

15:48

the US, on January 6th, many people

15:50

went to protest in the United

15:52

States. I would suspect the great

15:54

majority of them peacefully. They were

15:56

protesting the government and many have

15:59

been prosecuted. to be in center

16:01

jail. So with sentences as large

16:03

as 18 years without any violence

16:05

or critical violence being committed. So

16:07

why does the United States feel

16:10

it has the affords to condemn

16:12

Cuba and not look inside what

16:14

is happening in the United States?

16:16

And then on the issue, have

16:18

just a couple more questions. And

16:20

then if you want to add

16:23

anything I didn't touch upon, you

16:25

can add it. In the news

16:27

in the United States, there is

16:29

a lot about China and concerns

16:31

and allegations that China... has already

16:34

been operating some sort of base

16:36

or surveillance operation out of Cuba

16:38

and plans to have some sort

16:40

of larger operation out of Cuba.

16:42

Is that true? We, that came

16:44

out in a story that was

16:47

published by the Wall Street Journal

16:49

and that has been repeated. No

16:51

evidence has been put in place.

16:53

I mean, no evidence that is

16:55

true. It is totally untrue. We've

16:58

told the US government. We've spoken

17:00

with them. We said more. We

17:02

said that Cuba is a country

17:04

under aggression from the United States,

17:06

that we have the right to

17:08

defend ourselves, that we have the

17:11

right to establish defense cooperation with

17:13

other governments, and we don't have

17:15

to give excuses for that. Now,

17:17

that being understood, what has been

17:19

proclaimed, and then it's totally untrue.

17:22

It's a fabrication, again, as others

17:24

that have happened, the many that

17:26

have happened in history, to try

17:28

to... make it impossible for there

17:30

be progress in their relationship between

17:33

our two governments? Aside from a

17:35

defense cooperation or a supposed spy

17:37

base of some kind or military

17:39

base, is there increasing cooperation between

17:41

Cuba and China? China has really

17:43

made a lot of inroads in

17:46

many countries where the United States

17:48

has perhaps stepped back economically and

17:50

China has come in and provided

17:52

infrastructure help and all kinds of

17:54

things. Is that happening in Cuba

17:57

as well? It's happening perhaps in

17:59

a lesser level than other countries.

18:01

in Latin America, but it's a

18:03

good relationship. Most of our relationship

18:05

is trade. We buy a lot

18:07

of problems for industry in China.

18:10

If it couldn't move to buy

18:12

it in the United States, it's

18:14

much closer and perhaps cheaper. But

18:16

the US law is prohibited. We

18:18

have to buy a lot in

18:21

China. They give us financing. And

18:23

they have invested in some infrastructure,

18:25

for example, in an important plan

18:27

for edition for news, edition and

18:29

printing in. I think in the

18:31

rail, in some industries, but it's

18:34

a normal relationship, as we've had

18:36

with Canada, as we've had with

18:38

the European countries, as we would

18:40

happen with the United States if

18:42

it were to be possible. And

18:45

just say Cuba is not a

18:47

threat to the United States. Cuba

18:49

is not by far an enemy

18:51

of the United States. There's no

18:53

animosity. You can walk the streets

18:56

of Cuba, talk with our people.

18:58

And in spite of the difficult

19:00

relationship, despite of the hostility. that

19:02

we have been, that's what we

19:04

have suffered for many years. You

19:06

will not find animosity or ill

19:09

feeling from the people of Cuba

19:11

to Americans. Our two countries could

19:13

have a respectful relationship in spite

19:15

of our differences. And I would

19:17

think it would be beneficial for

19:20

Cuba without a doubt. And we

19:22

think it would be beneficial for

19:24

Americans to. What do you think

19:26

when you want what you know

19:28

of what's going on in America?

19:30

What are your reflections today? I

19:33

am very concerned with the lack

19:35

of information that Americans receive about

19:37

Cuba, how much distorted information they

19:39

receive, what's being packaged toward them,

19:41

and I think that there's a

19:44

level of contempt in the capacity

19:46

of US public opinion in interpreting

19:48

by themselves. And that is a

19:50

huge concern for us. It's difficult

19:52

for us to overcome that barrier.

19:54

and sometimes I see in the

19:57

US a society that is. Polarization

20:00

and violence is increasing and a

20:02

lot has to do in my

20:04

opinion, but this is a personal

20:07

opinion, with the increased concentration of

20:09

wealth in just one or two

20:11

percent of Americans that have grown

20:13

dramatically since 1980 until today. And

20:16

that's a huge problem that will

20:18

have consequences socially, politically, and different

20:20

terms. Americans will hear you say

20:22

one thing and the United States

20:25

government say something else. What are

20:27

they to make of the two

20:29

entirely different pictures being portrayed? They

20:31

would have to look at it

20:34

for themselves. Cubans are not prohibited

20:36

to travel to the US. Americans

20:38

are prohibited to travel to Cuba.

20:40

Americans should ask their government to

20:43

allow them to freely travel to

20:45

Cuba and allow them for themselves

20:47

to judge reality, not to have

20:49

to ask for permission to see

20:51

if it's granted or run the

20:54

risk. or being punished for exercising

20:56

the wish to visit other country

20:58

and learn by themselves. That was

21:00

Carlos Fernando Decosio, vice minister of

21:03

foreign affairs, who I met with

21:05

on a recent trip to Cuba.

21:07

We waited to Cuba's story. I

21:09

hope you enjoyed today's podcast and

21:12

that if you did, you'll leave

21:14

a great review, subscribe to this

21:16

podcast, and share it with your

21:18

friends. And if you like this

21:21

sort of material, check out my

21:23

other podcast, the Cheryl Akkison podcast.

21:25

The holidays will be here before

21:27

you know it, and I have

21:30

a great way that you can

21:32

support independent journalism and find cool

21:34

gifts for independent thinkers like you.

21:36

Go to Cherylakison.com and click on

21:39

the store tab. You'll see products

21:41

with clever slogans that show people

21:43

where you stand, such as, I

21:45

need to find some new conspiracy

21:48

theories. All my old ones came

21:50

true. and do your own research,

21:52

make up your own mind, think

21:54

for yourself. You