0:00

This is The Guardian. Hi,

0:02

Regid Ahmed here, coming

0:04

to you from Gatigawland.

0:06

Our new series about Gina Reinhart

0:08

has so far covered

0:10

her life, from growing up

0:12

in the Pilbra to becoming

0:15

Australia's richest person, as well

0:17

as the legal battles

0:19

she's fighting with her children.

0:22

But today the series turns

0:24

its attention to a

0:26

portrait of Gina Reinhart.

0:28

and why Australian swimmers decided they

0:30

needed to ask a gallery to

0:32

take it down. You can listen

0:34

to the whole series in its own

0:37

podcast feed by searching for Gina. Now,

0:39

here's host, Sarah Martin. Just

0:41

a warning before we begin. This

0:43

episode contains references to

0:46

outdated offensive language and

0:48

reference to events that

0:50

original and terrestrial islander

0:52

peoples may find distressing.

0:55

It also contains the

0:57

names of indigenous

0:59

Australians who've

1:01

died. Listen with care.

1:03

When people hear that

1:05

I work with First

1:08

Nations artists here in

1:10

Australia, they say, oh,

1:12

so they think about

1:14

Gina Reinhart in that

1:17

portrait. Do people often

1:19

complain about their portraits?

1:21

No. People

1:23

internationally have heard that

1:26

story, have seen the memes that

1:28

has been created, you know,

1:30

it's become a pop cultural

1:33

phenomena. Probably one of

1:35

the most circulated images

1:37

of an artwork in

1:39

recent time. It's Australia's

1:42

Mona Lisa now, right? Yeah, it

1:44

is, that's right. But you can't

1:46

get past the grimace. It

1:50

would be polite to say the painting

1:53

does not show Gina Reinhart's good

1:55

side. She's given an enlarged forehead

1:57

and several chins. It's certainly

1:59

not a nice... take on

2:02

Gina Reinhart and having met

2:04

her in person myself it

2:06

looks absolutely nothing like her.

2:09

There's something slightly uncomfortable about

2:11

the image which I think

2:14

has captured the imagination. From

2:16

Guardian Australia I'm Sarah Martin

2:19

and this is Gina. A

2:21

podcast series about Australia's richest

2:24

person. And what happens when

2:26

power intersects with other areas

2:29

of Australian life, like art

2:31

and sport? Is what Gina

2:34

Reinhart doing with Swimming Australia

2:36

sports washing in your view?

2:39

It's hard to think of

2:41

another label that's more appropriate.

2:44

So yes, I guess. It's

2:46

also about control. I think

2:49

it's no one tells Gina

2:51

Reinhart what to do, perhaps

2:54

it'll just got too messy

2:56

and difficult. the

3:00

Hancock family legacy.

3:02

This is long

3:04

overdue, this story,

3:06

and the parent

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5:25

It's quite a big work,

5:27

so it took up an

5:29

entire wall and was extremely

5:32

powerful. So the paintings each

5:34

are acrylic and very high

5:36

tone. Many of them capture

5:39

particular characteristic of the portrait

5:41

rather than trying to be

5:43

a full representation of all

5:46

of the parts of that

5:48

person and their image and

5:50

their image. There are images

5:53

of politicians like Julia and

5:55

there are images. of his

5:58

own family members, but they

6:00

all come together to create

6:02

the image that he understands

6:05

of what Australia is. It's

6:07

hectic, it's vibrant, it's beautiful,

6:09

it's ugly, it's all sorts

6:12

of things, it's messy. Like

6:14

a lot of Vincent's works,

6:16

it's naive, it has touches

6:19

of whimsy. But for me

6:21

it was just one of

6:23

that group of works and

6:26

knowing Vincent, knowing who he

6:28

is, knowing his character of

6:30

being so gentle, non-confrontational. It never

6:33

struck me as being an image

6:35

that was trying to really poke

6:37

fun at Gina. Australia and colour goes on

6:39

the wall at the NGA on the 2nd

6:41

of March 2024. And it obviously strikes a

6:44

nerve with Gina with a nerve with Gina.

6:46

And it obviously strikes a nerve

6:48

with Gina with Gina. And it obviously

6:50

strikes a nerve with Gina. A nerve

6:52

with a nerve with Gina with Gina

6:54

because about a month later she starts

6:57

writing letters. First she writes

6:59

to Ryan Stokes, a senior

7:01

executive in his father Kerry

7:03

Stokes's business empire and chair

7:05

of the NGA, and asks

7:07

him to permanently dispose of

7:09

the portrait. Stokes forwards this

7:11

letter to the NGA Director,

7:13

Nick Mitzovich. Gina Reinhart

7:15

then addresses both of them in

7:17

a letter dated April 15, obtained

7:20

by the media through Freedom of

7:22

Information. In it, Gina

7:24

says she was informed about the

7:26

portrait by a concerned friend. That

7:29

letter has been quite heavily redacted,

7:31

but we've had parts of it

7:33

read out by a voice actor. Dear

7:35

Ryan and Dr. Mitzvich, I've had

7:37

the pleasure of attending annual

7:40

functions for the National Art

7:42

Gallery several times, done fantastically,

7:45

very enjoyable, even uplifting. To

7:47

have a national art gallery that

7:49

presents the best our country has

7:51

to offer makes us proud of

7:53

our nation and inspires people, including

7:56

with outstanding artworks from other countries,

7:58

is, in my view, a very

8:00

worthy purpose. In my view,

8:02

and I believe that of

8:04

many, many good Australians, our

8:06

national gallery should plan differently.

8:08

Sincerely, Gina Reinhart. Meanwhile, staff

8:10

at the NGA start to

8:12

notice something. I remember I

8:14

was walking past the directorate

8:16

and the director called me

8:18

over and just said that

8:20

people had started to send

8:22

these email complaints. And what

8:24

was your initial reaction when

8:27

you heard of these complaints?

8:29

I just had a bit

8:31

of a giggle to be

8:33

honest. I don't think anyone

8:35

took them particularly seriously. All

8:37

up there were 26 complaints

8:39

received by email. They referred

8:41

to the portrait as offensive,

8:43

insulting and derogatory. They urged

8:45

the gallery to remove it.

8:47

And who were those complaints

8:49

from initially? Those complaints as

8:51

I understand it. that turned

8:53

out that most of them

8:55

were affiliated in some way

8:57

with Gina. So employees and

8:59

then of course more famously

9:01

members of the the Australian

9:03

swim team. About 20 of

9:05

those complaints come from Australia's

9:07

most elite swimmers. The names

9:09

of these individuals have also

9:11

been redacted but we do

9:13

know that the charge was

9:15

led by two people. The

9:17

first was Olympic gold medalist

9:19

Kyle Chalmers who said to

9:22

the Sydney Morning Herald, I

9:24

think she just deserves to

9:26

be praised and looked upon

9:28

definitely a lot better than

9:30

what the portraits have made

9:32

her out to be. Also

9:34

in the fray was the

9:36

head of swimming Queensland, Kevin

9:38

Hasman, interviewed here on ABC

9:40

radio. We were approached by

9:42

Kyle Chalmers with concerns about

9:44

the portrait itself. We confirmed

9:46

that... you know, the significant

9:48

number of swimmers felt that

9:50

way. And having seen the

9:52

portrait myself, it made sense

9:54

that we would respectfully, you

9:56

know, I emphasize respectfully, contact

9:58

the gallery. make them aware

10:00

of the way that we

10:02

were perceiving it and hope

10:04

that they might consider taking

10:06

it down. What is wrong?

10:08

with the portrait and how

10:10

it's perceived. Why are you

10:12

worried about how a portrait

10:14

by a recognised artist is

10:17

perceived? Kevin has been. Look,

10:19

I'm a sports administrator, so

10:21

art is turning up my

10:23

forte, but I guess from

10:25

a simple perspective that offences,

10:27

events and society these days,

10:29

I guess, is riddled with

10:31

complaints of some of an

10:33

offending somebody else. And

10:37

then it sort of

10:39

became quite an interesting

10:41

cultural phenomenon. In news

10:43

from down under a

10:45

billionaire has called for

10:47

the removal of an

10:50

unflattering portrait of her

10:52

from the National Gallery

10:54

of Australia. But I

10:56

mean, come on, how

10:58

unflattering could this portrait

11:00

possibly okay? Okay,

11:02

I got a story. By

11:04

the 20th of May, the

11:07

portrait had gone viral. Gina's

11:09

attempts to erase it had

11:11

done the complete opposite. Let's

11:13

have a look at the

11:16

portrait. What's the problem? Why

11:18

doesn't she like that portrait?

11:20

Oh, I see why she's

11:22

mad. They left off the

11:25

pearls. There you go. And

11:27

by the end of May,

11:29

the controversy had even made

11:31

its way to the Senate.

11:34

Yes. Adding to the saga

11:36

was the fact that Gina

11:38

had also gifted a portrait

11:40

of herself to the National

11:43

Portrait Gallery. Oh, right. So

11:45

she would like this one

11:47

hung. But only in a

11:49

particular way. Yes. Uh-huh. For

11:52

a National Gallery to take

11:54

a painting off the wall

11:56

because somebody thought it was

11:58

unflattering would be a very...

12:01

big statement to make against

12:03

an artist. So I don't think

12:05

that there was for

12:07

any second a real

12:09

contemplation of taking the

12:11

work off the war. And

12:14

what happened with visitor

12:16

numbers to the gallery? The

12:18

show blew up. People were

12:20

coming in to see the

12:22

work. So I think, you

12:24

know, it backfired really. A

12:28

spokesperson for Hancock prospecting provided

12:30

us with the following comment.

12:33

In relation to the portrait, it

12:35

is correct that our taxpayer-funded

12:37

National Gallery chose to depict

12:40

Australia's most successful business person

12:42

and huge contributor to our

12:44

country in a demeaning way.

12:47

Australian taxpayers deserve better from

12:49

a national institution, one that

12:52

should celebrate achievement and contribution

12:54

to our country. President Mille

12:56

of Argentina puts this more

12:59

succinctly. The modern state has

13:01

more than enough tools, which

13:03

have grown in sophistication over

13:06

time. We are not

13:08

talking about an obvious

13:10

state, like the neo-fascist

13:12

or communist one, but

13:14

rather a subtle and

13:16

insidious state, which advances

13:18

on the individual through

13:21

art, propaganda, and cultural

13:23

infiltration. We need

13:25

to contextualize how significant

13:27

Gena Reinhart's relationship has

13:29

been to Australian sport. To

13:32

understand why it was swimmers coming

13:34

to Gena's defence, first you need

13:36

to understand that Gena Reinhart is

13:38

the largest private funder of swimming

13:41

this country has ever seen.

13:43

Gena Reinhart and her company

13:45

Hancock Prospecting have single-handedly contributed

13:47

to medals, gold medals at

13:50

Australian Olympic Games. That is

13:52

very clear. Karen Pender is a

13:54

contributor to Guardian Australia. I've had a long

13:56

time interest in how sport is funded and I've

13:58

written a lot about the the way the

14:01

government funds, high-performance sport in

14:03

Australia. And I'd often at

14:05

swim meets, at swimming Australia,

14:07

swim meets, see the Hancock

14:09

prospecting logo. So Gina's journey

14:11

with swimming Australia actually begins

14:13

at one of the sports

14:15

lowest points. She had a

14:18

history of sponsoring swimming in

14:20

her home state of Western

14:22

Australia, but it was at

14:24

the 2012 London Olympics Olympics.

14:26

and listeners may remember that

14:28

was an infamous Olympics from

14:30

an Australian swim perspective, Australia

14:32

very badly in the pool

14:35

and there was the still

14:37

knocks scandal. Your team members

14:39

are accused of bullying, abusing

14:41

alcohol and prescription drugs. After

14:43

some of our top swimmers

14:45

admitted to using the banned

14:47

sleeping pill still knocks in

14:49

the lead-up to the London

14:51

Olympics. That led

14:54

to an exodus of support

14:56

for swimming Australia. A lot

14:58

of swimmers were in a

15:00

difficult position financially, and Reinhart

15:02

and her company step in

15:04

to feel that gap at

15:06

a moment when otherwise swimming

15:08

is in a real black

15:10

hole. Since 2012, it's reported

15:12

that Gina has poured somewhere

15:14

between 60 and 70 million

15:16

dollars into the sport. She's

15:18

also funded rowing, volleyball and

15:20

artistic swimming. The

15:23

sports that she's chosen to support,

15:25

they are not major commercial players

15:28

in Australian sport. They're really often

15:30

boom and bust sports in that

15:32

they are very popular at the

15:34

Olympics and then that popular interest

15:37

wanes outside the Olympic cycle. And

15:39

although there is a significant amount

15:41

of government funding in sport, that's

15:43

spread across 40-50 sports and has

15:46

sort of come and gone at

15:48

different points. But

15:50

Gina isn't funding these sports

15:52

the way most sponsors do.

15:55

Usually a sponsor would give

15:57

money to some sort of

15:59

peak body and then that

16:02

body divides that money. between

16:04

athletes, costs, equipment and so

16:06

on. But instead... Ryan Hart

16:08

and Hancock Prospecting have set

16:11

up these schemes for swimming,

16:13

for a couple other sports,

16:15

where there is direct salary

16:18

amounts, not going to the

16:20

sporting federation and then sort

16:22

of indirectly paying the wages

16:25

of athletes. We've seen reports

16:27

that... up to $30,000 a

16:29

year is being paid directly

16:31

to athletes in swimming and

16:34

in rowing. Additionally, that's been

16:36

topped up by a medal

16:38

bonus scheme where again gold

16:41

medals, world records and so

16:43

on fetch $20,000, and it

16:45

means that there's a closer

16:48

relationship because she and her

16:50

company are literally putting money

16:52

in the pockets of Australian

16:55

athletes. There's of course no

16:57

rules being broken here. Any

16:59

benefactor could do this. There's

17:01

a strangely personal relationship between

17:04

the benefactor and those enjoying

17:06

that financial support. She's literally

17:08

paying their salaries. With the

17:11

dark days of London behind

17:13

them, Australia's swimming team with

17:15

a fresh injection of cash,

17:18

head into a new era

17:20

in the pool. their new

17:22

patron beside them. Australia had

17:24

an improved performance in Rio,

17:27

but it was really in

17:29

the last two Olympics that

17:31

the Australian swim team has

17:34

proven themselves to be really

17:36

equal with the United States

17:38

as the best in the

17:41

world. At the Tokyo Olympics

17:43

in 2020, Gina waives the

17:45

team off at the airport.

17:47

She designed pearl jewelry for

17:50

the female athletes. She personally

17:52

gave the male athlete's iPads.

17:54

They bring back a total

17:57

of 21 medals, including nine

17:59

goals. At Paris, it's more

18:01

success. The team knabs 18

18:04

medals, 7 gold. Australians love

18:06

winning gold at the Olympics. I

18:08

mean, I was in Paris. It

18:10

was amazing. And Gina is

18:13

everywhere. We wouldn't be more

18:15

proud. How could any of us

18:17

want to Australia be more proud

18:19

of our Olympians than we are

18:21

right now? I mean, lots don't

18:24

understand the work that goes here,

18:26

but I know a little bit of

18:28

that background. It was the talk

18:30

of the pool that every night

18:32

she was hosting a box at

18:34

the swimming she hosted the athletes

18:36

on a river cruise on the

18:38

sand. Hosted on the luxury yacht

18:41

the swimmers are dagged out in

18:43

gold rosy boots a get from

18:45

Gina and the company she owns.

18:48

So just have a great night

18:50

it's wonderful to be with you.

18:52

Animal's picture of the letter above

18:55

the menu. Okay well I think

18:57

we should start getting it. She's

19:00

clearly enjoyed being part

19:02

of the Australian Olympic

19:04

movement. There is a

19:06

clear correlation between sports

19:08

funding and high performance

19:11

achievement. Of course, sometimes

19:13

you have amazing stories

19:15

where people with no funding go

19:17

on to win gold. but one

19:20

of the reasons Australia performs well

19:22

above its population size in Olympic

19:24

sport is because we pour huge

19:26

amounts of money relative to other

19:28

countries into sport and so if

19:31

you're not paying athletes well to

19:33

do what they'll do they'll do

19:35

other things and swimmers have said that

19:37

swimmers have admitted that this funding is

19:39

one reason why they can stay. It's

19:42

absolutely incredible. She's such a generous lady,

19:44

not only through her support financially, but

19:46

she just gives so much time to

19:48

our athletes. Mrs. Reinhart, thank you for

19:50

letting us follow our dreams and just

19:52

do what we love and to the

19:55

team. Basically, she makes it possible for

19:57

us to be able to do what

19:59

we need. love. Swimming really is

20:01

a full-time job. She wants

20:03

to be involved. She's such

20:05

a caring and supportive lady.

20:07

She's single-handedly, she's been supporting

20:09

the swim team for about

20:12

10 years now. The Paralympic

20:14

team as well. There's been

20:16

a lot of talk in

20:18

recent years about sports washing.

20:20

Why does any company sponsor

20:22

a team or brand because

20:24

of the benefits of association?

20:30

It's a hard thing as

20:32

an athlete because you know

20:34

that sponsors are paying the

20:36

bills. David Pocock is a

20:38

former captain of the National

20:40

Rugby Union team, the Wallabies,

20:43

and a current independent senator

20:45

for Canberra. I wanted to

20:47

talk to him because not

20:49

only is he a former

20:51

athlete, but he's a politician

20:53

who's looked at this tension

20:55

between sponsorship of sport and

20:57

athletes. This

20:59

comes down to what Australians

21:01

value and want the government

21:04

to be funding. If we

21:06

do love watching our swimmers

21:09

and other athletes on the

21:11

world stage representing us breaking

21:13

world records, doing Australia proud,

21:16

then we need to actually

21:18

fund these sports and fund

21:21

these athletes properly. But at

21:23

the moment there just hasn't

21:25

been the political will to...

21:28

give these athletes any sort

21:30

of stipend or income that

21:33

they can actually live on

21:35

while they dedicate so much

21:37

of their life to their

21:40

sport. And so, you know,

21:42

individuals like Gina Ryanhart, step

21:45

in and fill that void.

21:47

And you cannot say that

21:49

it hasn't made an enormous

21:52

difference to the Australian swimming

21:54

team and the rowing team.

21:57

We've seen record... numbers of

21:59

medals, one, we've seen a

22:01

whole bunch of swimmers who

22:04

usually would have written... tired,

22:06

able to go to that

22:09

next Olympics and show people

22:11

what they can do with

22:13

more experience under their belt.

22:16

So swimming's definitely benefited from

22:18

it and I guess as

22:21

a country it's up to

22:23

us to decide should we

22:25

leave them to the point

22:28

where they have to be

22:30

funded like this? And what

22:33

are the ethical considerations when

22:35

you have funding? My biggest

22:37

concerns are... around the influence

22:40

that she has and her

22:42

views on climate change and

22:45

sort of winding back environmental

22:47

regulation, which we're all and

22:49

particularly young people are going

22:52

to face the consequences of.

22:54

Without this support the financial

22:57

burden usually falls on their

22:59

families, especially parents, who make

23:01

enormous personal sacrifices to fund

23:04

training, travel and competition costs

23:06

so their children can represent

23:09

Australia. Our support is not

23:11

about self-publicity or so-called sports

23:13

washing. It's about our athletes

23:16

having the opportunity to represent

23:18

our nation to the best

23:21

of their ability. When

23:26

you have that sponsor stepping into

23:28

that void, as you mention, where

23:30

does that leave athletes if they

23:33

wanted to back a social or

23:35

environmental issue like climate change or

23:37

marriage equality or the indigenous voice

23:39

to Parliament, for example? If you've

23:41

got a sponsor who's got very

23:44

well-known views on those issues, where

23:46

does that leave the athlete? Well,

23:48

I think you'd be in a

23:50

very tight spot if you wanted

23:52

to... keep that money, which was

23:55

potentially allowing you to do the

23:57

thing that you had dreamt of

23:59

doing. or

24:02

make public comment

24:04

or make a

24:06

stand on something

24:08

that you thought was

24:10

really important to

24:13

you and people

24:15

who had supported

24:17

you and what

24:19

you think is

24:22

good for your

24:24

community and ultimately

24:26

Australia. So. There

24:28

was a controversy

24:30

a few years

24:32

earlier involving Gina,

24:34

Herbilians and sport

24:36

that demonstrates the potential

24:39

for conflict. Oh gosh,

24:41

okay. So I'm Linda

24:43

Pierce. I wrote my first

24:46

netball story in the 1980s.

24:48

I still write about netball

24:50

today. And yeah, I've been

24:53

doing this as long as I

24:55

can remember, basically.

24:57

Linda Pierce is a sports journalist

24:59

for code sports. You're a

25:01

netball tragic is what you're

25:03

saying. Possibly, possibly. In 2022,

25:06

the sport of netball dominates

25:08

the national conversation and the

25:10

name in every headline was

25:12

Denel Wollum, a Nunga woman

25:14

from Western Australia. She's a

25:16

gold shooter. So first of all, let's

25:19

go to Denel. Can you describe Denel

25:21

Wollum as a player? She's an exciting

25:23

player. She's come from a basketball background,

25:25

so she's got a bit of flair.

25:28

She isn't afraid to take a long

25:30

shot. She's passionate. And she certainly didn't

25:32

come through the development pathway of netball

25:34

Australia like most of the diamonds that

25:36

we see. She grew up two hours

25:39

south of Perth in a little town

25:41

called Harvey. And she just was sort

25:43

of freewheeling in a footy netball league

25:45

when she got spotted. God suggested to

25:47

her she should be playing at state

25:50

league level. She doubted she was good

25:52

enough. She arrived to one two league

25:54

MVPs. Next thing she's at the Lees

25:56

Rinos having never before left Western Australia,

25:59

let alone Australia. and killing it

26:01

over there. So in April that

26:03

year, Janelle gets the nod, an

26:05

official call-up to play for the

26:07

diamonds at the end of the

26:09

year, becoming just the third indigenous

26:11

woman to be called up for

26:14

the national squad. But it comes

26:16

at a very rocky time for

26:18

the sport, because much like swimming

26:20

did after the London Olympics, Nepal

26:22

Australia was in need of a

26:24

sponsor. Netball was on its knees

26:27

financially, there was four million dollars

26:29

in debt, there was talk of

26:31

maybe the sport goes under, which

26:33

I never thought was even a

26:35

vague possibility, but still that was

26:37

the narrative. Netball Australia signs a

26:40

deal in September with Hancock prospecting

26:42

for 15 million dollars over four

26:44

years. And so the diamonds were

26:46

set to have the Hancock prospecting

26:48

logo emblazoned onto their dresses. That's

26:50

supposed to happen in a test

26:53

match against New Zealand. Denell is

26:55

slated to travel with the team,

26:57

but not to play. In the

26:59

lead-up to those games, the players

27:01

hold a training session in Canberra.

27:03

And at a player's only beating,

27:06

Denell says to her teammates that

27:08

she's uncomfortable with the idea of

27:10

playing with the Hancock prospecting logo

27:12

on her uniform, because of comments

27:14

made by the late Lang Hancock,

27:16

Gina's dad. These comments, broadcast in

27:19

the 80s, were highly racist. In

27:21

an interview, Lange spoke callously about

27:23

sterilizing indigenous Australians. And just a

27:25

warning, if you haven't heard them

27:27

before, you should know that his

27:29

views and his comments are very

27:31

confronting. Those that have been assimilated

27:34

into earning good living or earning

27:36

wages amongst the civilised areas that

27:38

have been accepted into society and

27:40

they have accepted society and can

27:42

handle society, I'd leave them well

27:44

alone. The ones that are no

27:47

good to themselves and can't accept

27:49

things, the half cast, and this

27:51

is where most of the trouble

27:53

come, I would doubt the water

27:55

up so that they were sterile

27:57

and would breed themselves out in

28:00

future. solve the problem. And then

28:02

it emerged that there had

28:04

been exemptions granted to other

28:07

players in different sports in

28:09

the past. So that was

28:11

something that was worth exploring.

28:13

And when Denel got up

28:16

in front of her teammates

28:18

and said that she would

28:20

be interested in seeking an

28:22

exemption, they basically said to

28:24

her that She had been

28:26

marginalised her whole life and

28:29

they weren't going to abandon her

28:31

now. They would wear what she

28:33

wore and so she didn't wear

28:35

the Hancock prospecting logo they would

28:37

stand with her. It would have

28:39

been, I can't imagine how much

28:42

strength that took to be honest

28:44

and I also can't imagine that

28:46

she would have envisaged the storm

28:48

that ensued. The news gets out

28:50

before Danelle even plays her first

28:53

game. Conservative media is

28:55

outraged. This is how it

28:57

supposed to work. Fortunate Australians

29:00

are supposed to help less

29:02

fortunate Australians and passionate

29:04

Australians are supposed to

29:06

give something for us to cheer

29:09

for. But netball, at least some

29:11

of the players, don't want her

29:13

money. Well Gina Reinhart has been

29:16

able to do for swimming she

29:18

can do for netball. She should

29:20

be allowed to do it and

29:22

you should enthusiastically cheer on. Yes.

29:24

There are people everywhere saying, who do

29:26

they think they are? These netballers. I

29:28

mean, the sports got no money. Why

29:30

would they think that they can sink

29:33

a deal like this? You know, they

29:35

get off their high horse. All of

29:37

these sorts of things. It was completely

29:39

unfair in my book. Under

29:41

immense pressure and seeking to

29:43

diffuse the situation, Danielle actually

29:45

agrees to wear the uniform

29:47

with the logo, but the

29:49

concession comes too late. In

29:51

October, Gina and Hancock prospecting

29:53

decide to walk away from

29:55

the deal and take their

29:57

$15 million with them. What

30:00

do they say, go woke and

30:02

you go broke, right? And isn't

30:04

Netball Australia about to learn that

30:07

the hard way? Gina's Roy Hill

30:09

Mine also stopped sponsoring Netball-WA and

30:11

the Super Netball team, the West

30:13

Coast fever. In a statement released

30:16

at the time, Hancock prospecting included

30:18

the following, which we've had read

30:20

out by a voice actor. Contrary

30:22

to recent media Hancock has not

30:25

insisted that its name be worn

30:27

by the Australian Diamonds in the

30:29

current Constellation Cup series when overseas

30:31

and was advised that the netballers

30:34

had no concerns in wearing the

30:36

name on the team dress for

30:38

the series. Hancock and Roy Hill

30:40

do not wish to add to

30:43

netball's disunity problems and accordingly Hancock

30:45

has advised netball Australia that it

30:47

has withdrawn from its proposed partnership

30:50

effective immediately. And

30:54

how were players feeling at that

30:57

moment when Gina Reinhart announces that

30:59

she's walking with her $15 million?

31:01

I think they're pretty stunned. I

31:04

think they still thought there would

31:06

be a way to fix this

31:08

or a way to just find

31:11

a solution that worked for everybody,

31:13

given that Danielle had actually said,

31:15

I'll wear the dress. And

31:20

so it's among all this in the

31:23

eye of this media cyclone and in

31:25

the fallout of the retractor's sponsorship that

31:27

Danelle's debut finally arrives. It's in Newcastle.

31:30

Everyone's expecting it to be quite an

31:32

emotional game. There's stories, should she start?

31:34

Or is that too much pressure? Should

31:36

she just come on late when the

31:39

pressure's off? In the end she came

31:41

on in the last quarter and scored

31:43

the winning goal with her layup and

31:46

there wasn't a dry eye anywhere at

31:48

that point. It was a real Hollywood

31:50

script finish. And

32:00

so what's your best read

32:02

on why she walked and

32:04

pulled the 15 million? I

32:06

think it's no one tells

32:08

Gina Reinhart what to do,

32:10

perhaps. I think it's it

32:12

all just got too messy

32:14

and difficult. I just think

32:16

they wanted to make a

32:19

statement about we were going

32:21

to give you all this

32:23

money and you didn't play

32:25

ball. Both the netball saga

32:27

and the swimming saga can

32:29

be seen as exercises in

32:31

power Who has it and

32:33

who doesn't in the case

32:35

of Gina as the country's

32:37

wealthiest person? It's pretty obvious.

32:39

She has a lot of

32:41

power and I think it's

32:43

clear what she wants you

32:45

to look at and what

32:48

she'd rather you not see

32:50

But Vincent Amagira the artist

32:52

who painted that portrait He's

32:54

trying to get you to

32:56

look at something too is

32:58

a portrait of my experience

33:00

and influences. I have painted

33:02

significant people who have had

33:04

an influence on me, whether

33:06

directly or indirectly, whether for

33:08

good or for bad. It's

33:10

also a portrait of the

33:12

way I see Australia. People

33:14

who have shaped this country

33:17

for better or worse, in

33:19

small or large ways. Yeah,

33:23

so Vincent's often talked about

33:26

the idea of power and

33:28

relationships and who holds the

33:30

power, but the act of

33:32

painting these people means that,

33:35

you know, they're no longer

33:37

that person. They're essentially just

33:39

paint on a canvas. So

33:41

everybody is equal when they

33:44

are painted on a canvas.

33:46

Vincent talking about the frenzy

33:48

said people didn't have to

33:50

like his paintings, but he

33:53

hoped that they took the

33:55

time to look. and think,

33:57

why has this aboriginal bloke

33:59

painted these powerful people? What

34:01

is he trying to say?

34:04

For you, what's the answer

34:06

to that question? And will

34:08

the answer to that question

34:10

be different for everyone who

34:13

views the work? I think

34:15

the answer will be different

34:17

for a lot of people,

34:19

but probably hopefully have the

34:22

same baseline. So of course

34:24

for me, I understand the

34:26

power and privilege of the

34:28

colonial history of this country,

34:31

the way that Aboriginal people

34:33

have been dispossessed, the way

34:35

that, you know, within Vincent's

34:37

own family. Because Vincent's great-grandfather

34:40

was Albert Namatira. one of

34:42

Australia's most famous and celebrated

34:44

artists, known for his watercolours

34:46

of ghost gums, gorges and

34:49

red mountain ranges. Those incredible

34:51

landscapes of Central Australia, they

34:53

were so popular at one

34:55

point that they were in

34:58

every government building, schools, hospitals,

35:00

everywhere. But Namatjira was one

35:02

of the most... popular figures

35:04

in the country during his

35:07

day and age. You know,

35:09

he had a street parade

35:11

through Sydney when he visited.

35:13

He was on the cover

35:16

of women's weekly or whatever

35:18

it was called in the

35:20

1950s. He'd reached this popular

35:22

consciousness. But he was not

35:25

wealthy. He was denied the

35:27

ability to purchase land or

35:29

build a house. He wasn't

35:31

able to control his own

35:34

affairs or accumulate his own

35:36

wealth. He couldn't. by the

35:38

properties that he wanted to

35:40

create intergenerational prosperity within his

35:43

own family. In 1957 Namatira

35:45

became the first Aboriginal person

35:47

to be granted conditional Australian

35:49

citizenship. In 1958 he was

35:51

charged with supplying alcohol to

35:54

Aboriginal people and spent two

35:56

months in prison. He died

35:58

the following year. In 1983,

36:00

the copyright to his work

36:03

was even removed from his

36:05

family, and it wasn't restored

36:07

until 2017. During that time,

36:09

his family members received no

36:12

royalties from the sale of

36:14

his work. And so Albert

36:16

was not able to create

36:18

any intergenerational wealth. Furthermore, Vincent

36:21

wasn't even aware of his

36:23

great-grandfather's legacy until he was

36:25

already a teenager. When he

36:27

was just a boy, Vincent's

36:30

mother tragically died in a

36:32

car accident. and he found

36:34

himself in the foster care

36:36

system in Perth. It wasn't

36:39

until moving to the Northern

36:41

Territory after high school that

36:43

he discovered his great-grandfather's legacy.

36:45

Something like 70 years later,

36:48

his great-grandson has kind of

36:50

stepped into that same space,

36:52

working within that legacy and

36:54

that heritage. started in 2014,

36:57

so it's been 10 years

36:59

now. In 2014, Bruce was

37:01

working at the Queensland Art

37:03

Gallery, where they happened to

37:06

have a portrait of Albert,

37:08

painted by Australian artist William

37:10

Dargy. And I remember getting

37:12

a phone call, essentially asking

37:15

if they could come to

37:17

view the Sir William Dargy

37:19

portrait of Albert Namatjira. And

37:21

of course I said, yeah,

37:24

that would be fantastic. I'd

37:26

be totally happy to host.

37:28

And they came out to

37:30

view the portrait. And Vincent

37:32

was one of the shyest

37:35

people I probably ever met

37:37

in my life at that

37:39

point. And he brought with

37:41

him a small mirror and

37:44

a box of pencils. And

37:46

he sat down in front

37:48

of the painting. He grabbed

37:50

his mirror, he put it

37:53

against a sculpture so that

37:55

he could see himself reflected

37:57

in front of the portrait

37:59

of Albert, and he just...

38:02

sat and sketched himself with

38:04

that portrait. It was a

38:06

really amazing moment because it

38:08

was a way to kind

38:11

of re-establish that family connection.

38:13

And that was one of

38:15

the first major portraits that

38:17

Vincent painted. And now that

38:20

portrait is in the Queensland

38:22

Art Gallery collection alongside the

38:24

Sir William Darkey portrait of

38:26

Albert Namagira. One

38:29

of the things that it

38:32

does really say to me

38:34

in juxtaposing Jean's position and

38:37

Vincent's position is about intergenerational

38:39

wealth, intergenerational poverty, and the

38:41

ways in which she's been

38:44

able to inherit great wealth

38:46

and power, and Vincent has

38:49

been able to inherit an

38:51

artistic heritage and legacy, and

38:54

he's wielded in a way

38:56

that has for a moment

38:59

at least disempowered the wealth

39:01

and privilege of genus heritage.

39:04

So for me that's one

39:06

of the most powerful things

39:09

that I see in these

39:11

works. There's so much about

39:14

history, the colonial history and

39:16

legacy. For me it's really

39:19

about understanding the legacies of

39:21

both of those people and

39:23

the fact that, you know,

39:26

on this occasion, art wins

39:28

over money, which is amazing.

39:31

and Vincent being an aboriginal

39:33

man from an absolutely impoverished

39:36

community. The amazing thing is

39:38

that, you know, through art,

39:41

he was able to have

39:43

that voice and dismantle that

39:46

power. The powerful person didn't

39:48

get their way. The painting

39:51

stayed on the walls and

39:53

we're able to have that

39:56

conversation that he's been painting

39:58

about, that he's been talking

40:01

about for a decade now.

40:03

Just picking up on what

40:05

you're saying there. Gina's wealth

40:08

and privilege and that intergenerational

40:10

wealth and privilege has come

40:13

from the lands of Aboriginal

40:15

people. It's mining the very

40:18

earth of the country. Absolutely.

40:20

The most powerful people, the

40:23

most wealthy people in this

40:25

country really are connected to

40:28

that extractive history of mining

40:30

in this country and the

40:33

ways in which that has

40:35

both... absolutely removed Aboriginal people

40:38

from those areas, often broken

40:40

the connection that Aboriginal people

40:43

need to prove to have

40:45

any sort of native title

40:47

to the lands. And yet

40:50

that power we see in

40:52

Vincent's work and in this

40:55

situation we can see that

40:57

that power isn't absolute. It

41:00

can be flipped on its

41:02

head even if for a

41:05

minute. It gives some sense

41:07

of hope to a lot

41:10

of people I think. But

41:12

is it all a bit

41:15

too late to deliver a

41:17

message that cuts through? We'll

41:20

be here twice this week,

41:22

Thursday and Sunday, and we

41:25

want to hear from you.

41:27

What's going to make your

41:29

mind up and what are

41:32

the big issues that you're

41:34

observing? Let us know. Email

41:37

us at back-to-back barries at

41:39

the guardian.com. Vincent Namagira's portrait

41:42

can be seen as an

41:44

invitation to examine Australia's colonial

41:47

past. And Gina's dad's racist

41:49

comments are emblematic of that

41:52

history. The known

41:54

in the Hancock family

41:56

has ever really acknowledged

41:58

them. as to this

42:00

day never disavowed Lang

42:02

Hancock's racist comments. A

42:04

Hancock prospecting spokesperson provided

42:06

the following comment. Hancock

42:08

prospecting and Roy Hill

42:10

fund initiatives that improve

42:12

the health and well-being

42:14

of indigenous Australians, support

42:16

essential services in remote

42:18

and rural areas, and

42:20

foster participation in employment,

42:22

sport, education and indigenous

42:24

arts. Our commitment cannot

42:26

be regarded as compliance,

42:29

as we go far

42:31

beyond compliance. We invest

42:33

in meaningful, long-term partnerships

42:35

that create real opportunities.

42:37

Throughout this series you've

42:39

heard portions of my

42:41

conversation with Gina's son,

42:43

John Langley Hancock. I

42:45

wanted to know what

42:47

he thought. Obviously

42:56

Lang made some very

42:58

racist comments about sterilising

43:00

the water about original

43:03

people. Is that something

43:05

you're happy to disavow?

43:07

Did he literally think

43:10

that we should put

43:12

steriliser in the water?

43:15

I don't believe so.

43:17

And you agree that?

43:19

Had they been meant

43:22

literally that they are

43:24

inexcusable? Of course, of

43:27

course, but I don't

43:29

believe they were meant

43:31

literally. You agree that

43:34

regardless if those comments

43:36

were meant literally or

43:39

figuratively, they are still

43:41

inexcusable? Yes, inexcusable. And

43:43

why don't you think

43:46

Gina? came out and

43:48

publicly disavowed those comments

43:51

as many asked her

43:53

to do at the

43:55

time. I

44:02

haven't worked out

44:04

why. There is

44:07

also the PR

44:09

strategy of just

44:11

saying nothing. I

44:13

don't believe that

44:15

was appropriate in

44:18

this case. In

44:27

episode three, you also heard from

44:30

one of Lange's close friends, John

44:32

Singleton. A great friendship. It occurred

44:34

to me that this was something

44:37

that was probably discussed between them.

44:39

And so I asked him about

44:41

it. And when I did, he

44:44

ended up telling me something really

44:46

surprising. I've saved the most difficult

44:48

question for the last one, John.

44:50

Which is I wanted to ask

44:53

you about Lang Hancock's comments about

44:55

sterilizing the water of Aboriginal people.

44:57

Yeah. Did you ever talk to

45:00

him about that? I certainly did.

45:02

Because Lang was in, he's flat

45:04

at Circular Key when he did

45:06

that. He did that as the

45:09

sixth throwaway line. What was your

45:11

reaction to Lang's comments? So I

45:13

was found horrific. And Lang couldn't

45:16

understand why he was getting, he

45:18

was staying at the Circular Key.

45:20

I was at a Voca Beach.

45:23

a little beach out, a nice

45:25

land. I can't get down here

45:27

because I got kids, I got

45:29

seven kids look after. But why

45:32

don't you come up here? Which

45:34

he did. He drove up, a

45:36

terrible driver, probably a rollman. He

45:39

came to see with me, you

45:41

know, a little fiberow place on

45:43

a Voca Beach. And he just

45:46

was a emotional wreck. Why me?

45:48

Why me? I said, mate. You

45:50

know what you've said? No, but

45:52

I didn't mean that in context.

45:55

Land. Are you kidding. Are you

45:57

kidding, you kidding, you kidding, you

45:59

kidding, So we went for long

46:02

walks along the beach. I spent

46:04

hours talking to them, hours and

46:06

hours and hours. Some of the

46:09

things he said that didn't meant

46:11

to hurt, but how they did

46:13

hurt. And Lang, well, probably one

46:15

of the few good things I

46:18

did for Lang, is that I

46:20

had him be far more tolerant

46:22

in the cold light of day.

46:25

You read that in the headline

46:27

or on TV and you, it's

46:29

horrible, horrible. But obviously in that

46:32

long walk along the beach, you

46:34

weren't able to change his mind?

46:36

Yes, I did. I didn't change...

46:38

You did change his mind? I

46:41

didn't change his mind, I changed

46:43

his way of expressing. So I

46:45

think Lange was foolish in that

46:48

way. He didn't mean any harm,

46:50

but it came across terribly, and

46:52

I told him so. And he

46:54

did his best to correct it.

46:57

He failed by the like, he

46:59

failed. He failed to be forgiven.

47:01

He was an issue. more recently

47:04

when Dinnell, while I'm a W.A.

47:06

netballer, expressed concern about Lange's comments

47:08

when Hancock Prospecting was a sponsor

47:11

of the netball team. And Gina

47:13

took her sponsorship money and walked

47:15

away. A lot of people commented

47:17

at the time that that was

47:20

a missed opportunity for Gina to

47:22

disavow Lange's comments and to try

47:24

and write that wrong. You're right.

47:27

But also he had to choose

47:29

between disavowing her own father. John

47:31

Singleton says that, from what he

47:34

can see, the reason Gina has

47:36

never disavowed Lange's comments goes back

47:38

to the falling out between father

47:40

and daughter that happened during the

47:43

90s over Lange's relationship with Rose

47:45

Porteous. Gina, genuinely, totally blames herself.

47:47

I mean, deep down, how do

47:50

you forgive yourself? not communicating with

47:52

your dad who was your whole

47:54

life and vice versa for the

47:57

last few years of his life.

48:00

I know that she's made the

48:02

decision to honour a dad's memory

48:04

and therefore you won't. I don't

48:06

think you can get Gina to

48:08

say, at whatever commercial going to

48:10

Gina, she won't say that Lang

48:12

was silly or Lang did sort

48:14

of know better. You won't hear

48:17

those words. Couldn't she try and

48:19

make her mens? You were saying

48:21

could she have rather than the

48:23

wrong by explaining what I'm explaining,

48:25

probably. Probably. But Jenner also is

48:27

very shy, by nature, very, very

48:29

shy. She's very in awe of

48:32

her dad, loves him very much,

48:34

and she couldn't. I don't think

48:36

it's in her makeup at all

48:38

to see any fault in her

48:40

father. She went through that period.

48:42

They reconciled through death. Jenner to

48:44

go further in blaming her dad

48:47

for... I don't think she had

48:49

dinner. Her dad was back to

48:51

being a hero. She'd lost those

48:53

vital years. Vital to vital years.

48:55

It would be difficult for her

48:57

to disavow those comments now. She

48:59

would disavow them that. It's never

49:02

too late. It's too late with

49:04

the existing community. But if it's

49:06

on the record now, it can

49:08

help things the next generation or

49:10

the next. Because this problem is

49:12

not going away anyway. There's

49:20

also a much larger conversation

49:22

that needs to be had

49:24

here about Lang Hancock extending

49:26

far beyond just these comments

49:29

that he made in the

49:31

80s, because it's not just

49:33

his words that need to

49:35

be considered. Long before he

49:38

was a mining magnate, Lane

49:40

lived a whole life out

49:42

there in the Pilbra. He

49:44

and his family before him

49:47

had managed enormous pastoral stations.

49:49

Among them was Molger Downs,

49:51

the place of Gina's childhood

49:53

that you heard about back

49:56

in episode one. Lange lived

49:58

there as a young man

50:00

in the 1920s and he

50:02

was there as a station

50:05

manager in the 1930s and

50:07

40s. At a time where

50:09

working conditions were discriminatory and

50:11

widespread systemic racist policies. were

50:14

prevalent. The era of Lang

50:16

Hancock is also the era

50:18

of the stolen generation, the

50:20

removal of indigenous children, and

50:23

of stolen wages. So he's

50:25

living on Margaret Downs managing

50:27

the station. I think sheep

50:29

at that time, they had

50:32

cattle and they had sheep

50:34

at different times. This is

50:36

Stuart Reed. You might recognize

50:38

him from previous episodes. He

50:41

interviewed Lang for the National

50:43

Library of Australia. You know,

50:45

you've got a round-up, she

50:47

can bring them in for

50:50

shearing all that sort of

50:52

stuff. So he's on horseback

50:54

through all this time. And

50:56

there are Aboriginal people working

50:59

on the station and Aboriginal

51:01

people living on the station

51:03

as well. And he had

51:05

very disparaging. views about them.

51:08

Because one of the questions

51:10

I asked was if he

51:12

had learned anything from the

51:14

Aboriginal people. He said, well,

51:17

you learn what to eat

51:19

and what not to eat,

51:21

but other than that, they've

51:23

got nothing to teach anybody.

51:26

They know nothing. They've done

51:28

nothing. They have never built

51:30

anything mechanical. So that was

51:32

kind of his view. And

51:35

they've... I asked him about

51:37

ceremony because ceremony and he

51:39

said ceremony was still very

51:42

much active on the country

51:44

in those days and the

51:46

ceremonies I asked him about

51:48

ceremonies themselves he said well

51:51

apart from them but you

51:53

know some of them women

51:55

can attend some of them

51:57

women can't attend he said

52:00

but they're all just repetitive

52:02

chanting they've only got about

52:04

three words you know and

52:06

they just keep going over

52:09

and over those things and

52:11

yeah his He did tell

52:13

the story of, because I

52:15

asked him also about, This

52:18

came up in the context

52:20

of citizens' rights, which he

52:22

thinks was a disaster. So

52:24

the granting of citizens' rights

52:27

to Aboriginal people, in his

52:29

view, gave them three rights.

52:31

The right to pay taxes,

52:33

the right to fornicate with

52:36

white people, and the right

52:38

to drink alcohol. And all

52:40

three had been disastrous for

52:42

Aboriginal people. His view as

52:45

he put it. And this

52:47

is a view he said

52:49

publicly many times. I'm not

52:51

revealing any secrets from this

52:54

transcript when I talk about

52:56

that. That's been a view

52:58

that he's expressed widely. Did

53:00

you ask him about those

53:03

comments? Yes. And what do

53:05

you say about them? Yeah,

53:07

well he repeated them. He

53:09

didn't resolve from any of

53:12

it. It has to do,

53:14

I think, with a mindset

53:16

about superiority, and his feeling

53:18

that he himself was a

53:21

superior human being. So it

53:23

wasn't just a racial thing,

53:25

but he did see things

53:27

in terms of a hierarchy

53:30

of superiority. How did you

53:32

feel with Langton? What was

53:34

it? Nothing. Later, at the

53:36

end of the 90s, I

53:39

was working as coordinator of

53:41

the unit and a woman

53:43

came into the library and

53:45

she wanted to see me

53:48

as the interviewer and she

53:50

said, I have just read

53:52

this interview with Lang Hancock

53:54

and you... sat there and

53:57

let him say all these

53:59

outrageous things these terrible things

54:01

and what an awful man

54:03

is and you she got

54:06

really quite hot under the

54:08

collar about me not challenging

54:10

him on these things and

54:12

I thought okay I've done

54:15

my job here the true

54:17

Lange has come out and

54:19

it's made someone who dislikes

54:21

that kind of person really

54:24

really angry The

54:32

other very significant thing you need

54:34

to know about Lang Hancock is

54:36

that over the years allegations have

54:39

been made that during his time

54:41

at Molga Downs Lang fathered multiple

54:43

children with aboriginal women who lived

54:45

or worked at the station before

54:47

the birth of Gina Rhinehart. The

54:49

first was in 1992 when a

54:51

woman called Hilda Kickett comes forward

54:53

in a TV interview. She is

54:56

born in 1943 11 years before

54:58

Gina. Her mother was a cook

55:00

at the homestead on the station.

55:02

Then, a few months later, another

55:04

indigenous woman also comes forward. A

55:06

woman called Stella Robinson tells the

55:08

Perth Sunday Times she was born

55:10

in 1932, when Lange was only

55:13

23, which would make her the

55:15

first-born Hancock child. She too was

55:17

conceived at Molotowns. Stella goes on

55:19

to say that Lange's father also

55:21

had a child with an aboriginal

55:23

woman at Molotowns, and that Lange

55:25

has a half-sister called Monet Doris.

55:28

All three women are no

55:30

longer alive. Did you ever

55:32

speak to Lange about the

55:34

reports that he had fathered

55:37

Aboriginal children? Yes. What did

55:39

he say about it? Not

55:41

that I know of. He

55:43

didn't deny that he had

55:45

relationships with Aboriginal girls, but

55:47

he didn't know. I trust

55:50

Elaine implicitly. Yes. Good on

55:52

him. Yes, he did with

55:54

me. And there's an incredible

55:56

power imbalance here though as

55:58

well, Rhine? Oh, terrible. Terrible.

56:00

But you realize that when

56:03

Hancock came, it was just

56:05

an unknown white man. He

56:07

wasn't a multi-billionaire. He was

56:09

just another black leaving off

56:11

the bush. After Lange's death,

56:13

a Hancock family lawyer said

56:16

the following. Everybody who knew

56:18

Lang and his father was

56:20

quite adamant it was not

56:22

Lang's style. That wasn't the

56:24

kind of thing Lang Hancock

56:26

would do. I've spoken to

56:29

young men who worked around

56:31

Mogodowns with Lang and I've

56:33

spoken to confidence who say

56:35

nothing like this was ever

56:37

mentioned or rumored. Gina Reinhart

56:39

has never acknowledged any of

56:42

these women as relatives. We

56:44

asked her about this but

56:46

received no response to that

56:48

question. No DNA test has

56:50

ever been performed. During

56:53

my conversation with Gina's son,

56:56

John Hancock, I also asked

56:58

him about the claims. However,

57:00

he was not willing to

57:02

go on the record. He

57:05

has said in the past

57:07

that, quote, my mother and

57:09

others who I've spoken with

57:11

who knew Lang well were

57:14

of the view that Hilda

57:16

is not Lang's daughter. It's

57:18

been reported that in 1997,

57:20

John approached Hilda at the

57:23

direction of his mother, asking

57:25

her to sign a declaration

57:27

that stated George Hancock and

57:29

not Lang was her father.

57:32

Hilda refused. She has been

57:34

quoted as saying that she

57:36

would not make a claim

57:38

for a part of the

57:41

Hancock estate during her life,

57:43

saying her life was quote,

57:45

far more rewarding than material

57:47

stuff, and that why should

57:50

I? I'm glad I tracked

57:52

you down. I think I

57:54

contacted quite a few kickets

57:56

on Facebook. Hilda Kickett went

57:59

on to have several children.

58:01

Her son, Calvin Kickett, still

58:03

lives in West... Australia. Yeah

58:05

but um kickers that's me

58:08

dad so I see mom's

58:10

mom was married into the

58:12

kickers so he has grown

58:14

up with the understanding that

58:17

he is Lange's unrecognised grandson

58:19

and that Gina Reinhart is

58:21

his aunt. Tell me about

58:23

your mom. My nana was

58:26

working there that's how it

58:28

all come together. The animal's

58:30

a housemate and that's when

58:32

Lange used to go up

58:35

there. This is when I

58:37

can piece together. and he

58:39

used to go up there

58:41

looking for a new one

58:44

at the station. My mother

58:46

was a housemate there and

58:48

that's how mum grew up

58:50

about. Hilda was born in

58:53

Port Headland about a four-hour

58:55

drive north from Bogodowns. Afterward

58:57

she was taken to an

58:59

orphanage in Perth. She was

59:02

her father and apparently she

59:04

was well taken care of.

59:06

So he paid for her

59:08

schooling? Yeah. Yeah. What did

59:11

she tell you about him?

59:13

Well she knew that. What

59:15

did she tell you about

59:17

him? There was a visit

59:20

at the boarding school. She,

59:22

you know, there'd be new

59:24

shoes, there'd be new, this

59:26

and that, what he used

59:29

to send there. And she,

59:31

I don't wonder where it

59:33

come from, but she knew

59:35

someone. Yes. Hilda Kickett spoke

59:38

to News Corp in 2012.

59:40

She talked about her fondest

59:42

memories with Lange, when she

59:44

spent a week at his

59:47

home on the Swan River

59:49

in Perth. playing with her

59:51

alleged sister, Gina, who was

59:53

at that time only two

59:56

years old. Hilda was 12.

59:58

She says, quote, we used

1:00:00

to play on the river.

1:00:02

He used to flick water.

1:00:05

Gina was in this big

1:00:07

blessed pram. I used to

1:00:09

get her out and put

1:00:11

her in the water, just

1:00:14

put her to soak. She

1:00:16

tried her best to connect

1:00:18

with him. And that's how

1:00:20

come she got so sick

1:00:23

and tired because they didn't

1:00:25

want to recognize her. She

1:00:27

tried her best. She just

1:00:29

wanted to be recognised by

1:00:32

Gina. It wasn't about the

1:00:34

money, it was just recognition

1:00:36

and like grown up without

1:00:38

a father you don't know

1:00:41

or you want to find

1:00:43

out, don't you? Yeah, of

1:00:45

course. And it obviously saddened

1:00:47

her quite a lot. Yes,

1:00:50

she, yeah, most of her

1:00:52

life, she was because she

1:00:54

couldn't find her worth of

1:00:56

who she was. Hilda

1:01:00

attempted to visit Lange on

1:01:02

his deathbed, accompanied by the

1:01:04

Catholic Archbishop of Perth. She

1:01:06

says she was denied the

1:01:09

chance to see him. That's

1:01:11

my mother wanted recognition and

1:01:13

to know who her father

1:01:16

was. And she wanted Gina

1:01:18

to acknowledge it too though,

1:01:20

right? Yeah. Wouldn't you for

1:01:22

a sister? Wouldn't you want

1:01:25

to... You know, you had

1:01:27

a sister you want to

1:01:29

know? It wasn't my mom's

1:01:31

fault as you come about.

1:01:34

And Lange had a lot

1:01:36

of influence on, on, at

1:01:38

bring in all people, not

1:01:41

ladies, men, because he was

1:01:43

the boss. You know, on

1:01:45

the station and whatever he

1:01:47

said had to go. It

1:01:50

was up there months and

1:01:52

months and you know a

1:01:54

whole bunch mans and that's

1:01:56

how mom come about so

1:01:59

yeah. Sorry I don't know

1:02:01

what old budgymand is sorry.

1:02:03

Bungy man is a old

1:02:06

white man's got running around

1:02:08

with everything ladies. Oh right

1:02:10

okay which there was a

1:02:12

lot of that happening in

1:02:15

Mogher Down's by the looks

1:02:17

like. Oh yeah yeah. I

1:02:19

live with this secret myself

1:02:22

because it was handed down

1:02:24

to me, passed on to

1:02:26

me. Why one of these

1:02:28

sexual daughters? An annuta. That

1:02:31

memory still blows me away

1:02:33

this day. I also talked

1:02:35

to Devin Kumar. I'm a

1:02:37

Numai warrior from the U.S.

1:02:40

Wajak. I'm a U.Bary Maya

1:02:42

nations. He runs the Aboriginal

1:02:44

males healing centre near Newman.

1:02:47

He's also healed a kick

1:02:49

its nephew. So tell me

1:02:51

how you found out? We

1:02:54

were staying at Andy Hilda,

1:02:57

there was such a beautiful

1:02:59

woman in her husband, who

1:03:01

had rest their souls. And

1:03:03

they were, they go to

1:03:05

every old family that looked

1:03:07

after you. Andy Hilda, there's

1:03:09

too much pain for him.

1:03:11

But she did share it

1:03:13

with you, you know. And

1:03:15

she was caught out when

1:03:17

you asked. Well, Andy. Is

1:03:19

that true? The Lang Inca

1:03:21

was, uh, into a kid.

1:03:24

Yeah. I just, when she

1:03:26

said it. It was like,

1:03:28

uh... an epitome, I don't

1:03:30

know if Kelvin tried your

1:03:32

side of it, but I'm

1:03:34

a Welsh, just a kitten

1:03:36

image of Lange Hancock. Rose

1:03:38

Porteous, Lange's widow, also recognised

1:03:40

Hilda Kickett after Lange's death,

1:03:42

telling the West Australian that

1:03:44

he had told her he

1:03:46

was the father. She also

1:03:48

spoke about the similarity between

1:03:51

Hilda and Lange, saying, quote,

1:03:53

if you put glasses on

1:03:55

her, which I did when

1:03:57

she came to my home.

1:03:59

and I couldn't believe it.

1:04:01

I said, sorry, but you

1:04:03

are not very pretty because

1:04:05

my husband was not a

1:04:07

pretty man. The blood that

1:04:09

runs... in her is the

1:04:11

same blood that is in

1:04:13

Gina. But all that family

1:04:15

deserves to have a share

1:04:18

of that wealth, that's their

1:04:20

lawful right, because he's their

1:04:22

father, he's their grandfather, he's

1:04:24

their uncle, whatever the case

1:04:26

of it. Even those kids

1:04:28

are there, of genus, they

1:04:30

need to be able to

1:04:32

be told as well on

1:04:34

the informed that this is

1:04:36

your family. During our conversation,

1:04:38

Devon imagines a world in

1:04:40

which Gina Reinhart embraces her

1:04:42

alleged relatives. The many extended

1:04:45

family members. That would be

1:04:47

lovely to watch and a

1:04:49

news camera filming it. The

1:04:51

sisters meeting their aunties and

1:04:53

they're all black. That'd be

1:04:55

just too lovely. You'd be

1:04:57

extraordinary for reconciliation. You know,

1:04:59

just legitimate nieces and nephews.

1:05:01

It's important to look at

1:05:03

these claims, which I should

1:05:05

stress are untested, in isolation.

1:05:07

It's also important to look

1:05:09

at their historical context, what

1:05:11

was happening at places like

1:05:14

Mogodowns in the 1930s and

1:05:16

40s. It's really almost untold.

1:05:18

It's glaringly absent from stories

1:05:20

about the foundation of the

1:05:22

Hancock family and its wealth.

1:05:24

This was a family that

1:05:26

was undeniably a colonial force

1:05:28

in Western Australia, one of

1:05:30

the most notable settler families

1:05:32

in the state's northwest. But

1:05:34

the story of Mogodowns, as

1:05:36

told by the Hancocks and

1:05:38

Gina, rarely if ever, mentions

1:05:41

the predominantly indigenous workforce that

1:05:43

helped keep the station running

1:05:45

through much of the 19th

1:05:47

and 20th centuries. But

1:05:51

it's also I guess why this truth-telling is

1:05:53

so important, right? Correct, that's right. At the

1:05:55

end of the day, what we give thanks

1:05:57

for at the end of the day. We

1:06:00

just want some truth to

1:06:02

be put out there with

1:06:04

that particular person, that woman.

1:06:07

As part of this

1:06:09

series Guardian Australia

1:06:11

has uncovered unreported

1:06:13

documents obtained through state archives

1:06:15

of W.A. that shared new

1:06:18

light on the relationship between

1:06:20

Lang Hancock and one of

1:06:22

the children he was alleged

1:06:25

to have fathered. These

1:06:27

documents are concerned with events from

1:06:29

the year 1940, when the government,

1:06:32

acting in accordance with its policies

1:06:34

that created the stolen generation, removed

1:06:36

Celler and Manette Doris from molder

1:06:38

downs. Celler was six and Manette

1:06:40

was eight. Government correspondent shows that

1:06:42

Celler was discovered by government inspectors

1:06:45

after pulling over a truck to

1:06:47

question some station workers. We've had

1:06:49

a voice actor read out a

1:06:51

letter written by one of those

1:06:54

inspectors. These men

1:06:56

appeared to be somewhat agitated.

1:06:58

I noticed that a tarpaulin,

1:07:00

which was covered over a

1:07:02

portion of the tabletop, was

1:07:05

moving. I removed the tarpaulin,

1:07:07

thus on covering two native

1:07:09

adult females and the half-caste

1:07:11

child, Cella. The girl was

1:07:13

placed in the police car. At

1:07:15

the time of her removal, her

1:07:17

mother was reportedly at

1:07:20

Roburn Hospital. When about 100

1:07:22

yards from the camp, Minnet took

1:07:24

to the bush. with me in

1:07:26

hot pursuit. And after about half

1:07:28

a mile run I eventually caught

1:07:31

her and placed her in our

1:07:33

car along with cellar. In a letter

1:07:35

that has never before been

1:07:38

reported, Lang Hancock writes

1:07:40

to the state minister for the

1:07:42

North West. He seeks

1:07:44

ministerial intervention after the

1:07:47

children. He seeks

1:07:49

ministerial intervention after the

1:07:51

children. He refers to the

1:07:53

children. as having been kidnapped

1:07:56

and once them returned. He

1:07:58

even suggests swapping them. for

1:08:00

some other Aboriginal children. Can I

1:08:02

read you this letter from Hancock

1:08:04

and see what you think? So

1:08:07

he says, in the absence of

1:08:09

the manager of this station, the

1:08:11

local police officer and inspector ran

1:08:13

down and captured two half-caste children

1:08:16

who were decently clothed and fed

1:08:18

and cruelly took them from their

1:08:20

mothers to be a burden on

1:08:22

the state, despite the fact that

1:08:25

they and their parents were fed

1:08:27

clothed and insured by us. No

1:08:29

letter of explanation was left or

1:08:31

forwarded. 24 miles from us, there

1:08:34

are nine starving, ill-clothed, half-caste and

1:08:36

quadrine children of whom both the

1:08:38

inspector and the police have been

1:08:40

notified, but nothing has been done

1:08:43

about them. We would suggest that

1:08:45

the two children be returned to

1:08:47

us and two of the starving

1:08:49

mites substituted, as there is no

1:08:52

justification for wasting money and inflicting

1:08:54

cruelty upon them, especially when every

1:08:56

penny should be spent in keeping

1:08:58

Hitler from the door. Yeah, that's

1:09:01

so typical. That's so typical. of

1:09:03

that generation. Yes, it does not

1:09:05

surprise me at all. And there

1:09:07

are many people out there that

1:09:10

have got those types of letters.

1:09:12

So people in the pill bral

1:09:14

know all these stories, right? Listen

1:09:16

to you. Hmm. Listen to me.

1:09:19

The trove of documents also exposes

1:09:21

the racist and protectionist era government

1:09:23

concerns about sexual relationships between white

1:09:25

men and aboriginal women. Part of

1:09:28

that protectionist-era law forbade sexual relations

1:09:30

between white and Aboriginal people unless

1:09:32

they were married. The documents show

1:09:34

that government workers repeatedly discuss conditions

1:09:37

at Melgadown's underlying Hancock's management and

1:09:39

his suitability to hold a permit

1:09:41

to employ indigenous workers is questioned.

1:09:43

They say that the camp, quote,

1:09:46

must have been used by white

1:09:48

men for the satisfaction of their

1:09:50

sexual desires. Lang Hancock is not

1:09:52

named in these documents as been

1:09:55

under investigation for sexual relations with

1:09:57

Aboriginal women. In

1:10:00

fact, I'll read you the

1:10:03

direct quote. It says, this

1:10:05

is in response to Hancock's

1:10:07

letter. I'm forced to the

1:10:10

opinion that if Hancock considers

1:10:12

that the fact of working

1:10:14

two half-caste native females, age

1:10:17

12 and 9, respectively at

1:10:19

the homestead during the day

1:10:21

and sending them into the

1:10:24

native camp to sleep, is

1:10:26

fair and proper treatment for

1:10:28

these children, while his sense

1:10:31

of fairness is somewhat warped.

1:10:33

Oh my goodness. Wow. How

1:10:35

powerful would it be for

1:10:38

Jayna Reinhart to come out

1:10:40

now and acknowledge the history?

1:10:42

I appreciate that it wasn't

1:10:45

her and it wasn't, you

1:10:47

know, she didn't. It's her

1:10:49

legacy just like her morning

1:10:52

here is to the mining

1:10:54

rights and tenement that he

1:10:56

had. Her father had. It's

1:10:59

part of her history. Yes.

1:11:02

That's a part of her

1:11:04

life. Susan is. That's what

1:11:06

makes it of her status.

1:11:09

I mean, the whole thing

1:11:11

of, you know, I just

1:11:13

can't get out of like

1:11:16

40 billion. It's just so

1:11:18

sad. One individual could be

1:11:20

worth that much and yet

1:11:23

we're dying like doffin' a

1:11:25

lot of flies in the

1:11:27

children. Literally, a little people

1:11:29

are doppin' lives. And not

1:11:32

only that. I mean, there's

1:11:34

families out there that... have

1:11:36

an entitlement and burst to

1:11:39

that money. There'd be some

1:11:41

people who would say, look,

1:11:43

oh look most of this

1:11:46

happened before Gina Reinhart was

1:11:48

born, why would it matter

1:11:50

if she acknowledged this history

1:11:53

now, what difference would it

1:11:55

make, past is the past?

1:11:57

I don't put it to

1:12:00

you this way. Why do

1:12:02

they remember Anzaks? Yes we

1:12:04

forget. Well that's the same

1:12:06

thing for our people, lest

1:12:09

we forget. Let's, we forget.

1:12:11

All those things that you

1:12:13

just see when you're reading

1:12:16

that letter was a system

1:12:18

that dehumanized us. And that

1:12:20

dehumanization is continuing to this

1:12:23

stuff. And so if she

1:12:25

was able to publicly acknowledge

1:12:27

this history, what difference could

1:12:30

it make? A huge difference.

1:12:32

A massive difference because we've

1:12:34

got a recognition from a

1:12:37

well-respected illness. So somebody like

1:12:39

that, coming out and recognising

1:12:41

the past and being put

1:12:44

on the back foot and

1:12:46

responding to, well it's just

1:12:48

going to show this country

1:12:50

what needs to be the

1:12:53

truth or the entries. And

1:12:55

they've always made an outrus,

1:12:57

made the amount to be

1:13:00

untrids. Or they put it

1:13:02

in that context that you

1:13:04

have. That's the past. Move

1:13:07

on. That's the whole thing,

1:13:09

we cannot move on. Indigenous

1:13:11

Australians can call one three

1:13:14

yarn on one three yarn

1:13:16

on one three nine two

1:13:18

seven six for information and

1:13:21

crisis support. Gina is reported

1:13:23

by me Sarah Martin. The

1:13:25

series producer is Joe Coning

1:13:27

and the executive producer is

1:13:30

Shelley Hepworth. The head of

1:13:32

audio is Miles Martagnoni. This

1:13:34

episode was also produced by

1:13:37

Faza Draki and Jess Hamilton.

1:13:39

Additional production was by Karish

1:13:41

Malithria, Isabella Lee and Camilla

1:13:44

Hannon. Sound design in this

1:13:46

episode was by Joe Coning.