0:00

So two months after receiving glowing

0:02

reviews on my performance check-in and

0:04

after three years of good performance

0:07

reviews, suddenly I was failing

0:09

everything and they walked me out of

0:11

the quarterly office. It happens and it's

0:13

real. I'm here to tell you it's

0:15

real. There is a playbook that FBI

0:17

management can use that if they want

0:19

to get to. They will. Initially, they

0:21

sent me to West Virginia. and hit

0:24

me with a loss of effectiveness transfer, accusing

0:26

me of everything under the sun from not

0:28

being able to work with women, to being

0:30

a liar, to being toxic, to ruining the

0:32

relationships with all of my partners in North

0:34

Idaho to the point that no one would

0:36

work with the FBI anymore because of me,

0:38

and the only resolution was to send me

0:40

somewhere else. Hey

0:53

everybody, welcome back to Game Crimes with Murf

0:56

in the morning. What is wrong with you

0:58

people that you keep coming back here? You

1:00

know, I'm a redneck hill, Billy, but I

1:02

guess you'd like the guest I'm bringing on.

1:04

That's what it is. I know that's what

1:06

it is. But welcome back. It means the

1:08

world to me that you do come back.

1:10

I hope you're enjoying what you see. I

1:12

hope you joined us yesterday to hear part

1:14

one of the interview with Zach. show stall.

1:16

We're going to get into the meat and

1:18

potatoes is why I really brought him on

1:20

the show. You can tell if you saw

1:22

yesterday's episode, he's a little bashful. I've been

1:24

having a full teeth to get him

1:26

to talk, which is the best guest

1:28

to have because if I got to

1:30

sit there and ask him questions, you're

1:32

not here to listen to me. You're

1:34

not here to listen to me. You're

1:37

going to go do that on Patriot.

1:39

You're here to meet our guests. that

1:41

things go on within our government where

1:43

politics play such a pivotal role. You

1:46

folks have been with me for a night

1:48

while. I try to stay apolitical here on

1:50

the regular podcast, but this is one where

1:52

we might have to get a little political

1:55

just because of what happened is wrong. So

1:57

as we left it yesterday, Zach had just

1:59

left. The training academy, the

2:01

FBI training academy in

2:03

Quantico, Virginia, has been

2:05

selected for a supervisory

2:07

position in Cortland, Idaho. Which, he's

2:10

from Montana, I guess that's

2:12

drivable. Actually, I haven't been to

2:14

either one of the states

2:16

yet, but at least you're close

2:19

to home, right? We're going to have

2:21

to fix that, Merck. I'd love to

2:23

visit Montana. Well, these days, well, sharks,

2:25

obviously. I mean, that would be

2:28

cool. That would be cool. And what Zach's

2:30

talking about is his business now, he took

2:32

over a business that his dad started where

2:34

they actually make Sharps rifles. If you don't

2:36

want those Sharps is, go look it up.

2:38

It's part of our history in the founding

2:40

of the United States. You need to know

2:42

what that is. So there's some homework there.

2:44

I'm giving you a homework assignment. Go find

2:46

out what a Sharps is and you'll find

2:48

out more about Zachare. So Zach, you pull

2:50

into a quarter lane Idaho, you got your

2:52

permanent bride with you now, not your practice,

2:54

not your practice wife. Have your kids been

2:56

born yet? My daughter's been born,

2:58

my son is ultimately born here

3:01

in Cortland. She's born in the

3:03

hospital here in Courtney County. All

3:05

right, I don't even know where

3:07

Cortland is, other that's in the

3:09

state of Idaho. Is that in

3:12

the middle, north, south, east, west,

3:14

where is that? No, it's way

3:16

up in the Panhandle. Idaho's got

3:18

a big panhandle of Florida, except

3:20

it's vertical, not horizontal. Two hours

3:23

from the Canadian border, so I'm

3:25

up there. We're pretty far north.

3:27

It is very close to Spokane, Washington.

3:29

Actually, referred to as Spokane, which was

3:31

the meth capital of the country for

3:34

a long time. Straight out of Spokane.

3:36

Straight out of Spokane. So the panhandle

3:38

is not super wide. So yes, I'm

3:40

within an hour of driving to Montana,

3:43

and I'm within 20 minutes of

3:45

being in Washington. So how many people

3:47

you got assigned to your office?

3:49

Gun totters. Sure. So I was responsible for

3:51

the northern half of Idaho, which is 10

3:53

counties up through the panhandle. We had two

3:55

offices. We had the quarter lane office and

3:57

an office in Lewiston. And depending on the

3:59

day I had seven to eight agents

4:01

to it or split between the two

4:04

offices and then kind of a handful

4:06

of support staff. I both intelligence professionals

4:08

I had a secretary which the

4:10

Bureau doesn't call them that anymore

4:12

which she's a great administrative specialist

4:15

victim specialist. in the office. So

4:17

it's a criminal heavy office out

4:19

here, as is a lot of our

4:21

resident agencies. You've got Indian reservations out

4:24

here, which for your listeners who

4:26

don't know, Indian reservations are federal territories.

4:28

They are still recognized. Those that are

4:30

under treaty with the federal government

4:32

are still recognized as a conceptual sovereign

4:35

nation. Now, it's not the same as

4:37

like Mexico versus the United States

4:39

or Canada versus the United States,

4:41

but they do have some interesting

4:43

right. given to them because of the

4:45

treaties that they signed in the 1800s.

4:47

So the three Indian reservations that were

4:49

in my AR was the Nez Perce

4:51

near Lewiston, Idaho, the Cordellane, near Cordellane,

4:53

Idaho, and then the Kootenai tribe, which

4:55

is pretty small, the vast majority of

4:57

the Kootenai tribe is up in Canada,

4:59

and they are up near Bonner's fairies,

5:01

a small reservation up there. Arguably, if

5:03

it weren't for the Indian reservations, there

5:05

would be less of an of an

5:07

argument to have FBI personnel out here.

5:09

But again, so they're federal territories. What

5:12

does that mean? That means in the

5:14

general sense that the state and county

5:16

law enforcement don't have jurisdiction over crimes

5:18

committed by an Indian within the boundaries

5:21

of the reservations. So it's either going

5:23

to fall to their own police department,

5:25

Bureau of Indian Affairs or the FBI.

5:27

And out here we don't have Bureau

5:30

of Indian Affairs drug agent, like BIA.

5:32

Bureau of Indian Affairs is kind of

5:34

split into two general crimes and drug

5:36

crimes. That was a big chunk of

5:39

what we did, but then we still

5:41

had agents that also did like

5:43

collar crimes, public corruption investigations. Terrorism

5:45

investigations at this point in time

5:47

was mostly domestic terrorism investigations. And

5:49

when I first got here we

5:51

had a violent crime task force

5:53

that was doing some pretty low-level

5:55

drug investigations. That's most of what

5:57

it is. Occasionally you have something

5:59

else. pop up, you'd have a fugitive

6:01

come through, you'd have maybe some kind

6:04

of Hobbs Act robbery or a bank

6:06

robbery. North Idaho is not an overly

6:08

populated area. It is next to Spokane,

6:11

so if Spokane is, I think, 600,000

6:13

people or 500,000 for that metro

6:15

area on the Idaho side, it's

6:17

a couple hundred thousand. So

6:19

again, it doesn't merit significant

6:21

FBI resources, but we're here.

6:23

and you're just trying to provide a service

6:25

to the community. The Indian tribe thing is

6:27

really interesting. I had a guest on here

6:30

who's become a good friend, Earl Cohen. He

6:32

was episode 168, and he grew up in

6:34

Orlando, as a matter of fact, where I

6:36

live, and went to the University of Central

6:38

Florida, but he is now the chief of

6:40

the Swinomish Indian Tribe, the tribal police out

6:42

there, and he's a white guy. He actually

6:45

had Javier and I come out and we

6:47

spoke, we did our little Escobar thing for

6:49

everybody out there, all the local police agencies.

6:51

Beautiful area and upstate Washington, but I found

6:53

it very interesting. One of my questions was

6:55

how do the Indian tribal people take to

6:57

a white guy, cunning man, enforcing the law,

6:59

and I'm telling what they can and can't

7:01

do. And I was surprised by his response.

7:04

It's a great episode, but I understand what

7:06

the challenges there on the Indian. reservations for

7:08

you guys. How much drugs and violence were

7:10

you seeing in your area of responsibility out

7:12

there? Mix. Unlike my time in Virginia where

7:14

Coke was king, meth out here, you know,

7:16

I'd get excited when one of my

7:18

agents would bring to me a story

7:20

or Intel that there would be Coke

7:22

coming through. Finally, a real drug that

7:25

we could talk about. deal with all

7:27

this meth and pills and this and

7:29

that. I'm like, give me some good

7:31

old-fashioned powder. Well, it really gave me

7:33

exciting. Somebody's gonna start about whipping it

7:36

up into crack. So now, predominantly the

7:38

drug of choice out here is meth.

7:40

There was some heroin that would come

7:42

through. Obviously now you've got fentanyl in

7:44

just about everything, unfortunately. You're very

7:46

familiar with that. So the mess would come

7:49

through, you know, you'd have the pill

7:51

presses and stuff would come through in

7:53

central Washington in the Christ cities in

7:55

particular, you've got a very significant Mexican

7:57

mafia present. So the supply chain from

7:59

Mexico. is real strong going into the tri-city

8:01

and they would branch out from there. What

8:03

are the tri-cities that you're talking

8:06

about? Yeah, so tri-cities is southwest,

8:08

south-central Washington, and it's Richland, Pasco,

8:10

Kenaway. That's where the Hanford Nuclear

8:12

Plant is. Richland, I'm sorry, is

8:14

an old government town. A core

8:16

of engineers built it to service

8:19

the Hanford Nuclear Plant during World

8:21

War II. Either fat man or little

8:23

boy came out of that nuclear reactor.

8:25

So it's a lot of agriculture. It's

8:27

right on the Columbia River and I

8:29

don't know the exact history other than

8:31

there's a significant migrant worker population in

8:33

history of that going out to service

8:35

all of the agriculture that's there. You

8:37

ended up with a very strong drug

8:39

supply line. My time here was mostly

8:41

again a little bit of heroin a

8:43

lot of meth and then when fentanyl

8:45

started getting laced into everything it was

8:47

everything coming up. Yeah. cities like

8:50

Cordellane, Lewiston are not, they're not

8:52

source cities, right? Neither was Richmond,

8:55

Richmond wasn't a source city either,

8:57

right? Like source cities or major

8:59

distribution hubs would be New York,

9:02

Chicago, Atlanta, Miami, Dallas, Texas. So

9:04

for the Northwest, Tri-Cities falls into

9:06

that. And then it would fan out from

9:09

there, come over to Spokane, or it would

9:11

come directly over to Lewiston. So

9:13

in and out of the Indian

9:15

reservations, the... The violent crime and

9:17

the peripheral drug crime was really

9:20

all the same. You had distribution

9:22

quantities, but lower levels. We weren't

9:24

talking about kilos, or, you know, 20,

9:26

30, 40, 50 pounds. If somebody did a

9:28

car stop that had 20 or 40 pounds,

9:30

that had 20 or 40 pounds of meth in

9:33

it, that was a big deal around here. And

9:35

a lot of times that was a

9:37

transitory stop. Idaho State Police had

9:39

interdiction teams that would run Interstate

9:42

90, which runs through the panhandle

9:44

runs through the pan. And again, it's just

9:46

transiting the area. Maybe it would stop

9:48

for a lower level distribution, but it's

9:51

a transit stop. So it's either going

9:53

north into Canada, which years ago, drugs

9:55

used to come down from Canada into

9:57

the US. Now a lot of it

9:59

is the pipeline. Mexico goes through the

10:01

United States and up into Canada through

10:03

ports of entry. And we have two

10:05

ports of entry here in North Iowa.

10:07

I guess last week was Brent Cartwright

10:09

who was a police officer in Kansas

10:11

City, Missouri. He worked undercover for years

10:13

and years and it was street level

10:16

stuff. And he ultimately was shot six

10:18

times by an AR-15 by a guy

10:20

who wanted for murder, calling him his

10:22

career. He's making the best of it

10:24

now. doing a great job, but one

10:26

of the things that we talked about

10:28

last week was the fact that, and

10:30

I'm asking you this to see if

10:32

you would concur, have you seen that

10:34

the smaller the drug violator, the more

10:36

violence he's prone to? I saw that

10:38

in Richmond. I definitively saw that in

10:41

Richmond with the lowest guys on the

10:43

totem pole in gangs and in drug

10:45

trafficking organizations were the guys that were

10:47

putting in the real work. And when

10:49

I say work like violent work. In

10:51

Idaho, the guys that were doing most

10:53

violence were users. Maybe they'd be a

10:55

low-level distributor for within their given, I

10:57

use the term loosely, friend group. Yeah,

10:59

I mean, the folks that are on

11:01

the higher end of that supply, at

11:03

least in the areas that I work,

11:05

violence was typically not great for business.

11:08

And if you were moving significant weight,

11:10

it was a business for you. In

11:12

the street gangs of Virginia and the

11:14

bloods and stuff like that, it'd be

11:16

a little bit different because a lot

11:18

of times you'd have some turf wars

11:20

and islands could be... You need to

11:22

assert themselves or outside of beat-ins to

11:24

get into the gang. There could be

11:26

assault and robberies and rapes and stuff

11:28

to get into the gang. Out here,

11:30

you don't have, at least in Idaho,

11:33

you don't have a significant gang present,

11:35

but the violence that you see, most

11:37

of which, to be quite honest out

11:39

here, is domestic violence. Somebody's dropped high.

11:41

They beat on a girl or they

11:43

beat on each other, or they sexually

11:45

assaulted a child. Like that's the stuff

11:47

that we would we would see a

11:49

we would see a lot. A lot

11:51

of places would call it a DA,

11:53

a district attorney, that's just not the

11:55

right term for here, but it's the

11:57

same job. She should be prosecuting the

12:00

same stuff. Low to medium level, drug

12:02

possession or distribution. Idaho is not a

12:04

state that really has a conspiracy. the

12:06

state level, and then a lot of

12:08

the violent crime was generally domestic in

12:10

nature, between domestic partners, between friends, and

12:12

then a lot of sexual assault. And

12:14

those would usually, not always, but usually

12:16

involve some type of drug and or

12:18

alcohol use. When you involve children, that

12:20

was sometimes the case, but not always

12:22

we saw on the reservation, and then

12:24

she saw out in the regular community

12:27

significant sexual predator crimes for kids. But

12:29

a lot of that stuff, to be

12:31

quite honest for your listeners, isn't stranger.

12:33

The vast majority of sexual crimes towards

12:35

children is a trusted family member or

12:37

a trusted associate. So a schoolteacher, a

12:39

priest, the neighbor that's always at the

12:41

house, or one of my wife's big

12:43

jury trials was fought and sexually assaulted

12:45

all of his children in pre-provescent year.

12:47

Unbelievable with it. For about a decade,

12:49

eight. Man, do you talk about it

12:52

for a virgin's environment? Holy cow? Holy

12:54

cow. what year was. Yeah, 2019. So

12:56

I was here in 2019 and then

12:58

I worked at three plus years and

13:00

then the train came off the tracks

13:02

in 2022. Well, let's see. So the

13:04

bad administration comes in and you guys

13:06

start getting directives from your headquarters and

13:08

you talked yesterday about how the Bureau

13:10

is kind of centric to the headquarters

13:12

as this is developed over the years

13:14

directing what the fields should do, right?

13:16

And I think that's probably true for

13:19

most federal law enforcement agencies, but it

13:21

seems like the Bureau really, I mean,

13:23

it's almost like they put handcuffs on

13:25

you, investigators in the field to tell

13:27

you, don't worry about that, this is

13:29

your focus now. Was that a fair

13:31

statement to say? I mean, we could

13:33

spend hours talking about that topic. As

13:35

much as I flew the Bureau flag

13:37

really high, and I was very proud

13:39

to be an FBI agent, and I

13:41

worked really hard. Those of us that

13:44

were in the field trying to get

13:46

work done, trying to get work done,

13:48

it was a... to a degree, trying

13:50

to be successful in spite of the

13:52

Bureau. I mean, the Bureau added policy

13:54

by the bucket loads, sometimes bucket loads

13:56

by the day. And when I came

13:58

in in 2008 and 2009, it was

14:00

post 9-11 and it was still everything

14:02

international terrorism, right? Radical is... and it

14:04

was you better find it. And I

14:06

had times where my first case on

14:08

the JTTF, I got handed phone numbers

14:11

that were eight parts removed from a

14:13

suspected terrorist, and it was get a

14:15

case up on them, and then we

14:17

want FISA, and it was, it was,

14:19

get a case up on them, and

14:21

then we want FISAs, and it was,

14:23

it was, get a case up on

14:25

them, and then we want FISA. And

14:27

it was, it was, it was, it,

14:29

You know, you lose the message, you

14:31

lose the impact, but what took premise

14:33

was stats that meant, didn't mean shit

14:36

to anybody, you know, and no longer

14:38

was how many indictments did you do,

14:40

how many criminal complaints did you get,

14:42

how many search warrants did you execute,

14:44

and then it was other numbers, disruptions

14:46

and dismountable. And I don't mean to

14:48

interrupt you, but you mentioned FISA, can

14:50

you just explain that real quick? Yeah,

14:52

FISA, foreign intelligence, surveillance act. In all

14:54

cases, you were expected to, by law.

14:56

pursue the least intrusive technique available to

14:58

you to gather the evidence you need

15:00

to determine criminal conduct and present it

15:03

in the courts. Very well said. Well,

15:05

on the criminal side, what is available

15:07

to you are subpoenas, either an administrative

15:09

subpoena or a grand jury subpoena. What

15:11

subpoenas will get you would be like

15:13

basic full record. So like if you're

15:15

trying to determine if person A is

15:17

a drug dealer, you've got information that

15:19

they are coming from an informant or

15:21

a debrief of somebody. A subpoena just

15:23

needs to really be in furtherance of

15:25

your predicated investigation and you can go

15:28

and ask for person A called person

15:30

A B C D E and F.

15:32

So toll records from your phone company

15:34

and then also subscriber records. The same

15:36

thing to some degree with financial records.

15:38

You can get those with a subpoena.

15:40

But you can't get content of anything

15:42

with a subpoena. That would require a

15:44

search warrant for content. Or if you're

15:46

trying to get live content, that would

15:48

be a title-through wiretap, like we talked

15:50

about earlier. Reasons that you might use

15:52

the FISA is if you have classified

15:55

information in your case, or in the

15:57

Bureau's case, The international terrorism investigation is

15:59

classified simply because it is an international

16:01

terrorism investigation. There's a whole other talk

16:03

about the FBI overclassifying everything. But you

16:05

can't take classified information to the grand

16:07

jury. You can't take classified information to

16:09

a judge. You'd have to go through

16:11

a declassification process first. You're not likely

16:13

to do that if you're in the

16:15

midst of an investigation. So the federal

16:17

government created the FISA courts. So the

16:20

FISA courts are judges. security clearances and

16:22

you would present like you would in

16:24

a criminal court you would present affidavit

16:26

in furtherance of whatever you're asking for.

16:28

So search warrants, pen register, trap and

16:30

trace, title three wiretaps, they just don't

16:32

call it a title three wiretap, they

16:34

would call it a FISA. FISA's just

16:36

kind of an all-encompassing term for anything

16:38

that you get from that court, which

16:40

again would be probable cause statement-based requests

16:42

for authorization. request to search something, search

16:44

a physical residence, search an electronic, something,

16:47

trap and trace data would be live

16:49

exchanges of information between phone A and

16:51

phone, whatever they're calling, and then live

16:53

intercepts. There's some other nuanced differences there

16:55

where there's not a FISA court in

16:57

every judicial district in the country, so

16:59

a lot of it is done remotely.

17:01

So that's the FISA court in a

17:03

nutshell and when you're working international terrorism

17:05

or counter intelligence in the FBI FISA

17:07

courts generally where it's at. Domestic terrorism

17:09

is still under, they're not classified cases

17:11

on their face and they are allowed

17:14

access to the criminal courts to seek

17:16

normal grand jury subpoenas, certain warrants from

17:18

a normal federal magistrate or district judge,

17:20

etc. Yeah. And thanks for explaining that.

17:22

I know it's kind of a long

17:24

explanation, but it's important because that's what

17:26

goes on in our country and that's

17:28

how. classified things get done. You know,

17:30

you mentioned that some judges are authorized

17:32

to handle, to address FISA issues. You'd

17:34

kind of think that they all were,

17:36

but that's how protective we are of

17:39

what goes on under the FISA umbrella.

17:41

So when people like at Jackass Snowden

17:43

came along and disclosed a lot of

17:45

classified information, those were programs that were

17:47

extremely beneficial to the protection. of our

17:49

country. And the accusations that Big Brother's

17:51

watching you and there's no oversight, that's

17:53

all BS. He portrayed it completely wrong

17:55

and I hope that nobody ever pardons

17:57

his happy ass and hope he dies

17:59

over in Russia is what I'd prefer,

18:01

but it's just myrths opinion. Oh, now

18:03

you're out there and and so we've

18:06

got the new president's in position, Biden,

18:08

start getting directives from your headquarters that

18:10

domestic terrorism and hate crimes is going

18:12

to become a priority, which I'm fine.

18:14

Within constraints, the domestic terrorism flavor of

18:16

the day had honestly started to perculate

18:18

up as a priority for the Bureau

18:20

under the Obama administration didn't really change

18:22

significantly from the Bureau's perspective during the

18:24

Trump administration, even though you had folks

18:26

like Jeff Sessions as the AG were

18:28

crime, crime, which I don't agree with

18:31

either. Let's let's find criminals and let's

18:33

put them in prison. Like that's the

18:35

whole point of what we do. So

18:37

would Biden came into office. It just

18:39

came in on the heels of this

18:41

continued push for you have to find

18:43

domestic terrorism. Soon after that, Attorney General

18:45

Merrick Garland came out and said that

18:47

white nationalism and white supremacy was the

18:49

greatest threat to the country. You had

18:51

that message generally echoed by FBI Director

18:53

Ray, and you got folks like myself

18:55

at the bottom end of that totem

18:58

pole, if you will, feeling all the

19:00

pressure of you have to find it.

19:02

And in a place like North Idaho,

19:04

There's a complicated history. You've got Ruby

19:06

Ridge was here. You've got the area

19:08

nations compound was here. Both cases are

19:10

linked, but they also both go back

19:12

to kind of an antique government extremism

19:14

mentality or an allegation thereof and white

19:16

supremacy or white nationalism mentality or allegation

19:18

thereof. So there's a lot of pressure

19:20

on me and on my team to

19:23

find domestic terrorism, but at the same

19:25

time there's no domestic terrorism acts. Like

19:27

there's no violent crime happening here. I'm

19:29

not getting a bunch of... Back in

19:31

the day with the Aryan nations... compound

19:33

and the order, which is a movie

19:35

that recently came out, with another amazing

19:37

former FBI agent Wayne Manus and Tommy

19:39

Norris work in that case. They were

19:41

not focused on the area nations compound

19:43

because they're a bunch of white nationalists,

19:45

which many of them were, offshoot of

19:47

those guys that were trying to raise

19:50

money, collect arms for a race war,

19:52

but they were knocking off armored cars.

19:54

Like they were doing legitimate Hobbs Act

19:56

robberies, bank robberies, violent crime, killing people,

19:58

and that's what the Bureau. took notice

20:00

of and that's what they targeted. Well,

20:02

you don't have those crimes, then you're

20:04

just trying to react to the pressure

20:06

coming from headquarters of Louisville. It has

20:08

to be there. You're in North Auto.

20:10

You have to find it. And I

20:12

think that's just contextual for your listeners

20:15

to understand that. I swear or else

20:17

to uphold the Constitution of the United

20:19

States, but you also have to answer

20:21

to lawful orders of your superiors. And

20:23

you've got all this policy in between

20:25

coming out of DOJ, coming out of

20:27

the FBI, the app, you'll abide by.

20:29

You don't just get to willy-nilly saying,

20:31

no, I'm not going to look for

20:33

that. Is it legal for me to

20:35

go look for X, Y, or Z?

20:37

If it is, then I'll do it.

20:39

If it isn't, then I'm not going

20:42

to do it. You also are not

20:44

going to work in a place like

20:46

the FBI and have folks that are

20:48

placing that pressure on you that are

20:50

going to openly tell you to do

20:52

something that's illegal until it gets real

20:54

extreme. And we could talk about that

20:56

real extreme answer. Yeah, we're going to.

20:58

Yes, we are. So you've got this

21:00

mandate now that to address hate crimes

21:02

and you actually go find a couple

21:04

instances, right? I mean, there were a

21:07

couple of just violent incidents we had.

21:09

that I heard of from the local

21:11

Ferris office or the police department or

21:13

the prosecutor's office. My wife working in

21:15

the prosecutor's office, I had pretty solid

21:17

relationship there and knew what was going

21:19

on. I mean, you haven't had a

21:21

white male at the local rest area,

21:23

just a knife and lunged that and

21:25

swung it at a black male. I

21:27

think his family used a racial epitaph

21:29

as he was doing it. So, I

21:31

mean, just basic assault. The evidence would

21:34

indicate that he's doing it. if race

21:36

is his motivating factor. Because he's yelling

21:38

the n-word at this person and a

21:40

bunch of other racial epitopes while he's

21:42

swinging away. Fortunately, the guy is able

21:44

to matrix his way away from the

21:46

blade and not be cut up by

21:48

it. And the guy walks away, but

21:50

he stays until a sheriff's deputy or

21:52

two shows up and then ultimately takes

21:54

me into custody. I presented that to

21:56

the attorney's office, didn't get any indication

21:58

that they wanted to prosecute it, so

22:01

it stayed with the. the state and

22:03

Cootenie County ultimately convicted him for this

22:05

Idaho state's version of a hate crime.

22:07

And then there was another one, an

22:09

allegation where similar, a Hispanic male was

22:11

beat up and assaulted after the bars

22:13

closed in court a lane and again

22:15

was called a bunch of racial epithets

22:17

in the process of beating him up.

22:19

I brought that to the U.S. Attorney's

22:21

office and again didn't get any takers.

22:23

So again, the county pressed forward with

22:26

those charges. Several problems were presented to

22:28

me before taking the supervisor position here

22:30

in court of lane and the lack

22:32

of prosecutorial vigor out of the U.S.

22:34

Attorney's Office in Idaho and in particular

22:36

the court lane office was brought to

22:38

my attention before I got here. So...

22:40

getting we're not really interested wasn't my

22:42

first rodeo on that conversation but I

22:44

was doing my due diligence to press

22:46

it and I knew the county was

22:48

going to prosecute him the Cooney County

22:50

Prosecutor's Office has got a great reputation

22:53

for aggression they'll take a turn and

22:55

march it right down in football field

22:57

and if it's got convictable evidence more

22:59

often not they're going to get a

23:01

conviction I'd put my weight behind some

23:03

sexual assault cases off the Indian reservations

23:05

that didn't always bear any fruit which

23:07

really pissed me off. You don't have

23:09

a county that can take it, because

23:11

the tribe really can't do much with

23:13

it. And when you've got children being

23:15

sexually assaulted by adults, I don't care

23:18

that it's in the same family. That

23:20

needs to be prosecuted by the federal

23:22

government, because we're the only ones in

23:24

town giving the treaties. So getting back

23:26

to the hate crime issue, if there's

23:28

evidence of it, one, you can't make

23:30

it up. If it happens, and if

23:32

you got evidence that supports that it,

23:34

it, it's a violation of federal law

23:36

under federal law under the federal law

23:38

under the federal law under the federal

23:40

law under the the U.S.S. Attorney in

23:42

summer of 2022. I brought those two

23:45

instances up and he just kind of

23:47

shrugged and said that he was a

23:49

bit more interested in having conferences than

23:51

he was about those two cases. Well,

23:53

you know, it's hard to lose a

23:55

conference, but you run a chance of

23:57

losing a criminal case, right? And that's

23:59

just it. Your story is obvious in

24:01

Idaho. Many does not like to lose

24:03

a case. The one case that I

24:05

had heard of that had gone to

24:07

a jury trial up here in a

24:10

court of here in court trial up

24:12

here in Cortland that had. That does

24:14

not build a culture. Plenty of people

24:16

right now in the news are talking

24:18

about the culture and the FBI and

24:20

you and I can talk about the

24:22

films in FBI culture. The U.S. Tourists

24:24

have got some culture issues that they

24:26

need to be looked at as well.

24:28

There are gatekeepers. The FBI, DEA, ATF,

24:30

you name the acronym that's in the

24:32

criminal investigative world. You don't get anywhere

24:34

without the assistance of the U.S. Attorney's

24:37

office and without... that go ahead to

24:39

take it into court. So if you

24:41

have U.S. Attorney's offices across the country,

24:43

regardless of whether or not it's a

24:45

Democrat or Republican appointed U.S. attorney, if

24:47

their culture is not swing away, then

24:49

inevitably you're going to get a bunch

24:51

of cases that could go to court,

24:53

got guys and gals that committed real

24:55

criminal conduct that don't go to prison

24:57

for it because they're just not prosecuted

24:59

by the U.S. Attorney. Right. On June

25:02

11th, 2022, now this is a day

25:04

etched in your memory for the rest

25:06

of your life, I'm sure. And this

25:08

is during what's called the Pride in

25:10

the Park event there. Can you tell

25:12

us what's going on there and what

25:14

eventually happens? Sure. All right, so there

25:16

was a June 11th, there was a

25:18

pre-plan before COVID, I think it had

25:20

been kind of an annual pride in

25:22

the park event, LGBTQ event, perfectly legal,

25:24

they get permits. for the park on

25:26

the lake and just like any other

25:29

public event they haven't called event in

25:31

this case coming off of the black

25:33

lives matter protest and the the north

25:35

idaho response to that of taking your

25:37

guns for a walk in downtown quarter

25:39

lane. You had a counter political group

25:41

that was not supportive of the LGBTQ

25:43

movement and there had been some open

25:45

rhetoric back and forth on social media

25:47

and in media interviews about this group

25:49

on the right side of the political

25:51

spectrum, if you will, saying that they

25:54

weren't going to stand for this LGBTQ

25:56

movement and that it was debauchery. whatever

25:58

terms they wanted to associate with. Again,

26:00

it was their terms. They're right to

26:02

say it. They were saying some inflammatory

26:04

stuff, like if they want a war,

26:06

let them have it here now, or

26:08

let it be here, then you'd have

26:10

some, less so, but you'd have some

26:12

response from the pro-LC group saying, well,

26:14

drag queens can bring their guns to

26:16

town too. So we had generalized information

26:18

that we were sharing, we, the FBI,

26:21

or sharing with county sheriff, a quarterway,

26:23

police, police, department, Idaho State Police, all

26:25

the things that we would expect us

26:27

to do. Portland Police Department had a

26:29

command post the day of the event

26:31

just because of all that was going

26:33

on. They asked me to be in

26:35

it. I was. I didn't have any

26:37

of my agents out working that day

26:39

because we didn't have any specific threat.

26:41

But you had a tense day in

26:43

Portland. You had a lot of folks

26:45

openly carrying guns lawfully in downtown Portland.

26:48

You had a countergroup. You had the

26:50

LGBTQ groups. It wasn't clear all the

26:52

time who was who when you see

26:54

somebody walking around with an AR-15 across

26:56

their chest. At the quarterly police department

26:58

in possession of the information from a

27:00

West Coast police department that there was

27:02

20 or 25 or something that affected.

27:04

Antifa members in town ready to go

27:06

to war if things got feisty. There's

27:08

nothing scary in North Idaho than Antifa

27:10

coming to town and, you know, having

27:13

courts to earth policy. So a 911

27:15

call came in that there was... 20

27:17

or so individuals getting in the back

27:19

of a U-Haul box truck and they

27:21

were carrying poles and they had face

27:23

masks on and they were looking like

27:25

a little army. Well, the PD went

27:27

into action, found a U-Haul truck, pulled

27:29

it over and pulled out 31 individuals

27:31

with flagpoles and some homemade shields, all

27:33

wearing hacky and blue shirts and little

27:35

white face skaters. baseball cap out of

27:37

that truck and we watched it on

27:40

the Twitter feed of a suspected Antifa

27:42

member from the command post and we

27:44

watched all kind of scratching their heads

27:46

as to what was happening but it

27:48

wasn't likely to be Antifa right because

27:50

it's wrong colors and it turned out

27:52

it was a group called the Patriot

27:54

Front which is a white nationalist kind

27:56

of group that is known to protest

27:58

around the country a dozen or more

28:00

times a year. They'd never come to

28:02

court lane before. But they had their

28:05

same accoutrement known to travel run and

28:07

box trucks for that. They're a bunch

28:09

of idiots. Being an idiot isn't against

28:11

federal law. Or state law. Well, I

28:13

mean, the police chief took what I

28:15

would consider a police response, which was,

28:17

I don't know who these guys are,

28:19

but everybody's going to jail today. So

28:21

he charged him with a misdemeanor crime

28:23

of conspiracy to riot, which is underneath

28:25

there. disturbing the peace statute. In other

28:27

words, it's like conspiracy to disturb the

28:29

peace. And they all got hooked up

28:32

and they all went to jail for

28:34

a couple hours and then they all

28:36

came out and they all went back

28:38

downtown and ended up pamphlets and so

28:40

forth. Well, that made national news for

28:42

those that remember that, if not, you

28:44

can get on the internet and you

28:46

can get on the internet and you

28:48

can look it up. Plenty of images

28:50

of those guys on their knees being

28:52

handcuffed by the sheriff's office or the

28:54

police department. through transition, all of which

28:57

is fine, but she's in one of

28:59

the individuals that pressed for action against

29:01

this group. It was arrested. Initially, the

29:03

U.S. Attorney's Office wanted to find federal

29:05

charges for these guys. And then it

29:07

quickly became evident that there wasn't anything

29:09

to federally charge them with. But they

29:11

weren't deterred. The U.S. Attorney's Office and

29:13

DOJ wanted to do something to what

29:15

would appear, and again, this is my

29:17

personal opinion. It would appear that from

29:19

the facts of what I saw they

29:21

wanted to plant the flag that. they

29:24

were doing something about Merck Island's number

29:26

one threat priority. So I did my

29:28

updates to headquarters over the next couple

29:30

of days, and I quickly learned from

29:32

FBI headquarters that this group was well

29:34

known to be a peaceful protest group.

29:36

that they'd been looked at numerous times

29:38

by the FBI, used numerous investigative techniques,

29:40

and this group did not commit acts

29:42

of violence. And in fact, they would

29:44

throw people out of their group for

29:46

committing acts of violence or discussing acts

29:49

of violence or wanting to be more

29:51

aggressive. So there was nothing evidentiary wise

29:53

to indicate that this group was going

29:55

to do something different than what it

29:57

had done in every other protest that

29:59

it had gone to. They have no

30:01

history of violence. No, now some people

30:03

would say, well, this group grew out

30:05

of one of the groups that was

30:07

at Charlottesville. Okay, the founder of this

30:09

group was at the Charlottesville event, the

30:11

United Right event, but he was not

30:13

charged with anything. And again, you can't

30:16

be guilty by association in the eyes

30:18

of federal law enforcement. And that is

30:20

where things really started to come apart

30:22

with the advocacy by DOJ and the

30:24

US Attorney's Office of trying to paint

30:26

these guys as a right wing violent

30:28

extremists and my agents and my team

30:30

saying that the fact they'll support that

30:32

argument. So again, you can't be guilty

30:34

by association, which the initial association was,

30:36

this group was like any other right

30:38

wing extremist group. They're violent, just like

30:41

they were on January 6th. And they

30:43

wanted to compare this group to January

30:45

6th. But none of these individuals were

30:47

suspected of being at the Capitol on

30:49

January 6th, and the group wasn't in

30:51

Washington DC protesting on January 6th. This

30:53

group protested stuff like satanic temples, Black

30:55

Lives Matter, Occupy Ice events, and then

30:57

obviously Day Pride events. So again, is

30:59

it against federal law to be in

31:01

a satanic group? No, it is not.

31:03

As long as you're not advocating for

31:05

violations of law. But if you want

31:08

to approach this, that group, you could

31:10

do that too, as long as you

31:12

do it peacefully. And if these guys

31:14

have a track record of doing it

31:16

peacefully, over and over and over, if

31:18

these guys have a track record of

31:20

doing it peacefully, over and over and

31:22

over again, then what's the evidence? That's

31:24

a track record of doing it doing

31:26

it peacefully over doing it peacefully over,

31:28

the investigation. and that they were going

31:30

to be the ones to write an

31:32

affidavit and then they would determine if

31:35

there was probable cause and they just

31:37

had to have my agents review it

31:39

and swear it out. I'm sure Murf,

31:41

you are well aware that it's not

31:43

a term you'd ever want to hear

31:45

come out of the U.S. Attorney's office

31:47

that they're leading an investigation. They have

31:49

no statutory authority to lead an investment.

31:51

Right, right. But they were putting their

31:53

foot down pretty hard here. My front

31:55

office and their stellar lack of leadership

31:57

pretty much just said, Zach, figure out

32:00

a way to work it out. So

32:02

they wrote a search warrant. My agents

32:04

reviewed it. My agents were not willing

32:06

to attest to it and did not

32:08

feel like it was factually accurate. Again,

32:10

it had pictures of January 6th in

32:12

it. These guys weren't there. They wanted

32:14

to ballpark say that this was just

32:16

another violent right wing extremist group, but

32:18

there's no history of violence. They wouldn't

32:20

say that, well, there was violence at

32:22

Charlottesville, United the right, and this group

32:24

came out of that. But none of

32:27

the individuals in this group in this

32:29

group were charged. the one individual you

32:31

know at the right that was charged

32:33

with murder murdered somebody and he went

32:35

to prison for it as an individual

32:37

rightly so so my agents weren't willing

32:39

to swear it out and that's when

32:41

I tried to get between my agents

32:43

in the US Attorney's office and I

32:45

tried to get my FBI front office

32:47

to my back and instead of having

32:49

my back they walked away got some

32:52

mixed signals we got email communications from

32:54

FDA headquarters when they started to become

32:56

aware that there was this real push

32:58

coming out of the US Attorney's office

33:00

to get this and my agents weren't

33:02

willing to swear it out. FBI headquarters,

33:04

counterterrorism division, said we don't as an

33:06

agency support agents being pressured to swear

33:08

out warrants because we've got a bad

33:10

history of agents being pressured to swear

33:12

out warrants. And they specifically used their

33:14

crossfire hurricane investigation into the Trump campaign

33:16

as an example of agents saying that

33:19

they were pressured to swear out warrants

33:21

and that there was held to pay.

33:23

with Congress after the fact. But that

33:25

didn't deter the U.S. Attorney's office, didn't

33:27

deter DOJ, and did not bolster my

33:29

support with my front office, which was

33:31

being pushed by the U.S. Attorney's office

33:33

that they wanted what they wanted, which

33:35

was they wanted this warrant. And I

33:37

think what's important for your listeners to

33:39

understand is the FBI didn't have a

33:41

federal investigation here. We had an administrative

33:44

file to assist the police department. The

33:46

police department had an investigation for their

33:48

misdemeanor charges. the vehicles associated with these

33:50

guys, and they were going to execute

33:52

search warrants for their electronic devices, cell

33:54

phones, GoPro cameras, and the like. The

33:56

U.S. Attorney's Office was preventing them from

33:58

going forward with that state search warrant.

34:00

I had given the police department language

34:02

to include in their state search warrant

34:04

so that the FBI could help them

34:06

search it. We were in a row,

34:08

we were ready to assist, and it's

34:11

evidence of a federal crime, became available

34:13

to us along the way. I don't

34:15

think that was the point. I tried

34:17

to press that my front office, two

34:19

weeks after June 11th, that they'd reviewed

34:21

the U.S. Attorney's officer's warrant, had not

34:23

found it to be factually accurate. They

34:25

weren't willing to say that there's probable

34:27

cause, that this group was going to

34:29

conspire to riot under the federal riot

34:31

statute, and I indicated that the front

34:33

office needed to support them in that,

34:36

or that the FBI needed to regain

34:38

some control of this, and... look at

34:40

the facts and consider if we should

34:42

write our own warrant. But that the,

34:44

at the end of the day, if

34:46

a warrant was ever presented to the

34:48

court after my, it said that this

34:50

isn't a good warrant and that they

34:52

weren't willing to say there's probable cause

34:54

here, that our obligation is to be

34:56

transparent with the court. You have to

34:58

tell the magistrate that if there wasn't

35:00

a consensus and you had to find

35:03

somebody else to swear out a warrant

35:05

because other guys weren't, magistrate needs to

35:07

know that. You're trained that. There is

35:09

no playing, you don't hide and seek

35:11

from federal madrigate. Unfortunately, that turned out

35:13

to not be the case from federal

35:15

madrigate. Unfortunately, that turned out to not

35:17

be the case with enough political pressure.

35:19

I was told no to hide and

35:21

seek from federal madrigrit. Unfortunately, I told

35:23

them both that. review it, take your

35:25

time, if you're comfortable with it, speaks

35:28

the truth, then we'll open a predicated

35:30

investigation, you can swear out that warrant

35:32

and we'll move on. If you're not

35:34

okay with that warrant, that's okay too.

35:36

You just got to come and tell

35:38

me why and we'll all move on.

35:40

Well they both ultimately came back on

35:42

their own and told me that they

35:44

were not willing to wear out that

35:46

warrant, that it wasn't accurate with the

35:48

facts as they'd known. They had spoken

35:50

with other case agents that had looked

35:52

at this group over the preceding couple

35:55

of years, that they were aware of

35:57

what this group and what the individuals

35:59

in it did to prevent its members

36:01

from committing acts of violence. And there

36:03

was no real evidence to support that

36:05

they were going to do anything violent

36:07

or anything other than just lawfully protest

36:09

and give their own opinion in downtown

36:11

Cordellain that weekend. And they weren't willing

36:13

to put their name on a bad

36:15

warrant. I said, that's not a problem.

36:17

My front office, that was a problem.

36:19

and they weren't willing to accept that

36:22

response from two of my four agents

36:24

and they instead instructed me to find

36:26

an agent that would be willing to

36:28

swear it out. Give it to somebody

36:30

else, see if they'll do it. And

36:32

I said no. And I said you

36:34

don't take a warrant, the two agents

36:36

won't swear out because they're saying it's

36:38

bad warrant and find somebody that doesn't

36:40

know anything about it and just says

36:42

well that reads well. and being an

36:44

accurate recitation of the facts are two

36:47

very different things. You can have a

36:49

TFO that can't write for anything, it

36:51

doesn't know what a period is, can

36:53

write an actual affidavit or a factual

36:55

affidavit that can go before a court.

36:57

But you can't wordsmith a piece of

36:59

fiction and present it before a court

37:01

and swear that it is true and

37:03

correct to the best of your ability.

37:05

Right. So if you happen to do

37:07

that, and then defense attorneys are going

37:09

to pursue this vigorously as far as

37:11

they can, and it's determined that the

37:14

agents that signed that affidavit, it really

37:16

wasn't true, he's now got a problem

37:18

called the Giglio issue, right? I don't.

37:20

Which means he can never testify a

37:22

federal court again, and so how can

37:24

you be a federal agent if you

37:26

can't testify a federal court? Exactly, and

37:28

under rare instances, perjury is a federal

37:30

crime. If it's an extreme instance... an

37:32

agent could find themselves potentially federally prosecuted

37:34

for perjuring themselves. And as I indicated

37:36

to Congress and to Director Ray, when

37:39

I started filing my whistleblower complaints that

37:41

suborning perjury, pressuring me to get these

37:43

agents to swear out this affidavit is

37:45

also federal crime. Didn't change things. So

37:47

as a result of you doing the

37:49

right thing, of you living up to

37:51

your oath, of you standing up for

37:53

the people that work for you, presenting

37:55

the facts, not the supposition. to your

37:57

leadership, which have ultimately made it to

37:59

the FBI headquarters and over to DOJ,

38:01

what happened to you? They promote you?

38:03

Sunshine and Rosen, buddy. Sunshine and Rosa.

38:06

I wish. When I refuse to pressure

38:08

my agents to go back and continue

38:10

to edit this affidavit until they would

38:12

come to a yes, or when I

38:14

refuse to find an agent shop this

38:16

thing around until somebody was just willing

38:18

to swear it out, I subsequently got

38:20

a phone call that... this affidavit was

38:22

on the attorney general's death, DAG, Lisa

38:24

Monaco, and that this was a big

38:26

deal and that they'd lost confidence in

38:28

me. I lost confidence in my leadership,

38:31

quote unquote. And I was removed initially

38:33

from the case and it was given

38:35

to another FBI supervisor who I now

38:37

know had agreed to swear out that

38:39

warrant herself before she'd ever read it,

38:41

before she even knew who wrote it.

38:43

That individual has perjured themselves a lot

38:45

as have the assistant U.S. attorneys that

38:47

pushed this through. Within about a week

38:49

after I was removed from the case

38:51

I took leave and I left town,

38:53

I was headed back home to Montana

38:55

and started getting calls from my local

38:58

partners that they were being interviewed very

39:00

uncomfortably by my executive management team and

39:02

that they referred to it as setups

39:04

that I had supposedly ruined everything in

39:06

North Idaho according to my executive management

39:08

team and that they just need to

39:10

concur with that statement. And state police

39:12

and police departments that were communicating with

39:14

me were not willing to go. concur

39:16

with that statement. But it was pretty

39:18

clear that something was about a foot.

39:20

Even though I had warned my front

39:23

office numerous times that what they were

39:25

doing was wrong, I started filing quote-unquote

39:27

official whistleblower complaints to DOJ OIG, ultimately

39:29

ended up going up to the deputy

39:31

director and the director and then into

39:33

the Congress. But it didn't change the

39:35

direction of what was happening to me.

39:37

Within 10 days, I think of me

39:39

having the case removed for me, my...

39:41

especially in charge of Salt Lake Division

39:43

called me and very angrily told me

39:45

that I had embarrassed the FBI and

39:47

embarrassed him and that he was talking

39:50

to headquarters about it and he would

39:52

cut off any questions that I gave

39:54

him and ultimately I just said I

39:56

was not trying to be unprofessional but

39:58

I wanted him to know that what

40:00

he was doing was wrong and that

40:02

I did not believe what he was

40:04

doing was in good faith and that

40:06

I wanted him to know I'd already

40:08

filed an official whistleblower complaint for the

40:10

conduct of his office, the US Attorney's

40:12

Office of DOJ. And his simple response

40:15

was, well, take Zach, that's your right.

40:17

I'm just going to cast me off.

40:19

In the coming weeks, I now know

40:21

that they were referring me to FBI

40:23

security division, to have my security clearance

40:25

pulled. They were referring me to insider

40:27

threat, consider me an insider threat. They

40:29

were referring me to human resources division

40:31

to get me transferred and they were

40:33

referring me to inspection division to get

40:35

administrative inspections opened up on me. Ultimately

40:37

and against the advice of human resources

40:39

division they tried to pursue a loss

40:42

of effectiveness transfer. So two months after

40:44

receiving glowing reviews on my performance check-in

40:46

and after three years of good performance

40:48

reviews, suddenly I was failing everything and

40:50

they walked me out of the quarter

40:52

lane office. They told me that I

40:54

was to leave immediately, I was to

40:56

take my laptops and go home and

40:58

not... return. Now it's not to speak

41:00

to my squad. And then within a

41:02

couple days of that I got an

41:04

email ordering me to West Virginia. The

41:06

other side of the country from my

41:09

office. my team, my wife, my kids,

41:11

and my dad, who I was off

41:13

for the character for. So I think

41:15

for context for your listeners, you know,

41:17

there's other stories and stuff that are

41:19

out there about government whistleblowers, FBI whistleblower.

41:21

It happens and it's real. I'm here

41:23

to tell you it's real. There is

41:25

a playbook that FBI management can use

41:27

that if they want to get you,

41:29

they will. So initially they sent me

41:31

to West Virginia. and hit me with

41:34

a loss of effectiveness transfer, accusing me

41:36

of everything under the sun from not

41:38

being able to work with women, to

41:40

being a liar, to being toxic, to

41:42

ruining the relationships with all of my

41:44

partners in North Idaho to the point

41:46

that no one would work with the

41:48

FBI anymore because of me, and the

41:50

only resolution was to send me somewhere

41:52

else. I had to reach out to

41:54

all my partners and just say, hey,

41:56

I'm being accused. of this and that,

41:58

free to write up your own thoughts.

42:01

And subsequently, I sent 37 letters back

42:03

to Human Resources Division with people writing

42:05

their own opinions of Zach Shelfstall, whether

42:07

that was DEA agents I'd work with.

42:09

Yeah, Special agents in charge, I'd work

42:11

for. police departments in North Idaho, sheriffs

42:13

offices, tribal agencies, child advocacy centers, prosecutorial

42:15

offices, and one of the most humbling

42:17

experiences in my life, Murf, you have

42:19

that many people that on their own

42:21

are willing to step up and hold

42:23

the line with you, and that's some

42:26

pretty powerful stuff. Made me cry a

42:28

lot of time. I'm reading those letters.

42:30

At the same time that my balls

42:32

are getting kicked in by the FBI,

42:34

and they're saying something very different. office

42:36

and ultimately opened up an internal investigation

42:38

into me and the two agents that

42:40

refused to throw out that warrant and

42:42

they used that to fire me. He

42:44

said that my judgment in not pursuing

42:46

a more aggressive investigation into this Patriot

42:48

Front group was wrong and rose to

42:50

severe misconduct and there's no room left

42:53

in the FBI for you. I got

42:55

that letter via FedEx. I mean it's

42:57

been a road, Mirth. I got to

42:59

say, you know, for all the fun

43:01

and all the good people that I

43:03

met in the FBI, I also got

43:05

to see how poor leadership. are in

43:07

FBI executive management and how much political

43:09

pressure at our DOJ can really swing

43:11

the needle all the way to the

43:13

bottom. Um, I wouldn't change anything I

43:15

did, but I have maybe pushed harder

43:18

at the beginning and hoped that maybe

43:20

I could have gotten the police department

43:22

to execute their search warrant and then

43:24

we'd have quickly realized that there's no

43:26

evidence to support federal riot statute. Then

43:28

it would have done done. I would

43:30

like to think it would have been

43:32

done done right there. It had been

43:34

dead on arrival. But I couldn't get

43:36

there. I can always wonder, well, could

43:38

I have just pushed a little bit

43:40

harder and maybe I could have gotten

43:42

it done. They punished my agents too,

43:45

but somewhat minimally, they've tried to place

43:47

it all on me, which is how

43:49

I would have it as a leader.

43:51

I always told my guys are left

43:53

and right limits, and if they were

43:55

working between them, I would have their

43:57

back. And I did. But as my

43:59

wife said when I got walked out

44:01

of the office, you fall on your

44:03

sword for real, it cuts you. And

44:05

it does. And it was so much

44:07

your identity has wrapped up in being

44:10

a special agent. It is real cutting.

44:12

Real cutting. And when they isolate you

44:14

from your family, they isolate you from

44:16

your team, and then they start hammering

44:18

you with, you're a horrible person. You're

44:20

not just a bad agent. You're not

44:22

just a bad investigator, you're a bad

44:24

person, you're bad at your core. People

44:26

won't even be around you. When you

44:28

start realizing how far some folks will

44:30

go and lie, it really upsets the

44:32

apple card of your perspective on your

44:34

organization and on aspects of life. I

44:37

realize after the fact that during the

44:39

same week... that I'm having meetings with

44:41

my direct supervisor and all of my

44:43

criminal investigative supervisory peers about where we're

44:45

going that year and you know what

44:47

priorities we were going to work at

44:49

literally that same week. My supervisor and

44:51

the other ASACs and the SEC are

44:53

telling Fear to Division, Human Resources Division,

44:55

Insider Threat that I'm such a bad

44:57

person that under no set of circumstances

44:59

can I be allowed to remain in

45:02

the office or come down to Salt

45:04

Lake City. because no one will work

45:06

with me. At the same time, everybody's

45:08

in the same room with me and

45:10

we're all just trying to figure out

45:12

how we're prioritizing our resources, what we're

45:14

going to investigate that year, what are

45:16

our resource shortfalls, etc. So for showing

45:18

integrity and living up to your oath,

45:20

this is what you get. Unfortunately a

45:22

time, but... It's horrible. I mean, now

45:24

a listener will know why I got

45:26

pissed off when I heard your story.

45:29

This is outrageous. Here's a man that

45:31

served his country in the military and

45:33

then continued to serve in the FBI

45:35

in a very honorable position who knows

45:37

when probable cause exists and when it

45:39

doesn't. And if you try to push

45:41

it when it doesn't, that's when you

45:43

get in trouble, who refused to order

45:45

his people to lie under oath because

45:47

they didn't believe in that affidavit. ticks

45:49

you off so bad. But when they

45:51

do this to somebody who has sacrificed

45:53

their life, your entire professional career has

45:56

been to help your country. And this

45:58

is the thanks you get in the

46:00

long run. It's outrageous. It's just unfricking

46:02

outrageous. Regardless of who you voted

46:04

for in the recent presidential election,

46:06

we've got the Trump administration in

46:08

and we're seeing changes being made.

46:10

I don't agree with everything that

46:12

he does, but the man doesn't

46:14

call me. None of the presidents

46:16

have ever called me and asked me on

46:19

my opinion any decision they made.

46:21

They figured I'd probably count the 10. You've

46:23

got to put a little humor in this

46:25

because it's just so devastating. You've got 16

46:27

years in the Bureau, four years in the

46:29

military, they not give you the option to

46:31

retire with the pension. But they didn't give

46:33

me the option to anything. I mean, I

46:35

had people that were willing to try to

46:37

protect me without hurting themselves. And that's the

46:39

difference, right? One thing to protect somebody without

46:41

putting yourself at risk is another thing to

46:44

stand in the breach. And take it for the rest

46:46

of the teammate. You know, like a lot of

46:48

the other whistleblower, when you're dismissed, I

46:50

was notified in February of 2024 of

46:52

my pending dismissal. Human Resources

46:54

Division chose to put me on paid

46:56

administrative leave. Even though I had to,

46:58

they took my gun, took my badge,

47:00

took all my government property, I still

47:02

received a paycheck until in August I

47:05

received the final dismissal letter via email

47:07

or via FedEx and then my pay

47:09

and all the benefits and everything stopped.

47:11

There was no other than appeals in

47:13

all my, you know. court fight. There

47:15

was no let's find a softer

47:18

place. you know let's treat this guy differently

47:20

but I don't know my I try to

47:22

stick to the fact but I will say

47:24

a personal opinion based on the fact I

47:26

stood up pretty hard against the bureau I

47:29

didn't shake my fist I just said in

47:31

my appeal letters in my emails to the

47:33

director I said hey what's wrong was wrong

47:35

and I am who I will not bend

47:37

for it I will stand here to the

47:40

bitter end don't make me do it and

47:42

I had the support of my peers Well,

47:44

when I was persona non grata to the

47:46

Salt Lake City Division and I wasn't allowed

47:48

in a Salt Lake City office, the

47:51

agents of Salt Lake Division elected me

47:53

as their FBI agents association rep for the

47:55

division. I mean, if that's not a middle

47:57

finger to exactly in management, I don't know.

48:00

what is. But I also think that put

48:02

the bureau in a position of they couldn't

48:04

find a way to let me off because

48:06

they needed to make it loud and clear

48:09

that if you really stand up to the

48:11

machine this is what's going to. And I

48:13

think the attitude was firing let him sue

48:15

his way back in because that takes years

48:18

hundreds of thousands of dollars to try to

48:20

sue your way back in if you want

48:22

to get back in at all. So it's

48:24

been a road my friend it's been a

48:27

road. professionally, personally, obviously my wife and my

48:29

kids have been through this. My dad passed

48:31

away 16 days after I received that notification

48:33

of dismissal. He'd been pretty ill for a

48:36

number of years. It's been a lot. It's

48:38

been a heavy burden, but I don't quit

48:40

on anything. Yep. Good for you. You're a

48:42

brother. You're still a brother within the law

48:45

enforcement culture. You know, I still call you

48:47

brother. A couple things I want to point

48:49

out here before we finish up is And

48:51

this is the sad part. What happened to

48:54

those 31 guys on the Patriot Front that

48:56

were arrested that day? Well, their leader, Thomas

48:58

Rousseau, and one other guy, Richard Jessup, charges

49:01

were dismissed by a judge because it was

49:03

so screwed up. Seven were convicted of conspiracy

49:05

to riot. That sounds serious. They're sentenced a

49:07

few days in jail, a year or two

49:10

probation, a thousand dollar fine, when they're not

49:12

allowed to go back around that park. That's

49:14

very severe. Twenty-twook plea deals. Twenty took plea

49:16

deals, to participating. and they paid a fine,

49:19

or including their videographer, have bench warrants out

49:21

for them because they're on the run. And

49:23

then the, uh, there was actually one person

49:25

on the phone, they found some child porn,

49:28

and he was convicted and sent to prison.

49:30

So this is it. I mean, that's it

49:32

for everything that the Bureau was trying to

49:34

pursue, and that was the result of the

49:37

criminal charges, because it was not there to

49:39

start with. Those two cases that were dismissed,

49:41

you know, State versus Rousseau and State versus

49:43

Jessup, not only were those cases dismissed in

49:46

both cases, they found that the prosecutor's office

49:48

had violated the Brady instruction about disclosing exculpatory

49:50

evidence to the defense and refusal to provide

49:52

evidence that should be discoverable to the defense.

49:55

and one of those pieces of evidence was

49:57

the defendant's phones for an FBI custody and

49:59

the federal search warrant that my agents wouldn't

50:02

swear out. There is an affidavit in state

50:04

court from the state prosecutor given to the

50:06

judge where that brought the city attorney a

50:08

test that he had numerous conversations with the

50:11

FBI and U.S. Attorney's office and that the

50:13

assistant U.S. attorney flatly refused his state court

50:15

order. Under no circumstances short of a federal

50:17

court order will I give you this search

50:20

warrant? or the affidavit, yet the federal case

50:22

was going nowhere. There was nothing. There were

50:24

no subsequent search warrants. There was no federal

50:26

prosecution. There was simply hiding a bad warrant.

50:29

And how far were they willing to go?

50:31

They're willing to take the misdemeanor cases against

50:33

this in the city. And it's just, there's

50:35

the term to cover up is worse than

50:38

the crime. It is in this case, it

50:40

is obviously awful that they forced through a

50:42

bad warrant, but then what they've gone through

50:44

in punishing me, punishing my agents to cover

50:47

it up, and then refusing to cooperate with

50:49

a district court in Idaho to produce evidence

50:51

under court order is, I mean, for those

50:54

of us that have worked in the criminal

50:56

justice system, that is mind-blowing stuff. Mind-blowing cuts

50:58

to the very core of the concept of

51:00

our judicial. and not to mention the unsung

51:03

heroes, that's your family, how that's negatively impacted

51:05

them, your livelihood, your benefits, your retirement. We're

51:07

not getting younger, we're getting older. Thankfully, you

51:09

know, you had a business that you were

51:12

able to go into. It might have been

51:14

your plans, but I got one more question

51:16

for you just before we finish up. We

51:18

talked about this at the beginning. Given the

51:21

opportunity, could you return to the FBI? The

51:23

short answer is yes, but there's a really

51:25

big but, but, but, but, but, B- but,

51:27

B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-A-B-B-B-B-B-B-A-A-B-A-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B- and I care deeply about my friends

51:30

that are still in the FBI and I

51:32

think that the FBI leadership culture is disgraced

51:34

to them and disgraced to the American people.

51:36

Under the right set of circumstances with the

51:39

right request to come in and do something

51:41

about that and some amount of accommodation for

51:43

me and my family and what we've been

51:45

through, I wouldn't necessarily say no. Obviously it

51:48

sucks to have lost the lion's share of

51:50

my family's income, it sucks to have lost

51:52

the ability to retire with a pension. Fortunately

51:55

I had VA health insurance that I could

51:57

fall back on too, so we didn't lose

51:59

at all, but my wife and kids had

52:01

to go get private insurance. You learn some

52:04

of the things that are important to you

52:06

in life. My friends that quietly stood there

52:08

voted for me to be their age association

52:10

rep or just would answer the phone anytime

52:13

I called them because I needed a friend

52:15

to listen to me. They still deserve my

52:17

support even if there are parts of me

52:19

that would just as soon flush the bureau,

52:22

the bureaucracy down the toilet. I still believe

52:24

in the mission of the FBI. and the

52:26

DEA, and if there was ways that I

52:28

constructively work to support that in a positive

52:31

direction and not harm my family in the

52:33

process, yeah, I'd go back to the Bureau.

52:35

But whether or not a cash Patel or

52:37

a Pam Bondi wants me to be a

52:40

part of that, because there's so many other

52:42

people that are out there, I have no

52:44

idea. We'll find out over time, Mervyn, I

52:46

mean. You know, equal employment opportunity commission. And

52:49

all are on the cusp of me potentially

52:51

taking them into federal court, but let's be

52:53

honest, that's going to cost me hundreds of

52:56

thousands of dollars to fight that fight. And

52:58

you never know definitively that you're going to

53:00

win. I mean, I would probably win, but

53:02

I would rather have a political end to

53:05

that. as opposed to spending years in court

53:07

and wasting taxpayer money and my own money

53:09

to get to that end. But I'm still

53:11

unwilling to step out of the breach and

53:14

I'm still standing here with this bat. Good

53:16

math. Brother, I can't thank you enough for

53:18

coming on and sharing your story. I know

53:20

you've done it on a few other podcasts.

53:23

I know you've done it on a few

53:25

other podcasts. Being so transparent on a few

53:27

other podcasts. I know you've done it on

53:29

a few other podcasts. and that violates what

53:32

we represent. whether it's DOJ, FBI, whoever else

53:34

had any say so in this, the people

53:36

that don't have the stones to stand up

53:38

and do the right thing, absolutely no respect.

53:41

You don't represent us, you shouldn't be in

53:43

our law enforcement culture. You're not one of

53:45

the heroes that we talk about. In my

53:47

book, Zach, you're a hero because you stood

53:50

up for what you believed in, brother. So

53:52

I hate to leave it on such a

53:54

down note, but I'm proud of you for

53:57

what you did and doing the right thing.

53:59

Let's bring this back up. All right, so

54:01

we're going to rewind the clock from before

54:03

the train coming off the tracks. I'll share

54:06

a funny story with you that my DEA

54:08

brother and I joke about most every time

54:10

we get together as a group. So I

54:12

was a SWAT agent. I had generally more

54:15

training than most of my task force officers,

54:17

but we all did great work and we

54:19

would go out and we did warrants a

54:21

lot. We did far more warrants my DEA

54:24

group than I did with SWAT team. Well,

54:26

we went out on a drug warrant, a

54:28

drug warrant, a drug war warrant, six a

54:30

drug warrant, six a six a six a

54:33

six a six a, six a one morning,

54:35

six a pretty aggressive tactics, six, six, six,

54:37

six, six, six, six, six, six, one morning,

54:39

one morning, a pretty aggressive tactics tactics back

54:42

then. and it was a typical little drug

54:44

house where you can picture this murf. It's

54:46

just a couple of wooden steps up to

54:49

a very small shaky wood landing with a

54:51

door. This probably been breached by law enforcement

54:53

multiple times over the last decade. Well, I

54:55

was number one in the stack. I offset

54:58

off the door off the steps and I'm

55:00

holding the angle on the opening of the

55:02

door and my good friend Tom is number

55:04

two with the brand. And we get the

55:07

knocking announced, nobody comes to the door, and

55:09

the order from the team leader, whoever it

55:11

was at that point, comes out, breach, and

55:13

he starts swinging that big round. Well, you

55:16

probably recall that after about the third swing,

55:18

if that door is not open, each subsequent

55:20

thing is getting weaker and weaker and weaker.

55:22

Yeah. Well, Tom swings once, no opens. Tom

55:25

swings twice, no open. And at this point,

55:27

the bowl's coming out. And Tom's just swinging

55:29

like a madman, trying to get that door

55:31

open. Well, I third swing, four swing, and

55:34

then I start yelling at Tom, switch out.

55:36

Tom, switch out. And he won't, he's just

55:38

seeing red, the bowl's seeing red. He won't

55:40

switch out. He's just hammering on that door

55:43

for everything he's worth. And finally, I yelled,

55:45

I yelled pick up. to me with his

55:47

M4, picked up my cover, I swung my

55:50

weapon, I killed up the stairs, and his

55:52

Tom was coming back with his swing, I

55:54

grabbed the ram from him, instinctively just let

55:56

go of it, I stepped in, took the

55:59

slack out of the door and crushed the

56:01

door and opened wide up. And as you

56:03

can imagine... Tom is one of the greatest

56:05

human beings I've ever known and only a

56:08

really good human being could handle that and

56:10

still joke about it today. So to leave

56:12

your audience on a more fun note, nobody

56:14

got hurt except for the door. In Tom's

56:17

ego, we got the door open, you know,

56:19

we searched the place, we got our drugs,

56:21

somebody probably went to jail and then probably

56:23

on to prison, but the bowl came out

56:26

of my good friend and he was unwilling

56:28

to give up his war against the door

56:30

and unfortunately, FB1 had to come in and

56:32

take it and take it away from it.

56:35

Was it a DEA or it? I was

56:37

in the DEA or state police. It was

56:39

probably for that one in that town where

56:41

things were going pretty fast. It was probably

56:44

a state warrant coming off of one of

56:46

the state police narcotics teams or narcotics groups.

56:48

That's fantastic. So, which is funny because I

56:51

had never saw another instance where Tom split

56:53

and opened a door with that big can

56:55

opener. But in that instance, he was back

56:57

in the gym, pumping the iron. They were

57:00

going to happen again. Maybe. All right, Zach.

57:02

Brother, thank you so much for coming on

57:04

the show, for all our listers. You know,

57:06

it's like I always tell you, don't accept

57:09

what we tell you as a truth. No

57:11

matter what it is, always do your own

57:13

research, and you come to your own decision

57:15

what's right and wrong, especially don't let the

57:18

media tell you what to think. Just tell

57:20

me the news, I'm smart enough, I can

57:22

figure out what I believe is right and

57:24

wrong, and I'm asking you to do the

57:27

same thing here. I'm telling you, this man

57:29

and his family have suffered for doing the

57:31

right thing, and unfortunately that happens way, way

57:33

too often. The weaponization of politics seems that's

57:36

one of the latest trend phrases that's out

57:38

there, but let's hope that kind of bullshit

57:40

stops so that you can have dedicated personnel,

57:43

next week. I'm not

57:45

going to tell you

57:47

who it is right

57:49

now. tell you who because

57:52

I don't know. now. I

57:54

might, but I'm not

57:56

going to tell you.

57:58

I might, but I'm know what

58:01

we say here. you.

58:03

Thank you. you know you

58:05

for coming back every

58:07

week for play the biggest,

58:10

week to play the biggest, saddest, game

58:12

of all. And that's

58:14

all, of that's I'll see

58:16

you next week. Thanks,

58:19

see y'all next week. Thanks, Zach. you