0:04

yes

0:09

the geek's guide to the

0:11

galaxy and

0:14

here is your host barclay

0:18

hello

0:19

and welcome to episode 521

0:22

of geek's guide to the galaxy i'm

0:24

taping for currently author of the

0:26

book, save pleased and other stories which

0:29

is one

0:33

the book back at episode 500, so

0:35

definitely check that out if you missed it, and

0:38

i want to give a thank lie or say guess

0:40

who just gave the book of five-star he is sometimes

0:45

a great read i bought this book

0:48

as soon as i found out about it and was

0:50

all the stories in the book fun to

0:52

read but also thoughtful and beautifully written

0:54

frankly i'd about this book sight unseen

0:56

just based on keeps going to the galaxy but

0:59

since i knew some of the stories especially

1:01

the wonderful saved me please i knew

1:03

i won't be disappointed david

1:06

winning for your second the

1:08

weekends against a we are so go for that great

1:10

review the answer guess

1:12

it is ben rigs he's the cohost

1:15

of the tabletop gaming podcast plot points

1:17

and his work is also appeared on t can century

1:20

in the for gaming magazine the unspeakable

1:22

oath there's an npr to the best

1:24

of our knowledge into this interview

1:26

will be discussing his new book swing the dragon

1:29

a secret history of dungeons and dragons

1:31

about the downfall of csr one

1:34

of the most powerful game companies of the eighties

1:36

and nineties and now his interview

1:38

with then works

1:41

it's a real then rigs walk into the show

1:44

hello david bar curtly

1:46

you have you have no idea how delighted

1:49

i am

1:50

at last to be antiques guide to

1:52

the galaxy

1:53

yeah no so that's a great hero finn and i

1:55

were talking or that before we start recording so

1:57

it's nicer nice that someone is

1:59

a fan of the show i'm talking to me

2:02

i have been listening since john joseph adams

2:05

co hosted arm and it really got me

2:07

to some dark times so that that thank

2:09

you for what you do it it's it's been a delight

2:11

to make him i cannot tell you how happy i'm

2:13

to be here it's literally a bucket

2:15

list item they get across us today

2:18

yeah none so happy to hear that it's so great to talk

2:20

to you and yeah we're gonna have a great time today

2:22

saki better new book swaying

2:25

the dragon a secret history of dungeons

2:27

and dragons

2:28

the customer had this book combat wow

2:31

, i used to rate for deacon sundry

2:34

and as you may have noticed a

2:36

tabletop roleplaying games have

2:39

exploded in popularity in the past ten

2:41

or fifteen years and

2:43

my editor cheek and sundry when they said

2:45

to me

2:46

do you live in wisconsin could would you be so

2:48

kind as to write an article just explaining

2:51

that dungeons and dragons wasn't always

2:53

mean seattle by wizards of the coast and used

2:56

to be made in wisconsin suffice tsr

2:58

and like sure i'm in wisconsin

3:00

i know some of these guys mostly

3:02

guys are a lot of them remain here

3:05

after the indeed moved to seattle

3:07

so seem at conventions and hear the stories

3:09

and soy and i kinda had kinda social network

3:12

that allowed me to access their knowledge

3:14

pretty easily go

3:16

nicer talking to them and the

3:19

creatives creatives to ah

3:21

allow me to reach out to people that worked

3:23

in the business side for tsr and and published

3:25

dungeons dragons and when i start to get from

3:28

the business marketing sales side

3:30

of the company is a story i'd never

3:32

heard before i

3:34

was considered i knew exactly

3:37

how and why

3:40

dungeons and dragons used to be made in wisconsin

3:42

but the have died here and now

3:44

published in seattle but the story i got from those

3:46

guys was guys was the story i was expecting

3:48

it i thought the story was gonna be well

3:51

with the coast made magic gathering magic

3:53

the gathering is crack in a pack and you

3:55

know it it just sucked all the oxygen out of the

3:57

room and killed csr and then they

3:59

buy the us or that was the story i was expecting

4:02

it was not at all the

4:04

story i was told the story i was told was

4:06

one as a list management and

4:08

the steaks and errors and

4:10

a death by a thousand cuts and

4:12

and a failure to expand in a steal

4:15

your to find new people who play the in the and

4:18

as , getting all this data my one

4:21

article for deacon sundry becomes

4:23

three and even then i

4:26

geek sundry has an editorial

4:28

standards that are like are look in a week or light

4:30

for fun were like felicia day

4:32

so you know so don't want anything

4:35

too much of a bummer and you can sundries and

4:37

at one of the this is a feedback

4:39

i got back was the story

4:41

of the death of his company is a bit of a bummer

4:43

we needed some this trim the stream this and

4:45

and i go get signed with again these are things

4:48

that no one has heard before and

4:51

, inspired me to kinda keep going after those

4:53

articles came out i

4:55

was like you know oh alright

4:57

ten thousand words and put it on kickstarter and ten

4:59

thousand words became twenty would fucking safety

5:02

which became one hundred which hundred which sold the st

5:04

martin's press ah and

5:07

it really is a shocking

5:09

tale of have a good

5:12

business that that is mismanaged into

5:14

the ground are and then saved

5:16

actually by a company perceived

5:18

as there is there dearest enemy

5:21

yeah and i mean this is actually this is

5:24

if i'm counting riot this is the a sport

5:26

that i've read and covered on this podcast

5:28

about the history of dungeons dragons and

5:31

it was really striking me reading your book that

5:33

you've been having read so many other books about

5:35

the history of dungeons dragons still

5:38

mostly this this book is almost entirely new

5:41

to me all the stuff in it so

5:43

on you must us are

5:45

reading this like you are just

5:47

uncovering like the

5:49

secrets of the universe or like well it's

5:51

certainly felt like certainly ticket to a

5:53

journey it had felt like had detective story

5:55

as ah as i

5:58

was doing my research in interviews i'm

6:00

in in what happened was just

6:04

hi again i wouldn't have

6:06

to the business people that so first of all

6:08

i'm talking about as you point out my

6:11

book the told the whole story

6:13

to us are really focuses on ninety five

6:16

to ninety ninety seven and john

6:18

peterson who at you've had on at least twice i think

6:20

ah yes he is the

6:23

the you sit at ease of nineteen seventy

6:25

four to nineteen eighty five on

6:27

and his foot game wizards came

6:29

out or this past fall i think you had a month for

6:31

that didn't get on and

6:34

my book picks up very neatly wears

6:36

his leaves off so if you read game

6:38

wizards and mind you get this very deep

6:41

comprehensive look under his if it history of csr

6:43

odd but also in our if you don't

6:46

know any what the history of tsr do give you

6:48

a good summary of that early era to

6:50

see you know see can pick up my book you know

6:52

a sequel you don't you to read another book for free

6:54

read mine but if you to redeem wizards yeah really

6:56

close that experience anyway ah

6:59

yes the research on this was like was detective

7:01

story i would

7:03

talk to people they would lead me to other people

7:06

ah p n the number

7:08

of these people as far as i know had never

7:11

been spoken to before by a journalist

7:13

about their time to tsr i

7:16

was one guy but said bob abramowitz bob

7:18

abramowitz negotiate the sale of t assertive

7:20

with the coast at essentially and

7:22

i i found him i call

7:25

them during dinner one day and he stopped eating

7:27

dinner to talk to me for twenty minutes about the ceaseless

7:29

csr it wasn't as though he'd been

7:31

waiting decades for so many just call it

7:33

during dinner his ah this is finally

7:35

happening okay

7:37

let me tell you everything you need to know sir

7:39

your had like you say napoca as

7:41

i wrote it interviewed i began to receive secrets

7:43

scans of documents from various sources

7:45

one of whom insisted on remaining confidential

7:48

that person so confidential said yes they

7:50

are they are and source

7:52

it's actually a little bit of a

7:55

little bit controversial the moment because so

7:59

i

7:59

i got a lot of steps

8:02

people sent me a lot of stuff ah

8:04

from t a surge primary source documents

8:07

crazy lists of salaries

8:10

for example the in

8:12

sales numbers are probably the most interesting

8:14

thing to people i'm

8:17

but the volume of primary source

8:19

material i got from sources was pretty

8:21

crazy

8:23

in a few of them did asked to remain confidential

8:25

or anonymous and i am i'm posting

8:28

on twitter and facebook right now actually

8:32

the a d sales numbers from the

8:34

seventies eighties and nineties very briefly in the seventies

8:37

most the eighties nineties and

8:39

, the number one question people are having is what's

8:41

your source what's your source what's your sign up mccool

8:43

my sources anonymous i'm if

8:45

you're like doubtful of of the

8:47

truth is that probably be the

8:50

best evidence i haven't says actual

8:52

data ah from

8:54

ah source that wants to remain confidential is

8:56

confidential is don't have everything like people are like towards

8:58

you have novel numbers and i'm with almost

9:00

no novel numbers and almost no dmt

9:02

novel sales to

9:05

i , almost no d the adventure

9:07

sales with my sources just didn't given to me

9:10

me but because

9:12

over the course of years i just

9:14

got known as the guides us to talk

9:16

to about tsr in the indian

9:18

in the failure of the company in the in people

9:21

started sending me more stuff so i actually have primary

9:24

sources are primary source documents

9:26

from more than one source ah

9:29

so i can cross confirmed the data and

9:31

my my source that wants to remain confidential

9:33

i've managed to cross check things in the data as

9:35

good either so peter acheson

9:37

was the ceo of was to the coast with that

9:39

with our when was the coast purchase

9:41

tsr while he was

9:43

since was city for wisconsin negotiating

9:45

the sale of tsr he

9:49

had a proponent or with him said tsr

9:51

on the side was filled with his notes

9:54

documents ah letters

9:56

from people asking for jobs sales numbers

9:58

a it had a breakdown the problems

10:01

that he saw at he has or will he was there

10:03

and at some point he left didn't like geneva

10:06

and eighty and store employee

10:09

picked it up herbert for twenty five

10:11

years and an incentive to me and

10:13

that that would that document read their

10:16

allows me to confirm things from my anonymous

10:18

confidential source is emily was

10:20

is this is the source is giving you the same numbers

10:22

appear actors and have clearly the sources

10:24

good but

10:27

yeah there's a lot of ah i've been told

10:29

by multiple people that i mean to get sued for this book

10:31

i've been told i'll be sued into the ground and

10:34

i should tremble with fear for having

10:36

published it ah , the primary

10:38

reason for that i think is because one

10:41

of the main percentages i

10:43

follow this is lorraine williams who is the ceo

10:45

of tsr from eighty five until

10:47

ninety seven and he

10:50

will it was and i believe is very

10:53

of the teachers and she did not want to talk

10:55

to me for this book she told me she had nothing to say to

10:57

me on which is unfortunate

10:59

because i i think that guy got him that way to be fair

11:01

be her and this on then

11:04

i'd say that up until now people have been kind

11:06

of cruel to her so

11:09

it's too bad she didn't talk to me but

11:12

i saw in the fear of herb seems

11:14

to extend beyond

11:16

, tsr and beyond of the decades

11:19

to to right now where people are still

11:21

so afraid of her that they they want to remain

11:23

confidential of

11:26

it was that a good summary of the heart

11:28

of of this vessel react redux that's a lot

11:30

easier than i than i realized is going to

11:32

be yeah on but i definitely think

11:34

that i had a much more positive

11:37

view is lorraine from reading

11:39

your book then

11:41

you know i i i i i saw

11:43

this book is you know among the most

11:46

respectful treatments she's likely to

11:48

get i mean you say she sort of been it

11:50

as a villain in the

11:52

the

11:54

in in a dungeons and dragons community

11:56

and and it seems like she had a lot of images early mid

11:58

autumn mistakes as your book makes clear that a lot

12:00

of personality flaws and stuff but are you

12:03

you give her credit for a lot of things that i'm

12:05

the you know i think a lot of other people maybe

12:07

not

12:09

they hadn't done yet but by no means

12:11

as she perfect but

12:14

you know if you saved the company in nineteen

12:16

eighty five and in the again this is something

12:19

that ah john tedious and really

12:21

brought to light with his research and especially

12:23

in game wizards on the

12:25

company was was by no means

12:28

in good health when gary gygax

12:30

kind of swung back into the picture and ninety

12:32

five gary gygax be the coach creator of

12:34

dungeons and dragons and cofounder

12:36

of tsr with a company he essentially i

12:39

found the published dungeons dragons

12:43

the have been out of the picture for a few years in

12:45

los angeles which is had shown sordid tale

12:47

our butts , see

12:50

etc i don't want to dwell on that too much as

12:52

i'd love i love this line where

12:55

cause gary gygax was a jehovah's witness

12:57

witness on and he's always out in hollywood

13:00

within the sort of rock star via star

13:03

a playboy model now this hot tubs and i'll

13:05

just kind of stuff and someone who is around

13:07

at the time says ah i see it

13:09

so something like dumb i think to have a must

13:11

have been looking into completely different into yeah that

13:15

was said by by sleep delete a

13:17

g i joe and transformers writer he

13:20

he claims to be the only person ever hired by

13:22

george lucas and steven spielberg

13:24

to write up because he wrote for

13:27

george lucas and detroit androids

13:29

you watch cartoons and he wrote american

13:31

tail to five photos west for steven

13:33

spielberg but also

13:36

by coincidence the brother of seal the

13:38

rain williams he he was happy to talk to

13:40

me for the spot and in very kind

13:42

with his time and commentary he is a character

13:45

i really enjoyed talking to him ah

13:47

but yeah he said that jehovah was looking

13:49

in a whole different direction when gygax

13:52

was in los angeles on but

13:55

in a lot of the the prior history is before peterson

13:57

came along there was this idea

13:59

that like gygax had sought swope

14:01

switchbacks in he was back in late two neither

14:03

he was writing again and everything

14:05

is going to be fine and i'm lorraine williams

14:08

comes in and in steals the company

14:10

away from gary gygax

14:12

but that that that projected future

14:14

of salvation by gygax is

14:16

by no means assured ah

14:19

the employees it tsr were and

14:21

p deferments at the time or

14:23

the company owed company bunch of money

14:26

and that is when lorraine williams took over

14:29

on and people

14:32

who work there as i had people tell

14:34

me that if you worked under gygax and you worked

14:36

under williams for all the respect people

14:38

had for gygax nobody preferred

14:41

working under him they preferred working

14:43

under lorraine williams at once he

14:45

took over see got people paid

14:47

off ah the all the money that was owed

14:49

to them was paid back with interest within

14:52

within a year of for taking over the company

14:54

on and while

14:57

a lot of the decisions that see made

15:00

ah contributed to the long term

15:02

decline of the brand are or

15:04

her time insurgency us or was clearly dmz

15:06

silver age or it's it's

15:09

amazing to me that see that ab

15:12

will the coast for example the

15:14

default setting a d in the right now is forgotten

15:16

realms it's came out when the rainbow into ceo

15:19

ah this summer they're releasing

15:21

they're releasing jammer supplement which is

15:23

indy in stay

15:25

and that debuted

15:28

under lorraine williams are you

15:30

, saw just just

15:32

product after amazing product come out of

15:35

tsr gorgeous boxsets

15:37

ah these these books of leather it

15:39

covers and golden boss and

15:42

of course one of the problems there is they were so

15:45

good at keeping track of their profit losses

15:47

so lot of these things either made no money or actually

15:50

lost money for dragon dark

15:52

sun adventurous for example the

15:54

first year i every dachshund

15:56

adventure the came out last i'm like a bucks for

15:59

product so they go through all this

16:01

trouble though to make dark sun make adventurous for

16:03

it they ended up losing hundreds and thousands of dollars

16:06

all right and so my era of

16:08

dungeons and dragons was really does this

16:10

era the last williams second edition

16:12

era and , can remember

16:15

the first time i saw to instance in dragons

16:17

the first time i saw the dungeons dragons second edition

16:19

fucking i said summer camp in there there were these

16:21

older kids playing it and i

16:23

just saw that the player's handbook with

16:26

the guy and a horse in the sword riding

16:28

toward the the viewer that and he

16:30

suggests easily and painting

16:32

ah as the site that is the coolest

16:34

thing i've ever seen seen

16:37

in all those books looked so amazing a new

16:39

my my cousin who's and on maybe ten years

16:41

older than i and i am he had on

16:43

of the first edition book so i'd see those my

16:45

went over to their house in boston and

16:48

they looks by comparison very young said amateurish

16:50

you know in the way out and then and

16:52

, and stuff and so i never would

16:54

have imagined that

16:57

that as you as you say in the book that the second

16:59

edition

17:00

i'm a commercial standpoint was kind of a

17:03

kind of a buster to some yeah

17:05

i'm a one of the really interesting things

17:08

when you look at the sales numbers is odd

17:11

you could argue that the basic d

17:13

and d so again for if for if if you don't

17:15

know i in the late seventies early

17:17

eighties what we call dungeons

17:19

and dragons was kind of split into you

17:21

had ah basic

17:24

dungeons and dragons which was kind of considered

17:26

as a more simple beginners game every

17:29

few years you'd have a box set some out with this

17:31

for the simpler game on and then

17:33

you had advanced dungeons and dragons

17:35

which was gary gygax attend a magnum

17:37

opus it was an attempt by him to have

17:39

rules for every citizen on

17:42

that there that there rules in in first edition

17:44

advanced dungeons and dragons for how

17:47

chance to hit are affected by what

17:49

and inferior sealed in ah

17:51

and the size of the seal the get it it really

17:54

is him trying to get the rules

17:56

around the entire world and

17:59

and so the world into his game

18:01

and in in that way it is ah

18:03

a magnificent work but

18:05

you had the simpler game called in a basic

18:07

dungeons dragons came in boxes on

18:11

and the basically

18:14

a d outsold first edition and outsold

18:16

second edition second edition did not sell as

18:18

well as first ah which

18:20

again being like you being a child

18:22

of the nineties who grew up looking at those magnificent

18:25

jeff easily paintings on the front

18:27

of the player's handbook in the dungeon master's

18:30

guide on i of course

18:32

thought that this was the apex of

18:34

of the indeed this is this is it is achieved

18:36

it's final form on if

18:39

you look at sales numbers are it signified

18:42

a decline i and that is the problem

18:44

that really bedeviled ah

18:46

csr and d and d during

18:49

the lorraine williams era was declining sales

18:51

declining sales declining sales second edition

18:53

didn't do well as well as first edition i

18:56

when they started releasing a

18:59

lizard releasing a ton of settings and

19:01

they would revise the settings every

19:03

few years revised settings never

19:05

sold as well as their prior additions i

19:08

if you look at sorts of products ah

19:10

it's always like a big never in the first

19:12

year and that the collapse the products

19:15

had almost no legs and they certainly never

19:17

sold more the second years if you

19:19

looked at ah sales charts

19:22

from the early nineteen eighties there

19:24

was exponential growth in

19:26

soul mates and eighty four when there was also collects

19:28

on i

19:31

actually sense dnb sales numbers

19:33

to an economist to try and figure out why

19:35

there's this collapse and nineteen eighty four ah

19:38

, the economist tells me while i was

19:40

at the numbers burn off the top my head on

19:43

you know a recession ended in nineteen

19:45

eighty four and i was like yeah why would that

19:47

him and bad for d and the salesman

19:50

and a kind of says to me well

19:53

in a d and d is here and entertainment

19:55

here and is something that you can

19:57

spend on even in bad economic

19:59

time ah but when

20:02

economic times are good maybe people are a

20:04

working be spending that money going on

20:06

vacations or something they have more disposable income

20:08

the don't feel like they have to spend it and under the dragons

20:10

oh that's interesting theory on

20:13

i mean that that could be but you also just

20:15

bring up the as you in as book of market saturation

20:18

that you know

20:19

it there's a certain number

20:21

of people who wanted who wanted to play

20:23

don't address dungeons and dragons and once they

20:25

had some version of the game they

20:27

could play it and then to they really

20:29

need that sense

20:31

he's attacking the canal

20:33

you know a one of the innovations

20:35

and problems of role playing games

20:38

is they they don't expire

20:40

they don't go bad they don't start to rots

20:42

you don't consume them on

20:45

you know that there are people who could who are probably

20:47

still happily playing first edition dungeons

20:49

and dragons have been for decades

20:52

so if you're in an environment where

20:54

you don't have to search

20:56

make a purchase again from tsr

20:58

how does tsr survivor any

21:00

role playing game company for that matter are

21:03

, of the interesting things i find is

21:06

is successful role playing game companies

21:08

that last a long time send to sell

21:10

more than role playing games like tsr

21:13

ah at one point they claim to be the largest

21:15

publisher of fantasy fiction in north

21:17

america are they claimed that there

21:19

were millions of forgotten realms and

21:21

dragoman novels and prince there

21:24

was a point in the nineties where

21:26

are the see us or fiction line

21:28

was grossing about as much as

21:30

the tsr all that he has a role

21:32

playing game stuff put together on

21:35

end of fiction line was essentially

21:37

like hoping to keep the company afloat fiction

21:40

was perceived as so successful within

21:42

the company that ,

21:44

were rumors one day everyone

21:47

to come into work and they would no

21:49

longer be making your game for dungeons and dragons

21:51

they would only be making novels set

21:53

in the world's of dungeons and dragons dungeons

21:56

i all the games of designers

21:58

nabih writers of the game

22:00

editors would now be section editors

22:02

and that would bts are going forward

22:05

the

22:08

i rambled off the reservation for what

22:10

let me ask is this is the thing i'm i'm still little

22:12

confused about is that i can understand

22:14

why the company was sort of

22:17

the under under gary gygax in these

22:19

guys were all hardcore hardcore gamers

22:21

and not necessarily business people how

22:23

they would now be paying that

22:26

much attention to the bottom line but

22:28

lorraine williams as far as i can solve was

22:30

basically a business person she wasn't a gamer

22:32

see sort of seems to have disdains gamers

22:34

and the game the hobby game industry

22:37

so i'm a little confused about why someone like that

22:40

would be making such basic business

22:42

errors as not realizing

22:44

that you're selling products for more than more

22:47

, that are their coffee more to produce

22:49

the you're selling and for like that to seems like really basic

22:51

stuff you basic stuff now rubbing against

22:53

ah the thing that if i found

22:56

myself in an elevator with lorraine williams

22:58

i would ask her first

23:02

because she presents herself

23:04

as a businesswoman arm , if

23:06

i recall sheet she got her bachelors

23:08

in like ah pre

23:10

pre communist russian history on

23:14

she'd worked at some non profits in

23:16

some hospitals ah you

23:19

know she'd never owned a business she'd never run

23:21

a business and see

23:28

really like yes men he

23:30

didn't like to hear the word know ah

23:34

and she would that would affect your employment

23:36

if you said you know know too many times as i

23:39

understand it

23:41

and a lot of the business people she brought

23:44

on were you

23:46

know like cardboard executive is

23:48

you're not people that

23:50

were from the world the creative

23:53

world

23:55

and part of me wants to know

23:58

as a cargo card

23:59

by cardboard executives you mean like they sold

24:02

cars cars ,

24:04

yeah that that for me from a formerly

24:06

cardboard manufacturing company another

24:08

working at tsr in only get

24:10

you did to get this bizarre clash

24:13

of cultures were in executive

24:15

might come down to the art department until some

24:17

genius artist this is an important painting

24:19

we want you to use all your colors you

24:21

know this crazy stuff like

24:23

that

24:26

right

24:28

how much

24:29

why is

24:30

incompetence how much was

24:32

culture how much

24:35

did the rain williams really know is

24:37

that because people were afraid to give her

24:39

bad news they wouldn't give her bad news

24:42

on , certainly are and a number

24:45

of bad decisions that i can trace right

24:47

back to her on i

24:50

would love to know if

24:53

bike

24:54

the extent of the debt to random house for

24:56

example is she was fully cognizant

24:58

of that at all times while

25:01

, what was what soccer that goes to see say in

25:03

a book or the nineteen seventy nine contracts

25:05

between csr and random house was my white

25:07

whale while reading this book so

25:10

i got that

25:11

the the us are

25:14

had a very unusual arrangement

25:17

with random ass there are distributed

25:19

to the book trade according

25:22

to the that contract which

25:24

was written and seventy nine and defect

25:26

nine nineteen eighty signed by gary gygax

25:29

he is ours would

25:31

not receive money from random house when their

25:33

products sold most of the time in a publisher's

25:36

or publish books listen to their

25:38

distributor when the distributor then sells

25:40

the book on to while the books be dot

25:43

barnes , what have you ah

25:45

then ah it's pay csr

25:48

was paid when their product

25:51

shifts to random house not

25:53

when their product sold therefore

25:56

for tsr the printing of product

25:59

we can into the printing of money now

26:01

there were good reasons for this initially the

26:04

initially the was dungeons and dragons

26:06

was a titanic it's and

26:08

teasers books were not cheap again

26:10

they're hardcover with a color

26:12

covers hand in

26:15

a printing those books pot costs money if

26:17

, found himself in a position where like

26:20

they needed a reprint the player's handbook and

26:22

they also had ah a

26:24

hot new adventure coming up they'd planned

26:26

to publish but they only had a certain amount

26:28

of money on hand they might need to choose between

26:31

reprinting a hot products and

26:33

continuing forward with their catalog on

26:37

this arrangement of random house allowed

26:39

them to do both they

26:41

got their money really quickly upfront

26:44

i and they could publish both adventure

26:46

and reprint the player's handbook and continue with their

26:49

momentum as

26:51

long as they only got about twenty

26:53

percent of their product return everything

26:55

was fine aren't the problem

26:57

was that sometime in the nineties

27:00

and seems like a random house just

27:02

tennis stop keeping track of how much

27:05

i see us our product was accumulating

27:07

in their warehouses and the

27:11

csr started started that

27:13

random house contract simply to meet

27:15

there are bottom line expectations

27:19

needs to , their bills there

27:21

we go yes us have a specific our product

27:24

that they knew when sell his out that random

27:26

house of atoms were exactly they were shipping

27:28

out products that are they did nothing

27:30

could sell just to generate that payment from

27:32

random house and you get this bubble

27:34

of death that grows and grows and grows he gets

27:36

to eleven million dollars and random

27:39

house or eventually sues

27:41

tsr over the matter over the as

27:43

i recall

27:44

yeah yeah an initiative i'm a don't of weeks when this

27:46

clearly about the different campaign setting because

27:48

they were employing something called the call the

27:50

spirit strategy which is basically

27:53

me you're fishing you're have different times has been

27:55

to cats dance lessons and more kinds of their

27:57

you put out there and more fish are going to cats

27:59

and

27:59

like okay we're going to put out all these different settings

28:02

and we're going to track to different audi and a new

28:04

different audience for each one so like we're

28:06

going to put out dark sun and it's going attract a whole

28:08

new group of people who think dark sun is cool

28:11

and we're going to put out points gap and will attract

28:13

a whole new group of people with in queens gave

28:15

the school exactly that that oh that's

28:17

right that was the theory yeah the theory was

28:20

that hey we're going to

28:22

that exactly like you said i'll use

28:24

raven laughed as i feel like it's it's a really different

28:26

an obvious examples a raven love to their

28:29

gothic horror setting in the

28:31

theory was that by creating by

28:33

creating for setting for the

28:35

advanced dungeons and dragons second edition game

28:37

we will acquire gothic horror gothic

28:40

horror sans who will then become

28:42

d and d sands and we will grow

28:44

the brand on , i want to say

28:47

are are raising lost souls fifty thousand copies

28:49

their first year it's first year out and

28:52

you look at those numbers know ago well okay

28:54

fifty thousand is a is a pretty big number you

28:58

know if you can get a

29:01

, thousand new people playing dungeons

29:03

and dragons by generating

29:06

a gothic horror setting the seems like a good plan

29:08

but it was not fifty

29:10

thousand new people buying that setting

29:12

it it turns out it was mostly

29:15

people that were already playing advanced

29:17

dungeons dragons second edition and

29:19

they were not in fact finding

29:23

new fans they were just taking

29:25

their existing fan base in sapping

29:27

it every setting would

29:29

be another shot and you

29:31

would suddenly have people go from buying

29:34

it two hundred thousand

29:36

copies of forgotten realms ah

29:39

two men once in a last forgotten realms

29:41

ah really so thirty thousand

29:44

copies it's first year and

29:47

every setting seem to take

29:49

their sales and cut them and cut them in touch them

29:51

in the next forty eight hours i'm actually in a photograph

29:53

up on twitter and facebook so and

29:55

if you're hearing this probably up there already showing

29:58

all of t a sars

29:59

settings

30:01

the their sales over time and

30:03

you will see that you go from grayhawk

30:05

forgotten realms dragon lance which had

30:07

really really good sales to

30:09

really anemic sales the last few

30:11

years of us or as existence yes

30:14

you you had debuts go from two hundred thousand

30:16

units sold to

30:18

thirty thousand and fifteen thousand units sold

30:20

the last couple years and

30:23

yet a sick when i was talking about this a thing

30:25

that i would hear from tsr alumni

30:28

was for you know it's users bottom

30:30

line was around thirty million dollars for

30:32

years and years and years and years and years and and the right

30:34

about that css gross sales were about thirty

30:36

million dollars for years news news news news

30:39

but , time what they're having to do is

30:41

produce more products to

30:43

earn that thirty million dollars a i want

30:46

to say in either

30:48

eighty nine there were like he was setting

30:50

releases are by ninety

30:52

five ninety six you're having dozens arm

30:55

and your you go from the again selling

30:57

like hundreds of thousands of copies of those

30:59

two releases to ten

31:02

to twenty thousand copies of those

31:04

releases in the nineties on

31:06

so you're having to spend more money

31:08

since it suits generating ah

31:11

the same bottom line and when

31:13

you're not keeping a close eye on your profits

31:15

and losses in some of those just break even

31:17

some of those actually lose your money on

31:20

it's wife gets yes are really suffered a set

31:22

of a thousand cuts and officially strategy

31:25

being a failure wasn't noticed until

31:27

years since the us or was dead and

31:29

lisa stevens who is now the publisher a puzzle

31:32

ah at which makes the path and a role playing

31:34

game it fell to her

31:37

to do the the section

31:39

on the body of tsr and

31:41

she starts pouring over their sales numbers

31:43

and that's when she figures out man the

31:46

more settings you have the less good

31:49

every setting does on and

31:51

i don't think it's coincidence that the the

31:53

woman who figured that out about csr

31:55

ah and was so deep into yes or numbers

31:58

goes under found her own publishing company the

32:00

seems to be incredibly successful

32:03

and yet if you if you look at the setting though

32:05

the pathfinder role playing game has one

32:07

sending it is called the larry and there's

32:10

a bunch of different kingdoms like there's a gothic

32:12

horror kingdom ah and

32:14

there's a like kingdom of atheists

32:16

are you know what is one planet and that

32:18

is it snowing this this

32:20

this me a lot cause like dark sun was setting

32:23

i was most into and i thought dark sun was so

32:25

cool so it's kind of disheartening to

32:27

see that it was actually part of the reason

32:29

to us or failed was was producing

32:31

such amazing the cool stuff like that

32:33

one i do want to point out that i'd the quality

32:36

on his are

32:39

not related to the sales numbers

32:41

it it's one of the reasons that it

32:43

really is a silver age of d and d

32:45

and in some ways you and i directly benefited

32:48

from the from the bad business practices a

32:50

t s r because a lot of those

32:52

boxsets should have been priced higher a

32:54

, they weren't for for either mistakes

32:57

are various and in a or sometimes

32:59

they just wanted to try and attract new people so they tried to lower

33:01

the price point point but you and

33:03

i probably had our adolescence is adolescence

33:07

really been released , operation

33:10

yeah yeah a but

33:12

again i want to point out when a t and some people

33:14

do see these lower sales numbers and they're like oh

33:16

that was the sucked oh that that must have been a failure

33:19

but like plane scape i think was their

33:21

greatest setting it a was

33:23

you know took place in a city at the center of

33:25

the universe there's all these factions

33:28

it was like their response to the to the rise

33:30

of the white wolf games which had these factions that

33:32

were fighting amongst each other and there's

33:34

a like you know the artist figure

33:36

looming over everything called the queen of pain

33:39

and super cool there is like to

33:41

artists for the entire line and

33:43

yet the the whole line never made any money

33:46

if even though it's in artistic high

33:48

point for the company and maybe even

33:50

for the brand of dungeons and dragons didn't

33:53

make any money sales weren't great

33:56

and it gets i do want to make

33:59

them point of said

33:59

the rating

34:01

sales from quality to the by no

34:03

means to they tracked an hour i think again i think

34:05

a lot of these settings there's a reason

34:07

that you still have ah old

34:09

hands like us demanding to see the

34:11

settings released him sedition on

34:14

, it's because they were so grace

34:17

and so fantastic am stuff when spell

34:19

jammer came out yeah i feel like there was a cry from

34:21

the internet of of of ecstasy

34:24

when the raven locked at the do singles came

34:26

out everyone was super excited of

34:28

so i do want to just take a book moments to point

34:30

out that jimmy's continue

34:32

absolutely will and and another thing that really blew

34:34

my mind as know cause i i was really into

34:36

the dragon lance and forgotten realms novels

34:39

growing up and just seeing

34:41

how how tight deadlines

34:43

one some of these things are you say oh

34:46

weiss and hickman were given three months

34:48

to write the first dragon lance novel or

34:50

it orbits or wrote his first forgotten

34:52

realms novel in two months and the first

34:55

hardcover debug and six weeks

34:57

and , is a knob i guess putin

34:59

word was given said weeks to develop the rules for

35:01

spell fire which was tsr as or

35:04

answer to answer magic the gathering

35:07

and it's just like this is an insane we short

35:09

amount of time to write a novel or

35:11

especially to develop a collectible card game

35:13

which you would think would need a lot of test since

35:16

or something good yeah

35:19

that that accurate

35:22

and with

35:24

it with spell for your for sure and i assume

35:26

a few of these other things on

35:29

the problem with something called factory

35:32

the

35:33

factoring is a financial

35:35

instrument where i you

35:38

try to collect pre sales in

35:41

january so you you tell

35:44

i distributors and retailers

35:46

hey this is what tsr is going to produce this

35:48

year in november we're gonna produce

35:50

and are a salvatore novel in

35:53

june we're gonna produce style fires

35:55

collectible card games gonna blow your mind on

35:58

and

35:59

you then

36:01

have these retailers and distributors

36:03

sign contracts green to buy these things

36:06

are they get a discounted price

36:08

for pre ordering in january ah

36:11

tsr would then take

36:13

those contracts and

36:15

sell them to a bank to

36:18

be bank of course we take another cut i

36:21

want to see all of this cost to

36:23

, some like eighteen percent and their

36:25

products and i'm not good at polling

36:27

numbers out but something

36:29

like eighteen percent is what it cost us

36:31

are the reason that

36:34

they would do this would do it gives

36:36

them a lump sum at the beginning of

36:38

the year for budgetary purposes so

36:40

you don't need to wait to get your money you get it

36:42

now the

36:44

a you lose eighteen percent be

36:47

ah you now have

36:50

contractually obligated yourself

36:52

to produce said product at

36:54

said time or else it

36:57

made tsr incredibly

36:59

inflexible i'm it couldn't

37:01

give you know bad bad bad salvatore

37:03

more time because if it did it would be in contractual

37:06

violations ah and

37:08

same with so fire like you couldn't take

37:10

more time to make products because if

37:12

you did you'd been contracts or violation and

37:16

this is gonna be a real problem because

37:18

it knew that to a certain no longer

37:21

ah react with any degree of alacrity

37:23

or fleet know to changes in the market

37:26

yes it is all these are these problems

37:29

with with he has already been many

37:31

we haven't even gone into so some reading

37:33

the book and i'm like you know just

37:35

gets worse and worse and worse you know

37:38

it's not like these cartoons

37:40

and movies or something or somebody tells went a little via

37:42

the beginning and then they have to tell a lie to cover

37:44

that up and all another lie to cover that up and by

37:46

the end it's like this huge thing but abedin

37:49

on the

37:51

pew peter atkinson comes in at the end

37:53

and it's almost like and storytelling terms it was almost

37:55

me like a day or sex makana it's like you

37:58

know like like tsr as like

38:00

everything's ruins and and this guy like swoops

38:02

in and save dungeons and

38:04

dragons and he's just like super near got all this

38:06

money and use this one seems seemingly just

38:08

wants the best for the game and for everybody involved

38:11

in everything and i'm psyched you know if

38:13

you are making the story up the would be like okay

38:15

this is to syria to

38:17

sort of thousand circle of and under

38:20

i mean if you're not wrong

38:22

and a lot of the creators ah

38:25

that i talk to the

38:27

prefer it it to to peter adkisson

38:29

and kind of hushed tones on

38:32

he he came in and

38:36

through a lot of the bs ah and

38:38

just made things right in simple thing i

38:42

as far as i know

38:44

no

38:45

he is our fiction author ever

38:48

had their name appear on

38:51

the spine of a books but lorraine

38:53

williams was

38:55

, see up and the

38:57

idea was alfie put the author's name

38:59

and side of the book book building that

39:02

authors brand and

39:04

see us or was very wary of of

39:06

building and authors brand is in a waste

39:08

and hickman man they got big and they just ran

39:10

off with tsr as point

39:13

of view of bob salvatore he was

39:15

bob salvatore success and he just ran off my

39:17

back to iconic up plus yeah i would

39:19

say ronaldo sad is that is much more

39:21

accurate to say they were pushed away than than

39:23

ran off but since he asserts point of yoga

39:26

and a

39:29

good for a lot of you such an author's that's really

39:31

wounding you know they spend the year

39:34

maybe writing a novel it comes out

39:36

and on the side does new never name i'm

39:39

, a real books have the us as names on

39:41

the side side in that's

39:43

the thing that you know peter attkisson is very easily

39:45

able to six am and it does

39:47

help that like magic help that gathering

39:50

was making so much money that

39:52

when wizards came into by

39:55

tsr lead didn't even need to go

39:57

to the bank for alone they could pay

39:59

out of it out of it pay for pay the thirty million

40:01

dollars for ,

40:03

out of their cashflow on

40:06

in money solves tons of problems

40:08

like have to clear up concerns

40:11

about the dmv intellectual property ah

40:15

will the the coast is gonna write checks two guys

40:18

you decode creator gary gygax a

40:20

d indeed so creator the of arnason even

40:22

to one of jerry's ex wives that

40:24

somehow acquired a stake in the ip

40:27

of the in the through the divorce on

40:29

and they all get sex from wizards and

40:32

wizards now free and clear owns the

40:34

deity intellectual property

40:37

the so some for for the people you

40:39

mentioned at the beginning who like then it

40:41

didn't they never heard of csr they thought that

40:43

was it to the coast has always made dungeons

40:45

and dragons what do you think that people like

40:47

that said said know about this history

40:50

or should take away from the strike why why

40:52

should people he

40:55

interested in

40:56

in tsr in and what lessons to they take away

40:58

from this whole story am i think first

41:00

of all ah

41:04

she's a good tail

41:06

the

41:07

i didn't he kept me

41:09

engaged for a half decade of

41:12

us on and

41:14

i guess it not to take away but

41:17

ah reviewers have described

41:19

it as he see and novelistic ah

41:23

the the first thing i would say is again i

41:25

think it's just a rip roaring enjoyable

41:28

history i ,

41:30

i think the thing that you would take away

41:32

from it is ah

41:36

that the role playing game business is a

41:39

difficult business

41:40

the

41:41

that role playing games

41:44

he delightful in that

41:46

and radical new medium

41:48

the

41:49

and we have not really absorbed

41:52

the challenges presented

41:55

to us by role playing games yet as a culture

41:57

risk of with we're going to the press

41:59

the prophecies of it right now

42:03

one of those challenges is the economics

42:05

of the matter you know if you're going to make a role

42:07

playing game which is good forever and

42:09

you could play for decades

42:12

how are the economics is that going

42:14

to allow for the existence the

42:17

role playing game for years because we

42:19

can certainly agree that role

42:21

playing games or something worthy

42:23

of being freed i'm how

42:26

are we gonna make sure that

42:29

the people who create them i

42:31

get a decent living

42:34

yeah because the thing i always when i was a kid

42:36

playing dungeons dragons the thing i always wondered

42:38

was like you know it when there was

42:40

like you know the complete fighters handbook

42:43

in the complete these handbook and all these

42:45

things as like is there any one am i just dumb

42:47

there's like is there any one earth you can actually

42:49

remember an employment fifty

42:52

bucks worth of rules into again and

42:54

it seems like the answer is basically know that

42:57

know that was to sort of driven by the economics

42:59

more than

43:00

this makes the game more pliable or

43:02

more fun or something that that is very

43:04

fair to say about the nineties

43:07

steve winter was ab i

43:10

want to say that

43:12

he

43:13

review the deity brand manager at one

43:15

point i think that was his title every

43:18

year sit sit down and it really well

43:21

what are we going to vote was this year because we need

43:23

to publish something as we have a company arm

43:26

and that is where a lot of those

43:28

things came from like you know you you had to complete

43:30

player's handbook and fleet else handbook it's like okay

43:32

we're going to slap slap of sweater

43:35

inside down on this character and this race

43:38

i in a lot of was actually so pretty well and

43:41

then they got so far as to published

43:44

designers called

43:46

really advanced dungeons and dragons

43:48

which with some characters and

43:51

option no skills and powers were doing

43:53

this run the character and option line of

43:55

books it was three more hardcover

43:58

books giving you just more room wants

44:01

to go with second edition and ah

44:03

they had one on magic one for fighters

44:05

and i think one was called character options that have to go

44:07

with ah , lead originally

44:10

planned to them but they sold so well they

44:12

did a third on

44:14

and a , of that i

44:16

bought them all so i understand there's you

44:18

are would buy them but i could never actually use

44:21

is an eraser remember all those rules and getting

44:24

a gonna be was just the economic imperative

44:26

of well we got this role playing game

44:28

company began to publish something let's

44:30

go so you say so so wizards

44:32

day solve that problem somehow of like

44:34

why do we really need more dungeons

44:37

dragons book sauce enough the did

44:39

this is where it gets a little difficult so

44:41

wizards

44:43

the first few years just didn't put

44:45

out a bunch of roll a bunch of dungeons

44:47

and dragons material out ,

44:49

for citizen i should say for fifth edition they

44:51

didn't put out a bunch of rolling emitters

44:55

on actually chautauqua

44:57

third edition or fifth edition

44:59

logitech when did they solved the problem

45:01

in in europe and so i would say they

45:03

have

45:04

they may and solve the problem with sedition

45:07

the most recent

45:09

edition of don't have the third and fourth

45:11

kind of followed the ts or model of

45:14

we're going a bunch of worlds and we're gonna have

45:17

ah you know a bunch

45:19

of books for people to buy sit edition

45:21

has

45:22

the had be fewest number of

45:24

books published for it any

45:26

edition of dungeons and dragons perhaps ever

45:28

have to compare to first but i'm

45:30

pretty confident that this edition

45:32

has less than

45:34

the second third or fourth in just terms

45:36

of the numbers of books published

45:40

it seems like he has become so popular

45:42

that maybe you don't there

45:44

are not people buying just a player's handbook

45:46

and so on that you don't need eighty

45:48

different books to to keep

45:51

the company gun

45:54

hi this

45:56

is where is need somebody at the at visit

45:59

the coast start

45:59

mike alstott sending you sales numbers

46:02

to sleep and know and i haven't had

46:04

that yet like credit

46:08

like the

46:10

only the

46:12

indy statistic from with the coast that

46:14

occurs to me right now is they

46:17

claim that over fifty million people have experienced

46:20

dungeons and dragons and they claim that last year

46:23

i would say before ninety ninety

46:25

nine the really

46:26

million people that had experienced

46:28

dungeons and right even

46:31

if you think that with the coast number

46:33

is

46:34

ah

46:36

the a huge factor if it's if it's twenty

46:38

five million actually they doubled it that

46:40

still exponential growth in

46:43

the in the players most of it

46:45

happening during ces edition and

46:47

a lot of it moving into you know

46:49

a get it's not old people like us or

46:51

we old david is or sorties old

46:55

it's not all people like us

46:57

just playing i ,

46:59

in the ah again i'm a teacher by

47:01

day this year in in

47:03

autumn is the ottoman twenty twenty one i

47:06

walked into the teachers' lounge it was nothing

47:08

but women under thirty talking about their deity

47:10

campaign

47:11

that is all that looting and teachers'

47:13

lounge which again

47:16

is real earthquake to me

47:18

the fact that you had

47:20

the again not

47:22

just white dude playing the

47:24

indeed on the

47:26

so i think that clearly

47:29

wizards are doing a good job with brand management

47:31

you could argue that they are just fortunate

47:33

that critical role happened during ces edition

47:36

i'm in you could

47:38

argue that they're benefiting from the online

47:40

actual play movement but

47:43

as i recall this recall this podcast people

47:45

playing dungeons dragons yes anyone does know that

47:47

yeah

47:48

i'm eating if you don't know critical role it's voice

47:50

actors playing dmd i'm

47:53

on you tube in also podcasts

47:57

that maybe the secret sauce the my recollection

47:59

is that

47:59

the girl came after fifth edition see could

48:02

argue that the strong rule set set the basis

48:04

for that movement on ,

48:06

no i i i do not have the kind of sources

48:09

are insight right now to really

48:11

speak with confidence as to

48:13

what's going on with arms with saw

48:15

you're working on an working on a book now about

48:17

the third edition era right

48:20

so is that i

48:22

would imagine it's was to see are

48:24

like what is the some

48:26

, thera and the texas and era

48:29

so let me tell yes david i

48:31

thought that that was in a tag

48:34

third edition on as like a chapter

48:36

of this book i thought that this chapter

48:39

was gonna be i talked to

48:41

everyone who made third edition and they all said

48:43

it was all said hit everybody was a genius

48:47

it it it must have been just the right amount

48:49

of time because people were like i'm

48:51

going to tell you the truth i

48:54

am going to tell you about how there

48:56

was back stabbing and betrayal

48:59

and betrayal and and in

49:01

the creation of third edition dungeons and dragons

49:04

and how you know

49:06

it was contentious and

49:09

you know like the the csr

49:11

people that moved to seattle didn't super fit

49:13

in well with the wizards people in there was that this in

49:15

our house rivalry between the tsr people

49:17

the wizards people and

49:20

peter adkisson when to be it's hard

49:22

to third edition and what does he know he's just

49:24

some been town or in our end

49:26

of it

49:28

figure twenty thousand and

49:31

third edition because ah

49:34

i'd ah i'd i'd started exploring the story

49:36

then again instead of

49:39

we were successful geniuses i

49:41

got let me tell you the truth about bob us

49:44

that guy who are the things

49:46

he did

49:47

in

49:48

i would say it's the seed of a second

49:51

book i don't really and stop and still

49:53

right i'm so busy marketing this one

49:56

but that story is so

49:58

interesting and

49:59

the next step in dungeons dragons till

50:02

really really is awesome floozy

50:04

the don't know the smicor the open gaming license

50:06

the open gaming license says hey

50:09

arms you can make

50:11

the and d books adventurers

50:15

rules

50:16

and sell them on your own you don't need

50:18

to pay the wizards of the coast any money that was

50:20

if is a few boundaries to that like you can't

50:22

take their core characters there's a few

50:24

monsters you can't use

50:27

it's most of the indy and

50:31

that seemed to fuel of the

50:33

indy with 3rd edition it

50:35

seems to be

50:37

helping

50:40

again with the focus

50:43

of the next book is what happens

50:45

if anyone

50:50

can a star wars movie in

50:53

star wars does that is functionally happened

50:55

with dungeons and dragons and it is

50:58

a mixed bag the

51:01

if you stop this story and like

51:03

two thousand eight two thousand and nine looks like

51:05

one of the dumbest things ever done is it looks like

51:07

a d and and

51:09

or the rise of it's rivalry game called pathfinder

51:11

which is basically an older version of deity

51:13

that people still likes when they didn't want to make the switch to fourth

51:16

edition

51:16

i know that fifth edition is your again it's a much

51:19

more complicated tail pies or might be struggling

51:22

the second edition a pathfinder and not sure that

51:24

people are transitioning over that this edition

51:26

is really strong

51:27

the with that that might be the focus of a second

51:30

volume is what happens to accompany

51:32

that just gives away it's intellectual property

51:35

that's a non grata is not the sole

51:37

everyone getting along has that makes it more

51:39

, for us it is like

51:43

okay so one designer

51:46

the communist on the record i can just use his name

51:49

is legendary role playing game designer

51:51

multicore

51:52

who will one of the code designers of

51:54

third edition dungeons and dragons and

51:56

that has his own game company worried that

51:58

he publishes a game probably was

51:59

mr newman era i'm he

52:02

described going to a whizzes of the coast

52:04

barbecue and it's not like a fish unofficial

52:06

company barbecue but it's wizards because people in

52:09

fighting in fighting r p

52:10

and apparently the

52:13

window to the coast people would like play chess

52:16

games these parts

52:18

and there's some game that it's a card game

52:20

that involves slapping cards down on the table

52:22

or something and

52:25

the will do because people have played this before

52:27

so they all beat the tsr

52:30

people

52:30

and when it when they're doing it if they're

52:32

slap in these cards down the

52:35

the mighty cook said he just stopped humiliation

52:37

he felt like though the wizards people were

52:40

just purposely humiliating them and rubbing

52:42

the failure of the tsr people in their faces

52:45

in it was the slapping them harder than they really are

52:47

exactly the same considering experience

52:50

of being defeated in this kind of physical game

52:53

it was about more than just ah

52:56

play testing and yeah

52:58

that yeah that's the juicy stuff

53:00

said to stuff a drama right there you know so

53:04

i am i'm working on that opened that dive

53:06

down into with some or

53:08

okay awesome and then i guess probably live in

53:10

the last thing i went to ask you is to do with

53:12

in wisconsin and size

53:14

is curious if you have visited wake to the

53:16

event you go around and look at all like gary gygax

53:19

his house and all these like where the dungeon hobby

53:21

shop was as is ah that i to what extent

53:23

that still there in as it's good to go do

53:25

it all pilgrimage so

53:28

the

53:28

gary cohn is certainly worth a trip gary

53:31

time is the gaming

53:33

convention or that follows

53:35

the anniversary of gary gygax his

53:37

death

53:38

ah when gary gygax died

53:40

after his funeral

53:42

that everybody ah from the funeral

53:44

went to the on the ,

53:47

hollen like to leave us which is where the first

53:49

jen time took place and

53:51

they and a bunch of games there and

53:54

everybody was like that was so fun we should come

53:56

back seat and next year and do it again and

53:58

it involved is the

53:59

the into a gaming convention and

54:02

that is very much worth a trip to lake

54:04

geneva because it

54:06

it tracks

54:08

lot of a list role

54:11

playing game talent but it's are going to

54:13

save like less than five thousand people but

54:15

it's a smallish conventions you really

54:17

get an intimate experience and

54:20

, here for that and going

54:22

to downtown lake geneva in seeing where the

54:24

first yes our offices were were

54:27

where the dungeon hobby shop was you

54:29

can still do you gary gygax his

54:32

widow still lives in his house on

54:34

not the same house he design dungeons and dragons design

54:36

but if he has but if house on

54:38

that you can still got all the places i would certainly

54:41

tell you though

54:42

they can either has not really leaned

54:44

into ah their

54:46

history is the birthplace of tabletop

54:48

roleplaying games i'm ,

54:50

again in initially they viewed tsr

54:52

as you know the weird long hairs on

54:56

and yeah fine

54:57

twenty three years later it's gone and

55:00

now the fact that people feel so strongly about

55:02

it they wanna com delete to neither and

55:04

neither and where these things happened hasn't

55:06

quite dawned on the the city

55:08

elders of leaked to the the yet i certainly think

55:11

within fifty years you're gonna see

55:13

a lot of these properties you know i've

55:15

bought up

55:17

and restored to some degree

55:20

aren't like right now the the ah

55:22

location of the original done in hobby shops

55:25

is a killer wins a screenshot which

55:27

the find you can go to get an ice cream be like oh yes

55:29

it all happened here ah right

55:32

now and i certainly think if you are able to get a role

55:34

playing historians location or

55:37

it would do very very well maybe i'm wrong

55:39

they can either is a tourist town

55:42

the certainly seems like it would attract people from chicago

55:44

like there's a a rail line that goes

55:46

rates from chicago to lake geneva so

55:49

the user is you know you're in a statue of the

55:51

dragon or a giant twenty sided die

55:53

or something in the in the parkers yeah

55:55

right right now there's just i want to say a a

55:58

on the twenty plaque

55:59

the

56:00

they were supposed to be a statue

56:03

it is currently mired in litigation as i

56:05

understand

56:09

between

56:10

who and who's i wanna say it's

56:12

gary gygax his widow and i forget

56:14

who else that there was a like

56:17

you know gary gygax statue fund the statue

56:19

has not been

56:21

the actually well hopefully hopefully someday yeah

56:24

article

56:26

so lower from much at a time so do you have what

56:28

kind of like what's been going on with a book like

56:30

would have what's ahead for the book to have any other final

56:32

thoughts are with that so first of

56:34

i would say out to the please go buy my book

56:37

slaying the dragon a secret history of dungeons and

56:39

dragons by me it's available everywhere

56:42

i anywhere

56:43

these buy it from here are either local

56:46

gaming story because some gaming stars are carrying

56:48

it ah or from your local in the

56:50

bookstore if you have one near you because

56:53

it just helps support the publishing industry better that

56:55

way on other than that i

56:57

am also on twitter and facebook

57:00

posting dmd sales numbers right

57:02

now like at every damn posting

57:04

of auto and a lot of see i've seen a

57:06

lot of sales numbers yeah yeah yeah

57:09

the actors i'm like you know i got oldest primary

57:12

source material i

57:14

just can't imagine anyone's ever going to one

57:16

a book of nothing but numbers on

57:18

but i kind of want to get it out and under the public

57:20

eye so i'm just putting suffered

57:22

social media and in some people say that's delightful

57:25

on as a podcast of my

57:27

own com plot points it

57:30

, about two hundred episodes

57:32

of in depth of role playing game reviews

57:34

then i had a kid and

57:39

it is switch from from that which was you

57:41

know as , know know

57:44

barr currently if you're actually going to read the book

57:46

and do your homework that is way

57:48

way more difficult than just like reading a marketing

57:50

seaton talking to somebody on and

57:53

again that reading the book was are added value

57:55

in the podcast and i've not had that

57:57

time since i had a kid eighteen months ago so

58:00

i switched it up in we're

58:02

mostly reading the first edition

58:04

dungeon master's guide allowed his

58:06

me and and role playing games academic

58:09

name's scott bruner so

58:11

we currently have done we don't within

58:13

twenty four episodes merle like he's twenty three

58:16

as a dungeon master's guide of

58:18

, tell us they come for the digressions

58:21

on to the get it seems like we're a good pair

58:23

to be pair be going over that telecasts

58:25

hear your started commenting on a day after reading

58:28

that's not just an audio book it's it's book the commentary

58:30

the mid rush that really makes it value would

58:33

seems and

58:35

our other than that

58:38

it's either the the big things are follow me on

58:40

sit by the book follow me on social media i

58:42

get my podcast on

58:44

the i do i am optimistic about a volume

58:47

to ah but it took me five

58:49

years straight this one so we'll see how on

58:51

volume to take

58:53

it was definitely attic anymore you can

58:56

you know a key i can never get enough

58:58

dungeons and dragons history books so

59:00

on and oh yeah i haven't read anything about a

59:02

third edition era in terms of a book

59:04

so that would be an unexplored

59:07

territory on his eyes you know

59:09

i think to myself the thing that really made this book

59:12

good is people sending me all

59:14

those documents and i don't really have any from

59:16

that area personally maybe

59:18

i just need to start writing and hope a cf

59:22

anyone if anyone listening has some my thoughts

59:24

about thirty this and you've been wanting to get off your chest

59:27

yeah , or a week recall years

59:29

to secret documents to to then our

59:31

emails or sales numbers and again like

59:34

the sales numbers i feel like i'm probably

59:36

the most necessary thing like you know how many

59:38

players handbooks were sold by the third

59:40

edition you know how many dungeon master's guide so

59:42

he can compare it it and

59:45

i've i've heard anecdotes ah but

59:48

anecdote is not the same as same good documents

59:51

yeah why guy i hope that all works out in this book

59:53

is it's a great read it's really really fine

59:55

and doesn't work in florida to

59:58

anything you do going forward the

1:00:00

cinema saw david or

1:00:04

it's what we wrap things up there susan

1:00:06

speaking with ben rigs about his

1:00:08

new book slang the dragon the dragon

1:00:11

history of dungeons and dragons so

1:00:13

ben thank you so much for joining us anytime

1:00:15

you want me on i will be here

1:00:18

and that was her interview so big thanks

1:00:20

against ben rigs for joining us on the show

1:00:22

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1:00:25

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