0:01

Hey better babes, it's Jonathan Van

0:03

Ness and welcome back to

0:05

getting better Can you believe that

0:07

it is already earth month

0:09

earth day? We are here. Are

0:11

we totally past the point of

0:13

no return? Can sustainability

0:15

be sexy can sustainability be

0:18

possible honey? That's what

0:20

we're gonna find out about today on

0:22

getting better. It's like How can

0:24

we be more sustainable? And to talk

0:26

about that, we have Leah Thomas,

0:28

honey. She is the author of the

0:30

best seller, the intersectional environmentalist, a

0:32

widely taught resource and university classrooms nationwide.

0:34

Beyond her advocacy, she has also

0:36

lent her expertise as a climate solutions

0:38

consultant for major companies like Apple.

0:41

She's also been recognized on Forbes 30

0:43

under 30 list. Yes. And time

0:45

100 next. Yes. And has

0:47

presented on prestigious stages like Dreamforce,

0:49

Ted and Aspen ideas. And

0:52

honey, is sustainability even possible? Leah,

0:54

how are you? Hi, thank you for having

0:56

me. Thank you for coming in and sharing your

0:58

gorgeous presence with us. And thank you so much

1:00

for doing all this incredible work. One

1:03

question to lead off that was not planned. Is

1:06

earth month like just your Super Bowl

1:08

or is it like, or is it like, uh,

1:10

is it like when you like, is it like for

1:12

us when it's like the biannual sale for Sephora and we

1:14

just start like freaking out about like how much we

1:16

have to talk about. Sephora sales. No, Earth month

1:18

is like my Super Bowl. I actually

1:20

say that verbatim. Like this is my time.

1:23

Like the earthy nerd comes out. But then

1:25

Earth month is also every month for me,

1:27

but it's just such a special time. I'm

1:29

just so curious to start off

1:31

with like, how has this administration impacted

1:33

your work? How has your work

1:35

in environmental advocacy changed from 2024 to

1:37

2025? Like, how's it going? I'm

1:40

pretty sad. I would say in

1:42

the last couple of years with the

1:44

last administration, which was imperfect, however,

1:46

we were kind of in like an

1:48

environmental justice renaissance. And there was

1:50

like billions of dollars that was specifically

1:52

going to go to low income

1:54

and communities of color that were burdened

1:56

with environmental hazards. And now

1:58

all of that is being undone and stripped

2:00

away. So kind of an uphill battle,

2:02

even in the education space where

2:05

I like to focus on a lot

2:07

of schools can no longer teach

2:09

intersection. Intersectionality about climate change and even

2:11

say climate or intersectionality They can't

2:13

even say it and like intersectionality is

2:15

my favorite word to say so

2:17

I'm really upset about that But the

2:19

broader implications of it are pretty

2:21

damaging so not happy a lot of

2:23

funding is getting taken away and

2:26

a lot of great work is being

2:28

Undone practically overnight so very scary times

2:30

for the environmental space. How are you taking

2:32

care of yourself through this? Honestly

2:34

crafting like I ceramics My husband's a

2:36

ceramicist. Oh my god. He looks like

2:38

build the thing but he's not a

2:40

wheel person me either It's just it's

2:42

bad for my brain like wheel is

2:44

not good. He doesn't like it But

2:46

he likes to build it. Do you

2:48

guys need to be like ceramicist like

2:50

queens together? But

2:54

I have to find joy and make that

2:56

kind of a part of my activism to get

2:58

through it. I think previous generations did that.

3:00

They had parties. They hung out with their friends.

3:02

They had dinners. So I'm trying to just

3:04

create spaces for people to come and relax.

3:06

I'm starting a crafting club. I'm like

3:08

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4:12

on Max. Is

4:15

it individual responsibility or is it

4:17

corporate systemic responsibility that's going to

4:19

get us to a more sustainable place?

4:22

In the words of Ariana Grande, yes, and

4:25

it's not an either or. I get

4:27

really frustrated with that, but I'm again, trying

4:29

to meet those questions with empathy because

4:31

I think a lot of people are just

4:33

exhausted when it comes to these like

4:35

mass systems of oppression that feel like they're

4:37

ruining everything and they are, but we

4:39

can't have systems change without individual action. And

4:42

I always like to say like each

4:44

of us, I don't know, I like to

4:46

imagine a little doughnut or a little

4:48

circle or something. And each of us are

4:50

just like one little piece of that doughnut.

4:52

And even if we like step outside because

4:54

we're tired, the doughnut might get a little

4:56

bit smaller, but we can come back. and

4:58

we have to do everything in community and

5:00

doing it in community can lead to systems

5:02

change, et cetera. So we need a lot

5:04

of individuals to take action in order to get

5:06

systems change. So I want to remind people

5:08

of that. It's a yes and not an

5:10

either or. Have you seen anyone doing

5:12

anything that you're like, that could lead

5:14

to something? Like this is like any reasons

5:17

to help through the first three months of this?

5:19

No. Yeah. I mean, honestly, like a lot of

5:21

people are crafting, farming, learning how

5:23

to grow their own food, be

5:25

sustainable. Like basically the more lefty

5:27

version of being a prepper, but

5:29

not in that way. So

5:31

I think that's giving me a lot of

5:34

hope because again, I think a lot of people

5:36

are realizing like, oh, I can make my

5:38

own clothes. I'm seeing people learn how to sew

5:40

more so they're not even supporting these large

5:42

corporations. And for example, if someone's boycotting a target

5:44

or something like that, or who knows? Yeah,

5:47

these companies are actually taking a hit

5:49

because people are deciding what to do with their

5:51

dollars. And I think it's making people feel more

5:53

powerful and it's leading them to just buy

5:55

stuff. or make stuff at home or like support

5:57

a local store. So I think that is

5:59

making me kind of happy to see recycling systems

6:01

of sustainability. Is

6:04

there is there any like

6:06

obviously in the 80s people probably didn't know

6:08

what the internet was going to be. But is

6:10

there like a creative like solution to like waste

6:12

or plastic or like if you could create like

6:14

a perfect world that could deal with like plastic

6:16

waste or global warming like what sort of systems

6:19

do you think that we need to have that

6:21

we don't have. Hmm. I would

6:23

say we don't need to make any more new plastic.

6:25

There's already so much plastic in circulation. I

6:27

was just in North Carolina, like visiting

6:29

a plastic bottle recycling facility. And it was

6:31

honestly pretty cool. And you can just

6:33

use that and turn it into furniture and

6:35

so many other things. So I think

6:37

we immediately need to like just - No

6:39

new plastic. No new plastic. We don't need

6:41

any new plastic. There's also bio -based plastics,

6:43

aluminum, so many other things. So I

6:45

would say get rid of plastic, recycle what

6:47

we have, try to upcycle as much

6:49

as possible. And then in addition to -

6:51

we just need more renewable energy. So

6:54

if I got like real crazy with it, I

6:56

think it'd be cool if we had more solar power,

6:58

because I just like solar power. Yes. And I

7:00

was thinking like mass transit, like, like,

7:02

but like, like, like. trains,

7:06

like more, just like more not planes.

7:08

Yeah, and that's frustrating because

7:10

I live in between California, Missouri,

7:13

and then I'm here all the time

7:15

because my team's here. And at least you

7:17

all have public transportation. Is it safe

7:19

all the time? Not all the time. But

7:21

in California, it's so frustrating because it's

7:23

such a car heavy city and just getting

7:26

things like amazing public transportation systems would

7:28

drastically reduce our emissions. And that's like the

7:30

easiest. Answer but we could also

7:32

empower people to bike a little bit more when

7:34

it feels safe and things like that But I think

7:36

yeah, that's what my perfect future would look like

7:38

and then yeah, everybody having

7:40

clean air ah Greenwashing

7:42

Queen. Yes. What is

7:44

greenwashing? So greenwashing is when

7:46

a company or an organization has

7:49

a sustainability initiative and

7:51

maybe is not actually truly sustainable at

7:53

their core. However, they are doing

7:55

something that seems sustainable and that could

7:57

be as simple as maybe they

7:59

put green on a product and then

8:01

it's not actually made sustainably or it

8:03

could be something like a full -on initiative

8:05

like an Amazon or something donating like

8:07

millions of dollars to an environmental organization.

8:10

Some people may argue that that's greenwashing.

8:12

I I don't know, it depends,

8:14

it depends. It has - Cause it just depends on like

8:16

where the organization, like who the organization that got money

8:18

is. Over time, like I feel like

8:20

I've gotten a little bit less strict

8:22

about greenwashing because organizations need money, especially

8:24

right now. I just consider it to

8:26

be climate reparation. So if there's an

8:28

organization that donates millions of dollars and

8:30

maybe they're not the most sustainable as

8:32

they should, is it greenwashing? Who knows?

8:34

Maybe yes, they want good press, but

8:36

I'm like, they need to give their

8:38

money away. So instead of thinking about

8:40

it as greenwashing, I'm like, this is

8:42

climate reparation. as long as it goes

8:44

to organizations that really need it, grassroots,

8:46

environmental, orgs, et cetera. So. I don't want to be one

8:48

of those people who's like, oh, I need you to like do

8:50

this, like explain this like emotional labor test, but I want to,

8:53

this I think is really important. So, and

8:55

also I'm doing that like Leslie stall thing where

8:57

like. I already know the answer to this.

8:59

I'm pretty sure, so don't think I'm an idiot.

9:01

I would never. Can you

9:03

tell us why racial justice

9:06

is environmental justice? No,

9:08

this question is so important. I have

9:10

people that are like, okay, so you're telling

9:12

me trees are racist? And that makes

9:14

total sense because environmentalism, usually people are thinking

9:16

about like white men summoning a mountain,

9:18

saving whales, very disconnected from social justice. But

9:21

unfortunately, especially in the United

9:23

States in particular, because of

9:25

housing discrimination, and

9:28

justices over the years, like

9:30

you'll often see. Okay,

9:32

so the best way to explain this, I love saying

9:34

doughnut. I feel like it's in all of my love

9:36

doughnut. It's giving me everything bagel from everything everywhere all

9:38

at once. Did you see that movie? I saw

9:40

it, but I'm like, what is this? She likes everything

9:42

bagel. Yeah, it's like, I love

9:44

that movie. But anyway, so it's the doughnut bagel I'm

9:46

here with you on. Yeah, so if there's

9:48

a doughnut and it's like a toxic doughnut,

9:50

so that's what this woman named Hazel

9:53

M. Johnson titled it. So a lot of

9:55

black and brown and low income communities

9:57

are basically surrounded by toxic waste, highways,

10:00

poor air quality. or water quality,

10:02

et cetera. So if you look

10:04

at communities that were formerly redlined

10:06

or communities where housing discrimination, et

10:08

cetera, flourished back in the day.

10:10

Because it's fully legal. Fully legal.

10:12

And a lot of communities are

10:14

still in those spaces. A

10:16

lot of those are toxic doughnuts. So a

10:18

lot of toxic waste was going to

10:20

lower income and black and brown dumped there

10:22

because like the really expensive communities didn't

10:24

want. Yep. Yeah, like stuff getting dumped there.

10:26

Yeah. Cause could you imagine Orange County

10:28

having lead in their water, but Flint, Michigan,

10:31

they're like, Oh, you know, we just,

10:33

you know what I think people don't get

10:35

that I always come back to this. Cause

10:37

I never knew until like when I was

10:39

like 30, like it's been the last 10

10:41

years. Black women didn't have the right

10:44

to vote in the United States until 1965. Isn't that

10:46

crazy? Oh my god. So when all of these communities

10:48

were getting built from the ground up, like in the

10:50

40s, in the 30s and 40s, like in the great

10:52

urban spread and when people were like, you know, moving

10:54

into the suburbs and like all these. Black

10:56

women didn't even get to vote. So when

10:58

people were voting on where to dump this, like

11:00

a Sydney ordinance, that, like, should red lining be

11:02

like literally a whole core whore? And I just,

11:04

when people think like, oh, it's even Stephen now,

11:07

like that was 150 years ago, no, 1960, was

11:09

like, my mom was alive. My mom was five

11:11

before black women got to vote in a federal

11:13

election. Like that's fucking crazy. Like that is, like,

11:15

so it really does, like there is an environmental

11:17

impact and I just don't understand. why,

11:20

well actually do understand why people don't want

11:22

to draw that line because it makes them feel

11:24

culpable and it's like their own shame and

11:26

their own guilt and so then they like fight

11:28

against that. And it's frustrating, but I think

11:30

for a long time when it comes to

11:32

philanthropy or any sort of like environmental activism,

11:34

I think it's something that made people feel really

11:36

good about themselves. Like, oh, I'm saving the

11:38

whales far, far away or I'm giving my

11:40

money to help rebuild trees. I don't know where

11:43

the trees are going, but the second you

11:45

say like, no, we actually, okay, it's great. We

11:47

want to fight for endangered species, but what

11:49

if we told you some of those endangered

11:51

species are in fact humans? It

11:53

just brings about a whole lot of mess

11:55

because I think a lot of people want

11:57

to think of environmentalism as something far away

11:59

and they don't want to feel complicit, but

12:01

that's the reality of the situation. There's endangered

12:03

humans, just like there's endangered species and things

12:05

like that. Yes, endangered

12:08

humans. Although,

12:11

sidebar. I did really love

12:13

our whales episode that we did like a

12:15

couple years ago. It was really good But

12:17

they're not like these like whales that live

12:19

like outside of Seattle and there's like specific

12:21

Dr. Giles We love her and because because

12:23

the thing is salmon we're eating all these

12:25

fucking we who doesn't love a whale, but

12:27

we're eating we're eating their salmon. There's shark

12:30

eating whales. And then there's

12:32

like mammal eating whales. And then there's like fish

12:34

eating whales. And the mammal eating whales are

12:36

doing good. They're totally fine. Like their population's good.

12:38

It's the fish eaters because our fisheries, we've

12:40

plugged up all these dams. And so then they

12:42

were trying to say like, oh, it's the

12:44

noise. It's not the noise. Cause the mammal eaters

12:46

are fine. It's just that these, it's

12:49

like the

12:51

pilot, they're

12:53

called like the pilot Northwestern pilot

12:55

whale. They're

12:58

like this like little pot and like the babies

13:00

keep getting born like super skinty and they're loaded

13:02

with like all this like fat from the mom

13:04

because they're like because the mom's like having to

13:06

like do so much to like give it to

13:08

the baby and they're like fucking stuff whatever I

13:10

think it's like my millennial trauma between free willy

13:12

and lamb before time right lamb before time was

13:14

probably before your time but wow what a movie

13:16

Have you ever seen it? I'm not even gonna. I

13:18

don't even want to admit that I haven't seen it.

13:21

It was okay. Do see it? You're like a little,

13:23

you're like... No, I'm 30. Huh? I just turned 30.

13:25

Yeah, you missed it by like eight years. Because a

13:27

tiny baby. Yeah. I mean, I mean, you're

13:29

like a grown woman who's like, you've done so

13:31

many amazing things. But I mean, land before time, it's

13:33

like you were like, you were probably like negative

13:35

seven. Yeah. And I was two. And

13:37

wow, the dinosaurs. I'll watch it. Talk about

13:39

global warming. had Wally. What? Wally? And I

13:41

probably just missed that one. Yeah. Who's Wally?

13:43

You don't know Wally? No. Oh my God,

13:45

it's about this little robot and it's about

13:48

like climate change and everybody has to live

13:50

on like a ship or I forget or

13:52

space or something. It is really before time.

13:54

I feel like our childhood like entertainment changed

13:56

so much. Rapidly. Like by the time, like

13:58

when I was little, I was like dinosaurs,

14:00

but then you were already like futuristic robots

14:02

with sustainability. Yeah. Okay,

14:04

this I was shook. 71

14:07

% of black people in the United

14:09

States live in counties that violate

14:11

federal air quality standards. Why is that

14:13

number so important and how did

14:15

we find out about that? Yeah,

14:17

so that's the statistic that I included

14:19

in my book and it came right

14:21

off the EPA's website and it's frustrating

14:24

because it goes to show that there's

14:26

regulation in place, yes, but it's not

14:28

being equally enforced and that's what environmental

14:30

racism is because that makes absolutely no

14:32

sense because it says federal air quality

14:34

standards and then they're just violating it

14:36

with no consequence. So there's no consequence.

14:39

There's no reason to make sure people

14:41

have clean air, clean water and a

14:43

safe and healthy living environment. And with

14:45

the black American community in particular, it's

14:47

really important because there's higher instances of

14:49

respiratory illnesses and asthma in our community.

14:52

So, and it's frustrating because oftentimes you're like, oh, it's

14:54

your fault. It's just something that happens to black Americans,

14:56

but a lot of it also has to do with

14:58

our air quality. And yeah, with

15:00

like the asthma, like health, like unwanted

15:02

health outcomes. And also

15:04

too, it's like the, I wonder,

15:07

I mean, I don't want to like,

15:09

but like maternal mortality. Like

15:11

because if you're like trying to have a baby

15:13

and there's like weird shit in your water

15:15

or like your hospital's like way further away because

15:17

you're like in a like in a healthcare

15:19

desert and like food desert. Yes. I found that

15:21

out a lot when I was researching about

15:23

um people in Mississippi are living with HIV and

15:25

it's like just getting to the doctor because

15:28

like there's no buses like just getting there if

15:30

you don't have a car like fucking forget

15:32

about it. Did

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safety, efficacy, or quality. Curious

17:42

about this. Have you ever heard of the horseshoe theory? Is

17:45

that the one where if you go so far

17:47

left, you end up right? Yes. But so the horseshoe

17:49

theory is that it's like, if you go so

17:51

far, like it's actually like the furthest left and the

17:53

furthest right aren't like this. I agree that. It's

17:55

more like a horseshoe. So it's like that. So we

17:57

did an episode about gay Republicans and tradwives like

17:59

years ago. I need to listen to this. It was

18:01

pre -getting better. It was like, this is all getting

18:03

curious. You can still get on the feed if

18:05

you're into it. So when I was

18:07

researching for Tradwives, I started finding all

18:09

of these women, one of whom I used

18:11

to be her yoga teacher. I

18:14

used to do this woman's hair. I

18:16

used to like, we used to be in the same yoga

18:18

studio. Like I thought she was totally down. Like I thought she

18:20

was like totally great. Then I

18:22

see her like liking all this crazy like

18:24

Maha stuff, all this RFK Junior stuff, all

18:26

this Trump stuff. And she's still actively a

18:28

yoga teacher. Prepper. See, a lot of them,

18:30

it goes from, and that's why I'm like,

18:33

okay, I feel like I'm becoming, I'm trying

18:35

to be a crunchy granola lefty. Yes. So

18:37

I'm posting more on TikTok, even of just

18:39

me like crafting and making bread and things

18:41

like that, because part of me is like,

18:43

oh my God, this is terrifying. There's this

18:45

pipeline. You start wanting to live a

18:47

sustainable lifestyle, and then all of a sudden people are

18:49

telling you to like join the, oh, right. No,

18:51

there's this one lady. Or woman, which is fine. She

18:54

has a really intense top knot, and

18:56

she's like, yeah. the trails in

18:58

the sky that, yeah, that came from a

19:00

plane. Like she's like a conspiracy theorist

19:02

now. And like, and she's like,

19:04

I'm, and I'm looking at her, I'm like, she

19:07

actually kind of makes me scared. You

19:09

know, cause I'm like, am I missing something?

19:11

But yeah, so what is this? Like,

19:13

cause I mean, there are people across political

19:15

lines who are seeing that there is

19:17

like. a lack of sustainability, an

19:19

excess of corporate greed. They are

19:22

seeing that this isn't going to end

19:24

well when our water is getting

19:26

worse. Our weather is

19:28

getting crazier. States

19:30

are uninsurable. We have

19:32

California, Florida. But

19:35

what do you think that's about? How

19:37

could people be kind of similar but

19:39

so far apart at the same time?

19:41

Yeah, I feel like it goes from

19:43

if you value your personal freedom and

19:45

then you also value community

19:47

so there are a lot of people that

19:49

only value personal freedom and they're like I want

19:51

to drink raw milk because I want my

19:53

kids to drink raw milk but then they won't

19:55

really value like community so they might make

19:58

certain choices that actually are really harmful for the

20:00

community as a so I feel like if

20:02

you have those two things you usually end up

20:04

being a little bit more empathetic and maybe

20:06

sometimes that tends to be on the left more

20:08

than not. I mean, I'm biased, obviously. But

20:10

if you only care about personal freedom and then

20:12

what you're putting in your body, et cetera,

20:14

then I think it can kind of lead you

20:16

a bit astray. I love that you say

20:18

that joy is an act of resistance. That's something

20:20

I've heard in so many marginalized community, activist

20:22

spaces. Like, I just think it's so beautiful and

20:24

I think it's so true. But

20:27

like, if you

20:29

had like a Greta Turnberg who was just

20:31

like, you know, like, get

20:33

on the boat and fucking eat. Like

20:35

seals and don't use your phone for

20:38

fuck's sake. Yeah, like Like just a

20:40

more militant climate girly like what do

20:42

you say to someone who's like? I

20:44

don't want to have joy, like the

20:46

world's on fire. Okay, if I could

20:48

tell you a secret. So I've only

20:50

met Greta once in passing, but I've

20:52

met a lot of youth climate activists.

20:54

They're actually some of the funniest people

20:56

I have ever met in my life.

20:58

And I think that's important to note

21:00

because They scare me on Instagram. It's

21:03

a talk girl. It's scary. But they're

21:05

so funny. Like I have been after

21:07

conference of the parties, which is like

21:09

this huge climate conference. Like I've gone

21:11

with youth climate activists to the clubs

21:13

in Europe and just had a blast

21:15

and things like that. So, I want

21:17

people to know, even if you see

21:19

their public figure -ness, they're actually silly

21:21

little teenagers and people that are running

21:23

around at shady clubs and things like

21:25

that. And they're great people. But I

21:28

would say that joy is so important

21:30

because, one, I know that those people

21:32

are experiencing joy. So please

21:34

experience and find joy. And

21:36

two, y 'all, if

21:38

you are in any activism space that

21:40

does not want you to be joyful,

21:43

Those are not your people. Again, they don't

21:45

actually care about you. They don't care about

21:47

the community like we were talking about earlier.

21:49

I don't know how that ties into horseshoe

21:51

theory, but it kind of feels that way.

21:53

Like if you're in an activism space that

21:55

says it's about the cause, but they're actually

21:57

doing things that are harming the community, not

21:59

allowing them to feel nourished, feel joy, all

22:01

those sorts of things. It's not a healthy

22:03

space. And if the Black Panthers could look

22:05

so cute with their cute little outfits, and

22:07

if they could start these, you know, free

22:09

lunch programs and like dance and party like...

22:11

no excuse not to do that. It was

22:13

a part of their activism It was a

22:15

radical act and we need community care and

22:18

we saw that with like the queer community

22:20

through the HIV AIDS crisis like it reminds

22:22

you of Gretchen Rubin we did an episode

22:24

about optimism a few weeks ago and she

22:26

was saying that like people that are happier

22:28

or more likely like the data shows that

22:30

they're more likely to get into these fights

22:32

like in a good way like people that

22:34

are happy and joyful or more willing to

22:36

like fight against climate change or like fight

22:38

for community but people that are more isolated

22:40

and sad and like depressed and like not

22:42

engaged in their community, they're less likely to

22:44

want to like roll up their sleeves and

22:46

have a hard conversation or like, you know,

22:48

so it, I think it, joy

22:50

really is such an act, but, and I don't

22:53

want to sound like a broken record, but

22:55

I just think in this time, there are so

22:57

many reasons to feel guilt and shame about

22:59

like what you're sharing, what joy you're having. And

23:01

at least I run into that. And I

23:03

think it's, it does really make, I've just been

23:05

thinking a lot about like I want that's

23:07

why I was like even for the title this

23:09

episode It's like can sustainability be sexy. Can

23:12

it be fun? Like I don't want to be

23:14

like be shameless like lead No, and I

23:16

feel like for the last six years of like

23:18

being a public figure I feel like so

23:20

much of what I've done is like a lot

23:22

of me is contorted to the people that

23:24

were like really negative and like didn't want me

23:26

to share joy and only wanted to give

23:28

like really fucking cruel mean feedback who never knew

23:30

me never like even tried to know me

23:33

and were just like literally verbally shitting all over

23:35

me and those are the people that I

23:37

like changed for versus the people who've been like

23:39

supporting me and like loving me so I'm

23:41

trying to like get into that shift but I

23:43

do think that's really important with activism because

23:45

everyone is always so strong opinioned about like Well,

23:48

I don't to say everyone is always because

23:50

like really generalizing, but a lot of people

23:52

can be very strong willed about what their

23:54

opinion is. And I mean, I've cut people

23:56

off because they, you know, didn't. And I'm

23:58

trying to get better at that. Yeah. And

24:00

honestly, like. Some people don't know this, some

24:02

people might, but I have to do little

24:04

things to make myself happy. My book is

24:06

The Intersectional Environmentalist, How to Dismantle Systems of

24:08

Oppression, very dark name, but was like, I'm

24:10

gonna put a rainbow on it. I want

24:12

all my stuff to be colorful, so I

24:14

love playing these little games and hidden messages,

24:16

making everything really bright and colorful, et cetera,

24:18

because I'm like, okay, if I'm gonna be

24:20

writing about this kind of stuff, I wanna

24:22

make it joyful. I wanna have musicians come

24:25

to the events that we're doing and arts

24:27

and crafts projects and things like that. I

24:29

want people... to the environmental space and feel

24:31

held and be able to just radically imagine

24:33

what a better future could look like. I

24:35

don't want the environmental movement to be about

24:37

not having hope for a better world. I

24:39

want people to come into this space and

24:41

say, wow, I see a future and it's

24:43

brighter and it's greener and everybody's in community

24:45

and we're dancing. And that's what motivates me

24:47

to do this work. I guess all I

24:49

would just like to let all of you

24:51

know is that I was already in love

24:53

with you, but now I'm just like, Ouch,

24:56

like I think I sprained my ankle, like falling

24:58

in love with you. You're amazing. I just loved our

25:00

time so much. Um, so you've

25:02

talked, oh, I think it's really important. So I do

25:04

want to talk about the world that you're creating

25:06

and the, like the positive, like future for our world,

25:08

but also misinformation. That's so important. And especially when

25:10

it comes to the world that we're living in, so

25:12

just want to arm people with a little bit

25:14

more of your knowledge. You

25:16

talked about how misinformation spreads online like

25:18

wildfire, especially around climate change. What

25:20

role do social media platforms play in

25:22

either helping or hurting the movement towards

25:24

sustainability and climate justice? Yeah. So

25:27

interestingly enough, like Pinterest is one

25:29

of the only social media platforms that

25:31

has a climate misinformation and disinformation

25:33

policy. Shout out to Pinterest. I

25:35

love Pinterest. They're just very positive over

25:37

there. They're so great. Um, and I think

25:39

that's amazing because they'll flag content if

25:41

it's like, no. The climate's not changing or

25:43

different things like that, but with Metta,

25:45

I would love to encourage them to maybe

25:47

bring back some of that fact -checking because

25:49

it can be really dangerous. People

25:51

can really say whatever they want to say and as

25:53

a, you know, content creator sometimes, we

25:55

don't have the same journalistic or academic integrity

25:58

on social media where you have to cite

26:00

your sources. And I kind of wish that

26:02

that was something that could happen because people

26:04

can say anything about the climate and they

26:06

are. It's turning into a lot

26:08

of conspiracy theories, niche audiences. It's also radicalizing

26:10

people to the alt -right. I feel like

26:12

everything, like all conspiracy theories and one way

26:14

or another leads to the alt -right. So

26:16

without that journalistic integrity and citing things or

26:18

fact -checking built into the platforms, it can

26:21

just spread and spread and spread. What do

26:23

you say to someone who feels overwhelmed? Like

26:25

the climate crisis is too big, too politicized,

26:27

too depressing, or like whatever they do, is

26:29

it going to make that big of a

26:31

difference anyway? I try to flip

26:33

it on his head and be like, oh

26:35

my God, the climate crisis is so big

26:37

and I'm so small, but... a beautiful thing

26:39

to be one of many people that are

26:41

working towards change. And then it kind of

26:44

calms me down again when I remember, oh,

26:46

I can just show up exactly as I

26:48

am. I'm a writer. That's what I

26:50

do. So maybe I can write about it. I can

26:52

just contribute the skills that I have to the movements

26:54

that I love and then it feels a little less

26:56

overwhelming. So I want people to show up to the

26:58

movements they care about exactly as they are. If they're

27:00

a baker, every movement needs

27:02

like cookies or refreshments or something.

27:04

If you're an accountant like

27:07

working at a nonprofit, oh

27:09

my god, please help the nonprofits balance

27:11

their books. ever you can do apply that

27:13

to the movements that you care about,

27:15

whether it's like, I don't know, we had

27:17

so many companies donate during the LA

27:19

wildfires and even things like hair care or

27:21

beauty care or whatever it is, like

27:23

that can help people after natural disaster. So

27:25

I really want people to understand like

27:27

it's such a beautiful thing to be one

27:29

of many and be a part of

27:31

a community. And that's how we're going to

27:33

tackle it. We're not going to tackle

27:36

it alone. So, and then also feel that

27:38

it is scary. It is big. I

27:40

think. Anger and sadness are completely justifiable responses

27:42

to injustice and major climate catastrophe. So

27:44

I want people to sit with those emotions

27:46

and feel them and then transform it

27:48

into something else the best way that they

27:50

can when they're ready to show up. If

27:56

you're a parent or share a

27:58

fridge with someone, Instacart is about to

28:00

make grocery shopping so much easier. Because

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28:24

Excludes restaurants. 250

28:26

donuts, 250

28:28

kitty cats, nope. More

28:30

like destroying 250 years

28:33

of secular democracy, honey. Without

28:35

gutting the rule of law, you

28:37

can't do that. Without shattering norms,

28:39

you can't do it. And you

28:42

also can't shatter that 250 years

28:44

of secular democracy without dropping a

28:46

few billion. The same people in

28:48

groups that backed Project 2025 are

28:50

part of a larger shadow network

28:52

that's a relentlessly pushing to impose

28:54

a Christian nationalist agenda on our

28:56

laws and lives. The wall between

28:58

church and state is the last

29:00

safeguard blocking their agenda. Civil rights

29:03

for LGBTQI plus people are on

29:05

the line. Rights for women on

29:07

the line and racial and religious

29:09

minorities. One of the places I

29:11

found hope in is organizations like

29:13

Americans United for separation of church.

29:15

state. They advocate for every individual's

29:17

right to believe and live as

29:19

you choose, so long as you

29:21

don't harm others. Americans United for

29:24

separation of church and state. When

29:26

America's divided, we are Americans United.

29:28

Learn more and join the fight

29:30

at au .org slash better. Community

29:33

has come up a lot. And I think

29:35

a lot of people, we do have like

29:37

a loneliness epidemic. People are so isolated. And

29:40

like I just I'm always talking about

29:42

Pilates on here. I love Pilates. I

29:44

love it too. And I just started going

29:46

back, but like it's overwhelming going to

29:48

like, anytime I've gone to like a new

29:50

class or a new meeting, like, you

29:53

know, 12 step program for like the first

29:55

time, it's always really overwhelming. So let's

29:57

say that like you go, you

29:59

find some people, you find like a group,

30:01

but maybe like You felt like it

30:03

was like really, like there was no joy. There

30:05

was no like expressing yourself. Like it maybe wasn't

30:07

your people or you experienced a setback. How do

30:09

you take care of yourself through a setback that's

30:12

not crafting? Ooh, that's a

30:14

good question. You

30:16

know, crafting is a legitimate one, but you already

30:18

went through big one. Yeah. Like just

30:20

like, like how do you sit with the disappointment? Um,

30:24

I was really anxious and kind of

30:26

socially anxious person, like. I take a lot

30:28

of things, I like to be liked,

30:30

so I take a lot of things personally

30:33

or I'll overthink a social situation. I

30:35

don't know how many times, like, I remember

30:37

there was this one, cool, I

30:39

don't want to give too many examples, but there was

30:41

an event in Los Angeles that I thought would be

30:43

really cool. And then everybody just seems

30:45

so much cooler than me, not. But they were

30:47

like burners. They weren't a burning man. I've never

30:49

been to burning man. And I just felt like

30:51

really out of it. I was like, I've never

30:54

done ayahuasca. So I left and I don't know.

30:56

It just made me feel more socially awkward and

30:58

anxious. But then when I talk to my friends

31:00

about it, like we all experience that and a

31:02

lot of my friends again are activists or entertainers

31:04

or whatever. And they experience it too. And that

31:06

makes me feel better. I think everybody can feel

31:08

a little socially anxious when they're not included in

31:10

something. And then I really just try my best

31:12

to find the spaces where I do feel held.

31:14

And again, I have like the same best that

31:16

I've had since middle school, the

31:18

same couple of friends from

31:20

college. And then I have like

31:22

one or two really good friends in the climate

31:25

movement and that's enough for me. And then also

31:27

just understanding some people won't be like those best,

31:29

best friends, but they might be acquaintances or you

31:31

can still be in community with them. But how

31:33

do I take care of myself? I

31:35

do a lot of crying and journaling. My

31:38

mom works in the mental health space. system.

31:40

Yeah, my support system. In your mom? Yeah,

31:42

my mom, she works in the mental health

31:44

space, so has never stigmatized mental health or

31:46

anything like that. We love her. So shout

31:48

out to Giselle. Yes, we love Giselle. Thanks

31:50

for raising a good one, queen. Thank you,

31:52

and shout out to my dad, Cameron, tennis

31:54

coach. Yes, we love. Oh my god, if

31:56

they have social, then they need to put that on

31:58

your social. Oh my god. Just a little, I got a

32:01

shout out for my daughter. Okay, wait,

32:03

but you just said something really important, which is,

32:05

your friends and your family. Yeah, honestly, it gets

32:07

down to that. And then people that I don't

32:09

talk about climate with, I think there's a lot

32:11

of people who assume I'm just like earth, like

32:13

all the time. But even when I'm with people

32:15

that work in the climate space, like I have

32:17

to remind myself, I'm more than that. I'm a

32:20

daughter. I'm a sister. I'm a friend.

32:22

There's all these roles. And there's also, you

32:24

know, occasional activist or writer, et cetera. But that's

32:26

just one part of my identity. And it

32:28

doesn't weigh more than like me being a daughter

32:30

or me being a friend. So I love

32:32

that. So kind of like. reorganizes

32:35

the stakes. Yeah, like so it's like it's

32:37

still your priority. It's still like what you love

32:39

to do and you're so passionate about it,

32:41

but it doesn't have to like take you out

32:43

if you have like a setback or a

32:45

disappointment. Oh, and then yeah, again, like I mentioned

32:47

earlier, like if I'm in a space and

32:49

I can just feel in my soul, like there's

32:51

something off here, or again, if I'm in

32:53

an activist space that's really built around shame, I

32:55

think shame is one of the worst motivators

32:57

to get people to act. I

32:59

sometimes exit from those situations where I know

33:01

like this isn't the space for me. There

33:03

are some people who are very shame -based

33:05

and motivated that way and that's where their

33:07

activism might thrive but it's not me. So

33:09

I think when people can really understand like

33:12

this is what I need to feel supported

33:14

in community and kind of just think about

33:16

it almost write down a list just like

33:18

if you're looking for a partner like this

33:20

is what I'm looking for in a community

33:22

space and then eventually you'll find it. Okay,

33:25

one more sad thing before our good stuff. What

33:27

should we be really paying attention to?

33:29

What are you paying attention to in this

33:31

Trump administration when it comes to environmentalism

33:33

and the intersection of racial equality? Okay,

33:35

so what should we be paying attention to? There's

33:38

going to be a serious lack

33:40

of funding that would help grassroots

33:43

organizations scale their solutions and improve

33:45

communities. So we'll have to rely

33:47

maybe on state funding and foundational

33:49

funding, but that will have devastating

33:51

impacts. It's hard to

33:53

even be joyful about this, but I

33:55

think we have to start preparing ourselves for

33:58

that. In addition, they're probably

34:00

attempting to bring back coal,

34:02

which is really irresponsible, instead of

34:04

just bringing back or creating

34:06

more green jobs to replace horrible

34:08

extractive industries. Also, we're probably

34:10

going to see, unfortunately, some national

34:12

parks and former... former park ranger

34:14

intern. I love parks, um,

34:17

but they're going to be probably closing

34:19

some of those down and logging

34:21

and bringing back these. Even

34:23

in like California, they're like all of

34:25

their public lands. Yeah. I think I'm

34:27

definitely going to be out there like

34:29

hugging trees and stuff, but it's, it's,

34:31

it's scary. We're seeing things. like

34:33

decades and decades ago, we had

34:35

really booming coal industries and logging,

34:37

et cetera. So that old wave

34:39

is probably going to come back.

34:41

So maybe more resistance is needed

34:43

to those sorts of things. Okay.

34:45

Fun stuff, solutions. I love solutions.

34:48

Um, how can we make sustainability

34:50

sexy and fun? We

34:52

can make it sexy by not always talking about

34:54

it, but just like subtly putting it in

34:56

there. Like if it's the only option that people

34:58

have. they're just going to be sustainable and

35:01

it's like oh cool so if an organ is

35:03

like a brand like for example yours people

35:05

have no choice but to shop sustainably and then

35:07

it's also cool and they enjoy it so

35:09

if you kind of just like get people into

35:11

it to the point where it's just like

35:13

a cool thing that's happening i feel like that's

35:15

how we make it sexy i do think

35:17

also cyber to that note with beauty at least

35:19

like there has been such this huge thing

35:22

on tiktok of like drugstore brand shampoos and conditioners

35:24

which go off but the amount of plastic

35:26

and waste it's outrageous and I mean it really

35:28

isn't so then companies that have like gone

35:30

out of their way to like prioritize aluminum prioritize

35:32

glass prioritize like better means of packaging their

35:34

material you want to show companies that are and

35:36

it's not even only mine there's a lot

35:38

but I just And also sidebar PSA silicones. I

35:40

don't like them. I just don't like them.

35:43

All you girls are like all about silicones now

35:45

on your TikTok. I see it, but you

35:47

should never need something so strong that you have

35:49

to strip your hair to get the silicones

35:51

off of it. And like when I strip, like

35:53

if I like do a detox on my

35:55

hair, it's not cute. It's like a fuzzy brillo

35:57

pad. So I don't like to do anything

35:59

that like requires a detox, which silicones do. Okay.

36:04

What can cities or communities do to make

36:06

the outdoors more inclusive and more healing

36:08

for all people? I

36:10

would say more

36:12

community gardens, getting people to

36:14

these community gardens. I think every

36:16

elementary school, middle school, high school students

36:19

should take a field trip to

36:21

their local community garden, maybe volunteer there,

36:23

plant trees, get outdoors. In

36:25

Los Angeles, where I am most of the

36:27

time, there's an organization called Chicas Verdes. It's

36:30

at a school called Manuel Arts High

36:32

School, which is a primarily, it's

36:34

primarily students of color, primarily

36:36

Latine. And they have an after school

36:38

program where the kids learn how to garden

36:40

and and cultivate their own food and like take

36:42

care of the land and things like that.

36:44

It's so beautiful. And I think we need more

36:46

programs like that because then it's just, they

36:48

establish a relationship with the earth. So thoughts about,

36:50

you know, harming the earth are like, why

36:53

would we, why would we do that? You know,

36:55

so that hands on. Activity gardening changed

36:57

my life like when we moved to Texas and

36:59

got like a garden Like I just felt so butt

37:01

-crazy and love with like trees and plants and food.

37:03

I just thought it was like so I still

37:05

do think it's like so amazing I think that's also

37:07

kind of a really fun kind of unexpected thing

37:09

for someone to do in like a smaller city It's

37:11

like how do I get involved? Like what do

37:13

I do like start a community garden? That's like such

37:15

a fun thing to do. Have you seen hydroponics?

37:17

No, okay. Oh my god hydroponics. Have you see okay,

37:20

so? I don't know

37:22

how to explain it. They're like vertical

37:24

gardens. Oh, yeah. Yes, yes. Yeah. So it's

37:26

like barely any soil and mostly water.

37:28

It's so easy and every rooftop in New

37:30

York could be a hydroponic garden. I

37:32

love it. So, you know, where I come

37:34

from when we talked about hydroponics. when

37:36

I was growing up, it was about weeds.

37:39

You know, valid, also a valid way

37:41

to grow the cannabis. Yeah,

37:43

it was like nice, like really strong. Is this hydro? I remember that

37:45

when I was like 17, you know, we were like, is this hydro? You'd

37:48

be like, yeah. And it's like tin foil,

37:50

like on the Mississippi River, you're like, okay, I'm

37:52

sure it is. What are

37:54

three sustainability hacks we can

37:56

do on a daily basis? Three

37:58

sustainability hacks. Okay, get

38:00

some mason jars, get some

38:02

jars. I don't care what jars you get, get

38:04

some jars because you're going to say, a lot

38:06

of plastic if you always have jars and you're

38:09

putting your drinks in jars and I don't know

38:11

glass in my opinion is just better than plastic

38:13

containers because there's no like seeping. I

38:15

don't want the credit card in my brain.

38:17

It's just scary. And I read something that apparently

38:19

like 0 .5 % of our brains are now

38:21

like plastic. Yeah I saw that. Like microphones. We're

38:23

literally drinking like a credit card a week.

38:25

Oh my god it's crazy. Yeah it's absolutely insane.

38:27

That makes sense. Yeah so jars I'm gonna

38:30

say that I know it's like OG sustainability stuff

38:32

but you will save a lot and not. I

38:34

don't know, waste as much if you have a bunch of jars. And

38:37

then find your

38:39

local environmental justice organization.

38:42

They're there. I honestly, the only reason

38:44

I'm a climate optimist is because I

38:46

believe we have the solutions to the

38:48

problems that we're facing. There's like somebody

38:50

in your neighborhood who has the solution.

38:52

We just need resources, amplification and support

38:55

for them. So find out who they

38:57

are. And then in addition to that

38:59

environmental organization, find your local community garden

39:01

because they're there. They're probably growing. some

39:03

stuff. It could be hydroponic cannabis or

39:05

it could be carrots. I

39:07

love carrots and weed.

39:10

I love both of those things. I

39:12

mean, they're amazing. They're great for you. Also,

39:14

just like, would you say that like consuming

39:16

less is another sustainability hack? Yes. Because I

39:18

really have ever since we've been in our

39:20

like Marky and I have just been like

39:23

trying to cook more at home, and I

39:25

do feel like that like makes less waste.

39:27

It's true. Yeah, consuming less. My

39:29

New Year's resolution was to ask myself, can

39:31

I make this before I buy it? And

39:33

it's honestly changed my life. Like I found

39:35

out how to make like all of my

39:37

skincare for the most part. I can make

39:39

makeup, even just cooking at home. It saves

39:41

me money, which has been amazing, especially right

39:43

now. We might enter this like... So

39:47

yeah, ask yourself, can I make this before you

39:49

buy it? I'm trying to make a Birken. You're

39:51

so funny. I mean, I don't want to

39:53

kill a little cow. And I don't

39:55

want to be a leather smith. And I don't want to sew

39:58

through that. Right? And I don't

40:00

want to put that black oil stuff on the top

40:02

of it either. Right? So I can't make that.

40:04

I can't make the Birken. So there's like a couple

40:06

things where I'm like, OK. have campus ones. They

40:08

have campus ones. Yeah. OK, we can make a campus

40:10

Birken. Yeah. Now I have to do that. Yeah,

40:12

they do have leather on the top. Okay. Let me

40:14

try to make like a, I'll make a bag.

40:16

It won't be a Birkin, but I'll make a bag

40:18

and I'll take it. Finland and I met this

40:20

lady and she taught, she like has, she makes like

40:22

reindeer like leather and she does it like all

40:24

herself and she's like a little sustainable reindeer queen. Really?

40:27

Yeah. And because I don't know what it is

40:29

about Finnish that makes them want to say

40:31

like, excuse me. Um, like in

40:33

terms, like, like this lady would

40:35

be like, excuse me, Mary. That's my mom. Excuse me,

40:37

but I'd be like, Oh, are we in trouble?

40:39

But that's just like how she said, like, that just.

40:41

Every time she got into a conversation, she just,

40:43

excuse me. It's cute. like

40:45

a little finished thing. Um,

40:49

ah, I mean, honey, it's

40:51

our last question. I'm sad, but I had

40:53

the most fun, but it's our last one, which

40:55

is this. What's your advice to someone who

40:57

wants to join the movement, but doesn't know where

40:59

to begin? So there's a website called catch

41:01

a fire. I think they're still. up

41:03

and basically nonprofits just post like hey we're

41:05

looking for someone to help us like if you're

41:07

a marketer can you review our marketing plan

41:09

or if you know how to make graphics can

41:12

you make graphics for us or things like

41:14

that if like that's a great place to start

41:16

or again like I mentioned earlier like think

41:18

about okay what am I naturally good at so

41:20

whatever that is whether you're an accountant chef

41:22

whatever whatever it is and then apply that to

41:24

the movements that you care about so catch

41:26

a fire is a great place to start as

41:28

a website it's basically like a jobs board

41:30

a bunch of nonprofits are like we need this

41:33

We need this we need this and then

41:35

you find it you can like match with them

41:37

almost like a dating app and then just

41:39

Give them your skills one thing about your platform

41:41

that I love how you use it is

41:43

it does it targets like people in different ages

41:45

like different points in their lives and you

41:47

obviously have such an earpiece with like young people

41:49

is there anything about like that parents or

41:51

Gen Zs or boomers could do better if they

41:54

have a kid that's my age or your

41:56

age or someone who's really into climate activism and

41:58

they're just not getting it? Yes.

42:01

Something that was really frustrating, I was

42:03

talking to a government official. He was

42:05

basically like... I don't understand why these

42:07

kids have anxiety. Like we had it

42:09

so much tougher. Like why does everybody

42:12

have climate anxiety? And I think it's

42:14

really important for older generations to validate

42:16

the experiences of the younger folks because

42:18

they didn't live through a pandemic and

42:20

their youth that disrupted, you know, their

42:22

school system. They didn't grow up like

42:24

Greta and those kids who basically were

42:26

watching documentaries like Al Gore's an inconvenient

42:29

truth and being told you can't have

42:31

kids. The world's on fire. You don't

42:33

have a future. Of course they're going

42:35

to. have anxiety and of course things

42:37

are different. So I think validating the

42:39

emotions of younger folks is really, really

42:41

important. Don't dismiss it and don't say

42:43

like, oh, well we had it worse

42:46

because yes, in some ways, but we're

42:48

also in new territory, like the climate

42:50

crisis. also like, I'm sorry, your four

42:52

year degree and like a house in

42:54

like 1974 was like $345. Right?

42:57

So it was not with inflation, like what ours is,

42:59

you know, like they actually had like a reasonable

43:01

expectation of like, of upward economic mobility, like. you

43:03

if you worked hard and you got that

43:05

job and you got your like you could and

43:08

now it's like even if you work hard

43:10

even if you get the funding, can you pay

43:12

off your student, like can you pay off

43:14

your student loans? Can, like ever, like

43:16

there - I still haven't paid mine off. Like I

43:18

don't want to. Yeah, like fuck

43:20

those people. Unless you come

43:22

into a whole bunch of money and just like get rid

43:24

of it. Yeah. Cause then you can just get rid of

43:26

it. Then I can just get rid of it. would feel

43:28

so nice. It would feel really nice. And it's a burden

43:30

that even I carry and I'm like, should I pay this

43:32

off or should I save? Like I feel like I got

43:34

to save right now. Who knows, but - What would Tori Dunlap

43:36

say? Do you follow the financial feminist? No. I'm obsessed with

43:39

her. We also have her on the pod. I'm obsessed with

43:41

her. You should follow her financial

43:43

feminist. Her thing is like three months of

43:45

emergency funds. I need that. Um, then I

43:47

think you start paying off your debt. Okay.

43:49

That sounds good. You have to have

43:52

your like emergency funds savings. Yes. Yes. Okay.

43:54

And you should also be having an

43:56

IRA or a 401k by now. I got

43:58

one. Yes. Years ago. I don't want

44:00

to look though now. You don't really like

44:02

anything. No, it's really, my husband looked

44:04

in. Wish we hadn't.

44:06

I won't. It's so fun. It's

44:08

fucking, big fucking orange of shit.

44:10

I hate it. I too, just,

44:12

you know, I realize one of

44:14

Um, no, it's true. And you know what

44:16

so I said, in my say that, which is really funny, it's

44:18

like, if your husband can get $2 billion from Saudi Arabia and that's

44:20

the best your extensions can look, you

44:23

know, I mean, there's 2 billion from Saudi

44:25

Arabia and that's the best Ivanka's hair can look.

44:27

And for someone who to talk about biology, all

44:29

the time like just embrace your frog fur.

44:31

Just embrace that. hairs And they're working

44:33

hard Ivanka. Wow, Wow.

44:35

but wait, here's the thing. I

44:37

feel so inspired from spending time with

44:39

you. I I do. I've never heard someone

44:41

say climate optimist. you're my first, I

44:43

think that's so beautiful and as much work

44:45

as there is to do and as

44:47

much anxiety as there is for us to

44:49

sit with, I do feel really inspired

44:51

by leaders like you that are doing this

44:53

good of work and I just can't

44:55

wait to keep cheering you on and you

44:57

and just seeing what you do, Queens.

44:59

I'm just loving you. Thank you. Thank you

45:02

for having me. course, these for coming

45:04

on in Earth Month, Queen. Happy Earth Month.

45:06

Yes, we love you, honey.