0:03

Welcome to Global Dispatches, a

0:05

podcast for the foreign policy and

0:07

global development communities and anyone

0:09

who wants a deeper understanding of

0:11

what is driving events in

0:13

the world today. I'm your

0:15

host, Mark Leon Goldberg. I

0:17

am a veteran international affairs journalist

0:20

and the editor of UN

0:22

Dispatch. Enjoy the show. The

0:34

crisis in Sudan has taken

0:37

another devastating turn. A

0:39

genocidal paramilitary group known as

0:41

the Rapid Support Forces has attacked

0:43

a sprawling refugee camp in

0:45

Darfur. Nearly 400 ,000 people

0:48

have fled the camp and are now

0:50

traversing the desert in search of

0:52

safety. Meanwhile, the RSF

0:54

is mounting an offensive on the last

0:56

major city in Darfur, not under

0:58

its control. This escalation

1:00

comes as the world rather

1:02

quietly marked the second anniversary

1:04

of Sudan's civil war. In

1:07

April 2022, rival

1:09

generals vied for control of the country,

1:11

plunging it into chaos. Two

1:13

years on, Sudan has become

1:15

the world's largest humanitarian crisis, with

1:17

over 12 million people forcibly

1:20

displaced from their homes. One

1:23

of them is Dalia Abdelmonaim. She

1:25

fled her home in Khartoum shortly after

1:27

the war began and is now

1:29

living in Cairo. She joins

1:31

me for a conversation about the

1:33

unfolding catastrophe in Sudan. We

1:36

begin by discussing the dire situation

1:38

in Darfur and move into a

1:40

wide -raging conversation about the broader dynamics

1:42

of the conflict, including the possibility

1:45

that Sudan is headed towards a

1:47

de facto partition, with the

1:49

RSF controlling Darfur in the west and

1:51

the Sudanese armed forces holding Khartoum in

1:53

much of the south of the east.

1:56

We recorded our conversation

1:58

live using Substack. If

2:01

you'd like to join one of

2:03

these live conversations as it's happening, please

2:05

become a subscriber at globaldispatches .org. Thank

2:07

you. And now here is

2:10

my conversation with Dalia Abdul Monaym.

2:14

Hi, I'm Dalia Abdul

2:16

Monaym. I'm a Sudanese activist

2:18

in civil society. I

2:20

am one of the many millions

2:22

who had to flee my home country

2:25

when war broke out and I'm

2:27

currently based in Cairo and I'm more

2:29

than happy to join today's episode. So,

2:31

Dalia, just to give maybe some

2:34

context from where you're coming from.

2:36

So, you were in Khartoum when

2:38

the war broke out now two

2:40

years ago. We're speaking near the

2:42

anniversary of the outbreak of the

2:44

conflict. Can you just explain the

2:46

process, like how you made it out

2:48

and why you felt you needed to

2:51

leave. I,

2:53

okay, I initially had no intention

2:55

of leaving. I honestly believed and

2:57

thought it would be over in

2:59

a few days. We just have

3:01

to ride out the storm, so

3:03

to speak. But our

3:05

house was hit by a

3:07

missile and that rendered our house,

3:09

our home, as no longer safe.

3:12

And when I say our, it

3:14

was me. and my immediate

3:16

family were around, over around five,

3:18

six people in the house. And

3:21

so we had

3:23

to find safety. And

3:26

so we moved to the

3:28

outskirts of Khartoum within day

3:30

five of the war. And

3:33

it took us around two

3:35

days to reach the eastern region

3:37

of Sudan, Port Sudan, which

3:39

is now the de facto capital.

3:43

And by the first

3:45

week of May, we

3:47

had managed very luckily to find

3:49

a way to leave Sudan, simply

3:52

because the foreign

3:55

nationals were being told to

3:57

evacuate by their embassies.

3:59

That's when we knew we all had

4:01

to leave. Those who could and

4:04

can should leave. And

4:06

like I said, I'm one of the very fortunate ones

4:08

that we were able to do that. We were able

4:10

to... to find a bus

4:12

to take us out of Cartoon to

4:14

Port Sudan. We managed to find

4:16

seats for myself and my elderly mother

4:19

on a flight that took us

4:21

to Cairo, which is where I'm currently

4:23

based. And

4:25

it's been two years

4:27

of absolute turmoil and

4:30

it hangs heavy

4:32

on our hearts simply

4:34

because... also the guilt factor

4:36

that we managed, we got out,

4:38

we're safe, but millions of others

4:40

didn't and they're still stuck in

4:42

this, you know, never ending cycle

4:44

of violence, of war and conflict.

4:47

And so yeah, I now

4:50

work in civic society and

4:52

advocacy for Sudan. And

4:54

that was never my background. Actually,

4:56

I had my own small baking

4:58

business. I was making cakes and

5:00

cookies. That was my thing. but

5:03

I switched, I pivoted simply

5:05

because I realized voices Sudanese

5:07

voices are very hard, very

5:09

rare, we're a small circle

5:11

and we need to continuously

5:13

talk about Sudan, advocate for

5:15

Sudan and just post about

5:17

Sudan because no one else

5:20

will. Well, thank you

5:22

for sharing that story because, you

5:24

know, we in the media

5:26

often refer to Sudan as the

5:28

world's largest humanitarian crisis, and

5:30

we, you know, cite the number

5:32

of 12 million people displaced,

5:34

but, you know... each one of

5:36

those displacements is an individual story

5:38

so thank you for for

5:40

sharing yours. So you

5:43

know we are speaking near

5:45

the anniversary of the outbreak of

5:47

Sudan's civil war just to

5:49

give listeners and viewers some really

5:51

brief background, you know, the

5:54

conflict erupted essentially as the consequence

5:56

of a failed democratic transition

5:58

that resulted in two rival generals

6:00

vying for power over the country,

6:02

the head of the Sudanese

6:04

armed forces, General Burhan on one

6:07

side, and the head of

6:09

the paramilitary rapid support forces, Hamdan

6:11

Dagalo, better known as Hamed

6:13

T. The conflict has evolved in

6:15

ways that you and I are sure

6:17

to discuss over the course of the last

6:19

two years. But the way

6:21

things stand now is that

6:23

there's fighting in many places, but

6:25

for the most part, the

6:27

Sudanese armed forces led by General

6:30

Burhan control much of Khartoum and

6:32

much of the east of

6:34

the country, whereas the RSF

6:36

controls much, but not all,

6:38

of the west of the

6:40

country, Indarfur. And that's

6:42

where I wanted to pick up

6:44

our conversation today, because over

6:46

the last few days even, there

6:49

has been a profound escalation

6:51

of the conflict and of the

6:53

humanitarian crisis in Darfur. Can

6:55

you just briefly explain and to

6:57

viewers what has been happening

6:59

around Zamzam, a big refugee

7:01

camp? What is Zamzam? And just

7:04

kind of explain the dynamics

7:06

there because this is one of

7:08

the most urgent situations right

7:10

now in Sudan. I'll

7:13

start off by saying the people

7:15

of Darfur are the most vulnerable

7:17

group of people in Sudan. simply

7:19

because they already went through a

7:22

war back in 2003, the war

7:24

in Darfur. And a lot

7:26

of those people who were displaced, who were made

7:28

refugees and so on, were housed

7:30

in these camps, Zemzem

7:33

being one of them. And now

7:35

what's happening, and Zemzem is in the

7:37

northern part, Darfur is a huge region,

7:39

it's divided into four, northwest and east

7:41

and so on. El Fashir

7:43

is the capital of North Darfur,

7:45

which is where Zamzam Camp is. And

7:48

the El Fashir city is

7:50

one of the few remaining cities

7:52

and areas in Darfur, not

7:54

under the control of the

7:56

RSF. Now, the RSF

7:58

have been renamed, but

8:01

their origins are the Genjuid,

8:04

the perpetrators of the genocide

8:06

in Darfur back in

8:08

2003. And so they have

8:10

a new name and they have a new

8:12

look and they're a militia. They're a

8:14

militia for hire because they also fought for

8:16

the UAE and Saudi in Yemen and

8:18

they also fought in Libya. So

8:20

this is what the RSA is. What's

8:22

happening now is that Zamzam

8:25

camp was housing nearly

8:27

a million displaced Darfurians.

8:32

Until yesterday, more than

8:34

400 ,000 had fled. to

8:36

safety. In a matter

8:39

of 48 hours, the

8:41

RSF has massacred more than

8:43

400 civilians. Like I

8:45

said, these civilians are the most vulnerable.

8:47

They have nothing. They

8:49

are living in a camp

8:51

that is reliant on aid

8:53

and humanitarian assistance from aid

8:55

agencies and from local volunteer

8:57

groups. reading

9:02

reports and it is

9:04

mixed for the most

9:07

harrowing of reads because

9:09

there's also ethnic divisions in

9:12

Darfur based on your tribe. So

9:15

you have tribes that are of African background

9:17

and you have tribes that are of Arab

9:19

background. They're all Muslim

9:21

but their ethnicity is something that

9:23

is used as a weapon

9:25

against them and the RSF is

9:28

mainly made up of the

9:30

Arab groups. And

9:32

so they are

9:35

basically massacring and committing

9:37

atrocities against the

9:39

majority of the African

9:41

civilians, African of African

9:43

background civilians. end of the day. Yeah,

9:46

I mean, it's just worth

9:48

maybe pointing out that many

9:50

experts in mass atrocity and

9:52

genocide have concluded that what

9:55

the RSF is doing against

9:57

ethnic Africans, the Mausoleum in

9:59

particular, amounts to genocide.

10:01

This was a declaration of

10:03

determination that the outgoing Biden

10:05

administration made. So this is

10:07

a conflict just mired in ethnic

10:09

atrocity. And I just want to go

10:11

back to something you said a

10:13

moment ago, because you had know,

10:16

you said about a million people

10:18

in these camps around El Fasher, the

10:20

largest city in North Darfur in

10:22

the one area still under the control

10:24

of the Sudanese armed forces. The

10:27

RSF has, over the last several days,

10:29

attacked this camp, and you said

10:31

something like 400 ,000 people are

10:33

now on the move. That

10:35

is just in the context. of

10:37

displacement crises. That

10:40

is an astronomical

10:42

number. Where

10:44

are these people going? Across

10:47

the desert to wherever they can

10:49

find safety. I mean

10:51

already nine aid workers who

10:53

were part of the relief. aid

10:55

organization were killed by the

10:57

RSF, including the head of

11:00

the one of the few

11:02

health clinics that were operating. So

11:04

they are targeting the most

11:06

vulnerable. They are targeting those who

11:08

are providing help and assistance to

11:11

the to the most vulnerable and

11:13

they're doing it with the absolute

11:15

sense of they can get away

11:17

with it because accountability and justice

11:20

has never been brought to

11:22

the forefront. And

11:24

when I say accountability and

11:26

justice, because what happened back

11:28

in 2003 was never, you know,

11:30

those who perpetrated all those violent acts

11:32

were never brought to justice. And

11:34

so this is a repeat. It's a

11:36

repeat of what happened 20 years

11:39

ago. And it kills me because the

11:41

people of Darfur don't deserve this. They are

11:43

under the day. They are civilians. They

11:45

are farmers. They are people who just want

11:47

to live in safety. And

11:49

we just had the conference in

11:51

London. And the final

11:53

statement that was released at the

11:55

end of the conference did not

11:57

even mention al -Fasher. Did

11:59

not even mention what was happening to

12:01

these civilians. These are civilians.

12:04

These are not armed combatants. These

12:06

are not armed militias. They

12:08

are just women, men, elderly, and

12:10

children. There was a report,

12:12

which I don't know if it was

12:14

confirmed, but that the RSF was massacring

12:16

children and then was going to the

12:18

mothers and telling them, We

12:21

are now your men you are

12:23

ours as in you know,

12:25

so there's ethnic cleansing Because they

12:27

are targeting this you know a certain

12:29

this are targeting the men and

12:32

the boys and there's genocide because a

12:34

certain certain groups are being targeted

12:36

simply based on their race and for

12:38

them to be completely eradicated and

12:40

There's no outcry. I mean Honestly,

12:43

I'm sick and tired of reading

12:46

all these statements by, you know,

12:48

we condemn what is happening. Your

12:50

condemnation does nothing. You know,

12:52

I can condemn until the moon

12:54

turns blue, but what will my condemnation

12:56

need? I need more action. I

12:58

need penalties. I need there to

13:01

be, you know, to

13:03

implement the arms embargo that has

13:05

been in place in Darfur

13:07

since... more than 20 years implemented

13:09

you know penalize those the

13:11

countries that continuously violate this embargo

13:13

and continuously supply both armies

13:15

with weapons, weapons which are used

13:17

against the civilians. Like, end

13:19

of the day, this is a

13:21

war on civilians. This is

13:23

something that people need to understand.

13:26

So it's not a war over territory. It's

13:28

a war on civilians. So I

13:30

actually do want to get

13:32

back later in this conversation

13:35

to policy options that exist

13:37

to reduce the levels of

13:39

violence, if not try to

13:41

impose or get to some

13:43

sort of ceasefire. But I

13:45

do want to ask you

13:47

before that, about a significant

13:49

recent political development as well.

13:52

In tandem with the

13:54

RSF's attacks on

13:56

this massive refugee camp and

13:59

its attempt to capture the

14:01

last remaining city in North

14:03

Darfur, not under its

14:05

control, El Fasher, the

14:07

RSF has declared itself

14:09

to be some sort

14:12

of government as well.

14:14

Can you just explain

14:16

what happened there? What

14:18

was that declaration? And

14:21

what kind of broader

14:23

diplomatic or international significance

14:25

do you see it

14:27

having? What

14:30

happened was that there was

14:32

the civilian bloc made of

14:34

political parties and armed groups

14:36

and civic society groups that

14:38

was under the banner, the

14:40

umbrella of taqadum, which means

14:42

forward. That group,

14:44

that entity split into two. those

14:47

who decided to join

14:49

the RSF's parallel

14:51

government. Now, this

14:53

government is supposedly, they promise

14:55

that they will deliver a

14:57

civilian -led government to rule

15:00

over the areas that they will be

15:02

under control. While they've

15:04

declared this government, the

15:06

RSF forces are massacring civilians. So where

15:08

is the protection of civilians that

15:10

you've been promising for so long? And

15:13

in regards to the international impact,

15:16

I'm waiting to see if

15:18

any country will recognize

15:20

this parallel government. So

15:22

far, if I'm not mistaken, several

15:24

Arab countries, the United States,

15:26

and several other Western nations have

15:28

said that we will not

15:30

recognize it. So how will they

15:32

operate? And

15:34

the day the RSF is

15:36

a very rich army military,

15:39

simply because of the

15:41

business operations of

15:43

the Dagalov family. and

15:45

the fact that they control some

15:47

of the largest gold mines in

15:49

Sudan and the smuggling of gold

15:51

has never stopped from day one

15:54

since the war broke out and

15:56

even before then and that is

15:58

how they're financing this war by

16:01

smuggling gold out of Sudan into

16:03

the likes of countries such as

16:05

the United Arab Emirates which is

16:07

also a supporter of the RSF.

16:10

And then you have SAF on

16:12

the other side that is supported

16:14

by the likes of Egypt and

16:16

Saudi Arabia and Qatar. So

16:18

it's just, it's

16:21

a mix and, but even

16:23

I have, the United Arab Emirates has

16:25

not said anything regarding this new

16:27

parallel government and they cannot come out

16:29

and say that we support them

16:31

or recognize them because that will not,

16:33

you know, bode well for them.

16:36

But I don't see, I think the,

16:38

it may give them some

16:40

for the RSF is seeking

16:42

legitimacy and this government they be

16:44

maybe they believe they will

16:46

get them that legitimacy but

16:48

how so unless they win

16:51

this war outright or

16:53

unless by de facto the the the

16:55

western region of Sudan is you know

16:57

partitioned and then they if they control

16:59

or if they gain control of al

17:01

-Fashir they will have control over the

17:03

whole western region of Sudan yeah now

17:05

that's the size of Spain The

17:08

whole Darfur region is the size of Spain.

17:10

So you're talking about the size of a

17:12

whole European country. And that

17:15

is one scenario that we have

17:17

to think about. That's actually what

17:20

could happen. Yeah, well, that's what

17:22

I wanted to ask you. Over

17:24

recent weeks

17:26

and months, You

17:28

know, you have this ongoing battle

17:31

in Elfosher. You know, if

17:33

Elfosher falls to the RSF, you

17:35

will essentially have a geographic

17:37

divide between territory controlled by the

17:39

RSF and territory controlled by

17:41

the Sudanese armed forces. And

17:44

that kind of raises

17:46

the prospect of a potential

17:48

partition of Sudan more

17:50

or less along these battle

17:52

lines. Again, with like the

17:54

Sudanese armed forces controlling Khartoum

17:56

and Port Sudan and parts

17:58

of the South with the RSF

18:01

controlling the West in

18:03

Darfur. To what

18:05

extent is that scenario

18:07

possible, imaginable, and what

18:09

impact might it have? There's

18:12

one important fact that we

18:15

all need to consider. Staff

18:17

has - When you say staff, you're referring

18:19

to the Sudanese Armed Forces? The Sudanese

18:21

Armed Forces. They have alliances

18:24

with other - armies

18:26

and militias, they're called

18:28

the joint forces. Now

18:30

these joint forces, will they be

18:33

okay with the fact that, you know,

18:35

al -Fasheer can fall and be under

18:37

the control of the RSF? No,

18:39

because this is their territory as well.

18:42

So what's happening right now

18:44

is there has been a

18:46

call made for more fighters

18:48

to join SAF and its

18:50

joint forces to fight and

18:52

save al -Fasheer from the RSF.

18:54

Now, that will be the next battle.

18:57

But if a fashion falls, then by

18:59

de facto, there will be

19:01

a partitioning of the country.

19:03

And it also goes back to,

19:05

will staff be willing to

19:07

fight for Darfur? Or will they

19:09

be happy to have in

19:11

their own control central, eastern, northern

19:13

Sudan? Will they be happy

19:15

with that? Or will they have

19:17

the momentum that they've gained

19:20

over the past few months and

19:22

push on and fight and

19:24

try to defeat the RSF in

19:26

the Western region? but

19:28

that goes back to what

19:30

staff, if staff wants to

19:32

do that or not. Yeah.

19:34

Well, can I ask you

19:37

a question? As someone, and

19:39

I'm presuming here that your

19:41

top concern is the safety

19:43

of Sudanese people from harm,

19:45

the ability to get aid

19:48

in, and the ability of

19:50

like a restoration of some

19:52

sort of reduction of violence,

19:54

is a potential partition scenario

19:56

one which potentially over the

19:58

medium term might result in

20:01

a reduction of violence and

20:03

a relative increase of individual

20:05

safety for Sudanese. You're shaking

20:07

your head no. No, no,

20:09

absolutely not. Simply because I

20:12

know the RSF will move

20:14

into this. absolute

20:16

stream of violence and

20:18

just committing atrocities left, right

20:20

and center. I have

20:23

little faith in the RSF

20:25

actually protecting civilians in

20:27

any shape or form. And

20:29

at the same time, we're

20:31

getting all these reports of... Even

20:33

in the areas that have

20:35

been recaptured by SAF, there has

20:37

been retaliation against those they

20:40

deem as collaborators with the RSF

20:42

or those who they deem

20:44

as someone who is more pro

20:46

-RSF and not SAF. So

20:48

the fallout will always be

20:50

on the civilians. So

20:53

protection of

20:55

civilians, us in civil

20:57

society have been bringing it up and

20:59

talking about it. But it fell

21:01

on deaf ears. No one wanted to

21:03

hear about what measures needed to

21:06

be put in place to ensure the

21:08

protection of civilians. We couldn't even

21:10

get people to agree on the creation

21:12

of safe zones. And when

21:14

we say safe zones, we're talking

21:16

about hospitals not being hit, marketplaces

21:18

not being hit, schools, churches, mosques.

21:21

No one wanted to hear that. So

21:23

the protection of civilians is

21:26

seen as... low on the hierarchy

21:28

you know the loss of

21:30

lives is just collateral damage to

21:32

both armies that's something that

21:34

needs to be you know set

21:36

out you know people need

21:38

to understand that people are collateral

21:40

damage and in the day

21:42

this is a game that's that's

21:44

come down to power who

21:46

is the stronger and who will

21:48

last the longest and yeah

21:50

i i mean Yeah. So

21:52

earlier you referred to

21:55

a London conference that just

21:57

concluded this week focused

21:59

on Sudan that sought to

22:01

raise some money for

22:04

the humanitarian response and sought

22:06

to inject some amount

22:08

of political momentum around international

22:10

diplomacy around a peace

22:12

deal or some sort of

22:15

reduction of violence. It

22:17

delivered very little on both

22:19

fronts. explain

22:21

what happened at that conference

22:23

and more broadly what

22:25

can the international community do

22:27

now to try to

22:29

reduce violence. I mean you

22:32

alluded earlier to the

22:34

fact that while this is

22:36

a civil war there

22:38

are external backers of both

22:40

sides the UAE backing

22:42

the RSF primarily Egypt backing

22:44

the Sudanese armed forces. How

22:49

can international pressure potentially

22:51

be brought to try

22:53

to reduce levels of

22:55

violence at this point?

22:59

Very little simply because

23:02

there's no incentive for

23:04

any. international

23:06

community member to apply pressure

23:08

on either the UAE

23:10

or Egypt or Saudi or

23:12

Iran even. There is

23:15

no incentive simply because their

23:17

interests, their own interests

23:19

as countries supersede the interests

23:21

of protecting civilians or

23:23

ending this war. Don't

23:25

forget wars are very lucrative businesses.

23:28

for some certain groups it's it's

23:30

a major money -making business so when

23:32

you have countries like Iran and

23:35

China and Turkey and Belarusia and

23:37

Russia and Egypt providing and the

23:39

UAE providing and selling arms it's

23:41

a big business for them so

23:43

they're selling their interest to end

23:45

this war and at the same

23:47

time I remember last

23:50

September when there was a

23:52

General Assembly meeting in the

23:54

United Nations, and Mohammed bin

23:56

Zayed, the UAE ruler, met

23:58

with President Biden. It

24:01

was a golden opportunity to

24:03

push the UAE in regards

24:05

to their support for the

24:07

RSF. The statement

24:09

that was released was basically...

24:11

forward better relations, but the security

24:14

relations, but their economic interest

24:16

relations between the United States and

24:18

the UAE. So no pressure

24:20

was applied on the UAE. Same

24:22

thing with this conference. You

24:25

know, I understand that they did

24:27

not invite neither the RSF nor

24:29

SAF, but they couldn't even at

24:31

the London conference, there was disagreement

24:33

between Egypt, Saudi and the UAE

24:35

on what the final statement would

24:37

say. Egypt and Saudi

24:39

were pushing for the Basically,

24:42

the protection of state institutions,

24:44

i .e., the army, the

24:46

UAE was against this. They were

24:48

saying, no, civilian

24:50

institutions, which means they're pushing

24:52

for the civilian aspect.

24:55

Who are the civilians? The

24:57

new parallel government that

24:59

was announced in Cahoots with

25:01

the RSF. So if

25:03

you can't even agree on a statement, and

25:06

no pressure is being applied

25:09

to you, by other actors in

25:11

the international arena. Yeah,

25:14

I mean, you know,

25:16

like the key international players

25:19

here, you know, the

25:21

UAE and Egypt primarily are

25:23

both countries with deep

25:25

security relationships with the United

25:27

States. The Biden administration,

25:30

you know, like, tried a little

25:32

bit, but was distracted, in my

25:34

view, all the way by other

25:36

things, by the conflict in Gaza

25:38

in particular, where they needed both

25:40

UAE and Egypt's support. And so,

25:43

in my view, they never pressed

25:45

too hard on Sudan. It was

25:47

never much of a priority. I

25:49

can only imagine that

25:51

that kind of has dropped

25:53

even further in the

25:55

context of the Trump administration

25:57

which I imagine is

26:00

doing much of anything right now. I

26:02

mean, we're in the process of freezing

26:04

foreign aid and closing down our embassies

26:06

around the world, let alone engaging in

26:08

trying to resolve a conflict like this.

26:10

And that kind of brings me back

26:12

to something that I know a friend

26:14

of yours, Houloud Khair, told

26:16

me in the first interview I did

26:19

about the Sudanese armed conflict, civil war

26:21

a few years ago, that Sudan is

26:23

just dying from neglect. And

26:25

it seems that that neglect

26:27

has become even more pronounced

26:29

as this conflict drags on. I

26:32

mean, I understand your point about

26:34

Biden being, you know, looking into

26:36

Gaza, but Gaza happened occurred in

26:39

October. Our war broke out in

26:41

April. Yeah. So there's a

26:43

month in between when nothing was being

26:45

done. Even the Jeddah talks were just

26:47

half -hearted talks. Yeah. Unfortunately,

26:50

I completely agree with Khulud

26:52

in that sense. It isn't. It's

26:54

neglected. But at the same time,

26:56

it's neglected. that

26:58

that neglect will come at a

27:00

very hefty cost geopolitically if you

27:03

look at Sudan where we're located

27:05

you know access to the Red

27:07

Sea you know access into Central

27:09

and Western Africa the Nile you

27:11

know runs through Sudan we border

27:13

nine countries seven countries the

27:15

fallout of this war will be

27:17

huge. And by that, and that will

27:19

happen simply because if you look

27:22

at our neighbors, what's happening in South

27:24

Sudan, what's happening in Ethiopia, what's

27:26

happening in Chad, they're

27:29

vulnerable states. You know,

27:31

they're not stable states at

27:33

this moment in time. And

27:35

the fallout from this war,

27:37

because what happens, people cross over

27:39

into borders. And then... let's

27:41

say war erupts in south sudan

27:43

where will the people in south sudan

27:45

go go to sudan which is

27:47

you know so sudan is being neglected

27:49

absolutely but that neglect will come

27:51

at a very heavy cost you know

27:53

and we've been saying this you

27:56

know you in a way like they

27:58

say you need to nip it

28:00

in the bud from the beginning it

28:02

needs to be nipped in and

28:04

it wasn't it was allowed to

28:06

continue and I can't envision

28:09

any chance of any negotiations

28:11

or peace talks being held

28:13

or actually being applicable at

28:15

this moment in time because

28:17

both armies are fully intent

28:19

on crushing the other one.

28:22

And like I said, there's no outside

28:24

actor really wants to step in and

28:26

do something about it. Like I said,

28:28

we get a lot of nice words,

28:31

we get a lot of nice statements,

28:33

but no action. You know, talk

28:35

is cheap. I can say

28:37

a lot of things, but what

28:39

are you doing about it? How

28:41

are you making sure that the

28:43

UAE does not supply arms to

28:45

the RSF? How are you ensuring

28:47

that the Sudanese army does not

28:49

continue with its bombings of civilian

28:51

areas and killing hundreds of people?

28:53

How can you guarantee that civilians

28:55

are protected by both sides? How

28:57

can you know if the army

28:59

itself is holding up aid deliveries?

29:02

you know, through bureaucratic and,

29:04

you know, technical obstacles. No

29:07

one is applying pressure to either side

29:09

and they're getting away with it. End

29:12

of the day. This is what's happening.

29:15

Well, Dahlia, thank you so much for your time.

29:17

I sincerely hope that someday soon you'll be able

29:19

to go back to Cartoon and reopen your bakery. But

29:22

thank you. Thank you so

29:24

much. I appreciate it. And thank

29:26

you everyone for joining this live

29:28

stream. Thank you

29:30

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29:32

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