0:00

while Australia has been focused on an election

0:02

and the world has been transfixed

0:04

by Trump, something quite

0:06

curious has been happening right on our

0:08

doorstep. Yes, Jerry. So we reckon we

0:11

cannot let another week go by without

0:13

talking about Russia and our biggest neighbour,

0:15

Indonesia. It sent more than a ripple

0:17

through the region when reports suggested Russia

0:20

was seeking to base some of their

0:22

military aircraft in Papua. Now, why would

0:24

they want that? And would Indonesia say

0:26

yes? It's just another loud wake -up

0:28

call for us from the messy and

0:31

dangerous realities of this new world.

0:33

I'm Hamish McDonald. And in Rome

0:35

this week, I'm Geraldine Doog. Welcome

0:37

to Global Roaming. Yes,

0:59

I do feel a long way away

1:01

from Indonesia sitting here in Rome, I

1:03

have to say. Hamish and

1:05

the election. I mean, there's a

1:07

sort of an election without peer happening here,

1:10

of course, or about to happen here. And

1:12

I can feel all the undertones of that,

1:14

which are extraordinary, just trying to discern what

1:16

you can see and what you can't. What

1:18

does it feel like there? I must say,

1:20

I'm dying to know. Well, before we go

1:22

any further, actually, Geraldine, I do need to

1:25

say congratulations to you on the superb coverage

1:27

of the Pope's funeral. It has been second

1:29

to none. And I think that that stands

1:31

testament to your knowledge and depth of understanding

1:33

and history. with the Catholic

1:35

faith and these sorts of moments. And

1:37

I think you've really added value for all

1:39

of us to understanding the significance of this

1:42

moment. I wish you were staying for the

1:44

conclave, because to me that's where it's really

1:46

getting interesting. But from what you tell me,

1:48

actually, it's the days leading up to the

1:50

conclave. That's the really sort of important bit

1:52

of the whole process. Look,

1:54

you can't see it. It's all

1:56

under the surface. I

1:58

mean, you're not allowed to talk about lobbying. Of course, that

2:01

would be very naff. But there in

2:03

fact is... lobbying or

2:05

influential process underway, not like

2:08

a normal election. It

2:10

is an election, as somebody wrote the other

2:12

day, where a man is chosen to represent

2:14

God on earth. Like, that's sort of rather

2:16

important. But it does have

2:19

a definite spiritual element. I'm a

2:21

little concerned that everybody starts to

2:23

see it purely as a lobbying

2:25

thing with, you know, people like

2:27

Steve Bannon from America coming and,

2:29

you know, allegedly stirring up trouble,

2:31

extraordinary rhetoric he's using. All the

2:33

evidence suggests these men take it

2:35

terribly seriously. They know the

2:37

duty they have. And of course, a

2:39

lot of them are very new cardinals.

2:42

A lot of them don't know Rome terribly well. And

2:45

we've got this amazing sort of globalised

2:47

church in front of us. And we

2:49

really don't know quite how that'll play

2:51

out. Of course, Geraldine, that moment with

2:53

Trump and Zelensky meeting on the two

2:56

red chairs inside the Vatican, quite extraordinary.

2:58

I want to hear from you on

3:00

that. But of course, it does appear

3:02

that that meeting has led to something.

3:04

There is now this deal for the

3:07

critical minerals. We don't really have all

3:09

of the detail of it. But it

3:11

sounds like it really mirrors what was

3:13

supposed to be signed when Zelensky went

3:15

to the White House for that meeting.

3:17

originally, it is some kind

3:20

of arrangement for reconstruction in Ukraine and

3:22

whatever price it is that America is

3:24

trying to extract for all of the

3:27

support that it has given to Ukraine

3:29

up to this point. So people talked

3:31

about symbolism and whether this was just

3:34

some kind of weird collision of faith

3:36

and politics and, I guess, moment, but

3:38

it does seem like it actually mattered.

3:40

Oh, yes. I thought it was

3:43

extraordinary. I mean, I thought it was an epic

3:45

photo. intensity

3:47

in Zelensky's whole demeanour

3:49

was something to behold.

3:52

And I intuitively knew something will

3:54

emerge from this. And of

3:57

course it is deal -making, as

3:59

Trump says. There's no doubt about

4:01

that. But that personal contact in

4:03

that fabulous basilica, which is quite

4:05

unforgettable, you'd never really

4:07

quite get over that in a way

4:09

of seeing it. But see, we've got

4:11

a Ukrainian cardinal. We've got a young

4:13

cardinal, the youngest of all of them,

4:16

44 -year -old man, who We went

4:18

to his press conference last Tuesday at

4:20

Dermas Australia, which is the one that

4:22

Cardinal Pell set up. And we could...

4:24

This is the guy based in Melbourne,

4:26

is it? He's based in Melbourne. And

4:28

he's got this brief to serve the

4:30

Ukrainian population in Oceania. It's an extraordinary

4:32

brief. He's quite stunned by it all,

4:35

I think. So he'll be there taking

4:37

all of this in, as will a

4:39

lot of them. And the question is,

4:41

will they just find the turbulence, an

4:44

invitation to steady the ship? or

4:46

will they lean into it? Now,

4:49

that is what is really being discerned

4:51

right now in both in formal meetings,

4:53

pre -conclave meetings. You can see it

4:55

in sort of restaurants and cafes all

4:57

around Rome. So I'm going to ask

4:59

you to put down your little espresso

5:01

and your pastry there for a moment

5:03

and help return our attention to our

5:05

focus this week. And, you know, we

5:07

often have this conversation about how much

5:09

of The really big things in the

5:12

world that are happening, we have to

5:14

kind of move past because there are

5:16

yet bigger things. And

5:18

this could be one of them, but

5:20

we reckon we really do need to

5:22

talk about what's going on with Russia

5:24

and Indonesia. It sort of bubbled up

5:27

momentarily during the election campaign and then

5:29

disappeared almost just as quickly. And it

5:31

was a report in Jane's Defence Weekly,

5:33

which is a journal. It breaks a

5:35

lot of stories about intelligence and military

5:38

procurement. And it had

5:40

this story suggesting that the Russians

5:42

had requested from Indonesia permanent basing

5:44

of long range military aircraft on

5:47

an island just north of West

5:49

Papua. And this kind of exploded

5:51

really as a story, didn't it?

5:54

Domestically here in Australia, Jerry? Yes,

5:56

it certainly did. And of course,

5:58

it made one realise that Prabowo,

6:01

who's the new president, relatively new

6:03

president, is someone whom we can't

6:05

predict as well or as easily

6:08

as we did his predecessor, Jacoey,

6:10

or even SBY before him. He's

6:12

a general. He's clearly very interested

6:15

in Russia. If you look at

6:17

the history of Russia and Indonesia,

6:19

actually, it's quite rich. So

6:22

suddenly, I suppose we were saying, well, where

6:24

are we here? And what is our outreach?

6:26

And what are our ongoing links? So it

6:28

certainly brought all of that to a head,

6:31

I think. In the end,

6:33

it seems that Indonesia maybe received

6:35

this request. They rejected it.

6:37

And that's where the kind of political

6:39

conversation in Australia for now is sitting.

6:42

Because, of course, you know, there are

6:44

all sorts of accusations. Is this a

6:47

failure of Australian diplomacy that we didn't

6:49

know? What in Earth's Russia trying to

6:51

do moving into the region? But I

6:53

thought, Geraldine, It's worth just taking a

6:56

moment to provide a snapshot for listeners

6:58

of what Russia and Indonesia do together,

7:00

what their relationship actually is. Because as

7:02

you've mentioned, it dates right back to

7:05

independence. It does. Before As do we,

7:07

by the way. As do we. But

7:11

I think it's just worth laying

7:13

out briefly if I can. The

7:15

Soviet Union had strongly supported Indonesia's

7:17

independent struggle against the Dutch. So

7:20

we're talking about the 1940s here.

7:22

And Sokarno had actually cultivated a

7:24

close friendship with Moscow. And then

7:26

they had this period that was

7:29

referred to as the golden age

7:31

of relations, which was the late

7:33

1950s through to the early 60s.

7:35

Now, fast forward to now, because

7:37

obviously Indonesia has gone through huge

7:40

amounts of change since then. And

7:42

obviously during the new order, Sahato

7:44

regime, they lent away from the

7:46

Soviet Union and then Russia. But

7:49

Probovo is so interesting on this. He's

7:51

travelled to Moscow four times in recent

7:53

years. Last time was in August that

7:55

he visited Putin. He

7:57

called Russia a great friend. He's due to visit again

8:00

in June. And remember that

8:02

it was Probovo back in 2023

8:04

when he was Defence Minister. He's

8:06

the one that went to Singapore

8:09

to that security forum and proposed

8:11

a Ukraine peace plan. On top

8:13

of that, last November, Indonesia hosted

8:15

joint naval exercises with the Russian

8:18

Navy, there's defence trade,

8:21

Russian -Indonesian trade total hit

8:23

four billion in 2023, and

8:25

a lot of that is because of Russian fertilizer

8:27

and wheat imports into Indonesia. And

8:30

also, Indonesia's been buying, and this is

8:32

critical to the kind of broader conflict

8:34

moment, it's been buying

8:36

discounted Russian crude oil. I

8:39

think it's hard to ignore that whether

8:41

or not this basing of aircraft happens

8:43

or even was requested, there is something

8:46

going on. It's been denied that that

8:48

request was even received. Is that right?

8:50

I have the detail of that. No,

8:52

it's not quite been denied that the

8:54

request happened. And I think that's probably

8:57

where the story really lies. James has

8:59

backed in its original story. The

9:01

Indonesians have not really denied that the

9:04

request occurred. They've simply said that it

9:06

was not granted. And Hamish, I think

9:08

I'm right. That base is actually about

9:10

1 ,900 kilometres from the key US

9:13

base in Guam. Yes. So that might

9:15

explain their interest. Absolutely. So a couple

9:17

of hours flight to Darwin, a couple

9:19

of hours flight to Guam. Anyway,

9:22

we've got a fantastic guest this week who's

9:24

going to take us right to the heart

9:26

of this story and the current day in

9:28

Indonesia. Because, you know, in this crazy world,

9:31

we're looking to who our friends are. Is

9:33

Indonesia one of them? But I

9:35

think we also need to ask what is

9:37

Indonesia today under Prabowo, who, as you say,

9:39

is a very different kind of president. Our

9:42

guest this week is the

9:44

former Indonesian Foreign Minister, Mahdi

9:46

Nathalagawe. He served under SBY,

9:48

Yudhoyono, from 2009 to 2014.

9:50

He's now an academic in

9:52

Singapore. And, you know, watch

9:54

out for the Diplo speak. There's quite a

9:56

bit of it. But I think, nonetheless, this

9:58

conversation is revealing. Pak

10:03

Marti, welcome to Global Roaming. It's great to

10:05

catch up with you. Thank you very much

10:07

for having me on the program. I'm delighted.

10:10

We've obviously been going through an election

10:13

campaign here in Australia and Indonesia does

10:15

crop up from time to time in

10:17

domestic politics but it's been a big

10:19

issue here in recent weeks because of

10:22

this... Russian request for for

10:24

basing long -range aircraft there in

10:26

Indonesia. What do you make of

10:28

it? Can you offer some insight

10:31

into what North Russia wants? What's

10:33

its interest in this region? Obviously,

10:36

I'm not privy to the details

10:38

of the case as I'm not

10:40

looking after this issue or issues

10:42

of this type. But I think

10:45

for our neighbours, including Australia, you

10:48

can be assured of one

10:50

fact. that as a country

10:52

Indonesia's foreign policy orientation is

10:54

such that we would not

10:56

allow any countries foreign bases

10:58

to be positioned in Indonesia.

11:01

So it is, as you said,

11:03

it's a legit situation and I'm

11:05

pretty sure there's not much accuracy

11:07

to it because Indonesia would not

11:09

allow us a better principle the

11:11

positioning of foreign bases on our

11:13

territory. The thing is Indonesia enjoys

11:15

strong and robust relations with many

11:17

countries including the so

11:19

-called major powers, whether it be

11:22

the United States, China, and Russia

11:24

as well. But in developing these

11:26

ties, we've always been conscious of

11:29

where the limits of the possibilities

11:31

are. And clearly, the idea of

11:34

hosting a military base would not

11:36

be something that Indonesia would entertain.

11:39

And in any case, we've always

11:41

felt that developing strong ties with

11:43

one country does not mean necessarily

11:46

lesser ties with another. a

11:48

win -win and mutually inclusive

11:51

relationship. Pagmati, you're still sounding

11:53

very diplomatic. Yes,

11:57

well, you know, I mean, in

11:59

the past, we did learn of

12:02

the positioning of rotational military assets

12:04

in Australia, for instance, by a

12:07

certain country, and learned

12:09

about it only after the

12:11

event or recent announcements about

12:13

AUKUS, for instance. We

12:15

also learned in a certain ways point

12:18

being, as far as Indonesia is concerned,

12:20

the best assurance for Australia is the

12:23

fact that that's a matter of principle.

12:25

We will not host any military bases

12:27

in Indonesia, whether it be US, Russia,

12:30

or China, or any other country. How

12:33

would you describe for an

12:35

Australian listener where Indonesia sees

12:37

its place in the world?

12:39

Because what we're talking about

12:41

here relates to Indonesia's traditional

12:43

position as non -aligned. But

12:46

you've gone through various

12:48

versions of democracy, autocracy,

12:51

the new order regime, and we

12:53

all know the story of what's

12:55

happened, you know, over the last

12:58

couple of decades with SBY and

13:00

then Jacoey. These are very sort

13:02

of strong democratic figures that have

13:04

wanted good, solid relations with the

13:06

West. And I guess for an

13:08

Australian audience, maybe it's hard to

13:10

understand the way you see Your

13:12

place in the world? Can you

13:15

articulate it for us neatly? There's

13:18

clearly a link between domestic

13:20

dynamics, internal dynamics, and the

13:23

external dynamic as well in

13:25

terms of how internal changes

13:27

affect Indonesia's outlook on foreign

13:30

policy. Then Indonesia

13:32

has undergone quite a

13:34

fundamental transformation, certainly after

13:36

1998 with teleformacy. One

13:39

continuous feature irrespective of

13:41

the changes domestically has

13:43

been its general foreign

13:45

policy orientation that values

13:47

a sense of independence

13:49

and capacity for independent

13:51

decision -making and this

13:53

has been irrespective of

13:55

the domestic situations. But

13:58

another feature I think that's important

14:00

for a country like Australia. I

14:02

can't speak of the current situation

14:05

but until quite recently we have

14:07

positioned ourselves as a country that

14:09

strong beliefs in the promotion of

14:11

democratic principles and governance. And

14:14

as a result, we have grown ever closer

14:16

to a country like Australia that similarly supports

14:18

such principles. It's not a given. It's something

14:20

that we must continue to earn and earn

14:23

as we develop. I guess something that's going

14:25

on for us here though in Australia at

14:27

the moment is a bit of an adjustment

14:29

because of everything that's happening with Trump. We

14:32

have counted on this strong relationship

14:35

with the United States is the central pillar, I

14:37

guess, of our position in the world. And before

14:39

that, it was with Britain. You

14:41

know, when you're Foreign Minister of Indonesia, who

14:44

do you look out towards as your

14:47

closest friend? In

14:49

general, our inclination is to avoid

14:51

putting all our eggs in one

14:53

basket and not to become over

14:56

-reliant on one power, to diversify,

14:58

to actually fortify ourselves against geopolitical

15:01

shocks. and not to be overly

15:03

dependent on one country. So you've

15:05

been doing what we're thinking about

15:08

maybe we should do now. To

15:11

be frank, I'm a bit

15:13

surprised by most recent developments

15:15

in Australia because in the

15:18

past Australia has been correct

15:20

or fault in developing its

15:22

Asia Pacific footprint. One recalls

15:24

the Australia's initiative on APAC

15:26

for instance, Australia's close

15:28

engagement within ASEAN. East Asia Summit, etc.

15:31

In other words, or for an Australia

15:33

that can whistle and walk at the

15:35

same time, being able to develop close

15:38

ties with the US, but at the

15:40

same time developing close ties with its

15:42

own neighborhood. But sometimes

15:44

the impression gets developed that as

15:46

if you can only choose one

15:48

over the other. And I hope

15:51

Australia can return if that's the

15:53

right term, but suddenly augment its

15:55

more Asia -Pacific part of the

15:57

region outlook. so to speak. Yeah.

15:59

Do you think that there's a

16:01

substantively different relationship that we could

16:03

have with you in Indonesia in

16:05

the longer term? Like if we

16:08

are to go down this path

16:10

of diversifying, you know, playing the

16:12

field a little bit more in

16:14

terms of who our alliances are

16:16

with, could Australia

16:18

and Indonesia think far more

16:21

constructively about something that does

16:23

look more perhaps economically integrated,

16:26

but maybe even diplomatically integrated in

16:28

terms of how we face this

16:31

region. Like Australia is obviously very

16:33

developed, but Indonesia in the future

16:35

may be an incredibly wealthy, incredibly

16:38

powerful, as well as populace,

16:40

which it already is, nation in this region.

16:43

Well, you know, I mean,

16:45

Indonesia -Australian relationship, in my

16:48

view, is far more important

16:50

than merely a normal bilateral

16:52

relationship. it has a potentially

16:54

important strategic implications. So

16:57

whenever in the past, Australia and

16:59

Indonesia come together to address common

17:01

issues, a challenge, we

17:04

actually punch above our respective weights.

17:06

We think about how the two

17:08

countries, for instance, dealt with the

17:11

then extremely prevalent threats of

17:13

terrorism in our region, how

17:15

we dealt in the past on

17:17

natural disasters as well, when you plan

17:20

ahead. in dealing with Aceh, tsunami. When

17:23

we come together, we augment our

17:25

voice. And I think it's very

17:27

important for us to ensure that

17:29

our relationship is fit for purpose.

17:32

Yeah. But Pakmati, what you're talking about there, that

17:34

falls into that sort of old category of the

17:36

three Bs, right? What was

17:38

it, bombs, beef and barley? That that's

17:40

what the relationship between Australia and Indonesia

17:43

was about. And I guess

17:45

so many people in Jakarta and Canberra

17:47

have argued for a really long time

17:49

that it has to be more than

17:51

that. What I'm just kind of probing

17:53

for right now from you is what

17:55

does that look like? What is it?

17:58

If these two countries are actually

18:00

to do something really productive and

18:03

meaningful together in this more complicated

18:05

world, what is it? We

18:08

need to be able to define

18:10

or at least identify what the

18:13

key common challenges that we face.

18:15

and ensure that our cooperation is

18:17

relevant and actually address those challenges.

18:20

For instance, for many

18:22

now, quite surprisingly actually, in my

18:24

view, increasingly there is a concern

18:26

in our part of the world

18:28

about the threat of climate change.

18:31

And this is one issue that

18:33

I think Indonesia and Australia can

18:35

cooperate closely on, on renewables, for

18:37

instance. I'm not going

18:39

to let you skip past that,

18:41

buddy, because I reckon that is

18:44

interesting, right? It's an interesting idea.

18:46

But are you talking about, you

18:48

know, sun cable and piping renewable

18:50

energy from Northern Australia, or are

18:52

you talking about Australian investment in

18:54

renewables in Indonesia? What

18:56

exactly do you mean? Yes, I

18:58

think it's all of the above,

19:00

because I know that for a

19:02

fact that Australia itself now is

19:04

having a very robust national debate

19:06

and discussions on your energy mix.

19:09

as you try to make a

19:11

move towards renewable energy options. And

19:14

Indonesia is also struggling with the

19:16

same. So, for instance, at the

19:18

very least we can compare notes.

19:20

What are the type of concerns

19:22

that we have? You have had

19:25

to alleviate and to address likewise

19:27

in our part. But I honestly

19:29

think that our two countries on

19:31

so -called this type of 21st

19:33

country issues we can project a

19:35

more modern type of bilateral cooperation

19:38

rather than simply relying on the

19:40

past. So Indonesia and

19:42

BRICS, I want to talk about

19:44

this. You joined in January of

19:46

this year. You're sort of

19:49

sketching out this position that Indonesia takes

19:51

of, just making sure you're friends with

19:53

as many people as you can and

19:55

sort of balancing your risk. But

19:58

that doesn't seem to be the objective

20:00

of BRICS. It seems to be about

20:03

creating a different architecture that's not reliant

20:05

on the West. It excludes the West.

20:08

Is that a fair observation? I

20:11

am not, obviously, the person who had

20:13

been part of this decision by Indonesia

20:15

to join BRICS. I have my own

20:17

personal view whether it is a useful

20:19

thing to do. What is that view,

20:22

Marty? Yes,

20:24

I would rather keep it to

20:26

myself, but in essence, essentially, whatever

20:28

forum that one joins, you really

20:30

must know what you're doing there,

20:32

right? What are your actual objectives

20:34

in joining? Apart from the type

20:36

of general statements along the line

20:38

of, we want to be present

20:40

in all the different forums, etc.,

20:43

etc. We were invited

20:45

back in 2011, if I'm not mistaken, together

20:47

with South Africa to join, but at the

20:49

time we chose not to. Because at the

20:52

time we felt, I felt that unless you

20:54

have a very clear notion of what you

20:56

want to be doing in that organization, you

20:59

can simply be making up the number and

21:01

be led in a certain direction. That's why

21:03

actually together with Australia, we

21:05

set up what we call

21:08

MIKTA, M -I -K -T

21:10

-A, Mexico, India, Indonesia, Korea,

21:13

Turkey and Australia within the

21:15

G20 to provide a bridge

21:17

between the G7 and the

21:19

then BRICS. The

21:22

decision has been made now to join

21:24

by the current government. I just read

21:26

reports today that the BRICS countries were

21:28

not able to agree on a joint

21:30

statement because of differences on the UN

21:32

Security Council reform. So I hope our

21:35

delegation in the meetings would have a

21:37

clarity view in terms of what it

21:39

is that we are trying to achieve

21:41

in the polarization. Pakhmati, it

21:43

sounds like you have some doubts. I

21:47

remain to be convinced. Can

21:52

you sketch for us just a

21:54

picture of what you think is

21:56

going on in Indonesia domestically today?

21:58

Prabowo is a very different character

22:00

to either Jokowi before him or

22:03

SBY before that. Obviously

22:05

Prabowo has a pretty checkered

22:07

history and his role in

22:09

the military during the New

22:11

Order period. He's interesting is

22:13

probably a diplomatic way of

22:15

putting it. But he's

22:18

done some pretty interesting stuff since he's

22:20

come in, you know, parading his cabinet

22:22

around in military fatigues, entertaining some of

22:24

these visitors from Russia, also

22:27

talking about the role of

22:29

the military in civilian life

22:31

and in government in Indonesia.

22:33

Is Indonesia's democratic advance?

22:36

Is that being endangered a bit right

22:38

now? Well, when I

22:41

look at developments in Indonesia,

22:43

I don't necessarily follow the...

22:45

calendar, the coming and goings

22:48

of specific individual leaders. But

22:51

just look at in general, post

22:53

-1998 for instance, what

22:55

are the prevailing dynamics and

22:57

using the reform as the

23:00

yardstick, whether it be for

23:02

instance on the issue of

23:04

corruption, collusion, nepotism. In all

23:07

those areas, I think we

23:09

are facing some headwinds. They

23:11

are not specific to one

23:14

government or the other because

23:16

the type of dynamics or

23:18

the impressions that you described

23:21

just now is one that

23:23

has been felt over the

23:25

past 10 years at least,

23:28

the increasing prominence of either

23:30

to back in their own

23:32

respective responsibility entities. now

23:35

they're back. That's the sense.

23:37

Okay, but surely Martin Adalagawa

23:39

as a civilian former foreign

23:42

minister of Indonesia, it must

23:44

have been pretty shocking for

23:46

you to see Prabowo parading

23:48

his cabinet around in military

23:51

fatigues. Surely that must have

23:53

worried you? Again, my comments

23:55

are not specific to any

23:57

particular leader or president. The

24:00

parading of individuals in military fatigue

24:02

is the most overt demonstration

24:05

of a general phenomenon that is

24:07

the headwinds that I have been

24:09

speaking of just now. It is

24:11

a useful time to reflect where

24:13

our journey is. Well, anyway, yeah,

24:15

I think I'll keep it there.

24:19

Marty, you can take the diplomat out of

24:21

office, but you can't take the diplomacy out

24:23

of the diplomat. Could you

24:25

just give me your personal

24:27

observation of it? I

24:30

think from afar we see this and think, oh,

24:33

what's Prabowo doing there? What's he hinting

24:35

at? I mean, you must have been

24:37

concerned. Yeah, in

24:40

general, there's not just that one

24:42

episode, but in general, there

24:45

is, as I said, there is a

24:47

sense of headwinds being felt about the

24:49

role of different institutions within our state.

24:51

So this is something that There is

24:53

a need for reflections on where we

24:56

are heading. Can you talk to me

24:58

about the other big story in Indonesia

25:00

right now, which is the relationship between

25:02

this president, Prabowo, and the

25:04

former president, Joko Widodo. So,

25:07

Jokoi remains a big force

25:09

in Indonesian politics. His son,

25:12

is the vice president to Prabowo

25:14

and this sort of is the

25:17

strongest symbol of their alliance that

25:19

they formed. It seems

25:21

like there's a bit of a schism

25:23

and there's a bit of a battle

25:26

between these different factions within the current

25:28

government. Is that a fair

25:30

way of observing it? To

25:32

what extent is Jacoey a threat

25:34

to Prabowo? I

25:37

wouldn't use it as a

25:39

threat, but certainly as a

25:41

thriving and a very robust

25:44

democracy like any other similar

25:46

countries in Malaysia have its

25:48

own political dynamics to manage.

25:50

You describe one important nexus

25:53

or dynamics within our body

25:55

politic at the moment. What

25:58

I'm interested in is not simply

26:00

to look at the who's who

26:03

so to speak but more in

26:05

terms of what policy implications if

26:07

any these types of political back

26:10

and forth create. Does it make

26:12

for more robust checks and balance?

26:15

Does it make for more

26:17

thoroughly considered policies? So

26:20

these are the type of things that I'm

26:22

looking at, trying to think about the policy

26:24

implications. And this is where

26:26

I think we are still waiting out

26:28

and to see outings. developed. There are

26:31

some pretty big forces at play though

26:33

in in Indonesian politics right now and

26:35

and it's pretty weird isn't it to

26:38

have the current and the ex -president

26:40

so you know center stage in this

26:42

way? Yeah well

26:45

the situation is that the

26:47

previous one is certainly still

26:49

about not quite completely gone

26:51

away but it is what

26:53

it is I guess Pakmati

26:56

Nathalegawa, it's always lovely to talk to you.

26:58

Thank you so much. Thank you

27:00

very much indeed for having me on the program. Well,

27:06

Jerry, I want to hear what

27:09

you think of that interview. I

27:11

guess you can get some sense

27:13

of my slight frustration, much as

27:15

I love Pakmati Nathalegawa. The

27:17

diplomat in him is so strong and

27:20

profound that sometimes I found it a

27:22

little hard to kind of get really

27:24

clear answers to stuff. I don't think

27:26

there is a diplomat in you. Look,

27:30

I actually thought he said

27:33

an awful lot. Okay.

27:35

I really, you know, I'm listening

27:37

here from Rome, and I thought,

27:40

wow, democracy is facing

27:42

some headwinds. Whoa, gee, that's

27:44

very strong. In fact, in

27:46

my view, and the material

27:48

about the bricks, you must

27:50

know what you're doing there.

27:52

Otherwise, sort of, what's the

27:54

point? really he basically said

27:56

you can get yourself in where

27:58

you never wanted to belong or

28:01

associated with things you didn't feel

28:03

you wanted to be associated with.

28:05

I actually thought that was very

28:07

strong stuff from Martina Tallagawa. So

28:09

from what I've been reading Indonesia

28:11

itself risks drifting, some people are

28:13

suggesting that these little internal dynamics

28:16

that are sort of bubbling away

28:18

there, and we got a sense

28:20

of that very carefully from Marty

28:22

Natalagawa, that they're

28:24

not nothing. And, you know,

28:26

that it won't be an Indonesia's interest

28:28

to have differing sources of power, which

28:31

I gather is sort of built in

28:33

into their system a bit, and particularly

28:35

with, you know, Jakowi, as he said,

28:37

is still around. But, you know, it's

28:39

not the first time though, Jerry, that

28:42

there's been a former president hanging around

28:44

and exercising power in Indonesia. You know,

28:46

think about Megawater Sakana Putri and her

28:48

influence on politics in Indonesia, you know,

28:51

in the decades, in fact, subsequent to

28:53

that. I reckon slightly you

28:55

enjoyed that so much, Jerry,

28:57

because of Marty's deep skepticism

28:59

of the Bricks. I

29:03

did hear that. Notice I didn't. I

29:05

didn't absolutely dominate that. No,

29:07

it was very, he's, look, he was trained

29:09

at the ANU, Marty.

29:12

I think he's an interesting thinker about

29:14

foreign affairs. No, no, I was open

29:16

-minded. I remain open. Look, I'm confronted

29:18

with a bricks form of church, believe

29:20

you me. You should see the range

29:22

of people in front of you in

29:25

Rome. Too many, too many people,

29:27

but yes, that's what I see in the church.

29:33

OK, recommendations, Geordie. Well, look, I could

29:35

recommend Conclave. I did watch it again

29:37

on the plane. But look, I would

29:39

also recommend, if people are in this

29:41

mode, given that there's going to be

29:43

quite a lot of discussion, another

29:45

very good film called Two Popes, which

29:47

was brought out about four years ago

29:49

with Anthony Hopkins and Jonathan Pryke, Anthony

29:52

Hopkins playing Benedict. Pope

29:54

Benedict and Jonathan Pryke playing

29:56

the incoming Bergoglio. It's beautifully

29:58

scripted, very clever and brilliant

30:01

performances, particularly both by both

30:03

men, but at Hopkins especially.

30:05

So there's my recommendation for

30:07

the week. If I may,

30:10

I'm going to recommend something that I worked on

30:12

this week, which was one of these ABC Your

30:14

Say forums. It was based on the huge feedback

30:16

from Australian voters in the lead -up to the

30:18

election about the issues that matter most. It turned

30:21

out foreign policy in Australia's place in the world

30:23

is one of the most important issues on voters'

30:25

minds at the moment. And so

30:27

we hosted this event on all of

30:29

ABC Radio and television. mid

30:32

-week and it's available on iView. I think

30:34

it deals with a lot of the questions

30:36

that we talk about, but kind of speaking

30:38

directly to voters concerns, qualms about the US

30:40

relationship, AUKUS, China, all the rest of it.

30:42

So I hope that's not too self -indulgent,

30:44

but a lot of work from a lot

30:46

of people went into it and I think

30:48

it's worth a watch. And look, can

30:51

I mention, you know, given the whole

30:53

notion of foreign policy? entering people's mindset

30:55

more. I've done a special, an

30:57

interview with, which we're going to do as

31:00

a special Global Roaming episode, which I think

31:02

will drop on Monday, with the foreign minister

31:04

of the Vatican, Archbishop Paul Gallagher,

31:06

who was actually Papal Nuncio to Australia,

31:08

which is the sort of the senior

31:10

Vatican appointment to Australia, like the diplomat,

31:12

the chief diplomat to Australia. He obviously

31:14

worked very well with Francis, the ultimate

31:16

political man he felt, interestingly. So

31:19

he'll have a new boss. Well,

31:21

when is it? Are they going on

31:23

the 7th? I think they might have

31:25

a new boss by the night. But

31:27

I think people will enjoy hearing that.

31:29

Some surprises there. Thanks to our producers,

31:31

Isabel Somersen and Rebecca Medcalf. Geraldine, before

31:33

we go, a very happy birthday to

31:35

you for this week. It is supreme,

31:37

seeing you at the top of your

31:39

game and enjoying it so much. Thank

31:41

you very much indeed. I had a

31:43

lovely prosecco at that bar you recommended,

31:46

Taraz a Borromini, just near

31:48

the Piazza Navona. Bliss! Please, ciao,

31:51

bye.