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C-site for details. Hello,

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I'm Zing Singh. And I'm Simon Jack. And we're

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excited to let you know that a new

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season of good bad billionaire is coming soon.

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Yep, we'll be back with brand new episodes

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names and even bigger stories coming your way.

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But before that, because we know you've been

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missing us, we're bringing back a couple of

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our favorite stories from the Good Bad

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Billionaire Archives. And we're starting with

1:00

one of the most famous billionaires

1:02

we've ever talked about, pop star

1:04

Taylor Swift. Back in February 2024,

1:06

when this episode first went out,

1:08

she had just joined the billionaire

1:10

club and was in the middle of

1:12

her world-conquering era's tour. A year later,

1:15

she's barely been out of the headlines,

1:17

all the headlines, all the headlines. 18.

1:19

Lots of them came from that record-breaking

1:21

tour as did lots of her money.

1:24

And she also broke records with her album

1:26

The Tortured Poets Department which had the most

1:28

streams of any album on a single day

1:31

when it was streamed over 300 million times

1:33

the day it came out in April last

1:35

year. Oh and that was her own record

1:37

she broke too. Right then, let's listen

1:39

back to our classic Good Bad billionaire

1:41

on Taylor Swift. Welcome

1:49

to Good Bad Billionaire, the program where

1:51

each episode we pick a billionaire, find

1:54

out how they made their money. And

1:56

then we judge them. Are they good,

1:58

bad or just another billionaire? I'm Simon

2:00

Jack, I'm the BBC's business editor.

2:02

And I'm Singh Singh, I'm a

2:04

journalist author and podcaster. And this

2:06

week, a whole new branch of

2:08

the dismal science of economics, Swiftenomics.

2:10

That is the school of, what,

2:13

financial thought, pioneered by Taylor Swift?

2:15

incredible. A woman who can move

2:17

the dial on whole economies. I

2:19

think she even gets named check

2:21

by the Federal Reserve of the

2:23

US for her contribution to boosting

2:25

local economies. And in 2023 she

2:27

became one of pop music's newly

2:29

minted billionaires. And unlike other billionaires

2:31

we've talked about, she did it

2:33

through her music. It wasn't owning

2:35

companies like Rianaana, for example, to

2:38

have VentiBG. This is straight from

2:40

the world beating eras tour. which

2:42

is still on tour this year

2:44

and will wrap up sometime at

2:46

the end of 2024. But first,

2:48

let's break down Taylor by numbers.

2:50

Her ear as tour is a

2:52

massive undertaking 150 stadium shows across

2:54

five continents. and could make her

2:56

as much as $4 billion personally.

2:58

So if you've been living under

3:00

rock and you don't know what

3:03

the Era's Tour is about, it

3:05

is a retrospective of her 10

3:07

studio albums. And each album has

3:09

broken almost every record imaginable. In

3:11

fact, she currently holds 69 Guinness

3:13

record titles. Unbelievable. She's won 12

3:15

Grammys, two private jets. And all

3:17

this off the back of a

3:19

songwriting career. She wrote her first

3:21

song at the age of 10.

3:23

She's now 34. Yeah, she has

3:25

this incredible connection with her fans.

3:28

In fact, 53% of all US

3:30

adults would call themselves a fan.

3:32

It is officially illegal not to

3:34

be a Taylor Swift fan. They

3:36

also have their own name. They

3:38

called Swiftie. So Swiftie's, if you're

3:40

listening now, please go easy on

3:42

us. If we say that she's

3:44

a bad billionaire, we'll get cancelled

3:46

by the army of Swiftie of

3:48

Swift's. Well, we will reserve judgment

3:50

until the end of the episode.

3:52

She's also tall. I don't know

3:55

if you've ever seen her in

3:57

flesh. I saw her at a

3:59

hotel... tell once in London and

4:01

she was standing headchild to serve

4:03

everyone else. She's hard to miss. I

4:05

actually saw her when she came out

4:07

during the 1975 concert when she was

4:09

controversially dating frontman Matt Healy. Yeah her

4:11

relationships get well chronicled in her music. Yes

4:14

they do. But let's have a listen to

4:16

a clip of Taylor Swift herself speaking to

4:18

Clara Ampho for the BBC in 2019. Your

4:21

album, Lover, is number one in the

4:23

UK. It's number one pretty much everywhere

4:25

at the moment. It's been a really,

4:27

really good time, yeah, with this album.

4:29

How satisfying does it feel for you

4:31

to have this album be number one

4:33

A, but the first album that you

4:36

legally own. This is all your baby.

4:38

How good is that first? It's literally

4:40

the most satisfying feeling in the world,

4:42

to own this record, to know that...

4:44

you know, this is something that I've

4:46

always written on my own music, I've

4:48

always made all of my own decisions,

4:51

I've always curated absolutely everything about what

4:53

I do, but you know, the fact

4:55

that I own it, it's just there's something

4:57

about that that makes it more

4:59

special than anything I've ever done. Throughout

5:02

this portrait, we're going to paint of

5:04

Taylor Swift, one thing keeps coming back

5:06

is that there's a steely determination, and

5:08

she kind of manages to turn being

5:10

slight victim of the industry into a

5:12

show of a show of strength. Yeah,

5:15

exactly. I think what comes across of

5:17

Taylor's history is this kind of need for

5:19

control, right? Which I think is quite

5:21

common among billionaires that we've talked about. She

5:23

wants to control her public image, she

5:25

wants to control the masters of her albums,

5:28

she wants to control that songwriting talent.

5:30

And I think that there have been points

5:32

in a career where that kind of

5:34

need for control has spilled out into the

5:36

public image and people have kind of

5:38

turned against her. If we're talking about right

5:40

now, she is never ridden higher

5:42

than she has at the moment.

5:45

She is literally on top

5:47

of the world. Probably the

5:49

most famous person in the

5:51

world, potentially. Let's go back to

5:53

the beginning and go from zero

5:55

to her first million. So, Taylor's

5:57

born in December of 1989.

5:59

of Pennsylvania and she was born into

6:01

a quite wealthy middle-class family. Her mother

6:04

worked in finance and became a stay-at-home

6:06

mom. Her dad was a stock broker

6:08

and she's actually descended from three generations

6:10

of bank presidents. So we'll get to

6:12

that when we go to our Rags

6:14

to Rich's category for sure. They lived

6:16

on a Christmas tree farm. They had

6:18

a beach house on the Jersey Shore.

6:20

she assumed she would follow her parents

6:23

into finance and this is the kind

6:25

of sliding doors moment I would love

6:27

to see Taylor Swift the stockbroker. Yeah,

6:29

the first album she bought was by

6:31

Leon Rhymes, famous country artist, she then

6:33

discovered Shinaya Twain and her roots are

6:35

in country music. They are. So she

6:37

started vocal and acting lessons in New

6:39

York City by her time. She was

6:42

nine. And she was really writing songs

6:44

by the time. She was 10 because

6:46

she was unhappy at school. She said

6:48

she had a big group of friends.

6:50

Then one day they decided not to

6:52

like her anymore and she didn't know

6:54

why. But luckily, one of the great

6:56

joys that she puts it about it

6:58

was it enabled me to have the

7:01

last word. And that keeps coming up

7:03

again and again. She likes to have

7:05

the last word in these situations. and

7:07

she watched VH1 behind the music and

7:09

learned that Faith Hill, famous country artist,

7:11

was discovered in Nashville. So that's where

7:13

she thinks she needs to go. Yeah,

7:15

so she said she began absolutely non-stop

7:17

tormenting her parents. begging them on a

7:20

daily basis to move there and finally

7:22

in 2001 on spring break her mom

7:24

kind of capitulates and finally takes her

7:26

to Nashville. I don't know have you

7:28

ever been to Nashville? I have and

7:30

it is the sort of capital city

7:32

for country music and she went up

7:34

and down music row in Nashville taking

7:36

a demo CDs of her songs and

7:39

she said hi I'm Taylor I'm 11

7:41

I want a record deal call me.

7:43

And they all turned her down. They

7:45

said, you know, give up your dreams,

7:47

go home, come back when you're 18.

7:49

And in Taylor's words, I chose not

7:51

to hear that. Yeah, I wonder how

7:53

many people will be listening to this,

7:55

they passed on Taylor Swift, that's going

7:58

to be like the person. who said

8:00

they didn't want to manage the Beatles.

8:02

But she wanted to stand out and

8:04

she's a musician herself. She learned to

8:06

play the guitar. And initially her mother told

8:08

Taylor that her fingers were too small to

8:10

play a 12-string guitar. As her mom says,

8:13

that was all it took, don't say never

8:15

or can't do to Taylor, and Taylor ended

8:17

up playing four hours a day. Her fingers

8:19

were cracked and bleeding, she taped them up,

8:21

she keep playing, but if you see Taylor

8:24

now, she plays 12 strings. Yeah, as a

8:26

amateur guitar player myself, I can tell

8:28

you that playing a 12 string is

8:30

much harder than playing a 6 string,

8:32

so I salute her application, a dedication

8:34

to keep playing it. Do you think

8:36

it was Taylor's personality that led her

8:38

to kind of this driven or were

8:40

her parents pushy? It feels like it's coming

8:42

from her, doesn't it? I don't get the

8:45

sense that they were the ones doing the pushing,

8:47

one of those tiger moms with a,

8:49

you know, sort of, you know, hawking their

8:51

kid around. It feels like it's coming from

8:54

her. So anyway, she starts breaking into the

8:56

industry proper around 13. She started working with

8:58

a New York talent manager called Dan Dimtro,

9:00

and he had been the day-to-day manager

9:02

for Brittany Spears, so he's got some experience

9:05

of hot property. pretty young. She got

9:07

offered an artist development deal by RCA

9:09

Records which is owned by Sony and

9:11

what a development deal means is that

9:14

you're given the time and the money

9:16

to record but you don't sign on

9:18

the dotted line for any kind of

9:20

album and her family uprooted itself for

9:23

Taylor so her dad got a transfer

9:25

to Merrill Lynch's Nashville office so the

9:27

whole family moved from Pennsylvania to Tennessee.

9:29

That is quite a big deal isn't

9:31

it? Uprooting yourself to move for a

9:33

potential burgeoning... career. I mean getting a

9:35

mom and dad to move house from

9:37

you know and Pennsylvania to Tennessee so

9:39

they're very different places. It's a big

9:41

move especially considering she had a brother at

9:44

the time. She's basically getting her whole family

9:46

to upsticks for her. Okay so she's all

9:48

in on the music. She said Nashville was

9:50

a really weird existence. She said she was

9:53

school teenager during the day but in the

9:55

evenings was writing songs with hit songwriters. Every

9:57

Tuesday she would do a two-hour session with

9:59

Liz Rose, who was a songwriting partner.

10:01

And Liz Rose says, basically, I was

10:03

just her editor. She'd write about what

10:05

happened in school that day. And that's

10:07

interesting. She talks about personal experiences, one

10:09

of probably her big appeals, and why

10:11

she has such an army of fans.

10:14

Yeah, and you have to remember at

10:16

this point, you know, country music was

10:18

not made for or by young people.

10:20

Yes, sure, there was Shinaya, there was

10:22

Leon Rimes, but the vast majority of

10:24

country music was older guys, and the

10:26

women in it was singing about, you

10:28

know. lost loves and kids and divorce.

10:30

You know, not exactly the kind of

10:32

bread and butter of a 13 year

10:34

old songwriter. I still think of people

10:36

like Kenny Rogers and Garth Brooks and

10:38

people like that. It was either kind

10:40

of these old cowboy types or it

10:42

was as you say people talking about

10:44

the rent's due, the kids are this,

10:46

or I'm getting divorced. Where have all

10:48

the cowboys gone? Yeah, and she says,

10:51

you know, Taylor Swift says, I felt

10:53

there was no reason why country music

10:55

shouldn't relate to someone my age was

10:57

writing it. So anyway, she's making money

10:59

and in fact she bought in her

11:01

sophomore year, that means when you're about

11:03

16, she gets enough money together to

11:05

buy herself Alexis convertible and the choice

11:07

of that car is interesting. Exactly. If

11:09

you remember the film Mean Girls, Regina

11:11

George drives Alexis and Taylor kind of

11:13

describes the purchase as a revenge gift

11:15

against the girls who were kind of

11:17

ostracizing her at school and she says...

11:19

it was like you guys never invited

11:21

me to anything you guys are obsessed

11:23

with that car but I've been working

11:25

really hard every single day instead of

11:28

going to parties I've been writing songs

11:30

and you know getting paid and guess

11:32

which one I'm gonna buy the one

11:34

that you girls idolize has. There's something

11:36

quite angular about that isn't it? It's

11:38

a little bit of a FU isn't

11:40

it? Yeah it's definitely pointed let's do

11:42

it that way. Yeah that's a good

11:44

way of putting it. So she moved

11:46

to homeschooling after the 10th grade to

11:48

fit school work around music. She said

11:50

she finished her education doing homeschool work

11:52

on the floors of airport terminals. And

11:54

that airport terminals line should give you

11:56

a bit of a head. up because

11:58

you know the next few years are

12:00

going to be pivotal for Taylor Swift

12:02

so at 14 she walks away from

12:04

RCA because the artist development deal falls

12:07

apart. The label shelved her and she

12:09

said she generally felt like she was

12:11

running out of time to make it.

12:13

They wanted her to sort of record other

12:15

people's songs as well which she didn't want

12:17

to be just another sort of front-person girl

12:19

singer. And it's interesting in this assessment of

12:21

her talent right because I think if you're

12:23

teenage girl and you're getting told you could

12:25

be a big star, you just be like,

12:28

yeah sure I'll record the song that someone

12:30

else written for me. Yeah, but it

12:32

seems that she understood and I think

12:34

people around her understood that her songwriting

12:36

actually was one of her greatest talents.

12:38

And as we'll find out later on, it's also

12:40

going to be a thing that makes her

12:42

a huge amount of money. Yeah, for

12:45

sure. So 15 years old at an

12:47

industry showcase, she caught the attention of

12:49

a guy called Scott Borchetta, a record

12:51

executive who was setting up an independent

12:53

record label called Big Machine Records. She

12:55

was one of Big Machines first

12:57

signings, and her father actually ended

12:59

up... putting money into company, he

13:01

purchased around 3% share of big

13:03

machine records for a rumoured $120,000.

13:05

And she said she wanted a record label

13:08

that actually needed her. She wanted... you know,

13:10

to be pivotal to the success of the

13:12

whole company. And I guess it also helps

13:14

that her dad now kind of owns shares

13:16

in the company, right? Exactly. Before signing though,

13:18

she dumped her manager, Dan Dimtro, and

13:20

who would later sue her for breach

13:22

of contract. But Swift's lawyers hit back

13:24

and said for him to claim that

13:26

her success and her major contracts were

13:28

procured by him is ludicrous. So this

13:31

case went on for years, but actually

13:33

was kept rather quiet at that time.

13:35

There was an interesting point where Dan's lawyers

13:37

released an email supposedly an email supposedly... written

13:39

by Taylor Swift's father to Scott Bochetta where

13:41

he said enough with the Dimtro you asked

13:44

me to break both his lakes wrap him

13:46

in chains and throw him into the lake

13:48

I did. Yeah well the judge threw out

13:50

all of Dimtro's claims except one for unjust

13:53

enrichment and the case was settled out of

13:55

court. As a New Yorker puts it

13:57

it did provide glimpses into the

13:59

adult neglect. negotiations inevitably at work

14:02

behind a teenage success story. As

14:04

we'll find out, wherever Taylor goes,

14:06

lawyers are never far behind. In

14:08

2006 though, she released her eponymous

14:10

debut album and that spent 24

14:12

weeks at number one of the

14:14

country music charts in the US,

14:17

but didn't just do well in

14:19

the country charts. So it peaked

14:21

at number five on the US

14:23

Billboard charts and it was the

14:25

longest charting album of the 2000s,

14:27

like the whole decade. Yeah, I

14:29

passed a 151 week chart life

14:31

of her hero, Shinaya Twain's coming

14:34

over. So the crown is being

14:36

handed over here. And it made

14:38

her rich. partly because of the

14:40

fact that recording has two forms

14:42

of copyright. So just to break

14:44

it down, there's a sound recording

14:46

or the master recording, which is

14:49

going to become very important. And

14:51

number two, the composition. So as

14:53

the songwriter Taylor gets royalties for

14:55

the copyright of the composition. And

14:57

that sets her apart from people

14:59

like Brittany Spears, Riana, Whitney Houston,

15:01

for example. They didn't write their

15:04

own songs, so they're only getting

15:06

one bit of that money, whereas

15:08

she's getting both. So by 2006

15:10

she is estimated to be worth

15:12

around four million dollars. She is

15:14

officially a millionaire at the age

15:16

of 16. Wow. So let's chart

15:19

how she goes from a million

15:21

to a billion. This is the

15:23

point at which she starts harnessing

15:25

the emerging technologies to really push

15:27

her brand and her music. Now,

15:29

if you cast your mind back

15:31

to the Houseian years of 2006,

15:34

there was a little website called

15:36

MySpace. Yeah, I remember it well.

15:38

It was a big deal at

15:40

the time. It was bigger than

15:42

Yahoo, bigger than Google. It was

15:44

the most visited website in the

15:46

US. And Taylor was using MySpace

15:49

to communicate with her young fans.

15:51

She was putting music up before

15:53

it was released. She's beginning to

15:55

forge what she's mastered to this

15:57

day, which is kind of how...

15:59

like a digital nervous system. She's

16:01

got this kind of digital tentacles

16:03

which basically... feedback information to her

16:06

and she can project out to

16:08

her fans. Although I think it's worth

16:10

noting at this point and I remember this

16:12

point well because I was for my sense

16:14

on MySpace a lot. She wasn't the first

16:17

artist to do this so you know people

16:19

like Lily Allen, Arctic monkeys, they were all

16:21

posting on MySpace by 2005. MySpace was what

16:23

TikTok is to now to music artists.

16:25

But what's special I think about Taylor

16:27

Swift is there seems to be this

16:29

deeply personal relationship where they you know

16:32

the fans feel... very connected to her

16:34

in a way that's other people who

16:36

use in social media. You don't quite

16:38

get that depth of connection. No, and

16:40

I think part of it is because when

16:42

you start out so young in the music

16:44

industry and you are in control of your

16:46

music because you're writing the songs, people can

16:48

kind of look at a Riana song and

16:51

say, oh I remember that because I was

16:53

listening to it when I was in university.

16:55

but with Taylor it's like you're seeing the

16:57

world from her viewpoint and because she's been

17:00

around for so long yeah that's a long

17:02

time to be seeing the world through someone

17:04

else's eyes so at the age of

17:06

18 she released her second album again

17:08

it was a country pop called Fearless

17:10

it spent 11 weeks at number one

17:12

in the billboard that's the overall charts

17:14

not just country and it became the

17:16

top-selling album in the US in 2009

17:19

so it gave her tons of money

17:21

and also mainstream access it got her

17:23

first headline tour she had over 1.1

17:25

million people attending over the 15 months

17:27

it was going on. Yeah, and that is

17:29

a feature of her career, these mammoth tours,

17:31

which just seemed to be getting bigger and

17:33

bigger and bigger and bigger. Yeah, I

17:35

mean that first headline tour alone grossed

17:38

over 63 million dollars. And Fearless cleaned

17:40

up at the awards. She won the

17:42

Grammy for Album of the Year, the

17:44

youngest ever win that award. And memorably,

17:46

she also won Best Female

17:48

Video Video video at the

17:50

2009 MTV Video video music

17:52

music music awards. for you

17:55

belong with me which controversially

17:57

be out beyond say's single

17:59

ladies and Kanye West was not

18:01

impressed. No. As she's accepting her award

18:03

he jumps up wearing shades and says

18:05

yo Taylor I'm really happy for you

18:07

I'm let you finish but Biance had

18:09

one of the best videos of all

18:11

time and to be fair I think

18:13

he's got a point I think single

18:15

ladies was one of the greatest videos

18:18

of all time nevertheless it was a

18:20

very memorable hijacking moment. Oh yeah and

18:22

it was actually a really big deal

18:24

it got reported in every news outlet.

18:26

Obama was actually heard calling Connie a

18:28

jackass in elite audio. He was the

18:30

president of the United States at the

18:32

time. And this event, this controversy, became

18:34

one of the most talked about things

18:36

on a platform which was quite new

18:39

at that time, which was Twitter, and

18:41

it did wonders for her profile. Oh,

18:43

it did. I think it actually created

18:45

this kind of crucial turning point in

18:47

Taylor's story. You know, as one reporter

18:49

for Vox put it, it set this

18:51

narrative that Taylor Swift would always be

18:53

a pop culture victim for better or

18:55

for worse. Yeah, and the president of

18:57

Viacom, which the company that owns MTV,

19:00

said when he apologised to Scott Borchetta

19:02

the next day, Scott responded, yesterday most

19:04

of the country had no idea who

19:06

Taylor Swift was. Today, Oprah Winfrey sent

19:08

her flowers and asked if she would

19:10

talk to her on her on her

19:12

on her on her show. So even

19:14

that moment of, I mean, it must

19:16

have been a moment of extreme humiliation,

19:18

you know, turned into a triumph. Yeah,

19:21

so upward and onward, over the 2010s,

19:23

she released four more wildly successful albums

19:25

with big machine records, Speak Now, Red,

19:27

1989, and Reputation. They all debut at

19:29

number one. And her fifth album, 1989,

19:31

was her first... true pop album. So

19:33

she basically left behind those country routes

19:35

and it's also considered her most popular

19:37

album. It spent 472 weeks in the

19:39

charts. Yeah and her 1989 tour grossed

19:42

over a quarter of a billion dollars

19:44

in 2015. You remember the last one

19:46

was 63 million? It's now over 250

19:48

million. And that album changed to Korea

19:50

and kind of cemented her place as

19:52

a star who could make music on

19:54

her own terms. And she becomes a

19:56

very powerful figure in before... 1989s release

19:58

she wrote an op-ed in the Wall

20:00

Street Journal no less condemning the devaluation

20:03

of music from streaming's limited payouts because

20:05

at this point the artists were getting

20:07

less from the streamers than they would

20:09

have done from record sales in the

20:11

past and that's why they had to

20:13

go on these big tours to make

20:15

up the money. And she said music

20:17

is art and art is important and

20:19

rare. Important and rare things are valuable

20:21

and valuable things should be paid for.

20:23

Good argument. And she had a big

20:26

clash with Spotify. She said she only

20:28

wanted paid subscribers to be able to

20:30

access her music. Spotify turned it down.

20:32

So she removed her entire catalog from

20:34

Spotify including 1989. So she's prepared to

20:37

go toe-to-toe with some powerful players. Yeah,

20:39

it's really bouncy when you think of it that

20:41

way. She also wrote on Tumblr. She

20:43

criticized Apple music for not paying artists

20:45

during a free three-month trial. The following

20:47

day. Apple changed its policy. Taylor Power

20:49

right there. Swift Anonymous at work. Yeah,

20:52

and 1989 was made available on

20:54

Apple music. It's interesting how she

20:56

plays off the streamers against each other,

20:58

right? Yeah, yeah. But also, she still, even

21:00

though she's winning all of this, she always

21:02

comes out as the wrong party somehow as

21:04

the victim in this and she turns that

21:07

to advantage. And it's interesting because when

21:09

you kind of portray yourself in that

21:11

way, when you... inevitably triumph as Taylor

21:13

does all the time. You then kind

21:15

of enjoy the clout of being the

21:17

wronged party who is now enjoying their

21:19

day in the sun. So when three

21:22

years late in 2017 she announced that

21:24

the entire catalog was available again on

21:26

Spotify to thank her fans, it also

21:28

makes headlines. And that's why some people

21:30

think that there's quite a lot of...

21:32

choreography to her battles and her relationships.

21:35

She never wastes a chance or a

21:37

good bit of promotion. Her life is

21:39

her career and her career is her life. I

21:41

think that's a nice way of putting it. Yeah,

21:43

well let's talk about some of her

21:46

famous boyfriends because she's had a few.

21:48

So her personal life regularly makes the

21:50

headlines. She dates a lot of famous

21:52

guys and this began in 2008, she

21:54

dated Joe Jonas of the Jonas Brothers,

21:56

another massive pop act for a few

21:58

months and when she... was promoting Fearless

22:00

on the Ellen DeGeneres show. She

22:02

said that Forever and Always was

22:04

written about their break-up. Yeah, and

22:06

in 2009 she briefly dated Twilight

22:09

Taylor Lautner and the singer and

22:11

the blues guitar player John Mayer,

22:13

both of those inspired songs. In

22:15

2010 she dated Jake Jillenhaw, Harry

22:17

Stowers, Calvin Harris. What a roll

22:19

call that is. All have featured

22:21

in her music. In 2016, she

22:23

was papped kissing Tom Hiddleston, the

22:25

actor. So this, just like we

22:27

had Brangelina, this was Hiddleswift for

22:29

a while. So there were photo

22:31

ops. He was even spotted wearing

22:33

an I-heart TS tank top. Yeah,

22:35

speculation though that this was a

22:37

publicity stunt. And I remember the

22:39

period of her dating celebrity guys

22:41

really, really well. And I think

22:43

towards the end, especially around the

22:45

Tom Hiddleston relationship, people started getting

22:47

quite tired of the ex- over

22:49

exposure and they got really suspicious

22:51

for better or worse right because

22:53

Tom Hiddiston's always denied it was

22:55

fake. However shortly afterwards she began

22:57

her longest relationship to date even

22:59

though it is now over. It

23:01

lasted for six years and it

23:03

was with a not quite famous

23:05

person and actor Joe Owen. The

23:07

Joe Owen relationship was really kept

23:09

on the down low like compared

23:11

to you know tank tops saying

23:13

I love Taylor Swift. Maybe there's

23:15

a difference between the ones which

23:17

you... miraculously get papped kissing Tom

23:19

Hedleston but this Joe Owen one

23:21

was quite private maybe that was

23:23

a real one and the other

23:25

ones were slightly confected. One person

23:27

she didn't have a romantic relationship

23:29

was with Kanye West he's back

23:31

in the frame here because this

23:33

feud returns because he debuted his

23:35

track famous which included lyrics I

23:37

feel like me and Taylor might

23:39

still have sex why I made

23:41

that bitch famous. charming. Kanye has

23:43

made a few appearances in this

23:45

podcast, surprisingly, even though he's not

23:47

a billionaire himself. Yeah, and he

23:49

actually released a video with Taylor

23:51

Swift's face on a naked woman

23:53

in bed with a naked Kanye

23:55

and Kim. But he maintains, didn't

23:57

he, that he'd got her permission

23:59

and had a long... phone call

24:01

about this in which she approved,

24:03

specifically approved that lyric. Yeah, so

24:05

this is interesting. Kim Kardashian, who

24:08

was at the time married

24:10

to Connie, told you Q that Taylor totally

24:12

approved that as in the lyric she totally

24:14

knew that that was coming out she wanted

24:16

to all of a sudden at like she

24:18

didn't and Kim followed that up with releasing

24:20

a video of the phone call itself and

24:23

you can hear Kanye telling Taylor about the

24:25

line I feel like me and Taylor might

24:27

still have sex to which Taylor responds it's

24:29

like a compliment and if people asked me

24:31

about it I think it would be great

24:33

for me to be like he called me

24:35

and told me before it came out jokes

24:37

on you guys were fine so after Kim

24:40

released the video of this phone

24:42

call. Hashtag Kim exposed Taylor party

24:44

started trending on Twitter, you know,

24:46

the backlash started brewing against her,

24:48

people started thinking, oh, is Taylor

24:50

manufacturing stuff? Is she just lying?

24:52

Taylor says the video is very selectively

24:54

edited and she asked the question, where's

24:56

the video of can you telling me

24:59

he was going to call me that

25:01

bitch in his song? It doesn't exist

25:03

because it never happened. And this was not

25:05

the only guy that she was fighting on

25:07

the public arena. So in 2013. The radio

25:09

DJ David Miller was sacked after she complained

25:12

that he'd groped her at a meeting greet.

25:14

Yeah, he sued her for three million

25:16

dollars in damages claiming he'd been falsely

25:18

accused that she'd ruined his career, but

25:21

his case was dismissed and in fact

25:23

she then countersued claiming he'd sexually assaulted

25:25

her. She took the stand in

25:27

court in 2017, so around the

25:30

same time as Hocaniac-Kimfield, and said,

25:32

you're supposed to be really polite

25:34

to everyone. Something snapped, I think.

25:36

And the jury ruled in her favour,

25:38

and she asked him to pay $1

25:40

to her in symbolic damages. It's the

25:42

point of principle that she wants to

25:44

prove. We should say this is two

25:46

months before. the Me Too movement really

25:48

got going. So this was a precursor

25:51

to some of that. And these kind of

25:53

public battles, they kind of set the scene

25:55

for what is now the big drama that

25:57

goes on to kind of completely

25:59

redefine. her public image in

26:01

the 20-20s. So we come

26:04

to 2018. Her record deal

26:06

with Big Machine expires. She's

26:09

been with them since she was

26:11

15. She moves to a new

26:13

record label, Republic Records, and as

26:15

part of the new deal with

26:17

Republic Records, she's going to own

26:20

all her masters going forward. But

26:22

her old masters... are still under

26:24

the ownership of Big Machine. And

26:26

then Pivitably, in 2019, Big Machine

26:28

gets bought by a music executive

26:30

called Scooter Braun. He's 38 years

26:32

old. He's the guy who discovered

26:35

Justin Bieber on YouTube. He also

26:37

was managing Ariana Grande, Demi Lovato,

26:39

and Kanye West for a couple

26:41

of years during the whole famous

26:43

saga. So Scooter Braun now effectively

26:45

owns the copyright to her six-album

26:47

master catalog, which even then was

26:50

valued at $140 million. So just

26:52

to remind you, Taylor still gets

26:54

the songwriter royalties, but now Scooter

26:56

has the ability to decide that

26:58

if these songs are used in

27:00

ads or films, he will be

27:03

the one who gets paid the

27:05

master royalties. This is not that

27:07

uncommon. Quite a lot of artists,

27:09

Neil Young, Bruce Springsteen, even Bob

27:11

Dylan, actually sell the copyright to

27:13

their recordings and they get paid

27:15

now and the people who buy

27:18

it will get the royalties many,

27:20

many years into the future. So

27:22

he essentially owns her back catalog.

27:24

But when the sale was announced,

27:26

Taylor posted on Tumblr and said

27:28

that this was her worst case

27:30

scenario, all I could think about,

27:33

she says, was the incessant manipulative

27:35

bullying I've received at its hands

27:37

for years. You know, from Taylor's

27:39

perspective, Scooter Braun was managing Connie

27:41

West during the time of the

27:43

whole famous, you know, track and

27:46

video fallout. So essentially, the way

27:48

she sees it is that... He

27:50

wanted to control a woman who

27:52

didn't want to be associated with

27:54

them through the use and ownership

27:56

of her master. records. Got it,

27:58

okay. Justin Beba comes to scooter's

28:01

defense questioning Taylor's reason for the

28:03

post. What were you trying to

28:05

accomplish by posting that blog? It

28:07

seems to me it was to

28:09

get sympathy. You also knew that

28:11

in posting that your fans would

28:13

go and bully scooter. And she also

28:16

revealed why she changed labels from Big Machine.

28:18

She said, for years I pleaded for a

28:20

chance to own my work. Instead, I was

28:22

given an opportunity to sign back up to

28:24

Big Machine Records and earn one album of

28:27

my own back at a time for every

28:29

new one I turned in. I walked away

28:31

because I knew once I signed that contract,

28:33

Scott Borchetta, would sell the label there by

28:35

selling me and my future. I had to

28:38

make the excruciating choice to leave behind my

28:40

past. But as we'll find, she goes back

28:42

to reclaim reclaim it. So Scott Bejetta

28:44

has always disputed this. You know,

28:46

he's posted screenshots of negotiation documents

28:49

of Swiss team that would give

28:51

her control of her own masters

28:53

upon signing. And he also claims

28:55

that Taylor's father was informed because he's

28:57

of course the shareholder. All of this makes

29:00

the headlines and Taylor ended her long post.

29:02

Love her will be out August the 23rd.

29:04

So once again, when she's in the public

29:06

eye, she'll just drop a little promo in.

29:09

Keep a look out for this. It's very

29:11

canny. I feel like most people's natural

29:13

reaction to something terrible happening to them

29:15

is to climb up and be silent.

29:17

And Taylor just doesn't do that. No.

29:20

And that album, Lover, and all 18

29:22

songs from it, charted on the US

29:24

Billboard singles chart in the same week,

29:26

that sets another record for the most

29:28

simultaneous entries by a woman, something which

29:30

is only really possible, I suppose, in

29:32

the age of streaming. So we come to

29:35

the end of 2019. She's 30 years old.

29:37

She's worth around... 360 million dollars and then

29:39

the pandemic hits and she has to cancel

29:42

the lover to her. Yeah but she

29:44

releases two quarantine albums if you like

29:46

in 2020 folklore and evermore and people

29:48

think that this sort of suited the

29:50

mood of the time do you remember

29:53

it? I listened a lot to

29:55

folklore in the pandemic. She worked

29:57

with you know really credible indie

29:59

artists. like the National and Bonneva and

30:01

I think it really kind of... created

30:03

a kind of national shift in the

30:05

way people viewed Taylor. So I talked

30:08

a bit about how, you know, her

30:10

over-exposure, her dating history, all of this

30:12

has kind of made her vulnerable to

30:14

a lot of criticism. There was a

30:16

big backlash. I mean, if you look

30:18

at the media from the time people

30:20

were publishing articles with headlines like how

30:22

Taylor Swift played the victim for a

30:24

decade and made it entire career, when

30:26

did you realized Taylor Swift was lying

30:28

to you? kind of in danger of

30:30

becoming overplayed. You know, and there was

30:33

a point where she could have really

30:35

lost that momentum. So that change in

30:37

tone for folklore actually was pretty well

30:39

judged and in fact brought her quite

30:41

a bit of critical acclaim. She was

30:43

a pop sensation for sure, but there

30:45

was a sort of maturity and a

30:47

critical acclaim for this one. Yeah, and

30:49

also importantly, what she's always said about...

30:51

the albums is that they're fictional so

30:53

they're not based on her real life

30:55

it's kind of stuff she made up

30:58

during the pandemic right so she's kind

31:00

of distancing herself from the old Taylor

31:02

who used to let her public life

31:04

fuel her songwriting and make people obsess

31:06

over is a song about carnier is

31:08

a song about Harry's stuff she's kind

31:10

of left it behind with these two

31:12

albums so she's kind of pivoted a

31:14

little way here but still moving on

31:16

like a commercial jog sort of Taylor

31:18

Swift is too big to fail and

31:21

at this point she does something truly

31:23

audacious. She decides to re-record her first

31:25

six albums, the ones that are owned

31:27

by Scooter Braun. That is quite a

31:29

move. I'd never come across that because

31:31

I remember that story coming out. I

31:33

thought... I wonder if anyone else has

31:35

ever done that, because there have been

31:37

big bust-ups between artists and their labels

31:39

before. You remember what happened with Prince,

31:41

of course? George Michael had a big

31:43

fight with his record label. This is

31:46

a master stroke. It's like, well, master,

31:48

literally using the word. If I can't

31:50

own the masters to my... I'll go

31:52

back and re-record them, identically, so that

31:54

I do own them. And they're called

31:56

Taylor's versions, aren't they? Yes, they are.

31:58

And it's a... If you're

32:00

a true fan, you

32:02

will listen to Taylor's version, you no

32:04

longer listen to versions that are now

32:06

owned by Scooter. And that's asking quite a

32:08

lot of your fans, is asking them to go out

32:11

and buy again something they've already paid for, so

32:13

that's some loyalty they're showing there. It's interesting,

32:15

because when I first heard about her re

32:17

-recording the albums, I kind of thought to

32:19

myself, oh, what's the point, right? You know,

32:21

you've already done this, surely it's kind of

32:23

artistically not very creative or fulfilling for you,

32:25

but of course it gets a lot of

32:27

money in. So she begins releasing these

32:29

re -recorded albums in 2021 and every

32:31

single one of them makes number one

32:33

all over again. Yeah, she's only

32:35

on number four out of six. So

32:37

let's bring it up to date

32:40

now. In March of last year, this

32:42

massive carousel which careers around the

32:44

world begins, the Ears Tour, and what

32:46

is that again? What does it

32:48

consist of? It's a retrospective, so

32:50

she's singing songs from ten studio

32:52

albums, the setlist is a mammoth,

32:55

44 songs long, and it lasts

32:57

three and a half hours. I

32:59

mean, she's got some stamina to do that,

33:01

hasn't she? Oh yeah. She's

33:03

a high -energy performer, and doing that

33:05

for three and a half hours, this

33:07

is 150 stadium shows, and they keep

33:10

adding new ones, it's still rumbling on

33:12

around the world, this is still going

33:14

on as we speak. And it's

33:16

sold out in record time, so if

33:18

you try to get your hands on

33:20

a Taylor Swift Eras ticket, you will

33:22

know they were kind of averaging around

33:24

$250, but many paid far more on

33:27

the resale market, and it's already the

33:29

highest grossing tour of all time. Yeah, I

33:31

remember these big tours, they remember when Pink

33:33

Floyd used to have the highest grossing tour, then

33:35

it was U2, now she has definitely taken

33:37

the correct to the first tour ever to surpass

33:39

a billion dollars in revenue. And as

33:41

you've pointed out, it's created

33:43

this financial phenomenon, the Taylor

33:46

Swift effect, or Swiftonomics. When

33:48

the Taylor Swift show rolls into town,

33:50

it makes huge revenue for each

33:52

city. The 53 US shows

33:54

alone added an estimated

33:56

$4 .3 billion to

33:58

America's G. gross GDP. Looking

34:00

for another opportunity she also funded and

34:03

released the era's tour concert movie. So

34:05

if you couldn't get to the show

34:07

itself you can go and watch the

34:09

movie and the movie did incredibly well

34:11

as well. Yeah it made a hundred

34:13

million dollars in global pre-sales alone and

34:15

became the tenth highest grossing film of

34:17

2023 in the states. I mean that

34:19

is just crazy that you can just

34:21

oh by the way let's make another

34:23

hundred million by releasing a video of

34:25

the tour. Astonishing. So I mean it really

34:27

is the kind of climaxax of climaxax of...

34:29

what live music can do and how much money

34:32

it can make in a post-streaming world. It's a

34:34

far cry this business model from the old one

34:36

where, you know, the Rolling Stones or the Beatles

34:38

would write an album, go into the studio, record

34:40

it, and then go and sit at home for

34:42

the next two years and let the money roll

34:45

in. You've got to work hard for your money,

34:47

but if you do it right, like Taylor Swift

34:49

is doing, it can be incredibly lucrative. Because you're

34:51

not making the same kind of money on album

34:53

money on album sales on album sales that you...

34:55

used to. So, you know, in my day, I'd

34:57

buy a CD, it cost me 14 pounds 99.

35:00

You've sold tens of millions of those albums, that's

35:02

a lot of money. With streaming, you get

35:04

fractions of a cent for every streaming

35:06

thing. What's interesting about this is that

35:08

when I was a kid and I

35:10

went in, I bought my 1499 album

35:13

from Dalit Smiths or Tower Records, my

35:15

financial relationship with that band... is now

35:17

over, effectively, until they release another album.

35:19

That's how I'm done, was with streaming

35:21

and with social media, the relationship. You

35:24

have to keep it alive all the

35:26

time. And I knew someone who was

35:28

in a pop band, and they said,

35:30

actually, you've got to keep feeding the

35:32

social thing. You have to keep that

35:35

relationship up. They want to know what

35:37

you're doing. They want to know what

35:39

your car you drive, what clothes are

35:41

wearing. That relationship has to be fostered

35:43

and nurtured and fed and fed

35:46

incessantly. Even before the era's tour,

35:48

she was doing things like sending presents

35:50

to fans, unexpectedly turning up at some

35:52

random person's wedding as a kind of

35:55

like surprise. You know, she's... If you

35:57

were the bride at this wedding, would

35:59

you be... slightly pissed off that Taylor

36:01

Swift comes and said it depends on

36:04

how much of a Swifty I am

36:06

and it also kind of probably depends

36:08

on the partner and what they think

36:10

of Taylor Swift So, I mean, the

36:13

money is rolling in, she's raking it

36:15

in, in October of 2023, Bloomberg and

36:17

Forbes declared Taylor Swift was a billionaire

36:19

with 1.1 billion dollars due to that

36:22

era's tour and the movie, plus the

36:24

release of Taylor's version album of those

36:26

back albums. So they estimate she's gotten

36:28

500 million from music royalties and touring,

36:31

a 125 million from real estate, she

36:33

has six homes in a 10 million

36:35

dollar private plane, and 500 million based

36:37

on the rising value of her music

36:40

category. and actually she's the only one

36:42

of four musicians to have achieved billionaire

36:44

status and we've done some of them

36:46

on the show but they they made

36:49

their big money outside of the music

36:51

Jay-Z with his booze brands Riana with

36:53

Fenty Beauty Jimmy Buffett has his Margaritaville

36:55

which is a chain of resorts based

36:58

on his famous song she is the

37:00

first billionaire from the music alone I

37:02

mean, it's kind of inspirational when you

37:04

think about it, because when you're a

37:07

musician, you just want to make music,

37:09

right? Kind of don't really want to

37:11

get into other brands. You don't want

37:13

to own a random resort chain, but

37:16

Taylor's the one who made it all

37:18

through music. Not only is she a

37:20

newly minted billionaire, she's now got a

37:22

new relationship with the NFL American football

37:25

player, Travis Kelsey. So again, the internet

37:27

was buzzing with rumors about whether the

37:29

relationship with this was a piaus stunt

37:31

But it turns out that whether or

37:34

not it is or isn't the tailor

37:36

effect works for Travis So there's been

37:38

a 400% increase in his Jersey cells

37:40

He's gained millions of followers and even

37:43

viewing figures for the NFL have improved

37:45

and this year. She's going to make

37:47

even more money as she tours Asia

37:49

Australia and Europe It's estimated the tool

37:52

will net her four billion dollars in

37:54

total So she may very well be

37:56

quadrupling her wealth in the next few

37:58

years. Yeah. Are we at peak, Taylor

38:01

Swift? We've got to be pretty close,

38:03

haven't we? There was a point. Probably

38:05

when she was in danger of being

38:07

overexposed and people were like, we've reached

38:10

Pete Taylor Swift. Nobody wants to hear

38:12

about her and Tom Hiddiston, who cares,

38:14

blah blah blah. And then, lo and

38:16

behold, we reached a new level of

38:19

Taylor Swift obsession. I know. So I

38:21

think, you know, the bar is pretty

38:23

high. I mean, you've got to think

38:25

in many ways, the only way is

38:27

down from here because she is already

38:30

the most famous person in the world.

38:32

Her tours are the highest grossing tours

38:34

of all time. I think it will

38:36

depend on where she goes as a

38:39

songwriter, because she is a great songwriter.

38:41

You know, if you listen to more

38:43

strip-back albums, like folklore, she knows her

38:45

way around a really good song. And

38:48

when she kind of takes it all

38:50

the way back to just that artistry,

38:52

her songs really, really stand up for

38:54

the test of time. So I think

38:57

it depends if she grows as an

38:59

artist. If she goes back to the

39:01

old Taylor Swift of, you know, writing

39:03

wrongs through music and, you know, big

39:06

public spasprong. Yeah, I don't think it's

39:08

going to go well, but if she

39:10

evolves as an artist, yeah, I think

39:12

the sky's a limit. Have I already

39:15

said this? I think that Shake It

39:17

Off is one of the best pop

39:19

songs ever written. No, you have it,

39:21

but that's good to get on record.

39:24

Okay, it's irresistible. So, we rank these

39:26

from one to ten. How does she

39:28

score on wealth? Well, she's the richest

39:30

musician who's made their riches through the

39:33

music ever. But in terms of the

39:35

billionaires we've covered, she's at the lower

39:37

end of the wealth category. She's nowhere

39:39

near a kind of Elon Musk. But

39:42

Bloomberg... said, taken together, swift ink, as

39:44

they describe her, is essentially a multinational

39:46

conglomerate with the world's most devoted customer

39:48

base. It's a most charismatic CEO and

39:51

significant economic power. I'm going to give

39:53

her a six for wealth. See, I

39:55

kind of feel like, apart from the

39:57

private jets, which I want to talk

40:00

about later on... She doesn't actually wear

40:02

her wealth that ostentatiously. No. Certainly not

40:04

in the same way, you know, Elon

40:06

Muskwood, for instance. She's not riding rockets

40:09

to the moon. Yeah. And she still

40:11

has got that kind of girl next

40:13

door kind of thing. I understand your

40:15

pain. You and I can be friends.

40:17

You know, there's nothing. She tells she's

40:19

not trying to be aloof or exclusive.

40:21

No. So actually I would give her a

40:23

four out of ten for this. Like she's

40:25

got a long way to go. the top

40:27

100 billionaires best. Fair enough, I'm going

40:30

to revise mine down to five,

40:32

so you're a four, you've convinced

40:34

me, I'm a five. Now let's

40:36

talk about Rags to Riches, this

40:38

is how far they've come. And

40:40

this one I don't think she

40:42

schools that highly either, because her

40:44

dad was a stockbroker, came from

40:46

a long line of bank presidents,

40:49

and they had a pretty nice

40:51

life. Yeah, and I feel like

40:53

the whole kind of folksy, Miss

40:55

and Maricana persona. If she

40:57

hadn't moved to Nashville, she

41:00

probably couldn't play that card,

41:02

really. No. Rags to riches. Two.

41:04

Maybe not riches but depth of

41:06

fame? Rags to fame. She's probably the

41:08

most famous person in the world. I'm

41:10

going to slightly revise yours up to

41:13

a three for me. Okay. Villeney. Now

41:15

this is an interesting one. This is

41:17

like, you know, have they done people

41:19

over on their way to success? Have

41:21

they played pretty fast and loose morally

41:23

with how they've got there? And she's

41:25

had plenty of public feuds, that's for

41:27

sure. Yeah, definitely. So obviously, Connie

41:30

Connie Connie, scoota bran, by extension.

41:32

Katie Perry bad blood that was

41:34

about Katie Perry wasn't it? Yeah well

41:37

interestingly there's been a lot of subtle

41:39

comments made but nobody's ever come out

41:41

and said besides Connie I'm in a

41:43

feud with Taylor Swift but what she

41:46

does is she always looks like the

41:48

kind of wronged party who triumphs over

41:50

adversity in the end and rightly so

41:52

she managed to just come out on

41:55

top. I wonder if this is and

41:57

you know maybe this is a generous

41:59

interpretation. If this is just how women need to

42:01

portray themselves in order to win, like maybe there's

42:03

a tailor who is just like, yeah, I'm going

42:05

to knife people and I'm going to enjoy doing

42:07

it because that's what the guys do. And that's

42:10

what a lot of Fortune 500 billionaires probably do

42:12

all the time because that's what you need to

42:14

win. But if you're a woman and your persona

42:16

is, you know, this folksy Miss Americana hero, you

42:18

probably can't get away with doing that. So you

42:20

probably have to make yourself out to be a

42:22

victim to be a victim. And also, these feuds

42:24

are very much the oxygen of her PL machine,

42:26

aren't they? They keep it kind of on the

42:28

road. People are endlessly speculating who she having a

42:30

fight with now. There is a commercial value to

42:32

these spats. Yeah, and also, you know, the whole

42:34

relationship stuff, you know, she, people do speculate all

42:36

the time about Easter eggs left in her lyrics

42:38

and her album art. You know, is this about,

42:41

you know, this guy in particular... So she's very

42:43

canny about playing her fan base in that way.

42:45

I think one thing we can definitely sort of

42:47

have a question mark about is that she's got

42:49

with this era's tour she's got one hell of

42:51

a carbon footprint. Yes, yeah she does. Interestingly, this

42:53

relationship with Travis Kelsey has come under a lot

42:55

of scrutiny because they are constantly using private jets

42:57

to fly around to see each other. Two private

42:59

jets, she's made 170 journeys in six months, and

43:01

someone's done the calculations, that's 8,000 tons and carbon

43:03

emissions, and that makes her 637 times bigger carbon

43:05

footprint than the average person in the US. Yeah,

43:07

she's estimated to have the largest carbon footprint of

43:09

any celebrity. You can't go on well tools without,

43:12

you know, without doing this. of stuff but there

43:14

we go. Villene, I don't know. I feel that

43:16

some of the villainy is slightly confected because it

43:18

gives the oxygen of social media and people are

43:20

obsessed by it and it serves a purpose. She

43:22

doesn't come across to me as like a sort

43:24

of, you know, devious person. So I don't know,

43:26

this is a hazardous category with an army of

43:28

Swift's out there. I'm going to let you go

43:30

first. Okay, so I actually think that the whole

43:32

kind of... Taylor manufactures all

43:34

of this stuff, you know,

43:36

she's just playing everyone

43:38

for fools. I mean, look,

43:40

at the time, she

43:43

was dating tons of guys,

43:45

she was in her

43:47

20s and 30s. Whomst among

43:49

us hasn't been there?

43:51

If I was a multi

43:53

-million dollar celebrity artist, I

43:55

would 100 % be writing

43:57

songs about all these

43:59

guys. It's interesting that when

44:01

it came to a

44:03

more serious relationship with Joel

44:05

Alwyn, that was kind

44:07

of kept off the books

44:09

significantly more. Can you

44:11

really blame a songwriter for

44:14

using her real life

44:16

of material? No. Yeah, exactly.

44:18

So for me, she

44:20

doesn't score very highly for

44:22

that, but the private

44:24

jet stuff, come on, Taylor,

44:26

at least plant a

44:28

few for rainforests. I know

44:30

you could do it.

44:32

So for the private jet

44:34

stuff alone, the carbon

44:36

stuff alone, I'd give her

44:38

a four out of

44:40

ten. Four out of ten.

44:42

I'm happy there as

44:45

well. I don't want to

44:47

be an outlier from

44:49

you in any way. Just

44:53

in case we're going down,

44:55

we're going down together. OK, well,

44:57

here's the category where maybe

44:59

Taylor can redeem herself, philanthropy. Yeah,

45:01

she's been nominated to a

45:03

range of charities with resonance to

45:05

her particularly. She gave a

45:07

million dollars to a tornado recovery

45:09

fund in Nashville, a million

45:11

dollars to flood relief in Louisiana,

45:13

and 50 ,000 to New York

45:15

City public schools. 50 ,000 seems

45:17

like a pretty low number.

45:19

She also has donated to People's

45:21

Go Fund Me. She donated

45:23

13K in 2020 to a mother

45:25

who was struggling to pay

45:27

the bills during the pandemic. She

45:30

donated 50K in 2021 to

45:32

a family whose father died of

45:34

COVID -19. And she looks after

45:36

her own. She reportedly gave

45:38

every member of her ERA's tour

45:40

crew bonuses, totaling over 55

45:42

million dollars, including 100 ,000 each

45:44

to the truckers. I have a

45:46

good story about this. I

45:48

don't know if you can put

45:50

it in because it's definitely

45:52

not verified. So a friend of

45:54

a friend worked on the

45:56

ERA's tour, and at the time

45:58

they were giving out these

46:00

big bonuses, he got called in

46:02

to a room with Taylor

46:04

and, you know, the rest of

46:06

the big bosses and he

46:08

got given a check. and he looked down

46:11

and he saw $5,000 and he was like, oh cheers, thanks

46:13

very much. And everyone in the room started looking each other

46:15

like, okay, what's, okay. And he walked out like whistling a

46:17

tune being like five grand, great, can go on a nice

46:19

holiday. and a corridor was full of people weeping calling families

46:21

being like we can finally afford the deposit on the house

46:23

and he looked at his check again and realized he'd missed

46:25

out the zeros and he'd been given 50K 50,000

46:27

yeah wow that is a good story

46:29

so philanthropy I don't know million dollars

46:31

here a million dollars there and very

46:33

good to her own people on the

46:35

tour I'd still think it's only a

46:37

five yeah I'd put it straight down

46:39

the line five out of ten she

46:41

Too far she probably hasn't even started

46:44

really thinking about it, right? She's not

46:46

even really in the Oprah Winfrey level

46:48

of her fame yet, where you're thinking

46:50

about foundations and things. Correct. I'm sure

46:52

that'll come though. We've got plenty of

46:54

time to be a more generous tailor

46:57

if you're listening. Power. I think, I

46:59

mean, we've already discussed this, that she

47:01

can actually change the economic level

47:03

of activity when her tour rolls into

47:06

town. the Federal Reserve was saying she's

47:08

boosted GDP in the US. That's quite

47:10

an effect. An economist actually told the

47:12

BBC, cities are constantly strapped for cash,

47:15

so the impact of the Taylor Swift

47:17

economy is that cities will have the

47:19

revenue to invest in public infrastructure, transit

47:22

safety and planning. So if the potho

47:24

in your road gets fixed, maybe

47:26

you can thank Taylor Swift. Amazing.

47:28

So there's economic power. There's economic

47:30

power. She's had quite an impact

47:32

on that, particularly in getting people

47:34

to register to vote. Yeah, so in

47:37

2018, 160,000 people registered to vote 48

47:39

hours after she weighed in on American

47:41

politics. She was previously pretty kind of

47:43

stum on any kind of politics. She

47:45

actually declared her support for the Democratic

47:47

candidate in the mid-term election in her

47:49

home state of Tennessee and spurred a

47:51

ton of people to vote. Interesting, because

47:54

country music and their heartlands of

47:56

country music is generally considered to

47:58

be more Republican lead. So she's a

48:00

bit of an odd fit there. Yeah, she's a bit of

48:02

an outlier, which I think makes her political influence even more

48:04

important because, you know, she's basically one in a very, very

48:07

empty field of Democrat-leaning country music singers. In fact, Donald Trump

48:09

was forced to comment on Taylor Swift. He said, I like

48:11

her music about 25% less now. Very specific. Unfortunately, however, Taylor's

48:13

candidate lost, but now she is on record as being a

48:15

Democrat supporter. So if you've got presidents commenting on her, you've

48:17

got Barack Obama calling Kenny a jackass when he tried to

48:20

interrupt her, you've got people registering to vote for the first

48:22

time, she's a powerful person. I mean, if she goes out

48:24

on, it gets behind a cause or a subject, then she

48:26

can move the needle on it. I'm going over an eight

48:28

for power. I would give her... a nine, but part of

48:31

that is based on my idea that she could probably do

48:33

a lot more. You know, like she's been quite quiet about

48:35

politics, like, you know, in the last... few years. I expect

48:37

for this year she's probably going to start becoming more vocal

48:39

and then we'll really see... Because we're in an election year

48:41

in the US. Exactly. An election year, you know, in tons

48:44

of countries. So I think we're going to really see the

48:46

extent of that power play out this year. But that is

48:48

a potential banana skin, isn't it? I mean, when people get

48:50

involved in politics, because you're possibly going to alienate 50% your

48:52

fans. It is. And actually there's a really interesting part in

48:54

the documentary that she made, Miss Americana, where she has almost

48:57

a screaming argument with her management team about her support for

48:59

the Democrats. And she really does not like Trump at all.

49:01

She's arguing with them about coming out politically as a Democrat.

49:03

And it's really interesting because yeah, all those arguments come up,

49:05

but she's very firm about the fact that she has to

49:08

say something. So expect 2024, we're going to see her become

49:10

a bit more vocal again. kind of too

49:12

soon to write this one

49:14

yet isn't it? I think when

49:16

it comes to legacy she's

49:18

going to not just have a

49:21

cultural legacy but also a

49:23

legacy that will be really important

49:25

for the music industry because

49:27

interestingly when the big machine records

49:29

still expired when in 2018

49:31

she signed this new big multi

49:34

album deal with Republic Records

49:36

which is part of Universal and

49:38

she made it a condition

49:40

of that contract that if Universal

49:42

sold its Spotify shares the

49:44

label would distribute money from that

49:47

sale to all the artists

49:49

it represents non -recoupable which basically

49:51

means that it won't count against

49:53

their advances and this was

49:55

a really big deal to her

49:58

apparently it meant more to

50:00

her than any other bit of

50:02

the deal. So she was

50:04

trying to make sure that other

50:06

artists got more revenue than

50:08

was normally the case. Exactly and

50:11

I think that if Taylor

50:13

is going to get more involved

50:15

in the whole you know

50:17

argument that artists should own more

50:19

of their recordings they should

50:21

make money from their art I

50:24

think she's going to have

50:26

a really huge impact on the

50:28

music industry for years to

50:30

come for decades. And also just

50:32

the economic model she's got

50:35

of the mega tour the movie

50:37

of the mega tour all

50:39

that kind of stuff that she's

50:41

set a kind of template

50:43

for how the music business can

50:45

should and if you're famous

50:48

enough can work for you well

50:50

at the same time giving

50:52

the artists a bigger slice of

50:54

the pie. Yeah I think

50:56

if you're an emerging artist and

50:58

you want to be the

51:01

next Taylor Swift you're going to

51:03

look at the business model

51:05

and the way she's negotiated all

51:07

those master recordings and think

51:09

to yourself okay I don't need

51:11

to sign away my life

51:14

here I can do a Taylor

51:16

and I think that's going

51:18

to be really influential I think

51:20

that's going to be a

51:22

big part of her legacy. That's

51:25

really really interesting you say

51:27

that I agree with you I

51:29

would say yeah for that

51:31

she scores pretty highly I'm going

51:33

to give her eight for

51:35

legacy. I would give her an

51:38

eight for legacy too and

51:40

you know she's got two more

51:42

points to win in the

51:44

next 40 odd years of her

51:46

career I think she could

51:48

do it. She could make it

51:51

ten maybe we should come

51:53

back and revisit this one in

51:55

ten years time and see

51:57

and see what's happened there. have

52:00

to judge her, Zing, this is

52:02

the dangerous part of the recording.

52:05

Is Taylor Swift good, bad, or

52:07

just another billionaire? Oh, you know

52:09

what? I will hold my hands up

52:11

and say I'm not a swiftly. I

52:13

don't know much of her early

52:16

records, but for the sheer amount

52:18

of comfort that folklore gave to

52:20

me during the pandemic. And also

52:22

the fact that I think she's

52:24

really pioneered in your way of

52:26

being an artist and a brand,

52:28

which I think is especially... persuasive

52:31

and influential for young women. I

52:33

think she's got to be good.

52:35

Yeah, who are you kidding? There's an

52:37

army of Swifties out there. Of course

52:39

she's good. No, I think you're right.

52:41

She's basically really left her stamp on

52:43

the music industry. She's got legions of

52:45

adoring fans. She's a fantastic songwriter. Have

52:47

I mentioned this already that Shake it

52:49

off is the greatest pop song ever

52:51

recent. You can mention it again? So

52:53

for all those reasons. Who are we

52:55

kidding? Taylor Swift is good. All she needs

52:57

to do is stop using the private jet so

52:59

much. So

53:05

there we go, that was Taylor Swift, one

53:07

of our good billionaires. We'll be back in

53:09

a couple of weeks, revisiting another of our

53:11

favorite episodes. And don't forget that we'll be

53:13

back on March the 17th with a brand

53:15

new season. Yeah, we've got some super

53:18

famous billionaires lined up for that. But

53:20

if you can't wait that long, there

53:22

are lots of great episodes available to

53:24

listen right now, including ones on a

53:26

couple more incredibly rich musicians, Riana and

53:28

Jay. Thanks for

53:30

listening to Good Bad

53:32

Billionaire. This podcast is

53:35

produced by Hannah Herford

53:37

and Mark Ward. James

53:39

Cook is our editor and it's

53:41

a BBC audio production.

53:44

Yoga is more than just

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53:49

that millions swear by. And

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in 2017, Miranda... A university

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The passport being taken, the

54:28

being... in a house and

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not feeling like they can

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leave. World of Secrets is

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where untold stories are unveiled

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and hidden realities are exposed.

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In this new series we're

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confronting the dark side of

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the wellness industry with the

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hope of a spiritual breakthrough

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You just get sucked in

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The secret that's there, I

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back the power. World

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of Secrets season six the

55:54

bad guru listen wherever you

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