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because he often says that he doesn't

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now. My name is Mike Cuban Garner.

1:08

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Save with conrad.com. Hey,

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and you're listening

1:25

to Krill and JR.

1:28

We couldn't do it without

1:30

the Hall of Famer himself,

1:32

the voice of wrestling. Mr.

1:35

Jim Ross. Jim, how are you man?

1:37

I'm Brett Conrad. Good to see

1:39

you this morning. Your cheeks

1:42

are as luscious and modacious

1:44

as usual. Life is

1:46

good. And it seems like we

1:48

got an interesting topic

1:50

today with Lex Lugar. Yeah.

1:52

A lot of ways to look at

1:54

Lex's career and him as a human

1:57

being and all that good stuff.

2:00

He's going to be turning 63

2:02

on June 2nd. So it's a

2:05

little early birthday for him today

2:07

as we're talking about him. And

2:09

Lex is probably one of the

2:12

great stories in wrestling, from who

2:14

he was to who he is.

2:16

My goodness, what a person. And

2:19

we're going to start from the

2:21

very beginning. Born in Buffalo, New

2:23

York. Lawrence Full, his entering into

2:26

the world of pro wrestling, like

2:28

a lot of guys did back

2:30

then. College football. College football. When

2:33

was Lex on your radar? Only

2:35

when he started in Florida or

2:37

did you actually remember him as

2:40

a ball player? When he started

2:42

in Florida. Yeah. And I knew

2:44

that the Florida office was very

2:47

high on him. I mean, why

2:49

wouldn't it be? Look at him.

2:51

He's got the look at every

2:54

promoter. I'm missing this on about

2:56

Wardlow the other day. We had

2:58

one of our shows. But I

3:01

believe are somewhere we talked about

3:03

Wardlow. Anyhow, that's how I remember

3:05

shit. I don't remember who the

3:08

hell is... There are a lot

3:10

of conversations. But I said something

3:12

along the lines that word low

3:15

is what every promoter that I've

3:17

ever worked for. He had the

3:19

look and the basic makeup of

3:22

a star. Right. I think I'm

3:24

right on that. Now will he

3:26

be a star? Will he be

3:29

the top guy at AEW someday?

3:31

I think that he's got a

3:34

good chance at it. But I

3:36

believe that he's got all the

3:38

tools. And Lex Lugar at that

3:41

time, when he started training with

3:43

Matsuda, had all the tools. You

3:45

know, he explored all his options

3:48

in football, you know, a little

3:50

cup of coffee here, a little

3:52

cup of coffee there, but let's

3:55

not forget that we dismissed that

3:57

like it's not a big deal.

3:59

Like you and I could go

4:02

do that. Well, we could have

4:04

had a couple of coffee that

4:06

got signed. Let's mention that though.

4:09

He starts at Penn State. We've

4:11

got some listeners. across the pond,

4:13

Jim, who may not be familiar

4:16

with Penn State's college football pedigree.

4:18

But in the 80s, Penn State

4:20

was the real deal, right? Yeah,

4:23

they were a juggernaut. And Happy

4:25

Valley was a special place. That's

4:27

what they call their area. And

4:30

they're in, what is that town

4:32

they're in? Happy Valley. I don't

4:34

know, that's the stadium. State College.

4:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah. State College Pennsylvania.

4:39

So for those that aren't familiar

4:41

with college football, it's a football,

4:44

college football powerhouse. Yes. It was

4:46

led for years and years by

4:48

the late Joe Paterno and who

4:51

died of cancer and amidst controversy

4:53

unfortunately. So Lex, he was, he

4:55

came out of high school with

4:58

all credentials. And again, he was.

5:00

He came out of high school

5:02

with all credentials. And again, he

5:05

was. big and long and tall

5:07

and strong and so you know

5:10

but I didn't catch I didn't

5:12

know about him until he got

5:14

to the pro-ressing business I was

5:17

a I lived in Oklahoma and

5:19

if you went to Oklahoma I

5:21

could tell you all about it

5:24

because I would have been more

5:26

aware of the topic so but

5:28

when Matt's I knew here's what

5:31

I didn't know I knew that

5:33

when the Lex was assigned to

5:35

that the office was very serious,

5:38

that he was going to be

5:40

a big star. And of course,

5:42

if you remember, there was another

5:45

guy that Matt Stewart trained, it

5:47

turned out to be a pretty

5:49

good hand, named Hulk Hogan. And

5:52

you know, Matt Soota punished Hogan,

5:54

and he broke his ankle or

5:56

something. But Matt Soota was a

5:59

great guy, not because he broke

6:01

his ankle, he broke his ankle

6:03

or something. But Matt Soota was

6:06

a great guy, not because he

6:08

broke Because he was a good

6:10

man and held a hand and

6:13

I grew Because he was Danny

6:15

Hodges, biggest rival for the NWA

6:17

Junior heavyweight championship. So yeah, I

6:20

just, Alex was, he had all

6:22

the tools to be recruited, signed,

6:24

and then to get actively be

6:27

trained by arguably as good a

6:29

trainer as it was in that

6:31

era in the pro wrestling business.

6:34

Let's also mention that. One of

6:36

the things don't really work out

6:39

of Penn State, it transfers to

6:41

Miami University. And Miami, the U

6:43

as it was, was the top

6:46

college football program for a chunk

6:48

of the 80s. But his run

6:50

here comes to an end. They

6:53

do a road trip to Atlanta

6:55

to play Georgia Tech and Lugar

6:57

is frustrated that he is not

7:00

named starter by coach loose-sabin. And

7:02

in just the fifth game of

7:04

the season, he snaps and trashes

7:07

his hotel room and Lexus college

7:09

career is over. He bounces around

7:11

the pro football scene, does a

7:14

little stint in the CFL, which

7:16

is the path a lot of

7:18

guys took to rock, Ron Simmons,

7:21

a lot of the guys, yeah,

7:23

had their hand outside of the

7:25

NFL, but then it all changes

7:28

for Lex. In 1985, he meets

7:30

Bob Roop at a celebrity golfing

7:32

event in Florida, and of course

7:35

Roop sees what we see. and

7:37

arranges for him to be trained

7:39

by the man who trained Hulk

7:42

Hogan and Paul Orendorf, Mr. Hero

7:44

Matsuda. We haven't talked a lot

7:46

about Bob Roop on our show.

7:49

You got any Bob Roop stories

7:51

or memories you can share with

7:53

us? Bobby was a hell of

7:56

a hand. He was a AAU

7:58

national champion and had a very

8:00

distinguished amateur record. So he was

8:03

a, what would be classified in

8:05

the territory air Conrad as a

8:07

wrestling heel. So he would try

8:10

to out-wrestle you using his amateur

8:12

skill set, and then once the

8:15

baby face gained the offensive advantage,

8:17

then he would start... cheating. So

8:19

he was a wrestling heel and

8:22

a good one. Bobby was a

8:24

good helmet shooter. You know, I

8:26

know Watts coveted Bob. Bob was

8:29

always very intelligent. When he talked

8:31

to Bob, he was like talking

8:33

to a college professor or something.

8:36

He was very, very cerebral and,

8:38

but a good, solid hand. He,

8:40

he didn't have the, a 2021

8:43

body. But he was always in

8:45

great shade. And so I always

8:47

enjoyed working with Bobby's. He was

8:50

a very smart guy, well read.

8:52

So it had a good eye

8:54

for talent, which, you know, Lugar,

8:57

that was a good, that was

8:59

a good get for Florida, when

9:01

Bobby saw Alex. So it, they

9:04

wouldn't, you know, look, you got

9:06

a name like Lawrence bowl. Yeah,

9:08

you better be a tough son

9:11

of a bitch. Hello, Lawrence. Did

9:13

you call me Lawrence, you mother?

9:15

Well, it's tremendous. So let's jump

9:18

into it. Matt Souda. We've talked

9:20

about him a little bit here.

9:22

You know, obviously the pedigree speaks

9:25

for itself. He got Orndorf going,

9:27

he got Hogan going, Lex Luger

9:29

is next. And I guess Lex

9:32

is a fan of the old

9:34

comic books because Lex Luther. is

9:36

probably the motivation to be Lex

9:39

Lugar. Did you ever hear where

9:41

the for sure the story about

9:43

how Lex Lugar came to be?

9:46

No, I think most promoters have

9:48

that insatiable desire to use, you

9:51

know, wherever it's called, the Lex

9:53

Lugar, the LLL or the double

9:55

initials or what? Yeah, the alliteration.

9:58

Yeah, yeah. Literation, thank you Conrad.

10:00

You're so smart. So no, I

10:02

don't know where the name came

10:05

from. I really don't. I would

10:07

be. in that era it was

10:09

largely from the office in Florida

10:12

and you know what you said

10:14

Lex Luther was the number one

10:16

heel of Superman right yes yeah

10:19

and so I don't know who

10:21

gave you the name but it

10:23

worked I mean it's easy to

10:26

remember it's easy to say and

10:28

you know for years I didn't

10:30

know his name was Larry This

10:33

name is Lex. Right. And Best

10:35

of Less than Bill Watz talked

10:37

to me a long time ago,

10:40

you know, when you are doing

10:42

these matches, the last thing you

10:44

want to do is is blurt

10:47

out someone's real name that isn't

10:49

their show business name. Because in

10:51

those areas, even though you're doing

10:54

stuff on tape, it was a

10:56

major consideration based on the equipment,

10:58

the time and money. to go

11:01

back and re-ed it or change

11:03

things or do wild lines or

11:05

whatever, it was challenging at that

11:08

time. So that's why backstage or

11:10

whatever, you know, I never went

11:12

up to say, hey Lawrence, how

11:15

you doing today? It was Lex.

11:17

Because I didn't want to get

11:20

Lawrence in my head and go

11:22

on TV and blurting Lawrence. Well,

11:24

Lawrence is looking good today. So

11:27

anyway, that's kind of how that

11:29

other worked out. So he was

11:31

always Lex to me and I.

11:34

I thought that was a pretty

11:36

good name actually. Let's talk about

11:38

his early beginnings here. He debuts

11:41

for CWF, aka championship wrestling from

11:43

Florida, the old Graham territory, and

11:45

within two months, he's beating Wahoo

11:48

McDaniel for the southern heavyweight championship.

11:50

This is a big deal, you

11:52

know, for you to come in

11:55

and get this photo confidence and

11:57

to beat Wahoo that early in

11:59

your career. What did you think

12:02

of his early beginnings here? Oh,

12:04

you got a big. break early

12:06

on and I'm sure Wahoo beat

12:09

the shit out of him but

12:11

where he lost was got used

12:13

to some of those Wahoo McDaniel

12:16

chops which are legendary you know

12:18

and there is such an impressive

12:20

thing because the noise and you

12:23

can lay it in and and

12:25

of course Flares made a living

12:27

on that chop for ever or

12:30

you know did and and rightfully

12:32

so black Jack Mulligan was another

12:34

infamous big-handed chopper. And Wahoo and

12:37

Blackjack were both major influences to

12:39

your father-in-law. Right. So, and not

12:41

that influences, by the way. So,

12:44

I don't know, it was, they,

12:46

his look probably got him started

12:48

in a bigger way than anybody

12:51

I can recall. Right. You know,

12:53

you're going to be Wahoo and

12:56

you've only been in the business

12:58

a few weeks or for the

13:00

old proverbial cup of coffee. Then,

13:03

you know, people have high hopes

13:05

for you. It's just that Lex's

13:07

look was so impressive that his

13:10

work, his skill set, had not

13:12

evolved to that level of procession.

13:14

So, and he had, you know,

13:17

he didn't have a lot of

13:19

different moves and all that good

13:21

stuff, which is not a deal

13:24

breaker, yay or nay. But in

13:26

any event, he's, he's got a

13:28

big break early on. And at

13:31

that stage of his game, Waha

13:33

was just a little bit more

13:35

amenable. But Waha could have made

13:38

it very difficult if he chose

13:40

to. I don't want to beat

13:42

your ass so that, you know,

13:45

I'm not going to go down

13:47

without a fight. So anyhow, that's

13:49

kind of where I see. He

13:52

got a major push early. And

13:54

I can't blame Lex. You can't

13:56

blame a talent. for getting booked

13:59

well. Right. But

14:01

the question always then comes

14:03

back to you Conrad, was

14:05

he really booked well? Was

14:07

he had his skill set

14:10

advanced to the level that

14:12

he could carry a management

14:14

match or a significant title?

14:16

At that time the Southern

14:18

heavyweight title was a big

14:20

deal. So too much too

14:22

soon I think would be

14:25

my answer to the Lex

14:27

Southern heavyweight title thing. Not

14:29

because he wasn't going to

14:31

be good or couldn't be

14:33

good. He just wasn't ready.

14:35

He just, he wasn't ready.

14:37

It's like, you know, everybody

14:40

here in Jacksonville is talking

14:42

about, I'm going to tie

14:44

it in 10-T-1 was going

14:46

to be. Oh, I don't

14:48

know. He can't play it

14:50

yet. Let's see. So it's

14:52

the same deal. It's just

14:55

maybe too much too soon.

14:57

We'll find out when the

14:59

ball rings. Let's, let's briefly

15:01

talk about. Graham's territory for

15:03

a minute. Lex they views

15:05

in October and unfortunately Eddie

15:07

Graham lost his life in

15:10

January. What was sort of

15:12

the perceived feeling of Graham's

15:14

territory without Eddie? You know,

15:16

again, just to add context,

15:18

Eddie passes away in January,

15:20

nine or ten months later,

15:22

here comes Lex Lugar, debuting.

15:25

When Lex debuts, this is not

15:28

the old championship wrestling from Florida.

15:30

The business is changing, right? Well,

15:32

Eddie was the alpha male, the

15:35

whole company. He built it, he

15:37

started it, and Eddie loved developing

15:39

talent, he had a great eye

15:42

for talent. But at one time,

15:44

you know, it's arguable to say

15:46

that Florida territory wasn't the territory

15:49

to be in. sunshine, good weather,

15:51

and most years. trips or by

15:54

car. There were scanty clad women

15:56

on the beaches. There's no state

15:58

tax as if some of our

16:01

peers were very focused on paying

16:03

their taxes. So it was a

16:05

very desirable place to be. If

16:08

you didn't like to fly, you

16:10

didn't have to fly unless you're

16:13

broke the Bahamas or something. Even

16:15

the south of the territory in

16:17

Miami. which I think they ran

16:20

every Wednesday night, I'm not sure,

16:22

was driveable. It's a long drive,

16:24

but it was driveable. So, that's

16:27

why a lot of those, some

16:29

of those guys got their own

16:32

planes. Eddie Graham had his own

16:34

plane. You know, there are several

16:36

guys, and of course, all of

16:39

that is made famous by the

16:41

plane crashes. You know, nature survived

16:43

one, luckily. Bobby Shane didn't. You

16:46

know, Gary Hart was in a

16:48

crash, you know, and there was

16:50

the same. So that could be

16:53

a whole story in itself, wrestlers

16:55

with planes, because it's kind of

16:58

a Ronnie Garvin, Cowboy Bill Watts.

17:00

You know, it's just a, it

17:02

went on and on. But it

17:05

was a great territory. It was

17:07

a great territory. When I was

17:09

see guys from the Watts territory,

17:12

they had just come from Florida,

17:14

or we're going to Florida. It

17:17

was always with positivity. It was

17:19

a place to go. It was

17:21

a place to be. And Eddie

17:24

was just a really, really good

17:26

booker, I for Talent. You know,

17:28

he hired good bookers. He let

17:31

them do their job. Bill Watts

17:33

said he got his PhD in

17:36

Florida, working for Eddie Graham. So

17:38

Eddie was like a guru. He

17:40

was really well respected by the

17:43

boys. He was a man's man.

17:45

No, he sing on his back,

17:47

he and profession. Melineco or the

17:50

two guys I would say above

17:52

all that really launched the ship

17:54

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Home chef.com/J.R. Let's let's talk about

19:53

his first big test. The Nature

19:55

Boy, Rick Blair comes to town

19:58

September 1st, 1986. It's battle. of

20:00

the belts three, you go back

20:02

to battle of the belts two,

20:05

which was a CWF, a sort

20:07

of staple event. And it was

20:10

a phenomenal match with Barry Windham

20:12

that Dave Meltzer went on to

20:14

call the best hour of TV

20:17

he'd ever seen in professional wrestling.

20:19

So a year later, it's time

20:21

to make a new guy, right?

20:24

And that guy in Daytona Beach

20:26

is Lex Lugar. They got 20

20:29

minutes. It's a two out of

20:31

three falls match. And any time

20:33

the world champion comes to town.

20:36

And the promoter goes your way

20:38

and says, hey, you're up next.

20:40

It is a vote of confidence

20:43

that this guy's going to be

20:45

a big deal, right? Oh, absolutely.

20:47

He had the look every, as

20:50

I said earlier, he had the

20:52

look that every promoter, Paul Bosch,

20:55

to figure out. This son of

20:57

which has got every physical tool

20:59

that you could ever want. He

21:02

was big, he was an athlete,

21:04

he was athletic. He wasn't a

21:06

Clydesdale, he moved around pretty good.

21:09

And he had that six or

21:11

five frame, really heavy into body

21:14

building and there's look. So, you

21:16

know, I didn't think, when everybody

21:18

saw, including when I worked with

21:21

Lex at WWW, he was all.

21:23

The rule of thumb was we

21:25

may have our next Hogan. Everywhere

21:28

Lugar went, he was compared to

21:30

Hogan. And that's not fair. Hogan

21:33

was not two weeks in the

21:35

business where he was working major

21:37

man events. He paid his dues.

21:40

He worked the territories. He got

21:42

to dance with a lot of

21:44

different partners to a lot of

21:47

different music. He was more prepared

21:49

for the stardom. than Lex was

21:51

because Lex just got a gut

21:54

town, parked his car, and you're

21:56

the main event. Oh, by the

21:59

way, you're... going over you're going

22:01

to be the champion at the other night.

22:03

That just didn't happen for Hogan

22:05

and it happened for Lex and it

22:07

wasn't a real healthy thing for his

22:09

career quite frankly. It caused a

22:11

lot of heat and a lot of animosity

22:14

with many talents because they're

22:16

out there pulling away, they've

22:18

perfected their skills and they're

22:20

very very good and they get this guy

22:22

that's here because his look. That's

22:24

what the consensus was. He's only

22:26

got his spot because he looks like

22:28

a main event guy. Let me ask you,

22:30

you know, do you think, and I know you

22:32

said we've got our next Hogan and

22:35

everybody knows Hogan was the biggest

22:37

star in the history of the

22:39

business and arguably still one of

22:41

the, I don't think it's arguing,

22:43

anyway, what I was trying to get

22:46

to is as great as Hogan looked,

22:48

Harry von Eric was a body guy too.

22:50

I mean, he looked like he was chiseled

22:52

on a granite, same deal. And he was

22:54

the top guy for world class. So now

22:56

here comes Lex Lugger, who in

22:59

my opinion. Looks more like Kerry

23:01

and less like Hogan with the

23:03

exception of the blonde hair. But

23:05

I'm curious. Who do you think was

23:07

sort of the first guy to say, okay,

23:09

here's the change. Now the business is

23:11

going more towards body guys.

23:14

Again, not to disparage anybody,

23:16

but a generation before. It was

23:18

guys who looked like Terry funk or

23:20

Harley race or Jackers go. And now

23:22

as we're trying to go box office

23:25

and we're trying to go mainstream.

23:27

They look like comic book heroes

23:29

come to life, whether it's

23:31

Holkogan or Kerry von Eric, and

23:33

now here's Lex Lugar. Who do

23:35

you go back and say, this is the

23:37

first guy who made that change? Well,

23:39

I'll say this, to preface that,

23:41

it was all about emulating against

23:44

McMahon's theory. You know, I mean,

23:46

man had his Hogan. He had

23:48

his superhero. There's no bigger

23:51

superhero in pro wrestling than

23:53

Hol Kogan. And I think if

23:55

you categorized the talents. He said,

23:57

okay, here's our here's our here's

23:59

our category for, you know, this

24:01

topic. Here's our category for

24:04

the comic book, Hogan went

24:06

with that hands down. So,

24:08

but after Hogan, I would

24:10

say that Lugar was the

24:12

next guy because Kerry, Kerry

24:15

looked great at a beautiful

24:17

body and could work when

24:19

motivated, no doubt about that.

24:21

Because he came from a

24:24

wrestling family, he was around

24:26

it all the time, he

24:28

had a good understanding of

24:30

the business. You know, this

24:32

is aside from the personal

24:35

shit that we get to,

24:37

always have to preface. You

24:39

know, it's like talking about

24:41

Benoit. You talk about Benoit,

24:44

the human being, based on

24:46

the last 48 hours of

24:48

his life, it's not a

24:50

very good argument. Unfortunately, sadly.

24:53

So, but I would say

24:55

Luker's right there, Conrad. Because

24:57

he was he was six

24:59

four. He stood above everybody

25:01

in that regard, and he

25:04

had that great body that

25:06

he worked his ass off

25:08

to cheat. He said, well,

25:10

he's on steroids. Who the

25:13

fuck wasn't on steroids? Right.

25:15

Seriously. And it's so in

25:17

some areas that some places,

25:19

they weren't illegal. So

25:22

and so I don't know man,

25:24

I think that Lugar as far

25:27

as that guy There was the

25:29

prototype of what we want If

25:31

we're going to ever replace Hogan

25:33

or get our own Hogan We

25:36

got to get somebody that's got

25:38

an extraordinary physique that turns heads

25:40

and airports, which is one of

25:43

Vince's big deals But the you

25:45

go back and filter all that

25:47

bullshit through and you find out

25:49

everybody just trying to emulate McMahon

25:52

right I don't know that Eddie

25:54

Graham would have ever tried to

25:56

emulate Vince. I think Eddie was

25:59

going to dance to the media

26:01

with some drum. He's going to...

26:03

play with the players that he

26:05

had, that he trusted and he

26:08

liked. And Eddie's territory is a

26:10

little bit of Wild West, but

26:12

he also had the Briscoes, Jack

26:15

Briscoe's home territory. So you start

26:17

there and you see that Eddie

26:19

like quality or quantity. So I

26:22

don't know that Eddie would have

26:24

been a big advocate of Lugars

26:26

at that time, and at least

26:28

until he got a skill set

26:31

up, Conrad, where he could, you

26:33

know. do the basic things and

26:35

do the very very well. Yeah,

26:38

it's interesting to think about sort

26:40

of the what ifs. I really

26:42

like that aspect of our shows

26:44

we could go back and sort

26:47

of wonder what if and what

26:49

if Eddie hadn't passed away in

26:51

January of 85 would Luker have

26:54

enjoyed the same success? I'm curious

26:56

if you would have bounced around

26:58

to another territory. Your old pal

27:00

Bill Watts really loved the football

27:03

pedigree. That's been well documented. But

27:05

Lugar was not an amateur wrestler.

27:07

Do you think Cowboy would have

27:10

given a second look to Lugar?

27:12

If Eddie had given him to

27:14

him, he would have, but I

27:16

don't think Eddie would have given

27:19

up Lugar. All Eddie would have

27:21

done was slow down the process,

27:23

let's develop this kid, so he

27:26

doesn't develop bad habits. So it

27:28

doesn't go out there in front

27:30

of a live paying audience and

27:33

have bad performances. So I don't

27:35

think Eddie would have forsaken Lugar,

27:37

but he would have drastically slowed

27:39

down Lugar's progress. It would have

27:42

taken elected a lot longer to

27:44

get into those main events, and

27:46

to meet Oahu McDaniel for the

27:49

southern title, etc., etc., etc., etc.,

27:51

until he was more fundamentally prepared.

27:53

And Cowboy, Cowboy was like Indian

27:55

from motor. If he thought he

27:58

could draw money with Lugar, It

28:00

booked it. Of course. It was

28:02

booking, but I don't think Eddie

28:05

would have given him enough that.

28:07

that quickly. Now he and watch

28:09

me and work out a deal

28:11

and they did on other talents

28:14

where you know Eddie in South

28:16

was a territory that that a

28:18

lot of guys would go to

28:21

from Florida to freshen up right

28:23

six months a year whatever it

28:25

may be and then you know

28:28

talents did what they were asked

28:30

to do and you're booked here

28:32

and here's your start date here's

28:34

your end date and you're gonna

28:37

learn a lot for cowboy. Because

28:39

Cowboy was a disciple of Eddie

28:41

Graham. So when you got the

28:44

guy back to Florida, he wasn't

28:46

taught something completely foreign. He was

28:48

taught Eddie's basic philosophies, only from

28:50

the mouth and the head and

28:53

the of Cowboy. So I just

28:55

don't think Eddie would have let

28:57

a good talent, a potential talent,

29:00

because again, you can't replicate the

29:02

look every day. You just can't.

29:04

And look. is the looks business.

29:06

And even though Eddie did through

29:09

money with the guys that didn't

29:11

have great bodies, you know, Bugsy

29:13

McGraw's not going any body building

29:16

contest, no Bugsy sold tickets. Dusty

29:18

Rose, by the way, has never

29:20

been on the cover of Muscle

29:23

and Fitness, but he damn should

29:25

have been on the cover a

29:27

lot of wrestling magazines because he

29:29

sold tickets. So, and then he

29:32

was a heel there. And the

29:34

Watts convinced Eddie to turn dusty

29:36

baby's face. And that worked out

29:39

pretty good. Let's mention the crazy

29:41

incident that wrestling fans still talk

29:43

about to this day. I think

29:45

it's January of 87. The old

29:48

Lex Lugar Bruiser Brody cage match

29:50

from Florida, they became a tape

29:52

trading legend. I think former ECW

29:55

manager Bill Alfonso here in this

29:57

era. He is a referee. He's

29:59

the referee for that match. Did

30:01

you see the tape? Or did...

30:04

Did you hear about the incident?

30:06

What did you think of that?

30:08

I heard about the incident by

30:11

I'm not saying to tape. You

30:13

know, Brody, these controversial issues where

30:15

Brody was imposing his will, it

30:17

wasn't a new deal. It wasn't

30:20

new. It wasn't new. It was

30:22

a new concept. Oh my God,

30:24

this is never happened before. Bull

30:27

shit. Have an old time. And

30:29

Frank was a strong-willed Disneyland. So

30:31

I didn't see the taste. Did

30:34

you see it? Yeah, it was

30:36

something to see. You know, it

30:38

feels like Brody just decided, hey,

30:40

this doesn't work for me brother.

30:43

And just stop selling anything and

30:45

everything. And before you know it,

30:47

Lugar's running for his life. But

30:50

he's not long for the Florida

30:52

territory. He's going to jump to

30:54

Jim Crock promotions in early 87.

30:56

He's going to be called the

30:59

total package. and he's almost immediately

31:01

associated with big player, but not

31:03

exactly being part of the horseman.

31:06

And the talk of wrestling forever

31:08

has been that Vince is the

31:10

body guy, but yet here's Lex

31:12

and JCP. And that's, you know,

31:15

you go back and you look

31:17

at the great wrestlers there, whether

31:19

there are an Anderson or Telly

31:22

Blanchard or Ollie Anderson or, you

31:24

know, who could forget the rock

31:26

and roll express, those guys are

31:29

not exactly body guys. Oh, why

31:31

don't you think? Lugar was on

31:33

Vince's radar here. I'm not saying

31:35

it was. This may have been

31:38

contractually obligated to JCP and the

31:40

fact that they were dangling that

31:42

horseman distinction run of him. That's

31:45

automatic men events. It's automatic more

31:47

money. Right. And you know, and

31:49

you know, again, I said it

31:51

before many times. It's not about

31:54

the money. It's all about the

31:56

money. These guys are independent contractors.

31:58

They've got to maximize their minutes.

32:01

They've got to get out there

32:03

and... and impressed. So I don't

32:05

know man, I just think that

32:07

I'm sure Lugar was on Vince's

32:10

radar. Not unlike when Vince saw

32:12

the Dingle Warrior. You know you

32:14

see if somebody sends a tape

32:17

or one of the guys in

32:19

the office says, you know, probably

32:21

like Howard Binkle kind of a

32:23

guy. God bless him. Howard watched

32:26

everything. He saw somebody that he

32:28

thought Vince might be interested in

32:30

and he brought it to his

32:33

attention. I'm assuming that's kind of

32:35

the way that That We're we're

32:37

talking that that was assuming it

32:40

was that way with Dingo Warrior

32:42

after just watching his biographer figure

32:44

a while back too long ago.

32:46

Was that this week? Yeah, as

32:49

you and I record it was

32:51

just yesterday and of course this

32:53

Thursday night aka tonight You'll be

32:56

able to see Dark Side of

32:58

the Ring, which you're featured on.

33:00

Am I? About the Ultimate Warrior.

33:02

And you have some great one-liners

33:05

in there that are going to

33:07

get the internet all fired up.

33:09

You're probably wondering out there in

33:12

TV land. What the fuck is

33:14

death tricity? Oh God. Well. Here

33:16

we come. Yeah, I didn't make

33:18

the edit on the Warriors A&E.

33:21

I'm not real... I'm not... Aside

33:23

from Pillman. Did they need to

33:25

a Pillman interview? That was dark

33:28

side. Okay. But they did do

33:30

this. The Stone Cold one, I...

33:32

You made the cut on that

33:35

one. I made a cut on

33:37

that one, and I thought they

33:39

did a phenomenal job of that.

33:41

And not just simply because I

33:44

made the edit. I thought, you

33:46

know, Steve had such a strong

33:48

hand and creative, some creative control,

33:51

I think, in that regard. Seems

33:53

like it anyway. I thought that

33:55

was really good. I wasn't crazy

33:57

about the savage. Yeah, I wasn't

34:00

it was I didn't like that

34:02

I know I've never I was

34:04

never a major fan personally Randy

34:07

savage because he was a problem

34:09

for me at times and it

34:11

may be me so you know

34:13

I'm not gonna it was all

34:16

him and I didn't do anything

34:18

wrong it was on my fault

34:20

I didn't know I just we

34:23

had a personality issues I had

34:25

no personality and he had a

34:27

big one but I didn't I

34:30

I thought that the the warrior

34:32

documentary was it just seemed Like

34:34

an office, it seemed like a

34:36

WWPs. It was. Very, you know,

34:39

uh, you know, events fired the

34:41

guy four, three or four times.

34:43

So he fired me three or

34:46

four times. So I guess that's

34:48

not a big issue. But anyway,

34:50

I, uh, Lugar was, Lugar was

34:52

on, the radar question, I digressed,

34:55

obviously, I'm sorry, that I thought

34:57

Lugar was probably on the, everybody's

34:59

radar. He looked too good, Conrad,

35:02

Conrad. He's too statuous. Perfect. He

35:04

was physically perfect for this business.

35:06

Well, his first promo here for

35:08

Jim Crockett promotions, he says, I'm

35:11

gonna be become a member of

35:13

the horseman one day. And I

35:15

don't think you could probably say

35:18

anything other than they're lining Lugar

35:20

up for a big push. They're

35:22

strapping the rocket to him brother.

35:24

He's getting that almighty push. And

35:27

of course, we know Ollie Anderson's

35:29

gonna get kicked out of the

35:31

horseman and replaced with Lex Lugar.

35:34

And there's no one better at

35:36

this point in time, probably for

35:38

Lugar to learn on the road

35:41

with, and Blair, Dylan, Arne, and

35:43

Tully. Right. What do you think

35:45

Ollie thought of the creative of

35:47

I'm out and Lex Lugar's Inn?

35:50

Well, Ollie, I probably have the

35:52

old school philosophy of this all

35:54

about his body. Yeah. Yeah, I

35:57

can't work the lick. Blah, blah,

35:59

blah. And you know, Ollie was

36:01

always going to look at a

36:03

glass half-half half-half if-fifty anyway. If

36:06

you're asking me who's a better

36:08

worker. Oley Anderson or Lex Lugar

36:10

and right at that point in

36:13

time. Well, that's easy. Oley was

36:15

a better worker. But they saw

36:17

something in Lex. They wanted to

36:19

put him in this group that

36:22

could protect him if he was

36:24

willing to listen and and and

36:26

use the information and the things

36:29

he's being taught that he had

36:31

a chance to be really really

36:33

great. And you know, Oley just

36:36

would not have agreed with that.

36:38

If it flows me back to

36:40

what I've said about Eddie Graham,

36:42

Oley and Eddie Graham's philosophies, Conrad,

36:45

were, I would say, very similar.

36:47

So Oley didn't like Lex getting

36:49

his promotion and getting his push.

36:52

For God's sakes, must have that

36:54

in life. And so, I don't

36:56

know, I think that, uh, I

36:58

think that, uh, Eddie and Oley's,

37:01

uh, feelings toward Lex would have

37:03

been. in the same kettle of

37:05

fish. It's been similar. He was

37:08

not ready. He's only getting his

37:10

personal cause he's got a graze

37:12

of bodybuilder and he's artificially enhanced

37:14

and blah blah blah. So that's

37:17

kind of what I think about

37:19

that deal. I don't think Ollie

37:21

was happy with that deal at

37:24

all. Look, Ollie is a businessman.

37:26

You're getting taken out of the

37:28

most prominent heel group in the

37:30

business. Which means it's got to

37:33

affect your income. Right. So I

37:35

think only based on that assumption,

37:37

but was not happy with it.

37:40

It didn't seem to be happy

37:42

with it to me when I

37:44

was around. Talk to me a

37:47

little bit about when you first

37:49

meet Lex Liger. Is it 87?

37:51

I think so. I think it

37:53

was a Crockett acquisition? Yeah-huh. One

37:56

watt sold. We sold. And I

37:58

got hard by Jimmy. to

38:01

be on his broadcast team there

38:03

in JCP, which I've always appreciated.

38:06

That's giving my spot on TVS,

38:08

which let me be introduced to

38:10

my work anyway, to be introduced

38:13

to a lot of new people.

38:15

Yeah. So I've always been grateful

38:17

for that. And I think there's

38:20

where I met Lex. I always

38:22

thought he was, I don't know,

38:24

sometimes he didn't seem like he

38:26

was comfortable being around people. And

38:29

I might be wrong, but when

38:31

I say that, but it didn't

38:33

seem like he was real personable,

38:36

not real out, not real out

38:38

going, extroverted, he was not. But

38:40

again, you know, you take your

38:43

breath when he's saying with his

38:45

shirt off and just walking around

38:47

backstage in his tights, his boots.

38:50

Nobody else looked like him, man.

38:52

Sometimes he didn't seem like he

38:54

had the sense of a sense

38:57

of urgency that you would like

38:59

to see in an upcoming star.

39:01

But he was not rude or

39:04

anything along those lines. I just

39:06

think you have a different personality.

39:08

Everybody can't be naive. Yeah. Everybody

39:11

can't have all those horsemen guys

39:13

have big personalities. Aren't interesting to

39:15

have a conversation with me and

39:18

you about anything. Yeah. And Lex

39:20

was just a little bit introverted,

39:22

I think, because he had such

39:25

high expectations of himself and how

39:27

he looked at this crazy business

39:29

pro wrestling that, you know, he

39:32

was just, he was just, you

39:34

know, he was, he was, he

39:36

was a little unsure of himself.

39:39

Sure. And I think the insecurities

39:41

there affected his personality and how

39:43

he interacted with others. Doesn't mean

39:46

he was wrong. That's just his

39:48

natural personality. So he had to

39:50

come out that naturally. personality with

39:53

those promos and you know his

39:55

promos progressively and maybe too slowly

39:57

for some started getting better. I

40:00

want to mention you know we

40:02

talked about him traveling with the

40:04

horseman. He wrote in his book

40:07

My Life in Wrestling and he

40:09

thought he could have learned more

40:11

and absorbed more when he was

40:14

with the horseman. Is that just

40:16

more of what you talked about

40:18

a moment ago too much too

40:20

soon? you know he didn't really

40:23

he hadn't been around the business

40:25

enough to realize hey man I'm

40:27

in a pretty prime spot right

40:30

here. Well yeah I think it

40:32

kind of covered up some of

40:34

his insecurities a lot of guys

40:37

I want to see that let

40:39

us or their peers see their

40:41

vulnerabilities and I think Lexus is

40:44

kind of that way you know

40:46

he's been a big star high

40:48

school football star. you know, recruited

40:51

by the biggest best universities in

40:53

America to play football as an

40:55

alignment. So I just think that

40:58

he didn't want to basically fess

41:00

up the fact that I'm greener

41:02

and grassman. I'm not even sure

41:05

why I'm in this group because

41:07

my skill set is far from

41:09

my teammates in this particular entity.

41:12

So I think that was part

41:14

of his issue too, just it

41:16

prized athlete, it's like a, you

41:19

know, he was, he was like

41:21

secretary or something. He was just

41:23

bigger, stronger, faster, but he still

41:26

didn't have the skill set because

41:28

he had not had time, he'd

41:30

been pushed so quickly, quite frankly,

41:33

that it was unnatural, quite frankly,

41:35

quite frankly. But thanks to the

41:37

guys and the other his horsemen

41:40

teammates, they did take pretty good

41:42

care of it. They would isolate

41:44

him and give him a certain

41:47

set of spots to do on

41:49

a comeback. So if Lex is

41:51

going to be involved in a

41:54

tag match, then his part of

41:56

the tag match would generally be

41:58

delivering clothes lines and body slams

42:01

and things like that. And I

42:03

think he just was trying to

42:05

hide in the crowd a little

42:07

bit so that he did get...

42:10

overexposed that he wasn't the, he

42:12

wasn't Rick Flair. Right. Or it

42:14

wouldn't tell you, tell you, uh,

42:17

Blanchett or Arna Anderson. And then,

42:19

of course, you had, you missed

42:21

Jay, Jay, Jay, Jay, Jay, Dilling.

42:24

Jay, Jay, Jay, Jay, Jay, was

42:26

a great coach, mentor. He was

42:28

the rudder in the water. And

42:31

so the more that Lex would

42:33

have been able to list the

42:35

Jay, Jay, and accept that knowledge

42:38

without questioning it, the better off

42:40

he's going to be. I'm not

42:42

so sure, I might be wrong

42:45

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42:47

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off. Magic spoon. No, I mean,

44:08

he acknowledged that he thought he

44:11

could have did a better job

44:13

there. Crockett 87 comes down to

44:15

Dusty and Nikita against Tully and

44:18

Lugar. Before the finals in Baltimore,

44:20

Magna makes his first appearance in

44:22

six months following his terrible crash.

44:25

And he's going to support Dusty

44:27

and Nikita here, who of course

44:29

wind up victorious. Dusty Penn's Tully.

44:32

How big of a match do

44:34

you think in hindsight it could

44:36

have been one day? Magnam versus

44:39

Lugar. Good versus evil. The two

44:41

good looking dudes from the future,

44:43

huh? Yeah, I've been a great

44:46

matchup. And Terry Allen, Magna T.A.

44:48

would have been, would have had

44:50

the patience and the skill set

44:53

and the like age group to

44:55

communicate well with Lex and maybe

44:57

get Lex in a comfortable spot

45:00

that he knew that everything they

45:02

called was things that he could,

45:04

that Lex could execute. So it

45:07

would have been money. Lex Luger

45:09

versus a red hot Luger against

45:11

a red hot magnate T. A.

45:14

Nothing but money. They're building towards

45:16

Nikita versus Luger for the US

45:18

title, but it takes months to

45:21

put together sort of old school.

45:23

Lex is a part of the

45:25

very first war games at the

45:28

Omni where Dusty Nikita, the road

45:30

warriors and Paul Ailering would take

45:32

on the horsemen. Of course, Hawk

45:35

would make JJ submit. But Luger

45:37

being in that match, the very

45:39

first war games, it's a nice

45:42

little footnote in history for relatively

45:44

new comers. Yeah, well again, they're

45:46

booking for the future. Yeah, they

45:49

put Lex and situations that would

45:51

be allow him to shine Or

45:53

to have more credibility credence because

45:55

he's actually in the match So

45:58

I'm uh, I'm thinking that again,

46:00

you just keep looking back at

46:02

Lex's career and he got a

46:05

lot of breaks and being booked

46:07

in the first war games I'm

46:09

not mistaken, I might be wrong

46:12

with that. Finally in Greensboro, Lugar

46:14

wins the U.S. title from Nikita

46:16

in a steel cage match on

46:19

July 11th, and at this moment,

46:21

the horsemen have all the titles.

46:23

Of course, aren't until you are

46:26

the tagchamps, ricks, the world champ,

46:28

and now Lugar is the U.S.

46:30

champ. Is this another example of

46:33

too much too soon or based

46:35

on the context of him being

46:37

with the horseman? This is right

46:40

on time. Well, it's arguable arguable.

46:42

I think this is from a

46:44

fundamental standpoint, a storytelling, it rings

46:47

psychology, pacing, those things. It was

46:49

still a little bit too much

46:51

too soon. But the genie was

46:54

out of the bottle as they

46:56

say, if they say that, hell

46:58

I don't know, I've never really

47:01

made to say that in my

47:03

fucking life. The genie is out

47:05

of the bottle. Lex is out

47:08

there and he got exposed and...

47:10

And, and, and, you know, he

47:12

just, it was too late to

47:15

start over. You can't, you can't,

47:17

you can't retreat when you got

47:19

somebody that's getting, that's getting that

47:22

big a push, because that would

47:24

have affected in a negative way,

47:26

three of your biggest commodities. Rick

47:29

aren't and Tully. And they were,

47:31

you know, those guys had as

47:33

much to do. with the Crocket

47:36

territory being very profitable in that

47:38

year is anybody because they had

47:40

heat, they were wrestling heels, they

47:42

could talk. So I think, they

47:45

put Lexa Good Company where he

47:47

can almost, where he can be

47:49

protected. But I'll always say that

47:52

I think that unfortunately, and I

47:54

don't mean this is in a

47:56

bad way, it was a little

47:59

too much too-cent Conrad. He was

48:01

still on his infancy. You know,

48:03

he needed five years or so,

48:06

Lex, I was thinking of. to

48:08

be put on that. You can

48:10

protect him for a few years

48:13

without a doubt, because it's just

48:15

a matter of who you're booking

48:17

with. You're booking the great heel

48:20

that can tell a story and

48:22

keep you leading him along in

48:24

a positive way. And by the

48:27

time he got three, four, five

48:29

years under his belt with a

48:31

good quality opponent, he probably would

48:34

have been ready to launch his

48:36

own ship. Let's talk about what's

48:38

next for Lugar here. Star Gate

48:41

87 which you and I have

48:43

covered is the first paper view

48:45

for Jim Crockett promotions and of

48:48

course Vince sabotaged it with some

48:50

power plays with the cable systems

48:52

and of course creating survivor series.

48:55

Either way that day it's Dusty

48:57

versus Lugar in a still cage

48:59

match for the US title and

49:02

Dusty gets the win. It goes

49:04

16 minutes and mess would say

49:06

the step was if Rhodes lost

49:09

he'd have to quit wrestling for

49:11

90 days. Rhodes got a 50-50

49:13

mix of cheers and booze, although

49:16

Lex was mainly booed. In hindsight,

49:18

do you think this was the

49:20

right call to have, you know,

49:23

our baby face victorious over Lugar?

49:25

I mean, there's a lot of

49:27

criticism of Dusty in this era

49:30

that he's passed his prime, his

49:32

weight's gotten out of control. He's

49:34

grasping at straws as the Booker,

49:36

he's pushing himself too much, whatever.

49:39

But then there's Lugar who a

49:41

lot of people say, oh, he's

49:43

not ready, he's a body guy,

49:46

he's not the scrape performer. But

49:48

either way, it's the biggest show

49:50

in Crocka history, or so they

49:53

hope. and Dusty gets his hand

49:55

raised. What do you think of

49:57

that creative? Well, it's arguable. You

50:00

can make a good argument for

50:02

Dusty going over. You can make

50:04

a good argument for Lugar going

50:07

over. If you're trying to build

50:09

Lugar, you can't build him by

50:11

beating him. He doesn't know how

50:14

to lose yet. He doesn't ought

50:16

to take care of himself, Conrad.

50:18

There's a way you lose, man.

50:21

It's just not you go out

50:23

there and do your thing, oh

50:25

I miss something, boom, one, two,

50:28

three. That shit, don't, that shit

50:30

don't flush for me. Yeah. It's

50:32

a process, it's a presentation. And

50:35

you've got to have experience and

50:37

you've got to have, I mean,

50:39

in-game, in-ring, live experience. And, you

50:42

know, Lex have been in that

50:44

group. It had been protected. And

50:46

to get him in there with

50:49

Dusty, even though Dusty's game plan

50:51

was very basic. I recall. So

50:53

you can look out either way,

50:56

you know, if they thought, they

50:58

meaning JCP thought that Alex was

51:00

skill set, was to the level

51:03

that it could be the guy,

51:05

and he would have gone over,

51:07

I think. But I don't think

51:10

everybody had the thought at that

51:12

time that he was ready. And

51:14

I think that's why Dusty went

51:17

over. Well, after this, Lugar's uses

51:19

to quit the horseman. He eliminates

51:21

JJ to win the bunkhouse to

51:24

impede and now he's a full-fledged

51:26

baby face. Of course, we've got

51:28

the whole big beat down that

51:30

happens that clash the champions and

51:33

they bloody Lugar up. What do

51:35

you remember about Lugar being all

51:37

decked out in white on the

51:40

back of the white limousine? And

51:42

I think as the legend goes,

51:44

he had never, he had never

51:47

done the gig before. So he

51:49

had Jay Jay help him out.

51:51

You remember this being something where

51:54

the guys are like, oh. Let's

51:56

see how it goes. What do

51:58

you remember about that? Well, I

52:01

didn't know all those intimate details

52:03

as a time because it wouldn't

52:05

affect my job whatsoever. Right. How

52:08

he got his color or when

52:10

he got his color or whatever,

52:12

I would not have been on

52:15

my agenda to know. But look,

52:17

that's not unusual. Yeah, having somebody

52:19

else cut you. Of course. You

52:22

know, I did the thing on

52:24

Monday and out raw one time.

52:26

It might have been with the...

52:30

I'm trying to think, somebody cut

52:32

me. I haven't been cut a

52:34

couple of times. Of course, the

52:37

most famous mutilation was Austin, that

52:39

fucking scaffold, what do you call

52:41

it? Scalfold, yeah, scaffold, yeah. But

52:43

I think Arn helped me out

52:45

one time, because Arn made a

52:47

great blade. But that's not unusual.

52:49

He's green, it's an important angle.

52:51

You didn't want to take any

52:53

chances. You got to give him

52:55

a little, you want to him

52:58

more comfortable, pardon me, on him,

53:00

meaning Lugar more, as comfortable as

53:02

you could get him, in a

53:04

very important angle. And so Jay

53:06

Jay, being there to help out,

53:08

is probably, was really, I think,

53:10

necessary. And a lot of guys

53:12

don't want it to happen. They

53:14

want to be macho. They want

53:16

to be, you know, big time.

53:19

I can do my own color,

53:21

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

53:23

blah, blah, blah. If you could

53:25

get your own color really good,

53:27

then they wouldn't have tested by

53:29

their elk. And it's not a,

53:31

and it's not a freaking knock

53:33

that you have issues sticking a

53:35

razor blade in your head and

53:37

cutting yourself. Makes you normal, by

53:40

the way. Yeah. If that means

53:42

anything anymore. Well, I'm just saying,

53:44

whenever he, whatever other profession he

53:46

was going into, that would never

53:48

been something that he had to

53:50

give. No, probably not. Yeah. It's

53:52

the counting office. Show me your

53:54

So what's next for Lugar is

53:56

a tag team with Barry Wyndham?

53:58

They're put together and they're going

54:01

to challenge Arne and Tully for

54:03

the NWA tag team titles at

54:05

Clash to the champions. But of

54:07

course, as you know, Wyndham's going

54:09

to turn on Lugar in a

54:11

match. Arne and Tully get the

54:13

titles back. And now Barry Wyndham

54:15

is joining the horsemen. There's a

54:17

lot of talk and debate about,

54:19

especially in this era. Three Lugar

54:22

and Wyndam. Who was ready? When

54:24

were they ready? Lots of people

54:26

were debating, hey, Flair's time is

54:28

up, we need to try this.

54:30

And of course, eventually, they wind

54:32

up trying all three. I think

54:34

by the time they actually gave

54:36

Barry a shot in 93, you

54:38

know, maybe, you know, the fandom

54:40

and the support that Barry had

54:43

from the late 80s was gone,

54:45

or not what maybe what it

54:47

once was. But do you think

54:49

if you had to go back

54:51

in time, you would have done

54:53

it any differently or would have

54:55

kept the belt on flare the

54:57

whole time? Well, I'm a

55:00

flare guy, so I probably would

55:02

have kept the belt on flare

55:04

all the while knowing that he's

55:06

not going to be a heel

55:08

much longer because he's beloved. He's

55:10

like the old pair of house

55:12

shoes. Yeah. Here's a good clickbake

55:14

for you Conrad. Ross cost Blair,

55:16

old pair of house shoes. Yeah,

55:18

they're going. That's a good one.

55:21

I'll help you out there guys.

55:23

Click your ass off. You leech

55:25

and other. You know. I

55:27

want to go of

55:29

what brought me to

55:31

the dance, but if

55:33

you're asking about skill

55:35

sets and in-ring abilities,

55:37

Windham, Windham, hands down,

55:39

Windham, going into the

55:41

horseman, made that an

55:43

awesome group, just an

55:45

awesome group, my view,

55:47

that chemistry, all those

55:49

guys could wrestle, could

55:51

work, I just loved

55:53

it. I think I

55:55

love that's my favorite

55:58

incarnation of the horse.

56:00

the Barry Wendell in the group.

56:03

Because I knew there, no matter what

56:05

match I was going to call, that

56:07

they're involved in, you know, have

56:09

quality. It would be logical, it

56:11

makes sense. And so, and Barry

56:13

at one time was, you know, Conrad,

56:15

look, I don't know how old you were

56:18

at that point in time, but at

56:20

one time, Barry Wendell was considered as

56:22

good as or was. Yeah, in 86,

56:25

87, a lot of people thought he

56:27

might be the best wrestler in the

56:29

world in the world. Barry in

56:31

that group, a lot, a lot.

56:33

And to me, if the office had

56:35

thought that Barry was a

56:38

little bit more reliable, Barry

56:40

was a kind of a

56:43

maverie. Barry would have

56:45

very easily been my choice

56:47

to take the spot for Blair,

56:49

at least for a while.

56:51

Right. But she knew that the

56:53

main events are going

56:55

to be outstanding. You

56:57

know, nobody's an age, but Barry

57:00

Wendell was damn sure close to

57:02

it. Well, what's next is Lugarin's

57:04

thing team together to win

57:06

the Crockett Cup. They beat

57:09

Arnintelli in the finals. At

57:11

this point in real life are

57:13

our sting and Lex best of

57:15

friends. I mean, we know later

57:17

they're gonna own a gym together

57:19

in Atlanta and be big buds.

57:21

Is that already the case here in

57:24

early 88? You know, I'm not sure what

57:26

surprised me. So I would. venture

57:28

to say yes there are buddies

57:30

because they both love to

57:32

work out train you know they were

57:35

both gym guys hence what

57:37

you just said they invested

57:39

in a gym and

57:41

event fitness there in Atlanta

57:43

or the or you know at

57:45

one point in time so I

57:48

would say yet there I'm not

57:50

sure about the answer but I'm

57:52

guessing yes they have they had

57:54

a lot of comments age age

57:57

thing experience level

57:59

all those. And Sting was

58:01

another guy that was a

58:03

little bit like Lex in

58:05

the sense that at one

58:07

point all of a sudden,

58:09

boom, he explodes and he's

58:11

given a huge push when

58:13

one could argue that Sting

58:15

wasn't quite ready for that

58:17

push either. But sometimes you

58:19

get called on a duty

58:22

and you gotta go play.

58:24

So it seemed like it

58:26

worked out the best for

58:28

everybody along the way. I

58:30

think those guys were both,

58:32

neither guy was a big,

58:34

or big drinkers. They weren't,

58:36

I don't know that they

58:38

were drug guys whatsoever, you

58:40

know, party drugs. Right. That's

58:42

me. So, yeah, I think

58:44

that there probably were buddies.

58:46

They had a lot, they

58:49

had too much in common.

58:51

That subsequently led to a

58:53

business relationship. Well it's

58:55

time for Lex's big push, you

58:57

know, we talked about should it

59:00

be sting, should it be berry,

59:02

Lex gets the nod first, he's

59:04

headlining a paper view, it's Great

59:06

American Bash 1988, they go 23

59:09

minutes and 13 seconds, Jim and

59:11

I have done a long episode

59:13

on this entire show, including the

59:15

main event, the Meltzer gave two

59:18

and a half stars, but of

59:20

course, it feels like, hey, Iraq

59:22

is on, and Rick Claire must

59:25

have submitted because they're ringing, we've

59:27

got a new world champion, And

59:29

in fact, it's actually the athletic

59:31

commission stopping the match due to

59:34

blood loss, but there wasn't significant

59:36

bleeding. In hindsight, is this sort

59:38

of one of the, one of

59:40

the straws that broke the camel's

59:43

back for Jim Crockett promotions, do

59:45

you think? It feels like they

59:47

turned off Baltimore that night in

59:50

a major way. Well, you know,

59:52

Conrad, I hated it. And

59:54

they're frustrated. The thing about, here's

59:57

a deal, the thing about. And

59:59

it happened today, it would have

1:00:01

been a great train wreck because

1:00:04

there's so much more information flow

1:00:06

out there, thanks to social media,

1:00:08

for better or for worse. But

1:00:11

Lugar did get enough color to

1:00:13

make, you know, a band-aid would

1:00:15

have fixed that. It wasn't a

1:00:17

physical danger. And it was a

1:00:20

formality that the hard to get

1:00:22

along with at times, There's been

1:00:24

noteworthy for things like that in

1:00:27

the past. So I didn't like

1:00:29

to finish at all. I don't

1:00:31

understand. And every time you get

1:00:34

wrestlers involved, every time may be

1:00:36

too much, more often than not

1:00:38

when wrestlers are involved in their

1:00:41

finishes. And they are the last

1:00:43

vote heard or the last sentiment

1:00:45

heard on a finish that ironically,

1:00:47

oh. get this involves them we

1:00:50

take the shortcuts because their egos

1:00:52

are so fragile they're so sensitive

1:00:54

west their hearts that they got

1:00:57

to protect themselves well now I'm

1:00:59

gonna make it this is probably

1:01:01

not Lugar protecting himself this is

1:01:04

probably dusty making sure he can

1:01:06

come back for return matches but

1:01:08

it was just I'm not blaming

1:01:11

Lugar on it that the office

1:01:13

made this decision to use that

1:01:15

finish right and in theory I

1:01:17

can understand the logic behind it,

1:01:20

but in execution, it's a mess.

1:01:22

It was a mess. It was

1:01:24

a mess. It was the shits.

1:01:27

And sometimes, you know, here's a

1:01:29

deal, man. You can get over

1:01:31

the shits. Yeah. So that's coming

1:01:34

over the theory was. Well, as

1:01:36

we heard the audience, our audience

1:01:38

says it's not very good. We

1:01:41

don't like the way the show

1:01:43

in it. We don't believe we

1:01:45

got our money's worth. It tells

1:01:48

you that they came to see

1:01:50

the main event and the main

1:01:52

event. event, put him down. So

1:01:54

I'm not blaming Lex on the

1:01:57

finish because he didn't do the

1:01:59

finishes. But the office, you know,

1:02:01

it's one of those old Wild

1:02:04

West, you know, things where, you

1:02:06

know, the guy gets sold over

1:02:08

the top row, the second referee

1:02:11

sees it, there's a disqualification that's

1:02:13

on the delayed call, and it

1:02:15

sucks ass. It's just terrible. So

1:02:18

I didn't like that at all.

1:02:20

I don't know who it helped.

1:02:22

I really don't. Do you think

1:02:24

it didn't help Dusty? It didn't

1:02:27

help Dusty? It didn't help Dusty.

1:02:29

No. It didn't help relax. No.

1:02:31

So. So what we accomplish? We

1:02:34

accomplish shit. And all shit's good

1:02:36

for is fertilized. It helps things

1:02:38

grow. Let me ask in terms

1:02:41

of this finish. What would you

1:02:43

have done? I mean, would you

1:02:45

have just avoided Lugar in the

1:02:48

main event with Blair because you

1:02:50

felt like fans were ready for

1:02:52

it and you as the promoter

1:02:54

aren't ready to put your. your

1:02:57

business in his hands or would

1:02:59

you have done a different finish

1:03:01

and just have the horseman cheat

1:03:04

or some such? I would have

1:03:06

had the horse and play the

1:03:08

numbers game. Yeah. Where the baby

1:03:11

face was faced with insurmountable odds

1:03:13

and the announcement would tell a

1:03:15

good story and Lugar was never

1:03:18

quit, he never gave up, he

1:03:20

bought his ass off but the

1:03:22

numbers caught up with him. They're

1:03:24

called the four horsemen for a

1:03:27

reason. There's four of those bastards

1:03:29

for those bastards. There's one Lex.

1:03:31

I would look like Lex is

1:03:34

going to pull this thing out

1:03:36

and all of a sudden come

1:03:38

booms up and goes down for

1:03:41

an object, whatever it may be,

1:03:43

and he got screwed. And you

1:03:45

can tell that story much more

1:03:48

vividly and easier than trying to

1:03:50

explain a trinket or two of

1:03:52

blood. Because that was the premise.

1:03:55

Well, this guy's bleeding. Yeah, but

1:03:57

the intent of the rule is

1:03:59

to make sure that somebody doesn't,

1:04:01

they're not injured. and they're bleeding.

1:04:04

Well, you know, this is just

1:04:06

a trickle down. It's like a

1:04:08

shaving cut. Right. It just didn't,

1:04:11

it didn't work for me. So

1:04:13

I would have, I'd have had

1:04:15

the, I would have had a

1:04:18

finish and I would have beat

1:04:20

Lex, but I would have beat

1:04:22

Lex, but I would have beat

1:04:25

Lex with the help of the

1:04:27

Calvary. Sure. And, and, and, and,

1:04:29

look, you told me that, what

1:04:31

you're going to do before the

1:04:34

show, which they didn't. It's fine.

1:04:36

I didn't want to know. Didn't

1:04:38

need to know. I might have

1:04:41

said, well, that sounds interesting. That

1:04:43

might work. I seem to match

1:04:45

a stop because of too much

1:04:48

blood. Of course. But it's too

1:04:50

much blood. Not enough. Yeah. No.

1:04:52

So didn't like to finish it

1:04:55

all. I don't think it helped

1:04:57

anybody. And when you're looking a

1:04:59

finish, you've got to figure out.

1:05:01

Who all did we help here?

1:05:04

Who all did we continue to

1:05:06

advance? Have we failed? I think

1:05:08

of that finish, it was a

1:05:11

failure. Let's talk about how they

1:05:13

run it back. Starcade, we see

1:05:15

flare pin Lugar, he's holding the

1:05:18

ropes and a lot of people

1:05:20

think that if you're not going

1:05:22

to do the switch at Starcade,

1:05:25

you have effectively cut the knees

1:05:27

out from under Lex Lugar or

1:05:29

any baby face. Is it hard

1:05:31

for a baby face to keep

1:05:34

coming up short and continue to

1:05:36

be pushed as a top guy

1:05:38

in your opinion? Absolutely. Absolutely. And

1:05:41

it's even harder in today's world,

1:05:43

even though everybody knows kind of

1:05:45

what's going on, you know, they

1:05:48

wouldn't get lost in the match.

1:05:50

Fans do today. We as fans

1:05:52

haven't changed that much. Yeah, you

1:05:55

and I are in this, we're

1:05:57

in the this business, but we

1:05:59

still enjoy seeing a great match.

1:06:01

Yes. And a contest that kind

1:06:04

of takes us away from reality,

1:06:06

unless us lets us immerse ourselves.

1:06:08

and the entire fabric. of pro

1:06:11

wrestling. And, uh, but you got

1:06:13

it at the end of the

1:06:15

day, you know, who did we

1:06:18

help here? What did we forward?

1:06:20

You can't go to, you can't

1:06:22

go to Geneva and be neutral

1:06:25

in Switzerland here. You got to

1:06:27

declare something. But absolutely, man, that's

1:06:29

the thing about, and we've seen

1:06:32

it on TV shows all the

1:06:34

time. I'm glad that Tony Khan's

1:06:36

got a little different personality and

1:06:38

theory of that, philosophy of that,

1:06:41

philosophy of that philosophy of that

1:06:43

philosophy of that philosophy of that.

1:06:45

It doesn't hurt to have winners

1:06:48

and losers. I mean we saw

1:06:50

Bureau submit our boy Garbi Allen.

1:06:52

Yeah. And you know in the

1:06:55

old days I did interview just

1:06:57

the other day with USC bypass

1:06:59

and I said one of the

1:07:02

things that the enemy may has

1:07:04

influenced pro wrestling in one way

1:07:06

is that the Maybe faces now

1:07:08

in pro-restly can lose by submission

1:07:11

and it's not considered the unpardonable

1:07:13

sin. Yeah, because back of the

1:07:15

old days, you gotta slip on

1:07:18

the banana peel, you gotta get,

1:07:20

somebody hold the ropes, hold the

1:07:22

tights, something along those lines to

1:07:25

make it work. And anybody should

1:07:27

be able to lose to anybody

1:07:29

else's finish. Yeah. But the... But

1:07:32

when you get dressers involved in

1:07:34

too deeply involved and creative and

1:07:36

they're essentially making the final decision,

1:07:38

they're going to take that easy

1:07:41

way out because they perceive that

1:07:43

will help preserve their push, help

1:07:45

preserve their image, their personas. I

1:07:48

disagree with that whole Harley, especially

1:07:50

in today's world. Fans want to

1:07:52

see conclusions and they want to

1:07:55

see definitive winners and if you're

1:07:57

smart enough booking wise, you've got

1:07:59

a plan, you've got a roadmap.

1:08:02

Know your destination and along that

1:08:04

route. along that journey, sometimes you

1:08:06

gotta do the honors. And it's

1:08:08

not like doing the honors is

1:08:11

this, oh my God, you just

1:08:13

kill this guy, you beat him.

1:08:15

Or shit, that's stupid. But I

1:08:18

will tell you what is it

1:08:20

stupid is you can't go on,

1:08:22

you know, I win one, I

1:08:25

lose one, I win to, I

1:08:27

lose one, whatever. There's gotta be

1:08:29

some momentum involved in this equation.

1:08:32

And Luger at that time, his

1:08:34

momentum was cut up under. Yeah,

1:08:36

the stop and start shit doesn't

1:08:39

work. Oh. So Luger's now refocused

1:08:41

on the US title after defeating

1:08:43

Barry Windham for it and trades

1:08:45

the title back with Michael P.S.

1:08:48

Hayes. Chat me up, Jim. What

1:08:50

did you think of this renewed

1:08:52

push of Duke, Duke, as a

1:08:55

singles performer? No longer the heater

1:08:57

in a trio. Well, I saw

1:08:59

the interview I did with Michael

1:09:02

not too long after that. on

1:09:04

air TV interview somebody sent to

1:09:06

me on Twitter He did a

1:09:09

great promo. That's one thing about

1:09:11

Michael one Michael as a champion

1:09:13

He is the epitome of the

1:09:15

chicken shit heel. Yes And that's

1:09:18

not a negative. Well, I call

1:09:20

Hayes chicken shit. No it's a

1:09:22

term. Yeah, I talked about Bob

1:09:25

root being a wrestling heel I

1:09:27

talked about Michael Hayes being a

1:09:29

chicken shit heel He cheated to

1:09:32

gain unfair advantages. Buddy Landell was

1:09:34

a great chicken shill heel, for

1:09:36

example. There's a lot of them.

1:09:39

Buddy Rogers was a chicken shill

1:09:41

heel. So, I'm not a big

1:09:43

fan of the, of that positioning,

1:09:45

that posturing, quite frankly. But Hayes

1:09:48

was, look, it was, it was,

1:09:50

it hit the restart, but, but

1:09:52

it did. Yeah. And he always

1:09:55

knew that Michael. If he could

1:09:57

get out of the match with

1:09:59

his title, his interview... were going

1:10:02

to the main event level no

1:10:04

matter what. Because Hayes could cut

1:10:06

a wrestling promo as good as

1:10:09

anybody around for many many years.

1:10:11

And so I saw that I

1:10:13

was a little surprised because Michael

1:10:15

here to poor have been kind

1:10:18

of future but you know it's

1:10:20

worth a try. We weren't setting

1:10:22

the world on fire at the

1:10:25

box office. So you know it

1:10:27

was Hayes moving into that spot.

1:10:29

was worth a try. Because at

1:10:32

least you knew that he had

1:10:34

name identity, he knew how to

1:10:36

work, he was a classic chicken

1:10:39

shit heel, and above all were

1:10:41

Michael. He said he could cut

1:10:43

a promo as good as anybody

1:10:45

in the business at that time.

1:10:48

Let's keep it rolling and talk

1:10:50

about Lugar turning heel on Ricky

1:10:52

steamboat and regain his title, a

1:10:55

great American bash. Lugar's working some

1:10:57

of the best wrestlers of all

1:10:59

time, certainly the best of the

1:11:02

era, flare and steamboat. Are you

1:11:04

thinking at this point, his in-ring

1:11:06

work is progressing? Yes, progressing, but

1:11:09

it's hard to be, if you're

1:11:11

of the greenish flavor or color,

1:11:13

being a heel is more challenging

1:11:16

than being a baby-faced. The subtly

1:11:18

is of being a great heel

1:11:20

and knowing how to win, knowing

1:11:22

how to lose, knowing how to

1:11:25

cheat, knowing how to whatever you're

1:11:27

going to do as a heel.

1:11:29

is more daunting to me, maybe

1:11:32

wrong, than being a baby face.

1:11:34

All the baby face is going

1:11:36

to do is learn how to

1:11:39

sell really, really good, never give

1:11:41

up, and have a good finish.

1:11:43

He doesn't have to worry a

1:11:46

lot about psychology if you're good

1:11:48

seller. He's selling levels. He says

1:11:50

you register, you know, you're not

1:11:52

going to sell a jab as

1:11:55

much as you are a big

1:11:57

round-house right hand, and you're just

1:11:59

not. You got to learn to

1:12:02

selling. in levels and and and

1:12:04

that takes a little skill in

1:12:06

time. So I don't think, I

1:12:09

think Lex is always better suited

1:12:11

to be a baby face. But

1:12:13

again, it seemed like it was

1:12:16

a sense of urgency Conrad. We

1:12:18

got to figure out something to

1:12:20

do with it. He looks too

1:12:22

good not to be being used

1:12:25

as a man of enter. So

1:12:27

what's next for Lex is the

1:12:29

Stargate 89. Ironman tournament and I

1:12:32

think you wrote in your book

1:12:34

that this was your idea. It's

1:12:36

flare Lugar sting and great mooda

1:12:39

and the concept is it's going

1:12:41

to be a sports like tournament

1:12:43

and I think you wrote that

1:12:46

it wasn't supported by the creative

1:12:48

team or the wrestlers themselves. Why

1:12:50

do you think that was? Because

1:12:52

somebody's got to lose more than

1:12:55

once. It's around Robin tournament. Everybody

1:12:57

wrestles each other one time and

1:12:59

I think that how are going

1:13:02

to work? What would do? I

1:13:04

guess we're going to do a

1:13:06

lot of DQs or Countouts or

1:13:09

whatever. No? Not really. If you're

1:13:11

good, if you're highly skilled enough,

1:13:13

you know how to lose. And

1:13:16

are you saying that you're above

1:13:18

losing to this other guy's finish,

1:13:20

who's a man of that guy

1:13:23

like you are? They don't flush

1:13:25

with me. So here's the other

1:13:27

thing about that. The booking committee

1:13:29

could not come up with a

1:13:32

better idea. And you know, we

1:13:34

we didn't have a concept. that

1:13:36

particular paper view. So I threw

1:13:39

that idea out there. Everybody had

1:13:41

the opportunity to rebut. But instead

1:13:43

of rebutting and coming up with

1:13:46

a better idea, it was a

1:13:48

lot easier to go tell the

1:13:50

guys in the booking committee, go

1:13:53

tell their buddies in the locker

1:13:55

room, boy, this is a fucking

1:13:57

idea. Several of you are going

1:13:59

to do. the same time we

1:14:02

had that the attack team tournament

1:14:04

right isn't that the same same

1:14:06

deal I think that was a

1:14:09

different show I think so yeah

1:14:11

maybe it was what we did

1:14:13

the same thing the tags yeah

1:14:16

the same thing the tags yeah

1:14:18

the same thing in the tags

1:14:20

Conrad and and it created dream

1:14:23

match scenarios because it wasn't a

1:14:25

matter of the winners advanced and

1:14:27

the losers go home it was

1:14:29

a little point system Got to

1:14:32

make sense, I thought. And so

1:14:34

you have to keep winning and

1:14:36

it's inevitable that somewhere along the

1:14:39

way, it's going to be very

1:14:41

hard for anybody to go through

1:14:43

the damn tournament and not lose

1:14:46

a match. I didn't have a

1:14:48

problem with that. But some of

1:14:50

the guys had a problem with

1:14:53

it, had a problem losing a

1:14:55

fictitious match. Can you fucking believe

1:14:57

that? No. This shit is showbiz.

1:14:59

Yeah. I don't want to be

1:15:02

a town boy. I want to

1:15:04

be an Indian. Come on. It's

1:15:06

just ego and insecurity and so

1:15:09

then my guys from the booking

1:15:11

committee go stir the shit with

1:15:13

their buddies just for the sake

1:15:16

of stirring the shit. That's all.

1:15:18

But okay, then give me a

1:15:20

better idea. We got to do

1:15:23

a paper view. I'm sorry. So

1:15:25

what's your idea? Nobody was ready.

1:15:27

With back and forth book Louvre,

1:15:29

he's up, he's down, he's in,

1:15:32

he's a big face, he's a

1:15:34

heel, whatever. You know, you had

1:15:36

your standards there. I don't know,

1:15:39

man, I just, it was very

1:15:41

disheartening. But that's the nature of

1:15:43

the beast. Can you imagine having

1:15:46

these meetings, discussing the paper view,

1:15:48

nobody having a great idea, and

1:15:50

then you have an idea? that

1:15:53

you can either agree with or

1:15:55

not nobody said shit with a

1:15:57

mouthful and all of a sudden

1:16:00

You know, you're, it's just, it's

1:16:02

just, it's just, it's basically not,

1:16:05

I'm going to say leaked, just

1:16:07

discussed in locker room, because here's

1:16:09

the deal. The guys that were

1:16:11

wrestlers on the booking committee wanted

1:16:14

to make sure that their buddies

1:16:16

on the roster knew that they

1:16:18

were not responsible for this hideous

1:16:20

booking that JR came up with.

1:16:23

Simple as that. They were to

1:16:25

defer all the heat and not

1:16:27

taking any responsibility for what the

1:16:29

team decided to do. Well, it

1:16:32

wasn't me, hey, oh no, no,

1:16:34

it wasn't me, man. You know,

1:16:36

I'm a genius. So what was

1:16:38

your fucking idea? Two weeks ago,

1:16:41

or three weeks ago, you had

1:16:43

none. You never got damn idea,

1:16:45

not a clue. You just came

1:16:47

like a cabbage, all head, no

1:16:50

rear end, nothing. So, I don't

1:16:52

know. That's why I say having

1:16:54

a booking committee with active participants

1:16:56

on it that have a dog,

1:16:59

have dogs in the hunt, worst.

1:17:01

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1:17:03

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1:18:29

So we all know that Sting

1:18:31

and Flair are supposed to face

1:18:33

each other at Russell War in

1:18:36

90, but Sting blew his knee

1:18:38

out. So they turn Lugar back

1:18:40

face very quickly out of nowhere.

1:18:42

And then he loses and stings

1:18:45

things place by count out. And

1:18:47

you said your book that Luger

1:18:49

was heating up as an arrogant

1:18:51

villain. And now we've sort of

1:18:54

as Arne likes to say cut

1:18:56

his water off. Yep, he's flip-clopping.

1:18:58

I'm a baby face. I'm a

1:19:00

heel. I'm a baby face. I'm

1:19:03

a heel. The only thing consistent

1:19:05

is when he gets a sniff

1:19:07

at flare in the world title,

1:19:09

he comes up short. This is

1:19:12

almost a theme throughout his career.

1:19:14

It feels like they did this.

1:19:16

with him in the W.W.F. 2.

1:19:18

What is it about Lex that,

1:19:21

you know, this keeps coming up?

1:19:23

Well, he wasn't, Lex is not

1:19:25

real political. Okay. To his credit,

1:19:27

he didn't politic finishes and matches

1:19:30

as much as some of his

1:19:32

peers did. Was it to his

1:19:34

detriment? But he's political too. Yeah,

1:19:36

probably probably was probably was. He

1:19:39

need to speak up. Yeah. But

1:19:41

that was again, I told you

1:19:43

earlier when we were not chatting

1:19:45

about this. He was very, he's

1:19:48

kind of an introverted guy. Yeah.

1:19:50

You know, he could be very

1:19:52

quiet and locker. And maybe later

1:19:54

on in his career, he got

1:19:57

a little bit more vocal, felt

1:19:59

more confident that he could carry

1:20:01

an argument and in or in

1:20:03

just a five or so. But

1:20:06

he was. The last heel run,

1:20:08

I thought as I wrote, the

1:20:10

slavronach around the black hat that

1:20:12

he was getting close and then

1:20:15

you can't turn that many times

1:20:17

man just kiss a death a

1:20:19

veteran wrestler Conrad with an audience

1:20:21

and a voice would not have

1:20:24

gone for that shit you think

1:20:26

Rick Claire would have gone for

1:20:28

it Gotta be a gladiator, wear

1:20:30

ponytail, blah blah blah. I might

1:20:33

do it for a minute. I

1:20:35

ain't doing that. And it didn't

1:20:37

make any sense. So I felt

1:20:39

badly for Lex in that regard.

1:20:42

Lex Luger is a great example

1:20:44

of a phenomenal looking talent. They

1:20:46

got booked like shit more often

1:20:48

than not. And I say that

1:20:51

because the booking like shit line.

1:20:53

or theory for me is the

1:20:55

fact that he kept getting, he

1:20:57

kept changing personas. Yeah, I don't

1:21:00

know if I'm supposed to like

1:21:02

your ass Conrad or pay money

1:21:04

to see you get your ass

1:21:07

wet. It was total confusion. It

1:21:09

was, you know, just, it's more

1:21:11

haze and clutter cloudiness than somebody

1:21:13

smoking a joint in a pickup

1:21:16

truck. Let's talk about the Ollie

1:21:18

coming back. He comes back as

1:21:20

Booker and is reported that on

1:21:22

March 23rd Blair was supposed to

1:21:25

lose the W.C.W. title Alex Liger

1:21:27

and a house show in Chicago.

1:21:29

They even have a film crew

1:21:31

come along Lance Russell is there.

1:21:34

Chris Cruz is there. They're supposed

1:21:36

to be covering the event. But

1:21:38

allegedly, according to the rumor and

1:21:40

innuendo, Blair vetoed it and said

1:21:43

that he wasn't given enough notice

1:21:45

or time for this. What do

1:21:47

you make of this? Do you

1:21:49

remember this being the case that

1:21:52

Blair vetoed the the title switch?

1:21:54

I think he fairly did it

1:21:56

didn't have it. No, it did

1:21:58

not happen. You said a minute

1:22:01

ago that you didn't think Lex

1:22:03

was political or maybe to his

1:22:05

detriment. You have an issue with

1:22:07

Flair not wanting to put him

1:22:10

over? He might have got, he

1:22:12

might have got there, Conrad. Sorry,

1:22:14

you may have gotten there to

1:22:16

that point because it happened. A

1:22:19

lot. A lot. Yeah. And maybe

1:22:21

Lex didn't have the experience or

1:22:23

the self-confidence to articulate his opinion.

1:22:25

But golly, man. Yeah. I don't

1:22:28

know exactly where they were and

1:22:30

all that stuff, but I think

1:22:32

that probably Nate's got some heat

1:22:34

on him for that, from some

1:22:37

of the guys. And some of

1:22:39

the younger guys are saying, you

1:22:41

know, is there ever going to

1:22:43

be that top spot going to

1:22:46

be available for somebody else to

1:22:48

try to get over? And it's

1:22:50

hard to make an argument, a

1:22:52

negative argument about Blair, because he's

1:22:55

the greatest of all time. That's

1:22:57

what you got with that deal.

1:22:59

He was the greatest of all

1:23:01

time and and he's and in

1:23:04

that era He was he was

1:23:06

Blair should have been the baby

1:23:08

face. Yeah Blair should have been

1:23:10

the baby face and these and

1:23:13

then the young upstart Lex Lugar

1:23:15

bigger stronger younger blah blah blah

1:23:17

blah then had his position in

1:23:19

his run and you get Lugar

1:23:22

a series of good wins And

1:23:24

it's the final, final, you get

1:23:26

into these single matches with the

1:23:28

horsemen. And finally, the old bounty

1:23:31

type scenario where we got to

1:23:33

put this some bitch up because

1:23:35

he's coming for an H. And

1:23:37

that's our bell cow. They've been

1:23:40

so easily booked, but the politics

1:23:42

just kept going back and forth

1:23:44

and back and forth. It just

1:23:46

kept being more diluted, watered down.

1:23:49

It wasn't good. It wasn't good

1:23:51

at all. And it didn't help

1:23:53

the company. when your top when

1:23:55

your main title is is so

1:23:58

ten and tentative, tentatively booked, short-term

1:24:00

booked, doesn't make any sense. Well,

1:24:02

we know that Ollie was not

1:24:04

a big fan of flares, and

1:24:07

we also know that Lugar had

1:24:09

a little quote-unquote heat, that's the

1:24:11

rumor, backstage based on his contract

1:24:14

value. How much of those two

1:24:16

things do you think played into

1:24:18

flare wanting to dig us heels

1:24:20

in? The fact that Ollie was

1:24:23

back and he knew that Ollie

1:24:25

was not a fan of his.

1:24:27

And the fact that Lugar, supposedly,

1:24:29

supposedly, supposedly, had one of the

1:24:32

richest contracts in wrestling and maybe

1:24:34

Flair took issue with that. I

1:24:36

don't know that Flair was making

1:24:38

less money than Lugar. Are you

1:24:41

the, are you under the impression

1:24:43

that Lex was getting paid more

1:24:45

than Rick? No, I don't think

1:24:47

so, but I am saying if

1:24:50

he thought this guy's got the

1:24:52

big contract and now they want

1:24:54

to take the belt off me

1:24:56

when I quote unquote made him.

1:24:59

Yeah, I ain't doing that. But

1:25:01

why wouldn't you want to do

1:25:03

that? I don't want to do

1:25:05

want to do that. Yeah. Because

1:25:08

Rick would know that he's going

1:25:10

to get it back. Right, of

1:25:12

course. And so you have the

1:25:14

chance to make somebody to that

1:25:17

next step. I think it would

1:25:19

have been the way to go.

1:25:21

The arrogant young, Lex Louvre, Eel,

1:25:23

beating Flair, works for me in

1:25:26

that particular era. It's

1:25:28

either that or you need to

1:25:30

just let Lex go. But you've

1:25:33

already devalued the shit out of

1:25:35

them. So if you're not going

1:25:37

to use him, then you're going

1:25:40

to pay that big money to

1:25:42

keep him for what? Right. He's

1:25:44

got to be in the main,

1:25:47

it's a salary structure that you've

1:25:49

established for him. You've got to,

1:25:52

you're almost obligated as a company

1:25:54

person to make sure that Lugar

1:25:56

is being utilized so that he

1:25:59

has the best chance to. earn

1:26:01

his downside guarantee. And I don't.

1:26:04

So that was that happened that

1:26:06

often, relaxed, at least for that

1:26:08

length of time. Let's talk a

1:26:11

little bit about what's next. Unfortunately,

1:26:13

it's bad news for Lugar. He's

1:26:15

got a serious injury issue. It's

1:26:18

going to lead to a staff

1:26:20

infection. He's going to come off

1:26:23

all the shows until the big

1:26:25

paper view, where once again, he's

1:26:27

in the main event against Rick

1:26:30

Flair. But next verse, same as

1:26:32

the first, Lugar wins, but by

1:26:34

DQ, the belt does not change

1:26:37

hands. And here's what makes this

1:26:39

even more complicated. This DQN happens

1:26:42

in a damn steel cage match.

1:26:44

I mean, I know. It's ridiculous.

1:26:46

They kept looking for ways to

1:26:49

take the chief out. And now

1:26:51

they're going to whore up the

1:26:53

cage scenario. Right. Makes no sense,

1:26:56

Conrad. It's just, you know, where

1:26:58

we talk about this, it's like.

1:27:01

When he, cumulatively, when all these

1:27:03

points that you're making, and they're,

1:27:05

it's all historic, it's all documented,

1:27:08

you know, the more you hear

1:27:10

about it, it's like, what were

1:27:12

we thinking? And this is wrestling

1:27:15

politics at its very, very best.

1:27:17

Oldies of Booker, he doesn't like

1:27:20

the champion. The champion doesn't want

1:27:22

to lose his place, and the

1:27:24

guy that's the... kind of the

1:27:27

third guy out of this equation

1:27:29

is as a challenge. So I

1:27:32

don't know. I, it's amazing that

1:27:34

I can see why we were

1:27:36

not drawing any money and that

1:27:39

we weren't doing well at W.C.W.

1:27:41

in that particular point in time.

1:27:43

Let's talk a little bit about

1:27:46

what Lugar is going to be

1:27:48

successful with and that's his US

1:27:51

title run. 523 days. the longest

1:27:53

reign of any U.S. champion ever

1:27:55

through all the incarnations and then

1:27:58

ultimately he drops it to Stan

1:28:00

Hansen and then gets it right

1:28:02

back you and I are both

1:28:05

both big Stan Hansen fans. What

1:28:07

did you think of the Stan

1:28:10

Hansen Lex Luger matches? Well, it

1:28:12

was kind of cruel booking. Stan

1:28:14

had his way with Lex. Stan

1:28:17

was old school. You know, I

1:28:19

don't mind. Stan did not like

1:28:21

doing jobs, but who does? And

1:28:24

he also had his territory of

1:28:26

Japan that he's tried to protect.

1:28:29

And the media course is going

1:28:31

to. Fort losses and all that

1:28:33

of the stuff. But Stan was

1:28:36

a pretty rugged on Lex. I

1:28:38

think it was at Starcade or

1:28:40

something. It was a pay-for-view. We

1:28:43

had the Black Scorpion show. And

1:28:45

then St. Louis at the Keal.

1:28:48

The Black Scorpion was in the

1:28:50

main event against Stane. Earlier on

1:28:52

that card, or as a... What's

1:28:55

Walter Winch would say? Earlier that

1:28:57

night, the gangland hideout of Illy

1:29:00

and Death. That type of deal.

1:29:02

It was Lex Lugar and Stan.

1:29:04

And the idea that we came

1:29:07

up with, it was to be

1:29:09

a bullrope match. And the bull,

1:29:11

they're tied, they're joined at the

1:29:14

wrist by separate ends of a

1:29:16

bullrope. Strapped or whatever. And you

1:29:19

had to touch off four corners.

1:29:21

Win. So that way we escaped

1:29:23

by using the stipulation Lugar finally

1:29:26

succeeded in touching all four-term vocal,

1:29:28

top-term vocals, and therefore won the

1:29:30

match. And Stan didn't have to

1:29:33

lose by submission, which was never

1:29:35

going to happen, or Penfall. So

1:29:38

it was a tough looking for

1:29:40

Lex. Now it looked great on

1:29:42

paper. You know, and Hansen getting

1:29:45

the theory was, well, Hansen wins

1:29:47

and wins a close one. wins

1:29:49

the title, you'll like that. He

1:29:52

gives Lugar an automatic return type

1:29:54

thing, another match on a pay-for-view

1:29:57

and a main event level, which

1:29:59

should help him make a little

1:30:01

bit more cash. And so there

1:30:04

he went. But it was rugged.

1:30:06

Stan was, but Stan didn't do

1:30:09

it because he didn't like Lex,

1:30:11

Conrad. He did it because that's

1:30:13

the way Stan works. He beats

1:30:16

the shit out of people. And

1:30:18

he got over doing that. That's

1:30:20

why a lot of guys love

1:30:23

working with Stan, even though when

1:30:25

he was coming across the rain

1:30:28

to deliver that lariat and his

1:30:30

eyes out was so poor, you're

1:30:32

scared to death and he's going

1:30:35

to hit you right the nose

1:30:37

or something like that. I've heard

1:30:39

that story. It's funny and hell,

1:30:42

guys. Here he comes and I'll

1:30:44

hope he sees my head or

1:30:47

he knows what to hit me

1:30:49

or whatever. So I don't know,

1:30:51

man. I think that I like

1:30:54

that I didn't have a problem

1:30:56

with it. But I know that

1:30:58

Stan took his some liberties. with

1:31:01

Lugar and laid his stuff in.

1:31:03

And if you go back and

1:31:06

look at that match, understand, beat

1:31:08

the holy shit out of Lex

1:31:10

that scrap. I don't know why

1:31:13

he's like weapon of government deal,

1:31:15

man, he beat the dog shit

1:31:17

out of it. So, but there

1:31:20

again, you go back to the

1:31:22

concept, well, you gotta, if you're

1:31:25

gonna have a win, and basically

1:31:27

enhancing its match, so to speak,

1:31:29

it wasn't, but we said it

1:31:32

was. Then that's what you're gonna

1:31:34

get. You know we booked it

1:31:37

and stand executed it and Lugar

1:31:39

was the victim of some some

1:31:41

abuse I guess you should say

1:31:44

this old school arrest was what

1:31:46

it was. Let's talk about what's

1:31:48

next for him here. We should

1:31:51

mention that when Nikita comes back

1:31:53

at the feud with Lugar he

1:31:56

some reasons which is right away

1:31:58

the sting. Do you recall why

1:32:00

that was I mean it feels

1:32:03

like He's here to focus on.

1:32:05

Lex, I mean, even if tax

1:32:07

him in his return, but then

1:32:10

very quickly it goes right into

1:32:12

Sting. Any recollection of why that

1:32:15

would have been? More indecisive booking

1:32:17

or mixed opinions on Lex. You

1:32:19

know, I always thought that once

1:32:22

we got to the Lugar Sting

1:32:24

level match, that Lex had feel

1:32:26

more comfortable. I

1:32:29

think the friendship was good between

1:32:31

the two, they communicated well, in

1:32:33

other words, but I thought that

1:32:36

their chemistry would probably have been

1:32:38

one of the better things that

1:32:40

could have happened to Lugar, and

1:32:43

the sting for that matter. Stig

1:32:45

was a better worker and more

1:32:48

advanced, but I thought that the

1:32:50

chemistry between the two would equate

1:32:52

to some really good one-on-one matches.

1:32:56

Let's talk a little bit about

1:32:58

Lugar's big crowning moment. He finally

1:33:00

becomes world champion, but it's when

1:33:02

Rick Blair's not here. Of course,

1:33:04

Rick Blair and Jim Hurts few

1:33:07

came to a head, player walks

1:33:09

out, takes the belt with him.

1:33:11

So Great American Bash is going

1:33:13

to be a bit of a

1:33:15

change instead of it being Lugar

1:33:17

and Flair for the 900th time.

1:33:19

Now it's Lugar and Windham and

1:33:21

Lugar gets the win in 12

1:33:24

minutes and 25 seconds. And we

1:33:26

should mention, he does so as

1:33:28

a heel as a heel. Harley

1:33:30

race with him. Harley race with

1:33:32

him. Harley race with him. He's

1:33:34

got Mr. Hughes with him. The

1:33:36

magic is what it is, but

1:33:38

fans that night were more concerned

1:33:41

with we want flare chance. It

1:33:43

should be a tremendous event. Barry

1:33:45

Wynda. This great American bash from

1:33:47

1991 in Baltimore is being one

1:33:49

of the worst paper view shows

1:33:51

ever. But it's not necessarily like

1:33:53

any of this is Lexus fault.

1:33:55

The story that that has maintained

1:33:58

as you and I've told us

1:34:00

today is Lex. While he may

1:34:02

not have been the best wrestler,

1:34:04

was not a political person, was

1:34:06

doing his job. job, trying to

1:34:08

get better, and had a lot

1:34:10

of stop and start booking, some

1:34:12

questionable creative, and was never given

1:34:15

the opportunity to be champ. And

1:34:17

when he does, boy, it goes

1:34:19

over like a turn to punch

1:34:21

ball. And again, not exactly his

1:34:23

fault. Tough spot to be in

1:34:25

for Lex. I wonder, have you

1:34:27

ever seen a turn to punch

1:34:29

ball? Nope, but I know that

1:34:32

descriptoror, I learned that church fault

1:34:34

places. Yeah. And then of course

1:34:36

we all learned about, it went

1:34:38

over like a farting church. Park

1:34:40

Church is one of my favorites.

1:34:42

Yeah, especially those wooden views, because

1:34:44

you may think you got a

1:34:46

squeaker and then the audience finds

1:34:49

out something different. The reverberates. Yeah,

1:34:51

it echoes throughout the hell halls

1:34:53

of our sanctuary. Learn the hard

1:34:55

way, I guess, in 92, 93.

1:34:57

Yeah. You know

1:34:59

again, it's just mumbled fumbled

1:35:01

jumbled craziness man and we

1:35:03

gotta we gotta do or

1:35:05

get off the pot and

1:35:07

You know you just said

1:35:09

well ago about Lugar finally

1:35:11

wins the title, but he

1:35:13

wins against Barry Windham who

1:35:15

we was fast Barry's greatness

1:35:18

But to say that Barry

1:35:20

was more over than Rick

1:35:22

was more over than Rick

1:35:24

was more than Rick's would

1:35:26

be a lie. Yeah, I

1:35:28

think we can conclusively say

1:35:30

that would not be true.

1:35:32

So, so now Lex is

1:35:34

finally the champion. It is

1:35:36

somewhat of a watered down

1:35:38

version because nobody in the

1:35:40

W. C. W. As president

1:35:42

whenever was more associated with

1:35:44

the top championship in Rick

1:35:46

Flair. But Lex didn't get

1:35:48

that that luxury. So, you

1:35:50

know, it's too bad. He

1:35:52

again, like I said, he.

1:35:54

Luger's booking. was far from

1:35:56

ideal. And I've often said

1:35:58

that if he had loved

1:36:00

the business more, it probably

1:36:02

would have come up, it

1:36:04

might have been, it might

1:36:06

have solved a problem because

1:36:08

he'd have been, the squeaky

1:36:10

wheel does get greased more

1:36:12

often than not, but that

1:36:14

was not the case. He

1:36:16

was getting paid a lot

1:36:18

of money and I think

1:36:20

that was his primary motivator

1:36:22

because how could you become

1:36:24

emotionally invested? And this weak-ass,

1:36:26

wicker and cat-pissed book it.

1:36:28

And by the way, cat-pissed

1:36:30

is weak. A weaker cat-pissed.

1:36:32

A new shirt at Box

1:36:34

of gimmicks.com, ladies and gentlemen.

1:36:36

So anyway, I think Luger

1:36:38

that that at some point

1:36:40

was just kind of, let

1:36:42

me finish out here as

1:36:44

best I can before I

1:36:46

get to work for Vince.

1:36:48

Because this journey has not

1:36:51

been good. Well, and the

1:36:53

bookings just bad. I mean,

1:36:55

even Melts were right of

1:36:57

this match, you know, where

1:36:59

he finally does become world

1:37:01

champion. Windom was distracted by

1:37:03

Hughes and race told Lugar

1:37:05

to do it, talking about

1:37:07

the pile driver. Lugar gave

1:37:09

Windom a pile driver and

1:37:11

pinned him after the match,

1:37:13

Lugar left with race and