0:00

We are in a cyber war. We are in

0:02

World War 3. You're in a completely

0:04

different mindset when you're

0:06

in war. You're thinking

0:08

differently, you're acting differently,

0:10

you're paranoid, you're concerned.

0:12

The problem we have in the

0:15

United States, we have peacetime mentality.

0:17

We're acting and behaving like we

0:20

trust people. When links come in

0:22

and people click on it, that's

0:24

peacetime mentality. But the reality is

0:27

if we knew we were at

0:29

war. and we had war, time,

0:32

mentality, and a link came in,

0:34

we wouldn't even think of

0:36

clicking it. Mm-mm. Who

0:38

says tech can't be

0:40

human? What's

0:59

going on, Hacker Valley fam? Welcome

1:01

back to the show. With me, I

1:03

have someone on this episode

1:06

that has paved the way

1:08

for people like myself, this

1:10

quote-unquote area and genre of

1:13

cyber security influencers, but. Just

1:15

like myself, this person, my guest for

1:17

this episode, isn't just someone that talks

1:20

about cybersecurity. They have the chops, they

1:22

have the background, and I would consider

1:24

them a triple OG in the game.

1:27

My special guest for this episode is

1:29

Dr. Eric Cole. Dr. Eric Cole is

1:31

the CEO and founder of Secure Anchor

1:33

Consulting. Eric, when you and your team

1:36

reached out to us on Instagram, I

1:38

was like, Eric. But I'm glad that we

1:40

made this happen. I'm glad that I

1:42

finally get a chance to speak to

1:44

you, because I've been following you for

1:46

a long time. Most importantly, welcome to

1:48

the show. Pleasure to be here, my

1:50

friend, and I'm looking forward to some

1:53

fun conversation. Yes, sir. So let's start

1:55

way back, way, way, way back. When

1:57

I first got on the cybersecurity, you

1:59

were already... figure in

2:01

the industry. I think that you

2:03

were at Sands at the time,

2:05

but when I was doing my

2:08

research for this episode, I saw

2:10

that, you know, not only were

2:12

you at Sands for quite a

2:14

while, but your career transcends just

2:16

that what I knew. Like you

2:19

worked at the CIA, DOD contractors.

2:21

So I want to start back

2:23

in the very beginning. What was

2:25

what was cybersecurity when you first

2:27

learned about it? Was it hacking?

2:30

Was a phone freaking? How did

2:32

you get into this crazy world?

2:34

Yeah, so I actually started at

2:36

the CIA in 1990. It was

2:38

January, mid-January 1990, and just sort

2:41

of put things in perspective, because

2:43

we forget how far we've come.

2:45

The worldwide web wasn't actually invented

2:47

until 92. Like, you didn't have

2:49

a website, so the CIA did

2:52

not have a website in 1990.

2:54

And remember, invented in 1992. means

2:56

the web really become mainstream until

2:58

94-95. Google. Google. It wasn't incorporated

3:00

until 1998. I mean that's crazy

3:02

like eight years later. So when

3:05

I got involved, the internet was

3:07

basically a next computer. If you

3:09

remember, next was a spin-off company

3:11

that Steve Jobs did when Apple

3:13

basically kicked them out. So the

3:16

next computer, it was a next

3:18

computer. And remember CIA headquarters, we

3:20

had a special area on class

3:22

and everything else, and it was

3:24

basically all command line. It was

3:27

just command line, news groups, and

3:29

it was all about research and

3:31

sharing information. It was basically universities

3:33

and companies were on there. I

3:35

mean, there was no business, there

3:38

was no e-commerce, there was none

3:40

of that. And how I got

3:42

involved is, I was working and

3:44

this is all stuff I can

3:46

talk about now, but I worked

3:49

in an area. in the CIA

3:51

called COVCOM or covert communications and

3:53

in 1990. It was all RF.

3:55

It was all radio frequency devices,

3:57

closed circuit, RF. So when you

4:00

going in and had to exchange

4:02

information with somebody in a covert

4:04

manner, you had to be within

4:06

50, 60, 70 feet. which is

4:08

you can imagine is high risk

4:11

because if you and me are

4:13

not supposed to be associated with

4:15

each other we're not supposed to

4:17

be meaning any connection between me

4:19

and you could hurt you hurt

4:22

me put us at risk and

4:24

we had to get within 50

4:26

feet of each other and we

4:28

had to do that weekly from

4:30

a pattern matching observing perspective that's

4:33

huge risk because they're gonna go

4:35

in and say okay how come

4:37

every Friday Eric and Ron are

4:39

in the same coffee shop I

4:41

mean that's how this this was

4:44

cold war Right, 1990 Cold War,

4:46

Russia, US did not get along

4:48

at all. And we're talking about

4:50

using the internet, right? Could we

4:52

use the internet? Because the internet

4:55

allows two people to cross channels,

4:57

but they could be anywhere in

4:59

the world. So I could be

5:01

in a news group. A professor

5:03

from Russia could just happen to

5:06

be in the same news group.

5:08

And that would not look normal.

5:10

Nobody's monitoring that. Nobody was tracking

5:12

it in a 1990. So like,

5:14

hm. What if we sort of

5:17

used the internet for doing this

5:19

and I'm sitting in a meeting

5:21

and I asked a question that

5:23

basically changed the trajectory of my

5:25

life because in 1990 when I

5:27

started at the CIA I was

5:30

doing AI programming. So I wasn't

5:32

in cybersecurity. I was actually programming

5:34

and I actually built a system

5:36

that actually would help track and

5:38

monitor terrorists and actually using AI

5:41

predictive modeling neural networks rule base

5:43

Systems and actually got a lot

5:45

of awards from the DCI and

5:47

others for doing that So I

5:49

was not a cyber guy in

5:52

1990, but I was doing the

5:54

communication area with AI programming and

5:56

I asked a question in a

5:58

meeting that changed my life And

6:00

this is where I come up

6:03

with my phrase that I live

6:05

by, which is smart people know

6:07

the right answer. Brilliant people ask

6:09

the right question. And I asked,

6:11

I didn't realize it at the

6:14

time, but I asked a brilliant

6:16

question, which was, okay, we're moving

6:18

systems to the internet. How do

6:20

we know they're secure? How do

6:22

we know they're safe? How do

6:25

we know that there's not somebody

6:27

watching or monitoring us? And in

6:29

the government, if you ask questions

6:31

that most businesses are the same,

6:33

if you ask a question that

6:36

nobody knows the answer to, you're

6:38

volunteering to solve it. So they

6:40

basically said, okay, you're now a

6:42

team of one, you're gonna be

6:44

a four month special project, we're

6:47

gonna give you some money, and

6:49

you're gonna go in and show

6:51

us how to create secure systems

6:53

on the internet. and back then

6:55

you had software development life cycles

6:58

like you had you had ways

7:00

to develop software you had the

7:02

waterfall model you had the spiral

7:04

model rad was just coming on

7:06

the scenes in 1990 so i

7:09

figured i was basically going to

7:11

create a software development life cycle

7:13

for security of basically how can

7:15

you build secure systems guaranteed testing

7:17

verification create the test what i

7:20

quickly realized which we all realize

7:22

today is today is today You

7:24

can't prove a system of secure.

7:26

It's impossible. So that's when I

7:28

embarked on, okay, the only way

7:31

to prove a system of secure

7:33

is to try to break into

7:35

it, is to try to exploit

7:37

it. And that's when I began

7:39

a career of being a professional

7:41

hacker, where basically I was given

7:44

a lab and I, I mean,

7:46

I. still today. I mean, you

7:48

give me hexadecible packet decodes and

7:50

I can read it like it's

7:52

English because that's just what I've

7:55

done for like 30 years. People

7:57

think I'm crazy, which I probably

7:59

am, but like packet decodes, protocols,

8:01

ports, services, exploitation. develop my model

8:03

where it's basically you need visible

8:06

IPs open ports weaknesses and servers

8:08

exploitation create back doors covert operations

8:10

where I develop basically my offensive

8:12

mindset that is really sort of

8:14

set the stage for the rest

8:17

of my career. I love that

8:19

story I love it because that's

8:21

you know I feel like in

8:23

the best ways people often have

8:25

the opportunity thrown in their lap.

8:28

It's almost like The hand of

8:30

God, X Makina, when you want

8:32

something, like I want to know

8:34

how this thing is, how these

8:36

computer systems are not going to

8:39

be hacked or how they're going

8:41

to be secure, someone says, well,

8:43

here you go. Here's the answer,

8:45

but the answer is within you.

8:47

I think that's powerful. And what

8:50

I also loved about the story

8:52

is the focus on the fundamentals.

8:54

I talk about it all the

8:56

time. with my family, people I

8:58

have a mentoring session tomorrow with

9:01

a young 22-year-old, and I was

9:03

talking to him about all of

9:05

the fundamentals. If you can understand

9:07

how your web browser speaks to

9:09

Google.com and all of the things

9:12

that happened in between, by just

9:14

definition, you now know a lot

9:16

of information. And just knowing that

9:18

makes you eligible, not only for

9:20

jobs, but for opportunity. Exactly. And

9:23

that's my whole thing where my

9:25

career, my life, how I do

9:27

everything is really, I drive my

9:29

kids crazy because I'm like back

9:31

to the basics and keep things

9:34

simple. Like when my life starts

9:36

getting crazy and I had there

9:38

where I mean I had so

9:40

many apps, so many texts, so

9:42

many computers, so many cars and

9:45

like my life was out of

9:47

control and I'm just like simplify.

9:49

What is the simple basic things

9:51

I need to live my life?

9:53

Let me do that for a

9:56

month. So to humble, get back

9:58

to basics, very simple. Same thing

10:00

with eating. Like, I don't believe

10:02

in complex diets. Just go back

10:04

to the basics. If it has

10:06

one ingredients, you eat it. Beef

10:09

has one ingredients. Guess what? Processed

10:11

cheese doesn't have one ingredient. Broccoli,

10:13

one ingredient. So you just go

10:15

back to simple and it's funny,

10:17

your body, your life and your

10:20

mind can reset and readjust because

10:22

we're really simple creatures. We're not

10:24

meant for the, like everything on

10:26

the internet and social media and

10:28

fast-paced world is our minds are

10:31

like melting down because we were

10:33

not created for complexity. And at

10:35

some point we always end up

10:37

back to the basics, back to

10:39

the root of either a question

10:42

or a solution or an answer.

10:44

And I would imagine in some

10:46

ways you might feel that way

10:48

because you mentioned that you were

10:50

focused on AI development. And now

10:53

2025, everybody can't get enough of

10:55

AI and you were looking at

10:57

neural networks well before they became

10:59

in the mainstream. What is your

11:01

reflection on where we were at

11:04

then and where we're at now?

11:06

So the big reflection is, which

11:08

I think people are missing to

11:10

our detriment, AI, artificial intelligence, whatever

11:12

discipline, whether you're talking about neural

11:15

networks, machine learning, rule-based systems, artificial

11:17

intelligence about one simple thing, data

11:19

sets. The better data you can

11:21

give it, the more artificial intelligence

11:23

will be. It's not about the

11:26

algorithms, it's not about open AI

11:28

versus Grog3, it's not about via

11:30

with the GPUs and 100 million

11:32

dollars, it's basically the data. If

11:34

you give AI enough data, it

11:37

will become smarter and smarter and

11:39

can simulate artificial intelligence. And to

11:41

me, we're in this very dangerous

11:43

spot because we are sharing. our

11:45

entire lives online. Look at what

11:48

people post on social media, public

11:50

media, pictures of their family, pictures

11:52

of their kids. I mean, it's

11:54

insane. Why would you give that

11:56

away publicly? And the more data...

11:59

AI has, the more we're giving

12:01

it, the smarter it can be.

12:03

And we're at a stage where

12:05

it's scary because you watch movies

12:07

from the 80s that you think

12:10

are totally science fiction. And we're

12:12

basically creating digital twins.

12:14

And if we're not careful, these digital

12:17

teams will be as smart and as

12:19

brilliant at us and essentially

12:21

can make us obsolete. Maybe, yeah,

12:23

and like we were saying, might be even

12:26

better. Sometimes when I am speaking to someone,

12:28

or especially, like, you know, on the line

12:30

with the customer support rep, I do think

12:32

about all the other things I could be

12:35

doing with my time, I wish it would

12:37

hurry up, like, come on, get going, and

12:39

we're seeing that now, especially with things like

12:41

chat bots. Chat bots are becoming better and

12:44

better, right now, there's still a little bit

12:46

of a friction to work with them, but

12:48

I could see a world in 10. 15

12:50

years, maybe even sooner, where

12:52

chat bots are performing at

12:55

the same level as a human

12:57

rep. I mean, just pick

12:59

anyone, any political figure. They

13:02

have digital twins that are

13:04

creating alternative content.

13:06

Like, I won't get political,

13:08

I'll just sort of talk

13:11

factual, but the president of

13:13

the country gave a speech

13:15

on Tuesday. There are clips of

13:17

him. giving the speech,

13:20

it looks like him, I mean

13:22

there's no glitches, there's

13:24

nothing, except it's

13:26

saying alternative information,

13:28

they've already done deep

13:30

fake of it. So now I have

13:32

a situation where I go in

13:35

to my browser and there are

13:37

three versions of his speech.

13:39

One is real, it actually

13:42

happened, the other two are

13:44

alternative manipulations, and here is

13:46

the problem. I'm a smart

13:49

person. I work in this field. I

13:51

know how to do analytics. I

13:53

can't tell the difference. And

13:55

now that's scary. So now the

13:57

question is, who do we believe?

14:00

and who is really leading when

14:02

people watch this stuff. So we're

14:04

in a really scary place where

14:06

our laws haven't kept up, and

14:08

this is the problem. If I

14:10

go in in the real world

14:12

and I say false things about

14:14

you, I go in and I

14:17

say, Ron is a criminal, or

14:19

Ron is this or Ron is

14:21

that, and it is not true,

14:23

there's defamation laws. You can actually

14:25

file civil or criminal action against

14:27

me, and I could potentially either

14:29

get... financial fines are depending on

14:32

the severity of it, jail time

14:34

for it. So I'm prohibited from

14:36

doing it. Problem is, when they

14:38

wrote the Constitution, I'm pretty sure,

14:40

Ron, you probably agree with me

14:42

on this, I don't think George

14:44

Washington had an iPad, like I

14:47

wasn't there, I could be wrong,

14:49

but I'm pretty sure he didn't

14:51

have an iPad, and he wasn't

14:53

thinking this, and the problem is

14:55

our current laws, don't cover it.

14:57

So if I go in. And

14:59

I create a video of you

15:02

that puts you in an incriminating

15:04

situation that embarrasses you, hurt your

15:06

reputation, causes issues with your family.

15:08

It's not illegal. You can't do

15:10

anything against it. And that's the

15:12

problem today is we're in a

15:14

lawless society on the internet and

15:17

it is scary my friend. The

15:19

internet's always been one of those

15:21

places. It's been a little lawless.

15:23

I was telling my wife a

15:25

few months ago about... the lawless

15:27

internet that I grew up in.

15:29

Like there was a very little

15:31

censorship, very little tracking, so you

15:34

could really be anonymous in a

15:36

great deal, a great type of

15:38

way. But now it is a

15:40

little bit more surveyed, but you're

15:42

right. It's still lawless because in

15:44

the 2024 election, there was someone

15:46

that used a deep fake of

15:49

Biden. And he got fine, I

15:51

think like five million dollars. And

15:53

you know what he said? I

15:55

do it again, it was worth

15:57

it. Even though he's facing this

15:59

punishment and... you know, could be

16:01

in trouble. For some people, even

16:04

if you slap them with a

16:06

monetary challenge in front of them,

16:08

they might say, I don't care.

16:10

My mission was accomplished. I did

16:12

what I felt as though was

16:14

the right thing to do, even

16:16

though you're violating someone's trust and

16:19

their reputation. Yeah. And the thing

16:21

with that though, that I just

16:23

want to highlight is, he actually

16:25

was threatened. with a fine he

16:27

wasn't actually levied on him exactly

16:29

so so it now is in

16:31

the courts and the judge has

16:34

to decide whether it's valid and

16:36

depending on what judge you get

16:38

in front of you mean the

16:40

judge might say he didn't break

16:42

a law because because that's really

16:44

the issue is you can go

16:46

in and file a civil suit

16:48

against him for five million dollars

16:51

and you can say it was

16:53

damaging you could say it all

16:55

to the light you could say

16:57

all that stuff but for it

16:59

to see the light of day

17:01

You have to point to a

17:03

law that was broken. And I

17:06

don't know any laws that cover

17:08

that. So yes, he was slapped

17:10

with a fine, but I can't

17:12

see this one going. And then

17:14

even if the judge allows it,

17:16

you have to convince a jury

17:18

of your peers. Now, if you

17:21

were sitting on that jury and

17:23

you saw that this individual did

17:25

that. I mean, I could see

17:27

people go either way. Like, it

17:29

depends on who you get on

17:31

the jury. Some people might say

17:33

that was perfectly okay. Others might

17:36

not. So, I mean, there's just,

17:38

right now, yeah, he was threatened

17:40

to find, but whether it actually

17:42

comes to fruition and he pays

17:44

it, it's gonna take three to

17:46

four years, and it's really rolling

17:48

dice in Vegas on which way

17:51

it's gonna go. I need to

17:53

jump in for a second and

17:55

share some details about a special

17:57

group that we've created for you,

17:59

our listeners. We understand the importance

18:01

of creativity in cybersecurity, and Hacker

18:03

Valley has created a special cyber

18:05

creators mastermind. Each month we meet

18:08

and discuss how to break down

18:10

technical concepts through stories, the intricacies

18:12

and opportunities. of using audio and

18:14

video to highlight what's important in

18:16

cybersecurity, and we share how you

18:18

can use content to highlight the

18:20

hard work that you put into

18:23

your craft. You can check out

18:25

the mastermind by visiting hackervally.com/mastermind. We'd

18:27

love to help unlock your creative

18:29

potential and would love to see

18:31

you there. One of the things

18:33

I wanted to speak with you

18:35

about that I don't know too

18:38

much about myself. and this is

18:40

getting a little political but that's

18:42

all right because I feel like

18:44

we're not necessarily giving opinion we're

18:46

more so talking about the information

18:48

that's in front of us is

18:50

cyber warfare I feel like this

18:53

is one of those hot topics

18:55

we hear about it in a

18:57

business perspective but I think it's

18:59

a lot deeper than that especially

19:01

having worked at the NSA as

19:03

a contractor for about four years

19:05

myself I know that some of

19:08

these capabilities that are out there

19:10

We're already significant from a cyber

19:12

perspective, but introducing AI and having

19:14

companies like Google release the restrictions

19:16

of developing weapons with AI is

19:18

interesting. So I'll pose the question,

19:20

what is the state of cyber

19:23

warfare? So the reality is, and

19:25

I don't know why people don't

19:27

like talking about the truth, and

19:29

they don't like facing it or

19:31

addressing it. The reality is, and

19:33

we could go for hours, but

19:35

I'll just give you facts, we

19:37

are in a cyber war. We

19:40

are in World War Three. Whether

19:42

we want to admit it, whether

19:44

we're denying it, what is a

19:46

war? Well, let's just get simple.

19:48

A war is when countries or

19:50

individuals target and attack each other

19:52

trying to course harm. You look

19:55

it up in the dictionary. What

19:57

is a world war? A world

19:59

war is when you have two

20:01

or more countries. that blatantly disagree

20:03

and get to the point where

20:05

they're going to actively take action

20:07

to hurt individuals hurt the country

20:10

or prove their method until the

20:12

other side surrenders and gives it

20:14

to what they want. If you

20:16

look at the internet... and you

20:18

look at what's happening with China

20:20

Russia North Korea it's a war

20:22

I mean that they are actively

20:25

targeting us but most people don't

20:27

realize North Korea we spend all

20:29

this time and energy sanctioning them

20:31

so they can't have nuclear weapons

20:33

because that would be bad like

20:35

if North Korea had ballistic nuclear

20:37

weapons and we saw them trying

20:40

to test weapons and then I'm

20:42

exploding. That was all a smoke

20:44

screen. Because guess what? They have

20:46

cyber nuclear weapons, but most people

20:48

don't realize this. The North Korean

20:50

economy is based off of hacking

20:52

US companies individuals. It's estimated last

20:54

year that North Korea made 2.3

20:57

billion dollars on hacking US citizens.

20:59

Hacking U.S. companies. Most people realize

21:01

a lot of the ransomware attacks

21:03

hitting companies. North Korea. A lot

21:05

of the cyber crime and draining

21:07

people's accounts slowly as all North

21:09

Korea. 2.3 billion, that is the

21:12

revenue of some small countries. I

21:14

mean, that could support North Korea

21:16

for a long time. That is

21:18

warfare, right? We're calling it ransomware,

21:20

we're calling it attacks. No, it

21:22

is warfare. that they are launching

21:24

against the United States, causing harm

21:27

and damage to us. And we

21:29

just are not waking up. I

21:31

mean, the fact that, and I

21:33

hate that I have to do

21:35

this, when I work with most

21:37

companies that are hit with ransomware,

21:39

from a business standpoint, I have

21:42

to put my business head on,

21:44

because these companies need to stay

21:46

in business and make money, from

21:48

a business standpoint, 95% of the

21:50

time. The best business decision, and

21:52

I hate to say it, the

21:54

best business decision, is to pay

21:57

their ransom. Because these are commercialized

21:59

companies. They're very, I hate to

22:01

say this, they're very reliable. I

22:03

mean, Russian business network, which is

22:05

one of the other large ransomware

22:07

providers, they have a help desk

22:09

and they have a money back

22:11

guarantee. If you pay the ransom

22:14

and you don't get your data

22:16

back, they refund your money because

22:18

they want to be reputable. and

22:20

they want to be known that,

22:22

okay, if you pay, you get

22:24

your data, so it's a good

22:26

investment. And most companies, if they

22:29

lose their data, a hospital, unfortunately,

22:31

if they lose their data, they

22:33

have two options. They can pay

22:35

three million, or they can be

22:37

down for two to three weeks,

22:39

not be able to treat patients

22:41

and lose 20 million dollars. So

22:44

from a business standpoint... Which one

22:46

unfortunately makes sense? I'm one that

22:48

I do prefer to work with

22:50

our clients, so they have proper

22:52

infrastructure proactive, so you can recover

22:54

without paying ransom. But if you

22:56

don't involve security professionals until after

22:59

the fact, the unfortunate reality which

23:01

sucks, it's awful, is paying the

23:03

ransom is less on your balance

23:05

sheet than actually fighting it, rebuilding,

23:07

and going from scratch. That's warfare.

23:09

I mean, we are in war,

23:11

and here's the problem. You're in

23:14

a completely different mindset when you're

23:16

in war. You're thinking differently, you're

23:18

acting differently, you're paranoid, you're concerned.

23:20

The problem we have in the

23:22

United States, because nobody will face

23:24

the fact that we're at war,

23:26

companies and individuals and even the

23:28

government, we have peacetime mentality. We're

23:31

acting and behaving like we trust

23:33

people. When links come in and

23:35

people, and people click on it,

23:37

that's peacetime mentality. But the reality

23:39

is, if we knew we were

23:41

at war and we had war

23:43

time mentality and a link came

23:46

in, we wouldn't even think of

23:48

clicking it. I mean, there's no

23:50

way of clicking it. Somebody going

23:52

in in peace time mentality and

23:54

saying, let's take a critical server

23:56

that controls the oil and gas

23:58

pipeline for the East Coast and

24:01

let's connect it to the internet

24:03

because it's easier and simpler. Peace

24:05

time mentality, you do that. War

24:07

time mentality, you would never in

24:09

a million years do that. I

24:11

mean, from 2023 to 2024, the

24:13

amount of cyber crime or cyber

24:16

warfare hurting America doubled. and they're

24:18

predicting it's gonna quadruple in 2025.

24:20

The problem is getting worse, not

24:22

better, but we're still approaching it

24:24

from a peacetime mentality. Hmm. You

24:26

know, I'll be honest, I don't

24:28

have the wartime mentality either. There's

24:31

times where I'm definitely kicking back

24:33

and taking it easy, not reading

24:35

things too closely. I think it

24:37

brings a little bit of sanity

24:39

to our lives. I think in

24:41

back into 2021, 2001, during the...

24:43

September 11th attacks everyone was on

24:45

high alert like they would show

24:48

pictures of people who were Allegedly

24:50

terrorists and I remember my own

24:52

mother going around calling in the

24:54

hotline numbers because she saw she

24:56

saw someone that looked Seemingly like

24:58

this person, but she wasn't sure

25:00

she wasn't sure but she was

25:03

scared and she didn't want the

25:05

same thing to happen again and

25:07

you're totally right when someone is

25:09

hit by ransomware they don't feel

25:11

that to their core like September

25:13

11th, 2001 brought us. It's a

25:15

different feeling. It's more of like,

25:18

oh, who's the dummy? All right,

25:20

you made the company lose 35

25:22

million out of our billions of

25:24

dollars of revenue. 9-11 impacted everyone.

25:26

Everyone in this country felt like,

25:28

okay, that could have been me

25:30

on an airplane. Exactly. It touched

25:33

every one of us and we

25:35

felt the real threat that it

25:37

could happen. The problem now is

25:39

we're not socializing this enough. Like

25:41

the fact that people are losing

25:43

money out of their bank account.

25:45

ransomware, we're not on social isolation,

25:48

people don't feel that it could

25:50

impact them like it did 9-11.

25:52

We're not getting that same impact,

25:54

but the reality is, and I'm

25:56

not trying to downplay in any

25:58

way, shape or form, but if

26:00

you look at the cyber crime,

26:03

the cyber war, the amount of

26:05

loss of lives, and the amount

26:07

of monetary damage was greater than

26:09

what we lost in 9-11. and

26:11

I'm not trying to downplay in

26:13

any way shape or form but

26:15

the impact is larger but because

26:17

it's slower and it's spread out

26:20

9-11 happened on a single day

26:22

within two hours high impact imagine

26:24

taking the loss of life and

26:26

the damage of 9-11 but spreading

26:28

it out over 12 months you're

26:30

numb to it you don't feel

26:32

it as much you don't feel

26:35

that impact as great when it's

26:37

done over a longer period of

26:39

time but the same thing is

26:41

happening again we're just not waking

26:43

up and realizing it. And like

26:45

the simple example I give to

26:47

friends and family members is why

26:50

in the world are you posting

26:52

pictures of your children on public

26:54

social media where any creep criminal

26:56

can see it, target them, and

26:58

go after them. We say we

27:00

care about our children and we

27:02

love our children. Why in the

27:05

world are our social media sites

27:07

not private? Why are we only

27:09

sharing that with a few? I

27:11

mean, posting pictures of your child's

27:13

life for 12 years? Think of

27:15

the impact that has, but we're

27:17

just not thinking wartime mentality. So

27:20

we're thinking it's perfectly okay to

27:22

make our children and our family's

27:24

life totally public, and it's insane

27:26

the long-term damage that could have.

27:28

Oh, you know, I have mixed

27:30

feelings about this because I totally

27:32

understand and appreciate the perspective of

27:34

you gotta be careful, especially you

27:37

never really understand what you're consenting

27:39

to. I was just speaking to

27:41

someone recently about all of the

27:43

face. recognition at the airport. I

27:45

was like, how does this work?

27:47

And they were saying it's a

27:49

zero-proof piece of information. You send

27:52

information to a centralized server, it

27:54

gives you back information, saying that,

27:56

yes, this is Ron, or maybe

27:58

you want to ask this person,

28:00

take their glasses off, and take

28:02

a closer look at them. And

28:04

I was like, oh, wow, OK.

28:07

I was like, I never agreed

28:09

to that. And they're like, yeah,

28:11

you did. All of the airline

28:13

terms of service, terms of service,

28:15

you agreed to that. And I

28:17

think it's the same thing with

28:19

our kids. Like we want to

28:22

make sure our family is able

28:24

to see them because maybe the

28:26

extended family, they don't really have

28:28

their numbers. They might live in

28:30

a different city, state, or country.

28:32

And it's like, I want my

28:34

family to see my my family

28:37

as well. But when you boil

28:39

it down, you never know how

28:41

someone's using that information, whether you

28:43

agreed to it, especially if you

28:45

agreed to it or not. I

28:47

don't know about you, but I

28:49

have about 15 people in my

28:51

family, and I maybe have about

28:54

40 friends. Now, let's say I'm

28:56

a little weird, so call it

28:58

100. You have a big family,

29:00

100 people. Why don't you set

29:02

up a private account and share

29:04

it with 100 people? Why are

29:06

you letting millions upon millions of

29:09

total strangers? and he and the

29:11

world see that. It's like, so

29:13

I'm not telling you, this is

29:15

where I'm different than most folks,

29:17

I'm not saying go Amish, trust

29:19

me. There's days, my friend Ron,

29:21

you were asking me like how

29:24

my day was going. There are

29:26

some days where I sit in

29:28

my car and I seriously contemplate

29:30

driving to Pennsylvania buying a farm

29:32

of being Amish, because guess what?

29:34

I mean, think about how beautiful

29:36

it would be at night. to

29:39

sit with a candle in a

29:41

book and not have your cell

29:43

phone not have texting not have

29:45

social media maybe I'm crazy but

29:47

I'm like that sounds like an

29:49

amazing life now I'm sure after

29:51

a while I get bored because

29:54

I miss helping people so I

29:56

wouldn't do that but the point

29:58

is I'm not I'm not saying

30:00

go Amish, but I'm saying there's

30:02

a middle ground. There's a balance

30:04

that we're missing here. We don't

30:06

have to go to the extreme

30:08

where we post every detail of

30:11

our life publicly for everybody to

30:13

see. There's a balance. Limit what

30:15

you post, limit who sees it,

30:17

limit what goes out there, and

30:19

we've just lost that balance and

30:21

we're just so one-sided. You know,

30:23

I... I agree that you should

30:26

definitely limit, especially when it comes

30:28

to your kids, you definitely want

30:30

to limit their exposure to being

30:32

online, whether it's their face being

30:34

online or them being online, because

30:36

the advertisement is ridiculous. I'm on

30:38

Instagram. I'll probably go on Instagram

30:41

later and it will show me

30:43

your book. But hey, you used

30:45

to now buy Dr. Eric Cole's

30:47

book and also become a customer

30:49

of his company. And it's interesting

30:51

to see all of the advertisement.

30:53

reasons why the United States government

30:56

is so on edge about TikTok

30:58

is because we don't have control

31:00

over it. They could insert advertisement,

31:02

messaging, and ultimately program the minds

31:04

of the adults, but especially the

31:06

youth as well. So can Facebook,

31:08

so can Twitter, so okay, and

31:11

I'm just throwing it out there.

31:13

Yeah. So we're concerned about the

31:15

Chinese influencing us. But

31:17

we're okay with Elon Musk

31:19

or Mark Zuckerberg influencing us

31:21

and biasing us. And once

31:23

again, this is factual. I'm

31:26

not, I mean, I always

31:28

be careful is we need

31:30

to be able to talk

31:32

about politics in a non-political

31:35

way, but this is factual

31:37

in October of 2024. So

31:39

a month before the election.

31:41

If you went into Facebook.

31:43

And you put a post

31:46

that said, Donald Trump is

31:48

the best president we've ever

31:50

had and he will make

31:52

this country great again. You

31:54

got flagged in Facebook. That

31:57

post was not allowed. Zuckerberg

31:59

admitted to it. I did

32:01

the test, but he admits

32:03

to it now. But if you change

32:06

two words, two words, you change

32:08

Donald Trump to Kamala Harris,

32:10

and you said Kamala Harris

32:12

is the best president, she

32:14

will make this country great again.

32:17

It was allowed. So these platforms

32:19

in the US are biasing

32:21

us. Oh yeah. Is that okay? No, but

32:23

so it's not the Chinese. I mean, to

32:25

me, the solution is not banning

32:27

a country. But regulating, where's the

32:30

regulation around TikTok, Facebook, and all

32:32

these others? Because they're influencing us,

32:34

they're influencing our kids. But it's

32:37

so addicting to be online. And

32:39

I think that one of the

32:41

addictions that I currently suffer from

32:44

is artificial intelligence using LLM after

32:46

LLM, trying to solve problems that an

32:48

LLM probably doesn't necessarily need to solve,

32:50

but it'd be really cool if it

32:52

solved it without knowing all the steps

32:54

of the solution. And it kind of

32:57

was able to figure out where to

32:59

go from here, you know, how are

33:01

you looking at AI today, like, especially

33:03

considering your background, and are you

33:05

seeing it apply in any special

33:08

or detriment ways for you in

33:10

your life? So I basically spend

33:13

an hour or two a night brainstorming

33:15

with my digital twin. So I

33:17

loaded in and created a digital twin

33:20

that thinks and acts like me. And

33:22

now I go in and I ask

33:24

a question, I go listen. I know

33:26

in the past I've hired some bad

33:28

marketing firms and I need

33:31

a marketing firm now that does

33:33

this this and this but I don't

33:35

want to make that same mistake.

33:37

Can you tell me what were the

33:39

three reasons why I hired bad firms

33:41

in the past and what I can

33:43

do to avoid that from happening

33:45

in the future? And it comes

33:47

back and it tells me. And then

33:49

it says, would you like us to

33:51

create a 30 day plan to interview?

33:54

higher and buy a marketing from that

33:56

will actually help you when I go yes, and

33:58

it basically produces an action plan,

34:00

a massive action plan, and all I

34:02

do is follow the steps now. So

34:05

it's like, it's crazy where we're doing

34:07

it now. I'm keeping that to myself,

34:09

and it is controlled by Eric. So

34:11

it's an augmentation to me. It's not

34:14

a replacement. Right. If we use it

34:16

as an augmentation tool, and it maintains

34:18

our identity, I think AI could be

34:20

super powerful. But if it gets to

34:23

the point now where you're losing the

34:25

identity of people. and it's now just

34:27

putting an engine and now it's not

34:29

Eric Cole that I'm asking for help

34:32

it's open AI. It's not it's not

34:34

Elon Musk I'm asking for help I'm

34:36

asking for grog three it's basically making

34:38

humans obsolete which scares and terrifies me.

34:41

All right P stack overflow I mean

34:43

there's so many talented developers out there

34:45

that offer so much help guidance and

34:47

wisdom that I used to think and

34:50

you know like and uphold their stuff

34:52

they would get that adrenaline hit or

34:54

that dopamine rush. But now, it's all

34:57

sent to open AI. I use tools

34:59

like cursor and get help co-pilot to

35:01

now do all of my programming for

35:03

me, but it's really on the heels

35:06

and on the backs of someone's blood,

35:08

sweat, and tears. So big shout out

35:10

to them and thank you to everybody

35:12

that Stack Overflow contributor. But Eric, I

35:15

did want to ask you a very

35:17

important question. You know, you have such

35:19

an eclectic range of skills. there's a

35:21

lot of people that are that watch

35:24

and listen to this show and they

35:26

are always curious about like how do

35:28

I become a little bit more like

35:30

this person how could I you know

35:33

write books get paid for speaking engagements

35:35

have the have so much information I

35:37

need a marketing agency to help dispense

35:39

it in an effective way you know

35:42

if you were to start your career

35:44

over from day one will be the

35:46

first will be your first move my

35:48

first move would be to invest a

35:51

lot more in personal development, emotional intelligence,

35:53

communication because because what hurt me in

35:55

my career is I was the brilliant

35:57

geek. I mean, that's what I was

36:00

labeled as. I mean, that's what I

36:02

was known as in school. You know,

36:04

I mean, the geeky guy. I mean,

36:06

if you want to solve any problem,

36:09

go to Eric, math and science was

36:11

my thing. You give me a computer

36:13

and I'm in my happy place. I'd

36:15

rather, you know, I mean, program and

36:18

write code than go out to parties.

36:20

Like, like people go, what do you

36:22

do you do for fun? new software

36:24

companies or I program, they're like, no,

36:27

Eric, what do you do for fun?

36:29

I'm like, that's fun. So I didn't

36:31

really have a lot of social skills.

36:33

So I would come into meetings and

36:36

I didn't realize people don't think like

36:38

me. People don't act like me and

36:40

I would go in and I would

36:42

be like, well, of course this is

36:45

obvious. Like, what are you stupid? You

36:47

don't understand these things? And like, I

36:49

hurt my career because I was known

36:51

as the brilliant, that couldn't talk in

36:54

social settings. So I would step back

36:56

and spend a lot more time, which

36:58

I've done in my last 10 years,

37:00

and sort of has changed my life,

37:03

is focus a lot more on how

37:05

can I be a better human? How

37:07

can I have better friends? How can

37:10

I communicate better? How can I sort

37:12

of win friends and influence people and

37:14

really communicate and socialize? Because here's the

37:16

reality. If you can get along with

37:19

people, if you can read other people,

37:21

And you can think and switch instead

37:23

of me going into a conversation going,

37:25

what do I want? And how am

37:28

I thinking? What if I went to

37:30

the conversation going, how is Ron thinking?

37:32

Like, what is Ron doing? What is

37:34

Ron feeling right now? And to me,

37:37

one of the things like when I'm

37:39

in any business situation or any conversations,

37:41

and we sort of did this a

37:43

little in the call, you did it

37:46

very well. You did it very well.

37:48

Eric, how you feeling today? Like, like,

37:50

where are you at? What sort of

37:52

your tone and message? And if we

37:55

just did that where we went into

37:57

meetings, and I just said, hey, I'm

37:59

having a tough day, you know, when

38:01

I got. some not so favorable news,

38:04

I'm a little angry, I'm a little

38:06

frustrated, you would probably have a little

38:08

more compassion and approach it differently than

38:10

if I'm like, oh, I'm in a

38:13

super happy mood, I'm in a pump

38:15

mood, I'm ready to go crazy and

38:17

stuff, or even the same thing. If

38:19

me and you are business partners and

38:22

you want to give me a new

38:24

business idea to grow and expand the

38:26

company, and you come to me on

38:28

a day where I'm like, we lost

38:31

too much money, I'm in scarcity, I'm

38:33

afraid the company's gone to business, I'm

38:35

going to shut you down so quick,

38:37

and you're going to be like, what's

38:40

wrong with him? But then three days

38:42

later, we just won three big contracts,

38:44

we just got an award, our customers

38:46

love us, and I'm ready to run

38:49

through walls and go crazy, and you

38:51

now come to me with that idea,

38:53

I'm a big fan of everything is

38:55

meant to happen. You just have to

38:58

time it correctly. And only by understanding

39:00

and connecting with humans and having compassion

39:02

and emotional intelligence to understand where they're

39:04

at, it would solve so many problems.

39:07

If I went in and I only

39:09

focused on money and I forced the

39:11

deal and I forced the deal, they

39:13

would be very unhappy. They would be

39:16

like, okay, secure anchor does okay services,

39:18

but they're not that good and they

39:20

wouldn't call us again. But if I

39:23

go in and I wait for the

39:25

right timing, they weren't ready to buy

39:27

today. So I'm not forcing it. They

39:29

needed consultation, so I gave it to

39:32

them for free. And they walk out

39:34

of that meeting going, Eric changed my

39:36

life. Eric gave me information that's probably

39:38

worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, and

39:41

he didn't charge me a penny. Imagine

39:43

what he would give me if I

39:45

paid him $100K. And now guess what?

39:47

It always happens. A week, a month,

39:50

a quarter later. They always call me

39:52

for the business and now their customers

39:54

for life. So I'm not rushing the

39:56

sale. I know the sale will happen,

39:59

but instead of forcing a bad deal...

40:01

and getting a frustrated customer, I give

40:03

them what they need, I give them

40:05

what they want, and I close the

40:08

deal in three or four months, and

40:10

now I have their business for the

40:12

next 10 years. Powerful. I love that.

40:14

There's two quotes that come to mind

40:17

through all of this, you know, the

40:19

quality of your questions, and the other

40:21

one is diagnosis without assessment, is malpractice.

40:23

You gotta understand where someone's at. Whenever

40:26

I call someone, I always try to

40:28

ask, is this a good time to

40:30

chat? Just giving them that space is

40:32

going to allow for a much more

40:35

productive conversation. I love that. The best

40:37

way to get what you want is

40:39

to give other people what they want.

40:41

Damn. That's what I'm talking about. Yes.

40:44

If there was anything that you learn

40:46

from this entire conversation, it is that.

40:48

I really had a good time chatting.

40:50

Eric. I hope that I'm wishing you

40:53

the best on this journey of... understanding

40:55

how we can protect oneself better and

40:57

also companies out there, the American people

40:59

and people at large better and also

41:02

the growth and self-development journey that you're

41:04

on. I'm definitely curious about this AI

41:06

bot. Before anyone that wants to stay

41:08

up to date with Dr. Eric Cole,

41:11

be sure to check out the show

41:13

notes or description wherever you're listening or

41:15

watching. Eric has a host of books

41:17

that I'll drop the links in to

41:20

the show notes for everyone to check

41:22

out and hopefully purchase a few copies

41:24

and want to say thank you again

41:26

Eric and with that we will see

41:29

everyone next time.