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4:25

show them a different way. We got

4:28

to do it a different way.

4:30

fighting for what you believe in,

4:32

and all the highs and the

4:34

lows that come with it. And

4:36

that's precisely why I wanted to

4:38

talk to Reshma Saajani. She founded

4:40

not one, but two incredible non-profits

4:42

that helped close the gender gap

4:44

for women. First, with girls who

4:46

code. And now, with moms first.

4:48

She's lived the pressures of building

4:51

a business both behind the scenes

4:53

and in the spotlight, and her

4:55

candid take on leading a movement.

4:57

It's going to make you rethink

4:59

how to fight for what

5:01

you believe in. Let's get

5:04

into it. Welcome. Thank you.

5:06

I'm so happy you're

5:08

here. It's been a while. It's

5:10

been a long time. I

5:12

saw you. Different circumstances.

5:14

Long time. Yes, life

5:16

was different. Well, I

5:18

mean, we had met 2018,

5:21

I guess. You were very

5:23

pregnant. Oh my gosh, yes, it

5:25

would have been 2018 pregnant

5:28

with Archie at Kensington Palace.

5:30

Yes. How did you end up at

5:32

that meeting with me? Because

5:35

you're an amazing human. It's

5:37

true. And we were bringing

5:39

girls who co to England

5:41

and we were looking to

5:43

expand and you generously met

5:45

with me. Oh, that's kind to say

5:47

generous. I was thrilled to learn more

5:49

at the time. I would say, even

5:51

the idea of coding and stem. Do

5:53

you remember that's when things were transitioning

5:55

from stem to steam? Yep, yep. It

5:57

was so new and it was definitely...

5:59

knew for me, but I remember you

6:02

came in, we sat in the audience

6:04

room, and I just said, tell me

6:06

all about it. But it was such

6:08

a great sit down because it was

6:10

an eye opener for me of so

6:12

many other ways in which women were

6:15

showing up for young girls. And I'm

6:17

curious to get into how that became

6:19

your focal point. But can we just

6:22

start well before that? Can we go

6:24

way, way back? Take us back to

6:26

the beginning. So, you know, for

6:28

me, my parents came here

6:31

as refugees. My mother was

6:33

actually several months

6:36

pregnant with my sister

6:38

when they came. They had

6:40

no money. And the Catholic

6:42

Church took them, fed them,

6:44

sheltered them, clothed them. So

6:46

I've always had this like

6:49

deep, like love for this

6:51

country and for that spirit,

6:54

right of empathy. that we shelter

6:56

and that we love and then

6:58

we care for those who have

7:00

been displaced. So that it was

7:02

always in my blood that I

7:04

wanted to give back to the

7:06

country, I wanted to do public

7:09

service, and I wanted to, you

7:11

know, fight for those who didn't

7:13

have a voice. Which is beautiful

7:15

and also completely confounding when you know

7:17

more about your upbringing, how you

7:19

were bullied, how you were mistreated,

7:21

how you were beaten up, how

7:24

you were beaten up. For a lot

7:26

of people, that would devolve into, no,

7:28

no, I'm not showing up in the

7:30

spirit of love anymore. I've been too

7:32

bruised and beaten. So can you talk

7:34

a little bit about that? Because you

7:36

grew up in Chicago and what was

7:39

it like? You know, no one's ever asked

7:41

me that before, because you're

7:43

right. I could have turned to anger and

7:45

hate, given what I was going through

7:47

and I went the opposite way. You know,

7:49

my parents came here in the 70s. grew

7:51

up in like a work-class town, you know,

7:53

outside of Chicago, Illinois. There were no brown

7:55

people. And, you know, my mom was still

7:58

wearing her sorry and her been the... on

8:00

her head, going to the Kmart, right?

8:02

Still eating Indian food. And, you know,

8:04

back then it was all about assimilation.

8:06

You know, my father went to

8:09

Toastmasters to get rid of his

8:11

accent. Like, he literally changed his

8:13

name from Mookoon to Mike. He

8:15

still signs my birthday cards, like,

8:18

love Mike. But back then, it's

8:20

like, if you wanted to fit

8:22

in, you had to just change. Like,

8:24

you know what I mean. And that's kind

8:26

of how. we felt too, right? I remember

8:29

being so mad back in that like my

8:31

mom named me Reishma. I'm like, why didn't

8:33

you just name me Rita or Rachel because

8:35

everyone would be like, how do I say

8:38

it? And you know, we'd have a lot

8:40

of money. So we were wearing the Kmart

8:42

shoes and the wrong jeans and like the

8:44

wrong shirt and members all like. you know,

8:47

forensic sweatshirts and like feathers and

8:49

like, you know, the 90s like.

8:51

Oh, the sparkly BB shirt that

8:53

said BB and sequence across the

8:55

front. I saved up for that.

8:57

Yes, totally. We had none of

8:59

it. We like the knockoff version.

9:01

You know, I mean, of all

9:03

of that. But so I really tried

9:05

to be white. Like I tried to be

9:08

those other girls and deny my culture

9:10

and all of it. you know every

9:12

day I would get made fun of

9:14

and bullied and one day I don't

9:16

know there was nothing special about that

9:19

day Megan I just went challenged

9:21

to go to the to the back of

9:23

the school you know for a fight I

9:25

was I was like okay instead of

9:27

just getting on the bus wow and

9:29

that day changed my life right because

9:31

I got beat up pretty bad but

9:34

I also realized I'm not white

9:36

and I'm never going to be and

9:38

I have a responsibility to

9:40

actually teach people about difference.

9:42

Like literally I went to freshman year

9:44

of high school and started a club

9:47

called prism, like the prejudice reduction interested

9:49

students movement, horrible name. I got better

9:51

at that. It's quite the acronym, it

9:53

really, but it's definitely high impact for

9:56

a 12 or 13 year old girl

9:58

to come up with that. It says

10:00

a lot. Yeah, it does. So

10:02

yeah, I think I turned to

10:05

hope. I turned to hope. I

10:07

mean, honestly, it just says so

10:09

much about your character, to look

10:11

yourself in the mirror and really

10:13

see who you are. But even

10:15

from that moment, you're still at

10:17

a crossroads where you could have

10:20

chosen, you know what? I am

10:22

going to be an entrepreneur and

10:24

I'm going to build a business

10:26

and I'm going to be so

10:28

successful. But instead, your activist spirit

10:30

is what came through. always wanting

10:33

to affect change. Yeah, I realized

10:35

early on what my gift was.

10:37

So I started going to model

10:39

UN and debate and I realized,

10:41

ooh, I can give speech. Like

10:43

I can communicate and I actually

10:45

feel at home on stage. And

10:48

I'm thinking the way to make

10:50

a difference is to run for

10:52

office. I'm in love with Dr.

10:54

King, Haffa Gandhi, John F. Kennedy,

10:56

like back then I thought politics,

10:58

politics and you know how to

11:01

communicate like. That's where you go.

11:03

And so I volunteer on my

11:05

first campaign, the 92 Clinton campaign,

11:07

fall in love with politics in

11:09

Washington and Hillary Clinton and the

11:11

whole thing. And I'm looking at

11:13

all these people like Hillary, like

11:16

Hillary, like, you know, and they

11:18

all got a degree from Harvard,

11:20

and they're all lawyers, and so

11:22

maybe that's my path, right? I'm

11:24

going to Yale Law School. That's

11:26

where I'm going. I apply three

11:29

times, don't get in. You know,

11:31

I mean, finally get in. But

11:33

not just finally get in. Didn't

11:35

you make a plea to the

11:37

dean? Didn't you just really go

11:39

in? And what did you say?

11:41

Well, so I had this mentor

11:44

Leon Higginbotham Jr. He was like

11:46

the first federal black jurist on

11:48

the Third Circuit Court. And he

11:50

becomes my mentor every Sunday. I

11:52

am at him and Evelyn's house

11:54

listening to like the heroes of

11:56

the civil rights movement. And it

11:59

is just. I love Leon and

12:01

Leon's like oh girl you're getting

12:03

in like when you go to

12:05

your law school when you walk

12:07

in there's my photo like I

12:09

got you And he dies, and

12:12

he doesn't write my recommendation letter.

12:14

Oh, I didn't, okay. Before he

12:16

dies. Okay. So I'm devastated, and

12:18

I don't have a romantic ratio.

12:20

And it's like, it's his funeral.

12:22

Everybody is there. And at the

12:24

funeral, I meet the assistant of

12:27

the dean of Yale Law School.

12:29

And kind of like, she feels

12:31

sorry for me. And she was

12:33

like, I'll get an appointment for

12:35

you. And she kind of squeezes

12:37

me and Dean Kramman's schedule. And

12:40

I go to New Haven and

12:42

make my pitch. And Dean Kramman's

12:44

like, listen, I'll make you a

12:46

deal. Like you've gotten into all

12:48

these other schools. Like I got

12:50

into Penn and Northwest. I mean,

12:52

like, right, like really good schools.

12:55

And he's like, I'll make you

12:57

a deal. Like just go at

12:59

any of those schools. And if

13:01

you get into the top 10%

13:03

I'll let you come to you.

13:05

I study every single day. I

13:08

am just super focused, right? Like

13:10

getting straight days so I can

13:12

go to Yale. But it was

13:14

such a lesson I get in

13:16

like, I was just so narrowly

13:18

focused that I had to have

13:20

that Yale law degree so I

13:23

could go do the things that

13:25

I wanted to do, not understanding

13:27

that I was just letting life

13:29

in its experiences just pass me

13:31

by. What happens then is that?

13:33

Bush regore happens, and I'm thinking

13:36

I'm going into public interest, right?

13:38

I'm going to go work at

13:40

the Nelliby CP, right? Like civil

13:42

rights, that's what I want to

13:44

do. Bush wins, no one's going

13:46

to DC, you know, and I'm

13:48

like, oh, and I'm $300,000 in

13:51

student loan debt, I guess I'm

13:53

going to go work for the

13:55

man in New York at a

13:57

law firm. Which I hate. And

13:59

that's when I run for office.

14:01

Take this crazy chance right in

14:04

running in a primary. I was

14:06

33 years old. My name was

14:08

race Miss Adjani There had never

14:10

been a South Asian woman to

14:12

ever run before I run for

14:14

United States Congress, I lose like

14:16

spectacularly. I mean it's like not

14:19

even close, but I had like

14:21

convinced John Legend to do like

14:23

two concerts for me, like Jostorci,

14:25

like I had like hustled the

14:27

whole world right into thinking that

14:29

like I'm winning this upstart race

14:32

and it is not even close.

14:34

Like I'm crushed. And the biggest

14:36

kind of aha for me was

14:38

I'm sitting there the next day.

14:40

I'm in my like 400 square

14:42

foot lower east side apartment. I've

14:44

pissed off everybody in the Democratic

14:47

establishment because I didn't wake my

14:49

turn. I ran against another Democrat.

14:51

I'm broke because I spent a

14:53

year running for office instead of

14:55

working and no one's calling me.

14:57

Oh no. No one's calling me.

15:00

But the biggest kind of I

15:02

think moment that changes my life

15:04

is I realized like, oh my

15:06

God, like this was the thing

15:08

that I thought that I was

15:10

supposed to do. run for office,

15:12

be a politician, be a public

15:15

servant. The very thing that I

15:17

had been driving towards, Yale, all

15:19

of that was about this destination.

15:21

It doesn't happen for me. But

15:23

when I wake up the next

15:25

morning, I'm like, oh, like, I'm

15:28

not broken. I think we think

15:30

as women. that when we try

15:32

something, especially something we want so

15:34

bad, and it doesn't work out

15:36

that it will break us and

15:38

we won't be able to like

15:40

wake up the next day, we

15:43

won't be able to continue on.

15:45

Forget about like the humiliation and

15:47

the judgment and all that. I

15:49

think there's a sense that like

15:51

failure will cripple you. Right, that

15:53

it will break you as opposed

15:55

to break you open for the

15:58

possibility of more. Exactly. And so

16:00

now the thing doesn't happen and

16:02

I'm like, huh, there's a lot

16:04

of things that I should maybe

16:06

fail at and try and learn.

16:08

and that's the path. Yeah and

16:11

when it breaks open it leaves

16:13

space and room for so much

16:15

more love growth resilience to all

16:17

pour in. Yeah. On this podcast

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16:21

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16:30

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16:32

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16:34

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18:27

Why STEM? What made you realize how

18:29

big of a deal it was? I

18:31

mean, I always say, like, if I

18:33

had applied to be the CEO

18:35

of Girls Who Code, I wouldn't

18:38

have gotten the job. I didn't

18:40

code. I'd never coded before. Right?

18:42

Like, I majored in polyscience speech

18:44

communications. And the only thing I'd

18:46

ever built was a failed campaign.

18:48

And you don't really think of

18:50

coding as the person who's on

18:52

the keyboard. And, you know, those

18:55

coding jobs, they paid a lot,

18:57

like $120,000 a year. And when

18:59

I saw that girls and girls

19:01

of color, poor girls, were not

19:03

going into these fields, in my

19:05

mind, like they weren't going into

19:07

the fields that would help them,

19:09

like, march up into the middle

19:12

class and change their entire trajectory

19:14

for them and their families. And

19:16

that's what, like, drove me to

19:18

coding and technology. Well, and the creation

19:20

for access in such a different way,

19:23

right, for that next step that they

19:25

may have otherwise not even had a

19:27

window to peer in through to know that

19:29

that was a room that was worth going

19:31

into. Yeah, and you're working on this now,

19:33

also like the things that they're going to

19:35

create, like bullying, right? Like, what are they

19:38

doing? on these problems that they experience,

19:40

right? Whether it's bullying, whether it's health,

19:42

whether it's sexual harassment, right? Like they're,

19:44

if they know how to code, they

19:46

can build tools that are going to

19:48

help solve problems that are faced by

19:50

women and girls. Completely. And now as

19:52

we look at all the different modal

19:55

and AI and everything else to really

19:57

get ahead of how they can be

19:59

in a. in the creation of those

20:01

next phases of tech. So, but what

20:03

was the big break with girls

20:05

who code? When did people start paying

20:08

attention and you went, oh, I'm actually

20:10

on to something here? So, okay.

20:12

I thought nonprofits are slow. They don't

20:14

get anything done. Like, nothing happens. Like,

20:17

it's just, it's not for me.

20:19

Right? Like, I want to be where

20:21

the action is. I want to

20:23

be where the real change is. So

20:25

I ran girls who code and now

20:28

mom's first, like a tech company.

20:30

big numbers, hard driving, big change, KPIs,

20:32

destination where we want to go with

20:34

like essentially like a non-profit lens.

20:36

So it was always kind of like

20:39

unicorns and rainbows, I'll be honest, right?

20:41

Like sometimes you have an idea

20:43

and the world just collides to make

20:45

that happen. And so Girls Who Code

20:48

was a little like that, right?

20:50

From the beginning. People like, oh yeah,

20:52

this needs to exist. But we

20:54

all also know that fundraising for non-profits

20:56

can be really hard. I mean, maybe

20:59

not as hard with unicorns and

21:01

rainbows there, but it can be hard.

21:03

What do you think one tip is

21:05

for people who are starting specifically

21:08

a non-profit, how do you get funders?

21:10

So here's the thing. I very early

21:12

on at Girls Who Code got

21:14

Jack Dorsey to support it. And back

21:17

then, everybody was like, oh, Jack's doing

21:19

it, great. And I'll say with

21:21

moms first. It was you. paid leave,

21:23

this movement, moms, yes. And I

21:25

think the thing is for people and

21:28

entrepreneurs, it does help to get an

21:30

early adopter, especially one that people

21:32

admire, right, and that people want to

21:34

follow and see as like a guidepost.

21:37

And so, yeah, for girls who

21:39

code, it was really Jack. And, you

21:41

know, for moms first, it was you

21:43

and Melinda. Oh, wow. I didn't

21:45

realize that. That's so, I'm glad that

21:48

I could be additive in any way.

21:50

Maybe not even advice, but insight.

21:52

was when you're looking at funding for

21:54

a nonprofit or even in business

21:56

building, but specifically in the nonprofit sector,

21:59

yes, you wanna get one hook, because

22:01

it makes other people feel competent

22:03

coming in, but in those conversations, if

22:05

you go to someone and you ask

22:08

for money, they're likely gonna give

22:10

you advice. And if you go to

22:12

someone and you ask for advice, they're

22:14

much more likely to give you

22:16

money. That's a good tip. All right,

22:19

I'm taking that one to the bank.

22:21

Just go for advice. Because otherwise

22:23

people aren't immediately feeling pressurized. You're just

22:25

going for advice. And then if

22:27

it makes sense for them, they'll offer

22:30

up what they think you might need

22:32

as opposed to going in with

22:34

an ask. So different. Small distinction, but

22:36

it makes a big difference, I think.

22:39

I really like that. You have

22:41

this quote that I love. It was,

22:43

leaders cannot or should not stay in

22:45

organizations forever. Yes. You can't stay

22:47

innovative if you have the same person

22:50

leading the movement forever. Such an interesting

22:52

insight because a lot of people

22:54

I think in that same pursuit of

22:56

success as we're talking about especially

22:58

as female founders stepping away could feel

23:01

like failure as opposed to the choice

23:03

the active choice you make to

23:05

say no I'm not just doing this

23:07

for myself I'm doing this for this

23:10

organization so you know I know

23:12

it was time step away from girls

23:14

who code one because I don't I

23:16

actually don't think anyone should run

23:18

anything for more than eight years and

23:21

then two this energy I was feeling

23:23

around motherhood and mom's first and

23:25

this need to fight for child care

23:27

and pay leave like there was

23:29

something I knew that I wanted to

23:32

do. So I had this amazing CEO

23:34

who's now our CEO, Dr. Tureka

23:36

Barrett, and I'd always wanted her to

23:38

run the organization. And so it's like

23:41

middle of CO, I know it's

23:43

time, and one I know if I

23:45

tell anybody that I want to step

23:47

down, including my husband, he's going

23:49

to talk me out of it. So

23:52

I don't tell anybody. I got on

23:54

a train. I'm ready and I

23:56

think you're ready. And she said, all

23:58

right, let's go. So one, I

24:01

think it was so important for me

24:03

to pick a successor. especially a woman

24:05

of color, and give her the

24:07

opportunity of like the fruits of my

24:10

labor, right? Because Building Girls of Code

24:12

almost killed me, Megan, you know,

24:14

it was always on a plane, I

24:16

was always just hustling, but I had

24:19

built something that I knew was

24:21

sustainable because I had rebuilt it during

24:23

the pandemic. I had money in the

24:25

bank, right? So like oftentimes if

24:27

you're a new CEO taking over an

24:30

organization, you're terrified, like fundraising his

24:32

heart, so I knew I could give

24:34

her something. that like headlags. Mm-hmm. But

24:36

it was such an interesting lesson

24:38

because the day we were transitioning, my

24:41

assistant said to me, okay, I'm going

24:43

to get you a conference room

24:45

and you're going to get so many

24:47

emails, so many people are going to

24:50

call you that we just, we

24:52

got to block out three hours. So

24:54

we, Teresa, can I send the email,

24:56

she's in one room, I'm in

24:58

one room, press send, crickets. It's been

25:01

so amazing, the amount of emails

25:03

and the phone calls, and she's like,

25:05

how's it been for you? And I

25:07

didn't want to tell her, right,

25:09

that no one had called me. But

25:12

it was such an important lesson on

25:14

like, this is why people don't

25:16

give up power, because when you don't

25:18

have power, you're not important anymore. Right?

25:21

So it's so easy to hold

25:23

on to it, because your identity is

25:25

so caught up in it. But that

25:27

to me was part of the

25:29

work. Right? From an ego perspective, being

25:32

able to let it go, give

25:34

somebody else that light, knowing that like

25:36

it was going to actually diminish my

25:38

power, right? My resources, my access.

25:40

But that was the point. Hmm. I

25:43

mean, that is a lot of, I'm

25:45

not going to say work. I'm

25:47

talking about self-work. That is a lot

25:49

of growth that takes people. tremendous amount

25:52

of time to settle into the

25:54

confidence to be able to do that

25:56

and to not feel rattled when the

25:58

phone's not ringing, to not feel

26:00

rattled. when you've stepped out of the

26:03

light, so to speak, but as

26:05

you step out of the light, you're

26:07

actually stepping into your own light in

26:09

a different way and creating space

26:11

for someone else to be in the

26:14

light, which is probably the larger purpose

26:16

of all of us being here.

26:18

That's so beautiful, so true. And I'll

26:20

bring this up if you're comfortable talking

26:23

about it, because I know you've

26:25

spoken publicly about, as you're... doing girls

26:27

who code all the interpersonal things that

26:29

are happening for you at that

26:31

time and the miscarriages that you've experienced

26:34

I've spoken about the miscarriage that

26:36

we experienced. Yeah. And I think in

26:38

some parallel way when you have to

26:40

learn to detach from the thing

26:42

that you have so much promise and

26:45

hope for and to be able to

26:47

be okay at a certain point

26:49

to let something go that you plan

26:52

to love for a long time. That's,

26:54

does that, that's really, yeah, I

26:56

was gonna say, I feel like you're

26:58

like reading my diaries, like that's really

27:01

insightful, it's really insightful because I

27:03

don't think anyone's seen it that way,

27:05

like said it that way for

27:07

me, but that's right, because you know,

27:09

here I was for so many years

27:12

like trying to get pregnant, having

27:14

miscarriages because I had autoimmune issues, and

27:16

I got into this really like... Kind

27:19

of scary habit where I would

27:21

be at a doctor's office and

27:23

they'd be like you have no

27:25

heartbeat and I should have just

27:27

gone home and gone to sleep

27:29

and curled up with my husband

27:31

But I would just take a

27:33

breath and I would just show

27:35

up in a living room in

27:37

a stage and just perform And

27:39

oftentimes I was like performing in

27:41

front of these children that I

27:43

desperately wanted and I just got

27:45

really good at that, but it

27:47

was eating me up inside and

27:49

it wasn't until my second where

27:51

I was again on this path

27:53

of serial miscarriages and I remember

27:56

just one day it was like

27:58

I was in California I had

28:00

to get on a plane and

28:02

go to Utah to speak to

28:04

like I don't know like a

28:06

thousand girls and like the governor

28:08

and like that morning get a

28:10

call from the doctor and they're

28:12

like okay your hc g levels

28:14

are not going up you're gonna

28:16

miscarry and I just got on

28:18

a plane and I was sitting

28:20

there in front of these girls

28:22

and heart was just breaking and

28:24

I remember saying, saying, this is

28:26

it, I'm not doing it again.

28:28

And I went to my team.

28:30

And I said, guys, and I'd

28:32

never told them I was going

28:34

through this. I mean, they kind

28:36

of knew because they would see

28:38

these doctors' appointments on my schedule,

28:40

but I never, like just said,

28:42

I need, and I can't do

28:44

this anymore. I need you to

28:46

take over, I need you to

28:48

run this organization. I just need,

28:50

I need a month. I need

28:52

a couple months just to just

28:54

to just to just to just

28:56

breathe. That takes so much courage

28:59

to say it. It did. It

29:01

did, but it's right is because

29:03

I had to detach because I

29:05

felt like I was letting the

29:07

girls down. I mean, how ironic

29:09

is that, right? In my quest

29:11

to become a mother, that just

29:13

all I want, you have this

29:15

beautiful line that I quote all

29:17

the time, the most important title

29:19

I have is Mom. And I

29:21

so desperately wanted that title. Oh.

29:23

You know, I was, what is

29:25

that book? I actually think I

29:27

have it all, you know, was

29:29

a lot. Yes. But that in,

29:31

in the journey, how many layers

29:33

come up and then you can

29:35

start to recognize those patterns in

29:37

your business, in your life, in,

29:39

you know, I was, what is

29:41

that book? I actually think I

29:43

have it here. My friend just

29:45

sent me this passage yesterday. It's

29:47

called the boy the mole the

29:49

fox and the horse. It's a

29:51

children's book that came out of

29:53

the UK a couple years ago

29:55

But at any rate beautiful illustrations.

29:57

I have to get it for

29:59

you, but the quote is What

30:02

is? the bravest thing you've ever

30:04

said, asked the boy. Help, said

30:06

the horse. And at a certain

30:08

point, you go, the courage that

30:10

it takes for a female founder,

30:12

the courage that it takes for

30:14

a woman, when you're on this

30:16

path, you're on this grind, you've

30:18

set expectations, the courage that it

30:20

takes to say, I need help.

30:22

or I need to pause is

30:24

tremendous. And there is no way

30:26

to continue to show up and

30:28

role model for these young women,

30:30

all the things that you aspire

30:32

for them to have, that you

30:34

wanted to have when you were

30:36

a young girl, if you are

30:38

not doing it with complete authenticity

30:40

because you are so close to

30:42

being burned out. Yeah. Yeah, and

30:44

it's funny, I don't know how

30:46

to learn this lesson, I'm going

30:48

to be honest, like a couple

30:50

weeks ago, you know, I had

30:52

a breast exam and they thought

30:54

they saw something and then I

30:56

had to get a biopsy, and

30:58

I had to get a biopsy,

31:00

and I had never gotten a

31:02

biopsy before, so I didn't know

31:05

what to expect, but they're like,

31:07

it's just like, I keep my

31:09

schedule. Right? I keep it all.

31:11

I tell my husband's like, let

31:13

me come with you. I'm like,

31:15

no, no, no, no, I'm good.

31:17

I got it. I'm fine. No.

31:19

And it hurt like hell, right?

31:21

My whole breath, right? And I

31:23

go and I do the panel

31:25

and I'm sitting there and I'm

31:27

like, what is wrong with you?

31:29

And I think it's so hard

31:31

to unlearn. Hmm. What this is

31:33

really about because I think one

31:35

it's personal but to like the

31:37

sense of like I'm strong I'm

31:39

resilient I can take it I

31:41

got it right because that all

31:43

these things have served me. That's

31:45

why I've been able to do

31:47

the things that I do and

31:49

then I think we live in

31:51

the society that encourages women to

31:53

do that, in the sense that

31:55

we don't break and we're not

31:57

allowed to break. Not allowed to

31:59

break? You have to keep smiling.

32:01

All of these constructs that I

32:03

think we've all been prey to

32:06

and have projected, and at a

32:08

certain point, I mean, I often

32:10

find too, even in the advocacy

32:12

work or showing up and wanting

32:14

to, that you go, am I

32:16

saying the thing, but I'm not

32:18

doing the thing? Yeah. And when

32:20

can we start taking our own

32:22

advice? What do you think that

32:24

pivot point will be? When will

32:26

the inflection point happen where women,

32:28

especially the ones who are leading

32:30

in these movements and leading in

32:32

this messaging, to actually integrate that

32:34

advice and not just know it

32:36

or intellectualize it to integrate it,

32:38

for you to say, yeah, you

32:40

know, honey, I am going to

32:42

clear the rest of my schedule

32:44

after this appointment, and please can

32:46

you drive me and come with

32:48

me? So you're seeing a lot

32:50

of these women who've given themselves

32:52

to the movement who've had real

32:54

health scares and challenges and you

32:56

know that they're not not connected,

32:58

right? Meaning like we expect the

33:00

people that are trying to fight

33:02

for women and girls to always

33:04

be on, to always be working.

33:06

And we also know at the

33:09

same time that there's no finish

33:11

line. Yeah. And that the body

33:13

holds the score. Exactly. Exactly, and

33:15

especially for women of color, right,

33:17

who are always like, oh, but

33:19

you should go fight, and you

33:21

should go fight, and you should

33:23

go save us, that we can't

33:25

continue to operate that way. And

33:27

so I think we have to

33:29

just, because one of the things

33:31

I'm seeing, I don't have as

33:33

many young girls or young women

33:35

reaching out to Manlington being like,

33:37

Mr. Johnny, I also want to

33:39

start a nonprofit. How do I

33:41

do that? I think that they're

33:43

looking at us and seeing how

33:45

exhausted we are, how tired we

33:47

are, how much you have to

33:49

sacrifice and saying, yeah, no, thank

33:51

you. Oh, wow. And if that

33:53

happens, we're gonna lose a generation

33:55

of social entrepreneurs that we desperately

33:57

need to continue these fights. Yeah.

33:59

And so we got to show

34:01

him a different way. We got

34:03

to do it a different way.

34:06

Gretchen, we always on this

34:08

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34:10

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36:11

So you mentioned before

36:14

the break that a lot

36:16

of these young female entrepreneurs that

36:18

have that desire to build something are

36:20

looking at their mentors and saying no

36:22

thank you. Based on the burnout they're

36:24

seeing. And so I guess the question

36:26

is how do we turn that around?

36:28

How do we show that perfect doesn't

36:30

exist and maybe that's part of the

36:32

messaging, but also what does it look

36:35

like now when you can find balance?

36:37

And it's not one or the other,

36:39

you know, one of the things I'm

36:41

seeing in the motherhood movement is people

36:43

think you have to pick being a

36:45

girl boss or a tribe wife, that

36:47

it's black or white, right? That either you're

36:49

in the workforce and you can't focus on

36:52

your kids and you don't get to see

36:54

them, or you're just at home. And I

36:56

think the point is that we're just presenting

36:58

these like polar opposite choices when really what

37:00

we all want is something in the mail. I

37:02

want to be able to pick my kids up,

37:04

you know, at school, every so often, give them

37:07

a little hug and a kiss, have some flexibility,

37:09

not be on the plane all the time, but

37:11

I want to be able to crush it in

37:13

the things that I care about. Yes, now you

37:15

have the title of mom, just like me. Favorite

37:17

title, love it. It is the thing where you're

37:20

like, oh my gosh, I just need a break,

37:22

I just need a minute, I just need a

37:24

minute, I just need a minute, and the second,

37:26

you step in the other room, you go, oh

37:28

but where are they? Let me just pop, let me

37:30

just, let me scroll through pictures of the endlessly on

37:32

my phone, and then you just, my husband's like, my love,

37:35

can you just give yourself a minute, why don't you

37:37

go take a bath, I'm like, I know, but I

37:39

just want to just want to cuddle for, it, it,

37:41

it, it, it, it's the, it's the, it's the, it's

37:43

the, it's the, it's the, it's the, it's the, it's the,

37:45

it's the, it's the, it's the, it's the, it's the,

37:47

it's the, it's the, it's the, it's the, it's the,

37:49

it's the, it's the, it's It is so full on

37:51

and I wouldn't trade it for anything, but I think

37:53

what's really key about what you said and the pandemic may

37:55

have been the thing that shifted this when working from home

37:57

and parenting from home where they are completely converged.

37:59

can feel incredibly overwhelming. How do you

38:02

feel about that? I feel like the

38:04

way that we've built workplaces, we've set

38:06

women up to fail, period. You know,

38:08

and the thing I always think about,

38:10

Megan, is like, look, we have the

38:12

most educated workforce of women. Like, 75%

38:14

of the high school valetorians are girls,

38:17

right? Most of those getting their PhDs

38:19

are girls. We have to ask ourselves,

38:21

why do we have the most educated

38:23

population of women that have the lowest

38:25

amount of participation in the labor force?

38:27

And the reason is, is because when

38:29

we become moms, because of the cost

38:31

of child care, because of the lack

38:34

of availability of child care, because we

38:36

just don't make it possible for you

38:38

to do both, oftentimes women are having

38:40

to downshift or make choices. And the

38:42

way we've tried to solve this problem

38:44

is say, well, the problem is women,

38:46

right? Like, you got to get more

38:48

confidence, you got to power pose, you

38:51

know, your way before a meeting, you

38:53

got to get a mentor, right? It's

38:55

all about your wrong, you're broken, when

38:57

really it's just structural. And what was

38:59

so amazing about this in the pandemic

39:01

is I think it gave us a

39:03

window of what's possible. So like if

39:05

you do have flexibility, if you can

39:08

take care of your kid when they're

39:10

sick and still get in it and

39:12

still get in it. on a meeting.

39:14

Right. If you still can not be

39:16

set to fail because the school days

39:18

830 and the work days 9 to

39:20

5, right, if we can actually give

39:22

people grace and flexibility and give women

39:25

ownership over their time, you will actually

39:27

see a shift. And also, with that

39:29

comes the woman who is juggling it

39:31

all and doing it all from home,

39:33

being confident enough to tell the truth

39:35

about what's going on. Because you can't

39:37

give grace to someone in the same

39:39

way if you just have no sense

39:42

of it. You don't know if they,

39:44

my kids for example right now, one

39:46

has RSV, the other has influenza A.

39:48

I hear a little pitter patter of

39:50

the upstairs, they're home from school, you

39:52

know. officer up all night and rubbing

39:54

the back and this and you go

39:56

and we still find a way to

39:59

show up for both. But being able

40:01

to be comfortable enough and maybe that's

40:03

to your earlier point how we teach

40:05

this generation who might not feel as

40:07

inspired to do some of the change

40:09

making that we know has been so

40:11

fundamental, say, no, just be honest in

40:13

the journey of it, and say, yeah,

40:16

today I'm going to show up for

40:18

you, but I'm showing up for you

40:20

in my sweatshirt today, because I've been

40:22

up all night with my babies, but

40:24

I'm still going to be able to

40:26

show up for both because both matter

40:28

and both are what keep my cup

40:30

full. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

40:33

We breastfed in closets. We didn't put

40:35

our, right? We didn't put our kids

40:37

picture on there. We like, we're like,

40:39

oh my God, I'm sorry. Yeah. Like

40:41

I always say, like, you know, girls

40:43

who code, mostly women work for me,

40:45

they get pregnant all the time. And

40:47

we kill it, right, like. I have

40:50

built like two of the most fastest

40:52

growing non-profits and we live our values.

40:54

And so the sense of that, well,

40:56

you know, you're not going to be

40:58

productive or you're like, you know, watching

41:00

Netflix while you're working. It's just not

41:02

true. And so we just have to,

41:05

but there's so much resistant to change.

41:07

Yes. And I do think that part

41:09

of that is about having women ask

41:11

for what they need and our male

41:13

allies. You know, one of the things

41:15

that you've seen really shift. in this

41:17

remote work conversation is a lot of

41:19

matters saying, okay, great, you want me

41:22

to come back to work? Dads are

41:24

saying, you need to support me in

41:26

my child care. You need to change

41:28

your paid leave policies, right? You need

41:30

to allow me to be a parent

41:32

and just thrive. But I think that

41:34

is just absolutely right is like, how

41:36

do we ask and demand? what we

41:39

need. I mean you see it even

41:41

in promotions. Men will not, if they

41:43

leave the workforce, they will go back

41:45

and they will not compromise on their

41:47

salary. Whereas, well, I'm like, all right,

41:49

you want to pay me 20% less?

41:51

Okay, fine, thank you. Right. It's true.

41:53

It's true. And that's the shift that

41:56

has to come. And I think, look,

41:58

as you continue to grow out. I

42:01

don't know what your next chapter looks

42:03

like for you, especially when you say

42:05

eight years and then maybe time for

42:08

a change. Now you've already forecasted that

42:10

in some way because we know your

42:12

proof points of how that works. What

42:14

do you feel like your next chapter

42:17

will be? Well, listen, I love exposing

42:19

cons, and I think one of the

42:21

things with all of these things that

42:23

are in common is one, what do

42:25

you mean girls can't code? Yes, it

42:28

can. And they can build incredible things.

42:30

What do you mean? We can't redesign

42:32

workplaces for women. Yes, we can. We

42:34

need to pass childcare and pay leave.

42:37

And, you know, the work I'm doing

42:39

on my podcast right now, my so-called

42:41

midlife, was like, I was in that

42:43

inflection point between girls who code and

42:46

moms first. There was no third baby,

42:48

right? Like, I was seeing wrinkles on

42:50

my face that I hadn't seen before.

42:52

My body was changing because of Perry

42:55

Menopause. And I was just like, like,

42:57

feeling like, like, like, like, my best

42:59

years are behind me. my monk Rosinaz.

43:01

And that's why I started reading The

43:04

Bug with Geitha, because I realized like

43:06

all the things that we're holding me

43:08

back and the things that I were

43:10

holding on to. And it just opened

43:13

up such this incredible moment of one

43:15

rethinking midlife for women, because I think

43:17

the view about midlife is so different

43:19

for women and men, and we need

43:21

to change it, because we are living

43:24

longer than we ever expected. ever expected.

43:26

And I don't know if you do

43:28

this, but like, you know, the largest

43:30

gender pay gap is for women above

43:33

50. Like, I have so many friends

43:35

now who are approaching 15 who are

43:37

like, I can't get that promotion. I

43:39

can't become a partner at that venture

43:42

fund. Like, I can't start that business.

43:44

Like, the way we perceive women, their

43:46

potential and their opportunity, you know, I

43:48

call it the midlife penalty for women,

43:51

really changes. And so to me, I

43:53

think I will continue to do this

43:55

work. Right? I will continue to do

43:57

this work about women. I have made

44:00

the realization though, Megan, we may not

44:02

win in our... lifetimes. Meaning what? Meaning

44:04

that I might die with women having

44:06

less rights than they had when I

44:08

was born. That we may not see

44:11

a female president in my lifetime. That

44:13

your daughters, my nieces, may still be

44:15

fighting the same fights that we're fighting.

44:17

And for me, that was a really

44:20

hard reality to face in midlife because

44:22

we went through all the things we

44:24

sacrificed to our health, our family, and

44:26

we have to say, God, is it

44:29

worth it? Like, what is the point?

44:31

What is the point if we keep

44:33

dismantling progress? And I think I've realized

44:35

that probably me, you, were put on

44:38

this earth just like those suffragettes, just

44:40

keep hope alive, keep fighting, keep pushing,

44:42

because yeah, that's the point. You like,

44:44

you lose, you lose, you lose, and

44:47

then you win. Yes. Right? You lose,

44:49

lose, lose, and then you win. And

44:51

sometimes just when you think you're about

44:53

to win, oh, man, did that hurt?

44:56

Because that feels like quite a loss.

44:58

But you just keep going. And I

45:00

think my understanding, especially in having this

45:02

time to be able to hear your

45:04

story and talk with you and see

45:07

the commonality in some of these other

45:09

equally successful women that I'm speaking. We're

45:11

going to talk about what's behind every

45:13

successful woman, what's behind every successful... What's

45:16

behind every successful woman is self-awareness. There

45:18

comes a point where each of these

45:20

women on their journeys has such a

45:22

tremendous sense of self-awareness and the desire

45:25

to dig deeper that is unflappable. I

45:27

think that's right, and I think you

45:29

realize, like, I don't care what other

45:31

people think about me, like, I'm not...

45:34

I'm not doing this. I just, to

45:36

me, I want to die knowing that

45:38

I lived my fullest potential. And that

45:40

I gave back to like, a key,

45:43

a key, go back to my parent's

45:45

story, like about the people that sheltered

45:47

them, that took them in, that fed

45:49

them. Like I will continue to fight

45:51

for our children to make sure that

45:54

this, that this world is good, that

45:56

they learn. see goodness. And I think

45:58

that we have a role to play

46:00

in that, but I think the lesson

46:03

is is that you got to do

46:05

it with joy. Yes. And it can't

46:07

come at an expense, right, to your

46:09

health or to your happiness or to

46:12

your children. Yes, and everything has some

46:14

expense, right? But when you're looking, what's

46:16

the ROI? What is your return on

46:18

the investment of everything you're pouring into

46:21

that? And at the end of the

46:23

day, what you're doing is creating legacy

46:25

that will, whether you see those changes

46:27

in your lifetime or our kid's lifetime,

46:30

it's still steps in the right direction

46:32

of what legacy is all about. And

46:34

that I think is one of the

46:36

most fascinating, probably most powerful things about

46:39

the journey of creation. as a female

46:41

founder. You're creating something with lasting impact.

46:43

Well, thank you so much for all

46:45

your, seriously, Megan. There's so much gratitude

46:47

and love towards you. I just hope,

46:50

I hope you know that. Thank you,

46:52

and thank you for joining me today.

46:54

I appreciate it. How far we've come,

46:56

and yet here we are. Here we

46:59

are. Wherever we go, here we are.

47:01

I really appreciate it. All right, take

47:03

good care. Bye. Bye. Next

47:09

week, we are talking to an iconic

47:12

founder in the beauty industry. She is

47:14

a hair colorist. She's a stylist too,

47:16

but my goodness, can this girl do

47:18

some color? And she has turned her

47:21

passion into products that people crave. When

47:23

I said the words, the world does

47:25

not need another shampoo and conditioner. Literally,

47:27

I could have heard an amen from

47:30

the crowd. Like, people were over it.

47:32

Can you guess who it is? I'll

47:34

see you then. Confessions of a female

47:36

founder is a production of Lemon Automedia,

47:39

created and hosted by Megan. Our producers

47:41

are Catherine Barnes and Oha Lopez. Kristen

47:43

Lepore is our senior supervising producer. producer.

47:45

Executive producers are Stephanie Little's Wax,

47:48

Jessica Cordova Kramer, and Megan. Mix and

47:50

sound design design are

47:52

by Evans. Rachel Neal is VP

47:54

is our VP of

47:57

new content and

47:59

production, and and Steve

48:01

Nelson is our SVP

48:03

of weekly content

48:06

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48:21

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48:32

much for listening. We'll see you

48:34

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48:37

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48:43

much for listening.

48:45

We'll see you

48:48

next week. Great.