0:00

Hello and welcome to the

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Harvard Data Science Re podcast.

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I'm Liberty Vivid, your host

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for today's episode. Sleep, something

0:09

we all need yet often

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neglect, is at the center

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of some of the most

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exciting developments in data science

0:18

and health research. Joining me

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is Dr. Rebecca Robbins from

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Harvard Medical School and co-author

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of Sleep for Success, whose

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work explores how we can

0:28

unlock better sleep for healthier

0:31

lives, and less tired societies.

0:33

From wearable tech and machine

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learning, to behavioral changes, we

0:37

can easily implement our own

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lives, we'll dive into the

0:41

evolving landscape of sleep research.

0:44

What the data says about

0:46

our changing sleep habits, which

0:48

modern sleep trends actually work,

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and which don't, and how

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modern science intersects with an

0:54

ever more tired population. If

0:56

you're listening to this and

0:58

you're commute or even to

1:00

help you fall asleep, join

1:02

us for a fascinating conversation

1:04

on the science of sleep. You

1:06

know, sleep, I can't remember where

1:09

I read it, but it's like

1:11

we spend 26 years of our

1:13

life sleeping. What makes sleep good?

1:15

You know, beyond waking up and

1:17

I don't know, maybe not feeling

1:19

tired, what does good sleep mean?

1:21

Sleep is one of the most important

1:23

parts of our 24-hour day. It's the

1:25

period of time where our brain takes

1:27

a break. We enter and reenter these

1:29

very beautiful different sleep stages in this

1:31

kind of symphonic way. And I think

1:33

we can all attest that when we

1:35

get a good night sleep, we strike

1:37

every cord in the symphony of the

1:39

night and we're able to wake up

1:41

and be refreshed and we have energy.

1:43

We're more creative, we're more productive, we're

1:45

in a better mood. So many aspects

1:47

of our health fall into place when

1:49

we're getting enough. Now, the features of

1:51

a great night's sleep, I think

1:53

we often talk about duration a

1:55

lot, getting enough sleep, getting the

1:57

seven, eight, or nine, and bye.

2:00

the way, every adult is somewhere

2:02

within that range between seven and

2:04

nine hours of sleep. And one

2:06

of the goals is to find

2:08

out where you personally are on

2:10

that spectrum. Some people do very

2:12

well on seven hours consistently. Others

2:14

do very well and truly need

2:16

closer to nine. It's in part

2:18

genetically determined. So if you had

2:20

two parents that were shorter sleepers,

2:22

you might be able to get

2:25

by on seven hours. And then

2:27

vice versa, if you had two

2:29

longer sleeping parents, you might truly

2:31

need closer to eight or nine

2:33

hours. And one of the first

2:35

things is, unfortunately we do not

2:37

have any kind of antidote for

2:39

the need to spend the time

2:41

sleeping. So there's no exception. Making

2:43

time for sleep is the cornerstone

2:45

of a good night's rest and

2:47

a healthy sleep schedule. But in

2:49

addition, the constellation of things that

2:52

surround our sleep are really important,

2:54

especially the activities leading up to

2:56

sleep itself really matter for our

2:58

ability to wake up and be

3:00

restored. And that feeling of restoration

3:02

after waking is really what it's

3:04

all about. And we set ourself

3:06

up for that and for success

3:08

by getting enough sleep, keeping our

3:10

sleep times consistent, and then doing

3:12

a lot of the other things

3:14

right for really our health, keeping

3:16

dinner light, managing our stress over

3:19

the course the day, trying not

3:21

to be on email, too close

3:23

to bedtime, trying to unwind from

3:25

screens and filling the time before

3:27

bed with relaxing activities. So that

3:29

was interesting what you said that

3:31

the data really shows that adults

3:33

are somewhere on the seven to

3:35

nine hour spectrum. So if I

3:37

regularly get seven hours and I

3:39

feel okay about that, I shouldn't

3:41

be nervous that I hear my

3:43

friends say, well, I get nine

3:46

hours every night. I shouldn't be

3:48

saying, okay, well, I better get

3:50

nine then. No, sleep is very

3:52

individual. We're very unique and kind

3:54

of little snowflakes of a sleep

3:56

duration requirement and imprint of what

3:58

we really biologically truly need. And

4:00

I think conversely, a lot of

4:02

people can be worried that if

4:04

they hear other people saying, oh,

4:06

I get five or six hours

4:08

and I do great because you I

4:11

hear that a lot. Unfortunately, we brag in our society about not

4:13

getting enough sleep. And I hope at one point in my career

4:15

I will see that change. I think we're starting to see signs

4:17

of it. You know, even at the, you know, the. kind of

4:19

upreshelons of the business world that's been known for bragging about not

4:21

getting enough sleep and wearing their sleep deprivation like a badge of

4:23

honor. And so I think it's easy for someone who's maybe getting

4:25

seven or eight or nine hours to hear those stories and think

4:27

what's wrong with me? Why am I wasting all this time? Wrong.

4:29

Anyone who's interested in performance must be interested in

4:31

sleep because when you get your

4:33

sleep schedules in line, you identify

4:36

your personal sleep need, you're practicing

4:38

consistent consistent... sleep, falling asleep, but

4:40

ideally as close to the same

4:42

time, waking up is close to

4:44

the same time. When you're doing

4:46

those things right, you charge out

4:48

of bed, you have more energy,

4:50

you're more productive, creative, a better

4:52

problem solvers, so many good things

4:54

happen. But I think the other

4:56

interesting thing about sleep is that it's

4:58

often miscommunicated in conversation. I think that,

5:00

you know, if you ask someone how

5:02

they are, they'll say, oh, I'm tired.

5:04

battle stories of exhaustion and staying up

5:06

late and cutting sleep short and think

5:09

that that is a key to success

5:11

when all of the research shows that

5:13

it's the opposite. When we put sleep

5:15

at the center of really all of

5:17

our health behaviors, the dirty secret is

5:19

you wake up, you want to work

5:21

out harder, you're going to get more

5:23

out of your workout, and you're going

5:25

to better manage your appetite also when

5:27

you're well rested. Are there certain types

5:29

of people who sleep better? Or is

5:31

it just the things that they do? Like

5:34

are there certain things you're supposed to do

5:36

before you go to bed that mean you

5:38

have better sleep or whatnot? Or are there

5:40

different types of people that actually do sleep

5:43

better? I'm not sure that this has been

5:45

very well studied, but I think that there

5:47

are some individuals who maybe are prone to

5:49

struggling with their sleep a little bit more

5:51

than others. We do have some data also

5:53

that to show that women after having children,

5:55

their sleep becomes fundamentally a little bit lighter

5:57

because they're on a little bit higher alert.

5:59

for sounds from babies and then might

6:02

struggle also to fall asleep as compared

6:04

to their pre-childbearing years. But all by

6:06

way of saying, I think there are

6:08

slight differences. Some people say, up and

6:11

down, I'm a great sleeper. Easy, no

6:13

worries, you know, as long as I'm

6:15

practicing the dictates of healthy, you know,

6:17

sleep hygiene and behaviors in terms of

6:20

getting enough sleep, keeping consistent schedules. Whereas

6:22

I think there is another group of

6:24

people, it's not a huge proportion of

6:27

the population for whom... sleep is a

6:29

little bit more of a struggle. So

6:31

that could maybe mean working harder to

6:33

calm your mind if you're in that

6:36

category. It could be, you know, making

6:38

an effort to journal write down your

6:40

worries before bedtime if you fall in

6:42

that category. So, you know, I have

6:45

this ring on this or ring and

6:47

I think I saw, do you have

6:49

some, a wearable of some sort? So

6:51

I. I get these sleep reports every

6:54

morning. Are these reliable? Do they tell

6:56

me when it says I was in

6:58

deep sleep or light sleep or this

7:00

or I got a, unfortunately I think

7:03

this morning, it was a 62 recovery

7:05

index. Are these reliable? Where does this

7:07

data, how does this data work? Really

7:09

good question. So in 2017, I published

7:12

a paper that used nationally representative data

7:14

and asked this. Representative sample of adults

7:16

in America, do you track your sleep

7:18

with some sort of smartphone up or

7:21

wearable technology? And in 2017, about 28%

7:23

of our sample. representative sample of adults

7:25

in the US said that they were

7:27

tracking their sleep with some sort of

7:30

technology. Now fast forward to where we

7:32

are and I would wager that that

7:34

number has exploded. We don't have a

7:36

good pulse on our population right now

7:39

and I think that study needs to

7:41

be redone, but I would wager that

7:43

it's a pretty high number of our

7:46

proportion of our population are really interested

7:48

in better understanding their sleep. And I

7:50

think that that's almost a bellwether indicator

7:52

of a growing collective interest and awakening

7:55

to the importance of sleep. Because for

7:57

so long in our society, we have

7:59

privileged exercise nutrition above work. family. And

8:01

in some cases, that's very well founded.

8:04

If you have deadlines or times in

8:06

your life, when you're having kids, etc.,

8:08

there are going to be periods of

8:10

time where your sleep is not going

8:13

to be great. But I think there's

8:15

this really exciting collective awakening to the

8:17

importance of sleep. And I think that's

8:19

only a good sign that people are

8:22

really becoming more interested in their sleep,

8:24

better understanding it and improving it. And

8:26

when it comes to sleep trackers... We

8:28

published a paper this fall and it

8:31

was funded by aura ring in full

8:33

disclosure and we compared the aura ring.

8:35

Applewatch and Fitbit to the gold standard,

8:37

which is our laboratory at the Brigham

8:40

and Women's Hospital. And we call the

8:42

gold standard polysomnography, meaning many methods of

8:44

measure. When you come into a sleep

8:46

laboratory, you're connected to electrodes and heart

8:49

rate measurements and respiratory effort to give

8:51

us a really robust understanding of what's

8:53

happening in the body and the brain

8:55

during sleep. Now, when we pit those

8:58

three commercial sleep trackers against the gold

9:00

standard, one thing stood out very clearly

9:02

that these devices all do very, very

9:05

well in comparing wake to sleep, more

9:07

than a 95% correlation between what you're

9:09

seeing from your tracker and the gold

9:11

standard in terms of sleep, wake detection.

9:14

Now, as we... go into the different

9:16

sleep stages and compare the performance of

9:18

each of the devices to the gold

9:20

standard. A couple things stood out. Unfortunately,

9:23

we, despite the devices being initialized, we

9:25

had some data dropout. We were able

9:27

to obtain data from several participants who

9:29

bore Applewatch and Fitbit data. We didn't

9:32

have that problem with ORRA ring. And

9:34

then a couple of the other observations

9:36

as it relates to sleep stages is

9:38

the devices each varied in terms of

9:41

their... the performance in comparison to the

9:43

gold standard on the specific sleep stages

9:45

from light to deep sleep stage three

9:47

to rapid high movement sleep. Now the

9:50

performance ranged from somewhere about 50% performance

9:52

or accuracy in detecting certain stages as

9:54

it related to the Applewatch, up to

9:56

in the high 80s for some of

9:59

the other devices. So there was a

10:01

little bit of a range, but overall

10:03

the devices are really improving in their

10:05

ability to accurately measure these these stages,

10:08

but I will note they are not

10:10

perfect because truly understand if you're in

10:12

rapid eye movement sleep or deep sleep.

10:14

Ideally, I have some sense of your

10:17

brain activity. But outside of a laboratory

10:19

setting, it's not too shabby. So do

10:21

be relatively confident in what you're seeing

10:24

from these devices, but do also take

10:26

them with a grain of salt. If

10:28

you see one awakening and you're looking

10:30

at your date and you're like, I

10:33

don't think I was awake, maybe that

10:35

wasn't a true awakening, but it's actually

10:37

not uncommon for us to wake up

10:39

over the course of the night and

10:42

maybe not remember it. You know, a

10:44

micro awakening and then going back to

10:46

sleep. So I think of these tools

10:48

as a really amazing opportunity to have

10:51

something like a mini sleep lab on

10:53

your finger, on your wrist at night.

10:55

They're not perfect, but they are really

10:57

understanding our sleep. because it's been a

11:00

black box for so long. You know,

11:02

we'd fall asleep and wake up and

11:04

have a general sense of how much

11:06

sleep we were getting. But I think

11:09

one of the most powerful use cases

11:11

for consumer sleep trackers is the fact

11:13

that it takes the healthy sleep or

11:15

about 15 to 20 minutes to fall

11:18

asleep. And often when I speak, I

11:20

like to ask people, you know, how

11:22

many hours of sleep are you getting

11:24

and I ask for a show of

11:27

hands? And so often people say the

11:29

entire room, I get seven hours, you

11:31

know almost. Actually, if you think you're

11:33

getting seven hours, you're probably getting closer

11:36

to six or six and a half

11:38

because we don't factor in that time

11:40

that it takes us to fall asleep.

11:42

Yeah, that makes total sense. I was

11:45

talking with my students about it the

11:47

other day and it was shocking how

11:49

students about it the other day and

11:52

it was shocking how little sleep these

11:54

college kids are getting. Okay, in full

11:56

disclosure, my sleep data last night, my

11:58

ring was like yelling at me and

12:01

they're like, been waking up. It's amazing

12:03

how we can fall into these rests

12:05

with our sleep. The important thing is

12:07

kind of, you know, realizing that they

12:10

happen, you know, sleep's not going to

12:12

be perfect every night. I think that's

12:14

another reason that the trackers are kind

12:16

of powerful to just promote awareness on

12:19

the connection between what we do during

12:21

the day and then our sleep. You

12:23

know, when you wake up and you

12:25

get a bad score, then it prompts

12:28

this automatic self-reflection, whereby you just reflect

12:30

on what you did yesterday and oh,

12:32

you know, I did have a little

12:34

bit too much caffeine. You know, that

12:37

was a pretty stressed yesterday, and how

12:39

that might motivate successive successive behavioral changes

12:41

is a really exciting application of these

12:43

technologies. No, absolutely. I found that the

12:46

actions I've taken from my aura ring

12:48

have been that I see the sleep

12:50

score that morning and if it's a

12:52

bad score, I always get into bed

12:55

earlier. I love that night because I

12:57

go, oh, I got a bad night

12:59

sleep. I need to like get more

13:01

sleep tonight. That's always, it's been my

13:04

action. So I imagine it's got to

13:06

be doing something good. And that's a

13:08

wonderful observation. And I think another really

13:11

helpful thing for all of us to

13:13

keep in mind, because sleep is so

13:15

psychological, and it's easy to wake up,

13:17

and you know, or I think some

13:20

of the causes of kind of insomnia,

13:22

like symptoms at night, can be the

13:24

fear of if you wake up, like,

13:26

oh, I'm up, I want to be

13:29

asleep, but I'm up. And then you

13:31

kind of kick yourself, and then your

13:33

cortisol spikes, and then you struggle to

13:35

fall back asleep. But I think, you

13:38

know, the self-talk is really important that,

13:40

you know, you get up, no big

13:42

deal, take it in stride, and then

13:44

try to get back to sleep. But

13:47

similarly, when we wake up after a

13:49

night of poor sleep, it's easy to

13:51

kind of spiral. Be like, oh, my

13:53

day is going to be terrible. It's

13:56

going to be ruined. One of the

13:58

things to keep in mind, the human

14:00

brain and body are just fascinating and

14:02

can really operate quite well, actually, on

14:05

maybe a night or two of insufficient

14:07

sleep. Just tell yourself that after a

14:09

poor night of sleep, I will get

14:11

back on track. And then if you

14:14

start to look forward to that night,

14:16

I love it Liberty, getting to bed

14:18

early, and then just realizing that you

14:20

need to reset that next night. And

14:23

that just that idea. can sometimes help

14:25

you power through. Good, then it's doing

14:27

what it's supposed to do. I love

14:30

that. You're nailing it. So I have

14:32

to ask about pills, medication that people

14:34

used to fall asleep, whether it's over-the-counter,

14:36

you know, Benadryl, or whether, you know,

14:39

Ambien and Halcyon and Xanax, and everything

14:41

that people are using, should we be

14:43

using these things? Are there ones that

14:45

work better than others? The recommendation from

14:48

the American Academy of Sleep Medicine is

14:50

to speak to your health care provider

14:52

and there is a time and a

14:54

place for these interventions and for someone

14:57

who's perhaps experiencing grief or struggling to

14:59

manage their mental health because insufficient sleep

15:01

and poor mental health are so closely

15:03

linked. And if you just need to

15:06

kind of get yourself back on track

15:08

and the behavioral tips and strategies that

15:10

we're talking about, you know, getting into

15:12

bed a little bit earlier the next

15:15

night, adding a little bit more sleep

15:17

in your bank account, relaxing and unwinding

15:19

before bedtime, if those recommendations are not

15:21

enough. And people will say, often with

15:24

insomnia that really need these sleeping medications,

15:26

will often say, I've tried everything and

15:28

nothing is working. Now the front line

15:30

for insomnia care is actually a behavioral

15:33

regime. It's called cognitive behavioral therapy for

15:35

insomnia. And the data show that this

15:37

is a wonder drug of a behavioral

15:39

intervention because it really works. And when

15:42

delivered with a licensed, experienced clinician. This

15:44

therapy is amazingly beneficial to individuals with

15:46

insomnia. Now the downside is there are

15:49

very few providers who offer this type

15:51

of treatment. We have a kind of

15:53

a dearth of sleep specialists, unfortunately, in

15:55

our country, not enough medical students are

15:58

going into sleep specialties, and then within

16:00

that cohort of already, you know, not

16:02

enough physicians. to supply the demand of

16:04

sleep difficulties. There aren't enough health care

16:07

providers that do CBTI to meet the

16:09

demand. There are some novel approaches and

16:11

companies that are emerging that are thinking

16:13

really thoughtfully about. Maybe AI-powered CBTI interventions

16:16

or avatars or scalable ways to deliver

16:18

CBTI. But if we look at patients

16:20

who have insomnia, after about two or

16:22

three weeks of intensive CBTI, their symptoms

16:25

drop off dramatically. Now what's interesting is

16:27

that drop off in symptoms for insomnia

16:29

patients is mirrored by individuals in a

16:31

pharmacological intervention condition. So both the behavior

16:34

and the pharmacological intervention do very well

16:36

right away. What's interesting in the longer

16:38

term for keeping insomnia symptoms at bay

16:40

is the behavioral regime. The pharmacological intervention

16:43

starts to kind of not be as

16:45

powerful in the longer term. And that's

16:47

such a really compelling narrative, a behavioral

16:49

routine that really is as powerful as

16:52

pharmacological intervention, if not more so in

16:54

the longer term. But it comes back

16:56

to some of the age-old challenges in

16:58

medicine and health care of providing these

17:01

types of treatments at scale because pharmacological

17:03

intervention is much easier. Think of a

17:05

busy provider, a patient comes in, voice

17:08

of sleep complaints, it is much easier

17:10

to provide a pharmacological intervention. But again,

17:12

there are very important use cases for

17:14

this intervention. I think generally speaking, depending

17:17

on the condition. We try to think

17:19

of a pharmacological intervention as a way

17:21

to intervene and not as a longer

17:23

term solution, but help someone during a

17:26

difficult time. And again, it depends. So

17:28

please speak to your health care provider

17:30

always because there are very valid cases

17:32

where these interventions are going to be

17:35

required in the longer term. But they

17:37

are again, a godsend for many, many

17:39

patients suffering from insomnia, but not something

17:41

that we recommend across the population. You

17:44

know, I'm pregnant and sleep has been...

17:46

a nightmare recently. So I've, and I've,

17:48

and I've caught, I'm sure I've been

17:50

googling it, so now Instagram is targeting

17:53

me with all these sleep. trends and

17:55

I've watched sort of countless videos online

17:57

from people swearing by their own methods

17:59

and I've tried some of them. So

18:02

I tried blue light glasses and they

18:04

gave me a headache and I was

18:06

about to start taking magnesium and then

18:08

I decided I shouldn't do that for

18:11

the baby and then I did mouth

18:13

tape but I'm congested so I woke

18:15

up feeling like I couldn't breathe and

18:17

so the other night I'm like oh

18:20

my god none of these are working.

18:22

Are any of these trends really promising?

18:24

Or are there any of these sort

18:26

of online trends that are potentially harmful?

18:29

Where have we sort of seen the

18:31

data show something good or bad? Great

18:33

question. And you're not alone with pretty

18:36

during pregnancy. Oh my gosh, it's

18:38

such a difficult time. I've been

18:40

there. I have two young kids.

18:42

I remember it all too well,

18:44

especially as you approach the third

18:46

trimester where you just get uncomfortable.

18:48

It's hard to find a position

18:50

to be able to sleep. And

18:52

if this has been your experience,

18:54

we do also understand that babies

18:56

in the womb are kind of

18:58

rock to sleep as mom walks

19:00

around and then they can start

19:02

to wake up when you want

19:04

to be powering down at night

19:06

so that can further as the

19:08

baby grows hinder your ability to

19:10

get a good night. So realize

19:12

your ability to get a good

19:14

night's. So realize that you're not

19:16

alone. I think you're doing everything

19:18

you can. I love that you're

19:20

looking at ways to improve your

19:22

sleep. I will caution you against

19:24

some of these hacks. of misinformation

19:26

about sleep on some of these

19:28

common social media platforms, and we

19:30

found that the presence of concerning

19:32

misinformation about sleep was prevalent in

19:34

videos that were produced by non-experts,

19:36

like bloggers or content creators that

19:38

might not have sleep expertise. It's

19:40

just one example that... one of

19:42

the most kind of ridiculous claims

19:44

and one of the most popular

19:46

viewed by millions of people talked

19:48

about a magical sleep button on

19:50

your forehead and so it's almost

19:52

laughable you know some of this

19:54

stuff. The mouth taping trend is

19:56

a really interesting one because it

19:58

really all came from a book

20:00

called breath and in that book

20:02

there is a journalist who described

20:04

a bunch of different studies. and

20:06

reported on some research in a

20:08

really thoughtful way on the importance

20:10

of nostril breathing, avoiding mouth breathing

20:12

for your health and for a

20:14

number of different areas. And in

20:16

one paragraph, I think it was

20:18

described in a sentence or two,

20:20

they'd interviewed a dentist who was

20:22

encouraging a patient to breathe through

20:24

their nose by applying duct tape

20:26

to the patient's mouth at night.

20:28

And I actually, I kind of

20:30

come from the business world, so

20:32

I'm, you know, I'm always intrigued

20:34

now as a scientist thinking about

20:36

how these huge industries emerge. That's

20:38

how it happened. This mouth breathing

20:40

trend and then companies emerged that

20:42

we're creating these different, you know,

20:44

products and now it's a multi-million.

20:46

Dollar, yeah, industry, it's enormous. Some

20:48

people swear by it. I just

20:50

would love to study it. I

20:52

would love to understand how it

20:54

improves sleep if it does, and

20:56

you know, what might be the

20:58

cautionary tales, because I do think

21:00

it would be important just to

21:02

document any adverse events or anyone

21:04

for whom mouthtaping would really be,

21:06

you know, something to discourage. Yeah,

21:08

well, my $50 mouth tape is

21:10

only gotten one year, so if

21:12

anyone needs someone, let me know,

21:14

I'll send it. Are there sort

21:16

of modern sleep myths that researchers

21:18

have debunked or things that we

21:21

thought about sleep for a long

21:23

time that we've now changed our

21:25

tune on? We published a paper

21:27

on the most common myths about

21:29

sleep because of sleep scientists and

21:31

specialists, one of the most common

21:33

questions we get are often almost

21:35

phrased as a myth. You know,

21:37

I've heard that people can get

21:39

by on five or six hours.

21:41

Is that true? And so we

21:43

spend a lot of our time

21:45

debunking myths about sleep. And I

21:47

think that would be true for

21:49

any area of medicine or public

21:51

health. It maybe is kind of

21:53

emerging and, you know, growing in

21:55

interest. And I think that's the

21:57

case for sleep now, which makes

21:59

it, you know, an exciting place

22:01

to be again, because of this

22:03

kind of awakening about the importance

22:05

of sleep and collective, you know,

22:07

increased attention to it. But yeah,

22:09

so we spent a lot of

22:11

our time debunking myths, so we

22:13

wrote a paper. on the topic.

22:15

And one of the most common

22:17

is the age-old idea of that

22:19

one person someone knows or the

22:21

cousin of someone they know who

22:23

sleeps for five hours and does

22:25

great. We also have historical narratives

22:27

about figures like Thomas Edison would

22:29

brag about getting five hours of

22:31

sleep. But what's not widely known

22:33

is Thomas Edison had a cot

22:35

in his office and would spend

22:37

hours in the afternoon sleeping. And

22:39

so I think we hear these,

22:41

yeah, these old wives tales that

22:43

are passed down. And I mean,

22:45

wouldn't that also be nice, right,

22:47

if you only needed four or

22:49

five hours? We'd have so much

22:51

more time of the day, but

22:53

we don't yet have a treatment

22:55

or any tool to kind of

22:57

consolidate the benefits of sleep in

22:59

a shorter period of time. We

23:01

just have to spend the time

23:03

sleeping. Another one of the common

23:05

myths that we hear is alcohol,

23:07

the kind of idea of a

23:09

night cap being good for your

23:11

sleep. Alcohol is one of the

23:13

most common and widespread sleep disruptors.

23:15

One glass of wine or beer

23:17

with dinner a couple hours before

23:19

bedtime likely won't have a big

23:21

impact, but depending on your body

23:23

mass index, and if you have

23:25

more than one, then it's going

23:27

to start to fundamentally interrupt the

23:29

architecture of your sleep. So if

23:31

anyone... you know, had been out

23:33

and drank a couple glasses and

23:35

you maybe fell asleep quickly and

23:37

you just woke up feeling awful.

23:39

After nine, ten hours of sleep,

23:41

why do I feel so bad?

23:43

We feel so terrible because alcohol

23:45

starts to interrupt some of the

23:47

most restorative stages of sleep. It

23:49

deprives us of wrap and eye

23:51

movement sleep and results in more

23:53

awakenings, more trips to the bathroom.

23:55

So you might spend a little

23:57

bit more time sleeping, but it's

23:59

not going to be good quality

24:01

sleep. You know, but pre-pregnancy that

24:03

was definitely me. So I think

24:05

I think I think that's definitely

24:07

true. You'll follow up on your

24:09

Thomas Edison thought here. Is there

24:11

research sort of about this split

24:13

sleep schedule? Like can you get

24:15

the same benefit from a short

24:18

map and a little bit of

24:20

Is it better if it's all

24:22

in one go? We do have

24:24

a lot of data to show

24:26

that the most optimal health... well-being,

24:28

longevity outcomes come when we consolidate

24:30

our sleep to one period. That's

24:32

ideally between seven and nine hours,

24:34

and ideally we're meeting on as

24:36

many nights of the week as

24:38

possible. And in addition, finding a

24:40

time that we can fall asleep

24:42

and wake up and keep those

24:44

times consistent as much as we

24:46

can, as many nights and mornings

24:48

of the week. Now, we do

24:50

have historical evidence that our ancestors

24:52

slept in two periods. They would

24:54

fall asleep with the sun, and

24:56

if you imagine Boston in the

24:58

winter months. in the 1700s, it

25:00

would be hard to have one

25:02

consolidated period of sleep because the

25:04

sun would set at four o'clock

25:06

and rise at maybe seven, eight

25:08

o'clock in the morning, so it's

25:10

a lot of time without any

25:12

sunlight. So the historical records are

25:14

showing that many of our ancestors

25:16

would fall asleep with the sunset

25:18

and then they'd wake up in

25:20

the middle of the night. and

25:22

they'd be up for maybe 30

25:24

minutes, maybe an hour, play games.

25:26

We think a lot of children

25:28

were conceived around this time in

25:30

the middle of the night. And

25:32

then they'd fall back asleep. And

25:34

what was so prescient is many

25:36

of these populations referred to the

25:38

second period of sleep as sweet

25:40

sleep. And in the architecture of

25:42

a healthy night of sleep, we

25:44

see that deep sleep predominates in

25:46

the first half and then rapid

25:48

eye movement sleep predominates in the

25:50

second half. So if you're interrupting

25:52

your sleep, at the midpoint, you're

25:54

going to have rem rich sleep

25:56

in the morning, which is where

25:58

we get all of the benefits

26:00

cognitively of our sleep. And isn't

26:02

that fascinating that our ancestors would

26:04

be able to have some awareness

26:06

that this, you know, sweet sleep

26:08

in the morning is what allowed

26:10

them to be kind of cognitively

26:12

fresh after waking? Yeah, that's amazing

26:14

how that sort of work. But

26:16

again, all of the benefits from

26:18

the standpoint of our heart health,

26:20

our body health, our brain health,

26:22

all show that the consolidation of

26:24

sleep is critical whenever possible. And

26:26

thinking about adding in naps really

26:28

is kind of a band-aid. If

26:30

you didn't sleep very well and

26:32

you are dragging instead of leaning

26:34

on a caffeinated beverage that might

26:36

hurt your sleep the next night,

26:38

the best strategy would be taking

26:40

a nap. I always laugh when

26:42

people say, you know, what's the

26:44

best energy drink or caffeine or,

26:46

you know, when can I take

26:48

it or a caffeine nap? It's

26:50

so funny to me how we

26:52

push back on the one evidence-based

26:54

way to alleviate sleep. And there

26:56

are a couple different naps you

26:58

can take. Some research from our

27:00

colleagues that MIT is showing that

27:02

even a few seconds or moments

27:04

in a nap, if you're just

27:06

feeling a little sleepy, can give

27:08

you a boost of creativity, believe

27:10

it or not, and moments or

27:12

seconds. And I love that research,

27:15

because it really lowers the bar,

27:17

right? Because somebody will say, yeah,

27:19

totally, they're like, no, I can't

27:21

nap, I'm not a napper, can't

27:23

do it, not for me. But

27:25

if you just lower the bar,

27:27

actually can wake up and be

27:29

quite refreshed. Well, I think I

27:31

have 8 million more questions, but

27:33

I am cognizant of your time.

27:35

So I will end with sort

27:37

of our final wrap-up question that

27:39

we always ask everyone. We ask

27:41

everyone a magic wand question. So

27:43

our question to you is if

27:45

you could wave your magic wand

27:47

and create your dream sleep tech.

27:49

So your own wearable that you've

27:51

created, something that doesn't exist yet,

27:53

what would it do? I'm really

27:55

inspired by the idea that with

27:57

the fact that so many millions

27:59

of Americans miss their annual doctors

28:01

visit, you know, don't see their

28:03

health care provider. And I'm very

28:05

inspired by the idea that some

28:07

of these wearable devices could be

28:09

a sleep coach on your finger,

28:11

on your wrist. And I think

28:13

we do have a little bit

28:15

of a ways to go to

28:17

really leverage some of the insights

28:19

that these wearables are providing and

28:21

couple that with evidence based. recommendations

28:23

and support people's sleep. And sleep

28:25

is connected to virtually every aspect

28:27

of our health and well-being. So

28:29

by prioritizing that, I think it

28:31

could do a world of good

28:33

for the health of our nation

28:35

or people, our populations, our communities.

28:37

But right now, sleep does remain

28:39

out of reach for many people.

28:41

We talk about sleep often as

28:43

a health disparity. Sleep is in

28:45

many... ways of luxury good. Individuals

28:47

in lower income communities where there

28:49

are brighter lights, there are louder

28:51

sounds, there is more crime, have

28:53

lower sleep outcomes or worse sleep

28:55

outcomes than to individuals in higher

28:57

economic areas. So I think that

28:59

that's one thing. The other area

29:01

that I am extremely excited about

29:03

is neuromodulation. It's the idea of

29:05

using technology, auditory, etc. to identify

29:07

your brain waves and states and

29:09

deliver some targeted interventions that might

29:11

help improve the quality of the

29:13

rest in the sleep that we

29:15

are able to get. And I

29:17

said, that is the, to me,

29:19

the most exciting area for the

29:21

future, to get some of these

29:23

devices to be really accessible, usable,

29:25

and at a price point that's

29:27

accessible to individuals across different economic

29:29

strata. Well, thank you. This has

29:31

just been absolutely happy. I'm glad

29:33

Shelley wasn't here because he loves

29:35

to drink before he goes to

29:37

sleep. So that would have been

29:39

horrible for him to hear. Thank

29:45

you for listening to the Harvard Data Science Reu

29:47

podcast. To stay updated with all things, HHS-R, you

29:49

can visit our website at HHS, at MIT Press,

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at MIT, at EU, or follow us on X

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29:58

Arian and Frank, Gavin and and Belle Riley.

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