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wanted. This is help wanted.

2:20

The show that makes your work

2:22

work for you. I'm Jason Fyfer,

2:25

editor and chief of Entrepreneur Magazine.

2:27

And I'm money expert Nicole

2:29

Lappin. On Tuesdays, Jason and

2:32

I answer the helpline and

2:34

health callers solve their work.

2:36

And on Thursdays, I give you

2:38

one way to improve your work

2:40

and build a career or company

2:42

you love. And it starts? No.

2:45

Oh. Yeah, Nicole, did you hear about

2:47

the, did you hear about the tariffs

2:49

thing? The what? There was some terra,

2:51

there were some tariffs. How

2:53

do you spell that? T-A-A- And

2:56

then I always forget if it's

2:58

a double R or double F.

3:00

P-A-N-I-C. No? Oh, yes. There was

3:02

some panic going on. There

3:04

was some panic going on. Are

3:06

you panicking? I would be lying

3:09

if I said I wasn't a little

3:11

bit panicking. It's always really tricky

3:13

for me to tell people don't

3:15

panic. You know, this happens all

3:17

the time. There's a small percentage

3:20

of me. I cannot lie. That

3:22

feels... you know, the same thing

3:24

that everybody else does. Like, this

3:26

is going to be different than

3:28

all the previous ones. It's a

3:30

small percentage, but I would be

3:32

lying if I said it wasn't

3:35

there, you know, running a business

3:37

that is largely dependent on

3:39

advertising too and how companies are

3:41

going to change their budgets based on

3:43

what's happening in the market and with

3:45

the uncertainty of tariffs, you know, makes

3:47

me feel a little uncertain too. But

3:50

at the same time, this is a

3:52

really good time for business news.

3:54

That's true. That is

3:56

an upside. Right, fewer

3:59

advertisers. perhaps, but a lot

4:01

of consumers. And maybe that's good. Yeah,

4:03

I mean, I feel the same. I

4:05

obviously don't have a product to sell

4:07

that is being sourced from overseas.

4:09

So I'm not a direct impact, but

4:12

I'm definitely gonna be an indirect

4:14

impact. I think that a lot

4:16

of speaking business is probably gonna

4:18

dry up and sponsorships are probably

4:21

gonna start diminishing. I have started

4:23

to think of. this moment as like

4:25

a cash grab for me like for

4:27

example I'm I'm grabbing opportunities that I

4:29

might have said no to because they

4:31

didn't pay as much or because they

4:33

were more inconvenient because I'm just not

4:35

sure that the opportunities are going to

4:37

be here a couple months from now

4:40

so like I just said yes to

4:42

a speaking gig that doesn't pay exactly

4:44

what I want and the travel is

4:46

like ridiculously inconvenient I didn't really want

4:48

to do it but I also thought

4:50

You know, if things go really south

4:52

in a couple months, I'm going to

4:54

kick myself or having said no to that

4:56

because I would like the money in my

4:58

pocket. So I think I'll just do it.

5:00

And I don't know how healthy that is,

5:02

but that's my very dramatic.

5:04

Yeah, I'm on sale. I'm on sale. I mean, a

5:06

lot of things are on sale, so to speak,

5:09

the stock market. Yeah, if you choose

5:11

to see that the things that you're buying

5:13

today are going to have more value

5:15

tomorrow tomorrow than I guess it is

5:17

for sale. I mean high quality things

5:19

are on sale. I would say

5:22

that you're a high quality thing.

5:24

Appreciate that. High quality investments, definitely

5:26

on sale. You know, I would

5:28

argue though that we always have

5:31

uncertainty. This is kind of a weird one,

5:33

but as a business owner covering

5:35

business, telling people to buy the

5:37

dips, there's obviously businesses on the

5:39

other side of those dips that

5:42

are feeling the pressure. Seriously,

5:44

there's always two sides of the

5:46

trade. But you know, there's always

5:48

uncertainty. I think about Black

5:50

Swan events, which is an

5:53

assumed telebs idea that, you know,

5:55

things that we can never predict

5:57

will happen. 9-11, COVID, tariffs.

5:59

we heard President Trump campaigning

6:02

on. So yes, they were

6:04

more aggressive, but we knew that

6:06

was coming to some extent. There

6:09

are things that we have no

6:11

idea will happen. You know, the

6:13

Russia Ukraine situation also

6:15

led to a lot of

6:17

uncertainty, could not predict that.

6:19

So I would argue the only

6:22

thing that's certain is uncertainty.

6:24

The only thing that doesn't

6:26

change is that there's... always change.

6:28

The thing that you're zeroing in

6:30

on here, which is that word

6:33

uncertainty, something that I've heard kicked

6:35

around a lot, like, you know,

6:37

the analysis for the business market

6:39

is that the greatest challenge here

6:41

isn't necessarily the tariffs, it is

6:43

the uncertainty surrounding them, because if

6:46

the Trump administration just said, these

6:48

are the tariffs, they are not

6:50

changing, then everyone could at least

6:52

adjust to it and say, okay,

6:54

well, then let's start making some

6:57

long-term decisions based on this new

6:59

information. But the problem is that

7:01

nobody feels that there's any

7:03

guarantee that today's situation will also

7:06

be tomorrow situation, which means that

7:08

there's no way to plan for

7:10

it. I mean, to get policy-ish

7:12

just for one second, it completely

7:14

undermines what one of the stated,

7:16

even though the stated, even though

7:19

the... goals of these tariffs continue to be

7:21

changed in the way in which they're stated.

7:23

But one of the stated goals has

7:25

been to drive more manufacturing investment in

7:27

America. But if the tariffs are going

7:30

to be constantly changing, if there's

7:32

a chance that they'll go away, if

7:34

there's a quote unquote deal cut somewhere,

7:36

then like there actually isn't an incentive

7:38

to build any manufacturing, because why would

7:41

you spend the money if you don't

7:43

actually know the environment that you're working

7:45

in? So that's like the larger

7:47

thing, but then you. drill down

7:49

to the individual person, the business

7:51

owner who doesn't know exactly how

7:53

to plan the employee who is not

7:56

sure what the job market is going

7:58

to look like or where the will

8:00

be growth like it's just

8:02

a kind of paralyzing uncertainty

8:04

which deeply frustrating and so

8:06

but I like your point

8:09

there that although this moment

8:11

feels particularly uncertain

8:13

that is not to say as

8:16

if we usually operate in

8:18

certain times we don't things

8:20

are constantly changing and the

8:22

thing that might be most interesting

8:24

about these moments of

8:26

quote-unquote massive uncertainty and

8:28

massive disruption is that

8:30

opportunities and benefits will Will

8:32

reveal themselves in these interesting

8:34

and unexpected ways. I'll just give you

8:37

an example of just like one tiny

8:39

little thing I mean, this is this

8:41

is obviously very small relative to a

8:43

lot of the major things that we

8:46

were just saying but like as an

8:48

example so pilot house, which is this

8:50

great ecom growth agency that I do

8:53

some work with. Pilot House just shared

8:55

this interesting data because they track

8:57

advertising costs online for brands that

8:59

you know want to advertise online.

9:02

They said that CPC, so that's

9:04

cost per click, so the amount

9:06

of money that brands have to

9:08

pay every time somebody clicks on

9:11

a link, has dropped 7% since

9:13

the tariff announcements and CPM's, which

9:15

is that's cost per. Mille or whatever

9:18

in Latin it basically costs per

9:20

thousand impressions. So what advertisers generally

9:22

are paying to advertise on something

9:24

like help wanted for example that

9:26

across the board they have fallen

9:28

18% since the tariff announcements. So

9:30

anyway the point is that advertising

9:33

online just became cheaper presumably because

9:35

so many brands are pulling their

9:37

ad budgets. That that's a really

9:39

good thing for a brand that

9:41

is feeling bold enough to still

9:43

spend money on marketing They can

9:46

now reach more people for cheaper

9:48

because the tariffs have disrupted

9:50

that market and let us

9:52

not Forget that like when

9:54

things are disrupted for you.

9:56

They're disrupted for everybody else

9:58

too and so That will often

10:01

harm large incumbents more because they

10:03

move slower and they have built

10:05

on top of what they feel

10:08

like are certain systems. And so

10:10

when they get shaken incumbents can't

10:12

move as fast and they

10:15

can't respond to needs as

10:17

fast. Smaller scrapier businesses and

10:19

I would argue individuals can,

10:21

once they're, you know, the

10:23

headstop spinning, can. fine, like really

10:26

useful, interesting opportunities for growth, which

10:28

again is also what we saw

10:30

during COVID, where, you know, COVID

10:32

was like, it was a terrible

10:34

disaster, but also it led to like

10:36

tremendous opportunities and growth for interesting,

10:38

you know, business opportunities and careers.

10:41

And so I think that we're

10:43

going to see something similar

10:45

here. It's just that we don't know what

10:47

it looks like yet. So consumer packaged

10:50

goods are probably the most

10:52

deeply affected or we're sort of

10:54

on the front lines of who's

10:57

going to be most affected. So

10:59

there's there's so much question mark

11:01

around what they're even operating with.

11:03

So as you and I are

11:06

recording this, you texted a friend

11:08

who has been dealing with

11:10

tariffs because you're like the

11:12

chief marketing officer of sells

11:15

brands, which includes Chinese laundry

11:17

shoes for anyone who remembers

11:20

their prom shoes, likely

11:22

from Chinese laundry,

11:24

mine were. No, mine were

11:26

not, I don't remember my,

11:28

my prom shoes. Great. Well,

11:30

why do we do it?

11:33

So we're just gonna, she's

11:35

just gonna join our

11:37

conversation here. I'm

11:39

very interested to

11:41

hear what her attitude

11:43

and perspective is. So

11:45

let's bring her in.

11:48

ultimately create moments of

11:50

opportunity, though it is not often

11:52

easy to immediately see that or

11:55

to feel it. But what I

11:57

said was I am especially inspired.

12:00

by people in business who get to

12:02

that problem solving mindset really fast.

12:04

But which is also out of

12:06

necessity, like you have to buckle

12:08

down and just say like, all

12:10

right, well, things seem pretty screwed,

12:12

but we can't just sit around

12:15

saying that we're screwed. So like,

12:17

what is the solution here? What

12:19

is the opportunity? So I'm curious

12:21

to hear from your experience as

12:23

you guys have been processing the

12:25

impact of tariffs. Like just what

12:27

has that conversation been like? How

12:29

how did you go from panic

12:31

to? Okay, let's try to figure

12:34

out some solutions. Yeah, we sit

12:36

directly between the manufacturer and the

12:38

retailer. So we have to figure

12:40

out how to service both sides.

12:42

Luckily, we're a stock first house.

12:44

So we hold a good amount

12:46

of inventory. So this is 1,000%

12:48

an opportunity for us. But it

12:51

does impact the way we're looking

12:53

at bringing in goods for June.

12:55

Normally, we have a June delivery

12:57

and a fall delivery and also

12:59

looking at how we can support.

13:01

are factories which are actually like

13:03

currently shutting down right now because

13:05

they aren't bringing in and ordering

13:07

new materials so wait wait wait

13:10

before you go further let me

13:12

just unpack a couple of those

13:14

things so so when you said

13:16

stock first in other words the

13:18

reason it's an opportunity for you

13:20

is because you're holding a lot

13:22

of inventory so you'll ultimately be

13:24

able to sell that at like

13:27

the regular price while other people's

13:29

products costs are going to go

13:31

up is that right Yeah, that's

13:33

right. We've spent our week essentially

13:35

talking to our retail partners, talking

13:37

to our banks, talking to everyone,

13:39

because we all we do. We

13:41

all have to come together to

13:43

find the best solution and to

13:46

be able to continue to offer

13:48

product to the end consumer that's

13:50

now extremely price sensitive and trying

13:52

to avoid panic. So yeah, because

13:54

we hold that inventory, we're better

13:56

positioned. than most fashion houses and

13:58

it is an opportunity for us.

14:00

Can I can I pull you

14:03

out of the very intelligent way

14:05

that you're talking about this and

14:07

just ask you like as a

14:09

human being did you did you

14:11

like what were you feeling did

14:13

you feel like holy crap was

14:15

it a panic mode because you're

14:17

you're talking in a very like

14:19

clear-headed solutions oriented way. But tell

14:22

me what it was actually like.

14:24

There was absolutely panic. We were

14:26

all in a meeting right when

14:28

the news first hit about the

14:30

tariffs and the everyone as they

14:32

picked up their phones were like,

14:34

oh man, you know, one of

14:36

our sales girls was like, should

14:38

I join only feet? Like, what

14:41

am I going to do? Like,

14:43

is the company, does only feet,

14:45

is that a, Is that an

14:47

only fan segment just for feet?

14:49

Yeah, that's a direct quote. But

14:51

you know, luckily our CEO, Bob

14:53

Goldman, who's our original founder, has

14:55

been in the business for 53

14:58

years. He stood the test of

15:00

time and market fluctuations. And he

15:02

very calmly looked at all of

15:04

us and said, this is an

15:06

opportunity. So the panic that I

15:08

think some companies and people may

15:10

have felt in the room in

15:12

that moment because he was able

15:14

to give such a steadfast, competent

15:17

response in the moment actually really

15:19

helped calm everybody down and then

15:21

we became extremely solutions oriented pretty

15:23

quickly because of his leadership. And

15:25

have you been thinking about how

15:27

to message this to the consumer?

15:29

You know, we're part of... Patow.

15:31

Patow has been on the show

15:34

before and we're in this group

15:36

chat and people have been sharing

15:38

you know. I just got it

15:40

just to explain. So the both

15:42

of you are part of a

15:44

community called Patow which is like

15:46

for CEOs and CMOs basically and

15:48

so you get to be in

15:50

this cool club talking to all

15:53

the cool people. Yes. Okay. Keep

15:55

going. Yeah. The cool nerds on

15:57

on what's app. Patow stands planned

15:59

to take on the world. And

16:01

a lot of CMos are trying

16:03

to figure out how to message.

16:05

this to consumers. Fabletics had, you

16:07

know, a line item already for

16:10

a tariff surcharge. Have you thought

16:12

about how to talk to the

16:14

consumer about this, whether it's on

16:16

social or newsletter or sort of

16:18

bring the consumer into the process?

16:20

Yeah, I'm working on putting together

16:22

a letter that we'll send out

16:24

to all of our retail partners

16:26

because, right, we service retail, retail

16:29

partners and we service direct to

16:31

consumer. And so the way we're...

16:33

communicating with both that falls under

16:35

my umbrella is is the same

16:37

but also different. We're kind of

16:39

approaching it from like a partnership

16:41

perspective, right? Like we want to

16:43

figure out how can we support

16:46

the factories, how can we support

16:48

the retailers, and how can we

16:50

support and not... be put the

16:52

consumers in a price gouging situation.

16:54

You know, FDRA, which is the

16:56

footwear distributors, retailers of America, estimates

16:58

that these tariffs are going to

17:00

cost the consumer an additional $7

17:02

billion annually. Wow. That's scary. That's

17:05

really similar. A lot of billions

17:07

of dollars. And also you guys

17:09

are called Chinese laundry, which is

17:11

not ideal at this moment. Yeah,

17:13

that is a good point. Yeah,

17:16

we have to, we have no

17:18

choice but to embrace it and

17:20

address it head on and look

17:22

at ways to really, you know,

17:25

not have it impact the end

17:27

consumer as best we can while

17:29

still maintaining our margins, while still

17:31

keeping the factories open. And some

17:33

of the ways that we're going

17:35

to do that is continue to

17:38

place orders in the factory, but

17:40

essentially... not bring it into the

17:42

country. But we have to be

17:44

careful about how we do that.

17:46

But we need our factories to

17:49

stay open and we need to

17:51

be able to have goods ready

17:53

to ship once hopefully the tariffs

17:55

are, you know, lifted. But we

17:57

also can't bring any goods in

17:59

at a 145% which is where

18:02

the duties are landing for footwear.

18:04

That is such an interesting moment

18:06

in time, because I'm sure you're

18:08

not the only ones to do

18:10

that, which is to say, so

18:12

you're like, well, it doesn't cost

18:15

us anything more to manufacture today

18:17

than it did last week. The

18:19

cost is when you're actually bringing

18:21

it into the country, so you

18:23

can continue to build it with

18:26

the just expectation that something would

18:28

change in the future. You're taking

18:30

a bet on some kind of

18:32

future stability despite the instability of

18:34

now. Exactly. And in the past,

18:36

China hasn't actually serviced the factories

18:39

and subsidized them when things like

18:41

this have happened. So it puts

18:43

us in a position where we

18:45

essentially have to bet on ourselves

18:47

and own that inventory and let

18:50

production continue. But we are faced

18:52

with a lot of complex challenges

18:54

as we realign our supply chains

18:56

and work to be there. But

18:58

you're trying not to raise prices

19:00

on the end consumer. Yeah and

19:03

if we do we're trying to

19:05

in a really small amount. So

19:07

I feel like Sarah what you

19:09

have told us here aligns really

19:11

well with what Nicole and I've

19:13

been talking about before you showed

19:16

up right which is there is

19:18

a way even in crazy very

19:20

unpredictable situations to to kind of

19:22

lock in on a solution mindset.

19:24

It sounds like To me, what

19:27

I'm hearing you say is like,

19:29

we are going to take as

19:31

a baseline that this is figure

19:33

outable. And we don't know that

19:35

we have all the answers right

19:37

now, but we're gonna start testing

19:40

some hypotheses and we're gonna start

19:42

making some decisions and then we'll

19:44

probably have to adjust along the

19:46

way. But like, that the operating

19:48

thesis here is going to be.

19:51

this can work. And that is

19:53

a very healthy way of thinking

19:55

about it. Do you wake up

19:57

every day actually feeling that right

19:59

now or are you? you just

20:01

able to like get into that

20:04

mode when you need to? That's

20:06

a great question. It's a very

20:08

human question. I am really trying

20:10

to stay extremely focused and just

20:12

compartmentalize the stress from it and

20:15

try to stay solutions oriented. Our

20:17

customer is, we're trend forward accessible

20:19

forward and these tariffs disproportionately affect

20:21

the working class. and family specifically.

20:23

So I think we have our

20:25

responsibility as an organization to find

20:28

solutions for our customers. Yeah, and

20:30

you had, it sounds like a

20:32

bunch of inventory in the US

20:34

and maybe you weren't gonna. do

20:36

anything with it or repackage or

20:38

you know like you can revisit

20:41

that and make something that was

20:43

there that wasn't supposed to be

20:45

a trend. Now is a trend.

20:47

Surprise. Yeah, surprise. I mean, Taylor

20:49

Swift is wearing your guys' shoes.

20:52

So your trend forward, maybe she'll

20:54

wear some shoes that have been

20:56

in a cool factory for a

20:58

minute. Yeah, that's right. And it's

21:00

actually exciting for me because as

21:02

we get to kind of go

21:05

through the on hand inventory that

21:07

we have, that means we get

21:09

to clear out space to bring

21:11

in really fun, new, exciting product

21:13

once we're able to, once the

21:16

terrorist lift and we're able to

21:18

bring new stuff into the country.

21:20

So I'm very excited about that

21:22

part from a marketing perspective. can

21:24

miss Americana go get some of

21:26

those shoes sister well Sarah thanks

21:29

for joining us so much it

21:31

was a pleasure to be here

21:33

stick around help wanted will be

21:35

right back welcome back to help

21:37

wanted let's get to it so

21:39

I think CBG companies are on

21:42

the front lines of who has

21:44

the most uncertainty. It's not a

21:46

competition of uncertainty, but I think

21:48

that they're feeling it the most.

21:50

Yes, I think that's right. Or

21:53

at least you're going to see

21:55

it most directly impact them because

21:57

they're selling a product and they've

21:59

got a source materials and wherever

22:01

that's coming from is now going

22:03

to get really expensive. And so

22:06

I think that they're also really

22:08

good harbinger of what it looks

22:10

like to respond and navigate something

22:12

like this. So I run a.

22:14

I run a company called CPG

22:17

Fast Track which is a private

22:19

network for early stage consumer package

22:21

goods founders. We had a really

22:23

interesting call the day after the

22:25

tariffs were announced in CPG Fast

22:27

Track where a number of our

22:30

members and you know again our

22:32

members are like they're all let's

22:34

just say maybe two million dollars

22:36

in revenue and down like down

22:38

to a very entry level just

22:40

launching in farmers markets kind of

22:43

thing. And so we were talking

22:45

about how this is going to

22:47

impact them. And of course, they

22:49

don't exactly know yet. But we

22:51

had, for example, one of our

22:54

members has a kind of boxed

22:56

wine and was saying that the

22:58

wine comes from a couple different

23:00

countries. And so that's going to

23:02

get really complicated. And the packaging

23:04

comes from, well, like, an American

23:07

middleman, but the American middleman is

23:09

sourcing it from China. So like,

23:11

now that's complicated. So what is

23:13

she supposed to do? So after

23:15

the airing of grievances, as Seinfeld

23:18

would say, we got into this

23:20

really interesting next phase of the

23:22

conversation, where we started to look

23:24

for solutions and things that maybe

23:26

didn't make sense to do in

23:28

a pre-tariff world, but that do

23:31

make sense in a post-tariff world

23:33

and could be of lasting benefit

23:35

to brands. So for example, one

23:37

of our members said... Small brands

23:39

do not benefit from economies of

23:41

scale. purchasing. So like if you're

23:44

a small brand and you're sourcing

23:46

chocolate, you have to pay much

23:48

more for that chocolate than like

23:50

Hershey's does because Hershey's can buy

23:52

it in such bulk that their

23:55

suppliers are going to sell it

23:57

cheaper. That's just basic with the

23:59

Worldworks. And so the member was

24:01

like, but why not have CPG

24:03

small CPG brands now start to

24:05

band together and like... buy together

24:08

and buy in larger quantities together

24:10

and therefore start to reduce our

24:12

costs that way like that's we

24:14

should have been doing that all

24:16

along yeah there was no incentive

24:19

to do it before I mean

24:21

there's a way to think about

24:23

these external moments as a forcing

24:25

function like I've become obsessed with

24:27

that phrase forcing function it means

24:29

the event that compels action and

24:32

I I love the idea of

24:34

something pushing us to make a

24:36

change that's ultimately beneficial for us

24:38

that we wouldn't have done unless

24:40

we were pushed. That's the forcing

24:42

function, right? So in the same

24:45

way that AI is forcing us

24:47

to reconsider some of our processes

24:49

and say, oh, you know what,

24:51

that was actually a deeply inefficient

24:53

way to do that. And now

24:56

I've been pushed to discover a

24:58

better way to do it. you

25:00

could see the tariffs in this

25:02

uncertainty as a forcing function to

25:04

drive us to start exploring options

25:06

that we maybe didn't feel incentivized

25:09

to do before or that it

25:11

just would have seemed crazy like

25:13

it would have seemed crazy for

25:15

a bunch of small brands to

25:17

call each other up and be

25:20

like hey so we're kind of

25:22

in the same space and I

25:24

guess we're competitors but also do

25:26

you want to buy chocolate together

25:28

because that would lower our costs

25:30

that like they just wouldn't have

25:33

been the incentive to do that

25:35

before but now there there is

25:37

And that's because the tariffs are

25:39

a forcing function. And that is

25:41

not to say that I like

25:43

the tariffs. I actually don't. I

25:46

think that these are largely a

25:48

bad idea, but. You've got to

25:50

work with what you've got, and

25:52

if this is the situation, then

25:54

I think it's helpful to think

25:57

this way. Yeah, it's such a

25:59

good idea. I love this idea.

26:01

Is there a marketplace to bring

26:03

people together to share on big

26:05

orders? Think so, but somebody should

26:07

build that too. And be like,

26:10

hey, we're, you know, sourcing yarn

26:12

or whatever. And it's going to

26:14

be more expensive maybe than before,

26:16

but not as expensive. as if

26:18

you were doing it alone. Yeah.

26:21

Maybe she were doing it together.

26:23

That's right. And then, and now

26:25

like, look what you just said

26:27

there. You just went the step

26:29

further, right? Because like the member

26:31

at CPG Fast Track was like,

26:34

the brands should just be banding

26:36

together, but then. You know, you

26:38

were like, well, who's doing that?

26:40

Who's overseeing that? That's a business.

26:42

So now somebody can step up

26:44

and be like, I've got a

26:47

business for now, like a business

26:49

that solves a problem for right

26:51

now. And it's this. I will

26:53

be a matchmaker and facilitator and

26:55

help brands come together, identify like

26:58

overlapping product sourcing needs and then

27:00

connect with the suppliers. I don't

27:02

maybe something like that exists. I

27:04

mean, not that we need. another

27:06

thing to do. But I don't

27:08

feel like that's such a good

27:11

idea. It's a great, it's a

27:13

great business opportunity. Jobs will be

27:15

created. I think it's really helpful

27:17

and constructive to think that way

27:19

and and also exciting because it

27:22

gives you something to do, right?

27:24

Besides worry, which is my favorite,

27:26

it's your favorite cardio. Yeah, yeah,

27:28

because the greatest problem here, going

27:30

back to the thing we were

27:32

talking about with uncertainty, the greatest

27:35

problem is a loss of control.

27:37

that if you could just tell

27:39

me what the situation is then

27:41

I can start to control the

27:43

outcome I can say all right

27:46

well here's what we've got and

27:48

let me start a bit the

27:50

problem is that when things are

27:52

really uncertain you don't feel like

27:54

you're able to take control but

27:56

you got to do something you

27:59

got to do something and And

28:01

so I really, I am always

28:03

inspired by entrepreneurs. And like, if

28:05

you're listening to this and you're

28:07

not identifying as an entrepreneur, you

28:09

don't have a business, like, it

28:12

doesn't matter. Like, this core- Take

28:14

our business idea. Go for it.

28:16

Yeah, that's right. Go, go, go,

28:18

go run it. We'll expect royalties.

28:20

Thank you. just deep into the

28:23

entrepreneurial mindset that I think I

28:25

think anybody anybody can adopt. I

28:27

mean like even if you're an

28:29

employee at a company, if you

28:31

know that the the company is

28:33

going to be impacted by these

28:36

tariffs, what solutions can you start

28:38

building right now instead of like

28:40

hiding under the desk waiting for

28:42

the ceiling to collapse on top

28:44

of you? Like what can you

28:47

do now to either? develop some

28:49

cost savings for the company, identify

28:51

some new opportunities for the company,

28:53

you become more singularly valuable, the

28:55

more in which you are thinking

28:57

about how to solve the most

29:00

present problems. Yeah, but also realizing

29:02

that it feels like more urgent

29:04

now because of so much coverage,

29:06

but at the same time there's

29:08

so much uncertainty around how AI

29:10

is going to. you know, disrupt

29:13

everything and being valuable around that

29:15

is something that you can also

29:17

do. Then you could have some

29:19

crazy black swan event like tomorrow.

29:21

Then we changed the conversation. And

29:24

so I think that this could

29:26

be an opportunity to create a

29:28

solution in a zeitgeist problem, but

29:30

there's also always potential problems that

29:32

you can. find solutions for even

29:34

being an entrepreneur. Like sort of

29:37

entrepreneurial vibe within a bigger company.

29:39

Yeah. Have I ever told you

29:41

about my conversation years ago with

29:43

Jason Robbins, the founder of Draft

29:45

Kings? No, but great name. Great

29:48

name. Jason. Tell me. I love

29:50

a good Jason. How were the

29:52

Jason's talking? Well, so the Jason,

29:54

yes, we were talking at our

29:56

annual convening of the Jason's. Jason's

29:58

from worldwide, get together, and we

30:01

all Jason. Jason Robbins and I

30:03

were talking. And this is years

30:05

and years ago. So Draft Kings,

30:07

as you probably know, is one

30:09

of the leading brands in the

30:11

sports betting space. I don't know

30:14

that they call themselves sports betting,

30:16

but I mean, that's what they

30:18

are. Well, they probably have to,

30:20

yeah. They probably have to stop

30:22

them that. Legal reason for them

30:25

to use some other, but maybe,

30:27

I don't know, whatever. Anyway, they're

30:29

a bunch of sports betters. And

30:31

when they first hit market many

30:33

years ago, they were really operating.

30:35

in a loophole and I can't

30:38

remember the technical details but you

30:40

know like there was no sports

30:42

betting was not allowed unless you

30:44

were like in a casino in

30:46

Vegas and then suddenly you could

30:49

download draft kings and like have

30:51

a bookie yeah bet on yeah

30:53

have a bookie and like you

30:55

could bet on fantasy sports this

30:57

was because of some there was

30:59

some legal loophole that they were

31:02

exploiting and then the attorneys general

31:04

of New York and Massachusetts started

31:06

to investigate and we're talking about

31:08

changing the law to put this

31:10

company out of business and you

31:12

know this company and the others

31:15

like this couple others. So what

31:17

I wanted to know from Jason

31:19

was what was it like to

31:21

face a existential threat for your

31:23

business? Like this isn't like oh

31:26

there's a problem that our chocolate

31:28

became too expensive we got to

31:30

figure that. This is like We

31:32

could get we could get legaled

31:34

out of existence. here. And what

31:36

do you do? What do you

31:39

do when you face a threat,

31:41

a change, that big? And I

31:43

loved his answer. What he told

31:45

me was, he's like, look, all

31:47

problems are just problems. They're just

31:50

problems. And therefore, all problems have

31:52

some kind of solution. And the

31:54

way to just understand it is

31:56

to just start... breaking it down

31:58

into a series of steps. Like

32:00

no problem is, it like operates

32:03

from some kind of different plane

32:05

of existence. So problems aren't coming

32:07

from like. other dimensions where you

32:09

just don't even know how to

32:11

approach it. This is just a

32:13

problem. So we got to figure

32:16

out what are the steps to

32:18

solve this problem. And so he's

32:20

like, my anxiety is like bubbling

32:22

over this. This feels like such

32:24

a, this feels like such a

32:27

answer from a human that's never

32:29

experienced crippling anxiety, but continue. Yeah,

32:31

very admirable. Yeah. I mean, I

32:33

want you to emote your way

32:35

through this answer. So he said,

32:37

well, the first thing that we

32:40

realized was that. we are not

32:42

a part of this conversation at

32:44

all. Like we never thought to

32:46

even engage government because we were

32:48

just building this thing. So like

32:51

we don't have, I don't even

32:53

know how to call the Attorney

32:55

General or anyone who works with

32:57

the Attorney General. Like I have

32:59

nothing. So the first step is

33:01

we've got to start the conversation.

33:04

We've got to be involved in

33:06

the conversation. So it's like, okay,

33:08

well then how do we do

33:10

that? Next thing we need is

33:12

we need people who know these

33:14

people so you know then you

33:17

go and hire you hire some

33:19

lobbyists basically and some like policy

33:21

experts and then they start the

33:23

conversation and so now you're engaging

33:25

with the attorneys general and then

33:28

the next thing is we can't

33:30

sit around and wait for the

33:32

attorneys general to just propose their

33:34

own ideas like we need to

33:36

be a part of shaping it

33:38

so why don't we understand what

33:41

their concerns are and then come

33:43

to them with our version of

33:45

a solution, which is not to

33:47

say that they're going to adopt

33:49

that, but now at least they're

33:52

seeing that we hear them and

33:54

that we see them and that

33:56

we want to acknowledge that and

33:58

build it in. And you just

34:00

step it out and then we

34:02

do this and then we do

34:05

this and then we do this.

34:07

And in the end, some laws

34:09

are passed that changed something about

34:11

how these businesses operated, like draft

34:13

kings, but allow draft kings to

34:15

continue to grow and to bring

34:18

it back to the word of

34:20

the day here to do so

34:22

with less uncertainty. Because now draft

34:24

King's knows exactly what the rules

34:26

are and it can start to

34:29

operate. And they could be bad.

34:31

Yeah, and they could be not

34:33

beneficial to them. They could be

34:35

rules that like limited some part

34:37

of the way in which this

34:39

company operates. But like now that

34:42

they know what it is, they

34:44

can work from it and around

34:46

it. And I really loved that

34:48

answer because it it just reminds

34:50

you that every problem is actually

34:53

just a checklist waiting to be

34:55

written. That's it. It's just a

34:57

checklist waiting to be written, right?

34:59

I mean, tell me where your

35:01

anxiety is taking you, but like

35:03

you just went... through and are

35:06

still going through a very massive

35:08

problem. And not to diminish it

35:10

at all, but like what is

35:12

it? It is a it is

35:14

a checklist. Like you have a

35:17

million things to do and it's

35:19

awful and it's like a crappy

35:21

checklist. It's like the world's worst

35:23

checklist. But that's the thing to

35:25

do next, right? Is just like

35:27

figure out what the next steps

35:30

are and then execute them one

35:32

by one by one by one.

35:34

And the more in which you

35:36

can draft out that checklist, the

35:38

more in which you have an

35:40

you have an write the checklist

35:43

and therefore you don't have any

35:45

idea what the next step is

35:47

and then you're paralyzed. Yeah, you

35:49

haven't made sense of it. I

35:51

think that if you create a

35:54

cohesive narrative for your problems or

35:56

uncertainty, you're more likely to get

35:58

out of it instead of being

36:00

in like the spin cycle, you

36:02

know, just ruminating and and worrying

36:04

because what is missing from that

36:07

while I love like the go

36:09

get it hustle culture vibe. That's

36:11

how we Jason's like to roll.

36:13

That's what we talk about at

36:15

the Jason conference. It's a little,

36:18

you know, it's a little devoid

36:20

too of like, you know, what's

36:22

behind this uncertainty? Can I take

36:24

care of my family? Can I

36:26

feed my daughter? Sort of steps

36:28

on these lower rungs of Maslow's

36:31

hierarchy of needs and rightly or

36:33

wrongly, but when you're facing these

36:35

big existential issues. Sometimes you feel,

36:37

I have felt, inertia or just

36:39

fear and crippling fear before you

36:41

can sort of spring into action.

36:44

So I think we're in some

36:46

of that purgatory zone right now

36:48

on a macro level. Like maybe

36:50

action will spring next week. Something

36:52

will spring. But yeah, we're still

36:55

kind of, I think, collectively trying

36:57

to exhale. And that's okay. We

36:59

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37:01

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37:03

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37:05

Jason Fyfer. And me, Nicole Lappin.

37:08

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37:10

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