0:00

This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta.

0:03

In 1863, a terrible plague

0:05

descended on the famed vineyards

0:08

of France. Tiny

0:10

sap-sucking insects attacked the roots

0:12

and leaves of grapevines. The

0:16

pests destroyed thousands of acres. What

0:21

turned the problem into a calamity was

0:24

that French vineyards were mainly planted

0:26

with a monoculture. A

0:28

single species of grape that had

0:31

little natural resistance to the insect

0:33

hordes. It

0:35

turns out that there are other kinds of

0:38

species, for example in the US, that were

0:40

not so affected, that developed natural resistance to

0:42

that pest. But that was not

0:44

the case of the French vineyard. This

0:48

is researcher Jourdy Quodbach. He

0:50

said the destruction continued for years and

0:52

threatened the very existence of the French

0:54

wine industry. Eventually

0:57

though, French winemakers found a solution,

1:01

adding diversity to the grapevines under

1:03

cultivation. They

1:07

started grafting their native vines onto

1:09

American plants, which had evolved to

1:11

resist the insects. By

1:14

increasing the biological variety of the plants,

1:17

the French wine industry rose again. The

1:22

The To

1:24

me, the takeaway of this story

1:27

is that by introducing more diversity,

1:31

you're actually making your environment more

1:33

resilient and more likely

1:35

to succeed in the long run. Today,

1:49

we extend this idea from ecology

1:51

to the world of psychology. Specifically,

1:54

we examine the effects of having

1:56

a variety of emotions in our

1:59

daily lives. This

2:04

episode is part of our Emotions 2.0

2:07

series. We've previously explored

2:09

the power of collective emotions, the

2:11

complicated psychology of pride, and the

2:14

benefits of mixed emotions. If

2:17

you missed any of those episodes, please listen to

2:19

them in this podcast feed. This

2:25

week on Hidden Brain, many of us go to great

2:27

lengths to be happy, reading books,

2:30

devouring podcasts, even joining

2:32

cults that promise to set us on

2:34

the path to joy and fulfillment. But

2:37

is our singular focus on positive

2:39

emotions actually good for us? Or

2:41

does it set us up for

2:44

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roberthalf.com today. Look

4:30

on the bright side. Accentuate the

4:32

positive. See the glass as

4:34

half full, not half empty. From

4:37

billboard signs to t-shirts with inspirational

4:39

messages, our culture has many ways

4:41

of telling us to banish negative

4:44

emotions from our lives. At

4:47

one level, this makes perfect sense. Being

4:50

sad and upset are unpleasant feelings.

4:52

As humans, we are wired to

4:55

seek the pleasant and avoid the

4:57

unpleasant. At

4:59

the Asadi Business and Law School

5:01

in Barcelona, Spain, psychologist Jordi Quadbach

5:03

has spent many years studying what

5:05

happens when we try to live

5:07

in an emotional monoculture. Jordi

5:10

Quadbach, welcome to Hidden Brain. Thank

5:13

you, Shankar. It's a pleasure to be here. A

5:17

number of years ago, Jordi, you

5:19

were hit with some powerful emotions around

5:21

the time that you and your wife

5:23

were starting a family. I understand that

5:25

you had long wanted to be a

5:27

dad? Yeah,

5:30

my partner, she got pregnant

5:32

and we were both excited about it and

5:35

sadly, you know, around three

5:37

months, she had a miscarriage.

5:41

So we were both devastated by the news,

5:45

but at the same time, it turns

5:47

out that on the following day, we

5:50

had been in invited to visit close

5:52

friends of ours that just had a

5:54

baby and so we were invited to meet the baby and

5:57

have dinner with them. I'm

6:00

wondering if you can describe for me what that

6:02

evening was like when you went over.

6:04

You're carrying this very heavy news in

6:06

your own hearts, but you're also there

6:08

to celebrate a very happy moment in

6:10

the lives of your friends. What was

6:12

that like that evening? It

6:16

was very difficult because, I mean, we had

6:18

just lost maybe not a baby,

6:20

but at least the prospect of a

6:22

baby, and we're there to celebrate their

6:24

newborn. And so we didn't want

6:27

to ruin their fun and their joy. And

6:30

so we just tried

6:32

very hard to change our emotions and to

6:34

be excited for them. I'm

6:43

wondering, did you bring up at all with your

6:45

friends what had happened to you and your partner?

6:48

So we didn't bring it up. We felt

6:51

that bringing this sad story on

6:54

a happy day for them would just

6:58

thought that it would ruin the mood. I

7:01

think we did a really good

7:04

job at suppressing these emotions to try

7:06

to be excited for our friends. And

7:09

that took a toll. And

7:13

I'm assuming you were actually genuinely happy

7:15

for your friends. I mean, that was also true. I

7:17

mean, you must have been very happy that your friends

7:19

had this newborn in their lives. Yeah,

7:22

we were very excited. And then the

7:24

newborn was absolutely cute and delightful. It's

7:26

hard not to feel warm, fuzzy feelings

7:28

when you have a newborn in your

7:30

home. So it was so

7:33

paradoxical what we were experiencing.

7:41

Jordy noticed that as he and his partner

7:43

suppressed their feelings, it changed the way they

7:46

behaved. I think it

7:48

prevented us from being fully present

7:50

that evening. Every

7:53

time a negative thought would

7:55

pop into my head, I would need to

7:58

step out of the present moment. and

8:01

exert some mental effort to ball

8:03

it down. So it was definitely like

8:05

a short term, sort of negative

8:08

effect of suppressing or sadness

8:11

sorrow. But I think there

8:13

was also longer term consequences

8:15

of that because it turns out that

8:17

on the following day, again, we could

8:19

not fully experience our sadness because

8:21

we had this trip planned to Japan with

8:24

a group of friends. And everybody was

8:26

super excited to go to Japan and we didn't

8:28

want to ruin the fun again for

8:31

everyone. So we did not share that

8:33

experience. And we went on a two

8:35

week vacation and we

8:39

didn't talk about what happened for

8:41

two weeks. So

8:44

you didn't tell the friends that you were on vacation with

8:47

what had happened? So

8:49

we didn't tell them what had happened,

8:51

but they also didn't almost talk about

8:54

the event between ourselves, me and my

8:56

partner. It's like we're

8:58

just trying to ignore our

9:00

feelings so that we could enjoy

9:03

our vacation. And

9:05

I recall that during the trip,

9:08

the mood between me and my partner was

9:11

not that great. So we were able

9:13

to sort of to showcase your friends,

9:15

excitement and for the Japanese adventures. But

9:18

we had a lot of like tiny

9:20

little conflicts and passive

9:22

aggressive interaction during the trip.

9:26

And in the following month, we

9:28

didn't talk about having another

9:30

shot at having a baby. It's

9:34

almost like because we did not allow

9:36

ourselves to experience the emotions. And

9:39

in a way that was now maybe too late

9:41

to have these emotions, it was a month later,

9:44

we couldn't fully process the event. And I think

9:46

it took me and her

9:49

probably three, four months before

9:52

we started talking about it. So

10:07

more recently, Jordi, a friend of yours

10:10

came to you with some painful feelings

10:12

of his own. Can you tell me

10:14

what he was distressed about? He

10:18

has a good friend of mine who had

10:20

moved out of love for his girlfriend

10:22

to Spain and had

10:24

a recent kid, a newborn, got

10:27

dumped out of the blue. And

10:29

he didn't really know why his

10:32

partner left him. He

10:35

was suspecting that she had met someone else.

10:38

That was sort of the only thing that made

10:40

sense for him. And so he was very suspicious,

10:42

very jealous. And he talked

10:44

about his suspicion and

10:46

sort of jealousy in

10:48

great length. My

10:51

reaction was sadly the typical

10:53

sort of bro reaction, trying

10:56

to say, like, look, you know, it's

10:58

probably not a big deal. She'll

11:00

probably be back. Don't worry about it.

11:02

Don't stress about it. There's no reason to be jealous

11:04

and so forth. And I even

11:07

sort of caught myself pulling my phone

11:10

and showing my friend this brand new

11:12

dating app that my students were talking

11:14

about, right? Trying to say, hey, planet

11:16

fishing the sea. And

11:19

that instead of hit me. I

11:21

was not at all listening to

11:23

his emotions. And

11:26

I was trying to provide solutions that

11:28

he didn't ask before. And

11:32

I'm wondering, Jordi, if you can just articulate

11:34

what you were trying to do for your friend

11:36

when you were trying to turn him out of

11:38

this blue mood and turn him

11:41

to more cheerful thoughts. What were you trying to

11:43

do? I

11:45

was naturally trying to make him

11:47

feel better. I thought that if

11:50

he could just ignore his jealousy,

11:52

rationalize his jealousy away and look

11:55

at the bright side, you know, all the

11:57

potential mates out there for him. that

12:00

would make him feel better and solve the

12:02

situation. I'm

12:12

wondering, did that have the same effect on him that you

12:14

thought it was gonna have? It

12:17

didn't. I

12:20

think he might've gotten

12:22

frustrated and he came back

12:24

repeating the same suspicion, the

12:26

same jealousy and so forth.

12:29

So I don't think we were really connecting

12:31

to each other. So

12:34

this makes me think about the 2004 movie, Eternal

12:37

Sunshine of the Sparkless Mind.

12:40

That movie also wrestles with similar

12:42

themes. In the movie, a

12:45

character named Joel, who's played by

12:47

Jim Carrey, is consumed by painful

12:49

emotions after breaking up with his

12:51

girlfriend Clementine, who's played by Kate

12:53

Winslet. That's when he hears

12:55

a doctor describe a potential treatment

12:57

for his grief. Why

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13:21

Joel goes through with the procedure and

13:23

I think a lot of people watching

13:26

the movie might imagine that they too

13:28

would choose to erase painful memories if

13:30

they had the choice. Why

13:32

do you think this fictional scenario is so

13:34

compelling to us, Jodi? Yeah,

13:37

I love the premise of the movie because it really

13:40

resonates with the natural tendency we have,

13:42

which is to avoid emotional pain, right?

13:45

And this is a very extreme version of

13:47

it, but I think in everyday life,

13:50

we do this kind of procedure

13:52

all the time. We drink sometimes

13:55

too much because we don't wanna feel

13:57

anxiety or sadness. We

14:01

avoid asking for a raise, even

14:03

though we should probably

14:05

ask for it because we don't want

14:07

to experience fear. And so there's many,

14:09

many ways in which we avoid

14:13

experiencing unpleasant emotions. And at the end

14:15

of the day, I think this

14:17

avoidance creates even more problems.

14:24

You raised a really interesting point just now, Jordi,

14:26

which is that we all in

14:28

some ways have our own internal surgical techniques

14:30

to remove these unpleasant emotions. We're

14:32

not using scalpel and lasers, but we

14:35

have these mechanisms to push these unpleasant

14:37

feelings away. We

14:39

do. And I think, you know,

14:41

most of the time, that's a healthy

14:43

way to deal with unpleasant feelings. Right.

14:45

So if I'm stressed before an

14:48

interview with you, Shankar, I might

14:50

watch a movie to sort

14:53

of distract myself from these unpleasant feelings.

14:55

And it's probably adaptive. I think the

14:57

problem is when we

14:59

chronically start avoiding unpleasant

15:01

feelings. As

15:04

I said, you know, it could be by

15:06

drinking, it would be by avoiding situations altogether.

15:10

And that's where you start to see that the

15:12

avoidance, experiential avoidance as

15:14

therapists call it, starts

15:16

to create even bigger problems than

15:19

the emotion itself. Jordi

15:29

and his partner thought the best thing to do

15:31

with their sadness was to push it away. When

15:34

a friend brought painful feelings to Jordi, he thought

15:36

the way to help was to highlight the positive.

15:39

The characters in Eternal Sunshine of the

15:42

Spotless Mind went so far as to

15:44

completely erase negative emotions from their memories.

15:52

When we come back, the value

15:54

of what psychologists call emotional diversity.

15:57

You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar

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Dutt. Vedanta. Support

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t-mobile.com/now. This

17:51

is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. Given

17:57

the choice, most of us would rather feel

17:59

good then feel bad. But

18:01

could there be a reason to invite in all

18:03

kinds of emotions into our lives? At

18:07

a Sade Business and Law School

18:09

in Barcelona, Spain, psychologist Jordi Quodback

18:11

studies what happens when we stop

18:13

trying to keep unhappiness from entering

18:16

our lives. Jordi,

18:19

farmers and ecologists have long known

18:21

about the value of biodiversity in

18:23

nature. I understand that you have

18:25

borrowed this concept from biology and

18:27

applied it to the study of

18:29

human emotion. Tell me about the

18:32

idea of emotional diversity. So

18:35

emotional diversity or emo diversity as we

18:37

call it is the

18:39

richness and relative abundance of the

18:42

emotions that we experience every day.

18:45

And this really comes

18:47

from researching biology and ecology

18:50

showing that more diverse

18:54

environments, both in terms of

18:56

how many different kinds of species

18:58

there is, but also how evenly

19:00

distributed these species are in the

19:02

environment, tend to be more resilient.

19:05

So I started looking at

19:08

the way we could capture this

19:10

diversity and this idea of richness

19:12

and balance of emotion. And

19:14

it turns out that there are thousands

19:16

of papers in ecology that do

19:18

that. And the formulas and models

19:20

to capture biodiversity,

19:23

which you can apply to emotions. You

19:25

can see how

19:28

many emotions or what is

19:30

the intensity of the

19:32

most dominant emotions in

19:34

a person's life. Are

19:37

people experiencing a wide range of

19:39

emotions or is their

19:41

experience concentrated on a couple feelings?

19:45

I'm fascinated by the idea that you're

19:47

not just using the metaphor of

19:50

biological diversity. You're actually borrowing

19:52

from the science of biological

19:54

diversity here. Yeah,

19:57

we borrowed the tools of ecologists.

20:00

actually many different ways to

20:02

compute diversity and some ecologists

20:04

would focus on richness. That

20:06

is, how many different

20:08

types of species can I encounter

20:10

when I sample a forest for

20:12

two days? And

20:24

that could be, you know, the number of

20:26

distinct emotions that a person

20:29

experiences. Other ecologists might

20:31

be more concerned about the relative balance

20:33

or abundance of emotions, right? It

20:35

doesn't matter if there's like 10 different species, if 95%

20:38

of the individuals in the ecosystem

20:42

are from one species in particular.

20:49

And so you can start looking at these two

20:51

facets of diversity, and I think

20:53

that leads to also interesting insights when it comes to

20:55

our emotional life. So

21:03

you and your colleagues have used

21:05

these measures to study a large

21:07

number of volunteers, and you find

21:09

that having a greater range of

21:11

emotions can produce tangible effects. What

21:14

is the effect of emotional diversity

21:16

or emo diversity on physical health,

21:18

Jordi? So we got

21:20

access to the Belgian Social Security data,

21:23

and it turns out that every year

21:25

the Belgian government sends a survey asking

21:28

people all kinds of questions about

21:30

their health habits, their

21:33

medical consumption, and so forth, and they

21:35

also included a measure of emotions. And

21:37

what we found was that, you

21:40

know, beyond the average level

21:42

of positive or negative

21:44

emotions that people experience, the

21:47

richness and sort of the

21:49

evenness of their emotional

21:51

lives also predicted their

21:54

health. And in particular,

21:56

we found very tangible relationships

21:59

between... between emo diversity

22:02

and often people

22:04

went to the doctor. The

22:07

average consumption of drugs

22:09

and prescriptions that they had that

22:11

year. The number of days

22:13

they spent at the hospital. So this

22:15

was not self-reported health. This was data

22:18

that was quantified by the insurance company

22:20

in the Belgian government. I

22:23

understand, Jory, that your research has examined

22:26

the effects of emotional diversity on mental

22:28

health. What have you found? So

22:31

for mental health, we found similar effects. We

22:33

find that people with more diverse emotional lives

22:36

tend to report lower levels of

22:39

depression. One thing that really surprised

22:41

us in the results is that

22:43

it's not only experiencing a broad

22:45

range of positive emotions, but

22:48

it was also the case for negative emotions alone.

22:51

So negative

22:53

emotion diversity was also a

22:57

predictor of mental health. In

22:59

other words, imagine that you experienced

23:01

like three hours of negative emotions

23:03

this week. Well, it seems

23:05

that it might be better off for you to

23:08

experience one hour of sadness, one

23:10

hour of anxiety, and one hour of

23:13

anger, than three hours of

23:15

one of this emotion alone, right? Three hours

23:17

of sadness or three hours of anger only.

23:21

Besides these effects on physical and mental

23:24

health, you've also examined how the experience

23:26

of emotional diversity shapes

23:28

how people make decisions. Tell

23:31

me about this research, that's fascinating. This

23:34

is very recent work from my lab,

23:36

and we find that people experience greater

23:38

emotion diversity tend to make better decisions.

23:40

So for example, if you recruit participants,

23:43

and we asked them to report

23:46

a current choice that they were facing, a

23:48

decision they needed to make in the next

23:50

couple days. And people wrote

23:52

about all kinds of things from what

23:54

elective to choose, to their choice of

23:56

roommate, their choice of romantic partners, and

23:59

so forth. And then in one condition,

24:01

we said, what's the main emotion that

24:03

you're experiencing here? And give

24:06

us three reasons why you feel that way. In

24:09

the other condition, the high-emodiversity condition, you said

24:11

like, what are three

24:13

distinct emotions that you experience while

24:16

considering this decision? And

24:18

then we let them be for two weeks and

24:20

we call them back. And we say, what did

24:22

you end up deciding and how satisfied

24:24

are you with your decision? People

24:27

we had asked to contemplate many emotions

24:30

were actually more satisfied with what they

24:32

ended up choosing. And

24:34

it's not only personal choices. We've

24:36

replicated these findings with objective measures

24:39

of decision-making quality. So you can

24:41

see how biased they are in

24:43

terms of confirmation bias. And

24:46

it turns out that when people are

24:48

asked to write down three

24:50

distinct emotions that they feel when

24:53

considering the decision, they end up

24:55

being less biased. And

24:57

we also find that people who

25:00

have, you know, higher-emodiversity

25:06

tend to be more satisfied with

25:08

their lives, also suggesting that they might

25:11

be making better choices. I'd

25:25

like to look at some of the reasons

25:27

why emotional diversity might have these benefits. In

25:30

nature, Jordi, in ecology,

25:32

we know that diverse environments are

25:34

a source of resilience. Do we

25:36

find the same thing in our

25:39

psychological lives? That's

25:41

one intriguing possibility, right? It could

25:44

be that having a

25:46

diverse emotional life prevents

25:49

one single emotion from dominating our

25:51

mental life, right? So if you're

25:54

feeling sad and angry, it

25:57

might be less pleasant. But

26:01

that anger might prevent you

26:03

from spiraling down into inaction

26:05

and depression. And I think

26:08

the same analogy goes maybe for positive

26:10

emotions, right? So we know that we're

26:13

extremely prone to adapt to positive things

26:15

that happen into our lives. But

26:17

if our positive emotions are diverse,

26:20

you go on that vacation and

26:22

you experience, you know, gratitude and

26:24

amusement and awe and all kinds

26:26

of positive feelings and love. This

26:29

might also make it more resilient to the

26:32

donic adaptation of emotions. So

26:43

in other words, if you're having a range of

26:45

different positive emotions, you're less likely to get used

26:47

to any one of those positive emotions. And if

26:50

you're having presumably a mix of positive and negative

26:52

emotions, you know, your plane is

26:54

delayed and that's a source of frustration. But

26:56

when you get to your destination, it's really

26:58

awe-inspiring. The fact that you are stuck on

27:01

the plane on the tarmac for three hours

27:03

now makes the mountain even more beautiful because

27:05

you had to pay a price to actually

27:07

get there. That's exactly the

27:10

idea. And interestingly, we're doing some

27:12

field research right now with high-end

27:15

restaurants in Norway. And

27:17

we're experimenting with inducing emotions

27:19

during the meal. So

27:21

this is a crazy restaurant where they have

27:23

a planetarium dome-like ceiling.

27:25

And so you can project

27:29

movies that induce some

27:31

sort of emotions while people are having

27:33

dinner. Just to give you

27:35

an example, you might eat chicken sewers and

27:38

at the same time they're projecting a chicken

27:40

slaughter factory, which is, you know, very disturbing.

27:42

And what we find was that if all

27:44

the sceneries and videos are pleasant, people have

27:47

a great meal, but

27:49

they're much less likely to sort of

27:51

remember it and talk about it and

27:53

want to repeat the experience, that if

27:55

we inject negative emotions into

27:57

the experience and like a disgusting ceiling. in

28:00

a seven

28:02

or eight course meal. I

28:04

mean, in some ways there's a connection here

28:07

almost with cuisine itself, right? So imagine a

28:09

dish that has only salt in it or

28:11

a dish that has only pepper in it.

28:13

That's gonna be a much more boring dish

28:16

than a dish in fact that has a

28:18

variety of different tastes in it. And in

28:20

some ways it makes sense that a range

28:23

of different emotions actually as we're eating can

28:25

actually heighten the richness of our meals. Absolutely.

28:29

Variety is the spice of life, as

28:31

they say. What's

28:41

the connection between emotional diversity

28:43

and authenticity, Jordi? Yeah,

28:47

another possibility is that emo

28:50

diversity is almost like a byproduct

28:54

of adaptive personality traits.

28:56

So people are open

28:58

to experience, they're open to

29:00

feelings, they're authentic,

29:04

they have some sort of self-awareness of

29:06

what's going on in their lives might

29:08

be more keen on reporting a broader

29:10

range of emotions. That's

29:13

interesting, but to me, that

29:15

doesn't fully explain why

29:17

when we get people to think

29:20

about different emotions that they're experiencing

29:22

in a situation, we see effects

29:24

on their decision-making and they're making

29:26

better decisions. So another

29:30

possibility, and

29:32

that's my personal maybe favorite,

29:36

is that emotions are messengers.

29:39

Emotions really

29:42

are information about what's going on

29:44

in our lives and what we should do

29:47

next. And by

29:49

experiencing a broader range of emotion,

29:51

we have more flexibility in

29:53

choosing what to do next. And we choose

29:56

wiser. So to

29:58

give you an example, right? If I'm

30:02

feeling extremely proud of myself, I

30:04

just achieve something at work. Pride

30:07

might motivate me to work even harder,

30:09

to take on a new project, to

30:12

achieve even more. If I'm

30:14

feeling grateful, that might be the opposite, right?

30:17

When I give credit to other people, and my

30:19

gratitude might motivate me to express

30:21

my thanks to other people. In

30:24

both cases, if I only

30:26

have one emotion, I might work myself too

30:28

hard and exhaust myself down the line, or

30:31

I might always sort of put myself

30:33

in the background, never take a chance

30:35

to maybe take

30:38

the lead on a project and take credit for

30:40

the work that I do. But if I experience

30:42

the two, my

30:44

response might be more adapted and flexible,

30:46

right? I might take on new challenges

30:48

while acknowledging the team, if you see

30:51

what I mean. I

31:05

mean, I love the metaphor of emotions

31:08

as messengers, Jordi. And I'm thinking about

31:10

somebody who might be a president or

31:12

a prime minister, and you're sitting in

31:14

your office, and messengers are coming

31:17

to you from different parts of your country

31:19

with messages about what's happening in your country.

31:21

But you're the kind of president or prime

31:23

minister who doesn't want to hear negative news.

31:25

And so you kill all of those messengers,

31:27

and you only listen to the people who

31:29

are telling you how great everything is, that

31:31

can make you feel good in the present,

31:34

but it has a real risk, because at

31:36

this point now, you're completely blindsided to any

31:38

problems that you're having in your country, and

31:40

that might make your reign somewhat short-lived. That's

31:44

an excellent analogy, and I want to take it one

31:46

step further. So it's not only

31:48

just like listening to the positive news and

31:50

not the negative messenger, but it's

31:52

also, are you always listening to the

31:54

same messenger among the ones

31:56

that bring you positive news, or are you

31:59

listening to everything? one. Jordi,

32:02

you also say that another reason

32:04

emotional diversity might be beneficial is

32:06

that well-differentiated emotional states can give

32:08

us more precise information about the

32:10

world. What do you mean by

32:13

this? Well,

32:15

imagine that, you know, something bad happens,

32:18

maybe at work, a colleague

32:20

made a comment and you're not feeling

32:23

great about it. If you're just

32:25

feeling bad, it doesn't

32:28

really tell you much about how you should react,

32:30

right? But if you pause and

32:32

you ask yourself, okay, I'm feeling bad, but how

32:35

bad? Like, what is it? Am

32:37

I irritated? Am I, you know,

32:39

sad? Am I envious

32:42

of that colleague? Like, what is it? No,

32:45

depending on the answer and the specific

32:47

feeling, you have options

32:49

to respond. If it's frustration,

32:52

you might confront the person.

32:55

If it's sadness, you might do something

32:57

that tears you up, you know, you

33:00

have more flexibility. I

33:02

mean, and it's interesting, I think, when we

33:04

talk about our emotions, we often have this

33:06

tendency to lump all of the

33:09

positive emotions and all of the negative emotions

33:11

into one bucket. You know, someone asks

33:13

you how you're doing, you say, I feel great, or you

33:15

say, you know, I'm not feeling great. And

33:17

of course, what you lose with that is that

33:19

you're actually collapsing probably a dozen

33:21

different emotions into one bucket without actually

33:24

looking to see what specific messages am

33:26

I getting from the different emotions. Absolutely.

33:29

I mean, take fear and anger.

33:31

They've been studied quite a bit

33:33

in judgment and decision making. They've

33:36

opposite effect on, or tendencies

33:38

to act, right? So if

33:41

you're experiencing fear, you might be more

33:43

risk averse. You

33:46

are more cautious in your estimate. If

33:49

you're experiencing anger, you tend to take

33:51

more risk. You tend to be more

33:53

confident in your judgment. So

33:56

they're both unpleasant emotions, but they're

33:58

completely different. action tendencies. And I

34:00

think by being able to sort

34:03

of explore was

34:05

a lot of precision, what we're

34:07

experiencing, we know

34:09

have a better, we have better material

34:12

to make a decision. Our

34:18

emotions aren't just there to be felt. The

34:21

reasons we have emotions in the first place is

34:23

that they are designed to shape our behavior. When

34:28

we come back, how to use emotions, both good

34:30

and bad, to help us move to what we

34:32

most want in life. You're

34:37

listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta.

34:52

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35:54

What comes to mind when

35:56

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35:59

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36:01

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36:03

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36:56

This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. When

37:00

someone comes to you with a tale of woe and

37:02

wants to share why they are sad, is

37:05

your first impulse to hear them out or

37:07

to fix the problem to make them less sad? Many

37:11

of us, with the best of intentions,

37:13

try to make our partners and friends

37:16

feel less sad, but

37:18

psychologist Jordi Quodbach says we

37:20

may be making a mistake. Jordi,

37:23

you say that rather than suppress or

37:25

deny our negative feelings, we should use

37:27

these emotions as sources of information.

37:30

Now, one way to do this

37:32

is to examine the different strains

37:34

that our emotions come in to

37:36

identify multiple distinct emotions. Back

37:38

in your grad school days, I understand that a

37:40

friend of yours once helped you to do this. Can

37:42

you tell me that story, Jordi? So

37:46

back in grad school, I had what

37:48

I thought was the brilliant idea to

37:50

use the university internet to advertise one

37:53

of my studies. So I sent an

37:55

email to the mailing list asking

37:58

for volunteers to participate in my studies. survey.

38:00

Now that mailing list went to

38:02

everyone from the dean to the

38:04

head of departments to the janitor,

38:06

5,000 workers at

38:09

the university. And I

38:11

published my survey but it wasn't working. I could

38:13

not get any sort of confirmation

38:15

message that the email was sent

38:17

so I clicked press again and

38:20

again and again and I

38:22

did it probably like nine or ten times before

38:24

I gave up. I

38:31

went to bed and the next morning

38:33

I opened my inbox and

38:35

there were like 300 and something angry

38:38

emails from professors, top

38:41

executives in the school, you

38:44

know, complaining about me harassing

38:46

them and being really nasty

38:48

about it and I felt

38:50

terrible. So

39:00

in other words, all the messages actually did go out?

39:03

All the messages did go out and

39:05

so 5,000 people working

39:07

at the universities at all level had

39:09

received 10 messages of me asking them

39:11

to participate in my survey and

39:14

I was this, you know, young grad

39:16

student. It felt horrible. And

39:22

you know some of these messages

39:24

were nasty. I remember one top

39:28

medical professor sending me 10

39:32

angry messages in a row. Oh my god. Just

39:34

sort of as a payback. And

39:37

so I started spending hours and hours

39:39

that they're replying to every single angry

39:41

email apologizing trying to explain that I

39:43

didn't do it on purpose and I

39:45

was so sorry to waste their time

39:47

and so forth and

39:49

I was feeling extremely guilty and

39:51

that guilt was sort of motivating

39:54

me to try to repair my

39:56

mistake by apologizing over

39:59

and over. to all of these emails.

40:02

Now, later that night, I

40:05

went for dinner with a friend who was

40:07

a psychiatrist. And I

40:09

was telling him the story. And he did

40:11

the math. He's like, Jordy, there's 5,000 people roughly working

40:14

at the university. You got over

40:17

300 emails of people complaining.

40:20

That's about the prevalence of

40:22

psychopath in the general population. So,

40:24

you know? And

40:30

it sort of hit me.

40:34

It's like these people emailing me,

40:37

they're emailing a poor grad student to

40:40

insult him because they

40:42

had wasted five seconds to put

40:46

my messages in their trash box. It

40:49

didn't make any sense. And so

40:51

I think I went from guilt

40:53

to experiencing mainly anger towards these

40:55

professors. And that

40:57

changed everything. Because guilt motivated

40:59

me to apologize and spend

41:01

hours engaging with

41:03

some of these people would reply

41:06

back, still angry, and so forth.

41:08

But no anger was motivating me

41:10

to do something else, which is

41:12

like, screw these people. So

41:14

I wrote a short email to the

41:16

rector apologizing, promising I

41:18

would never use the mailing list

41:21

again to recruit participants. And

41:23

turned off my computer for a week. And

41:27

life went on. There was no

41:29

negative consequences. And probably if

41:31

I had engaged with all these

41:33

angry people one by one, the

41:35

negative consequences would have lasted much

41:37

longer. So

41:40

this is a really powerful example from

41:42

your life, Jordi. But I'm wondering, what

41:45

advice would you have for listeners in

41:47

terms of how they can identify the

41:49

different emotions they might be experiencing in

41:52

any given situation? Or even perhaps the

41:54

different emotions they might be justified in

41:56

experiencing in any given situation? ask

42:00

ourselves two powerful questions. The first one

42:02

is what flavor of

42:07

emotion am I experiencing right now? Right?

42:09

I'm feeling bad. What flavor of bad?

42:12

Well, I'm annoyed. Okay. What flavor

42:14

of annoyed? Well,

42:18

I'm irritated. All

42:20

right. Then the second

42:22

question is what else am I experiencing?

42:24

Is this just irritation? Hmm. Well,

42:29

no, I'm also a little bit proud of what

42:31

I did. And

42:33

I guess I'm irritated. I'm not being recognized

42:35

for what I did. Okay.

42:37

So now we have more information to work

42:39

with. No, I went

42:41

from feeling bad to having two

42:43

feelings, you know, pride and annoyance,

42:46

and I can act on these feelings probably

42:48

a more flexible

42:50

and adaptive way than

42:52

if I just stuck with, you know, I'm

42:55

not feeling good. You

43:08

know, I once took a drawing class

43:10

many years ago and the instructor told

43:12

us that the most important thing in

43:14

drawing was to be able to see what

43:16

it is that we were actually drawing that most of us

43:18

look at a tree and we see a tree. But a

43:20

tree, of course, is not just a tree. You

43:23

know, it's a, it's a set of physical

43:25

structures. It has shape, but it also has

43:27

light. It has texture. It has color and

43:30

your ability to see the tree in all

43:32

of its granularity really predicts whether you can

43:34

actually draw the tree. And in many cases,

43:36

the reason we don't draw as well as

43:39

we could is we're not seeing the world

43:41

with the granularity with which we could see

43:43

the world. So part of becoming an artist

43:45

actually involves getting better site, if

43:48

you will. And I think what I'm hearing

43:50

you say is that part of being emotionally

43:52

healthier is to actually have the same kind

43:54

of site when it comes to our emotional

43:56

lives. You

43:59

know, one thing is to. to have a

44:01

wide range of emotions, that's breath. But I

44:03

think we also want some

44:05

depth into our emotion. And we wanna

44:07

be able to be very, very granular,

44:09

very precise in the

44:11

way we experience things so

44:13

that we can have more

44:17

information on what's the best course of action.

44:20

Emotions prepare us for action, right?

44:24

So anger prepares you to

44:26

fight the wrongdoing and

44:28

to stand for your right. Fear

44:31

prepares you to be cautious and take

44:33

a step back. Sadness prepares you to

44:35

sort of, again, slow

44:38

down and reflect. And so

44:40

if we're able to experience

44:42

different emotions, then we also experience

44:45

the different action tendencies that goes

44:47

with these emotions. And they

44:49

might be upsetting each other, right? Anger

44:52

might take us too far, sadness might take

44:54

us too far. But combined,

44:56

it's kind of a wisdom of

44:59

the crowd. If you think about

45:01

information, right? Each individual

45:04

emotion might be biased, but together,

45:07

when we sort of average the information they bring,

45:10

it's pretty accurate. Jordi

45:21

says that one way to develop

45:23

our capacity for emotional granularity is

45:25

to expand our vocabulary of feeling

45:27

words. This might include

45:29

borrowing words from other languages. One

45:32

of his favorites is the phrase, Mono

45:34

no Aware, which he picked up while

45:36

in Japan. It's a term,

45:38

he says, that captures the feeling we

45:40

have when looking at something beautiful but

45:42

fleeting, like the blooms on a

45:44

cherry tree in the spring. So

45:47

imagine watching the cherry blossom and it

45:49

lasts only for a few days. This

45:52

sort of realization that

45:54

the world is

45:56

constantly changing and there's beauty in

45:58

the change. And

46:01

that concept, actually, know that I have

46:03

a word for it, makes

46:06

me pay a lot more attention to my

46:08

walks into the park in autumn and the

46:10

leaves and so forth, because now

46:12

I have an emotion word for it. Yeah.

46:15

There's another emotion word from Dutch,

46:17

and I'm gonna butcher the name,

46:19

but Utwind, which

46:23

is this feeling of being

46:26

refreshed and that

46:28

your worries are being blown away by

46:30

strong wind and rain. So

46:34

that's really an emotion that resonates with me. And as

46:36

a matter of fact, a few

46:39

weeks ago, I was on my

46:41

bicycle when a thunderstorm hit, and

46:44

it was pouring rain and the

46:47

battery died. So I was soaked

46:50

wet with this super

46:52

heavy bike uphill, and

46:55

I was about to think that this was the worst

46:57

day ever when a little

47:00

voice in my head is like, oh, this is

47:02

really, it's wind, you know, like the wind,

47:04

the rain on my face, and

47:09

that changed my experience. I

47:11

went from being pissed to being like, hey,

47:14

I'm being completely refreshed by the

47:16

storm. So I think

47:18

learning new emotion concepts can really

47:21

change the way we approach situations.

47:33

Your research has also found that interacting

47:35

with a diverse group

47:37

of people can have effects on

47:40

our emotional states. Tell me about

47:42

this work, Jordi. So

47:45

in this study, we track people again with

47:48

smartphones, and we asked them who they were

47:50

interacting with and what was their mood. And

47:52

what we find was that the

47:55

diversity of social interactions that people

47:57

had, right? So if you think

47:59

about having... five hours of social

48:01

interaction, are you spending these five

48:03

hours with only a couple people?

48:05

Are you spending these hours with

48:07

different categories of people, relatives, friends,

48:10

acquaintances, co-workers, and so forth. And

48:13

controlling for the sheer amount of

48:15

time we spend socializing, which is

48:17

good for our happiness, we

48:19

also found that the diversity of our social

48:22

portfolio predicted higher

48:24

wellbeing. And part

48:26

of the reason, again, at least, when

48:29

we look at the statistical sort

48:31

of data, is that a

48:33

more diverse set of friends and

48:36

social relationship might bring us a

48:38

more diverse set of emotion as

48:40

well. So people who have more

48:42

diverse social portfolios also report more

48:44

emotion diversity in everyday life. Yeah,

48:46

so in other words, you could have a conversation

48:49

with a work colleague and maybe that conversation

48:51

is frustrating because you're working on something difficult,

48:53

but you have a conversation then with a

48:55

friend and you'd recall a happy time from

48:57

your childhood. And going through these different social

49:00

relationships in some ways is allowing you to

49:02

dip into different kinds of emotions. Absolutely,

49:05

and it's not just social interactions.

49:08

Other research from other labs show

49:10

that the diversity of activities that we

49:12

engage in every day is also directly

49:14

linked to the diversity of emotion we

49:16

experience, right? So the more different kind

49:18

of things that you do in everyday

49:21

life, the more likely you are to

49:23

experience different flavors of emotion. Some

49:26

years ago, Jordy got to see

49:28

firsthand the benefits of emotional diversity.

49:31

He had been recruited by French television to

49:33

run a live experiment where he tried

49:35

to make six unhappy people happier through

49:38

verified scientific techniques. Well,

49:41

I was extremely stressed that I'd never been

49:43

on TV, but I made

49:46

it, they gave me the part. And

49:48

so I moved to France for two months to shoot

49:50

the show. And it

49:53

was a disaster. I was extremely

49:55

self-conscious of my Belgian accent. The

49:57

Parisian cast crew... made

50:00

comments all the time. They made me

50:02

redo the takes because I was not

50:04

pronouncing the provision way some of the

50:07

words. And I

50:09

was very, very anxious. And

50:11

my coping strategy was to work harder.

50:14

And so I was alone in my

50:16

hotel room, you know, every night practicing

50:19

the lines that we're going to say,

50:21

thinking about ways to make

50:24

psychological intervention visually appealing on TV,

50:27

you know, turns out that filming

50:29

people meditating for half an hour

50:31

is not very exciting television. So

50:36

I was very stressed about trying to make this

50:38

show a success and not look foolish on television.

50:41

And I worked myself harder and harder

50:44

every day. It didn't

50:46

really help to be honest. I

50:48

was still anxious on set, still to

50:51

do retakes after retakes. And

50:53

then at some point my partner visited

50:56

me. So she was in New York

50:59

and she visited me in France,

51:01

sort of out of the blue, and she

51:03

had planned a little surprise romantic getaway in

51:06

a nearby village. So I

51:08

was really torn because on the one hand, I

51:10

wanted to work even more. Like I knew I

51:12

was in great onset. On

51:14

the other hand, she had planned that surprise and

51:16

there's no way I could tell her that I

51:19

needed to work that weekend. So

51:21

reluctantly I went and

51:25

with a lovely weekend, lovely

51:27

sceneries, good wine, that

51:30

was great. When

51:32

I came back on

51:34

the following Monday on set, I was anxious because

51:36

I had not prepared. I had not rehearsed the

51:38

way I would typically rehearse. And

51:41

I shot the scene ready

51:43

to hear, complaints from the

51:45

director. But then the

51:47

director looked at me and said, Jordy, you nailed it.

51:51

This was fantastic. And the crew also

51:53

thought it was great. And they're like,

51:55

something has changed, Jordy. And of course,

51:57

being Parisian, French, they made dirty jokes.

52:00

and speculated it was due to my romantic

52:02

activities over the weekend. But

52:05

I think that

52:07

was not really it. I think what

52:09

I'd done is that I'd replenished my emotional

52:12

bank account in a way. I'd added

52:14

some happiness back and now that gave

52:16

me the energy to deliver

52:19

the lines better, to think more

52:21

creatively about how to set up the

52:23

scene and so forth. You

52:33

know, Jordi, I'm thinking about this idea

52:35

that I think comes from Buddhism,

52:38

which is the idea that when an emotion

52:41

appears in our hearts,

52:43

we should almost treat it like a

52:45

guest who's appearing at our house. And

52:47

according to this idea, you know, when

52:50

anger shows up at your house, instead

52:52

of closing the door to anger and

52:54

saying, I don't want you, go away,

52:56

you actually open the

52:58

door to your anger and invite the anger

53:01

in as you would invite in an honored

53:03

guest. And you would sit the guests down and you

53:05

would tell the guest, you know, good to see you.

53:07

Thank you for visiting my home. Tell me what you

53:10

have in mind. What do you have to share? And

53:12

in some ways, that metaphor of

53:14

thinking about our emotions as honored guests,

53:16

I feel meshes really well with the

53:19

idea that you're talking about here, which

53:21

is in some ways, being curious about

53:23

the emotions that visit us, not just

53:25

simply being reactive to them, but being

53:27

curious about them, allows us

53:30

to understand what the emotions are

53:32

actually trying to tell us. I

53:34

love that idea, Shankar. And I will add

53:36

that, you know, not only you treat

53:39

a guest right, and you listen to them and

53:41

you treat them nicely, but also

53:43

a guest is not a permanent resident. You know

53:45

that the guest at some point will leave. And

53:48

so you listen to the guest, but at the end

53:50

of the day, you choose how you want to react,

53:53

rather than according the emotion too

53:55

much weight. I

54:03

love that so much, Jordi, because I feel like

54:05

the two things we often end up doing when

54:07

negative emotions appear is we either try and shut

54:09

the door to the negative emotion and say, don't

54:11

enter my house. Or we open

54:14

the door and allow the emotion in some ways

54:16

to sweep us off and assume that the guest

54:18

now owns the house and runs our

54:20

life. And in some ways you're saying that both

54:23

of those in some ways are maladaptive. Absolutely.

54:27

And if we push the analogy a

54:29

bit further, the more

54:31

guests you have at the party, the

54:35

less attention you're going to pay to one

54:37

individual guest. You're taking care of everyone, and

54:39

it's great, and you're having lots of interesting

54:42

ideas from everyone. But the

54:44

more guests you have at your party, the

54:46

less likely there are to take over. Jordi

55:03

Quadbach is a psychologist at Assade

55:06

Business and Law School in Barcelona, Spain.

55:08

Jordi, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden

55:10

Brain. Thank you, Shankar. It

55:13

was my pleasure. Do

55:20

you have follow-up questions for Jordi Quadbach about

55:22

how we respond to our emotions? If

55:24

you'd be willing to share your question with a

55:27

Hidden Brain audience, please find a quiet space and

55:29

record a voice memo on your phone. You

55:32

can email it to us at

55:34

ideas at hiddenbrain.org. That

55:37

email address again is ideas

55:39

at hiddenbrain.org. Hidden

55:42

Brain is produced by Hidden Brain Media. Our

55:46

audio production team includes Annie

55:48

Murphy-Paugh, Kristin Wong, Laura Quirell,

55:50

Ryan Katz, Autumn Barnes, Andrew

55:52

Chadwick, and Nick Woodbury. Tara

55:55

Boyle is our executive producer. I'm

55:57

Hidden Brain's executive editor. If

56:01

you enjoyed today's conversation, be sure to check

56:03

out all the episodes in our Emotions 2.0

56:05

series. You

56:07

can find them right here in this

56:10

podcast feed or at our website, hiddenbrain.org.

56:14

Next week on the show, we conclude

56:16

our series with a look at the

56:18

white-hot emotion of rage. I'm

56:21

Sean Carveda-Atom. See

56:34

you soon. Support

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