0:00

This is Hidden Brain. I'm

0:02

Shankar Vedante. Some years

0:04

ago, a homeless woman was

0:06

being discharged at a

0:08

Philadelphia hospital. On her way

0:11

out, nurses noticed the woman

0:13

was wearing flip-flops. It was

0:15

January, and January's in

0:18

Philadelphia can get very

0:20

cold. Nursing director Julie Mangor

0:22

had an idea. Her daughter was

0:24

a basketball player. and had left

0:27

a bunch of old sneakers in

0:29

the trunk of Julie's car.

0:31

Would one of those spares fit the

0:33

homeless woman? They went out and took

0:35

a look, but the shoes were all a size

0:38

and a half too small for the woman's

0:40

feet. That's when Julie told a

0:42

reporter from WTXF TV. Things took

0:44

an unexpected turn. So as I

0:46

was leaving, she's like, your shoes

0:49

are nice. I said, well, what's the size

0:51

of your feet? And she's like a 10.

0:54

Julie looked down at her own

0:56

shoes. They were a size 10.

0:58

They were also super comfortable and

1:00

she loved them. Like these are a

1:02

10, do you want these? And she

1:04

just cried and thought it would be

1:07

great. So I just gave her the

1:09

shoes. Julie unlaced her shoes and

1:11

handed them to the other

1:13

woman. Perhaps you've had

1:16

experiences like this yourself. Our

1:18

sister show, My Un Sung Hero.

1:21

often feature stories like this where

1:23

people reach out to help one

1:26

another in unusual acts of

1:28

generosity. But the reason these

1:30

stories stand out is because they're

1:32

at odds with the way most of

1:35

us feel treated as we go

1:37

about our days. We don't feel seen

1:39

and heard. We feel ignored and

1:41

passed over. This week on Hidden

1:43

Brain and in a companion story

1:46

on Hidden Brain Plus... We examine

1:48

the reasons behind the growing

1:50

disconnection in our schools,

1:52

hospitals and workplaces, and what

1:54

we can do about it. It's also the start

1:56

of a series that has long

1:59

been a favorite with listeners. Relationships

2:01

2.0. In the coming weeks we

2:03

will look at the art of

2:05

negotiation and ways in which we

2:07

can get along better with the

2:10

people in our lives. Support

2:28

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3:30

When boarding a train or subway

3:32

or going shopping at the mall,

3:34

we may take in hundreds of

3:37

people at a glance. On a

3:39

Zoom call for work, the faces

3:41

of our coworkers fit into a

3:44

grid. Even when we're spending time

3:46

with close friends and family, our

3:48

familiarity can get in the way

3:51

of really seeing the person in

3:53

front of us. Allison Pew is

3:55

a sociologist at Johns Hopkins University.

3:58

She studies how we relate to

4:00

one another and how this has

4:02

changed over time. Allison Pew, welcome

4:05

to Hidden Brain. Thank you so

4:07

much for having me. Allison, growing

4:09

up, you were the youngest of

4:12

five children. You have a story

4:14

about the first new bathing suit

4:16

you ever owned. Can you tell

4:19

me that story? Sure, you know,

4:21

right. The youngest of five, it

4:23

was a generally loving environment, but

4:26

I would say it was one,

4:28

my mother still sometimes calls it,

4:30

benign neglect. So I did not

4:33

get a bathing suit that wasn't

4:35

owned by someone else until I

4:37

was in college. Wow. And I

4:39

went myself to a department store

4:42

and picked out, I think, a

4:44

pink bathing suit that I wanted

4:46

instead of the scores of other

4:49

kinds I had had over the

4:51

years. The

5:00

bathing suit story is one of

5:02

many incidents where Allison remembers she

5:04

was seen as one kid in

5:07

a crowd. It wasn't about being

5:09

treated badly. It was about being

5:11

ignored. Another time, Allison remembers coming

5:14

home in middle school, upset because

5:16

some boys in her school were

5:18

bothering her. She told her mother

5:21

what had happened. I remember coming

5:23

home kind of full of outrage

5:25

and being like, this is not

5:28

okay, you know. they shouldn't be

5:30

doing this and I was trying

5:32

to figuring out I just did

5:34

not I handle it and she

5:37

did not take it seriously at

5:39

all and you know unfortunately she

5:41

she just kind of said oh

5:44

that's because they like you that

5:46

was her That was her rationale.

5:48

And at the time, I remember

5:51

a really sharp disjuncture between my

5:53

own, I would say, half desperate

5:55

outrage and her kind of semi-humorous,

5:57

oh, you know, they just... So

6:00

you felt that you

6:02

weren't really seen by

6:04

your mom? No, that was

6:07

a big moment of

6:09

a kind of

6:11

cognitive dissonance between what

6:13

I thought was going

6:15

on in her response for

6:18

sure. I did not feel

6:20

seen. Allison is now a

6:23

mom of three daughters herself.

6:26

She remembers one

6:28

incident. when the shoe was on

6:31

the other foot. At the time we

6:33

were living in California and

6:35

there would be old boxes or

6:37

you know interesting rocks

6:39

or you know kind of things that

6:41

they'd be on the sidewalk.

6:43

Obviously either somebody part of

6:45

nature that was just there

6:47

or some things that other

6:49

people were putting out for either

6:52

garbage or for people to pick up

6:54

and my daughter was always the one.

6:56

to pick them up. So she had

6:59

a name for them. She called them

7:01

her inventions. She was very

7:03

young. I think she meant

7:05

that they were a kind of art

7:07

or maybe that she was

7:10

inventing, that she would be

7:12

imagining what she could do with

7:14

them or something, but I really

7:16

viewed them as junk. I actually

7:19

threw them out and she

7:21

still remembers that and

7:23

reminds me. And you know, to

7:25

me, it's really a... a primary

7:27

moment of me not seeing

7:29

her and how she viewed

7:31

these small, we'll call them

7:33

treasures. Allison started to notice

7:36

these moments of unseen or

7:38

miss seeing as she went about

7:40

her days. One time, during a

7:43

visit to a new doctor, her

7:45

physician did a quick

7:47

evaluation, saw some elevated

7:49

numbers, and advised Allison

7:51

to eat fewer cookies.

7:53

Now, Allison happens to love

7:55

cookies, but she also wanted

7:57

to tell the doctor, shouldn't

8:00

you learn more about me and

8:02

my lifestyle before leaping to a

8:04

conclusion? It didn't land well at all.

8:06

You know I just I have a very

8:08

unusual lifestyle I think that she

8:11

probably doesn't see very often because I

8:13

row crew and I have done so

8:15

for 30 years. Wow. And right now

8:17

I'm involved in a team that's very

8:20

intense in Washington DC which involves you

8:22

know one to two hours daily. I

8:24

also don't have any caffeine, I

8:27

don't have any alcohol, you

8:29

know, there's just, I think

8:31

I'm an unusual person health-wise.

8:33

And so when she was like, you know,

8:36

these are elevated, try not to

8:38

have so many cookies, she didn't

8:40

see the person she was talking

8:42

to. She didn't really have all

8:45

that context that can produce

8:47

a good witnessing moment. Yeah.

8:49

And along with it, good advice.

8:51

And I think many people have these experiences,

8:54

right? You go to the doctor and,

8:56

you know, even if the doctor is

8:58

very competent, you know, he or she

9:00

spends, you know, all their time staring

9:02

at a computer screen and asking you

9:05

questions and glancing at you once every

9:07

15 seconds. I think many of us

9:09

have had experiences like that. And you

9:11

have the sense, is my doctor actually

9:13

listening to me or watching me or

9:15

seeing me or not? Yeah, the fabulous

9:18

writer, Abraham Vergiz has called that the

9:20

eye patient that we're all. to some

9:22

degree an eye patient, meaning a patient

9:24

that exists almost more by computer

9:26

than in our holistic embodied

9:29

selves in front of each

9:31

other. And if that is how you

9:33

feel, that often will affect whether or

9:35

not you do what they say. Like

9:37

it's going to take a lot more

9:39

than that to have me stop eating

9:41

cookies. So

9:52

as a sociologist Allison you've conducted

9:54

some of your research by carrying out

9:56

dozens of in-depth interviews a few years

9:59

ago you in interviewed a chaplain

10:01

whom you call Hank. It

10:03

was a very intense conversation,

10:05

but at the end of

10:07

it, he had something to

10:10

tell you about what the

10:12

exchange meant to him. Tell

10:14

me that story. Sure. Yeah,

10:16

Hank, he started off as

10:18

a minister in a very

10:20

large church in the Washington

10:23

DC area. And he started

10:25

a whole bunch of programs

10:27

for low-income youth. in the

10:29

community. So he started tutoring

10:31

centers and I think sports

10:33

camps and all sorts of

10:36

things to try and reach

10:38

kids and by his account

10:40

he did reach them. They

10:42

would come to his tutoring

10:44

centers and they would kind

10:46

of hang out with him

10:49

and share stories and he

10:51

felt like he had attained

10:53

some real connection to those

10:55

youth and he was so

10:57

proud of it as he's

11:00

telling me. And then he

11:02

gets a job. in another

11:04

city, moves there, but he

11:06

ends up losing that job

11:08

and feeling really defeated in

11:10

that moment. And so he

11:13

leaves that and he comes

11:15

to be a chaplain in

11:17

the hospital in which I

11:19

was doing some observations. And

11:21

so he talks to me

11:23

about this trajectory. And at

11:26

the very end of the

11:28

exchange, he talked to me

11:30

about what it was like

11:32

to be interviewed. And he

11:34

said, you know, this was

11:36

very powerful. And then he

11:39

said, therapeutic, almost. And

11:50

this is not true just of

11:52

Hank, right? You've heard this from

11:55

other people as well? Oh yeah,

11:57

it's something that's very common. People

11:59

often say, oh, this was just

12:02

like therapy. It's not... like therapy

12:04

because I'm not really there to

12:06

solve any problems or really to

12:09

counsel them in any way. And

12:11

they know that. So it's more

12:14

like it's the language we have

12:16

for that feeling of being seen.

12:18

Allison started to see that the

12:21

act of really noticing another person,

12:23

paying attention to them, being present

12:25

for them, this was not just

12:28

something that was nice to have.

12:30

It was something that people craved.

12:32

She heard from one doctor who

12:35

told her that her patients often

12:37

seemed to need this kind of

12:39

attention more than her medical expertise.

12:42

Yeah, so Greta was a pediatrician

12:44

and she was kind of surprised

12:47

when she first started her practice,

12:49

how much... she was supposed to

12:51

be attending to the mothers rather

12:54

than the children. That that was

12:56

something that was a surprise to

12:58

her. She's often found herself giving,

13:01

you know, say, parenting advice or

13:03

talking about car seats or talking

13:05

about, you know, what it's like

13:08

when you can't get any sleep

13:10

or something like that. And the

13:12

mother's kind of desperately needed that.

13:15

She felt their need. on the

13:17

other end, but she often felt

13:20

like she told me she didn't

13:22

feel like she was practicing on

13:24

the top of her medical license.

13:27

That was the language she used

13:29

to mean that she had all

13:31

this expertise in children and children's

13:34

symptoms and diseases and disorders and

13:36

really the bulk of her job

13:38

was about like kind of listening,

13:41

hearing and being attuned to what

13:43

the mothers were saying. And she

13:46

ultimately ended up saying, you know.

13:48

The mothers don't need me. They

13:50

need an hour with a good

13:53

listener. I mean, all these stories in

13:55

some ways reflect something that is an underlying

13:57

theme. here Allison which is that when we

13:59

are not seen when we're not heard you

14:01

know we notice it you know we bring

14:04

home a set of rocks and twigs and

14:06

our mom throws them out and you know

14:08

it feels like a big deal to us

14:10

even though it doesn't feel like a big

14:12

deal to the other person on the other

14:15

hand someone spends 10 minutes listening to you

14:17

and looking you in the eye it makes

14:19

a huge difference to us talk about just

14:21

the emotional effect of feeling seen and feeling

14:23

unseen Yeah, I

14:26

think that's the most important

14:28

dimension of this for me

14:31

is the emotional impact because

14:33

so many of the other

14:35

impacts get kind of carried

14:38

on along on the emotional

14:40

impact. The emotional impact of

14:43

being seen people feel like

14:45

they have dignity, people feel

14:47

like they have understanding, people

14:50

feel like they have purpose.

14:52

Those are all things that

14:55

other researchers as well as

14:57

my own research has found.

15:00

And when you're not seen,

15:02

it can really dissuade you

15:04

from following good advice, because

15:07

you don't hear the good

15:09

advice. You don't think that

15:12

it's relevant to you or

15:14

it doesn't feel like it

15:16

recognizes the particularities of your

15:19

situation. All of us want

15:21

to be seen for the

15:24

unique individuals we are. And

15:26

yet, the experience of being

15:28

seen in this way can

15:31

be dispiritingly rare. When we

15:33

come back, the psychological benefits

15:36

of being seen and why

15:38

it often doesn't happen. You're

15:41

listening to Hidden Brain, I'm

15:43

Shankar Vedanta. Support

15:55

for Hidden Brain comes from

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is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantham.

17:23

Allison Pew is a sociologist at

17:25

Johns Hopkins University. In the course

17:27

of conducting detailed interviews with people,

17:30

she came to see she was

17:32

performing a sort of therapy. She

17:34

wasn't trying to be a therapist,

17:36

but the people she talked with

17:38

reported the experience of being deeply

17:40

seen and heard, felt therapeutic. Allison,

17:44

as you noticed the effects of

17:46

people feeling seen, you started to

17:48

recognize the importance of this in

17:50

different settings. You noticed this in

17:53

your kids' schools, in doctor's offices,

17:55

in community settings. In fact, you

17:57

started to see this everywhere. That's

17:59

right. It's kind of... most obviously

18:01

true for therapists. It's also true

18:04

for teachers. It's also true for

18:06

primary care physicians. So those

18:08

seem like almost the most

18:11

obvious cases. But it's also

18:13

true for, you know, I

18:15

interviewed people who were like

18:17

community organizers. I interviewed people

18:20

who were funeral home directors,

18:22

home, home health care aides.

18:24

sex workers, even police. I

18:26

interviewed a detective, I

18:29

interviewed somebody who works

18:31

with prison guards, you

18:33

know, people you wouldn't

18:36

expect to be particularly

18:38

empathetic or who themselves

18:41

might not talk about

18:43

relationship as an important

18:45

part of their work, but seeing

18:48

the other is part of how

18:50

people do their jobs

18:52

across many occupations. When

18:57

people sign up to be therapists, they

18:59

know their job is to listen to

19:01

other people, to try to really see

19:03

them. But what Allison noticed was

19:05

that people who went into lots

19:08

of other fields were also

19:10

discovering that an essential component

19:12

of their jobs was paying

19:14

close attention to the people around

19:16

them. Being a great detective or

19:18

dancer or computer programmer

19:21

involves being skilled at

19:23

human relationships. Allison

19:25

started to call this

19:27

work of seeing and hearing

19:29

other people connective

19:31

labor. Connective labor is the

19:34

act of seeing the other

19:36

and the other feeling seen.

19:38

You know, this is very common

19:40

in sales, for example. If

19:43

you want to sell something

19:45

to somebody, they're more likely

19:48

to buy it if you

19:50

convey to them that you see

19:52

that they have a particular problem

19:54

that this solves, or you see

19:56

that they have a particular approach

19:58

that this, you know... kind of

20:00

works with or whatever, you know,

20:03

like the seeing is kind of

20:05

the engine powering so many different

20:07

outcomes that we are pointing at

20:09

and thinking about that is so

20:11

important in so many different occupations.

20:14

I mean, on the on the

20:16

surface, you know, we might say

20:18

we are sending a kid to

20:20

a school because we want the

20:23

kid to learn, you know, writing

20:25

or algebra, we go to a

20:27

doctor because we want to get

20:29

a treatment for an illness, but

20:32

What you're saying is that underlying

20:34

those things actually happening, underlying someone

20:36

learning algebra, underlying someone listening to

20:38

their doctor, involves this system of

20:40

trust and feeling seen. And if

20:43

you don't experience that, you're much

20:45

less likely to say, I want

20:47

to play along. Exactly. What I

20:49

felt was not known is how

20:52

much these different occupations have in

20:54

common and how it extends well

20:56

beyond. prototypical ones. So like the

20:58

hairdresser also needs to be able

21:00

to see you, to be able

21:03

to give you a haircut that

21:05

you want and have you accept

21:07

that haircut and you know like

21:09

it's actually a dynamic and that

21:12

dynamic is common in many different

21:14

kinds of jobs, not just you

21:16

know the ones that have articulated

21:18

how important relationships are. Connective

21:26

labor can often be invisible. But

21:29

when people don't have the skill

21:31

to see and hear those around

21:33

them, the lack of this invisible

21:35

thing, it suddenly becomes very visible.

21:37

Allison says connective labor is like

21:39

engine grease. When you don't have

21:41

it, the engine might still run,

21:43

but you're going to hear some

21:45

screeching sounds. So... You can force

21:47

yourself to learn even though you

21:49

hate that teacher and they're not

21:51

really seeing you and you're sitting

21:53

in the back of the class

21:55

and you know like you can

21:57

kind of roll that rock. up

21:59

the hill but it's not going

22:02

to be a pleasant or joyful

22:04

experience and also you probably won't

22:06

go as far as you could

22:08

go. And that's true in many

22:10

different fields. I love the analogy

22:12

to engine grease because it truly

22:14

is at some level it's invisible

22:16

but yet when it's not there

22:18

you can see the results very

22:20

plainly. Exactly. Yeah. I

22:31

think there's an assumption that the

22:33

work of seeing and caring for

22:35

people is largely women's work. You

22:37

say that this assumption leads us

22:39

to overlook the connective labor that

22:41

many men perform, both in the

22:43

workplace and in communities? Absolutely. This

22:45

concept of connective labor, I'm really

22:47

thinking of, it can be deployed

22:50

for all kinds of reasons, so

22:52

it could be deployed for well-being,

22:54

as you know, the teachers or

22:56

the therapists might do, but it

22:58

could also be... deployed for like

23:00

persuasion you could say and that

23:02

might be the sales people or

23:04

it could be deployed for control

23:06

and that might be as you

23:09

know the hostage negotiator or the

23:11

detective or you know so many

23:13

of those jobs you I'm sure

23:15

you can hear are occupied by

23:17

men so I think for instance

23:19

lawyers definitely need this judges need

23:21

this and many of those are

23:23

occupied by men. So when you

23:26

started talking about connective labor in

23:28

public, did people resonate with that

23:30

idea? Did people recognize what that

23:32

was, Allison? People would

23:34

definitely come up to me afterward

23:36

and say, you know, I'm a

23:39

nurse and thank God that you're

23:41

writing about this because I need

23:43

to be able to go back

23:46

to my employer and say, you

23:48

know, I'm doing more than bed

23:50

pans. I'm doing more than, you

23:53

know, medication timing. You know, this

23:55

is important work of sitting and

23:57

seeing the patient, you know, or

24:00

the client, and they felt... I

24:02

suppose they felt seen themselves, but

24:04

it felt like it had important

24:07

potential impact for them in their

24:09

conversations about their work. So

24:12

when you started talking about

24:14

connective labor in talks about

24:16

your research with people, people

24:18

would recognize that this was

24:21

an important part of what

24:23

it is that they were

24:25

doing. But you say that

24:28

they used the word magic

24:30

to describe the power of

24:32

connection, that they themselves had

24:35

seen firsthand, that when they

24:37

connected with other people, magical

24:39

things seemed to happen. Yeah.

24:41

They definitely used the word

24:44

magic to describe. what they

24:46

saw of the effects of

24:48

seeing patients or students. You

24:51

know, people definitely would come

24:53

up and describe it as

24:55

magical. I think they use

24:58

that word because we don't

25:00

really understand it well. It's

25:02

tied to this invisibility in

25:04

that there's this really important

25:07

process that's happening underneath all

25:09

these, you know, economic tasks

25:11

that we value and this

25:14

kind of underlying process shadowy,

25:16

you know, opaque. We don't

25:18

understand it well and that's

25:20

why people use the word

25:23

magic because it feels like

25:25

it just comes upon us

25:27

as this great gift without

25:30

really understanding what goes into

25:32

it and what produces it.

25:44

I mean, I think we've all

25:47

been in workplaces where, you know,

25:49

perhaps, you know, one boss is

25:52

replaced by another boss and the

25:54

new person basically, you know, really

25:56

has a human touch to them

25:59

and within, you know, days or

26:01

weeks sometimes, you know, a very...

26:04

toxic environment can be transformed and

26:06

people are suddenly working together and

26:08

they're cooperating together and it does

26:11

feel you know quite magical that

26:13

something could have happened that quickly.

26:16

Yeah I mean I've had that

26:18

experience and and what I like

26:20

about that example actually is that

26:23

you're talking not just about you

26:25

know the impact of one person

26:28

seeing you but also how we

26:30

can create a kind of culture

26:32

in which people are seeing others,

26:35

that you're not the only person

26:37

doing the seeing. So a really

26:40

warm, competent leader can make an

26:42

enormous difference in part by catalyzing

26:44

this kind of magic. You've tried

26:47

to pinpoint the benefits of connection

26:49

in different domains. One study by

26:52

a group of researchers in Finland

26:54

found that this type of connection

26:56

helps us manage our emotions? Yes,

26:59

I love that study. I think

27:01

it's so well done. What they

27:04

did was they had... pairs of

27:06

people who don't actually know each

27:08

other tell stories to each other.

27:11

And then they measured, I guess

27:13

they had, you know, kind of

27:16

wires attached to them while they

27:18

did this, but they measured the

27:20

emotional arousal of the storyteller and

27:23

the story listener. And they found

27:25

that when the listener conveyed that

27:28

they heard and understood... the other

27:30

person, and you can imagine that's

27:32

through nods or facial expressions or

27:35

encouraging noises, the storytellers actually noticeably

27:37

benefited. They felt calmer, their emotional

27:40

arousal decreased, and the more their

27:42

listeners conveyed this kind of affiliation,

27:44

the stronger the impact. And meanwhile,

27:47

it also had an impact on

27:49

the listeners. So the more the

27:52

listeners were... allied in this way,

27:54

you know, nods, facial expressions, encouraging

27:56

noises, etc. The more they experienced

27:59

increased aroused. So it was like

28:01

the arousal moved from

28:03

the storyteller to the

28:05

listener as the story, and

28:07

as the listener was conveying

28:10

that they understood and saw

28:12

the other person. And so

28:14

it was a real sharing

28:17

or spreading of the emotional

28:19

load. It's a really

28:21

beautifully designed study.

28:23

In your own research, you

28:25

followed a chaplain. You call

28:28

her Erin as she went

28:30

about her rounds at a

28:32

hospital. And she recounted an

28:34

incident where she helped a

28:36

patient regulate some very intense

28:39

emotions. Tell me the story

28:41

she told you. Sure. Erin,

28:43

she sees one patient who

28:45

is intubated and he is...

28:47

so angry at being intubated.

28:50

He didn't want to

28:52

be intubated, even though the

28:54

doctors told him he had to

28:56

be because he would die otherwise.

28:58

He couldn't speak, obviously,

29:00

through the tube. He also couldn't

29:03

write because he was on,

29:05

I guess, medications that made

29:07

that difficult. So he's just

29:09

steaming full of fury, and

29:11

then comes Aaron, and she sees

29:14

him, bottled up anger. And she

29:16

says, you know, why don't you take this

29:18

Kleenex box and like throw

29:20

it, throw it against the wall? And

29:22

he was so astounded, so

29:24

relieved and powerfully moved by that,

29:27

that he like grabs her arm

29:29

and pulls her in and she sits

29:31

with him for, you know, 15 minutes

29:33

or 20 minutes. And then the next

29:36

time she sees him, it's about,

29:38

it's a couple days later and

29:40

he's emerged from the procedure

29:42

and he's no longer intubated.

29:44

And he says to her,

29:46

there is nothing like being

29:49

in the worst moment of

29:51

your life and you feel

29:53

like someone understands

29:55

you. Hmm. And that is such

29:58

a perfect capture of what

30:00

being seen feels like and

30:02

what it can do for

30:04

you in your worst moment.

30:06

And of course the fact

30:08

that she was sitting with

30:10

him and holding his hand,

30:12

it doesn't take away or

30:14

change any of the physical

30:16

things that he's going through,

30:18

but some of what he's

30:20

going through is not just

30:22

physical. He's also experiencing emotional

30:25

pain and presumably Aaron was

30:27

able to reduce some of

30:29

that pain. Exactly. And there's

30:31

actually a lot of research

30:33

by psychologists and neuroscientists that

30:35

show that, you know, when

30:37

you're, when someone's holding your

30:39

hand, it can alleviate pain.

30:41

But here's an articulated moment

30:43

where Hiram, the patient, is

30:45

saying to Aaron, you saw

30:47

me, and that, that was

30:49

transporting. A

30:57

feeling of connection might also

31:00

help us learn new things.

31:02

What have researchers discovered about

31:05

the effects of being seen

31:07

and heard for students, Halassen?

31:09

So this is a really

31:12

voluminous area. I have a

31:14

couple of favorites. One author

31:17

reviewed a thousand articles with

31:19

355,000 students and came away

31:22

with, you know, this meta

31:24

finding that, you know, among

31:26

school age children, he says,

31:29

the effect size of teacher

31:31

student relationships bigger than most

31:34

typical educational innovations or curriculum

31:36

changes. So like the teacher-student

31:39

relationship that underlies whether or

31:41

not someone is learning algebra

31:44

or can you know parse

31:46

a sentence that is more

31:48

powerful has a greater impact

31:51

than say standard curriculum changes

31:53

or other innovations. You

31:58

might expect that to be

32:00

for the younger kids maybe,

32:03

but maybe less true for

32:05

middle school or high schoolers,

32:07

and actually it's the opposite.

32:09

The effect sizes are larger

32:12

in studies that are conducted

32:14

in higher grades. And teacher-student

32:16

relationships are even more important

32:19

when kids are academically at

32:21

risk, you know, kids from...

32:23

disadvantaged economic backgrounds, for example,

32:26

and kids with learning difficulties.

32:28

So it's like even more

32:30

important for adolescents, even though

32:32

we don't usually structure those

32:35

schools to enable it to

32:37

happen very well. So

32:44

this type of emotional connection

32:46

also seems to be related

32:49

to physical health. We touched

32:51

on this a little bit

32:53

earlier in our conversation Allison.

32:55

What is the effect on

32:57

patients of feeling seen and

33:00

heard by their doctors? There's

33:02

a lot of research that

33:04

talks about how being seen

33:06

by one's doctor leads to

33:09

better health outcomes and leads

33:11

directly to patient well-being. My

33:13

favorite study here is a

33:15

meta analysis that has extremely

33:18

strict inclusion criteria. So it's

33:20

only randomized controlled trials in

33:22

which the relationship between doctor

33:24

and patient is experimentally manipulated.

33:27

So they tell the physicians

33:29

to, you know, do or

33:31

don't make eye contact or

33:33

do or don't interrupt, etc.

33:36

And based on that. These

33:38

scholars, researchers, conclude that the

33:40

impact of clinician-patient relationship on

33:42

health outcomes was significant and

33:44

exceeded that of taking an

33:47

aspirin every day to ward

33:49

off heart attacks. Wow. So

33:51

I mean, it has sort

33:53

of actual physical consequences here,

33:56

not just psychological... consequences. Exactly.

33:58

I mean think how many

34:00

people take an aspirin every

34:02

day to the word of

34:05

heart attacks and this is

34:07

something that actually exceeds even

34:09

that. An experience

34:11

of being seen by a

34:14

chaplain or a teacher or

34:16

a doctor can be quite

34:18

intense. But research has also

34:20

found that being seen by

34:22

a passing acquaintance can also

34:24

make a difference to our

34:26

well-being. We've featured Jillian Sandstrom

34:29

and Liz Dunn on Hidden

34:31

Brain before. Tell me about

34:33

some of their work looking

34:35

at the effects of even

34:37

casual acquaintances noticing us as

34:39

we go through our day.

34:41

Yeah, they've done great work

34:44

on this stuff. The first,

34:46

the study that I most

34:48

enjoy thinking and talking about

34:50

is they experimentally varied how

34:52

cafe customers interacted with baristas

34:54

and then they measured their

34:57

well-being afterward. And they gave

34:59

some participants. They gave them

35:01

instructions to like, you know,

35:03

have a genuine interaction with

35:05

the cashier. Smile, make eye

35:07

contact, and have a brief

35:09

conversation. That was the social

35:12

condition. And then they had

35:14

the efficient condition. Those participants

35:16

were told, make your interaction

35:18

with the cashier as efficient

35:20

as possible, have your money

35:22

ready, and avoid unnecessary conversation.

35:24

And it found that people

35:27

who took the time to

35:29

have a social interaction with

35:31

the barista, that increased people's

35:33

sense of belonging. You

35:43

know the study and its two

35:45

conditions point to one reason many

35:48

of us don't stop to see

35:50

one another and that's because many

35:53

of us in fact are frenetically

35:55

busy and harried as we move

35:57

through the day and it's hard

36:00

to notice the person in front

36:02

of you when you feel like

36:05

you have to be in two

36:07

places at the same time? Yes,

36:09

that is a quite profound observation

36:12

actually, because what makes us busy?

36:14

There's a couple of things that

36:17

lead to it, but in the

36:19

United States, a lot of times

36:21

what makes you busy is an

36:24

inordinate work schedule, kind of overworking,

36:26

can really shrink the amount of

36:29

time we have for the other

36:31

parts of our lives. And if...

36:33

Research like this suggests that if

36:36

you don't kind of give the

36:38

time and space to those unscripted,

36:41

trivial encounters throughout your life, if

36:43

you're always trying to make everything

36:45

so efficient so that you can

36:48

maximize the time that you have

36:50

available for other pursuits, that can

36:52

have well-being effects. I

36:59

mean, it is the case that

37:01

sometimes when we see people who

37:03

are masters of communication, people are

37:06

just really good and fun to

37:08

be around, they often have an

37:11

unhurried air about them. And sometimes

37:13

these are very busy people, but

37:15

they somehow are able to communicate

37:18

a sense that they're not in

37:20

a rush. Yeah, I mean, I've

37:22

seen that too. I'm always amazed.

37:25

One of my brothers, for example,

37:27

is always really good at honoring

37:30

the moment, kind of just being

37:32

there present. with the other person,

37:34

but he's also often late. And

37:37

I, on the other hand, am

37:39

really almost never late. And I

37:42

really need to teach myself to

37:44

pause and who's this person that

37:46

I'm kind of blowing by. Yeah,

37:49

I've had relatives like this as

37:51

well who are often perennially laid,

37:53

but they're often people who are

37:56

more than happy to have a

37:58

conversation and when... you know, they

38:01

ask someone, how are you, and

38:03

the person actually gives you a

38:05

five-minute answer, they actually sit and

38:08

listen, and they will ask follow-up

38:10

questions, and then it's not surprising

38:13

them that they don't show up on

38:15

time to wherever they're going. Yeah, I

38:17

mean, like, maybe we should, we who

38:19

are not late, should be more understanding

38:22

that those who are helping

38:24

to knit us together as a

38:26

society, you know. Seeing

38:33

others for who they truly are

38:35

has many benefits, for their emotions,

38:37

for their health, for their learning.

38:40

It also has benefits for us,

38:42

and yet many of us feel

38:44

it occurs too infrequently in

38:46

our harried world. When we

38:49

come back, how to actually

38:51

see another person and the

38:53

surprising transformations this can produce

38:55

in them and in us? You're

38:58

listening to hidden brain. I'm Shankar

39:00

Vedanta. This

39:14

is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar

39:16

Vedantem. Allison Pew is

39:18

a sociologist at

39:21

Johns Hopkins University. She's the

39:23

author of The Last

39:25

Human Job, the work of

39:28

connecting in a disconnected world.

39:30

Allison says it's possible

39:32

for people to learn to

39:34

get better at seeing other people.

39:37

In fact, she teaches this

39:39

skill to students. Yes,

39:41

I realized... that the in-depth

39:43

interviewing that I do that

39:45

involves this kind of seeing

39:48

is a clinical practice. And

39:50

it's a clinical practice like

39:52

nursing and like teaching and

39:55

like therapy and what do

39:57

all of those professions have in

39:59

common? is they have an

40:01

apprentice model of teaching

40:03

in which someone does

40:05

something in front of

40:07

other people and then

40:09

gets immediate feedback. One

40:12

of the first things that they

40:14

have to do is kind of

40:16

get out of the way and

40:18

I often like to think about

40:20

airspace as like a soccer

40:22

ball and who is controlling

40:25

the soccer ball and you

40:27

want to pass the soccer

40:29

ball. If you're too

40:31

present, then the other

40:33

person just doesn't have

40:36

the space to put

40:38

themselves in there.

40:40

And that can preclude,

40:43

that can impede

40:45

seeing of the other for

40:47

sure. It's

40:53

also the case that sometimes as people

40:55

talk, you know, we have very quick

40:57

interpretations of what it is that they're

40:59

saying, and sometimes we have very quick

41:02

reactions to what they're saying. Talk a

41:04

moment about the importance of trying to

41:06

set those things aside as well, setting

41:09

aside, you know, our assumptions and expectations

41:11

in order to be truly good listeners

41:13

and how difficult that can be to

41:15

do. Yeah, so if you're like completely

41:18

sure that the other person is

41:20

really passionate about such and such

41:22

and you say that to them

41:24

and they're like, no, actually, it's

41:26

more like this, this is what

41:29

I actually care about. You have to

41:31

hear that. And actually, the correcting

41:33

process can help people feel even

41:35

more seen if they are able

41:37

to correct you and you say,

41:39

oh yes, now I get it. The other thing

41:41

I would say is in our quickness to

41:43

leap into... a conversation

41:46

with somebody with our own

41:48

views or assumptions, what I

41:50

think is really important is

41:53

actually hearing what the other

41:55

person is not saying, hearing

41:57

the emotion, that they're not

42:00

naming, if you can hear an

42:02

emotion behind what someone's saying and

42:04

say, well, it sounds like you're

42:06

feeling nervous about that, or it

42:08

sounds like you're feeling... It sounds

42:10

like that gives you a lot

42:12

of pride. You know, it doesn't

42:14

have to be a negative emotion.

42:16

It's like, if you can kind

42:18

of hear whatever emotion is behind,

42:21

that's very powerful for people. If

42:23

they didn't say it, and you

42:25

name it, they feel very seen.

42:27

And kind of in the naming,

42:29

when you're doing that kind of

42:31

naming, you're making it safe for

42:33

them. In some ways, being able

42:35

to get one level below what

42:37

they're saying, to sort of say,

42:39

I can recognize that you're feeling

42:42

pride or I can recognize that

42:44

you're feeling sad, that might be

42:46

even more effective than just simply

42:48

repeating back to people. Here's what

42:50

I'm hearing you say or repeating

42:52

back their words to them, because

42:54

it really shows that you have

42:56

actually... taken in what they have

42:58

said, you understood it, and you're

43:00

actually trying to give the essence

43:03

of it back to them. Exactly.

43:05

That's why it's like, it's a

43:07

boost, a huge boost. Now I

43:09

would also say it's a little

43:11

more challenging, maybe, but it is

43:13

true that if you can bump

43:15

it up a level and go

43:17

to what's not being said out

43:19

loud, but that you really perceive,

43:21

that is very powerful. You

43:31

see, Allison, that if we happen

43:33

to not see someone accurately, if

43:35

we miss see someone, this can

43:37

itself be an opportunity. If we

43:40

stop to show the other person

43:42

that we really do want to

43:44

see them and to correct ourselves,

43:46

you interviewed a therapist whom you

43:49

call Sarah, who told you that

43:51

an episode of miss seeing was

43:53

actually crucial to her patient's progress.

43:56

Can you tell me that story?

43:58

Yeah, so Sarah was a therapist

44:00

at the VA hospital and... So

44:02

she was seeing veterans and she

44:05

said she had, she told me

44:07

about a woman she had been

44:09

seeing who had experienced sexual trauma

44:12

in the military. And at the

44:14

end of like the third or

44:16

fourth week, the woman leaves the

44:18

session with a comment saying that

44:21

she might not be able to

44:23

come back, you know, how she

44:25

might get busy is what she

44:27

said to Sarah. And Sarah said

44:30

to me, you know, something was

44:32

just kind of off. Like it

44:34

didn't feel the same, it just

44:37

didn't feel right. So she calls

44:39

her before the next week and

44:41

she says to her, you know,

44:43

I think I said something, you

44:46

know, I'm wondering if I maybe

44:48

missed something or didn't hear something

44:50

right. The session felt different today

44:52

and I think it could be

44:55

helpful to talk about that if

44:57

you're able to come in again.

44:59

So the woman comes in, she

45:02

comes back and they were able

45:04

to talk. And Sarah said, at

45:06

that point, the relationship really shifted,

45:08

and she ended up making tons

45:11

of progress. And so at the

45:13

end of the treatment, Sarah asks

45:15

the woman, you know, what worked

45:17

for you? And the woman said,

45:20

there was this point where you

45:22

noticed that I wasn't happy with

45:24

whatever you did. And the fact

45:27

that you even noticed that was

45:29

a big deal. And so... Sarah

45:31

took away from that this notion

45:33

of, actually therapists have written about

45:36

this, they call it therapeutic rupture,

45:38

and that if you can redeem

45:40

yourself there, if you manage a

45:42

reconciliation, it can be very powerful.

45:55

So Allison we've seen how you

45:57

know being seen and heard can

45:59

be powerfully transformative to the people

46:02

who are being seen and heard,

46:04

but you also are finding that

46:06

the act of seeing and hearing

46:09

others can be powerfully transformative for

46:11

us. You tell the story of

46:13

a nurse practitioner whom you call

46:16

Birdie. Can you tell me her

46:18

story, Allison? So Birdie was a

46:20

nurse practitioner in California. She had

46:23

this bright smile. a high-beam smile,

46:25

and she was quite kind of

46:27

bustling and friendly and very warm.

46:30

And she told me that she

46:32

had always assumed she would be

46:34

a doctor, like her father, until

46:37

she failed organic chemistry. And she

46:39

then kind of was like, what

46:41

am I going to do next?

46:44

So she actually decides to become

46:46

a nurse practitioner, but even as

46:48

a nurse practitioner, she said, she

46:51

struggled with... ego issues, this is

46:53

what she said. But the good

46:55

thing about being a nurse, she

46:58

said, is that she could focus

47:00

on the human element. And she

47:02

told me an example of what

47:05

she considered really to epitomize what

47:07

nursing meant to her. And that

47:09

was the example of this homeless

47:12

man. He came into her clinic.

47:14

He had been on the streets

47:16

for years. She said he had

47:19

probably walked across country homeless back

47:21

and forth. He had never really

47:23

been in a shelter. She said

47:26

he had some wounds on his

47:28

feet. They were, she said, just

47:30

gnarly, callous. And she said he

47:33

was so hunched over from years

47:35

of osteoporosis and walking and so

47:37

few people would be able to

47:40

even have eye contact with him

47:42

because he physiologically couldn't even really

47:44

look up. And I just sat

47:47

and did wound care for his

47:49

feet. So she just sat and

47:51

washed and cleaned his wounds. And

47:54

she said it wasn't going to

47:56

do much. He was still going

47:58

to be on his feet all

48:00

the time. He was so resistant

48:03

to going into any... shelter, it

48:05

was just a band-aid over a

48:07

really big problem. But for her,

48:10

it captured what nursing was about,

48:12

like this humility, the service, and

48:14

the witnessing. So she said, she

48:17

tells me just to give him

48:19

that moment of I'm seeing you,

48:21

I'm acknowledging you, this is me

48:24

caring for you. She said it

48:26

was powerful for both of us.

48:32

You know, I'm reminded of

48:34

this. new story I just

48:37

saw about Pope Francis in

48:39

2024 he washed and kissed

48:41

the feet of 12 women

48:44

who were incarcerated at a

48:46

prison in Rome. You know

48:49

the Pope was in a

48:51

wheelchair so the women was

48:53

sitting on a raised stage

48:56

and he was wheeled from

48:58

one person to the next.

49:00

What was remarkable to me

49:03

when I watched the video

49:05

of this event was to

49:08

see the reaction of the

49:10

women. I mean uniformly they

49:12

were weeping and it was

49:15

clear that no one had

49:17

put them on a pedestal

49:19

in a pedestal in a

49:22

long time. no one had

49:24

seen them. And so the

49:27

effects of seeing someone really

49:29

has transformative effects on both

49:31

the seeer and the person

49:34

being seen. Exactly. The the

49:36

power of just connecting to

49:38

another human being and by

49:41

doing that connecting you're saying

49:43

to the other person you

49:46

are a person of value.

49:48

You have humanity just like

49:50

I do and together we

49:53

are sharing this moment. It

49:55

confers dignity. and humanity to

49:57

both participants. in the way

50:00

of us seeing one another

50:02

as people. These forces are

50:05

everywhere, and they're systematically making

50:07

it harder for teachers, doctors,

50:09

parents, and caregivers to really

50:12

see and hear the people

50:14

they are working with. If

50:16

you're a subscriber, that episode

50:19

is available right now. It's

50:21

titled, Recovery The Human Touch.

50:24

If you're not yet a

50:26

subscriber, please visit Support. Hidden

50:28

brain.org. If you're using an

50:31

Apple device, you can go

50:33

to Apple.co/Hidden Brain. You'll get

50:35

a free seven-day trial in

50:38

both places, and you'll instantly

50:40

have access to all our

50:43

subscriber-only content. Again, that's Support.hidden

50:45

brain.org or Apple.co/Hidden Brain. Allison

50:55

Pugh is a sociologist at

50:57

Johns Hopkins University. She's the

50:59

author of The Last Human

51:01

Job, the work of connecting

51:03

in a disconnected world. Allison,

51:06

thank you so much for

51:08

joining me today on Hidden

51:10

Brain. Thank you. If you

51:12

have a follow-up question for

51:14

Allison, and you'd be willing

51:16

to share it with the

51:18

hidden brain audience, please record

51:21

a voice memo on your

51:23

phone. Once you've done so,

51:25

email it to us at

51:27

Ideas at Hidden brain.org. That

51:29

email address again is Ideas

51:31

at Hidden brain.org. Use the

51:33

subject line, Connection. Hidden Brain

51:36

is produced by Hidden Brain

51:38

Media. Our audio production team

51:40

includes Annie Murphy Paul, Kristen

51:42

Wong, Laura Quirell, Ryan Katz,

51:44

Autumn Barnes, Andrew Chadwick, and

51:46

Nick Woodbury. Tara Boyle is

51:48

our executive producer. I'm Hidden

51:51

Brain's executive editor. Thanks for

51:53

listening. See you soon.