0:00

This is Hidden Brain. I'm

0:02

Shankar Vedantem. There's an iconic

0:04

episode of the TV show Seinfeld,

0:06

where the character George muses about

0:08

a woman who treated him poorly.

0:10

She took advantage of his

0:12

romantic interest in her, treated

0:15

him like trash, and then discarded

0:17

him. George begins fantasizing

0:19

to his friend Jerry Seinfeld about what

0:21

he would tell the woman if he

0:23

met her again. He would remind her

0:25

of all the ways she treated him

0:28

like dirt. He would stand up for

0:30

himself. He would insist that she

0:32

respect his dignity and apologize.

0:35

Since this is comedy, George of

0:37

course runs into the woman

0:39

shortly thereafter at a social

0:41

gathering. Instead of being brave

0:43

and forthright, he is meek and

0:45

obsequious. He allows her to

0:47

run right over him all over again.

0:50

But in that same scene, another

0:52

woman comes up to Jerry Seinfeld.

0:54

She went on a date with him long

0:56

ago. And she felt he did

0:58

not treat her well. She tells

1:00

him what George had meant to

1:03

say. Remember me? I'm sorry. Mary,

1:05

Kentucky? No? Doesn't ring a bell,

1:07

Jerry? We had a date three

1:10

years ago. Said you'd call me

1:12

the next day. Well, I'm sure

1:14

I meant to call. I probably

1:17

just lost a night. Last

1:21

week on the show, we examined the

1:23

rest of your life and never bumped

1:25

into me again, but you were wrong.

1:27

Jerry, you were wrong. Last week on the

1:29

show, we examined the science of conversation.

1:32

We looked at why an ordinary

1:34

chat is far from ordinary. These

1:36

interactions involve hundreds of

1:39

micro decisions and a delicate

1:41

dance of coordination. If you missed

1:43

that episode, I would urge you to listen

1:45

to it first. You can find it in

1:48

this podcast feed. It's called We Need

1:50

to Talk. Today, we look

1:52

at the conversations we all

1:55

dread, telling someone they treated

1:57

us poorly, demanding a raise.

2:00

taking away an elderly

2:02

relative's car keys. We look

2:04

at what makes difficult conversations

2:07

difficult and a

2:09

series of psychological techniques

2:11

to help you navigate them.

2:13

How to have difficult conversations

2:15

this week on Hidden

2:18

Brain. Sometimes

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Support for Hidden Brain comes

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3:27

Is there a conversation

3:29

you need to have that you keep

3:31

putting off? In your head, do you

3:33

play out this conversation, and

3:36

in every telling... Does it

3:38

end in hurt feelings, misunderstandings,

3:40

and unhappiness? Allison Woodbrooks

3:42

is a behavioral scientist at

3:44

Harvard Business School. She studies

3:47

the art and science of conversations

3:49

and how we can get better at having

3:51

difficult conversations. Allison

3:54

Woodbrooks, welcome to Hidden

3:56

Brain. Thank you so much for having

3:58

me. Allison, one way we

4:00

mishandled difficult conversations is

4:03

that we avoid having

4:05

them altogether. How common

4:07

is saturation? Avoidance is so

4:10

common. It's, and it's common

4:12

in my life too. I'm

4:14

an avoider and so I

4:16

deeply understand why so many

4:19

people avoid having hard conversations.

4:21

They avoid people. that they

4:23

know will be hard to

4:25

interact with, and they avoid

4:28

topics that feel at least

4:30

ahead of time like they're

4:32

going to be very difficult

4:34

for any number of reasons.

4:37

You know I remember many years ago

4:39

as a small child my my grandfather

4:41

you know had rented out an apartment

4:43

to someone and and that that person

4:45

wasn't paying my grandfather the rent and

4:47

my grandfather knew he had to have

4:49

you know a conversation with the tenant

4:51

and basically it was going to be

4:53

a difficult conversation and he was a

4:55

people-pleaser and he hated having difficult conversation

4:57

so so whenever he saw the tenant

4:59

you know come up the other side

5:01

of the road you know he would

5:03

run and hide in the bushes because

5:05

he didn't to have the difficult conversation

5:08

with the tenant. And of

5:10

course, as a small child, you look

5:12

at that and you realize, oh, these

5:14

are difficult conversations. One way to

5:17

handle them is to basically not

5:19

have them at all. That's right. And

5:21

it's not always the wrong instinct, but

5:23

you do have to sort of think

5:25

about. Who is it leading

5:27

us to avoid? And why?

5:30

Why are we avoiding

5:32

these topics? And are

5:34

those reasons good? Are

5:36

they biased? Are they preventing

5:38

us from having a

5:40

deeper relationship? Can you

5:43

think of a conversation

5:45

that you need to

5:47

have with another person

5:50

that you've been putting

5:52

off, Allison? So many.

5:54

I... I feel like I

5:57

avoid certain topics

5:59

off. right now, maybe just

6:01

today. I mean I could

6:03

initiate conversations with

6:05

many of my students for

6:08

example and tell them that

6:10

I don't think that their

6:12

performance in the course so

6:14

far has been terrific and

6:17

that I'm disappointed in them

6:19

and that I think it's

6:21

not only going to affect

6:23

their grade but their learning

6:25

and and also how I

6:27

personally feel about them, right?

6:30

Like it's affecting our relationship

6:32

in a sort of personal

6:34

way. And the way I avoid

6:36

that conversation is by asking my

6:38

assistant to write emails to the

6:41

students and just let them know

6:43

what assignments they're missing, rather

6:45

than starting a conversation

6:48

with, you know, 20 different

6:50

people. that I think will

6:52

be hurtful or unpleasant or

6:54

hard or time-consuming or make

6:57

them feel bad. There's

6:59

so many reasons that I

7:01

that prevent me from sort

7:03

of reaching out one-on-one to

7:06

them. You know, it's interesting,

7:08

Allison, you know, many of

7:10

us think when we are

7:12

subordinates or students or in

7:14

a position where someone else

7:17

has power over us, that

7:19

The manager or the supervisor or the

7:21

administrator has no problem whatsoever telling us

7:23

what they think and feel because of

7:25

course this person has all this power.

7:27

We build them up to have all

7:29

this power in our mind. But I

7:31

think what you're saying is that this

7:33

actually runs both ways. Your students might

7:35

understandably have trepidation coming to you and

7:37

discussing something difficult with you, but you

7:40

have the same problem discussing it with

7:42

them. That's right. It's a

7:44

it's a profound human instinct

7:46

to try to avoid unpleasantness

7:48

or things that you don't

7:50

think will go well and

7:52

often that unpleasantness comes from

7:54

us grappling with this feeling

7:56

torn between honesty and being

7:58

kind and that really has nothing

8:01

to do with status, right? If

8:03

we're grappling with, can I tell

8:05

you the truth? And is that

8:07

going to be hurtful to you?

8:10

So in 2013, you're taught a

8:12

negotiation class about a fictional football

8:14

quarterback named AJ Washington. You were

8:16

a relatively new professor and you

8:18

worked hard to make your presentation

8:21

engaging. You even had planned a

8:23

big reveal at the end of

8:25

the presentation. Can you describe what

8:27

happened that day? I was so

8:30

excited about this day in class.

8:32

It was a case about a

8:34

fictionalized quarterback in the NFL named

8:36

AJ Washington and it had been

8:39

written actually about Tom Brady, our

8:41

famed Boston New England Patriots quarterback,

8:43

and his negotiation over his salary

8:45

and his player contract. So there's

8:47

a big reveal at the end

8:50

of class where I reveal that

8:52

this whole case has been about

8:54

Tom Brady the whole time. and

8:56

I had brought a very important

8:59

prop. to class to share with

9:01

the students at the end of

9:03

this case discussion. And it was

9:05

on loan to me from my

9:08

dear colleague who had been the

9:10

chief operating officer of the New

9:12

England Patriots for a very long

9:14

time and he let me bring

9:16

one of his Super Bowl rings

9:19

to class. Wow. To help with

9:21

this big reveal about Tom Brady

9:23

and I was so excited and

9:25

I made this big show of

9:28

it at the end. I sort

9:30

of lifted it up in the

9:32

air and I knelt down. and

9:34

all the students erupted in applause,

9:36

and they all came down at

9:39

the end of class and wanted

9:41

to take photos with the Super

9:43

Bowl ring, and it was so

9:45

fun. I was very early in

9:48

my career at the business school,

9:50

and I was like, oh man,

9:52

I am nailing this. This client,

9:54

an amazing teacher, this is going

9:57

so good, couldn't be going better.

9:59

But a few days later, I

10:01

got an email, as I so

10:03

often do from students, asking to

10:05

meet with me, and the student

10:08

comes to my office, and I

10:10

have so many meetings with students,

10:12

and the topics are all over

10:14

the map, but I thought that

10:17

he would be asking about a

10:19

job that he'd applied for some

10:21

personal problem that he was coping

10:23

with. Instead, he sort of sat

10:26

down and said, I love the

10:28

class. It's going so great. Thank

10:30

you so much. There's just one

10:32

thing. There's just one thing that

10:34

I want to talk to you

10:37

about. And I was like, oh

10:39

no, geez. And he said, do

10:41

you remember in class when you

10:43

flashed the photo of Tom Brady

10:46

up on your slides? I said,

10:48

oh yeah, that was awesome, wasn't

10:50

it? And he said, yes. But

10:52

you said, you pause on this

10:55

slide and you said, hey ladies,

10:57

enjoy the view. And I said,

10:59

oh yeah, I remember that I

11:01

was going for this big dramatic

11:03

effect and he said, you know,

11:06

framing it that way felt really

11:08

heteronormative. And this was a long

11:10

time ago. This was probably 2013.

11:12

I don't think I had ever

11:15

heard the word heteronormative before. And

11:17

I said, oh my goodness, tell

11:19

me more, what do you mean?

11:21

And he said, well, it made

11:23

it, it kind of felt like

11:26

you were only talking to the

11:28

people who are, like heterosexual, only

11:30

people who are interested in the

11:32

opposite gender in the class. What

11:35

about all the male students who

11:37

wanted to enjoy the view? It's

11:39

worth pausing for a moment and

11:41

asking how you would have responded

11:44

in this situation. You're a teacher.

11:46

and you've just put in a

11:48

lot of thought and effort into

11:50

creating a great presentation. A student

11:52

is upset because of a phrase

11:55

you used. Would you dismiss the

11:57

student as being overly sensitive? To

11:59

walk? Would you even listen? The

12:01

point here is not what you

12:04

would have actually done, but to

12:06

illustrate what happens when we are

12:08

confronted by difficult... conversations. Very often,

12:10

the conversation inside our heads can

12:13

get so loud that we stop

12:15

paying attention to the conversation outside.

12:17

Allison did not tune out the

12:19

student. I thought, whoa, whoa, you're

12:21

right, for sure. I definitely was

12:24

coming from the sort of heteronormative

12:26

perspective and I couldn't have imagined

12:28

that such a sort of a

12:30

moment of levity could be could

12:33

be experienced in that way as

12:35

sort of exclusionary. And I was

12:37

really disappointed in myself. I was

12:39

really I was in my 20s

12:41

still. I was really young as

12:44

a professor and I thought gosh

12:46

of all of the faculty here

12:48

the young woman is the one

12:50

who's getting this wrong and I'm

12:53

so sorry like I really I

12:55

want to be the inclusive one.

12:57

And then he said the sort

12:59

of saddest part of all he

13:02

said well Most professors make me

13:04

feel this way. You're just the

13:06

only one that I feel comfortable

13:08

enough sharing it with. And I

13:10

thought, oh my goodness. I guess

13:13

that's good for me, but so

13:15

bad for us collectively in terms

13:17

of sort of conversational safety and

13:19

the ability to have these hard

13:22

conversations. So

13:30

there's so much going on in

13:32

that story, Allison, and you know,

13:35

as you're telling the story, I'm

13:37

putting myself in your shoes, you

13:39

know, sitting across from the student,

13:41

the student basically says, effectively, you

13:43

know, you were being insensitive when

13:45

you made this joke in class.

13:48

And I can imagine you, you

13:50

know, at that moment, sort of

13:52

tensing up and sort of getting

13:54

a little anxious and getting a

13:56

little worried and feeling a little

13:59

aroused. You know, there's a spotlight

14:01

being trained on you are being

14:03

called out as someone. who is

14:05

an unkind and sensitive person. That's

14:07

right. And we all feel these

14:09

moments, and there are these fleeting

14:12

moments where you have high arousal

14:14

and negative feelings. There's a map

14:16

that scholars call the affective circumplex,

14:18

but my students like to call

14:20

it the wheel of feelings. And

14:23

it's sort of high to low

14:25

arousal on the y-axis and then

14:27

negative to positive on the x-axis.

14:29

And that upper left quadrant is

14:31

this high arousal negative feelings, anger,

14:34

defensiveness, anxiety, your heart starts to

14:36

race, you're feeling bad. And these

14:38

feelings happen in conversation when something

14:40

starts to... not feel right. And

14:42

it's a familiar feeling. And that's

14:44

definitely how I was feeling in

14:47

that moment, this arousal, my heart's

14:49

racing, probably your stress hormones are

14:51

to release in your body. And

14:53

there are a number of ways

14:55

that you can react to it.

14:58

And I think we all grapple

15:00

with, well, should I react? react

15:02

angrily? Do I have the sort

15:04

of self-control to continue engaging in

15:06

this conversation in a way that's

15:08

reasonable and productive? And I mean,

15:11

I think the student did a

15:13

very smart thing by coming and

15:15

talking to you in the privacy

15:17

of her office because in some

15:19

ways now you're having a one-on-one

15:22

conversation if the student had brought

15:24

this up in the class, for

15:26

example, that could have made you

15:28

feel even more defensive and even

15:30

more put on the spot. in

15:32

the class or you know online

15:35

on social media we see this

15:37

happen all the time these yeah

15:39

in my mind really there's it's

15:41

very rare to feel like Any

15:43

topic is too sensitive to discuss,

15:46

but there are so many contexts

15:48

that are too sensitive. I sometimes

15:50

wonder, is there such a thing

15:52

as a sensitive topic, or is

15:54

it all just sensitive contexts? And

15:56

so it was so kind that

15:59

the student came and met one-on-one,

16:01

and also that they started the

16:03

conversation by being so complementary and

16:05

saying, hey, I really love this

16:07

class, I think you're doing such

16:10

an amazing job teaching us, and

16:12

it's because I feel so comfortable

16:14

with you that I feel safe

16:16

sharing this constructive feedback about this

16:18

one moment. When we come back,

16:20

the single most important lesson to

16:23

learn when you are engaged in

16:25

a difficult conversation. You're listening to

16:27

hidden brain, I'm Shankar Vedanta. Support

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18:38

Think back to the last time

18:41

you had a difficult conversation. Maybe

18:43

it was with a manager or

18:45

an employee. Maybe it was with

18:48

a partner or a parent. What

18:50

did it feel like in the

18:52

moments before you had the conversation?

18:55

Did you feel yourself getting tense?

18:57

Did you feel the need to

18:59

get a drink first? Or to

19:02

avoid the conversation altogether? Behavioral scientist

19:04

Allison Woodbrook says that handling difficult

19:06

conversation starts with noticing how we

19:08

respond to them. You cannot be

19:11

an effective interlocutor with someone else

19:13

when you are unaware of how

19:15

you yourself are reacting. Allison got

19:18

a chance to apply her research

19:20

in her own life when a

19:22

student came to her and complained

19:25

that she had been insensitive in

19:27

class. It's recognizing your

19:29

own emotions. It's also trying to

19:31

recognize what your goals are in

19:34

that moment. So emotions are often

19:36

automatic and you get into that

19:38

upper left quadrant those those high

19:40

arousal negative feelings and there are

19:42

these sort of parasympathetic nervous system

19:45

signals that are happening that you

19:47

can't control. But reflecting about what

19:49

your goals are is so important.

19:51

Are you... Are you trying to

19:53

persuade other people to agree with

19:56

you? Are you trying to continue

19:58

to engage in this conversation? Are

20:00

you trying to connect? Are you

20:02

trying to learn from them? Are

20:04

you trying to listen? What we

20:07

found in much of our research

20:09

is that in these moments, when

20:11

you're feeling these high arousal negative

20:13

feelings, it's very natural to have

20:15

goals to defend yourself and to

20:18

persuade other people to agree with

20:20

you. You need to understand me.

20:22

So you start making statements to

20:24

try and persuade them. effective way

20:27

to react in those moments is

20:29

to focus on learning, which is

20:31

not intuitive. So you need to

20:33

learn as much as you can

20:35

about the other person's perspective. Why

20:38

are they, why did they feel

20:40

this way? Why did he feel...

20:42

He clearly felt moved enough that

20:44

he needed to come and give

20:46

me this feedback. Tell me more

20:49

about that, like what was that

20:51

like for you, and how often

20:53

do you feel this way, and

20:55

how could I have said this

20:57

differently? So learning as much as

21:00

you can about the other person's

21:02

perspective is much more effective for

21:04

making the conversation continue in a

21:06

productive way, and ultimately, and ultimately,

21:08

to be more persuasive. because the

21:11

other person is going to see

21:13

you as much more reasonable and

21:15

measured. I mean in some ways

21:17

this is such a profound insight

21:19

Allison because when I think about

21:22

the difficult conversations either that I've

21:24

had or that I need to

21:26

have I do think I have

21:28

approached those conversations with a mindset

21:31

of how do I convince this

21:33

other person about this thing that

21:35

I know is right. I know

21:37

it's right. They don't know it's

21:39

right. My job is to persuade

21:42

them that in some ways they

21:44

are wrong. And in some ways

21:46

you're saying that is the wrong

21:48

way to go about it, that

21:50

the approach, the orientation of persuasion

21:53

in some ways sets us on

21:55

the wrong track when it comes

21:57

to having these difficult conversations. held

21:59

human instinct to feel like you're

22:01

right and you want to persuade

22:04

other people to see your point

22:06

of view and to persuade them

22:08

to agree with you. It's just

22:10

not an effective mindset or effective

22:12

behaviors in the context of a

22:15

live unfolding dialogue because it's impossible,

22:17

it's so difficult to be on

22:19

the receiving end of that. That

22:21

it's hard to continue to listen

22:24

and engage in the ways that

22:26

you need to even keep a

22:28

conversation going. So,

22:37

some time ago, Allison, we featured

22:39

your colleague Julia Minson on Hidden

22:41

Brain. She has studied the effect

22:43

of something called conversational receptiveness, which

22:46

is closely linked to this idea

22:48

of turning a difficult conversation from

22:50

an exercise in persuasion to an

22:52

exercise in learning. What is conversational

22:55

receptiveness, Allison? Julia Minson's work, Hannah

22:57

Collins, Mike Yeoman, this work is

22:59

incredible and groundbreaking on receptiveness. They

23:01

define receptiveness especially in conversation as

23:04

openness to opposing viewpoints. And the

23:06

ability to engage receptively live in

23:08

a live conversation is an incredible

23:10

skill that we can all work

23:13

on and is counterintuitive to most

23:15

people. Can you talk about some

23:17

of the elements of conversational receptiveness?

23:19

Julia Minson and others talk about

23:22

starting with the role of acknowledgement,

23:24

that to actually acknowledge what it

23:26

is that the other person is

23:28

saying to you. That's right, and

23:31

acknowledgment is a very simple thing.

23:33

It's almost like just repeating back

23:35

what you've heard from someone. I

23:37

hear you saying this, right? Is

23:40

that correct? I hear you asking

23:42

this question about receptiveness, Shankar. Is

23:44

that, am I hearing you, right?

23:46

It's sort of this acknowledgement of

23:49

like, I'm listening to you and

23:51

I'm understanding what you're saying. The

23:53

sort of next bump up from

23:56

acknowledgment. is affirmation. So you take

23:58

what another person has said and

24:00

you attach a positive affirmation to

24:02

it. So I say I hear

24:05

what you're saying and also I

24:07

appreciate it. It makes sense that

24:09

you would feel that way about

24:11

this thing. That's great. You're such

24:14

a reasonable person. So this sort

24:16

of affirmation. I love how you

24:18

said. I love how you asked

24:20

this question. It's a great one.

24:23

And so you attach this positive...

24:25

positive attribution and affirmation onto your

24:27

acknowledgement. Now, all of this is

24:29

completely independent from agreement, right? You

24:32

are not necessarily going to go

24:34

on and agree with what they've

24:36

said. They're just making the point

24:38

that linguistically... It's so important to

24:41

start from a place of saying,

24:43

I hear what you're saying, I

24:45

understand it, I like it, I

24:47

think it's reasonable that you feel

24:50

that way, tell me more about

24:52

it, and just maintaining a tone

24:54

that your partner is going to

24:56

be able to continue to engage

24:59

with, whether you go on to

25:01

agree or disagree later in the

25:03

conversation. Another way to think of

25:05

it would be like validation. You

25:08

need to validate their feelings, even

25:10

if you're not going to agree

25:12

with their beliefs. One

25:14

of the things that we often

25:17

do when we're having difficult conversations

25:19

is that we fixate on the

25:21

areas of disagreement that we have

25:24

with someone else. And that's understandable.

25:26

That's what makes a difficult conversation

25:29

difficult. But what are we missing

25:31

when we do that, Allison? It's

25:33

wild. This has been very eye-opening

25:36

for me. When you're in a

25:38

conversation, as soon as you stumble

25:40

across, even any sort of difference,

25:43

when you realize, oh, this person

25:45

feels differently than me, or they

25:48

have a belief that's different than

25:50

mine, or they have a piece

25:52

of their identity that's very different,

25:55

about the 99% of other... that

25:57

we have in common and agree

25:59

about. I mean, really, like, everyone

26:02

wants to feel loved, everyone wants

26:04

to feel safe, everyone wants to

26:06

feel adored and admired, everyone likes

26:09

ice cream, everybody likes being in

26:11

a warm room, right? Like, there's

26:14

so many things that we all

26:16

agree about, and for whatever reason,

26:18

all of those things sort of

26:21

go out the window and we

26:23

fixate on these. little moments of

26:25

disagreement and difference. Yeah, and this

26:28

is not to say that the

26:30

areas of disagreement are not real,

26:32

they are real, but it may

26:35

be that it's actually 15% of

26:37

the painting as opposed to 85%

26:40

of the painting. That's right, and

26:42

we forget about the rest of

26:44

the painting. One

26:54

of the other ideas that Julia

26:56

Minson and others talk about is

26:59

that when we are proposing our

27:01

ideas, so when it's our turn

27:03

to speak, to hedge those ideas

27:05

a little bit, to not speak

27:07

an overly declarative language or confident

27:09

language, to basically say, I think,

27:12

or hear something to think about,

27:14

what does that do in a

27:16

difficult conversation, Allison? It goes back

27:18

to this idea of our instinct

27:20

says that I'm right and I'm

27:23

going to prove to you that

27:25

I'm right and to do that

27:27

I need to say it in

27:29

such a compelling and strong way

27:31

that you can't possibly deny that

27:34

I'm right. We forget that it's

27:36

really hard to be on the

27:38

receiving end of that to be

27:40

the listener and to be receiving

27:42

such like strong statement. righteous sort

27:45

of language and so this point

27:47

about qualifying your language expressing the

27:49

points that you're uncertain about like

27:51

I actually was wondering if this

27:53

or I think I'm pretty sure

27:55

this or I wonder about this

27:58

those qualifications that qualifying language goes

28:00

against our instincts to be strong

28:02

and resolute and decisive, but being

28:04

on the receiving end of it

28:06

makes that person sound so much

28:09

more reasonable and realistic, and it's

28:11

so much easier to engage with

28:13

them. So you're probably detecting a

28:15

theme here, which is all of

28:17

this stuff goes towards the goal

28:20

of being able to continue talking

28:22

to each other in a way

28:24

that's productive and, dare I say,

28:26

enjoyable. Because if we go along

28:28

with our instincts to prove to

28:31

people that we're right, it's very

28:33

hard to continue to have that

28:35

conversation and it's going to spiral

28:37

into a place that's not enjoyable.

28:50

You know, I was talking to another

28:53

guest on Hidden Brain some time ago

28:55

and he used to be a champion,

28:57

you know, debater in high school. And

29:00

of course when you're having a debate,

29:02

you know, you present your strongest argument

29:04

and the other person presents their strongest

29:06

argument and then a judge decides whose

29:09

argument is the best. And he was

29:11

pointing out that in many ways we

29:13

conduct difficult conversations the same way, which

29:16

is we try and prosecute our argument

29:18

and expect the other person is going

29:20

to prosecute their argument. And then imagine...

29:23

that there is some kind of imaginary

29:25

judge who's going to come in and

29:27

give us the prize for coming up

29:30

with the better argument. But of course,

29:32

in real life, there is no judge.

29:34

There is no third party to adjudicate

29:37

and say, your argument was better than

29:39

the other person's argument. Your goal, in

29:41

fact, is to get across to the

29:44

other person and to sort of find

29:46

common ground with the other person. And

29:48

that's very hard to do when you're

29:51

trying to beat the other person into

29:53

a pulpulp. That's exactly right. And there's

29:55

this sort of thought experiment that I

29:58

like to do that I think of

30:00

as my way, your way, the right

30:02

way for almost any task or any

30:05

topic or any issue. Let's just call

30:07

it loading the dishwasher. have my way

30:09

of loading the dishwasher. You have your

30:12

way of loading the dishwasher, but probably

30:14

neither of our ways of loading the

30:16

dishwasher is the objectively correct or optimal

30:19

way of loading the dishwasher. And so

30:21

nitpicking with each other and arguing about,

30:23

well, my way is the best way.

30:25

It's all so silly, especially when neither

30:28

of you knows the sort of ground

30:30

truth objective reality of what's the best

30:32

way. When the emotions we are feeling

30:35

are unhelpfully negative, you say, Allison, that

30:37

we should reframe them in a more

30:39

positive light. Can you explain what you

30:42

mean by that? What do you mean

30:44

by reframing a negative emotion in a

30:46

positive light? When we feel negative emotions,

30:49

which we all do, a lot of

30:51

the time. We have a lot more

30:53

control over how we experience that emotion

30:56

than we would think. So I'll give

30:58

the example of anxiety. When we feel

31:00

anxious, it's a high arousal emotion, it's

31:03

very negative. Our instinct tells us to

31:05

try and calm down, try and get

31:07

rid of that emotion. People go to

31:10

great lengths to try and calm down

31:12

when they're feeling anxious. But calming down

31:14

requires a sort of two-step move. You

31:17

have to reduce your physiological arousal. So

31:19

you're racing heart, your sweaty palms, your

31:21

cortisol in your body. Those things are

31:24

really hard to control. You actually don't

31:26

have a lot of executive control over

31:28

those things. And you're trying to move

31:31

from negative emotion to positive. So it's

31:33

this two-step thing that turns out very

31:35

hard to do, if not impossible. The

31:38

idea of reframing is let's focus on

31:40

the part of it that we do

31:42

have more control over and that's our

31:45

the appraisal of negative versus positive. So

31:47

if you're feeling anxious, what if we

31:49

stay in high arousal world and you

31:51

just say to yourself, you know what?

31:54

I'm excited. Just that small flip helps

31:56

move you from negative valence anxiety to...

31:58

to positive valence excitement. So you can

32:01

see, for example, distress as passion, for

32:03

example, as a way of reframing or

32:05

reappraising the distress that you're experiencing. That's

32:08

exactly right. So I have worked with

32:10

Lizzie Bailey Wolf about this. Often people

32:12

say, I'm stressed, I'm so distressed. But

32:15

you can reframe that for your own

32:17

benefit in saying, no, no, this is

32:19

just a signal that I care about

32:22

it, that I'm passionate. And actually saying

32:24

it out loud is really compelling to

32:26

the people around you as you as

32:29

well. So in some ways

32:31

what I understand you're saying, Allison,

32:33

is that the goal here is

32:35

not so much to change the

32:37

emotion itself, but to shift your

32:40

interpretation of the emotion. That's right.

32:42

Psychologists call this reappraisal. You're shifting

32:44

the appraisal, not how you're feeling

32:46

physiologically, but just how you're thinking

32:48

about and interpreting that feeling. You

32:50

have a colleague Cynthia who has

32:52

a very effective way of reframing

32:55

emotion when a discussion gets too

32:57

heated. What is her technique Allison?

32:59

My colleague Cynthia is amazing. She's

33:01

an incredible teacher and I love

33:03

watching her teach because she constantly

33:05

keeps her her sort of hand

33:08

on the dial, the sort of

33:10

temperature knob of the mood of

33:12

the classroom. And when she feels

33:14

like things are getting too... down

33:16

or sad or angry, she calls

33:18

it out. She says, I'm not

33:21

loving the emotional vibe in here.

33:23

Let's hit the refresh button. And

33:25

she does, even just by labeling

33:27

it and saying, let's hit the

33:29

refresh button, it really helps so

33:31

much. So in other words, just

33:33

like we can call attention to

33:36

what's happening inside our minds and

33:38

label it and say, you know,

33:40

I'm feeling defensive, I'm feeling upset,

33:42

I'm feeling called out, I'm feeling

33:44

threatened. What she is doing is

33:46

saying we can call attention to

33:49

what's happening in the conversation. Notice

33:51

where we are in the chat.

33:53

That's right. It's what makes levity

33:55

so powerful as well. You notice

33:57

if people are getting bored or

33:59

disengaged from the conversation. in those

34:01

moments to realize the emotional tamber

34:04

and to do something about it.

34:06

Switch topics, make a joke, smile,

34:08

give someone a compliment. Just to

34:10

lift the mood is incredibly powerful.

34:13

One error we make in difficult

34:15

conversations is we sometimes try to

34:17

see things from the perspective of

34:20

the other person, which on the

34:22

surface seems like a good thing,

34:24

but the problem is when we

34:26

do this, we imagine how we

34:28

would think and what we would

34:31

do in their circumstances. Talk about

34:33

what happens when we do this,

34:35

Allison. It's such a well-meaning instinct,

34:37

but unfortunately the human mind is

34:40

so egocentric. So we try to

34:42

imagine what another person would be

34:44

thinking and feeling, but we use

34:46

our own thoughts and feelings as

34:49

a sort of proxy, as a

34:51

guess. This is what helps us

34:53

guess how other people are thinking

34:55

and feeling. We're relying on our

34:57

own point of view. And unfortunately,

35:00

no two people are exactly alike.

35:02

Even my twin sister Sarah and

35:04

I are not exactly alike. And

35:06

most people are just incredibly different

35:09

from each other. And we underestimate

35:11

how different other people are from

35:13

us. So very famously, psychologists have

35:15

found that People are just really,

35:18

it's very challenging to take another

35:20

person's perspective. The most direct way

35:22

to take another person's perspective isn't

35:24

to guess, but to ask them

35:27

for it, to ask questions and

35:29

actually hear from their own mouth

35:31

what's going on in their mind.

35:38

When we come back, why

35:40

seemingly innocuous comments can deeply

35:42

hurt another person and a

35:44

magic key to disarming someone

35:46

who is very angry with

35:48

you? You're listening to Hidden

35:51

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That's better help.com/hidden. This is Hidden

37:07

Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. Have you

37:09

ever noticed that when you're having

37:11

a difficult conversation or even a

37:14

conversation that wasn't supposed to be

37:16

difficult, something you say can set

37:19

off another person and send the

37:21

conversation hewar? You were not trying

37:23

to give offense? but the other

37:26

person is deeply offended. At Harvard

37:28

Business School, Allison Woodbrook says she

37:31

teaches her students an exercise to

37:33

avoid such landmines. My students find

37:35

it helpful to use a model

37:38

to think about why these difficult

37:40

moments pop up in conversations, sometimes

37:42

unexpectedly, often unexpectedly, and we use

37:45

a model that we call the

37:47

layers of the earth. Above the

37:50

surface of the earth, this is

37:52

the content of the conversations of

37:54

the words that we're saying to

37:57

each other, the sound, the way...

37:59

we sound to each other are

38:02

nonverbal cues, all the things that

38:04

are observable above the surface. Right

38:06

at the surface of the earth

38:09

are emotions, and sometimes parts of

38:11

our emotions are observable. You can

38:13

tell when I'm getting angry or

38:16

anxious or upset, and sometimes they're

38:18

hidden beneath the surface of the

38:21

earth. Right below that

38:23

layer are our motives or our

38:25

goals. And maybe sometimes I want

38:28

to seek your advice, but you

38:30

don't want to give it. Or

38:32

I want to persuade you, but

38:35

you are not ready to be

38:37

persuaded. When we have incongruous motives,

38:39

it's another way that difficult moments

38:42

can erupt. And then at the

38:44

very core of the earth, of

38:46

course, our differences in our identities.

38:51

And any time conversation shoots down

38:53

to the hot magma of our

38:55

identity, things are going to feel

38:57

really hot and heated and difficult.

38:59

And even sort of easy conversations

39:01

have a way of shooting down

39:03

to that hot magma core of

39:05

our identities in sort of unexpected

39:08

ways. And my students talk about

39:10

this a lot. Like, you know,

39:12

we can, even an innocuous question

39:14

like, oh, where did you get

39:16

your glasses? Or hey, I love

39:18

your hair cut. can feel sort

39:20

of deeply threatening to people if

39:22

they're imagining that this question is

39:24

going to lead to something very

39:26

sensitive about their identity or where

39:28

they're from or their race or

39:30

their gender or their sexual orientation.

39:33

And so what we talk about

39:35

in my class is becoming a

39:37

little bit more aware of differences

39:39

at every layer of the earth.

39:42

So at the surface, where our

39:44

words, are we literally using the

39:46

same, the right words? Are we

39:48

understanding each other and what we

39:50

mean when we're using certain words?

39:52

And often moments of difficulty come

39:54

from like, oh, we're just misunderstanding

39:56

each other. We're using the same

39:58

word to mean different things, or

40:00

we're not talking about the same

40:02

things. Often these differences in our

40:04

emotions cause problems. I want to

40:06

go have fun. You actually want

40:08

to have a deep conversation. We

40:10

have different motives and then of

40:12

course differences in our identities. And

40:15

I think most of the most

40:17

difficult moments in conversation come from

40:19

the moments when you poke an

40:21

invisible barb into somebody's identity. And

40:23

sometimes you realize when it's happened

40:25

and sometimes you don't. It goes

40:27

back to the story of this

40:29

LGBTQ student who came and talked

40:31

to me about making an insensitive

40:33

comment, a heteronormative comment in class.

40:35

I poked an invisible barb into

40:37

an important part of who he

40:39

is and he didn't feel seen

40:41

and acknowledged and valued and worthy

40:43

of care. And so any time

40:45

that we make our conversation partner

40:47

feel like there. We don't understand

40:50

them, we don't see them, and

40:52

we are not making them feel

40:54

worthy of care, it's going to

40:56

cause problems. When

41:06

you were a college student, Allison,

41:09

you and your fellow students found

41:11

yourselves in opposition to an administrator.

41:13

The students saw this administrator as

41:15

an enforcer and they thought that

41:17

she was heavy-handed. They often clashed

41:19

with her. You decided to try

41:21

another approach. Can you tell me

41:24

what happened? So I was a

41:26

member of a club, a social

41:28

club, when I was an undergrad

41:30

and there was a woman there

41:32

whose full-time job it was to

41:34

take care of this beautiful property

41:36

and to keep all the students

41:39

who hung out there and ate

41:41

their meals there to keep them

41:43

safe. And historically, the student members

41:45

of the club had this really

41:47

confrontational sort of oppositional relationship with

41:49

this house manager. And I remember

41:52

watching this oppositional dynamic unfold and

41:54

it really made me feel not

41:56

only un- comfortable, but also I

41:58

started to feel like this isn't

42:00

serving the students well either, because

42:02

it puts her in this enforcer

42:04

position, in this oppositional position, she's

42:07

not going to give us the

42:09

things that we want. And so

42:11

when I became the sort of

42:13

vice president of this club, I

42:15

thought, I'm going to try and

42:17

convince my fellow students, the fellow

42:19

leaders of the club, and this

42:22

woman. Let's reposition ourselves as allies.

42:24

Like why don't we try and

42:26

work together? And so first I

42:28

had to convince the other students

42:30

that this was a good approach.

42:32

That was not easy because there

42:35

was a lot of animosity between

42:37

the students and this house manager.

42:39

But then the really hard conversation

42:41

was facing. facing this woman myself

42:43

and I remember it very vividly.

42:45

It was at her, it was

42:47

in her office, in private, sort

42:50

of woman on woman. I had,

42:52

was the first woman who had

42:54

ever been an officer in this

42:56

club and I went and met

42:58

with her one-on-one and she was

43:00

so... gracious and so grateful when

43:02

I apologized for the behavior of

43:05

all the students historically and how

43:07

unkind they had been and how

43:09

how why this animosity had erupted

43:11

between the students and this house

43:13

manager. I just said I'm so

43:15

sorry like I we don't want

43:18

you to feel that way we

43:20

want to work together we want

43:22

to be on the same team

43:24

here. And she just

43:26

said, thank you so much, thank

43:29

you so much for saying this,

43:31

this sounds so amazing, and we

43:33

both cried, and she was so

43:36

grateful, and it really felt like

43:38

this turning point in the dynamic,

43:40

which did prove out to be

43:43

really great for us going forward.

43:45

It really worked out well. She

43:47

gave the club so much more

43:50

of what we actually wanted. And

43:52

then what was really moving, it

43:55

ended up being one of the

43:57

most meaningful sort of conversations of

43:59

my life. That was, you know,

44:02

15 years ago, and that was

44:04

an inflection. point for the club

44:06

going forward. The students then developed

44:09

a new norm of being friends

44:11

with this woman and being on

44:13

good terms and it continued on

44:16

for the next 15 years. And

44:18

I saw her at my 15th

44:20

college reunion and she looked great.

44:23

She looked so healthy and happy

44:25

and she pulled me aside and

44:28

she said, I just can never

44:30

thank you enough. for having that

44:32

conversation with me and making this

44:35

change. It changed the club for

44:37

the better and it changed my

44:39

life. And it meant so much

44:42

to me. what happens when we

44:44

handle difficult conversations well that there

44:46

is a you know there's a

44:49

huge payoff here a huge you

44:51

know psychological payoff here Yeah, and

44:54

don't get me wrong, it was

44:56

scary to have that conversation. It

44:58

felt like, you know, she didn't

45:01

like the students. She was mad

45:03

at us all the time. We

45:05

were always in trouble, and there

45:08

was so much historical animosity that

45:10

I was trying to sort of

45:12

undo and shake up, and it

45:15

was, it took a lot of

45:17

huts or a lot of courage

45:19

to go in there and try

45:22

and sort of work through it.

45:24

It wasn't easy. One

45:27

of the incredibly difficult and incredibly

45:29

powerful things that you did was

45:31

that you apologized to her for

45:33

the way that she had been

45:35

treated in the past. And I

45:37

think for people who feel like

45:40

they have been wronged or people

45:42

who are in opposition, there's often

45:44

a sense of... you know, sort

45:46

of burning injustice. You know, I'm

45:48

just an administrator. I'm here trying

45:50

to keep the students safe. You

45:52

know, all they have is ill

45:54

will toward me. They treat me

45:56

so badly. No one recognizes what

45:58

I've done. And so you have

46:01

this narrative in your of all

46:03

the ways in which the world

46:05

has been unkind to you, and

46:07

of course the world doesn't constantly

46:09

come and admit that, but when

46:11

someone actually walks in the door

46:13

and says, I'm sorry, it has

46:15

a transformative effect on you. Can

46:17

you talk a little bit about

46:20

the power of apologies in the

46:22

course of having difficult conversations? I

46:24

think as a conversation researcher, as

46:26

a human being, apologies are one

46:28

of the most powerful tools we

46:30

have in our conversational toolkit. They

46:32

are so remarkably powerful. And they're

46:34

quick, right? Like it doesn't take

46:36

that many turns of a conversation

46:38

to deliver an apology. And they're

46:41

just, they can do so much

46:43

good. Even though they're so powerful,

46:45

many people are reluctant to give

46:47

them. Talk a little bit about

46:49

that. Why do you think that

46:51

is, Allison? Given how powerful they

46:53

are, why are we so reluctant

46:55

to deploy them? Apologizing requires that

46:57

you make yourself vulnerable to the

47:00

other person. It feels like it

47:02

requires you to humble yourself. It

47:04

can feel like you are admitting

47:06

that you were wrong in some

47:08

way, and it makes yourself vulnerable

47:10

to the other person because they

47:12

could exploit that and say, oh

47:14

yes, you were wrong, I was

47:16

right. And that just takes an

47:18

incredible amount of humility. But in

47:21

practice, when you go through with

47:23

it and you apologize, it... doesn't

47:25

necessarily equate to an admission of

47:27

blameworthiness, it just feels so good

47:29

for the other person to be

47:31

on the receiving end of it

47:33

that it makes a conversation in

47:35

the relationship so much better. I

47:37

want you to tell me the

47:40

story of when your son Kevin

47:42

was a toddler. I understand to

47:44

the extent that he could talk.

47:46

You had a series of very

47:48

difficult conversations. Tell me how those

47:50

went and what happened, Allison? Oh,

47:52

my sweet Kevin. So Kevin's nine

47:54

now, but back when he was,

47:56

and he's a terrific kid, back

47:58

when he was a... toddler, he

48:01

was a late talker. He was

48:03

really frustrated and he had so

48:05

many big ideas and he couldn't

48:07

express them and so he would

48:09

get really angry and mad and

48:11

yell and scream and sort of

48:13

flop around and and one day

48:15

during one of these sort of

48:17

tantrums he rear his head back

48:20

and he and he sort of

48:22

butted his head right into my

48:24

face and he and he broke

48:26

my nose. And it was so

48:28

painful, and so physically painful, of

48:30

course, but also emotionally painful, like

48:32

as a mother... How do I

48:34

have this child who's capable of

48:36

hurting me in this way? And

48:38

how do I teach him to

48:41

not be this way? And I

48:43

just remember I plopped him down

48:45

and I ran over to the

48:47

mirror to see if my face

48:49

was okay. And it was a

48:51

really dramatic moment that it was

48:53

really hard. And he was so

48:55

young, it was hard to decide

48:57

how to react in that moment.

49:05

I understand that you came back

49:07

to this incident some years later,

49:09

Allison. Can you tell me what

49:11

happened? That's right. It became infamous

49:13

in our family, the nose-breaking incident

49:15

with toddler Kevin, and so over

49:17

time he heard me and my

49:19

husband talk about this moment. We

49:21

told it to him as a

49:23

story, and you know, he learned

49:25

to talk, he learned to regulate

49:27

his emotions, and he sort of

49:29

came to find this story like

49:31

intriguing. Like he couldn't believe that

49:33

he would have behaved that way.

49:35

And one night he was probably

49:37

seven or eight years old and

49:39

we were reading together and he

49:41

was reading one of his favorite

49:43

books at the time, you know,

49:45

diary of a wimpy kid. A

49:47

lot of kids love this series.

49:49

And the main character in the

49:51

story typically can be sort of

49:53

thoughtless and can be kind of

49:55

cruel to his best friend, but

49:58

there was a part of the...

50:00

where Greg apologized to his best

50:02

friend and it was a rare

50:04

moment. It was a very sort

50:06

of kind moment for the character

50:08

in the book and in that

50:10

moment Kevin stopped reading and he

50:12

looked up at me and he

50:14

said, Mom, yeah, and he said,

50:16

do you remember when I broke

50:18

your nose when I was a

50:20

toddler? And I said, oh, yes,

50:22

I do remember Kevin, I don't

50:24

think I'll ever forget. And he

50:26

looked at me right in the

50:28

eyes and he said, Mommy, I'm

50:30

so sorry, I'm so sorry. I'm

50:32

so sorry that I did that

50:34

to you. And my heart just

50:36

sort of burst. In the way

50:38

that I had cried so much

50:40

when he first had broken my

50:42

nose, now I was... I was

50:44

crying again, but this time's out

50:46

of pride. It was such a

50:48

meaningful moment to see how he

50:50

had grown from being Miss Toddler

50:52

struggling so much with language and

50:54

his emotions. And in such a

50:56

short time, maybe five years later

50:58

was in this place or he

51:00

was able to own that and

51:02

apologize and empathize and recognize my

51:04

pain was just incredible. Allison

51:21

Woodbrooks is a behavioral scientist at

51:23

Harvard Business School. She's the author

51:26

of Talk, The Science of Conversation,

51:28

and The Art of Being Ourselves.

51:30

Allison, thank you so much for

51:32

joining me today on Hidden Brain.

51:34

Thank you so much for having

51:36

me. Do

51:46

you have follow-up questions for Allison that

51:48

you'd be willing to share with the

51:50

hidden brain audience? If so, please record

51:53

a voice memo on your phone and

51:55

email it to us at ideas at

51:57

hidden brain.org. That email address again... is

51:59

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52:02

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