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this is Professor Jackson. I'm pleased to announce

1:01

that History That Doesn't Suck is going out

1:03

on the road again with our live stage

1:05

show. If you haven't heard, this is

1:08

the live show where I tell the story of the first

1:10

100 years of American history from

1:12

the Revolution through the Civil War. I

1:14

wrote it for the stage, not the podcast.

1:16

It's meant to be experienced with friends and

1:18

neighbors. So go to

1:20

htdspodcast.com/tour for the latest schedule and

1:23

tickets, and come join me for

1:25

some epic storytelling under the lights

1:27

with video and live musicians. Get

1:30

your tickets and more

1:33

info at htdspodcast.com/tour. That's

1:37

htdspodcast.com/tour.

2:02

Hello, my friends, and welcome

2:04

to a bonus episode of

2:06

History That Doesn't Suck. We're

2:09

following up on our golden

2:11

age of sports, the

2:13

last narrative episode being 165. And this

2:16

is just in time for the start of the

2:18

postseason of baseball. Well, the 2024 postseason

2:20

baseball for all of you listening out

2:22

there in the future. Yes, thank you.

2:24

It is important to timestamp this episode

2:26

for listeners and acknowledge we're talking about

2:29

the US because baseball, just like this

2:31

podcast, it is a timeless international pastime.

2:33

I see what you did there. Well,

2:35

thank you. And a shout out

2:37

here for everyone to all our domestic and international

2:39

listeners. The voice you just heard is Riley Neubauer,

2:42

one of the hardworking writer researchers here

2:44

at HTTPS. It's great to have her

2:46

co hosting with me today because admittedly,

2:48

as much as it hurts me to

2:50

admit that Riley does in fact, no,

2:53

perhaps love baseball even

2:55

more than I do. Though I

2:57

grew up rooting for the Dodgers, still still

2:59

care for the Dodgers, but developed a deep

3:01

and abiding love for the Red Sox while

3:04

living in Boston a little while back. You

3:06

got to be careful with that Red Sox

3:08

one. Well, forgive me, New Yorker. You just

3:10

got to deal with it. Well, I will

3:12

say even though I am a New Yorker,

3:14

I am a Philadelphia Phillies fan. See, so

3:16

you're the one who's got to be careful

3:19

then Riley. You've admitted this now publicly.

3:21

I knew there was a reason I

3:23

liked you though. New

3:26

Yorker who has turned her back

3:28

on the pence drives. Now that I've

3:30

upset everyone in the New York area.

3:33

We'll move on from that digression point being

3:35

today, Riley and I are pleased to share

3:37

an interview with Bob Kendrick, who is the

3:39

president of the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum in

3:41

Kansas City, Missouri. Founded in 1990, the NLBM

3:44

is the world's only museum dedicated to preserving

3:46

and celebrating the rich history of African American

3:48

baseball and its profound impact on the social

3:50

advancement of America. Bob has been associated with

3:52

the museum in one way or another since

3:55

its founding. He was first to volunteer during

3:57

his 10-year newspaper career with the Kansas City

3:59

Star. Today he's the president and

4:02

while he doesn't fashion himself to be a

4:04

historian, Bob has become one of the leading

4:06

authorities on the topic of Negro League's baseball

4:08

history. This was my first time meeting Bob,

4:10

virtually that is. I do hope to meet

4:12

him in person though and visit the museum

4:14

when our live show heads out to his

4:16

area in October 2024. I

4:18

like the way you're getting that plug in there. Well,

4:20

thank you. And our producer would not be happy with

4:22

me if I didn't. So then

4:25

I should tell listeners that

4:27

tour dates and ticket information

4:29

for the history that doesn't

4:31

suck live show is available

4:33

in the episode notes and

4:35

also at htdspodcast.com/tour. You should

4:37

Riley. And it's almost like the plan on you doing that.

4:40

So yes, htdspodcast.com/tour for new

4:42

live show tour dates. But

4:45

again, enough with the digressions. Riley, you

4:47

have met Bob in person. Why don't

4:49

you go ahead and tell everyone how

4:52

that went down? Of course, I met

4:54

Bob back in 2015 when I was

4:56

a kid reporter for Sports Illustrated Kids

4:59

and I was traveling to Kansas City

5:01

with my dad to cover a postseason

5:04

baseball game and to visit the NLBM.

5:07

And I received a wonderful tour of

5:09

the museum by a former museum curator.

5:12

And I got to meet Bob, who as

5:14

we will all hear later on is a

5:16

fantastic storyteller. And he and

5:19

I walked around what might be one of

5:21

my favorite museum exhibits of all time, which

5:24

is a mock infield set up with

5:26

life sized statues of famous

5:28

Negro League's baseball players. And

5:30

Bob had so many incredible tidbits and stories

5:33

about the players that I hadn't seen in

5:35

any of my research kind of coming up

5:37

to the museum. And

5:39

I was so grateful and am so grateful

5:42

that he took the time to meet with

5:44

a young female sports reporter and that I'm

5:46

so honored that he's coming back to speak

5:48

with us today. And today

5:51

is the perfect time to present

5:53

this history of the Negro League's

5:55

because this year Major League Baseball

5:57

has finally incorporated the statistics of

5:59

over over 2,000 Negro Leagues players from 1920

6:01

to 1948 into

6:04

the official record books. And the

6:07

statistics are now a permanent part

6:09

of American professional baseball history, which

6:11

is incredibly exciting. It is,

6:13

and let's get onto this conversation.

6:16

Riley and I are pleased to bring you

6:18

our informative chitchat with Mr. Bob Kendrick. Bob,

6:23

it's a pleasure to have you on today. Thank you so

6:25

much for making the time and joining Riley and I here.

6:28

So diving on in, we

6:30

know that in 1887, the

6:33

Maine Minor League, the International League,

6:35

banned the signing of black players. And

6:38

by the 1890s, black players were limited

6:40

to exhibition games on all black teams

6:42

in the barnstorming circuit. What

6:44

do you think it meant for the country as

6:46

a whole to shift from integrated baseball to segregated

6:49

play? Well, it was a sign of the times.

6:52

You know, segregation was becoming even

6:54

more prevalent than it had been,

6:56

and it was affecting

6:58

our so-called national pastime. And

7:01

so as you alluded, Greg, there

7:03

were black professional baseball players who

7:06

had made their way onto what

7:08

would be considered white professional baseball

7:10

teams, but they just simply could

7:12

not stick and stay. Here

7:15

at the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum,

7:17

we tell the story of Moses

7:19

Fleetwood Walker, who was one of

7:21

those early African-American pioneers who

7:24

played in what would be considered a

7:26

Major League as early as 1883. Moses

7:30

Fleetwood Walker was a bare-handed

7:32

catcher. Oh. Yeah, it

7:35

didn't last long before guys

7:37

like Adrienne Cap-Anson. Cap-Anson, who

7:39

was a white player. And

7:41

others would form, quote unquote,

7:44

a gentleman's agreement that would

7:46

ban blacks from playing on

7:48

what would be considered white

7:50

Major League baseball teams. That

7:54

ban was upheld for six

7:56

decades before Jackie

7:58

Robinson would re-break. essentially, the

8:01

color barrier. But the thing that

8:03

strikes me is that there was

8:05

no written doctrine of any kind.

8:08

This was just a verbalized

8:10

agreement that essentially said if you

8:12

allow a black to play with you, you

8:14

can't play with us. Well, Cap

8:17

Anson, who kind of initiated this,

8:20

well, he was one heck of a

8:22

baseball player. He was an outstanding ball

8:24

player. He is in the National Baseball

8:26

Hall of Fame. And as you can

8:28

well imagine, there were a coalition of

8:30

followers who shared that same sentiment because

8:33

it was pretty easy for him to

8:35

build that coalition of followers. And then

8:37

that would ban blacks for the next

8:39

six decades until Jackie Robinson again rebrakes

8:41

the color barrier. As you're talking, I'm

8:43

thinking to myself, our regular HTS listeners,

8:46

they are undoubtedly connecting the dots. As

8:48

you said, the era, they're

8:50

thinking through the Jim Crow laws, right?

8:52

The black codes that are spreading across

8:54

the country, all the holes that are

8:56

just being punched through the Reconstruction Amendments

8:59

and federal legislation by building us to

9:01

Plessy v. Ferguson and doing that separate

9:03

but equal. I have to say it's

9:05

baffling to imagine without documentation. You know,

9:08

these other things they did with legislation,

9:10

right? Yeah. And so

9:12

this is all just verbal. It

9:14

was just verbal. And again, they

9:16

upheld this for six decades, even

9:20

as the movement was being made

9:22

for integration. And of

9:24

course, when we get to World War II,

9:27

and we're now coming out of World War

9:29

II, and that's oftentimes remind my visitors here

9:31

at the Negro League Baseball Museum, if you

9:33

were going to point to one single event

9:36

that helped usher in integration

9:38

in Major League Baseball, it

9:41

would have been World War II. Because

9:43

you have the irony of young

9:45

black soldiers dying, fighting

9:48

essentially the same racism in

9:50

another country that we were

9:52

being asked to accept here

9:54

at home. And I

9:56

think that started the groundswell of

9:59

sentiment that essentially said, if they

10:01

can die fighting for their country,

10:03

why can't they play baseball in

10:05

this country? And I guess you

10:07

could say that that would give

10:09

Branch Rickey, again, pun intended, the

10:11

ammunition to go try and

10:14

bring Jackie Robinson into the Major Leagues.

10:16

But when you go back and you

10:18

look at how integration played out,

10:21

the Major League owners then would

10:23

be quick to tell you that

10:25

there was no rule governing blacks

10:28

out of Major League Baseball if

10:30

they could find the right one. Now,

10:33

the way that they

10:35

had looked at the right one was

10:37

rather extremist. You know, the

10:40

right one had to be of high

10:42

moral standards. They had to be an

10:44

upstanding citizen, along with a

10:46

great baseball player, had to

10:48

be highly educated. There

10:50

had to be everything that the majority

10:52

of the Major League Baseball workforce wasn't.

10:56

Right. Yeah. And

10:58

so that was their way of

11:00

just trying to keep those black

11:02

players out of Major League

11:04

Baseball. And it took really

11:07

the wit of Branch

11:09

Rickey, who essentially outsmarted them

11:13

that would ultimately open up the

11:15

door for the color barrier

11:17

to fall in Major League Baseball. You

11:19

know, it strikes me, the lack

11:22

of documentation. And that's, of course, incredibly

11:24

different from the way that the Jim

11:26

Crow laws are working. And yet, I'm

11:29

seeing a parallel in enforcing

11:31

Jim Crow. So often, police

11:33

officers, state officials, they would

11:35

always avoid actually charging black

11:37

Americans under the Jim Crow

11:39

law. Right. They'd

11:41

charge them with vagrancy or some other

11:44

way that wouldn't threaten that law actually

11:46

having to experience scrutiny in the court

11:48

system. And that just comes to

11:50

mind as you're telling me. Well. Right.

11:53

On paper. Well, a black player.

11:56

But the reality is. And I think that's

11:59

a very interesting parallel. there and I dare

12:01

to think that there was some similarity for

12:03

sure in terms of how this rule was

12:05

being interpreted. But I think

12:08

for me, and I think this is

12:10

certainly true, most folks

12:12

who are racist don't want you to know

12:14

that they're racist. They

12:16

don't want you to know. And the Major

12:18

League owners didn't want to give the appearance

12:20

that they were excluding anyone. They didn't want

12:22

people to look at them and say, oh,

12:24

they're racist. No. And so

12:27

they could hide behind just Kennesaw

12:29

Mountain Landis, who was in some

12:31

ways maybe even their fall guy,

12:33

because he was doing what I

12:35

think he thought they wanted him

12:37

to do with this exclusionary practice

12:39

that was put in place. But

12:42

they didn't want to be seen

12:44

in that light. And so

12:46

they would. They would just say that kind of,

12:48

you know, idiotic kind of

12:51

statement where you know, there's nothing

12:53

that governs them out if we

12:55

can find the right one. And

12:58

you've got talent surrounding you around

13:00

every corner with tremendous black baseball

13:02

talent. And this notion

13:05

that the athletes in the Negro

13:07

Leagues weren't smart enough to play

13:09

in the Major Leagues. That

13:11

was also very prevalent. And

13:14

as I tell my guests, first and

13:16

foremost, I don't know when you had

13:18

to be a Rhodes Scholar to play

13:20

baseball. But

13:22

there was this kind of underlying

13:24

mindset that the players in the

13:27

Negro Leagues, as it was stated

13:29

in a letter written by Larry McPhail, lacked

13:32

the faculties to play

13:34

in the Major Leagues. Wow. But

13:36

here's the interesting twist to that story. Over

13:40

40 percent of the

13:42

athletes that played in the

13:44

Negro Leagues had some level of

13:47

college education. Less

13:49

than five percent of those who

13:51

played in the Major Leagues at

13:53

the same time had any college

13:55

education for the simple reason then

13:57

the Major Leagues didn't want you.

14:00

to go to college. They got you right

14:02

out of high school if you went to

14:04

high school, put you into their farm system,

14:06

and then you would eventually work your way

14:09

to the big leagues. Well, the

14:11

Negro Leagues didn't have that kind of

14:13

sophisticated farm system. So what did they

14:16

do? They trained

14:18

on the campuses of historically

14:20

black colleges and universities. They

14:23

would then play the black college baseball

14:25

teams, and they recruited

14:27

a great deal of their

14:30

workforce from those HBCUs. So

14:32

in actuality, they had a

14:34

disproportionate number of college-educated athletes

14:37

in comparison to those who

14:39

were playing in the major

14:41

leagues at the same time.

14:44

Jackie Robinson walked into a

14:46

clubhouse, y'all, where he was

14:49

likely the most intellectual being

14:52

in that clubhouse because, as you know,

14:54

he had gone to Pasadena City College

14:56

and UCLA. I'm not

14:58

sure another Dodger had stepped foot

15:01

on a college campus. And so

15:04

none of that

15:06

actually made any

15:08

sense. And we kind of shed

15:10

light on what was

15:13

really driving this exclusion,

15:15

particularly as it related to when

15:17

the Negro Leagues became formalized, and

15:20

now the Negro Leagues are actually making

15:22

money for Major League

15:25

Baseball. As I tell my guests all

15:27

the time, anytime they say it

15:29

ain't about the money, it's

15:31

always about the money. I go back to

15:33

a letter that

15:39

we acquired several years ago,

15:41

and this was a

15:44

significant acquisition. I can't

15:46

remember what we paid, but we're probably still paying

15:48

for it. It's hard for us

15:50

to go out and buy the artifacts

15:54

because the private collectors are

15:56

basically gobbling them all up. They can

15:58

control the market. have unlimited

16:01

wealth and we have

16:03

very limited budgets to go out

16:05

and compete against them. But this

16:07

piece was something that I knew

16:09

we had to have. And I

16:11

told my then curator that we

16:13

needed to go get it. And

16:15

this piece was a letter that

16:17

I had referenced earlier that was

16:19

written by Larry MacPhail. Larry MacPhail

16:21

was then the managing partner of

16:23

the New York Yankees. And

16:25

this letter was written near the end of 1945. New York City

16:27

mayor Fiorello LaGuardia.

16:31

Who was in office both during the

16:33

Great Depression and World War Two. Both

16:35

topics will be covering shortly on HTTPS.

16:37

Same person that they put his name

16:39

for today. He and

16:41

others were really pushing the charge

16:43

for integration in Major League Baseball.

16:47

And the mayor had put together a

16:49

commission to examine

16:51

integration. Larry MacPhail was on

16:53

that commission and he writes

16:56

what was called the MacPhail

16:58

memorandum. And as I

17:00

mentioned we acquired this letter several years ago. And

17:03

what I find so intriguing about the letter

17:06

is that throughout the body of the

17:08

letter MacPhail who is

17:10

outlining why integration is such

17:13

a bad idea. He

17:15

actually offers up some points

17:17

of validity. For instance he

17:20

would say if we

17:22

sign Negro League players we

17:24

will put the Negro Leagues out

17:26

of business. He's absolutely

17:29

right. That was going

17:31

to be the byproduct of

17:33

integration. He would also go

17:35

on to say you know we can't just go

17:37

take their players away

17:39

from them because they are bound

17:42

by legal contract. Well

17:45

again he's absolutely

17:47

right. Now Branch Rickey

17:49

didn't think so. Branch Rickey didn't

17:51

think that the contract in Negro

17:53

Leagues were worth a piece of

17:56

paper that they were written on.

17:58

And contrary to popular belief he

18:00

did. not sign Jackie Robinson to

18:03

the Brooklyn Dodgers. Guys,

18:05

he took Jackie

18:07

Robinson away from the

18:09

Kansas City Monarchs. He never paid

18:11

the Kansas City Monarchs, as

18:14

my mother would say, my late mother would

18:16

say not one red cent for

18:18

a ballplayer who was under contract.

18:21

J.L. Wilkinson never got compensated. That

18:23

is wild. Uh-huh, which is a

18:25

whole other story in his own

18:28

right. Yeah. But then he

18:31

made the outlandish statement that they lacked

18:33

the faculties to play in that league,

18:35

which of course we know was just

18:38

hogwash. Sure. But then

18:40

he finally gets to the crux of the matter. By

18:43

the time that letter was written in 1945, the

18:46

New York Yankees had made nearly $100,000 off

18:48

the Negro Leagues. They

18:53

were renting Yankee Stadium. They

18:55

were renting Rupert Stadium across the

18:57

river in Newark, and they

18:59

were renting Blue Stadium here in

19:02

Kansas City, their minor league affiliates.

19:04

Ah. They were in

19:06

no hurry to see integration because

19:08

they did not want to lose

19:10

that source of revenue. It is

19:12

no small wonder that the Yankees

19:14

were at the tail end of

19:16

integration. That's both fascinating and disappointing,

19:18

especially as a New Yorker. Yes,

19:20

and as you said, Bob, it's

19:22

always about the money. Now, you

19:25

could make a legitimate argument that

19:27

the Yankees didn't need a black

19:29

player. They had good teams

19:31

historically. They always had good teams. But

19:34

$100,000, guys, is a lot of money to date. Right.

19:39

But $100,000 in 1945. Oh,

19:43

that's a fortune. Exactly. And you didn't have to

19:46

work for that money. All you

19:48

had to do was sign on the

19:50

dotted line. They were in

19:52

no hurry to lose that source

19:54

of revenue. Right. And

19:56

they weren't alone. Clark Griffith, there

19:58

in Washington, D.C. He

20:00

owned the Washington Senators. He

20:03

was watching Buck

20:05

Leonard and Josh Gibson tear

20:07

up the ballpark there, and

20:10

Leonard was ripping line drives all

20:13

over the stadium, making dazzling plays

20:15

at first base. Josh

20:17

Gibson was hitting balls where

20:19

no mere mortal had ever hit them.

20:23

But on the flip side of the legend, he

20:25

was also watching all these black folks

20:28

fill up his ballpark there

20:30

at Griffith Stadium. They were

20:33

out drawing the Washington Senators. And

20:36

he was torn. He wanted

20:38

to sign Buck Leonard and Josh

20:40

Gibson well before

20:42

Branch Rickey made the move to go get Jackie

20:44

Robinson. Now, two things

20:46

are in play here. Number one, he

20:48

knows he's going to be ostracized by his peers. This

20:51

was going to create a fight. And

20:53

maybe the timing wasn't quite as right, because

20:56

now we're in the early 1940s, and

20:58

so we're still in the midst of World War II. And

21:01

so the timing may not have been right. But the other

21:03

thing that he's grappling against was what I

21:05

said earlier. He's watching black folks

21:07

fill up his ballpark. Uh-huh. And he's

21:09

getting a percentage of the gate, and

21:12

likely all of the concessions. Yeah, he doesn't want

21:14

to interrupt that flow. He's feeling great about that.

21:16

No, you don't want to interrupt this. And

21:19

that's why I say, anytime they say

21:21

it ain't about the money, it is

21:23

always about the money. Wow,

21:26

OK. You know, I was thinking to

21:28

myself and wanted to drill a little deeper on

21:31

why integration would hold off

21:33

more in baseball as opposed to other spaces.

21:35

I think you just answered that question for

21:37

me, Bob. You

21:40

know what I find so interesting? Yeah, go ahead. Is

21:42

that Major League Baseball has really

21:45

been the only one of the major

21:47

sports that has always been

21:50

challenged by its racist

21:52

past. People forget, the NFL

21:55

and the NBA, they let blacks play

21:57

either. But baseball seems

21:59

to be the one. that has always

22:02

been questioned about its racist past,

22:04

but baseball has also led the

22:06

way in basically

22:08

acknowledging and honoring the

22:11

Negro Leagues, the league that was

22:13

created because of his racist past.

22:16

And perhaps it's because baseball is

22:18

considered still our national pastime. But

22:20

the other sports have not had

22:22

to address the fact that they

22:24

were exclusionary in their own processes

22:27

as well. Fritz Pollard

22:30

becomes the first black to play in

22:32

what will be considered the National Football League in

22:35

1920, the same year that

22:37

the Negro Leagues were being established

22:40

here in Kansas City. Well,

22:42

Fritz Pollard and several other

22:44

brothers were exiled from the

22:47

NFL the same way that

22:49

Moses Fleetwood Walker was exiled

22:51

for Major League Baseball. And

22:53

then in 1946, Jackie

22:56

Robinson's UCLA backfield teammate, Kenny

23:00

Washington would re-break the color barrier

23:02

in the National Football League. Yeah,

23:04

you know, I get two thoughts as

23:07

you say that. One, think spot on

23:09

baseball being our national pastime, even

23:12

if that's more of an emotional thing these

23:14

days, right? With how popular football has become

23:16

in basketball. But baseball, it's still kind of

23:18

the sport that's the

23:20

soul of America in some sort of way. It

23:23

makes me wonder if baseball actually

23:25

making any sort of effort to

23:27

acknowledge that past, ironically,

23:29

the other sports get a pass

23:31

by basically by ignoring it.

23:34

I think so. Yeah. I think there's

23:36

some merit to that, which

23:38

again, leads you to question, they've never

23:40

really had to address what

23:43

took place in those leagues. Now

23:46

there's been some acknowledgement over recent

23:48

times more trivial than

23:50

nature, but baseball has

23:53

always seemingly was held accountable

23:55

for its sins. Yeah. But

23:58

baseball has also been the one that

24:00

had... has more frequently addressed those issues.

24:03

And you can see what has happened over recent

24:05

times as they've paid recognition

24:08

to the Negro Leagues. They came

24:10

to grips with the

24:13

errors of their ways. And

24:16

this long overdue recognition that we've

24:18

been seeing there as

24:20

it relates to certain milestones in

24:23

Negro Leagues history is something that

24:25

none of the other sports have

24:27

even remotely been asked to do. And

24:30

you can't help but commend baseball for

24:33

addressing and dealing and enlightening people along

24:35

the way. We're gonna take a quick

24:37

break. And when we come back, Bob's

24:39

going to tell us about how the

24:41

Negro Leagues embodied the American spirit and

24:43

led the way on the international stage.

24:49

This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. October

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Iconic Agua. Where hydration meets

25:45

greatness. Hello, this is

25:47

Professor Greg Jackson with a special announcement.

25:49

I'm back on the road and coming

25:52

to the Bay Area for two live

25:54

shows of History That Doesn't Suck on

25:56

Friday, November 15th in Petaluma at the

25:58

Mystic Theater. And on Saturday, November 16th.

26:00

in Monterey at the Golden State Theatre.

26:02

It's a storytelling event with live musicians

26:04

and video. We'll time travel together from

26:06

1776 through 1865, revisiting

26:08

consequential battles on the field and in

26:11

the halls of Congress in this epic

26:13

story of a remarkable union of American

26:15

states. It won't be

26:17

recorded for the podcast, you've

26:19

got to be there in

26:21

person. Tickets and more info

26:24

at htdspodcast.com/tour to see me

26:26

live in Petaluma on Friday,

26:28

November 15th and in Monterey

26:30

on Saturday, November 16th. Go

26:32

to htdspodcast.com/tour for tickets. I

26:44

just recently I was watching the Giants

26:46

Cardinals game at Rickwood Field and I

26:48

saw you come on screen to do

26:50

some of the interviews talking about what

26:52

it means to have the Negro Leagues and

26:55

their legacy honored in such

26:57

a way with a Major League Baseball

26:59

game at Rickwood Field and I'm

27:01

wondering if you can talk a little bit about what it

27:03

was like to be in that environment and to be experiencing

27:06

a Major League game in what used to be

27:08

a Negro League stadium. I've been

27:10

trying to summarize what that experience has

27:12

been and the one word that keeps

27:15

coming back to me is

27:17

magical. It was

27:19

one of the most magical events and

27:23

particularly baseball events that I've ever been involved

27:25

with. It was just an

27:27

amazing experience from the moment that I

27:29

stepped on the premises there at Rickwood

27:31

Field you felt like you had been

27:33

transported back in time and

27:36

I never got to experience a

27:38

Negro Leagues game but having

27:41

heard so many folks talk about the excitement

27:43

of what it was like to be at

27:45

a Negro Leagues game I could only imagine

27:47

that we were very fortunate

27:50

to capture that spirit

27:52

there at Rickwood Field and

27:55

I commend my friends over at Major

27:57

League Baseball and the city of Birmingham

27:59

for what they did. what they were able to do.

28:03

And it was just a tremendously

28:05

proud moment. I think not just

28:07

for me, but our staff here

28:09

at the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum

28:11

and all of those who were

28:13

stewards of this story. To

28:16

see that epic event unfold,

28:19

the only diminishing aspect of this

28:21

was the passing of

28:23

Mr. Mays, Willie Mays, the legendary Willie

28:25

Mays, who we lost

28:27

still too early, even at 93.

28:31

We lost him too early. And

28:33

but in its own poetic way, his

28:36

passing drew even more eyeballs

28:39

to this major epic national

28:42

televised game. And

28:44

it was just so

28:46

profound to see those Negro League

28:49

players who had gathered there. And

28:52

obviously, this was done in the

28:54

spirit of Mr. Mays. And everyone was hopeful

28:56

that he too would be back there at

28:59

a place that started

29:02

and launched his professional baseball

29:04

career, where he was 17 years old,

29:07

patrolling center field for

29:09

the Birmingham Black Baron.

29:12

And he would

29:15

not have wanted the spotlight to be just

29:17

on him. He would have

29:19

wanted his other colleagues to

29:21

get their shine as well. And

29:24

that's exactly what happened. But

29:26

it was a tremendous celebration.

29:28

I still can't believe that

29:30

my friends over at Foxport

29:32

gave me essentially 30 minutes

29:34

of national TV airtime to

29:36

tell stories. But I

29:39

am thrilled that so many baseball fans

29:41

enjoyed the stories that I was sharing.

29:43

And they took the opportunity to send

29:45

messages and other

29:47

notes via social media, just

29:49

about how much they enjoyed that experience

29:52

as well. But to be there, you

29:55

just felt that spirit. I mean, even watching

29:57

on TV, I could feel some of that

29:59

spirit. especially from the stories you were telling.

30:02

I've noticed in those interviews and in

30:05

those stories, you've talked about how the

30:07

style of play and the attitude that

30:09

Negro League Baseball players had was very

30:11

different from White Major League Baseball.

30:13

I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit more

30:15

about that with us. Well, Major

30:18

League Baseball in that era,

30:20

before Jackie Robinson breaks the

30:22

color barrier, was essentially a

30:24

base-to-base kind of game. Nothing

30:26

wrong with that. The

30:28

guys would get up, set the table, get on

30:30

base. They moved that guy over

30:32

into scoring position. And then the big hitters

30:34

came in and drove them in. Again,

30:37

nothing wrong with that. But

30:39

the pace of play in the Negro

30:41

Leagues was fast, aggressive,

30:45

daring. They'd bunt their way on.

30:48

They'd steal second. They would steal third.

30:51

And guys, if you weren't too smart, they

30:53

were stealing home. And so

30:56

it was indeed a far more exciting

30:58

brand of baseball. As my friend, the

31:00

late, great Buck O'Neill, would say, you

31:03

couldn't go to the concession stands

31:06

because you might miss something that you

31:08

ain't never seen before. And

31:11

the Major Leagues back then would

31:13

accuse the Negro League players of

31:15

showboating. So if a guy

31:18

dove in the hole, flipped it

31:20

behind his back and started to

31:22

double play, they would say, oh,

31:24

he's showboating. Well, today, that is

31:26

a celebrated top 10 sports highlight

31:28

virtually every day of the week

31:30

when those things happen. But

31:33

as my friend Buck O'Neill would say,

31:35

and this is so poignant, number one,

31:37

if you got something to show, show it.

31:41

Yeah, don't be afraid to show it. And

31:44

number two is only

31:46

showboating when you can't do

31:48

it. I

31:51

love it. I love it. That

31:55

is good. Let's expand

31:57

what some listeners might understand is who's.

31:59

playing in the Negro Leagues. Yes. It's

32:02

interesting. I think we're talking about that.

32:04

The Negro Leagues really accepted, well,

32:07

anyone who wasn't able to play in the White

32:10

Leagues, right? That's the beauty of the Negro Leagues

32:12

because the Negro Leagues, they

32:14

just refused to succumb

32:16

to treating others the way that they

32:18

were being treated. Yeah. The

32:20

Negro Leagues didn't care what color you were. They

32:23

didn't care what gender you were. Yeah. Can

32:25

you play? Do you have

32:27

something to offer? That's the

32:29

way it is supposed to be. That's

32:31

why I say that the Negro

32:34

Leagues embodies the American spirit, unlike

32:36

any story in the annals of

32:39

American history. It is everything that

32:41

America prides itself in being. It's

32:44

not there yet. Yeah. But America

32:46

has best like the idea, right? Exactly. The

32:49

idea behind it. Yeah. But because it's not

32:51

there yet, that means it is not the

32:53

greatest country in the world. It just means

32:55

that there's still work left to be done.

32:58

Through the lens of these

33:00

incredibly courageous and talented athletes,

33:02

my visitors, I think, gain

33:04

a greater appreciation for why

33:06

diversity, equity, and inclusion are

33:09

to be so valued and how

33:11

they are, indeed, pillars

33:14

for building a bridge for tolerance

33:16

and respect. You're right.

33:19

The Negro League players welcomed

33:21

anyone. Yeah. There were

33:23

Spanish-speaking athletes who called the Negro Leagues

33:25

home. There were a

33:27

handful of white athletes that called the

33:30

Negro Leagues home. There were

33:32

three pioneering women who called the

33:34

Negro Leagues home. And

33:37

our game, which is a

33:39

global game, as you

33:41

both know, you can look

33:43

at a Major League roster on

33:45

any given day of the week,

33:48

and you see so many

33:50

different ethnicities that make up

33:52

those Major League rosters. Right.

33:55

When you go back and examine the

33:57

history of the Negro Leagues, you'll find

33:59

that our game... is a global game

34:02

because of the Negro Leagues. They

34:04

took this game to all parts

34:06

of the globe. They would go

34:09

into Canada, barnstorming their way into

34:11

Canada. They were oftentimes the first

34:14

Americans to play in

34:16

many Spanish speaking countries. It

34:18

was a touring team of Negro Leaguers

34:21

who would make their way to Japan

34:23

in 1927. Guys,

34:25

that's seven years before Babe Ruth

34:27

and his all Americans would go

34:29

to Japan taking this

34:31

brand of professional baseball. Now

34:34

the Japanese had been playing baseball,

34:36

but they had not seen this

34:39

brand of professional American baseball until

34:41

a team called the Philadelphia Royal

34:43

Giants go over and play a

34:45

historic exhibition series, a

34:48

24 game series where they go some 23,

34:52

0, and 1. The tour was so successful that seven years later, Babe

34:56

Ruth and his all Americans would

34:59

make their way to Japan. We have

35:01

some very rare memorabilia from

35:03

that tour of Japan. And

35:05

I had the tremendous honor of showing

35:07

that memorabilia to our dear friend, former

35:11

Japanese Major League star Ichiro Suzuki. And

35:17

y'all, you made up like a man. And

35:20

y'all, you made up like a Christmas

35:22

tree. Yeah, he had no idea. Oh

35:26

man, it was special. You had no idea that

35:28

these brothers had been to his native home, and

35:31

early as 1927. And

35:34

the memorabilia that we have, it is

35:36

written in old Japanese, but he was

35:38

actually able to interpret what was on

35:40

the cover of the Game Day magazine.

35:42

And so when you talk to the

35:44

older Japanese baseball

35:46

historian, they credit

35:48

that tour of 1927 and

35:51

a subsequent tour by the same

35:53

Philadelphia Royal Giant team as

35:56

being the spark that ignited the

35:58

flame that is now the. fire

36:01

for professional baseball in Japan. Wow.

36:04

I mean, it's just fascinating to think about

36:06

that ripple effect across

36:08

history that Negro Leagues have on

36:11

bringing us to what we have today.

36:13

That's one of the reasons why Buck

36:15

O'Neill and Ichiro Suzuki

36:18

became somewhat kindred spirits.

36:21

Because when Ichiro came from Japan

36:23

over to this country, there

36:27

were so many naysayers that

36:30

said, now his kid had put up 3,000 hits there in

36:32

Japan. And

36:34

all the naysayers were saying, well, you did that

36:36

in your league, but you won't do it in

36:38

our league. Guess what? They

36:41

said the same thing about the players from

36:43

the Negro Leagues. You did

36:45

this in your league, but you won't do

36:47

it in our league. And what happens? Ichiro

36:50

comes over here and does

36:52

the exact same thing. A

36:55

great athlete is a great athlete. I

36:57

don't care where you come from. And

37:00

Buck used to hang out at the

37:02

Cape. So when the opposing teams came

37:04

into town, Buck didn't just

37:06

hang out with our Kansas City Royal guys.

37:09

He would sit around the cage, and he

37:11

talked to any and everybody. And Ichiro

37:13

would go on to say that he admired

37:16

Buck's style. Buck

37:19

was this classily dressed

37:21

gentleman, and they just

37:23

hit it off. And

37:25

that was a mutual admiration, because

37:27

Buck understood what this kid from

37:29

Japan was going to have to

37:31

endure. He was essentially going to

37:33

have to prove himself because of

37:35

what the naysayers were saying, just

37:38

as he and the other players

37:40

from the Negro Leagues, once the

37:42

color barrier is knocked down, those

37:45

athletes had to prove themselves, because

37:47

the naysayers were plentiful. You

37:49

won't do this in our league. And

37:51

guess what? They ripped up

37:53

that league as well. Challenge

37:58

accepted, right? Exactly. That's it.

38:01

It's amazing that they became somewhat of

38:03

like stars and icons for the entirety

38:05

of America, but also for the world.

38:08

And I would imagine also more specifically

38:10

for the local black community. I'm wondering

38:12

if you could tell us a little bit about

38:15

what the Negro League was represented for non-baseball players.

38:18

In the African American community,

38:20

the Negro Leagues were a

38:22

tremendous source of pride because

38:24

it was inherently

38:26

ours. Now it

38:29

was shared with others, but

38:31

it was inherently ours and

38:34

we supported it tremendously. And

38:37

as I tell folks, there was

38:39

nothing recreational about a

38:41

Negro Leagues game. It

38:43

was the social event of

38:45

the week. Yeah,

38:48

Riley, you went to see and

38:51

you went to be seen. So

38:53

you go have on as the guys

38:55

would say, your fineries when you went

38:58

to the ballpark. And a lot of

39:00

times we were leaving church because so

39:02

many of the Negro League games were

39:04

held on Sunday when they could get

39:06

access to the Major League ballparks. And

39:09

so we're leaving church anyway. And

39:12

Negro Leagues baseball was so popular

39:15

that black churches would move their

39:18

service time up an hour. So

39:21

folks could go to the game. Now

39:23

as I tell my guests, if you

39:25

know anything about the black

39:27

church, you don't mess

39:30

with service time. 11

39:32

o'clock Sunday go to meeting. Well

39:34

here in Kansas City, when the Kansas City monarchs

39:36

were at home, Sunday service

39:38

would start at 10 o'clock and

39:41

everybody left going to that Sunday

39:43

double header dressed to the nines

39:45

as they would say, looking

39:48

good. And so it was a

39:50

social event that

39:52

generated so much pride.

39:55

And at a time when

39:59

black folks. were being treated

40:02

in such a way they

40:04

needed something to hold on to.

40:07

But that's also why those

40:09

African-American communities were so strong.

40:12

So while segregation was a

40:15

horrible chapter in this country's

40:17

history, what segregation did

40:20

was it forced a very

40:22

close-knit community. And

40:24

what it did was it forced

40:28

us to have our own businesses.

40:32

And when you examine Negro Leagues baseball

40:34

in a much deeper perspective,

40:38

the success of the Negro Leagues drove

40:40

the success of many of those, as

40:42

I define them, segregated,

40:44

mandated, black-owned businesses.

40:47

So good case in point here at

40:49

18th and Vine, where the Negro League

40:51

Baseball Museum operates to this day. 18th

40:54

and Vine, y'all, once

40:56

upon a time was as

40:58

recognized street cross-section as there

41:00

was anywhere in the world

41:02

because you had that intrinsic

41:05

mixture of jazz and baseball

41:07

radiating from this one street

41:09

corner. It was the epicenter

41:11

of black life in Kansas

41:13

City, both business and entertainment.

41:15

Now 12th and Vine had a lot

41:17

of entertainment, but you also have to

41:19

remember that in Kansas City,

41:21

black folks could not live beyond

41:24

about a 13 block radius.

41:27

You couldn't go outside those 13 blocks, but

41:31

within those 13 blocks,

41:33

you had everything you

41:36

needed and so much

41:38

of it when it came to entertainment that

41:40

others were coming in to get some of

41:42

it. When we

41:44

go back and examine integration in

41:46

baseball, which ultimately

41:49

triggered integration in a broader

41:51

spectrum in our society, that

41:55

was the very thing that killed the

41:57

Negro Leagues and then

41:59

the ripple. impact was it

42:02

killed black economy. And

42:06

so on so many levels this

42:08

is indeed a bitter

42:10

sweet story because

42:13

those smaller black-owned

42:15

businesses once integration

42:17

occurs could no

42:20

longer compete with their mainstream

42:22

counterparts. But at the

42:24

same time we were seeing this

42:27

transitioning going on in the Negro leagues

42:29

where its great black stars were leaving

42:31

to go to the major leagues. This

42:34

creates a natural curiosity.

42:37

Black folks had been waiting and hoping

42:39

that one day their great

42:42

black stars would get that opportunity to

42:44

compete in the major leagues. So what

42:46

did we do? We

42:48

left the Negro leagues to go

42:50

see Jackie, to go see

42:52

Larry Doby, to go see

42:55

Satchel Page, Don Newcomb, and the

42:57

others who would transition in and

43:00

ultimately that led to the demise

43:02

of the Negro leagues and

43:05

to a larger extent the

43:08

demise of black economy. Yeah, bitter

43:10

sweet is the only word to

43:12

describe that, isn't it? You know

43:14

honestly Greg I don't know if

43:16

we truly

43:19

understood what we were

43:22

losing when we lost the

43:24

Negro leagues. It was a

43:26

natural inclination to want to see how

43:28

they would fare if they

43:30

got the opportunity to play with

43:33

and against their white counterparts. Now we've

43:35

watched them play countless exhibition games. You

43:37

talked about that earlier in the show

43:39

and the record books bear out that

43:41

the Negro leagues or the

43:43

black all-star teams won the more

43:45

majority of their head-to-head match-ups against

43:47

their white counterparts. But this

43:49

was a natural curiosity to want to see

43:52

what would happen and of

43:54

course the economy was such that you

43:56

couldn't support two baseball leagues. So the

43:58

Negro leagues died. had a slow debt,

44:01

but it was a imminent

44:04

death. It wasn't a matter of if, it was

44:06

a matter of when the Negro

44:08

Leagues were going to fold. But

44:11

I don't know if people understood the ripple

44:13

effect that that was going to have. You

44:16

see, Negro League Baseball was

44:18

bringing those businesses a built-in

44:20

clientele that led them to

44:22

their economic heights. Speaking of

44:24

that legacy of what was

44:26

and wanting to remember that, do you want

44:29

to talk to us a little bit about

44:31

the campaign that you mentioned, Bill? Well, to

44:33

understand the origins of this museum is amazing

44:35

in its own right. Guys, we

44:37

started in a little one-room office, a fraction of the

44:40

size of my office that I'm sitting in now. And

44:43

guys like Buckle Neal and other local

44:45

Negro Leaguers who were still with us

44:47

who called Kansas City home, they've

44:50

all passed on now. They literally took

44:52

turns paying the monthly rent to

44:54

keep that little office open. And as I

44:56

like to say, with it are hopes and

44:58

dreams of one day building a facility that

45:00

would pay rightful tribute to not just one

45:02

of the greatest chapters in baseball history, but

45:04

what now thousands upon thousands each and every

45:06

year discover, one of the greatest chapters in

45:08

American history. Well, in November of 1997, we

45:12

moved into what we then call our permanent home.

45:15

And as you can imagine, when you

45:17

go from a one-room office and now

45:19

you got 10,000 square feet of space,

45:21

it seemed like an insurmountable amount

45:23

of space. Matter of fact, you're wondering how in the

45:25

heck we're going to fill all this up. I

45:29

bet it filled up just fine real quick, huh?

45:32

Filled up very quick. And we've

45:34

run out of space, both

45:37

from an exhibit standpoint as well

45:39

as administratively to match all of

45:41

the interest that has been generated

45:43

by these things that we've been

45:46

talking about during this show. And

45:48

that prompted us to announce last

45:51

May our plans to build a

45:53

brand new 30 plus

45:55

thousand square foot Negro League Baseball

45:57

Museum right around the corner. corner

46:00

from where we operate now, the

46:02

old Paseo YMCA, where the Negro

46:04

Leagues were established in 1920 in

46:06

that very building that is going

46:08

to become the Buck O'Neill Education

46:11

and Research Center. So we're renovating

46:13

that historic landmark as we speak,

46:16

and then we will build a brand new Negro

46:18

Leagues baseball museum attached to the

46:20

historic landmark where it all began.

46:23

I guess you could say going

46:25

full circle. Right. To where it

46:27

all began, whether story that we're

46:29

now charged with preserving was born.

46:31

And the campaign is

46:34

called Pitch for the Future. And

46:37

for those who would be interested, and we

46:39

hope a lot of you are we did

46:41

too interested in, in supporting

46:43

this effort of growth for the

46:45

Negro Leagues baseball museum, you can

46:48

make a charitable contribution

46:50

to the campaign online at

46:52

www.nlbm.com at the donation tab.

46:55

And you can drag down

46:57

and you'll see the Pitch

47:00

for the Future campaign. We

47:02

need to raise some

47:05

$30 million to build this

47:07

new home. And I am

47:10

as excited as you can be

47:12

about the task of having to

47:14

raise $30 billion. That's

47:17

a small number. As I tell people,

47:19

Greg, and this is so true, every

47:22

buck counts. That

47:24

gives us another step closer to

47:26

that financial. Can he's add up?

47:29

Absolutely. So there is no number

47:31

that is too small. Yeah. And

47:34

of course, there is no dollar

47:36

number that is too large. You

47:40

know, Bob, I bet you find something good to do

47:42

with it if you manage to break 30 million. I'm

47:44

just gonna ask because I know when

47:46

I visited the museum,

47:49

my favorite spot and I know that's true

47:51

of many visitors is the mock infield you

47:53

have set up. And so I'm wondering if

47:55

you're going to be recreating that in the

47:58

new space. If

48:00

I don't take that field of legends over

48:02

with me to a new place, they're going

48:04

to run me out of this town. That

48:08

space that you're referring to is

48:11

so iconic. And obviously

48:13

I'm biased, but I think it is one of

48:15

the most amazing displays in any museum, anywhere

48:17

in the world. And folks, when

48:20

you walk out on that field and

48:22

you stand amongst these 10 life-size

48:25

statues of Negro League grace and

48:27

their cast and position as if

48:29

they were playing a game, you

48:32

feel their spirit. You

48:35

really do. And Riley, I

48:37

have no doubt that once the

48:39

dust settles, everybody going

48:41

home, you know they're throwing the

48:43

ball around the horn in there. Well,

48:47

you know, Bob, I'm at the

48:49

disadvantage, unlike Riley, I have not had the privilege of

48:51

making it there. You got to come and keep standing.

48:54

Barbecue and the museum.

48:56

That's done. That

48:58

is it. Well,

49:01

hey, thank you so much for

49:03

your time today. Anything else that

49:05

we haven't touched on that really

49:07

needs to be spoken to be

49:09

that, you know, how the Kansas

49:11

City Royals are doing this season

49:13

or anything? It's exciting to see

49:15

baseball relevant again in case the

49:17

atmosphere is just electric. We're seeing

49:19

a lot of people come through

49:21

the turnstiles here at the Negro

49:23

League Baseball Museum. You know,

49:25

we didn't talk about the video game,

49:27

MLB the show and the inclusion of

49:30

the Negro Leagues in the video game,

49:32

which may be the biggest thing that

49:34

this museum has ever done. Because guys,

49:36

we're talking millions upon millions of young

49:38

people and young adults who are not

49:40

only learning about the Negro Leagues, but

49:42

they're falling in love with the Negro

49:44

Leagues because we brought it to them

49:47

in a mode and medium in which

49:49

they are accustomed to engaging with. And

49:51

we have a five year partnership with

49:53

Sony PlayStation for that inclusion of the

49:55

Negro Leagues, which we debuted in the

49:57

23 version of of the game and

49:59

this is second year in 24. And

50:03

it's just exciting to see all of these revelations

50:06

that are happening in and around Negro

50:08

League Baseball history and it comes at

50:11

a perfect time, as we mentioned, as

50:13

we are now dreaming about a new

50:15

home for the Negro League

50:17

Baseball Museum. Fantastic. Bob,

50:20

thank you again. And I am looking forward

50:22

to you and me, man. We're gonna get some

50:24

barbecue and then we're gonna. You got a

50:26

deal. All right. You got a deal. You know

50:28

where you're headed. Done. All

50:30

right. Thanks again. You take care. Thank you for

50:32

sharing all of it. Well, my

50:34

friends, that wraps up this bonus episode. If

50:37

you'd like more, head over to htdspodcast.com and

50:39

become a premium member to hear an extra

50:42

segment from my conversation with Bob Kendrick, where

50:44

we talk about Major League Baseball finally adding

50:46

player stats from the Negro Leagues into the

50:48

official record. Hdds premium members

50:50

also get every Hdds episode ad free

50:53

and early. More stories and other member

50:55

benefits. We'll be back next week right

50:57

here in your podcast feed with another

50:59

storytelling episode continuing our narrative through the

51:02

roaring twenties. history

51:05

that doesn't suck is created and hosted

51:07

by me, Greg

51:11

Jackson, up superduced by Dawson

51:13

McCraw editorial assistance by Riley Neubauer

51:15

production by airship sound designed by

51:17

Molly Bach, the music composed by

51:19

Greg Jackson arrangement and additional composition

51:21

by Lindsey Graham of airship visit

51:24

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