0:00

You're listening to an

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airwave media podcast. Hello, this

0:04

is Matt and McKinley from

0:06

History Dispatches. We are

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the father-son duo bringing the

0:10

weird, the wild, the wacky, and

0:13

the craziest tales from across time.

0:15

From the Ice Bowl, to the

0:17

Great Heathen Army, and the head

0:19

of Oliver Cromwell. The same head

0:21

they kept on a pike for

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three years? Yep, all here on

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history dispatches. New episodes every

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weekday. Find out more at

0:30

History Dispatches.com or wherever you

0:33

get your podcast app. In the

0:35

Declaration of Independence,

0:37

Thomas Jefferson famously

0:39

wrote, we hold these truths to

0:42

be self-evident, that all men are

0:44

created equal. They are endowed by

0:46

their creator with certain unalienable

0:49

rights, that among these are

0:51

life, liberty, and the pursuit

0:53

of happiness. But Thomas Jefferson

0:55

also enslaved some 600 people. Jefferson's

0:58

words and Jefferson's actions can be

1:00

hard to reconcile. How can a

1:02

man who believe that all men

1:05

are equal also have owned slaves?

1:07

How could a man who called slavery

1:09

a hideous blot on the United

1:11

States enslave other human beings until

1:14

the end of his life? Though Thomas

1:16

Jefferson's innermost thoughts about slavery are

1:18

impossible to know, his words and

1:20

actions during his life suggest that

1:22

his relationship with the institution of

1:25

slavery was complex, he was born

1:27

into a slave-owning family and would

1:29

come to enslave hundreds of men,

1:31

women, and children at his Monticello

1:33

plantation in Virginia. Yet as a

1:35

young man, Jefferson pushed for the

1:37

abolition of slavery and even penned

1:40

a fiery tirate against it in

1:42

the Declaration of Independence, though this

1:44

passage was ultimately cut. During his

1:46

presidency from 1801 to 1809,

1:48

Thomas Jefferson brought enslaved people

1:50

from Monticello to the White

1:52

House, yet he also ordered

1:54

Congress to abolish the international

1:56

slave trade in 1806, calling

1:58

it a violation. of human

2:00

rights. Jefferson also argued that emancipating

2:03

slaves quickly would not work because

2:05

formerly enslaved people were incapable of

2:07

taking care of themselves. He suggested

2:09

that there was no place for

2:11

formerly enslaved people in the United

2:14

States and that they should be

2:16

deported to Africa or the West

2:18

Indies. Yet Jefferson also had a

2:20

years-long secret relationship with an enslaved

2:23

woman named Sally Hemings. the exact

2:25

dynamics of their relationship are unknown,

2:27

and of course, as an enslaved

2:29

woman, Hemings would have had little

2:31

choice in the matter. But their relationship

2:34

lasted for four decades, and Sally Hemings

2:36

gave birth to six children. Modern science

2:38

has suggested that Jefferson is very likely

2:41

the father of all six of Hemings

2:43

children, and she was seemingly able to

2:45

negotiate with him for their freedom. Ultimately,

2:47

Thomas Jefferson was someone who said he

2:50

abhorred slavery but saw no easy way

2:52

to end it. He once compared slavery

2:54

in the United States to holding a

2:57

wolf by the ear, which could neither

2:59

be held safely nor let go safely.

3:01

And in the end, he left

3:03

the solving of this problem to

3:06

future generations. The story of Thomas

3:08

Jefferson's relationship with slavery helps provide

3:10

an insightful look at the history

3:13

of slavery in the United States

3:15

as a whole. Jefferson disliked slavery,

3:17

but benefited from it. He sought

3:20

to abolish it, yet participated in

3:22

it. Today, we'll look at the

3:24

arc of Jefferson's words and

3:26

actions regarding slavery, an institution

3:28

that he called immoral depravity,

3:31

even as he enslaved hundreds

3:33

of people. You're

3:36

listening to History Uncovered, brought to

3:39

you by the digital publisher All

3:41

that's interesting, where we explore the

3:43

untrarted corners of the natural world

3:45

and the world past. I'm all

3:47

interesting staff writer Colina Fraga. And

3:49

I'm all that's interesting staff

3:51

writer Austin Harvey. Today we're

3:53

untangling Thomas Jefferson's complex

3:56

relationship with slavery. And it

3:58

is indeed complex. It's been a while.

4:00

because situations worked out

4:02

weird. You're in a different state

4:04

and you happen to have lost

4:06

power last week. So we couldn't

4:08

record that. So it feels like

4:11

it's been forever since we did

4:13

the Malcolm X one and keyed

4:15

this one up. I know it's so true

4:17

a lifetime ago. I think it's coming

4:19

out a week late as well because

4:22

we didn't record it last week.

4:24

Right. And that's the reason why.

4:26

I'm at my parents' house and

4:28

we lost power for a few days.

4:30

I almost said what state you were in

4:32

and I was like, well I don't

4:35

really want to adopt your parents.

4:37

I mean, yeah, it's a, yeah, it's the country.

4:39

Yeah, sometimes we lose power and

4:42

wind storms. Yeah, but here

4:44

we are, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed,

4:46

so yes. Thomas Jefferson.

4:48

Basically, I mean, the, just

4:50

like to quickly like set this

4:52

up. Thomas Jefferson like has slavery in

4:55

his life from the very beginning

4:57

because he's born on his father's plantation

4:59

and in Virginia and his father had

5:01

60 enslaved people already. So this is

5:03

something that Jefferson grew up with and

5:06

when Jefferson's father died, Jefferson was only

5:08

14, he inherited 30 of these enslaved

5:10

people so basically right off the bat

5:13

like from a very very young age

5:15

he owned other human beings. Yeah that's

5:17

such a weird concept to me. Like I

5:20

know that sounds so like what a nothing

5:22

burger of a statement like wow slavery such

5:24

a weird concept but I think it really

5:26

it really landed home because like I think

5:29

we all know what slavery is and what

5:31

it means to have enslaved people and

5:33

begin to consider other people your property

5:35

but I think what really made it

5:37

registered for me there was like oh

5:39

he inherited people. I was like oh

5:42

that's so Geez, it just puts it, it's

5:44

gross. Yeah, it gets a lot weirder

5:46

with Jefferson in particular. And

5:48

this is a, this next

5:50

point is a really good

5:52

example of that. When he

5:54

gets married, he eventually inherits

5:57

135 more enslaved people from

5:59

his father-in-law. these was a 10-year-old

6:01

girl named Sally Hemings. His father-in-law

6:03

was actually Sally's father, which he

6:05

had Sally with one of his

6:08

enslaved women, which makes Sally Thomas

6:10

Jefferson's wife's half-sister. Wow. So that's,

6:12

I mean, spoiler alert, Sally Hemings

6:15

and Thomas Jefferson have a relationship.

6:17

Ugh. Yeah. Within just a few

6:19

years after this, actually, she was

6:21

his wife's half-sister. and they apparently

6:24

looked alike and you know his

6:26

wife died so like there's some

6:28

weird weird weird stuff about that

6:30

whole thing so that would make

6:32

her what his half-sister-in-law yeah wow

6:35

mhm very strange but you know all

6:37

this is going on in his family

6:39

life and his personal life but at

6:41

the same time Jefferson and his

6:43

political stars like slowly rising

6:45

in colonial America and when

6:47

he's elected to his first

6:50

office in Virginia he writes

6:52

A publication that's called The Summer

6:54

Review of the Rights of British

6:56

America for the First Continental Congress,

6:58

and this is basically arguing that

7:00

the British Parliament has no right

7:02

to govern American colonies, and one

7:04

thing that Jefferson points out in

7:06

particular is slavery. He writes basically,

7:08

I'll kind of summarize this, that

7:10

people in the colonies want the

7:12

abolition of slavery, and was unhappily

7:14

introduced by the British, and the

7:16

British have stopped them from trying

7:18

to like end this institution. which is

7:20

interesting because like he you know comes

7:22

from a slave holding background on slaves

7:24

and yet he's saying this pretty like

7:26

radical thing about like it's a British

7:29

it's their fault and we don't want

7:31

this and you force this on us

7:33

this wasn't ultimately published like it was

7:35

much more moderate version of it was

7:37

published by the Congress but Jefferson like

7:39

he doesn't change his mind about this

7:41

when he goes on to draft the

7:43

Declaration of Independence. The very first draft of

7:46

that also accuses the king of, he

7:48

calls it waging cruel war against human

7:50

nature itself, violating its most sacred rights

7:52

of life and liberty in the persons

7:54

of a distant people who never offended

7:56

him, captivating and carrying them into slavery

7:58

in another hemisphere. So, like, that's,

8:01

again, pretty radical. He's saying

8:03

the king, like, brought this

8:06

horrible, inhumane, like, institution to

8:08

the colonies. Hmm. It does

8:10

feel, not to defend the

8:13

English king, but it does

8:15

feel a bit unfair to put

8:17

it all on him. Yeah, well,

8:19

the king, like, in Jefferson's view,

8:21

is saying, like, we didn't want

8:23

this, you forts it on us,

8:25

we tried to stop it, like,

8:28

like, guilt, like, guilt, almost. It's

8:30

like, look, I have slaves, but like, I

8:32

didn't ask for them. It's the king's fault.

8:34

That's kind of Jefferson's whole

8:36

thing was like, I have them, but

8:38

the nation has them, we don't have

8:40

to do with them, and it's their

8:42

fault. But anyway, ultimately, this was not

8:44

included in the Declaration of Independence. I

8:46

mean, basically because a lot of people

8:49

did not agree with Jefferson and did

8:51

not want to, you know, call slavery

8:53

a war against human nature itself

8:55

or anything like that, because they

8:57

were slaveholders. Obviously, there were a

8:59

lot of them involved in the

9:01

foundation of the country. Ultimately,

9:03

as he continues to become, you know,

9:06

more and more involved in politics and

9:08

everything, he continues to, like, speak

9:10

out against slavery. In 1778, he

9:12

drops along Virginia to prohibit the

9:14

importation of enslaved Africans. In 1781,

9:16

he writes, this pamphlet, the notes

9:18

on the state of Virginia, and

9:20

he writes about the evils of

9:22

slavery. He says, I tremble for

9:24

my country when I reflect that

9:26

God is just cannot sleep forever.

9:29

That's like pretty like forceful language.

9:31

Yeah, man, they were so eloquent back

9:33

then. They were so eloquent. Yeah,

9:35

I know. But he also like

9:37

in the same document was like,

9:40

well, like, you know, enslaved people

9:42

are like really limited in their

9:44

abilities. And so maybe like, you

9:46

know, freeing them, I don't know.

9:48

At the same time, he does acknowledge

9:51

that their limitations might be

9:53

caused by being enslaved. So

9:55

yeah, man, he was like almost there. I

9:57

mean, as his political star continues to rise.

10:00

he stopped in this language is

10:02

much more muted. Yeah, you have

10:04

to kind of moderate yourself to

10:06

win over the voters who have

10:08

slaves. The South, which is a

10:10

huge important voting block and segment.

10:12

And they really liked their slavery

10:14

back then. We fought a whole

10:16

war about it. Yes, and it

10:18

was very important to their economy

10:20

at the time. Yeah. So basically

10:22

that's kind of what he's been

10:24

saying in his young adulthood at

10:26

the same time as the last

10:28

couple examples. he begins this relationship

10:30

with Sally Hemings who again is

10:32

an enslaved woman actually she's still

10:34

a girl she was 14 and

10:36

he was 40 not ideal this

10:38

happened when he was in Paris

10:40

with with her and her brother

10:42

and when they were in Paris

10:44

Sally and her brother James like

10:46

were exposed to ideas of freedom

10:48

that they'd never really encountered back

10:50

in the United States if they,

10:52

you know, they're exposed to these

10:54

new ideas in Paris, like what

10:56

was the world philosophy on slavery

10:58

at this point in time? Because

11:00

obviously a lot of European nations

11:02

did it at one point. England

11:04

did abolish slavery before the US

11:06

did. Although I couldn't tell you

11:08

the exact date of that. I

11:10

didn't look it up real quick.

11:12

1833 in England, in France. Oh,

11:14

1794. So after the French... French

11:16

Revolution. Revolution, yeah. And then a

11:18

second time in 1848? That was

11:20

possibly related to like Haiti, I

11:22

think? Yeah. Yeah. So they were

11:24

able to like see a different

11:26

world while they were there, and

11:28

neither wanted to go home. I

11:30

mean, both negotiated with Jefferson, and

11:32

Jefferson negotiated back. He agreed to

11:34

free James, if James taught another

11:36

person what he learned in Paris,

11:38

which he did. Sally refused to

11:40

return, but negotiated quote-unquote extraordinary privileges

11:42

with Jefferson, including the freedom for

11:44

her future children, and she was

11:46

pregnant at the time with his

11:48

child. So, again, 14 years old.

11:50

She ultimately had six children, four

11:52

of him. survived to adulthood and

11:54

they were all freed or simply

11:56

allowed to leave Monticello his plantation.

11:58

Two of her daughters could pass

12:00

his white so they just kind

12:02

of left and you know just

12:04

gave up that heritage and then

12:06

passed his white. Sally Hemings was

12:08

freed after Jefferson's death by his

12:10

daughter and in one sense that

12:12

she and her sons were described

12:14

as white as well. So this...

12:16

suggest that they were white passing.

12:18

Oh, she was half white, so

12:21

yeah. At least half white. I

12:23

mean, we don't know what her

12:25

mother's heritage was and what happened

12:27

to her, so. That's interesting. That

12:29

is a, that is an interesting

12:31

note of like, okay, well, these

12:33

were freed people, but they passed

12:35

as white, so they probably got

12:37

along decently fine after that. But

12:39

if you were like, if they

12:41

were much darker skin tone, I'm

12:43

curious how that would have. They

12:45

would not have gotten along as

12:47

fine. Right. Yeah, they would have

12:49

had a lot more more challenges.

12:51

Because it was like, yeah, you're

12:53

technically free, but also like most

12:55

people don't consider you a person

12:57

still. So how free is that

12:59

freedom? Right. Exactly. And it does

13:01

make this idea. It just kind

13:03

of points the absurdity of slavery

13:05

as it's based on like skin

13:07

color in the United States because

13:09

Sally Hemings and her children like

13:11

apparently could pass as white. and

13:13

yet they were enslaved. Right. So

13:15

yeah, I mean, obviously it's like

13:17

a... Yeah, it's a bad concept

13:19

regardless of why you're doing it.

13:21

It's a bad concept. Yeah, just

13:23

a concept doesn't really make a

13:25

whole lot of sense when you

13:27

look at it closely at all.

13:29

Yeah, it is really dumb. It's

13:31

really dumb. Thomas Jefferson, though, continued

13:33

to engage, you know, with this

13:35

institution. He ultimately enslaved 600 people

13:37

during his life. At any given

13:39

time, there were 130 enslaved people

13:41

at Monticello. And while he spoke

13:43

about improving conditions for enslaved people

13:45

or, you know, slowly ending slavery

13:47

or curbing the practice somehow, like

13:49

conditions at his plantation were pretty

13:51

typical for the time. That was

13:53

what I was about to ask

13:55

if he was like, well, he

13:57

treats him better or something, but

13:59

it doesn't seem like that's the

14:01

case. I mean... Thomas Jefferson was

14:03

probably not like involved in like

14:05

the day-to-day stuff on his plantation

14:07

But he had overseers and they

14:09

had a reputation for cruelty and

14:11

violence There's like no evidence that

14:13

he Jefferson like beat his slaves

14:15

But the overseers certainly did and

14:17

he certainly ordered them to be

14:19

beaten and they like enslaved people

14:21

in like almost any plantation phase,

14:23

you know, terrorists of violence family

14:25

separation emotional psychological and sexual abuse

14:27

so this like for them wasn't

14:29

much better even though you know,

14:31

he spoke about all these like

14:33

grand ideas. Yeah, God, how angry

14:35

would you be? Unfortunately, a lot

14:37

of enslaved people were never taught

14:40

to read. But imagine if you

14:42

were like someone who was enslaved

14:44

on Thomas Jefferson's farm and you

14:46

heard the things he was writing

14:48

about and you were like, wait,

14:50

the guy who owns this plantation

14:52

is saying that we shouldn't even

14:54

be here. I'd be delivered. Yeah,

14:56

yeah. I mean, people were livid

14:58

enslaved people. Of course, if they

15:00

had access to those ideas, which

15:02

most of them didn't. Well, I'm

15:04

sure they were all thinking it

15:06

too, privately, right? Yeah. Yeah. In

15:08

his life, he sold 110 slave

15:10

people, so this is sending them

15:12

to other plantations, you know, often

15:14

further into the South, where conditions

15:16

were worse. In his life, he

15:18

freed just 10, member he owned

15:20

600, and they were all members

15:22

of the Hemings family. So, yes.

15:24

Which also means they were kind

15:26

of members of members of his

15:28

own family. That's right. So a

15:30

little nepotism there? A lot of

15:32

nepotism. He clearly spoke out against

15:34

slavery in some ways, but he

15:36

saw its power and its benefits.

15:38

in Virginia between 1790 and 1830

15:40

the slave population grew about 60%

15:42

he he discouraged crops that relied

15:44

on slave labor like tobacco but

15:46

ultimately Virginia's most valuable commodity was

15:48

enslaved people like not crops right

15:50

and Jefferson knew that in 1792

15:52

he wrote to George Washington whose

15:54

name should ring about for everybody,

15:56

that he was making a 4%

15:58

profit every year based on the

16:00

birth of enslaved children. And in

16:02

1830 he also wrote, I consider

16:04

a woman who brings a child

16:06

every two years as more profitable

16:08

than the best man on the

16:10

farm and enslavement. What she produces

16:12

is in addition to the capital

16:14

while his labors disappear in mere

16:16

consumption. So that's all pretty, yeah,

16:18

well put. Very well put. Although

16:20

he initially didn't want to, he

16:22

resisted it, he brought enslaved people

16:24

to the White House, which makes

16:26

him the first president to do

16:28

that, although that, the only president

16:30

to live in the White House

16:32

before him was John Adams, and

16:34

John Adams didn't own slaves. He

16:36

didn't want to do it. I

16:38

mean, it didn't look great, but

16:40

also he didn't want them to

16:42

be exposed to new ideas about

16:44

freedom and in Washington DC. But

16:46

as president, he also banned the

16:48

international slave trade. So there was

16:50

that, I guess. He told Congress

16:52

the ban was needed to withdraw

16:54

the citizens of the United States

16:56

from all further participation in those

16:58

violations of human rights. Again, interesting

17:01

and forceful, but um... Right. It's

17:03

kind of hard to, it's hard

17:05

to like look at Thomas Jefferson

17:07

saying this in Congress and then

17:09

like, I'm imagining being like a

17:11

member of Congress as he saying

17:13

this and you like look over

17:15

his shoulder and there is like...

17:17

to enslave people standing behind him.

17:19

You're like, hmm. Yeah, most of

17:21

them had slaves. They're probably like,

17:23

angry he was even doing this.

17:25

I don't know. Yeah. But this

17:27

did ban the importation of slaves

17:29

from abroad. By this point, you

17:31

know, there were millions already in

17:33

the United States and this only

17:35

solved one part of the problem.

17:37

And the slave trade did continue

17:39

illegally after this. It wasn't totally

17:41

stopped. Plus, like, it doesn't do

17:43

that much when... slavery is already

17:45

falling out of fashion in other

17:47

parts of the Western world. Well,

17:49

I mean, but it was very

17:51

fashionable in the United States. Wow,

17:53

true. Yeah. In certain circles, like

17:55

it was still very important to

17:57

southern economy and everything. That's fair.

17:59

But yeah, Monticello, which is like

18:01

they run the website about his

18:03

history and everything, they say his

18:05

basic beliefs never really changed from

18:07

the 1770s until his death, he

18:09

advocated a plan of gradual emancipation.

18:11

So he said, first, abolish the

18:13

transatlantic slave trade as president check.

18:15

Second, improve the lives of enslaved

18:17

people by improving living conditions and

18:19

scale down physical punishment, unclear how

18:21

we did that. Third, all enslaved

18:23

people born after a certain date

18:25

would be freed, followed by total

18:27

abolition. But... He did not believe

18:29

that white and black Americans could

18:31

live together in the same nation.

18:33

He thought they needed to be

18:35

in two separate nations because he

18:37

believed enslaved people were limited and

18:39

likely to bear grudges against their

18:41

owners. Well, yeah. So he thought

18:43

the deportation to Africa or the

18:45

West Indies was the ideal solution

18:47

to this. Interesting. I think if

18:49

you really think about this, there

18:51

are like black Americans who have

18:53

been in the nation longer than

18:55

a lot of white Americans because

18:57

they were here from the very

18:59

very beginning. somewhere else just makes

19:01

like yeah yeah like we picked

19:03

you up in Africa keep you

19:05

here for like four generations then

19:07

send your kids back but it's

19:09

like well they don't they don't

19:11

know what Africa's like yeah there

19:13

are Americans I mean yeah so

19:15

anyway that was kind of his

19:17

how he thought this this could

19:20

be resolved yeah that is fascinating

19:22

it is yeah it's weird like

19:24

anyone who's not of British or

19:26

like African-American ancestry is like pretty

19:28

new to the country still like

19:30

Italian Americans aren't that far back

19:32

and there was a lot of

19:34

racist pushback against Italians when they

19:36

first started coming over the Irish.

19:38

Those are both probably in like

19:40

the 19th century Germans. Yeah. As

19:42

a long time foreign correspondent I've

19:44

worked in lots of places nowhere

19:46

as important to the world as

19:48

China. But these days, few journalists

19:50

are able to get the inside

19:52

story. That's because... has shut the

19:54

door to much of the media.

19:56

Authorities have far more efficient tools

19:58

to control the press and they're

20:00

far less reluctant to use them.

20:02

I'm Jane Perles, former Beijing Bureau

20:04

Chief for the New York Times.

20:06

On face-off, the US versus China,

20:08

we're trying to breakthrough. We'll talk

20:10

about Trump and Cijian Ping, AI,

20:12

Tik-Tok and even Hollywood. New episodes

20:14

of face-off are available now. wherever

20:16

you get your podcasts. As Jefferson,

20:18

even as he was dying, he

20:20

was thinking about slavery and his

20:22

legacy and everything. He dies in

20:24

the spring of 1826, or as

20:26

he lay dying in the spring

20:28

of 1826, of course he died

20:30

on the 4th of July. Oh,

20:32

did he? I didn't know that.

20:34

Oh, yeah, he and Thomas, or

20:36

he and John Adams both died

20:38

on the 4th of July, on

20:40

the 50th anniversary. of the Declaration

20:42

of Independence. Whoa! I had no

20:44

idea about that. That's crazy. John

20:46

Adams' last words were, Thomas Jefferson

20:48

lives, although Jefferson had died a

20:50

few hours earlier. Wow. I know.

20:52

Wow. Yeah, it's not wild. For

20:54

enemies, Jefferson and Adams, but it's

20:56

a different podcast. Yeah, he wrote

20:58

on slavery. Well, he was writing

21:00

a letter kind of defending his

21:02

inaction on slavery, and he said...

21:04

A good cause is often injured

21:06

more by ill-timed efforts of its

21:08

friends than by the arguments of

21:10

its enemies. My sentiments have been

21:12

40 years before the public. Had

21:14

I repeated them 40 times, they

21:16

would only become the more stale

21:18

and threadbare. I mean, it's like,

21:20

I don't know. I will say.

21:22

Maybe. I will say. He got

21:24

the number of years right. 1826,

21:26

he says this. I think so,

21:28

yeah. That his sentiments were 40

21:30

years ahead of the nations. And

21:32

then 40 years later. I think

21:34

he's he's meaning 40 years for

21:36

four years. Yeah. Yeah, damn. I

21:38

thought he was saying, like, my

21:41

ideas are so good on this.

21:43

They're 40 years ahead. And I

21:45

was like, that's kind of eerie,

21:47

because 40 years after that, we

21:49

were fighting a war about this.

21:51

So. Yeah, not quite, but I

21:53

mean, the Civil War is very,

21:55

like, soon after this, really, the

21:57

scope of things. His granddaughter also

21:59

writes him about slavery in the

22:01

South, she calls it, she calls

22:03

it, she calls it, she calls

22:05

it, she calls it, she calls

22:07

it, He responded, one fatal stain

22:09

to forms, but nature had bestowed

22:11

on us of her Paris gifts.

22:13

So in private, he was pretty

22:15

radical. He did keep this, really

22:17

throughout his life, he said radical

22:19

things about slavery for the time.

22:21

Yeah, for sure. But that's really

22:23

hard to like balance with what

22:25

he actually did about slavery, his

22:27

own slaves. Like he owned slaves.

22:29

He could have acted on this.

22:31

That's the part that's more of

22:33

a hicup, because it's like there's

22:35

only so much you can do

22:37

as the president. like take into

22:39

consideration the interests of like everybody.

22:41

Well and your your Congress is

22:43

you know a lot of the

22:45

Congress is the South right that's

22:47

a hard you're from the South

22:49

that's a hard thing to do.

22:51

But yeah it's his own personal

22:53

like the fact that he regularly

22:55

kept slaves like makes sense when

22:57

he was younger and his father

22:59

died and he inherited a bunch

23:01

of people was like well sure

23:03

but then you kept doing it

23:05

for years. you very much engage

23:07

with it, you acknowledge the profit

23:09

of it, how you were benefiting

23:11

personally from it, you had a

23:13

relationship with an enslaved woman for

23:15

like most of your life. Yeah,

23:17

which I know that wasn't bad.

23:19

Children with her and still, yeah,

23:21

it's really really hard to balance

23:23

those two things. Yeah, complicated is

23:25

definitely the word for it. Yes,

23:27

for sure. Do you think it

23:29

was exhausting to talk like that

23:31

all the time? Like, I don't

23:33

know. Like, it's kind of, it's

23:35

nice, it's elocated, but it's like,

23:37

whoa, putting a lot of thought

23:39

into it, huh? I think. Jefferson

23:41

was like, you know, especially like

23:43

educated and wealthy and of this

23:45

like plantation class. So he probably

23:47

spoke in a certain way that

23:49

wasn't like the way everyone spoke.

23:51

But now we're just firing off

23:53

text like L-O-L, look at this

23:55

sandwich I'm eating. In any case,

23:57

you know, Jefferson does die on

24:00

July 4th. He's widely mourned. He's

24:02

seen as an American hero, a

24:04

formative founding father, and his presidency

24:06

was seen as very, very, very

24:08

important as well. He became president

24:10

of President. And it was seen

24:12

as a revolution of kind of

24:14

like a new chapter, a new

24:16

better chapter of American history because

24:18

he was followed, you know, by

24:20

his friend Madison and so forth.

24:22

So that's kind of how he

24:24

was seen when he died and

24:26

how he was seen I would

24:28

say probably for the next 100

24:30

years, 150 years. And it's only

24:32

really recently that people have been

24:34

like... Let's reevaluate maybe a little

24:36

bit. Well, these rumors about Sally

24:38

Hemings existed in his lifetime, but

24:40

it wasn't confirmed through DNA until

24:42

I think in the 90s that...

24:44

the children were very very likely

24:46

Jeffersons. You know, the family, her

24:48

family lore all said they were

24:50

and they finally got this DNA

24:52

analysis. So that's like very very

24:54

recent. Yeah, that is very interesting.

24:56

Yeah. So now it's like, you

24:58

know, people are reconsidering him. I

25:00

think, you know, it's so easy

25:02

often in our current times and

25:04

in looking at history to be

25:06

like someone's bad or good or,

25:08

you know, black or white or

25:10

whatever. And it's just complicated, like

25:12

he did some really bad things.

25:14

He has some really interesting and

25:16

progressive and radical ideas, like those

25:18

two things exist, I guess, but

25:20

to kind of evaluate both of

25:22

them. Yeah, well, and I think

25:24

there's also been a significant change

25:26

in the way that Americans talk

25:28

about American politics. I feel like

25:30

there used to be a lot

25:32

more like reverence for the title

25:34

of president, and I think that

25:36

kind of started to fall apart

25:38

with Nixon, where it was like,

25:40

like the first kind of really

25:42

big rock the boat of the

25:44

boat of the institution scandal. with

25:46

Watergate where it was like, ooh,

25:48

hmm. Yeah, right, definitely lost trust

25:50

in the office after that. I

25:52

don't think they ever really, well,

25:54

and you know. I will say

25:56

too, that's around the same time,

25:58

S&L started premiering. And there was

26:00

a regular feature of them to

26:02

like poke fun at presidential candidates

26:04

and presidents and stuff. Yeah, yeah,

26:06

I mean, yeah, it's fascinating. Television,

26:08

I think, really changed the presidency

26:10

as well. I mean, I grew

26:12

up in like an age where

26:14

Will Farrell was playing George Bush

26:16

on TV. So I always was

26:18

just like, George Bush as an

26:21

idiot, because that's how I, as

26:23

a kid, saw him portrayed, saw

26:25

him portrayed. And it sort of

26:27

made me be like, why should

26:29

I give a shit what the

26:31

president thinks ever? Yeah, because it

26:33

mocked so much. Right. From personal

26:35

standpoint, but I'm sure like, in

26:37

1850, people were talking about Thomas

26:39

Jefferson. They were, you know, he

26:41

was a great man. You watch

26:43

your mouth. Oh, for sure. Yeah,

26:45

I mean, unless they were, you

26:47

know, of the other party, maybe,

26:49

but not really, because he was

26:51

the sounding father or everything. and

26:53

then it was the federalist being

26:55

on the opposition party at that

26:57

point. Right, yeah the parties have

26:59

really changed. Yeah, it's almost like

27:01

it doesn't even really matter what

27:03

you call it anymore. Like we

27:05

just kind of landed on Democrats

27:07

and Republicans, but it's like it

27:09

doesn't, it's not like Democrats are

27:11

out here saying we should vote

27:13

like a real democracy, like every

27:15

person votes, every citizen votes on

27:17

something. Like we're still a republic

27:19

at the end of the day.

27:21

So it's... Just funny how much

27:23

language can change, but like not

27:25

even matter at all that it

27:27

changed Yeah, yeah, and it'll be

27:29

interesting to see like I mean

27:31

our parties haven't really changed In

27:33

terms of like the two-party system

27:35

and you know in the 19th

27:37

century there were so many Or

27:39

there were lots of different parties

27:41

like the Republican parties only born

27:43

in the 1850s or the maybe

27:45

not even 1860. I guess 1850s

27:47

late 1850s late 1850s, but um

27:49

You know, just like stuff changed

27:51

a lot back then who've been

27:53

on kind of the same course

27:55

ever since. That's how it is

27:57

in England today is they just

27:59

they have like 30 parties that

28:01

all actually have a decent shot

28:03

at winning elections. I think the

28:05

binary option has really felt limiting

28:07

for a lot of people. They're

28:09

really split into different factions, but

28:11

they're not called that faction. They're

28:13

not their own party or anything.

28:15

But they could be. I mean,

28:17

that could be an interesting experiment.

28:19

I think that's a change a

28:21

lot of people would like to

28:23

see. Yeah, I do too. I

28:25

think the binary option has really

28:27

felt limiting for a lot of

28:29

people. I think you see that

28:31

in voter turnout numbers. Yeah, I

28:33

think that's true. I mean in

28:35

Europe as well that you see

28:37

a lot of like stalemate and

28:40

you know coalitions that don't work

28:42

and I don't know. I can't

28:44

remember who said it. Someone said

28:46

this and I can't remember who

28:48

it was. Maybe it was Benjamin

28:50

Franklin. But he said democracy is

28:52

the worst form of government except

28:54

for all the others. Yeah. But

28:56

yeah, Jefferson, interesting. Interesting, interesting guy.

28:58

The one person I would love

29:00

to talk about in the podcast,

29:02

but I think it's Tunisian, John

29:04

Adams' son, because he was like

29:06

a flamethrower. He did all sorts,

29:08

he was president, but he also

29:10

did all sorts of other things

29:12

in his life. And I think

29:14

after he was president, he went

29:16

back and served in the house,

29:18

and he was against slavery, like

29:20

just against it at a time

29:22

so unpopular so unpopular to do

29:24

that. But yeah, really interesting. Yeah,

29:26

and John Adams didn't have any

29:28

slaves either, right? You said, so.

29:30

No, no. I mean, they were

29:32

both from, you know, Boston and

29:34

Plantations up there. Yeah, that is

29:36

really interesting. Yeah, I find this

29:38

stuff fascinating. It's always, it's always

29:40

fun to look back and see

29:42

what was considered radical at a

29:44

certain point in time. Yeah. How

29:46

like, like, now, if you were

29:48

like, if someone today was like,

29:50

we should bring back slavery, we'd

29:52

be like, like, what? But yeah,

29:54

it's fascinating that there was at

29:56

one point in time like this,

29:58

like, if you said that, that

30:00

was like a radical thing to

30:02

say. It's interesting because... like the

30:04

institution of slavery as an institution

30:06

maybe is gone, but there is

30:08

like slavery like around the world,

30:10

people who are maybe like tricked

30:12

into slavery, tricked into like taking

30:14

a job that's actually like working,

30:16

you know, 20-hour days and things

30:18

like that, but the way it

30:20

was back then, yeah, very different.

30:22

Yeah, and because I've been doing

30:24

a lot of stuff this week

30:26

about the Gilded Age. Yeah, that's

30:28

1870. It's interesting to me that

30:30

right after the abolition of slavery,

30:32

we entered a period of like

30:34

disastrous overwork, terrible working conditions like

30:36

people be like not officially slavery

30:38

but subjugation that's not far off.

30:40

Very close. Yeah, right. Working six

30:42

days a week and can't take

30:44

time off and just disease spreading

30:46

and No one cares because social

30:48

Darwinism was like a thing. Yeah,

30:50

it's interesting. I think the post-civil

30:52

war years are often so overlooked.

30:54

We discussed this before because it

30:56

goes civil war, lots of stuff,

30:58

World War One, but like that

31:01

period is sort of like lost

31:03

in the mix a bit. Yeah,

31:05

I think it kind of just

31:07

gets boiled down to like life

31:09

sucked. for the average person. Yeah,

31:11

it yeah, but it's also like

31:13

so interesting because like after the

31:15

Civil War, like reconstruction had all

31:17

these like grand ideas and promises

31:19

and like and then it all

31:21

just like collapsed. And yeah, those

31:23

Rutherford, Rutherford B. Hayes was the

31:25

one who like really put an

31:27

end to that. That's right. Yeah,

31:29

Rutherford B. Hayes. We don't have

31:31

names like that anymore, Rutherford. No,

31:33

some old names are coming back.

31:35

Bring it back. I like old

31:37

names. I like old names. I

31:39

do too. I

31:45

guess the next one then is mine

31:48

again, which is going to be on

31:50

this is actually this idea came from

31:52

someone who wrote in about wanting to

31:54

hear something about tsunamis. So we're doing

31:56

an episode on the 2004 tsunami. The

31:59

boxing day tsunami, Indian Ocean tsunami, it's

32:01

called really devastating, one of the worst

32:03

natural disasters of all time, that's our

32:05

next one coming out. Yeah, fun. Yeah,

32:07

I know. I know. My parents, they

32:10

do live on an island and, you

32:12

know, we're in an earthquake prone region

32:14

and sometimes it's like, hmm, I wonder

32:16

what would happen. Yeah, really. I wonder

32:18

what would happen. But anyway, that's the

32:21

next one coming out. That's true, but

32:23

very dramatic. It's important most of the

32:25

time. Yeah, that'll be interesting. So stay

32:27

tuned for that. There's another one that

32:29

I don't really know too much about

32:32

it despite having been alive when it

32:34

happened. Because I was eight. I remember

32:36

I was like in the airport. I

32:38

think my parents, we were all somewhere

32:40

for Christmas and we were flying home

32:43

because this happened on December 26. and

32:45

all the newspapers, like all the kiosks

32:47

were about it. And it was really

32:49

left like an impression on me, because

32:51

it was so many people and all

32:54

the stories. And I was old enough,

32:56

I guess I was 14, I was

32:58

old enough to like, kind of absorb

33:00

what the tragedy was, and it really,

33:03

really stuck with me. So I'm interested

33:05

to talk about this more. Yeah, that'll

33:07

be interesting. Yeah, I was eight years

33:09

old, so I was not paying much

33:11

attention. Not quite absorbing the tragedy. Yeah,

33:20

if you want to read more

33:22

about our stories about history, Jefferson,

33:24

Civil War, basically anything. Anything else

33:26

interesting. You can do that at

33:28

all the interesting.com. You can also

33:31

join our newsletter by going to

33:33

all the interesting.com/sign-up, or you can

33:35

even become a member at all

33:37

the interesting.com/membership. And if you do

33:39

that, you'll get access to this

33:42

next part of this episode, which

33:44

will be History Happy Hour. for

33:46

February. Yeah, right. Over a little

33:48

behind this time, but a little

33:51

behind. Yeah, history app hour is

33:53

fun though. We go over like

33:55

our top news stories from the

33:57

month and some historical anniversaries that

33:59

passed and you know, it's a

34:02

cool way. of diving into the

34:04

history that is still happening. Yeah,

34:06

absolutely. You can also find us

34:08

on social media platforms, on YouTube,

34:10

the full episode. The shorts are

34:13

posted there on Instagram History and

34:15

Govern podcast on Tik Talk at

34:17

Real History Uncovered. For as long

34:19

as that last, thought we were

34:21

gonna be over the Tik Talk

34:24

thing by now, but I guess

34:26

not. Oh, that's right. Yeah. Yeah.

34:28

Yeah. Still kicking. Still kicking. We're

34:30

still posting there. Yeah, and if

34:32

you do have a question about

34:35

the show, a story idea, like

34:37

the tsunami idea, want to say

34:39

hi, have a comment, whatever, you

34:41

can either call us and leave

34:44

a voicemail at 929-526-3029, or you

34:46

can email us at podcast at

34:48

all the interesting.com. Yeah, we've done

34:50

a couple episodes now that we're

34:52

right in. Yes, we did the

34:55

Soviet One. I feel like there

34:57

was one more that I'm forgetting,

34:59

but yeah, we love getting those.

35:01

It's really interesting. Yeah, it is.

35:03

It's very fun to hear what

35:06

people have to say about different

35:08

topics that we cover or like

35:10

ideas that they have for things

35:12

they want to hear about because,

35:14

I don't know, there's so much

35:17

history to go over. Yeah. And

35:19

we talk about a lot of

35:21

it, but it's not always easy

35:23

to be like, hmm, what should

35:25

we talk about this month? What

35:28

do people want to hear about?

35:30

What do you guys think? It's

35:32

like, it's like, it's like, it's

35:34

like, we write about it every

35:36

day and then when we're asked

35:39

to choose a story, it's like,

35:41

it's so overwhelming. There's so much

35:43

to choose from. Yeah, because my

35:45

thing is always like, I don't

35:48

know, is there a new alien

35:50

abduction we haven't talked about? Right,

35:52

yeah. Let's talking about this. What

35:54

are their names? Oh, Betty Barney

35:56

Hill. Yeah, Betty and then I

35:59

edited it. Okay, yeah. That'd be

36:01

a good podcast. I think that

36:03

one would be the one. I'm

36:05

surprised we didn't talk about that

36:07

during our UFO series. Me too.

36:10

Me too. Me too. It was

36:12

an oversight on our part, but

36:14

maybe we had that into the

36:16

running. That'd be a cool one,

36:18

but. Anyway, we're going to switch

36:21

over to History Happy Hour now.

36:23

If you remember, you'll hear it.

36:25

If you're not, you should become

36:27

a member. Yeah. Yeah. And we'll

36:29

be back soon with that tsunami

36:32

episode. Yeah. See you for now.

36:34

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