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more at Capella. EDU. In 1983,

0:34

police in Manhattan Beach, California, sent

0:36

an alarming letter to parents whose in Manhattan

0:38

Beach, California sent an alarming letter

0:41

to parents a children attended at the

0:43

school had A mother of a

0:45

two -year -old at the school had

0:47

told the authorities that her

0:49

son had been sexually abused were

0:51

the police were looking for additional

0:53

victims or witnesses. But the mother

0:56

had told the police the stories

0:58

as well, well, claiming that her

1:00

son had also described seeing seeing

1:02

a goat man, that he'd witnessed a

1:04

ritual a atmosphere, and and seen

1:06

one of his teachers flying. teachers the

1:09

air. in the air. Then, to the to the

1:11

horror of parents, administrators, and

1:13

the authorities, other other children

1:15

at McMartin began to recount

1:17

similarly terrifying stories. They described

1:19

seeing teachers beat a horse to

1:21

death with a baseball bat, bat, squeeze

1:23

a to to death, and sacrifice a

1:26

baby in a church. The

1:28

children even claimed that they'd been

1:30

forced to drink the They blood.

1:32

They described secret tunnels beneath

1:34

their preschool called a game called some

1:36

of which some of the children

1:38

would stand guard while their teachers turns

1:40

molesting their classmates. However, these shocking

1:42

shocking accounts quickly came under

1:44

scrutiny. came out that came out that

1:46

the mother the had raised the

1:48

original complaint suffered from paranoid

1:50

schizophrenia, and that and that the

1:52

children had been asked leading

1:54

questions. Nevertheless, of the

1:56

many of the

1:59

teachers at preschool were

2:01

were forced to

2:03

stand trial. and deny

2:05

the allegations. Finally, after several years,

2:08

all the charges against them were

2:10

dismissed. But how did such a

2:12

case even get to trial in

2:14

the first place? The answer lies

2:16

in the fact that at the

2:19

time America was in the thick

2:21

of a strange cultural moment now

2:23

known as the satanic, panic. During

2:25

this time, McMurton Preschool was hardly

2:28

the only institution, and not even

2:30

the only preschool, to face accusations

2:32

of conducting sinister rituals or practicing

2:34

Satanism. corporations, musicians, and even game

2:36

designers also faced allegations of dabbling

2:39

in Satanism in the 1980s and

2:41

the 1990s. Americans seemed to see

2:43

the devil around every corner. But

2:45

why? How exactly did the satanic

2:48

panic come into being? How did

2:50

it touch every corner of American

2:52

society? And did it ever really

2:54

end? Today, we'll discuss the possible

2:56

roots of the satanic panic, including

2:59

how one book called Michelle Remembers

3:01

first helped it spread, and why

3:03

the strange American phenomenon, in some

3:05

ways, never really went away. You're

3:11

listening to History Uncovered, brought to

3:14

you by the digital publisher All

3:16

that's interesting, where we explore the

3:18

untrudered corners of the natural world

3:20

and the world past. I'm all

3:22

its interesting staff writer Colina Fraga.

3:25

And I'm all that's interesting staff

3:27

writer Austin Harvey. Today, we're discussing

3:29

the satanic panic, the bizarre bout

3:31

of hysteria that gripped the United

3:34

States in the 1980s and the

3:36

1990s. It went on for a

3:38

long time. It did, yeah. It's

3:40

like actually... staggering how long this

3:42

lasted. Yeah, I think it actually

3:45

lasted longer than most people even

3:47

think. It's kind of associated with

3:49

the 80s, but I would argue

3:51

that its roots maybe began like the

3:54

70s. Yeah, I was gonna say, it

3:56

feels like late 70s, maybe around the

3:58

time of like Amityville. Exactly. Which I

4:00

guess was that was 74. So like

4:03

mid 70s, because you kind of get

4:05

the rise of like Ed and Lorraine

4:07

Warren during that time and they were

4:10

really yeah, they were benefiting from this

4:12

hysteria, this like big satanic fear. They

4:14

found an audience for it. Yeah, for

4:16

sure. Yeah, 1974 was also actually, let

4:19

me check this from I'm working. No,

4:21

it is. Yeah, because this is this

4:23

year's the 50th anniversary of it. In

4:26

1974, funnily enough, the same year the

4:28

Dungeons and Dragons came out. Yes, we

4:30

were going to talk Dungeons, Dragons, movies,

4:32

all of it. But yeah, I thought

4:35

we could kind of start with like

4:37

where this maybe came from. And it

4:39

seems like the seeds of Satanic Panic

4:42

probably began, yeah, and like kind of

4:44

in the, maybe even the very late

4:46

60s and into the 70s, where, um...

4:48

You know, you can argue that society

4:51

is really changing. Women are going to

4:53

work now, which means that children are

4:55

less supervised. People have these new concerns

4:58

about what are your kids doing when

5:00

your parents aren't there. At the same

5:02

time, like the country's changed a lot,

5:04

Watergate, Vietnam War, people just kind of

5:07

trust institutions less than they used to.

5:09

Funny to think to what possible devilry.

5:11

for pardon upon, could children have been

5:14

getting up to home alone in the

5:16

70s? And like a pre-internet era? I

5:18

mean, obviously they could like set fire

5:20

to the house or whatever. Yeah, I

5:23

like do drugs or for incur, or

5:25

something like that. But I think people

5:27

did worry about that because like youth

5:30

culture was changing too. It had been

5:32

the 60s and the Beatles and whatever,

5:34

and then suddenly it was the 70s

5:36

and rock and roll and I... worked

5:39

on this article, I updated it, I

5:41

didn't write it, the original one, but

5:43

I cited this as very famous quote

5:46

from Joan Didian and she says that

5:48

the Manson murders in 1969 marked the

5:50

end of the 60s. And I was

5:52

like, I think they might also mark

5:55

the beginning of the satanic panic in

5:57

a way because that was such a

5:59

horrible bloody like, and even the the

6:02

Manson members kind of inside. or invoke

6:04

the devil in their stuff. Even just

6:06

the worshiping of him instead of God

6:08

was like, ooh, didn't realize people could

6:11

do that. They're worshiping evil, basically. Yeah.

6:13

Then as you brought up, interestingly, as

6:15

we move into the 70s, there's a

6:18

bunch of movies that deal with demons

6:20

and Satan's. in addition to Amityville, it's

6:22

also the omen in 1976 and the

6:24

exorcist in 1973. So there's kind of

6:27

like a little trend going on about

6:29

people consuming this stuff in culture. The

6:31

exorcist is such an interesting one to

6:34

cite. Because I know at the time

6:36

it was really horrific and people were

6:38

like running out of the theater and

6:41

vomiting and things like that. But I

6:43

have a friend who's very very very

6:45

very into the exorcist both the movie

6:47

and the book that it was based

6:50

on. And we always laugh when people

6:52

say that it is somehow like by

6:54

enjoying this movie you're somehow worshiping the

6:57

devil because the plot of the exorcist

6:59

is that a priest who has like

7:01

lost his faith. saves a girl from

7:03

a demon by finding God again. I

7:06

was like you can't get more pro-Christian

7:08

right right in that plot of that

7:10

movie yeah the priest is the good

7:13

guy the hero right yeah but I

7:15

guess yeah it does suggest there's evil

7:17

evil among us sure but I guess

7:19

no one has ever denying that yeah

7:22

it's just people wanted to like shield

7:24

their eyes to it I guess you

7:26

didn't want to show it on screen

7:29

but I mean that's part of the

7:31

uh teaching of the church is like,

7:33

hey, the devil's here and he's going

7:35

to try and tempt you and do

7:38

all these things, so you've got to

7:40

have faith in God. Yeah, well, I

7:42

think, yeah, I'm trying to think of

7:45

like how, like religious ideas, maybe we're

7:47

also part of the satanic panic, but

7:49

I'm not sure I have a fully

7:51

formed thought about that. Yeah, well, maybe

7:54

we'll get there by the end. In

7:56

addition to the movies, there's also this

7:58

sort of like people started seeing, like

8:01

people started seeing Satan, Satan in like

8:03

corporation. And the two examples I have

8:05

is that in 1978, McDonald's had to

8:07

come out and deny that its founder,

8:10

Ray Krock, had to deny that he

8:12

was financially supporting the Church of Satan

8:14

because this rumor had spread that he'd

8:17

gone on the Phil Donahue show, it's

8:19

like a talk show, and admitted to

8:21

this on TV. And it wasn't like

8:23

now where you could look up the

8:26

clip on YouTube. You know people claim

8:28

that he had said this and then

8:30

it spread But it was hard to

8:33

kind of verify and he though he

8:35

was on the show he like the

8:37

transcript does exist and he never said

8:39

anything about Satan, you know, but yeah,

8:42

yeah, they did have to publicly deny

8:44

that And then in 1980, another rumor

8:46

spread that Procter and Gamble's logo, which

8:49

originally had 13 stars, which was a

8:51

nod to the 13 original colonies, was

8:53

actually a symbol of the devil. And

8:55

it became such interesting. It became such

8:58

a thing that they changed their logo

9:00

that they'd had for like 100 years.

9:02

Wow. Yeah. It started to really kind

9:05

of like manifest itself in an American

9:07

culture. This was all kind of like

9:09

simmering like going on and then in

9:12

1980 this book comes out called Michelle

9:14

remembers which I think is probably the

9:16

thing that most people would associate with

9:18

the satanic panic. It's a book written,

9:21

it's nonfiction, it's written by a therapist

9:23

named Lawrence Pasder and his patient Michelle

9:25

Smith and she has started seeing him

9:28

for help after a miscarriage. They were

9:30

together for two years. They also eventually

9:32

got married. So it's kind of an

9:34

interesting odd twist there. But a little

9:37

unethical, I think. A little bit. During

9:39

her therapy, he started practicing discredited form

9:41

of therapy called recovered memory therapy. And

9:44

suddenly all these things that she'd forgotten

9:46

were, you know, allegedly revived. And they

9:48

were some pretty incredible. unbelievable stuff. She

9:50

said that when she was five, she

9:53

suddenly remembered that she had been given

9:55

to strangers. who were really were

9:57

really members of

10:00

a Satanic cult. She said

10:02

she was said she

10:04

was tortured, abused. She'd

10:06

witnessed a orgy in which one of the

10:09

members was murdered, that she was buried

10:11

alive, that she was forced to kill

10:13

that she like all these really disturbing things.

10:16

like all if true. disturbing things. Crazy

10:18

if said Right. her 81st

10:20

day there, day there, the

10:22

performed a ritual and

10:24

the devil appeared ritual and the

10:26

devil appeared like, okay. she she

10:29

said at one point, I I think today

10:31

it's very, very wise to take a

10:33

good hard look at where you place

10:35

your children. place into whose care you place

10:37

your child. care place your this kick

10:39

starts this panic of people

10:41

going like of people going what

10:43

are these my God, what doing

10:45

to my children to my children? Yeah.

10:47

both at work? at work. Yeah, what's what are

10:50

kids doing when we can't watch

10:52

them? I feel like it's

10:54

important to note important to note the

10:56

way he did this discredited form

10:58

of therapy or the way

11:00

this memory or works, is hypnosis therapy

11:02

just quickly looking up the And

11:04

or the fact of the

11:06

matter here. up According to him,

11:09

he was seeing Smith as a

11:11

patient for Smith months. for 14 months

11:13

this. this quote unquote with

11:15

her. with her. and that that time

11:17

she spent more than six. more than

11:19

600 hours. hypnosis.

11:22

Wow. Which seems like a very

11:24

easy way seems like a

11:26

very someone's way to...

11:28

possibly implant false ones.

11:30

is if you think too if

11:32

false ones. in a culture Well, if

11:34

you think, too, if you're living in a culture

11:36

where this stuff is kind of the air, maybe you

11:39

the air. it make you can make

11:41

into its way into your subconscious and then and

11:43

then... Sure. and into your bank account if

11:45

you get a good book out

11:47

of it. of it. Right. yeah, yeah. Yeah, so this

11:49

book So this book comes out

11:51

in In 1983, this 1983, in the intro a was

11:53

set up in the intro a

11:55

bit, but this fear of Satan

11:58

makes its way to preschools. famous. the

12:00

McMurton preschool at Manhattan Beach, California,

12:02

which a mother went to the

12:04

police and said that her young

12:06

son, he was two, had been

12:08

abused by someone at the school.

12:10

And more strangely, I guess, she

12:12

said that the boy claimed that

12:14

there was a ritual type atmosphere

12:17

at the school. It's a really

12:19

wild thing for like, I was

12:21

a preschool age, like four. And

12:23

he was even younger, he's only

12:25

two, but... He's only two? Yeah,

12:27

for him to come... I doubt

12:29

he said ritual type atmosphere at

12:31

my school. Right. She got the

12:33

impression that's what existed. She also,

12:35

it did later come out that

12:38

she was diagnosed as a paranoid

12:40

schizophrenic and she later died of

12:42

alcoholism. So she did have some

12:44

problems of her own. But she,

12:46

so she went to the authorities

12:48

and told them this and then,

12:50

you know... this had to be

12:52

investigated of course and the investigators

12:54

who started looking into this started

12:57

hearing more and more stories about

12:59

this like horrible just unbelievable abuse

13:01

that was happening at the school.

13:03

Yes, yes, unbelievable. Well it was

13:05

like killing animals or like killing

13:07

babies in a church like this

13:09

stuff that but this investigation was

13:11

like pretty flawed. It started by

13:13

them sending this letter to 200

13:15

parents which caused panic and bias

13:18

from the very beginning and that

13:20

investigators would ask questions like leading

13:22

questions like can you remember the

13:24

naked pictures so that could get

13:26

like you know and then the

13:28

children were also told that their

13:30

classmates had already confessed quote-unquote yucky

13:32

secrets and one child that hesitated

13:34

to speak was called a scaredy

13:36

cat by the cops yeah by

13:39

the investigators I don't like it

13:41

was a cop it's like some

13:43

other like organization oh sure okay

13:45

I see like a like a

13:47

Either way. Not good, yeah. One

13:49

confessed later that he had lied

13:51

because of the investigator's pressure. And

13:53

at the very start with this,

13:55

they started asking the kids questions.

13:57

Most students denied anything had, anything

14:00

had, anything had gone wrong. But

14:02

at the end, they all started

14:04

describing witness, or maybe not all

14:06

of them, but a majority described

14:08

this horrific abuse that they had

14:10

seen at their school. So that

14:12

was one. Yeah. Yeah. The administrators

14:14

went on trial for this. The

14:16

trials dragged on for years. Eventually.

14:19

all the charges against them were

14:21

dismissed so there's that it is

14:23

like possible I've read things like

14:25

something something bad could have happened

14:27

to the original the two-year-old like

14:29

he could have been abused or

14:31

something that could have actually happened

14:33

but then this spiraled into this

14:35

bigger thing and yeah just these

14:37

stories they told just didn't it

14:40

was unbelievable stories right and it

14:42

wasn't the only preschool where this

14:44

happened like other preschools also had

14:46

similar type accusations and investigations and

14:48

investigations and investigations and investigations about

14:50

Wild Ritual type things going on

14:52

in dark rooms or whatnot. Well,

14:54

the schools are like one example,

14:56

but this was like much bigger

14:58

than than just that. You brought

15:01

up Dungeons and Dragons and in

15:03

1983, there was a mother whose

15:05

son died by suicide and she

15:07

formed an organization bothered about Dungeons

15:09

and Dragons or Bad. and claimed

15:11

that the game encouraged devil worship

15:13

and was replete with demonology and

15:15

satanic type rituals and that this

15:17

was a dangerous thing to let

15:20

into your children's lives. Yeah, I

15:22

mean if you play a warlock,

15:24

sure. Uh-huh. But I've heard that

15:26

argument too from just my stepfather-in-law.

15:28

I'm not married but the easiest

15:30

way to describe him. His son

15:32

also played. a lot of Dungeons

15:34

and Dragons and he still makes

15:36

comments about how it's devil worship.

15:38

I'm like, really? It's straight up

15:41

just a game. That's so interesting.

15:43

Does he also think that like

15:45

fantasy books with... I don't know.

15:47

I don't know. He might say

15:49

it in a more joking way.

15:51

It's kind of hard to tell.

15:53

He has this sarcastic inflection, but

15:55

it's also like you could just

15:57

be thinking that and saying it

15:59

in a way that doesn't sound

16:02

as controversial. Yeah, I guess the

16:04

game is sort of different than

16:06

like a book because you are

16:08

immersing yourself and Dungeons and the

16:10

Dragons. I've never played it before.

16:12

But my understanding is that you...

16:14

Yeah, you take on another identity

16:16

and maybe that's a role-playing game.

16:18

Yeah, right. You play the role

16:21

of a character. Yes. You act

16:23

it out, you do voices and

16:25

stuff, you don't have to do

16:27

voice, but a lot of people

16:29

do. Uh-huh. Maybe people saw some

16:31

sort of like a danger there.

16:33

He's also a very like, he

16:35

hunts and he's a very, um...

16:37

As an ex-military man, so he's

16:39

not, I don't think regardless, he's

16:42

reading fantasy novels. So it's hard

16:44

to gauge his opinion on fantasy.

16:46

His wife reads fantasy stuff and

16:48

watches fantasy movies, so I don't

16:50

think that's the problem. Okay, well,

16:52

sounds like he's a different definition

16:54

of like fun than his son.

16:56

Yeah. In another kind of similar

16:58

case. concerning a band. In 1985,

17:00

these two young men agreed to

17:03

a suicide pact, one died, one

17:05

didn't, and the survivor's parents sued

17:07

the band Judas Priest because their

17:09

songs allegedly contained hidden messages like

17:11

do it and let's be dead.

17:13

The band was found not liable

17:15

afterwards. But I think there was

17:17

a lot of, I don't think

17:19

they were the only band, I

17:21

mean obviously even the Beatles back

17:24

in the day, people found hidden

17:26

messages and things. Sure, sure, yeah,

17:28

I mean, Judas Priest probably just

17:30

targeted for the fact that they

17:32

were called for the fact that

17:34

they were called. Judas Priest. Right,

17:36

that's probably true. And then one

17:38

final, another kind of horrible example,

17:40

in the 90s, 993, these three

17:43

young boys were eight years old,

17:45

they were killed by, or allegedly

17:47

killed like us, by three teenagers

17:49

and the prosecutor. alleged the teenagers

17:51

who recalled the Memphis 3 had

17:53

killed the boys in a satanic

17:55

ritual. Yeah, they were convicted but

17:57

later freed. So yeah, that was

17:59

a very, I did an update

18:01

for our post on the West

18:04

Memphis 3. Mm. And it's very

18:06

interesting case. There's basically no evidence

18:08

pointing to these three kids. There

18:10

was no suggestion that they should

18:12

have. other than the fact that

18:14

they were kind of one of

18:16

them was kind of a goth.

18:18

And they were all like two

18:20

of them were high school dropouts.

18:22

One of them was actually like

18:25

he had like pretty good prospects.

18:27

People considered him like smart and

18:29

like he had a bright future

18:31

ahead of him. But he was

18:33

friends with I forget their names.

18:35

Friends with the one kid who

18:37

dropped out of high school who

18:39

dressed very gothi and they just

18:41

weren't in school that day. And

18:44

so people were like, oh, they

18:46

clearly look at these kids. They

18:48

must have been the ones to

18:50

abuse and murder these boys. There

18:52

was a little bit more evidence.

18:54

And I don't think the guy's

18:56

ever been implicated officially, but to

18:58

suggest that one of their stepfathers

19:00

was actually the one, because he

19:02

was like the last person seen

19:05

with them and he had said

19:07

some misleading things to investigators when

19:09

they looked into it. So. was

19:11

there I know that it was

19:13

a very it was a brutal

19:15

murder but was that the only

19:17

reason why they thought it was

19:19

satanic was because of just how

19:21

brutal it was yeah the kids

19:23

were found like naked and tied

19:26

up yeah in the woods so

19:28

people thought like oh maybe it

19:30

was a satanic ritual like a

19:32

sacrifice hmm but realistically it's more

19:34

likely just like really terrible sexual

19:36

abuse and murder from a non

19:38

Goth teen I'm not a teen

19:40

my point being right yeah, yeah

19:42

Like I said, I don't think

19:45

they ever officially implicated anyone else

19:47

So I won't make accusations, but

19:49

I will say the evidence points

19:51

to step father of one of

19:53

the boys and one of his

19:55

friends more than the

19:57

evidence points to

19:59

the West Memphis the

20:01

I see. three. I see. Well, yeah, at the

20:03

time at least people found an

20:05

easy explanation explanation Satan was involved somehow,

20:08

which I guess maybe is also

20:10

easy to do with something so

20:12

horrible happens to do with something. think

20:14

horrible one kid from that was

20:16

the inspiration for Eddie for Eddie and

20:18

Stranger Eddie? Which Eddie Eddie? Eddie is the,

20:20

the fourth season, season. the guy

20:22

in charge of the school's Hellfire

20:25

who plays D I think I

20:27

stopped watching after the third season.

20:29

season. Oh, well do it. do it. He's a

20:31

very popular character in the season. like

20:33

probably the character of that season. of

20:35

If anyone If anyone seen, you

20:38

know who I'm talking about. about.

20:40

though the show was set in the in the 80s,

20:42

still at the the height of the satanic panic, D&D

20:45

was still was still around, they kind of of

20:47

looked, and I think he was

20:49

loosely based off the of the West

20:51

Memphis Memphis Three. It's kind of an

20:53

interesting point actually point Things about though

20:56

the show was made even though years, was

20:58

made like 10 years. It is it does of combine

21:00

the 80s with this idea of like

21:02

there's evil like all around there's a

21:04

very like all around and this is a very Very

21:06

conspiratorial as well. A lot of like as

21:09

well a lot stuff. Director Things is

21:11

a good show. Sure thing is a good

21:13

the first the first season. And I thought like all

21:15

went kind of downhill. of have one

21:17

friend who have one friend who just not like

21:19

it it. I'm like like, I simply don't

21:21

understand it's so fun. really enjoyed that so fun. I really

21:23

enjoyed that first season. weird. So All the kids

21:25

are old now. yeah, this was weird. of like the

21:28

height of the satanic In any case, 80s this

21:30

was the, this was kind of

21:32

like the height of the satanic panic

21:34

in the And then in the 90s, like kind of, like

21:36

kind Dragons and music and everything. um,

21:38

And then in the um, um, it like

21:40

like, of, it kind of ebbed, but like,

21:42

but like, but like, did it ever really

21:44

go away? like, And I guess like, the

21:46

closest equivalent we have today perhaps is Qanon. I'm

21:48

not I'm not saying they're the ones,

21:50

but they believe is some are some sort

21:53

of like secret cabals you know, people

21:55

who who children and conduct these rituals these

21:57

rituals still see evidence of that in society.

21:59

So that to me. seems pretty similar to

22:01

what his tannic panic was at

22:03

its height. Yeah, like the pizza

22:05

gate thing, where they thought a

22:07

pizza shop, basement was where democratic

22:09

pedophile elites were auctioning off children

22:11

and things like that. Yeah, I

22:13

guess it's just become more fringe,

22:15

but I don't think it really

22:17

has gone away. Yeah, I think,

22:19

well, and again, I think it

22:21

sometimes, well, QNAN is a whole

22:23

different thing. I think trying to

22:25

find evidence of Satan in that

22:27

realm is one thing and trying

22:29

to ascribe really horrible things to

22:31

demons or Satan is like a

22:33

different thing like horrible murders or

22:35

tragedies or yeah I think there's

22:37

like a changing of the times

22:40

a lot of the people who

22:42

are concerned about the satanic panic

22:44

were older who were not familiar

22:46

with like you know there was

22:48

a big pushback when rock and

22:50

roll burst onto the scene. Even

22:52

with Elvis, like what we consider

22:54

tame rock and roll, and then

22:56

you have like more hardcore bands,

22:58

metal bands coming onto the scene,

23:00

who definitely leaned into like pagan

23:02

imagery a lot of the time.

23:04

Yeah, and the country was moving

23:06

to the right, Ronald Reagan, evangelicals,

23:08

and they probably looked for things

23:10

that were, you know, bad in

23:12

society, or those two contrast existed

23:14

anyway. Right, right. Yeah, and like

23:16

you made a good point about

23:18

Dungeons of Dragons, like if it's

23:20

such a it's such a weird

23:22

concept for a game at the

23:24

time, you know, be playing this

23:26

game where it's like, what do

23:28

you mean? What do you do?

23:30

It's like we just sit around

23:32

and we pretend to be elves

23:34

and dwarfs and things. We do

23:36

you, it's like, what do you

23:38

mean? We just sit around with

23:41

pens and paper and we pretend

23:43

to be fantasy creatures. And we

23:45

fight demons and they're like, demons

23:47

are in it. And apparently somebody

23:49

has to then play the demon

23:51

because, you know, the dungeon master

23:53

or whatever is doing the voice.

23:55

So, you know, you're a 60

23:57

year old mom and you're like,

23:59

I'm gonna take some snacks. down

24:01

to my son and his friends

24:03

are down there playing, I don't

24:05

know, some game that you think

24:07

is gonna be like monopoly and

24:09

you walk in and they're all

24:11

dressed in robes and they're like,

24:13

yeah, that might be, yeah, burns

24:15

in the fires of that and

24:17

it's like, oh, okay, you start

24:19

pranking and panicking, it's the weird

24:21

thing you walk into. That might

24:23

be a little confusing, yeah, you're

24:25

expecting monopoly and, yeah. Yeah, there's

24:27

this big, like, like, like, when

24:29

things like, like, like, like, like,

24:31

like, like, like, like, like, like,

24:33

like, like, like, this, like, like,

24:35

like, like, like, like, like, like,

24:37

like, like, like, like, like, like,

24:39

like, curiosity and a lot of

24:41

people where when they're confronted with

24:44

something new and something unfamiliar and

24:46

we can expand this metaphor or

24:48

whatever into like the queer communities

24:50

coming up as well when people

24:52

of a certain worldview who are

24:54

more closed off and really attached

24:56

to their view of the world

24:58

come in contact with something new

25:00

a lot of the time rather

25:02

than ask questions or try and

25:04

understand it. they reject it because

25:06

it doesn't fit what they think.

25:08

And I'm not even just talking

25:10

about like conservatives. I don't want

25:12

this to sound like I'm just

25:14

like attacking religious or a certain

25:16

political belief. This is this happens

25:18

with people who lean left as

25:20

well. Yeah. You know people just

25:22

don't like to ask questions about

25:24

things or trying to understand things.

25:26

They just reject it and they

25:28

go that's not. That doesn't fit

25:30

my perception, so it's bad. Well,

25:32

and I think when things that

25:34

are bad do happen, like I

25:36

said before, you look for a

25:38

reason. These parents that we brought

25:40

up are Dungeons and the Dragons,

25:42

Judas Priest, they had lost their

25:44

children, or almost lost their children,

25:47

they were like, why? Oh, it's

25:49

these, it's the devil, like, something

25:51

made them do this. I mean,

25:53

you can even talk about like

25:55

Columbine and, you know, Goths or

25:57

that kind of music or whatever

25:59

being like a reason. It's a

26:01

little bit different, but. Well, no,

26:03

it's the same. I mean, sort

26:05

of the same thing, because, uh,

26:07

what's her name? Jasmine Richardson, the

26:09

like, 12-year-old girl who killed her

26:11

entire family. She was really into

26:13

Goth culture and things like that,

26:15

but obviously most Goths haven't murdered

26:17

their entire family. But a lot

26:19

of people blamed that. And it's

26:21

really was probably more of like

26:23

a confluence of like mental health

26:25

issues, early access to the internet,

26:27

her being manipulated by an older

26:29

guy. Like there's a lot of

26:31

different factors that like now in

26:33

2024 we have a little bit

26:35

more of understanding about mental health

26:37

and why. People would kill themselves.

26:39

But back then, you, you know,

26:41

50 years ago, you were like,

26:43

I don't know, my son was

26:45

playing this game and there's a

26:47

demon on the cover and then

26:50

he killed himself. Yeah. Obviously, it's

26:52

the game. I think the same

26:54

conversation happened, like, with violent video

26:56

games and like, Yeah, I mean,

26:58

maybe in some cases, but I

27:00

do think most people have the

27:02

ability to recognize. I don't know.

27:04

I have nothing to back up

27:06

my statement, so I guess I'll

27:08

just not say it. Well, no,

27:10

no, I'm curious. I don't know.

27:12

When you have video games, you're

27:14

like shooting people. I feel like

27:16

that must desensitize people to actually,

27:18

when something's fiction and not real.

27:20

Yeah, I think you're right, mental

27:22

health does play a role. I

27:24

guess I'm thinking about like school

27:26

shootings in particular, but yeah. Yeah,

27:28

but I mean even on 1999,

27:30

I guess video games weren't as

27:32

violent in 1999. So no, but

27:34

like later, I know that was

27:36

a part of the conversation though.

27:38

Yeah, I feel like Ben with

27:40

mostly like Marilyn Manson and yeah,

27:42

yeah. I think a big part

27:44

of it too. I've always put

27:46

out the counter argument that if

27:48

somebody really wants to murder. But

27:50

they have a video game that

27:53

lets, well, won't you have, if

27:55

they really want to murder real

27:57

people, they'll murder real people regardless.

27:59

But also maybe video. games could

28:01

be an outlet for those tendencies.

28:03

Maybe. I mean, it could also

28:05

be like something that scratches the

28:07

edge, but like isn't enough. That's

28:09

true. I mean, yeah. Serial killers,

28:11

you watch like violent pornography or

28:13

something and then like they go

28:15

and do horrible things. Yeah, yeah.

28:17

I mean, I think, I don't

28:19

know. I've played video games by

28:21

entire life. I've never murdered anybody.

28:23

Not yet. Yeah, it's right. Yeah.

28:25

Yeah. If I ever get in

28:27

trouble, come back to this podcast.

28:29

Right. So we played nonstop on

28:31

the news. But no, I mean,

28:33

yeah, there is there is an

28:35

argument to me that exposure to

28:37

certain amounts of violence. But there's

28:39

also point point in case here.

28:41

I just saw the new nose

28:43

for a two. Oh, yeah. And

28:45

then I went back and watched

28:47

some of the original 1920 to

28:49

one and then I watched a

28:51

little bit of the 1979 one

28:53

just to like compare. And the

28:56

1920-22 one was considered horrifying for

28:58

the time. And now it's very

29:00

goofy to watch. It's a 100-year-old

29:02

movie. It's silent, right? And it's

29:04

a silent film as well. But

29:06

people were terrified. And like you

29:08

mentioned, people thought the actor who

29:10

played Orloch, or what a yeah.

29:12

People thought he might have actually

29:14

been a vampire because he was

29:16

so convincing in it. But now

29:18

you go back and you're like,

29:20

that is a ridiculous looking. and

29:22

so we see something on a

29:24

screen now and we're like maybe

29:26

not everybody was much more horrifying

29:28

and technically impressive and again it's

29:30

hundred years in movie making but

29:32

like overall media literacy has kind

29:34

of evolved with the technology and

29:36

so we see something on a

29:38

screen now and we're like maybe

29:40

I mean maybe not everybody does

29:42

this I have a film background

29:44

so But I stopped being less

29:46

afraid of horror movies after going

29:48

to film school because you started

29:50

to see how the movies made

29:52

and how those things come together

29:54

on screen. Right. How the sausage

29:57

is made. Yeah, how the

29:59

sausage is made.

30:01

So the, you know, the we had

30:03

back in the day when these things were

30:05

first coming out versus the sensibilities we have now.

30:08

And I think video games fall into that same

30:10

category, like maybe at first it was like, same this

30:12

is horrible. What do you mean you it was like,

30:14

oh God, somebody who rips out somebody else's

30:16

spine you can play as that's insane. now it's

30:18

like, well, yeah, I know, but we

30:20

recognize. in more combat? a separation between

30:22

reality yeah, what you're seeing on a

30:24

screen. there's a was like

30:26

a get very early. and what you're

30:29

seeing. where a train straight straight

30:31

at the screen. like they filmed a train

30:33

approaching the the camera and people were so afraid

30:35

afraid away from the screen when they saw

30:37

it. the You'd be crazy to do

30:39

that now. You'd be like, well, to

30:41

do that now. on the like, what? Obviously, right. on

30:43

the flat TV. Right, right. Yeah. The films that films

30:45

though are to bring up thing to

30:48

know, up because, you know, the in you

30:50

know, I guess the I were

30:52

made that he sort of represented

30:54

the danger of disease represented things

30:56

like that. and he was and

30:58

He was not. that. It's a a natural

31:00

thing that can happen that he was he was

31:02

thing in society that was like and then

31:04

the actual vampire and then the actual

31:06

vampire The Dracula the Bram

31:08

Stoker was a sort of. that was the

31:11

represented I think a lot of

31:13

things but also like changing a

31:15

lot of about like sex like it's

31:17

dangerous about like sex and like evil people

31:19

are like evil people gonna take these

31:21

like take women and convert them

31:23

or whatever. convert them or their

31:25

blood. drink their right, and then... right

31:28

and and I I think that's an example

31:30

of like... of like, I'm I'm trying to

31:32

like draw the line more concretely more

31:34

but it's like an evil that exists

31:36

in the panic, people it's like an evil that afraid

31:38

of. And I think that Dracula kind

31:40

of embodied that. of. And it was

31:42

in in these you know music that

31:44

people thought was in these, you know,

31:46

the devil that people thought was and Dragons,

31:49

things like that. It was like,

31:51

it's fine and it's out there in

31:53

the world. like that. it's not fine, but

31:55

you know, we acknowledge it's out there in the world.

31:57

the world. in the the same way that

31:59

Dracula far away. in his castle in Transylvania,

32:01

he's this evil, he's somewhere else.

32:03

Yeah, but he comes to England.

32:05

Well, yeah, sure, I mean, yeah,

32:07

I know, yeah, but the plot,

32:09

but regardless, you know, he comes

32:11

to England and that's, that's the

32:13

scary thing is now he's coming

32:15

to our home. things like metal

32:17

music and Dungeons of Dragons were

32:19

seen as like people literally bringing

32:21

those things into your home into

32:23

their mind, their souls, yeah. So

32:25

now suddenly it's not this evil

32:28

that exists somewhere else out in

32:30

the world, it's in your home,

32:32

in your mind and like, I

32:34

think there was a lot of

32:36

concern about that. It reminds me

32:38

of a, I think it was

32:40

a Bill Clinton ad, maybe it

32:42

was Hillary Clinton. It's that one,

32:44

it's a, it's three a. Do

32:46

you know where your children are

32:48

your children are that political ad?

32:50

I feel like, I don't know,

32:52

they're going to get up to

32:54

some horrible mischief. The devil lurks

32:56

everywhere. Yeah. It always feels like

32:58

projection when people do that. Well,

33:00

yeah. It's like, it's playing on

33:02

people's fears. Where are your kids,

33:04

they must be doing something bad.

33:06

You were a kid. You did

33:08

something bad. Right. Yeah. There's always

33:10

been that idea of good versus

33:12

evil. Yeah, and don't let your

33:14

guard down. Evil is everywhere. Right.

33:16

I think there was also like

33:18

a big rise in secularism around

33:20

that time as well. People were

33:22

in the 80s. Late 80s, early

33:24

90s. I think we were starting

33:26

to enter a more secular era

33:28

in general. That was around the

33:31

time. Church scandal started becoming like

33:33

a little more mainstream. It's interesting

33:35

so I think in like yeah

33:37

in like maybe the 60s and

33:39

70s people stopped going to church

33:41

as much and then there was

33:43

a huge pushback of like yeah

33:45

evangelicals and these mega churches and

33:47

things I think that was a

33:49

very interesting like tension that started

33:51

to emerge in society in that

33:53

time yeah and I wouldn't be

33:55

surprised if some of those mega

33:57

churches, things were also the ones

33:59

pushing this agenda to get people

34:01

to come back to church and

34:03

give them more money to make

34:05

more mega churches. That's a really

34:07

interesting idea, because it seems like

34:09

this sort of just developed naturally

34:11

in a way, but. I think

34:13

there was definitely some sort of

34:15

overarching manipulation to instill this fear.

34:17

Uh-huh. Because people could have easily,

34:19

you know, if they really wanted

34:21

to tamp the fear down. if

34:23

they didn't want this mass hysteria,

34:25

the government or a larger institution

34:27

like the Catholic Church could have

34:29

come out and been like, you

34:32

guys got to chill? I don't

34:34

think that's possible once you let

34:36

the genie out of the bottle.

34:38

I mean, look at like, maybe

34:40

this is not a perfect example,

34:42

but like vaccines, now the people

34:44

are like, vaccines might be evil.

34:46

The government can say all they

34:48

want about. Well, people had more

34:50

faith in the government back then.

34:52

True. Yeah, I don't know. These

34:54

ideas, I think, are very pervasive.

34:56

Like, had, like, let's say, the

34:58

Pope come out of the time

35:00

and been, like, Dungeons Dragons isn't

35:02

devil worship, folks. I wonder if

35:04

that would help or, like, make

35:06

the distance between the two groups,

35:08

like, even larger, like, it'll make

35:10

the parents more panicked and the

35:12

kids, like, you know, want to

35:14

play the game more. Oh, I

35:16

see. The official's face was like,

35:18

it's fine. Yeah, it's fine. You

35:20

can play it. If people would

35:22

have still had that perception. Maybe.

35:24

I think one of two things

35:26

would have happened. Either they'd have

35:28

been like, okay, it's fine. The

35:30

Catholic Church says it's fine. Or

35:32

they'd be like, the church has

35:35

corrupted. The demons got the Pope.

35:42

One other thing we can touch on

35:45

before we finish up the episode is

35:47

that voicemail if you like right? Yeah.

35:49

Yeah. We got a very interesting voicemail

35:51

to prove to you that we do

35:54

listen to these. Let me find the

35:56

transcript just so I a woman named

35:58

Leslie called him, hi Leslie if you're

36:00

listening, thank you for calling in, let

36:02

us know a very interesting story. Leslie

36:05

told us after listening to the Kevin

36:07

Curtis episode that she actually did kind

36:09

of know Kevin Curtis via the internet

36:11

that they used to chat on like

36:13

Yahoo, she said maybe Yahoo Messenger could

36:16

have been AIM, some sort of messaging

36:18

app and she says, anyway, so I've

36:20

watched the first episode of Kings of

36:22

Kings of Tupolo. the Netflix show about

36:25

Kevin Curtis and it's hysterical. I laughed

36:27

the whole freaking time because like almost

36:29

every every word out of his mouth

36:31

was just a lie like down to

36:33

when he bought his computer because I

36:36

know I was talking to him online

36:38

before he bought that computer. So that's

36:40

so wild someone actually would like know

36:42

him. Yeah. Yeah. I mean sounds like

36:44

he was a hard person to miss

36:47

in his. Yeah, we don't even, I

36:49

mean, she didn't say she's from Tupolo.

36:51

So I don't know if like, she

36:53

actually, she said she talked to him

36:56

online. Could have been from anywhere. But

36:58

it was, yeah, it was very interesting.

37:00

And I have many questions I would

37:02

like to ask her now. But yeah,

37:04

thank you for calling in Leslie. I

37:07

really got a kick out of your

37:09

voicemail. Yeah, we, we, we, we, we

37:11

have a little podcast chat chat and

37:13

slack. We were all really interested to,

37:16

to, to, to, to, to, to, to,

37:18

to listen to, to listen to listen

37:20

to listen to listen to listen to,

37:22

to listen to, to, to, to, to,

37:24

to listen to, to, to, to, to

37:27

listen to, to, to, to, to, to,

37:29

to, to, to, to, to, to, to,

37:31

to, to, to, to, to, to, to,

37:33

to, to, to, to, to, to, to

37:35

I haven't watched the documentary yet. You

37:38

said you were maybe going to, but

37:40

we're recording this so early. Yeah, I've

37:42

not seen it yet. I haven't had

37:44

the time. We just talked last week,

37:47

I think, was. Yeah, it was only

37:49

week ago. Yeah, like this episode's coming

37:51

out of what January 8th or whatever.

37:53

I want to say. But we're recording

37:55

it on December 13th. Yes, Taylor's birthday.

37:58

This one's for you. Right, a satanic

38:00

panic. Yeah. So yeah, so yeah, we

38:02

are recording this December 13th, just a

38:04

week after we talked about the last.

38:06

So no, I have not had a

38:09

chance to watch it yet. I think

38:11

it just came out. Yeah, I think

38:13

it was coming out like the day

38:15

after last night. So it was published.

38:18

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, right. Or maybe

38:20

two nights ago, but I guess, yeah,

38:22

that's maybe a good segue to say

38:24

that people, if other people want to

38:26

call in and talk about their experience

38:29

with satanic panic, or. Or now. Yeah,

38:31

you can, we do listen to all

38:33

those voicemails and yeah, you can call

38:35

in at 929, 526, 3029, but if

38:37

you are a millennial who's terrified of

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also email us at podcast at all

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is interesting.com and we read those too.

38:46

Yes, and of course, if you want

38:49

to read more about anything we've talked

38:51

about. Here, Kalina did an updated post

38:53

on The Satanic Panic. I did one

38:55

on the West Memphis 3. We have

38:57

plenty of other stuff too. I believe

39:00

we have a post that gets into

39:02

the story behind the filming of the

39:04

exorcist because that was an allegedly cursed

39:06

movie set as well. Oh, yeah, that's

39:08

a cursed Hollywood stuff. Yeah, so we

39:11

have some cursed movie set posts and

39:13

other similar things on all that's interesting.com.

39:15

You can check that out. We're constantly

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where we are joined by our fellow

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writer Amber and we talk about all

39:42

the latest history news and anniversaries and

39:44

anniversaries. There will not be one this

39:46

month just because we're on a shortened

39:48

schedule for the holidays and I'm sure

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everyone listening will be. busy

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for the holidays anyway,

39:55

and probably not

39:57

listening and many podcasts.

39:59

But in January, we

40:02

will be back

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with that. But in stay

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tuned. we will be back the show to

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your friends if you like it. Give us a

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Spotify does you know, I it's just a

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thumbs up or whatever. on, it a good

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40:31

YouTube? We are just history uncovered

40:33

on are just history uncovered on YouTube.

40:36

have there. You up there. You might be

40:38

listening to it, but there's also shorts

40:40

as well. And yeah, we'll we'll be

40:42

back. episode, yeah, episode drops

40:44

in January. after that, And then after

40:46

that. more cool We'll have some more cool stuff, but we

40:48

need to talk about what that's gonna be. to we'll

40:50

figure that out. that out. get our

40:52

schedule ready and, you know, stay tuned.

40:54

and, you know, you know, stay it'll for sure hey,

40:56

interesting. sure. It'll for sure. Right. Happy New

40:58

Year, everybody. Hope it went well. the

41:00

holidays were nice for 2025.

41:03

you. Happy 2025, let's see. 2020-25,

41:05

see what happens. Let's see what It's

41:07

going to be great. gonna be

41:09

great.