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0:36

February 21st, 1965, Malcolm

0:38

X was assassinated at

0:41

the Audubon Ballroom in

0:43

New York City's Washington Heights.

0:45

As he was getting ready

0:47

to go on stage and deliver

0:49

a speech, three men forced their

0:51

way through the crowd, rushed the

0:54

stage, and shot Malcolm X

0:56

multiple times. He was rushed to

0:59

the hospital, but unfortunately to

1:01

come to his wounds shortly after. It wasn't

1:03

exactly a secret why Malcolm X was

1:05

killed. He was one of the most

1:07

influential leaders of the civil

1:09

rights movement, but his vision for

1:12

the movement was different than that

1:14

of some of his contemporaries, particularly

1:16

the peaceful unifying message of Martin

1:18

Luther King Jr. Whereas King approached civil

1:20

rights from an integrationist nonviolent

1:23

perspective, Malcolm X approached the

1:25

movement as a black nationalist

1:27

with a belief that black

1:29

people should secure their freedom

1:31

and equality, quote, by whatever

1:33

means necessary. Although both men would

1:35

ultimately be killed because of their views

1:37

and influence, the circumstances surrounding

1:39

their deaths could not be more

1:42

different. Malcolm X's message naturally resonated

1:44

with many, but it also garnered

1:46

him plenty of enemies, both black

1:49

and white. King himself referred to

1:51

Malcolm X's rhetoric as fiery demagogic

1:53

oratory, that encouraged people to

1:55

arm themselves and prepare to engage

1:58

in violence, language which he felt

2:00

can reap nothing but grief. Malcolm

2:02

X publicly made statements to celebrate

2:05

the deaths of white people and

2:07

even prayed that God would offer

2:09

similar blessings in the future. His

2:12

statements were inflammatory, sure, but to

2:14

many it felt like a natural

2:16

response to the decades, centuries really,

2:19

of violent systemic oppression that black

2:21

Americans had faced. His message reflected

2:23

a profound distrust in a system

2:25

that had for so long failed

2:28

to protect people like him, let

2:30

alone empower them. King felt that

2:32

if people came together, they could

2:35

change the system. Malcolm X felt

2:37

that a revolution was in order

2:39

not to change the system. Not

2:42

to change the system. but to

2:44

dismantle it. To some, this was

2:46

a terrifying idea, especially when the

2:48

movement was being led by a

2:51

black Muslim man. Moreover, his split

2:53

from the nation of Islam and

2:55

subsequent formation of the organization of

2:58

Afro-American unity had turned even his

3:00

former allies into enemies. Where Malcolm

3:02

X had once viewed the leader

3:05

of the nation of Islam, Elijah

3:07

Muhammad as something of a mentor,

3:09

Muhammad's extramarital affairs and sharp ideological

3:11

differences. set the stage for a

3:14

deep rift to form between them,

3:16

and this persistent tension had deadly

3:18

consequences. All of this came to

3:21

a head on that fateful day

3:23

in February 1965. After the shots

3:25

were fired, the crowd of the

3:28

Audubon ballroom turned on his assailants

3:30

relentlessly attacking them, until police arrived

3:32

and took them into custody. Three

3:35

men were convicted of the killing,

3:37

all of them members of the

3:39

nation of Islam. Tomage Hayer, also

3:41

known as Thomas Hagan, Norman, 3X

3:44

Butler, and Thomas, 15X Johnson. However,

3:46

Hayer always maintained that Butler and

3:48

Johnson were innocent, and recent updates

3:51

in the investigation, only make it

3:53

more difficult to answer the question,

3:55

who really killed Malcolm X? You're

4:02

listening to History Uncovered, brought to you

4:04

by the digital publisher All It's Interesting,

4:06

where we explore the uncharted corners of

4:08

the natural world and the world past.

4:10

I'm all that's interesting staff writer Austin

4:13

Harvey. And I'm All It's Interesting, staff

4:15

writer Colina Fraga. And today, we're looking

4:17

into the assassination of Malcolm X and

4:19

who really killed him. We

4:23

talked about a couple other assassinations.

4:25

We talked about JFK. I know

4:27

for sure in a similar format.

4:30

And Andrew Jackson. Well, he wasn't

4:32

actually assassinated. The assassination attempt. And

4:34

Teddy Roosevelt's. Oh, attempts. Yeah, attempted

4:36

assassinations. That's right. I guess JFK

4:39

is the only other actual like

4:41

assassination. I think so. Lincoln, maybe

4:43

we talked about or but. Yeah,

4:45

that was a crossover episode, right.

4:48

You talked about John Wiltsbuth with

4:50

Gavin from The Art of Time.

4:52

That was a while ago though.

4:54

Yeah. But this is more similar

4:57

to that JFK one because there's

4:59

a little bit of mystery controversy,

5:01

sort of. Yeah, very similar situation

5:03

where it's like they technically got

5:05

the guy. Well. But there's some

5:08

debate about whether it was just one

5:10

guy, whether it was multiple people, what

5:12

the motivation was, whether there were. some

5:14

sort of hidden machinations behind the scene

5:16

that Came together in this conspiratorial way

5:19

to take him down right so we'll

5:21

get into that a little bit later.

5:23

I wanted to just start off going

5:25

You and I were sort of just

5:28

briefly saying right before we started recording

5:30

You don't really learn a lot about

5:32

Malcolm X in school compared to like

5:34

Martin Luther King Jr. Who was obviously

5:36

another major figure of the civil rights

5:39

movement and sort of like I think

5:41

just the one who gets a lot

5:43

of the credit for it today right

5:45

yeah but it's easy to forget Malcolm

5:48

X was like a also a very

5:50

very big part of it just in

5:52

a very different way a huge part

5:54

of it I have to say one

5:56

of those interesting books I read about

5:59

the civil rights era in the last

6:01

couple years was called The Sword and

6:03

the Shield and it's kind of it's

6:05

tracking MLK Malcolm X is kind of

6:07

like parallel rises and they start being

6:10

really far apart on like most things

6:12

but they start moving towards each other

6:14

towards the end of their lives. That's

6:17

very interesting. And they only meet one

6:19

time ever for... Yes, which we do have an

6:21

entire podcast episode about that, that was before my

6:23

time. Oh, did we do a podcast on that,

6:25

did I do that? I think I

6:28

did. Yeah, it's just interesting because they

6:30

both had different kinds of influence on

6:32

the movement and that book was really

6:34

great and kind of like laying out

6:36

both their lives, how they were similar

6:38

and different and how their thinking kind

6:41

of changed. Like, MOK became more sort

6:43

of more radical in a way where he was

6:45

coming out against Vietnam and his

6:47

war on poverty and Malcolm was

6:49

moving more towards like the center

6:51

and like wanting to work with

6:53

civil rights like leaders like. like

6:55

king versus the nation of Islam.

6:57

Right. And also interesting the way

6:59

that religion influenced both of their

7:01

perspectives, because Martin Luther King was

7:04

a preacher, if I'm remembering properly.

7:06

Oh yeah. His preacher, Malcolm X,

7:08

obviously major influential figure in the

7:10

nation of Islam initially. Yeah, right.

7:12

And then after, which we'll get

7:15

into it, but he goes to

7:17

Mecca at one point, it comes

7:19

back and that sort of started

7:21

that deep. radicalization process for him.

7:23

So yeah, very, very curious. But

7:26

like, yeah, often an overlooked part

7:28

of like the American education

7:30

system is like talk a lot

7:32

about Martin Luther King, the fact that

7:34

he was like this big peaceful movement.

7:37

And I said as much a minute

7:39

ago, but I think the reason it

7:41

was because he was so much more

7:43

peace preaching and the school system

7:46

maybe doesn't want to touch

7:48

the more radical aspect of

7:50

that movement. Right, which I think

7:52

is a mistake personally, but... No, I

7:54

agree. I fully agree. So, I guess we'll

7:56

ratify that a little bit today,

7:58

rectify it. Sorry. Rectify by

8:01

radicalizing, yes. Yeah. So, a

8:03

little background on Malcolm X.

8:05

He was born on May

8:07

19th, 1925 in Omaha, Nebraska.

8:09

His name was Malcolm Little

8:11

by birth. His father, Earl

8:13

Little, was a Baptist minister

8:15

and a huge supporter of

8:17

the black national leader, Marcus

8:19

Garvey. Given that this was

8:21

1920's America in Nebraska, that...

8:23

support sort of put a

8:25

target on the families back,

8:27

or a little by being

8:29

this vocal activist, sort of

8:31

inadvertently caused his family to

8:33

be targeted by white supremacist

8:35

groups like the Ku Klux

8:37

Klan. They then moved to

8:39

Milwaukee and later Lansing, Michigan,

8:41

where their home was reportedly

8:43

burned down by another white

8:45

supremacist group, the Black Legion,

8:47

who I had actually never

8:49

heard of the Black Legion.

8:51

before this and I find

8:53

it somewhat ironic that they

8:55

called themselves the Black Legion

8:57

and they were a white

8:59

supremacist group. Yeah, that's true.

9:01

It feels like the White

9:03

Legion might have, not to

9:05

give the racist ideas, branding

9:07

maybe, I don't know guys.

9:09

Earl Little then died in

9:11

1931 of what they officially

9:13

deemed to be a streetcar

9:15

incident, but Malcolm's mother Louise

9:17

thought that it might have

9:19

been orchestrated by the Black

9:21

Legion, that sentiment. understandably affected

9:23

Malcolm as he was growing

9:25

up. Following Earl's death their

9:27

family was like plunged in

9:29

financial instability. His mother suffered

9:31

a mental health breakdown in

9:33

1938 and was committed to

9:35

the Kalamazoo State Hospital after

9:37

which her children were dispersed

9:39

among foster homes. He liked

9:41

a lot of siblings too

9:43

I think. Yeah, it was

9:46

a big fan of a

9:48

lot to take on for

9:50

her. That's a lot of

9:52

tragedy and... fairly influential period

9:54

of your life, age 6

9:56

to 13. Oh yeah. So,

9:58

yeah, I mean, that's gonna

10:00

set the groundwork for someone

10:02

to be pretty. radical, which

10:04

I think. Well, to see

10:06

that the system is stacked

10:08

against you, yeah. Yeah. And

10:10

to be told, like, by

10:12

your mother, that she's pretty

10:14

sure some racist white people

10:16

killed your dad. Yeah. Which,

10:18

I don't know if they

10:20

did or didn't, but I

10:22

wouldn't be surprised. I think

10:24

it's unknown, but there is

10:26

like, I think there is

10:28

evidence that that could have

10:30

happened. I think it's safe

10:32

to say that it's at

10:34

least a non-zero chance. Yeah.

10:36

Right. Despite all of this,

10:38

Malcolm was an academic success.

10:40

He excelled academically. He initially

10:42

wanted to be a lawyer.

10:44

A teacher discouraged those ambitions.

10:46

They're not doing their job

10:48

properly either. The way, what

10:50

they said was also terrible.

10:52

They said that law was

10:54

no realistic goal for an

10:56

n-word. I won't obviously say

10:58

it. So I don't know.

11:00

Maybe not. doing a good

11:02

job there, teach, but that

11:04

was 1940s America. After he,

11:06

you know, graduated, he eventually

11:08

moved to Boston, where he

11:10

lived with his half-sister, Ella

11:12

Little Collins, and then later

11:14

moved to Harlem, where he

11:16

became involved in illicit activities,

11:18

like drug dealing, gambling, and

11:20

burglary. So, sort of the

11:22

exact opposite of the direction

11:24

he had originally planned. In

11:26

1946, he was arrested for

11:28

larceny and breaking and entering,

11:30

resulting in a prison sentence

11:32

of eight to ten years.

11:34

During his incarceration, he underwent

11:36

a profound transformation where he

11:38

basically immersed himself in like

11:40

literature, philosophy, history, and religion.

11:42

And between that and correspondence

11:44

with his siblings, that is

11:46

what led him to the

11:48

nation of Islam. He adopted

11:50

the analyze principles, which emphasized

11:52

black empowerment and self-reliance. dropped

11:54

his surname, changed it to

11:56

X, and this was meant

11:58

to be. a symbolic way

12:00

of signifying the loss

12:03

of his ancestral identity due

12:05

to slavery, which is a very

12:07

interesting. I never knew why

12:09

he called himself Malcolm X

12:11

before doing this research. Oh yeah,

12:13

I think he wasn't the only one

12:15

who did that. Yeah, we'll mention a

12:18

couple names later on, but yeah, there

12:20

was a lot of people who did

12:22

that. It might have been like

12:24

the majority of people in

12:26

the organization. His relationship

12:29

with the nation of Islam

12:31

is very interesting and also

12:34

potentially the reason behind why

12:36

he was assassinated. I think

12:38

obviously it goes without saying

12:41

that he became fairly influential

12:43

as a result of this

12:45

organization and that was kind of

12:48

a twofold thing of just him

12:50

naturally being very charismatic and also

12:52

He was mentored by the leader

12:55

of the Nation of Islam, who

12:57

was named Elijah Muhammad. And

12:59

Malcolm X quickly rose up through it.

13:01

And then some cracks started to

13:04

form in their relationship around

13:06

April 1962. There was a

13:08

violent confrontation between the LAPD

13:11

and members of the Nation

13:13

of Islam, which resulted in

13:15

the death of somebody named

13:17

Ronald Stokes, after which Malcolm

13:19

X was like... pretty quick

13:21

to advocate for a strong

13:23

response to that. Basically calling

13:25

for like violence. Elijah

13:28

Muhammad tempered that a little

13:30

bit and opted to take a

13:32

little bit more of a restrained

13:35

approach to the situation. This

13:37

made Malcolm X very frustrated

13:40

and he basically

13:42

concluded that like the

13:44

organization was taking too passive

13:46

of a stance on injustice.

13:48

And then he learned about some

13:51

of Elijah Mohammed's personal conduct.

13:53

There were allegations, levy, that

13:55

he'd have been engaging in

13:57

extra marital, extra marital affairs.

13:59

with young secretaries in the organization,

14:02

which naturally would go against the

14:04

moral teachings of Islam and the

14:06

organization as a whole, were in

14:08

a larger context. When Malcolm X

14:11

confronted him about this, he basically

14:13

confirmed that it was true. He

14:15

was like, yeah, no, I have

14:17

been cheating on my wife with

14:20

secretaries, which I naturally disenfranchised Malcolm

14:22

X. and led to a lot

14:24

of questions about whether or not

14:26

Elijah Muhammad was actually equipped properly

14:29

from like a moral perspective to

14:31

be leading the organization. Right. Which

14:33

leads us into a sort of

14:35

a weird territory here where Malcolm

14:37

X was already highly influential and

14:40

a lot of people listened to

14:42

what he had to say and

14:44

then he started saying some things

14:46

that maybe weren't very well thought

14:49

out or kosher for the culture.

14:51

After the JFK assassination in 1963,

14:53

Malcolm X made a remark that

14:55

it was a case of, quote,

14:58

chickens coming home to roost, implying

15:00

that America's history of violence had

15:02

led to that outcome, which a

15:04

lot of people did not take

15:07

kindly to. Sure, but I mean,

15:09

there is a history of violence.

15:11

I understand the sentiment 100 percent.

15:13

I'm sure it wasn't a very

15:15

popular thing for him to say.

15:18

It's like one of those like

15:20

pick your battles sort of situation

15:22

is where Kennedy was like a

15:24

very well-liked guy and that his

15:27

assassination itself was considered a national

15:29

tragedy and so then maybe being

15:31

like well he kind of had

15:33

it coming it's like mmm I

15:36

don't know I feel like it's

15:38

like this nation has these like

15:40

horrible sins so like oh for

15:42

sure no yeah like I said

15:45

I get where he's coming from

15:47

I'm just saying if you're trying

15:49

to like deliver a message It's

15:51

maybe not the best time to

15:53

deliver that message. Maybe. I don't

15:56

know. I feel like he was

15:58

like, people would have seen that.

16:00

Some people would have seen that

16:02

as like speaking truth to power

16:05

kind of. Fair enough. I mean,

16:07

hey, we're talking. about it now.

16:09

That's right. Yeah. 60 years later.

16:11

So I guess, fair enough. That's

16:14

true. It's stuck. I mean, he

16:16

also said something. I'm not sure

16:18

if you have this, what he

16:20

said about like the, um, the

16:23

march on Washington. I, I can't

16:25

find the quote like this quickly,

16:27

but obviously Martin Luther King was

16:29

like, I have a dream. That

16:32

was the whole like speech and

16:34

Malcolm X's response to that was

16:36

like, this is where we're like

16:38

trapped in the American like nightmare.

16:40

Like nightmare. Whoever heard of angry

16:43

revolutionists all harmonizing, we shall overcome

16:45

someday while tripping and swaying along

16:47

arm and arm with the very

16:49

people they were supposed to be

16:52

angrily revolting against. Whoever heard of

16:54

angry revolutionists swinging their bare feet

16:56

together with their oppressor in lily

16:58

pad park pools with gospels and

17:01

guitars and I have a dream

17:03

speeches. And the black masses in

17:05

America were and still are having

17:07

a nightmare. That's, yeah. That's good.

17:10

The quote I had, which is

17:12

kind of the same I guess,

17:14

but it's like, while King was

17:16

having a dream, the rest of

17:18

us are having a nightmare. Oh,

17:21

okay. So, sort of, yeah, heartening

17:23

back, yeah. But anyway, he was

17:25

like, that was a very popular

17:27

event. I think most Americans, like

17:30

many white Americans, probably saw with

17:32

like some hope, but Malcolm X

17:34

saw it as maybe performative and

17:36

not really doing anything to help.

17:39

we should all come together. Right.

17:41

And Malcolm was like, maybe we

17:43

don't. Yeah, and he's like, maybe,

17:45

maybe that's not possible. Yeah. Yeah,

17:48

right. And his philosophy was like,

17:50

you're, you know, we, like, black

17:52

people are being, like, suppressed. You're

17:54

being suppressed. You don't just, like,

17:57

lie down and take it. You

17:59

fight back. Yeah. And I think

18:01

a lot of people were like,

18:03

yeah, that makes sense. Right. But

18:05

like I said, a lot of

18:08

people were not happy with his

18:10

comments on that. that Mohammed being

18:12

one of them. He imposed a

18:14

90-day public speaking ban on Malcolm

18:17

X after that statement was made.

18:19

And then the media attention kind

18:21

of was buzzing around. And he

18:23

drew so much media attention with

18:26

that, that it was almost like

18:28

he was like a threat to

18:30

Elijah Mohammed's influence in the NOI,

18:32

because people were paying more attention

18:35

to what Malcolm X was saying

18:37

than what Elijah Mohammed was saying.

18:39

Partly maybe because it was so

18:41

inflammatory, also probably just again a

18:43

testament to his charisma. Definitely, yeah,

18:46

his star was rising and he

18:48

was his young, you know, handsome

18:50

man and like saying these headline

18:52

grabbing things, he was definitely like

18:55

surpassing Elijah Muhammad. Right, and yeah,

18:57

I think a lot of people

18:59

at the time were like, Elijah

19:01

who? Yeah, right. But Malcolm X,

19:04

they knew. Right. So this obviously

19:06

caused a lot of tension in

19:08

the organization. on that on March

19:10

8th 1964 Malcolm X announced that

19:13

he would be leaving the nation

19:15

of Islam and He expressed intention

19:17

to start his own organization Afterward

19:19

he founded the Muslim mosque ink

19:22

which focused on traditional Islam and

19:24

then he also started the organization

19:26

for Afro-American unity Which emphasized pan-Africanism

19:28

and human rights so sort of

19:30

to it to organizations that that

19:33

each specialized in one aspect of

19:35

what he had already been talking

19:37

about beforehand. That April, he went

19:39

to Mecca, undertook a pilgrimage, and

19:42

he did that experience like basically

19:44

fundamentally altered him, and when he

19:46

came back, he was a little

19:48

bit more like we were saying,

19:51

embracing of that sort of inclusive

19:53

perspective, and through the lens of

19:55

the teachings of Islam was like,

19:57

I think we could come together

20:00

and there could be a unity

20:02

across racial lines and it was

20:04

a little bit more tempered in

20:06

its approach. to civil rights after

20:08

that. But that said, this new

20:11

message didn't really change anything about

20:13

his now strained relationship with the

20:15

nation of Islam. And that kind

20:17

of set the stage for a

20:20

really bad February 1965 for him.

20:22

On February 14th, 1965, 60 years

20:24

ago from the day we were

20:26

recording this. Because we are recording

20:29

this on the 14th. His home

20:31

in Queens was firebombed while he

20:33

and his family were inside. They

20:35

managed to escape unharmed, but obviously

20:38

they were very concerned for their

20:40

safety afterward. I think he had

20:42

like four daughters, a young kid

20:44

at the time too. Yeah, not

20:46

a great situation. No, horrible. I'm

20:55

Dr. Samuel Hume, and I'm here

20:57

to tell you about my new

20:59

podcast, Winds of Change. Winds of

21:01

Change is the story of how

21:03

the sun set on the British

21:05

Empire. This first season is on

21:07

British India, and in these weekly

21:09

episodes, we'll cover the whole history,

21:11

through to the final days of

21:13

the Raj in 1947. If you

21:15

love learning about the past and

21:17

discovering why the world is the

21:19

way it is, then listen to

21:21

winds of change. You can listen

21:23

to winds of change on Apple

21:25

podcasts, Spotify, and everywhere you find

21:27

great podcasts. Despite the concerns for

21:29

his safety, though, things, that incident

21:31

you think he'd be like, increased

21:34

security, all these things, but a

21:36

week later, on February 21st, 1965,

21:38

he was set to speak at

21:40

the Audubon Ballroom, and... as he

21:42

was preparing to speak, he was

21:44

shot multiple times by a sailance

21:46

from the crowd. There were like

21:48

400-ish people in attendance when somebody

21:50

in the crowd shouted, uh, the

21:52

n-word, get your hand out of

21:54

my pocket, chaos broke out, and

21:56

then a man rushed forward and

21:58

shot him. in the chest with

22:00

a sawed-off shotgun almost immediately after

22:02

two other people hopped on stage

22:04

with semi-automatic handguns and shot him

22:06

as well. He was pronounced dead

22:08

shortly after arriving at Columbia Presbyterian

22:10

Hospital. The autopsy revealed that he

22:12

had 21 gunshot wounds to various

22:14

parts of his body. Given that

22:16

there was a crowded theater, they

22:18

managed to apprehend... people involved pretty

22:20

much right away. The main assailant

22:22

here, or the main assassin, was

22:24

somebody named Talmad Hayer, also known

22:27

as Thomas Hagan, who was a

22:29

member of the nation of Islam,

22:31

who had previously attended Malcolm X's

22:33

sermons at Temple 7. They caught

22:35

him out of the scene and

22:37

he ended up confessing to his

22:39

role in the assassination. It took

22:41

a few days for them to

22:43

make other arrests, but when they

22:45

did, it was two other members

22:47

of the nation of Islam. one

22:49

man named Norman 3x Butler or

22:51

Muhammad Abdul Aziz and Thomas 15x

22:53

Johnson or Kaleel Islam. They were

22:55

also arrested for Malcolm X's assassination.

22:57

Then it just started this very

22:59

long legal proceeding and there were

23:01

subsequent affidavits in 1977 and 1978

23:03

during which Hayre asserted that both

23:05

Butler and Johnson were innocent. all

23:07

three men were convicted and sentenced

23:09

to life in prison and for

23:11

a long time that was where

23:13

the story ended. And then in

23:15

recent years things have changed a

23:17

little bit. In November 2021 after

23:20

decades of advocacy and new evidence,

23:22

Muhammad Abdul Aziz and Kale Islam

23:24

were exonerated for their alleged roles

23:26

in the assassination. And then in

23:28

2023, just two years ago now,

23:30

Malcolm X's family announced plans to

23:32

file a hundred million dollar... wrongful

23:34

death lawsuit against the CIA, the

23:36

FBI, the NYPD, and other agencies.

23:38

accusing them of concealing evidence and

23:40

involvement in the assassination. Which is

23:42

not unexpected. There were like with

23:44

it, I mean almost immediately there

23:46

was a mix of skepticism and

23:48

conspiracy theories. Like I said, despite

23:50

this like fire bombing incident just

23:52

a week earlier, a lot of

23:54

people noted that there was not

23:56

that much security at the ballroom

23:58

on the day of the assassination.

24:00

A man named Earl Grant, who

24:02

was like an associate of Malcolm

24:04

X's, he said that the officers

24:06

who were there that day seemed

24:08

to have a nonchalant attitude. Other

24:10

people pointed to the FBI's, it's

24:13

Cointle Pro program, which was designed

24:15

to infiltrate and disrupt civil rights

24:17

organizations. That sort of sparked that

24:19

initial, like, was the FBI involved

24:21

in this? There were allegations suggesting

24:23

that John Alley, the national... I'm

24:25

sorry, the nation of Islam's national

24:27

secretary was an FBI informant and

24:29

may have played a role in

24:31

escalating tensions leading up to the

24:33

assassination. So not direct involvement, but

24:35

perhaps like putting out the idea

24:37

that, hey, maybe somebody should kill

24:39

him. And then of course, his

24:41

departure from the nation of Islam

24:43

and his strained relationship with Elijah

24:45

Muhammad also made it, also led

24:47

some people to speculate that the

24:49

organization itself. had been involved in

24:51

orchestrating the assassination. So rather than

24:53

just one to three individual members

24:55

acting independently, was it perhaps the

24:57

nation of Islam as an organization

24:59

plotting this? That has been somewhat

25:01

evidentially supported by statements made by

25:04

Lewis Farakhan, who was the like

25:06

a prominent leader in the NLI.

25:08

He made some statements. They suggested

25:10

he might have had some knowledge

25:12

about the organization's role in the

25:14

killing. There's no confirmation on that,

25:16

so I'm not going to come

25:18

down one way or another on

25:20

it. But it is an interesting

25:22

thing of note. I think that...

25:24

the wrongful death lawsuit that was

25:26

filed is very interesting. Yeah, yeah,

25:28

what I've kind of heard is

25:30

like, I guess the theory is

25:32

that like the FBI, the police

25:34

maybe weren't involved in the actual

25:36

like assassination, but they knew it

25:38

was coming and they chose to

25:40

like let it happen. Yeah, exactly.

25:42

They were maybe too quick in

25:44

wrapping up their investigation where they

25:46

were like, oh, we got the

25:48

guy. We got him. Yeah, well,

25:50

don't worry about it. Nothing else.

25:52

Right just let it happen and

25:54

then don't let there be an

25:57

investigation basically because they want to

25:59

knock them gone and Yeah, very

26:01

similar to the candidate assassination where

26:03

it was like oh we got

26:05

Lee Harvey Oswald we got him

26:07

and people were like was it

26:09

really just the one guy? Yeah,

26:11

or even MLK's I mean there's

26:13

some questions about his assassin as

26:15

well, right whose name I can

26:17

never remember I want to say

26:19

James Earl Jones, I know that's

26:21

not his name, but it's something

26:23

like that. It's one of those

26:25

like three. Darth Vader? James Earl,

26:27

right. James Earl, right. Because he

26:29

said he didn't do it. He

26:31

said he was a patsy basically

26:33

like Oswald said and then even

26:35

King's kids were like, yeah, we

26:37

think there's more of the story

26:39

here. Sure, yeah. The interesting thing

26:41

with the Malcolm X assassination assassination.

26:43

did say, yeah, I did it.

26:45

So there was at least a

26:47

confession there. And also, like, again,

26:50

they caught him at the scene

26:52

of the crime with a gun

26:54

in his hand. So, like, obviously,

26:56

he was involved. Right, right. But

26:58

the question, I guess, is, like,

27:00

when you kill someone in a

27:02

crowded ballroom, there's going to be

27:04

witnesses. But who ordered this hit?

27:06

Like, was it the nation of

27:08

Islam? Was it Elijah Muhammad and

27:10

all these things? And then if

27:12

the other two guys are innocent

27:14

as he said and as, you

27:16

know, they've now been exonerated, the

27:18

reporting said that there were three

27:20

people who rushed the stage and

27:22

shot him. So if it's not

27:24

these two guys who have been

27:26

in prison for years at this

27:28

point. decades, then who was it?

27:30

Where are they? What happened to

27:32

them? Right. So a lot of

27:34

unanswered questions still. I think it's

27:36

really fascinating. And I'll try to

27:38

not make this a super strong

27:40

political point. But when Donald Trump

27:43

recently became president, again, he said

27:45

one of the first things he

27:47

was going to do was release

27:49

the JFK files and the MLK

27:51

files. Huh. I don't know. I

27:53

haven't followed up with that. I

27:55

don't know what the outcome of

27:57

that was. I haven't heard anything

27:59

about it yet. But I'd be

28:01

curious, like, well, if we're going

28:03

to release a bunch of files,

28:05

what about the Malcolm X ones?

28:07

Yeah, right. That'd be very curious

28:09

as well. That's true. Assuming there

28:11

are, I mean, there's presumably there's

28:13

files. I'm sure there are files.

28:15

I'm sure there are. Oh, I'm

28:17

sure there are files. Oh, I'm

28:19

positive they're files. Oh, I'm positive

28:21

they're files. Oh, I'm positive. Oh,

28:23

I'm positive they're files. Oh, I'm

28:25

positive. Oh, I'm positive. Oh, I'm

28:27

positive. Oh, I'm positive. Oh, I'm

28:29

positive. Oh, I'm positive. Oh, I'm

28:31

positive. Oh, I'm positive. Oh, I'm

28:33

positive. Oh, I'm positive. Oh, I'm

28:36

positive. Oh, I'm positive. Oh, I'm

28:38

positive. Oh, I'm positive. Oh, I'm

28:40

positive. Oh, I'm positive. Oh, I'm

28:42

positive. Oh, I'm positive. Oh, I

28:44

It's interesting to think about like

28:46

this assassination, MLK's, even JFK's, just

28:48

in this era, like people didn't

28:50

have cameras or like phones or

28:52

anything. And then I think about

28:54

that kid who killed the health

28:56

care CEO a couple of weeks

28:58

ago and it was like there

29:00

were cameras everywhere in New York

29:02

and they were able to find

29:04

out where he went, where he

29:06

was staying, all these things. And

29:08

like in this case like they

29:10

just, I mean maybe there were

29:12

some cameras that got, I don't

29:14

know, conveniently. But it wasn't like

29:16

ubiquitous, like it is now everyone

29:18

has a camera in their pocket,

29:20

their cameras. Yeah, and even then

29:22

it took them a minute to

29:24

find Luigi Mangioni. Despite all of

29:26

that. Right, yeah, yeah, but he

29:29

wasn't able to completely disappear. And

29:31

then what they did, he was

29:33

in a McDonald's wearing the same

29:35

clothing with the gun on him

29:37

still, so that's a little. That's

29:39

on him, you didn't plan that's

29:41

on him, I think, at that

29:43

point. Yeah, it is, it is

29:45

interesting. Yeah, so that's fascinating. There's

29:47

three like prominent assassination sort of

29:49

at each, like. juncture of the

29:51

decade. The Kennedy won the very

29:53

early part of the 60s. Malcolm

29:55

X right in the middle and

29:57

MOK at the very end of

29:59

the 1960s. And RFK was killed

30:01

in 68 as well in June.

30:03

So that was quite a year,

30:05

68. Those double assassinations and other

30:07

things. But yeah, 21 gunshots. 21

30:09

gunshot wounds rather that's right someone

30:11

really want to take him down

30:13

that's a lot yeah I find

30:15

the I find the the outburst

30:17

preceding the rush to the stage

30:19

very interesting as well it sounds

30:22

like a diversion or maybe someone

30:24

I don't know that's kind of

30:26

a difficult get your hand out

30:28

of my pocket right yeah it's

30:30

like was that was that said

30:32

just to cause chaos Was that

30:34

did someone have a sawed-off shotgun

30:36

in their pocket and then that

30:38

was grabbed from them? I don't

30:40

know. Yeah. There's that also raises

30:42

a lot of questions. But yeah,

30:44

there was a book I read

30:46

last year that that was really

30:48

a really great book about on

30:50

Malcolm X and just like his

30:52

like life and the assassination and

30:54

everything. It's called The Dead Are

30:56

Rising. It's by Les Paine. And

30:58

his daughter finished it. Her name

31:00

is Tamara Paine. Malcolm X, his

31:02

life, yeah the assassination and everything,

31:04

I really enjoyed it. Yeah, good

31:06

to know. I do think, I

31:08

didn't put too much of this

31:10

in the actual outline for this

31:12

episode, but I'll touch on it

31:15

a little bit now. The, other

31:17

than the conspiratorial sort of speculation

31:19

about who had killed him, I

31:21

do think the immediate reactions to

31:23

his death are also worth diving

31:25

into a little bit. Martin Luther

31:27

King Jr. wrote... to Betty Shabazz,

31:29

who was Malcolm X's wife, in

31:31

the wake. He said, while we

31:33

did not always see eye to

31:35

eye on methods to solve the...

31:37

race problem. I always had a

31:39

deep affection for Malcolm and felt

31:41

he had a great ability to

31:43

put his finger on the existence

31:45

and root of the problem. He

31:47

was an eloquent spokesman for his

31:49

point of view and no one

31:51

can honestly doubt that Malcolm had

31:53

a great concern for the problems

31:55

that we face as a race,

31:57

which is a very nice sentiment.

31:59

Elijah Muhammad, meanwhile, about five days

32:01

later, he was speaking at the

32:03

Savior's Day Convention, during which he

32:05

said Malcolm X got just what

32:08

he preached. then denied any involvement

32:10

in the murder saying we didn't

32:12

want to kill Malcolm and didn't

32:14

try to kill him. We know

32:16

such ignorant foolish teachings would bring

32:18

him to his own end, which

32:20

is an eerie echoing of the

32:22

sentiment that Malcolm X himself shared

32:24

about JFK. The New York Post,

32:26

sorry, the New York Times, let

32:28

me criticize the proper media institution

32:30

here, the New York Times wrote

32:32

that Malcolm X was an extraordinary

32:34

and twisted and twisted man. who

32:36

turned many true gifts to evil

32:38

purpose, concluding that his life was,

32:40

quote, strangely and pitifully wasted. Time

32:42

magazine called him an unashamed demagogue

32:44

whose creed was violence. So, uh,

32:46

some harsh words from some pretty

32:48

big media publications. Yeah, I guess,

32:50

I mean, I feel like people

32:52

who supported Malcolm during his life

32:54

or people who watched... you know,

32:56

the peace marches and stuff, and

32:58

then watch these peace protesters getting

33:01

like beaten by the police. And

33:03

when Malcolm was not effective. Yeah,

33:05

Malcolm was like, if someone beats

33:07

me up, I'm gonna fight back.

33:09

What's wrong with that? And they

33:11

were like, yeah, what is wrong

33:13

with that? I don't want to,

33:15

why wouldn't I resist that? And

33:17

I think those were those, those,

33:19

um. reactions to his death are

33:21

like pretty upsetting actually. It is

33:23

upsetting. I think the sentiment regarding

33:25

Malcolm X has changed a lot

33:27

since his time on earth. Oh

33:29

yeah, I think that's true. I

33:31

think over the past 60 years

33:33

people have kind of... examined a

33:35

lot of what he was saying,

33:37

especially given the amount of police

33:39

violence against black people today. I

33:41

think it was like, hmm. Maybe

33:43

he had a point. Yeah, I

33:45

think peaceful protest has not solved

33:47

the issue. It's an easy and

33:49

like nice story to be like,

33:51

oh, like MLK came and through

33:54

peace, he like solved civil rights.

33:56

And I feel like that's kind

33:58

of the story that I was

34:00

told. It's a nice one to

34:02

teach kids for sure. Yeah, as

34:04

a kid learning about it. Be

34:06

like, and if you're not happy

34:08

with the way the world is,

34:10

you can just get together and

34:12

with your friends and... and yell

34:14

about how bad it is and

34:16

then things will change and it's

34:18

like it's not quite so simple

34:20

right yeah it's not and I

34:22

think Malcolm X is a really

34:24

important like part of that story

34:26

yeah but at the same time

34:28

like he was pretty radical about

34:30

it and I don't mean that

34:32

in like I'm not even trying

34:34

to use radical as like a

34:36

derogatory term because that gets thrown

34:38

around a lot now or it's

34:40

like they're so radical no I

34:42

mean he was radical he was

34:44

advocating openly for violence against people

34:47

celebrating the deaths of white people,

34:49

not just JFK. I think I

34:51

mentioned it in the intro. There

34:53

was a plane crash in France

34:55

and he said when that plane

34:57

crashed in France with 130 white

34:59

people on it and we learned

35:01

that 120 of them were from

35:03

the state of Georgia, the state

35:05

where my own grandfather was a

35:07

slave in, well to me it

35:09

couldn't have been anything but an

35:11

act of God, a blessing. from

35:13

God. Now I'm not going to

35:15

say that like that's like a

35:17

good thing to say because I

35:19

you know you don't want to

35:21

celebrate someone's death but when he

35:23

brings in his father being a

35:25

slave in Georgia that statement makes

35:27

sense to me it's like okay

35:29

like this was a sin of

35:31

this like state in his words

35:33

kind of and like yeah you

35:35

reap what you say I think

35:37

that was a lot of his

35:40

messaging was like well white people

35:42

have been doing bad stuff to

35:44

black people for hundreds of years.

35:46

or you know, so maybe it's

35:48

divine retribution, maybe you're getting what

35:50

coming to them. That said, not

35:52

every person in Georgia is a

35:54

bad person who deserves to die

35:56

in a plane crash. And so,

35:58

and I think invoking religion in

36:00

that aspect as well, rubbed a

36:02

lot of people the wrong way,

36:04

understandably, having to call anyone's death

36:06

other than like Hitler, to call

36:08

anyone's death like an act of

36:10

God. or a blessing is a

36:12

little bit like that's a radical

36:14

that's a radical thing to say

36:16

and I'm not I'm not again

36:18

I don't want to be the

36:20

white guy saying the Malcolm X

36:22

was wrong I'm just saying like

36:24

I can understand why that would

36:26

upset people it certainly made him

36:28

a very polarizing figure during his

36:30

life and afterwards yeah yeah and

36:33

so like when it comes to

36:35

like why do we not learn

36:37

about him as much it's like

36:39

well how do you teach How

36:41

old are you when you learn

36:43

about Martin Luther King Jr. for

36:45

the first time? You're in elementary

36:47

school for sure. Yeah, elementary school

36:49

was when I first, like, like,

36:51

yeah. So, you know, it's easy

36:53

to look and be like, oh,

36:55

there was this man, and he

36:57

said, we should all get along.

36:59

And then we did. And then

37:01

we did. And then we did.

37:03

And then you're a kid, and

37:05

you're like, that's great. That's amazing.

37:07

Yeah. Well, that seems messed up

37:09

and you're like, no, but he

37:11

did some good things. But then

37:13

you're like, well, kids, history is

37:15

complicated and it's not black and

37:17

white and there's a lot of

37:19

nuance there and this is, we

37:21

should explore it more. Let's be

37:23

curious about it. Yeah, I think

37:26

that maybe that's a lesson we

37:28

should explore it more. Let's be

37:30

curious about it. Yeah, I think

37:32

that maybe that's a lesson we

37:34

save a lesson we save more.

37:36

But yeah, maybe that's a lesson.

37:38

a college black history course, which

37:40

is what it often feels like

37:42

it is, like it's neglected. Yeah,

37:44

it is. I mean, I studied

37:46

American history in college and I

37:48

learned about Malcolm X, like on.

37:50

my own after graduating college. Right,

37:52

right. Which is sad. It is

37:54

sad. That is very sad. But

37:56

it is certainly a much more

37:58

nuanced adult conversation to have. And

38:00

even like, even us discussing it

38:02

right now, I'm like, I gotta

38:04

pick what I say, careful. Sure.

38:06

I mean, people people might come

38:08

after us, I don't know, for

38:10

being like too woke or not

38:12

woken up for, I don't know,

38:14

but. That's right. That's the other

38:16

issue. It's like, which, which is

38:19

it. Yeah. It's not something I

38:21

want to have to worry about.

38:23

Like, I think, acknowledged the nuance,

38:25

but like, yeah, he was a

38:27

controversial figure. Yeah, read a book

38:29

about him. But an important one.

38:31

An important one as well. He

38:33

was. He's a part of the

38:35

story, so. Yeah. I think it's

38:37

not surprising, given historical context, and

38:39

given that Martin Luther King Jr.

38:41

was also assassinated. I don't think

38:43

it's surprising that Malcolm X was...

38:45

killed for the things he said

38:47

and did, given the political environment

38:49

of the time. I mean, it's

38:51

really interesting to compare their assassinations,

38:53

because like, if James Earl Ray

38:55

did kill, I'm okay. It was

38:57

because he was just a racist

38:59

guy. Right. I mean, unless he,

39:01

there was a conspiracy, which like,

39:03

honestly, like, maybe there was, I

39:05

don't know. And in Malcolm's case.

39:07

You would think, you would think,

39:09

because you and I are kind

39:12

of on the same page here,

39:14

I think. you would think it's

39:16

the same situation just someone racist

39:18

didn't like that a black man

39:20

was saying these things and killed

39:22

him but it's not and it's

39:24

not that and i find that

39:26

really interesting it's like oh actually

39:28

he wasn't killed because a racist

39:30

person didn't like what he said

39:32

it was other people in the

39:34

same organization that he used to

39:36

be a part of so it's

39:38

almost more of like a petty

39:40

squabble right about like power and

39:42

influence in this one organization than

39:44

it was about the radical things

39:46

that he was saying that he

39:48

was saying that he was saying

39:50

that he was saying that he

39:52

was saying that's I think, but

39:54

you could argue that he was

39:56

allowed to be assassinated possibly because,

39:58

you know, white powers that be,

40:00

the CIA or whatever, was like,

40:02

well, we don't really need him

40:05

around. Let's step aside. I'm just

40:07

speaking to what we can actually

40:09

confirm without any speculative

40:11

additions to that. It's like he was

40:14

killed by people from the nation

40:16

of Islam or one person confirmed

40:18

from it. And that to me

40:20

is very curious. Yeah, I mean,

40:22

a lot of, I was thinking

40:24

about the other assassinations in that decade,

40:26

like JFK, like why was JFK

40:28

killed? You can make some guesses based

40:31

on his like weird life and

40:33

living in like Russia and working with

40:35

like Cubans and the mafia maybe

40:37

but I don't know it's a lot

40:39

there we whole podcast about that one.

40:41

And RFK was killed by someone

40:43

who you know was very disturbed

40:46

but had also I believe was

40:48

Palestinian and like what that was

40:50

his part of his motivation was

40:52

was that so I don't know a

40:54

lot of reasons. But I think

40:57

it was interesting to compare these

40:59

two assassinations in that particular. Right.

41:01

Because like I said, before I

41:03

started doing research for this episode,

41:06

I didn't know too much about the

41:08

situation. Because I've mentioned it

41:10

before, my degree is in screenwriting.

41:12

So I'm not like a studied

41:15

historian by Education there. Have you

41:17

seen the Malcolm X movie with a

41:19

Denzel Washington? I have not. I

41:22

don't watch a lot of historical

41:24

biopics. to be fair. It's like

41:26

I didn't see Lincoln either. Oh,

41:28

I saw Lincoln, but I don't really

41:30

like it that much. Yeah, I'm

41:32

just saying, it's not, I didn't

41:34

see it because it's just not

41:36

a cut that kind, I just

41:38

don't watch that kind of

41:41

movie. Sure, I just wasn't

41:43

anything specific about Malcolm X. Come

41:45

up in your classes, maybe, because it

41:47

was like a big deal, like the

41:50

90s when it came out, it's maybe.

41:52

Maybe I will, maybe I'll put it

41:54

on the list. I haven't seen it either. I

41:56

just know that that was like... Okay. That kind

41:58

of tells his story and... Yeah. But yeah,

42:00

just to be transparent about my

42:02

lack of knowledge going into this

42:04

episode, I didn't know who killed

42:06

him or why. And so I

42:08

assumed, oh, it was probably some

42:11

like racist guy, like with Martin

42:13

Luther King Jr. and that I

42:15

was very surprised to find that

42:17

it was like kind of more

42:19

of like a personal dispute situation.

42:21

Right, more to the story there

42:23

for sure. Yeah, like of all

42:25

the things he could have been

42:27

killed for. It's weird that this

42:29

was what it ended up being.

42:31

There's no larger point to be

42:33

said about that. It's just an

42:35

observation. I know it's interesting. I

42:37

think the story is interesting and

42:39

sort of like untold in many

42:42

ways and yeah. Yeah. I think

42:44

it's, I think the other interesting

42:46

thing is how much of it's

42:48

sort of still happening, like how

42:50

much of this story is still

42:52

happening between the exonerations and then

42:54

the lawsuit. So you know, this

42:56

is one of those episodes where

42:58

like we're like we're recording, we're

43:00

recording it now a year from

43:02

now. there might be something completely

43:04

new to be said about this.

43:06

Right, sure. Yeah, I mean, you

43:08

could say the same for J-O-K

43:10

or M-O-K, like, who knows? Yeah,

43:13

so, crazy that history is always

43:15

happening. It's always happening. History is

43:17

alive. Yeah, I'm, apologies to anyone.

43:19

If I offended anybody with this

43:21

episode, I tried my best. No,

43:23

I think it's good. It's the

43:25

kind of story that, like, like,

43:27

people should, like, like, literally recording

43:29

this on the 60th anniversary of

43:31

when this happened. When the episode

43:33

comes out. It's a couple days

43:35

before his. I think it's about

43:37

the 19th. The 19th when it's

43:39

out. So two days before the

43:41

assassination or the anniversary of the

43:43

assassination. I hate that we use

43:46

the word anniversary for everything, good

43:48

or bad. Because it inherently always

43:50

feels like a good thing because

43:52

it's like my parents anniversary. It's

43:54

like, that's nice. the anniversary of

43:56

an assassination it's like there's got

43:58

to be something else yeah it's

44:00

a good point it is the

44:02

right word but we got we

44:04

should make a new one. Yeah,

44:06

agreed, a negative, one of the

44:08

negative connotation. Yeah. Yeah. Well, um.

44:10

You know, hopefully this episode was

44:12

enlightening. Yeah, our next episode is

44:14

also kind of going to deal

44:17

with some dark parts of American

44:19

history concerning black Americans because we're

44:21

talking about Thomas Jefferson and his

44:23

relationship with slavery. Yeah. Yep. And

44:25

there's a lot there. Because he

44:27

wrote a lot and did a

44:29

lot and there's a lot to

44:31

discuss. Right, when you and I

44:33

were discussing it the other day,

44:35

you were like, man, he had

44:37

some complicated views on slavery, and

44:39

I don't know how to go

44:41

about that. I was like, yeah,

44:43

it's kind of hard to have

44:45

a nuanced take on slavery. I

44:48

said it's a hard thing to

44:50

fit into like a script because

44:52

there's so much there. I mean,

44:54

I couldn't fit everything, but there's

44:56

a lot there. Right. He certainly

44:58

did not practice what he preached.

45:00

Not really, no. And he had

45:02

he had preached a lot of

45:04

like kind of more liberal radical

45:06

for his time stuff. The things

45:08

he said great. Yeah. Things he

45:10

did. Not so great. Not so

45:12

great. That's so great. So we'll

45:14

dig into that in a two

45:16

weeks as well. Yeah. So yeah,

45:19

stay tuned for that one. Definitely.

45:21

It's going to be interesting. It's

45:23

going to be interesting. It's always

45:25

interesting. It's always interesting. And if

45:27

you want more stuff that's always

45:29

interesting, how to know over to

45:31

all that's interesting.com, where we are

45:33

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45:35

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45:37

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45:39

know, archaeological discoveries, things like that,

45:41

which we of course talk about

45:43

on our monthly bonus show, the

45:45

after, but what do we call

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a history happy hour, whoa. I

45:50

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45:52

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45:54

not our podcast. The history happy

45:56

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45:58

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46:00

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46:52

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46:54

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46:56

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46:58

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47:00

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47:02

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47:10

Yeah, would love to hear thoughts

47:12

about this one. Yeah, I would

47:14

be curious too. Possibly. Would love

47:16

to hear thoughts about this one,

47:18

depending on your thoughts. No, I

47:20

mean, I only quickly glossed over

47:23

Malcolm X's history. So if anyone

47:25

has any like any like interesting

47:27

tidbits or facts or anything like

47:29

that. Yeah, I would love to

47:31

hear it. Or, you know, if

47:33

I misspoke and said something out

47:35

of line, I'm always trying to

47:37

be a better person. So, let

47:39

me know. Cool, and we'll be

47:41

back in a few weeks with,

47:43

yeah, Thomas Jefferson, Slavery, and History

47:45

Happy Hour as well. Yeah, stay

47:47

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