0:04

everyone's uh . Fred kusick

0:06

used to say uh , I

0:09

don't know , fred , but uh , I've

0:12

been hitting ahead a lot of times by a hockey puck

0:14

, so I'm not quite sure about that play

0:16

that is spanky

0:18

lavalier to start .

0:19

Hold my cutter , mike spank

0:22

lavalier , the former buckle catcher who lives here in graydon . A special

0:24

edition of hold my cutter , mike spank levier , the former buckle catcher who lives here

0:26

in graydon . Special edition of hold my cutter . Spanky

0:29

, said you know I I think there are thousands

0:31

and thousands of people that are tuned in now to

0:33

hold my cutter . I'd like to jump on board here . And

0:36

he decided he's the first guest

0:38

, by the way , who's provided us with stogie

0:40

? He's a legend , an absolute

0:42

legend .

0:43

This is my go-to everyday

0:45

cigar Oliva

0:47

yes , Okay , the Oliva , I'm sorry

0:50

. Siri

0:52

G , which is , like I

0:54

said , a very fine cigar

0:56

. My favorite is Monte

0:59

Cristo no 2 . Oh yeah , the Monte Cristo .

1:00

No 2 .

1:03

I don't break any laws . So

1:05

for this we've I don't break any laws

1:08

. So for this we've got the legal stokes .

1:10

The Oliva from .

1:11

Spanky LaValle .

1:13

Yeah , let me .

1:17

I want you to cough so fucking bad , excuse

1:19

me .

1:21

It's the first F-bomb Spanky will drop . And

1:26

the last one Very special edition of Hold my , we started , yeah , we started . You started out with

1:28

your uh , I mean you just quoting the movie , whatever

1:31

, yeah , what is it olivio ? I

1:33

called it olivia , oliva , oliva good

1:35

catcher spanky

1:40

, how long have you lived in bradent I

1:42

?

1:42

moved here from St

1:46

Pete , moved from

1:48

New Hampshire , st Pete , 1985

1:50

. And when I got traded to the

1:52

Pirates in 87 , my

1:55

in-laws were snowboarding from New

1:57

Hampshire to Bradenton and figured

1:59

well , you know what , let's just move to Bradenton

2:01

. So I've been here since 1988

2:03

.

2:03

That's unbelievable 1988 . And

2:06

you hear people who have lived in one

2:08

place for a long time . You hear it up in Pittsburgh

2:10

, the Cranberry area , how much it's changed

2:13

. You know there are just cow pastures . I

2:15

mean it has changed this area .

2:17

Well , especially out east . The

2:20

Lakewood Ranch was

2:22

basically just milk cow

2:24

farms and now

2:26

it's a thriving community

2:29

, great golf courses

2:31

, great restaurants . A little

2:33

too far out from my liking , but

2:36

yeah , everything east of the interstate

2:38

was basically

2:40

palmetto , bushes and cows

2:43

, and now it's some absolutely fabulous neighborhoods

2:45

. Spanky , we call those heifto bushes and cows . Now it's some absolutely fabulous neighborhoods .

2:47

We call those heifers , not cows . Tennessee

2:50

just saying .

2:51

Don't you eat heifers , you

2:54

milk cows . Good point .

2:57

We call those slugbusters .

3:00

I majored in cow biology

3:02

in college , did you ? No , absolutely not . I majored in cow biology in college

3:04

, did you no , absolutely not .

3:07

I majored in baseball . So

3:11

two catchers walk into a bar and

3:14

this is what you get

3:16

. This is what you're going to get all day baby . You get

3:18

McHenry and LaValle .

3:19

You know I couldn't help it . I had to take it off the .

3:20

I might do the same thing at some point . Yeah , I

3:23

kind of feel cool with it .

3:23

I can to take it off the . I might do the same thing at some point . Yeah , I kind of feel cool with it

3:25

. I can't , because it's got this beautiful catching glove . This

3:28

is what the athletes use .

3:30

Oh , that's , it's this kind of glove . Yeah , hey , greg , these

3:32

are athletes . These

3:35

are athletes . Greg , you understand , I don't want to move

3:37

, you understand .

3:42

The athletes . You's what they want , right

3:44

, you put the cigar in it . It's a beautiful display

3:47

. That's all Michael LaVallee

3:49

right there .

3:50

Yeah , it's a concept that a lot of catchers

3:52

don't get is get

3:54

the ball inside the glove . It usually

3:57

helps .

3:57

That helps a lot . It helps a lot . Yeah , Catching

4:00

the ball is important .

4:02

And it's funny because nowadays a

4:05

lot of these guys use small gloves , 33-inch

4:07

gloves . This is a 35-inch glove

4:09

. That's what I used and I had no

4:11

issues getting the ball out and

4:14

I just figured you know , maybe I'm not as

4:16

good as the other kids , I need a bigger

4:18

glove . So that's what I used

4:21

and I never even thought

4:23

about going to a smaller glove .

4:25

You know they didn't make a glove above

4:27

33 and a half . For a long time it was

4:29

an all-star guard for a long time . They

4:31

discontinued that 35 . They brought it back

4:33

because all the receiving numbers and everything else

4:35

. That's a game changer .

4:37

Oh yeah , you know , and it's one

4:39

thing you

4:44

know if you have to be perfect all the time and it's tough

4:46

, because you know as a catcher it's a long season

4:48

you got bumps , you got bruises , you

4:51

know you take a beating mentally

4:53

and physically . You got to babysit those

4:56

knuckleheads on the mounds . So

4:58

the last thing you want to do is have issues

5:00

with your glove , no doubt . And if you've got something

5:02

that you're comfortable with , you

5:05

know you can handle just one less

5:07

thing to check off , you don't have

5:09

to worry about no question , no question by

5:11

the way , if you're watching hold my cutter right now on youtube

5:13

, you're where the heck are these guys ?

5:14

we're actually doing a special edition of hold my cutter

5:17

in bradenton , florida , right outside the

5:19

uh , what's this called ? Is this called the

5:22

mckechnie clubhouse at lecom park

5:24

?

5:24

I believe it's I think it's a greg brown clubhouse

5:27

no , I don't think so .

5:28

Not yet , not , not yet , not yet . No , not not

5:30

yet . It should be . Yeah , it's just a matter

5:32

of time yeah , just a matter of time . So

5:34

anyway , we're here inside this

5:37

tent area .

5:37

We're renaming things yes , we are nowadays

5:40

, in this , in this country , 100 everything's

5:42

been renamed gulf of america , just along

5:44

the America .

5:45

We're just along the Golf of America , right

5:47

back a few miles from

5:49

us .

5:49

I wonder if they're going to change . It's so true , they've

5:51

got to change the street now . Golf of

5:53

Mexico Drive .

5:55

It's got to be Golf of America . Drive , that's right 100%

5:57

.

5:58

You've got to be in uniform . You've got to stay current

6:00

.

6:00

You got to stay current , stay current . How

6:03

much do you pay attention to the

6:05

current state of baseball

6:08

, the Pirates and , specifically

6:10

, catchers ? Do you ever watch games and concentrate

6:13

? Because I know he does . He just took a giant leap for us . I

6:16

know this big sigh , I

6:19

don't want to hear how great baseball was back when you

6:21

played . I am trying my

6:24

best to say

6:27

this in a way that doesn't

6:30

sound like I'm an old disgruntled

6:33

guy .

6:34

I think there's a balance to it . You know what

6:36

Nowadays ? I don't understand

6:38

the catching that's going on right

6:41

now . I used to help with

6:43

some college kids around and they started catching on on me . I used to help with some college kids around and

6:45

they started catching on in me and

6:48

I couldn't teach them because

6:50

I don't believe in it . But

6:53

again , that's part of the old-fashioned part . I

6:57

just don't see it , especially

6:59

at the younger levels , being able

7:01

to do that . The big leagues guys are a little

7:04

more pinpoint , I get it

7:06

Okay . But at the lower levels , able to do that , the big leagues guys are a little more pinpoint

7:08

, I get it okay . But at the lower levels college , high school , little

7:10

league if you're on a knee you're

7:12

not doing any service . Well , how do you ever

7:14

build up strength ? Well , you know , there's

7:16

a lot of endurance , there's a lot of things . Um

7:19

, you know , and I tell all my kids , uh

7:21

, that whenever I was uh coaching

7:24

, catching around here , be

7:26

a kid swim , ride

7:28

your bike . You know you're not going

7:30

to get any stronger with that nintendo

7:32

. You might have some badass thumps

7:35

but you know what ?

7:36

that ain't gonna help you .

7:37

But yeah , just you know what

7:39

be um . Be an athlete

7:41

, play all the sports , yeah

7:44

, sports . You develop different muscle groups

7:46

. To me as a catcher , you

7:48

need all of that all of

7:50

it .

7:51

Okay , I want to hear

7:53

a debate . Yeah , you take the

7:55

side of . You know what I like one-knee

7:58

catchers and Spanky can retort

8:01

what's the great

8:03

benefit of of catching these days

8:05

, and most of them do , I don't . Is there anybody that's not doing it ?

8:07

now . No , um , there's not . There's guys that

8:09

transition into a normal

8:12

stance , but no , nobody's really doing

8:14

it any other way . Now and to spanky's

8:17

point , I think it's a

8:19

disservice because you watch these guys at the major level

8:21

and they were more pinpoint . They're getting paid

8:23

to receive the ball better , they're able to

8:25

manipulate , because if me and you I

8:28

I've been fortunate enough recently to catch

8:30

bullpens and do this off a knee we would

8:32

have been different . I mean , you're

8:34

gold glover , I really believe I could

8:36

have been that much better because

8:38

it kept me , it keeps me close to the ground , but I wouldn't

8:40

stay there . And that's one thing I tell everybody

8:43

is Stone Brown . Just today we're

8:45

watching somebody catch , not going to mention any names , they're tipping

8:47

the pitches . That's the biggest thing for me

8:49

is I can see , because they're

8:51

vulnerable one way or the other and they have

8:53

the wrong knee down and they can't move to the left , they can't

8:55

move to the right , so they'll give away a pitch

8:57

. And especially at the college level

9:00

, I do a lot of college stuff and I see these guys and

9:02

they set up early and it's like all right , here comes a fastball

9:04

up , here comes a breaking ball down . You

9:09

can see the anxiety immediately , because most of these guys don't have the rhythm

9:11

and timing . Because that's what , more than anything , folks , knee down

9:13

or not , you can catch the knee down . I'm sure

9:16

there's some pictures out to you as you're catching

9:18

the ball , your knee's falling down . That's being athletic

9:20

. What these guys aren't understanding , they're getting

9:23

stuck in unathletic positions and

9:25

that's where , at the major league level , you can get away

9:27

with it , because they miss in like a three

9:29

to five foot area . Even

9:31

in college these guys are throwing 100 . Now They'll

9:34

miss seven feet and

9:36

you cannot get to that ball . So I

9:38

could sit here and debate them . The analytics

9:40

will show that these guys are blocking better . But

9:45

you look at the size of the guys like even on our team Outside of Henry Davis , everybody is 6'1

9:47

or taller . It is a different animal

9:49

. It helps them stay grounded and

9:51

they can cover more space .

9:52

That's the point . Okay , so you were not that

9:55

tall . Was that one of the reasons

9:57

why it wouldn't have made sense for you anyway

9:59

? Right , I always believed that

10:01

was an advantage of anything

10:03

.

10:03

Yeah , you know , being five foot eight is

10:05

I fold up better than that guy . That's

10:07

six foot four yeah , he funnels

10:09

the ball in differently . Yeah , exactly

10:12

, and you know one of the things you

10:15

know . The argument is you know you're going

10:17

to get pitches . Well , I can tell

10:19

you this if they ever go

10:21

to that automated umpire , guess

10:24

what ?

10:27

You don't have to make anything look good . It's one of the reasons they won't do

10:29

it . They will not go to the ABS system . They're

10:31

going to go to the challenge system in spring training this

10:33

year and then no doubt it will

10:35

be in baseball , major league baseball , during the regular season

10:37

next year . But it will be just the challenge because they

10:39

don't want to impact these

10:41

catchers . The framing how big Spanky

10:44

when you played . I can't

10:46

recall the framing stuff being

10:48

so important .

10:49

Well , I can tell you this

10:51

the relationships between

10:54

catchers and umpires was

10:57

a huge factor . So that really was more important than anything , Because

10:59

now if you were pulling pitches

11:01

like the guys do now to

11:03

make pitches look better , you

11:05

would hit all 160

11:08

at the plate

11:10

once you get up there yeah because the umpires

11:12

would tell you you do that again

11:14

. Okay , every pitch is going

11:16

to be a ball that you do that and

11:18

when you get up to the plate , it's . It's not

11:20

going to be 17 inches , it's going , going

11:22

to be more like 27 inches oh yeah

11:24

.

11:25

They're not wild , they won't try about it . I got that as a rookie

11:27

, did you really ?

11:28

Yeah .

11:28

My first start . I got four Ks . I

11:31

struck out on the first three strikeouts . I couldn't have

11:33

hit the ball with a boat paddle . There's

11:35

no shot . He's exactly right . In your

11:37

day you talk about the guys in

11:40

Atlanta and stuff like that .

11:41

You couldn't hit those guys in a

11:43

32 inch play Okay , so so the

11:45

relationship with the catcher and the umpire was almost

11:47

more important than all the framing stuff .

11:49

Um , much more . So . I mean and

11:52

it was , it was . I mean I'd

11:54

like to every pitch to make

11:56

it look good . That was close , but

11:58

what I'm seeing now is some pitches that aren't

12:01

that close .

12:02

They're trying to make it look good and it looks silly

12:04

.

12:04

I mean to me it looks very silly to

12:06

try to manipulate a pitch that's

12:08

six inches off to make it look like

12:10

a strike . Did it back in my day ? I

12:13

mean , you might even have an umpire come

12:15

around in front of home plate , dust

12:18

it off and give you the dickens You're

12:20

like . I don't know if anybody knows what the dickens are , oh yeah

12:22

you're like I don't know if anybody knows what the dick is .

12:24

Well , you get your ass chewed out . That's

12:26

like a little boy yeah .

12:28

So it was like , okay , I will

12:30

not do that and

12:32

that was a big part of catching back in

12:34

the day . It was , you know what keep

12:36

the ball in front of you at all costs , okay

12:40

, and if you can make it look good , you do , but

12:42

you've got to catch the ball and keep

12:44

it in front of you . That was a big thing back then . Who's ?

12:45

And if you can make it look good , you do , but you've got to catch the ball and keep it in front of you

12:47

. That was a big thing back then . Who's your favorite

12:50

? Ump and your least favorite ump Because you can say this now Statue of limitations

12:52

. Now you can go ahead and spill the beans and he used to look . That

13:02

used to be the first thing he looked at . Who's umpire today ? Everybody used

13:04

to do that plate umpire was Well , yeah , normally

13:07

, you know , if you had you know

13:09

.

13:09

First game of the series .

13:10

Yeah , yeah , yeah , all right , who do we

13:12

have ? Yeah , what's the crew ?

13:13

And then I always liked catching

13:16

for a pitcher's umpire . Yeah , because

13:18

for me , those you know 36 , 40 at-bats where you know

13:20

36 , 40 at bats where

13:23

you know I liked it Calling

13:25

strikes versus at the plate

13:27

. You know maybe four at bats where

13:30

I had to have a big zone and I

13:32

had a big bat . I had a 35-inch

13:34

bat .

13:35

You also swung a big bat too .

13:40

Yeah , okay , hold my cutter that almost went over his head

13:43

by the way , which is rare .

13:47

He's not used to hearing that value you're using doesn't take it very well . That's

13:50

not a big thing going over my head . I'm short

13:52

, but knowing

13:57

that I always preferred a

13:59

pitcher's umpire . It was much more

14:01

difficult and I always maintained no

14:03

matter what league

14:06

you're in , if you call more strikes

14:08

than balls , you'll have less trouble with

14:11

players and umpires and fans

14:13

, that's well said . Yeah

14:15

, because you know what , when you call

14:17

strikes , the game moves . Kids

14:20

swing the bats , more Everything

14:22

about it is good .

14:23

That's why I hate the automated system , because it's going to be a lot more balls

14:25

yeah , the bats more . Everything about it is good . That's why I hate the automated system , because it's going to be a lot more balls .

14:27

Yeah , the automated system . I don't know

14:29

how they can do it , because

14:31

I mean , everything is flawed

14:34

.

14:34

They won't . It's not going to be full-time automated . It's going

14:36

to be a challenge system , but it's going to be interesting .

14:37

Did you hear the story about Jason DeLay ? No

14:40

, you'll love this . Six times in a row Challenge

14:43

, one in a game . So he

14:45

did six in a game and one each challenge

14:47

. One , each challenge Six times . Each

14:49

call was our turn . The umpire goes will you please not do that again Because

14:52

you got to think . I mean , you think about that sphincter

14:54

Spanky . It may

14:56

be like this and it's like uh-oh , uh-oh

15:05

, been at one point . But like , going back to his point and I think the umpires and the

15:07

relationship , I think the automated system , when it came about for them

15:09

to get judged , you know , so they started getting graded . That

15:11

was when I was in and that's when it changed

15:13

, and it changed everything . I went from a top 10

15:16

receiver to the bottom 10 in

15:18

a heartbeat , so you really had no choice

15:20

to change .

15:20

Yeah , the uh the back of the day , you

15:23

know the umpires weren't , you

15:26

know , graded like they are now . Yeah , and

15:28

you kind of could police the game

15:31

. Yeah , you know the way you needed to . If

15:33

one of the hitters was a little mouthy

15:35

, you get a little tap . Move

15:37

a little further outside would you play into ? that , oh

15:40

, absolutely . Oh , my gosh . I

15:42

mean Runge . He was a very

15:44

, very good umpire . You knew if someone

15:47

was on his bad side . He'd

15:49

tell you beforehand , really

15:59

, and Donnie was a veteran guy so he

16:01

knew what was going on . So

16:03

I line up about three

16:06

inches outside and

16:08

Paul goes further .

16:10

No , way Further .

16:12

By the time he punches the guy out , I'm

16:14

a foot outside .

16:16

Oh my gosh .

16:17

The next time up the hitter goes . Paul

16:19

, I get it . I'm sorry it

16:21

won't happen again .

16:21

That's the way it should be right there , I'm sorry , and

16:24

now you go back to normal . Yeah .

16:26

Wow , but that's you know . That's . You

16:28

know part of the game and you know umpires

16:31

back then were graded on how

16:33

they kept the game going .

16:36

You know the flow of the game .

16:37

I didn't know that .

16:38

How they did stuff like that and their

16:40

relationships , their relationships . They didn't

16:42

have a clock , they had an umpire speeding

16:44

up the game . You know there's a

16:46

lot to be said and I

16:48

have trouble with the

16:50

clock , especially in tight

16:52

situations . You know where you

16:55

get a younger kid out on the mound

16:57

or a younger catcher . The

16:59

game's still too fast .

17:00

It's speeding up and then they throw a pitch they don't want to throw

17:02

.

17:02

Now you make a mistake , yep , you know . So that

17:04

part I don't like . There's a few abusers

17:07

like there is in every sport .

17:09

Yeah .

17:09

You know golf . They put them on the clock , et

17:11

cetera . You know what you know . Take

17:13

care of the abusers .

17:17

Let everybody else play yeah .

17:19

Hey .

17:20

Well , I love the clock . I think it's the greatest

17:23

invention since the Emancipation Proclamation

17:25

and they're learning , but to his point .

17:27

There was a couple times even Jones brought it up . The

17:29

clock sped him up last year and he threw a pitch

17:31

he didn't want to throw .

17:32

And I thought he was hurt .

17:34

I genuinely thought he was hurt because he throws a ball of his own

17:36

. He ends up walking the guy . We lost one of those games

17:38

. So be it , but it sucks

17:40

when it happens to your team ?

17:41

Sure , of course it does

17:43

. Were you truly you know

17:46

when the Pirates got you from the Cardinals

17:48

on ? I

17:50

guess it was April 1st 1986

17:53

? 87 . 87 . 87 .

17:55

I was watching you , then I was in my crib .

17:57

It was . I figured that .

17:59

Spanky yeah .

18:00

Shit in your pants , like you do now .

18:01

Yeah , exactly . Well , some things don't need to change

18:03

.

18:04

Yeah , Of course

18:06

the Pirates got Van Slyke and Mike Dunn

18:08

, the pitcher , and the Tony Pena deal and got

18:10

Lavallee , as you mentioned First , four years of Pirate

18:12

, you win the Gold Glove . How

18:15

much hockey you played growing up in Massachusetts

18:17

. Did it help you ? You talked about a moment

18:19

ago about playing all the sports so

18:25

it makes you more athletic . So in a way that did , but specifically as a catcher , did that

18:27

help you at all ?

18:28

I think , if anything , strong legs

18:30

Okay , you know , I wasn't a goalie

18:33

, those guys are nuts . I mean

18:35

catching and goalie , two different things

18:37

.

18:37

You don't want to try ?

18:38

as a goalie the guy in front of you is

18:40

trying to tip it . Yeah , yeah , yeah

18:42

, they're trying to hit it the other way . Yeah , in

18:44

baseball , so yeah we're . We're

18:46

much different . So much wait , we're

18:48

trying to foul tip it . Uh , no

18:51

, that's what I'm saying . In hockey , they're

18:53

trying to redirect it . So

18:55

now you've got this puck , yeah that's this wide

18:57

and then it's going 100 miles an hour

19:00

and they're trying to deflect it , you

19:02

know , into your past , you , whatever . Yeah , you know , we're with us . They're

19:04

trying to hit it into your pasture or whatever .

19:06

With us . They're trying to hit it the other way , yeah , which

19:08

is nice , completely different .

19:10

But I would say most of

19:12

playing other sports . Yes

19:15

, you develop different muscle groups

19:17

, but

19:20

you also develop

19:22

different mindsets . A

19:25

hockey mindset is different from

19:27

a baseball mindset . It's different from

19:29

a soccer mindset . It's different from

19:31

a football mindset and I like

19:33

that idea of kids playing all

19:36

these sports , because now you get

19:38

different things going on

19:40

. In

19:42

football , you lose your temper , you're going to

19:44

get a penalty . And in baseball you lose your temper , you're gonna you're gonna get

19:46

a penalty . Um in , in baseball you lose your temper

19:48

, you're you're worthless . Golf , you're worthless

19:50

. The only thing I loved about hockey

19:53

I could lose my temper and still be good

19:55

yeah , they want you to lose your temper .

20:02

Some things never change .

20:04

I , I love the mindset . Mindset thought Brownie right

20:06

, Because even in the broadcast you

20:08

have to have a different mindset there , because I'm a guy that gets sped

20:11

up and I have to learn how to slow down . Same thing I

20:13

had in the game , but that mindset is a game

20:15

changer . I think that's the separator to stay in the big

20:17

leagues , don't you think it really is ?

20:25

And that's like I said , it comes from different types of competition . Once you get involved

20:27

and you sign your first professional

20:29

contract , then it's a matter

20:31

of really refining

20:34

how you react

20:37

to the game . And

20:40

once you get that right mindset and

20:43

make the proper reactions , that's

20:45

whenever your athleticism you

20:47

know is able to show through . Instead

20:50

of thinking so much , it's

20:52

natural , yeah , exactly .

20:53

I'm going to ask both of you guys , because you've seen a lot of games

20:56

Like when do you see that manifest in

20:58

guys in my leagues ? Because obviously it's going a lot faster

21:00

for guys now . We

21:05

saw Prodigies get to the big leagues leagues earlier , but like now they're rushing to the big

21:07

leagues . And we saw last year jackson holiday they brought him down . That

21:09

was brilliant . Came back different cat . But

21:11

like when or what do you guys look

21:13

for ? Like you in the booth you've been in the

21:15

booth too but like what are you guys looking for when you're

21:18

watching a guy and say something's shifting

21:20

and how long maybe does it take ? Because I feel

21:22

like I needed to fail more and

21:24

I would have been better served at points being

21:27

a triple a , getting some understanding

21:29

of who I am and then coming back with a different mindset .

21:31

I mean , for me it's it was a

21:33

looking at a quiet um

21:36

confident pace everything

21:39

started to slow down , so basically , yeah , it's

21:41

where you , where you're not so anxious

21:43

and you can tell a hitter when

21:45

he's anxious he is committing

21:48

too soon . We're a guy once

21:50

he slows everything down and

21:53

then you've got that confidence that

21:55

I can take this pitch and

21:57

still be able to produce

22:00

. Versus when you're younger it's like

22:02

, well , I just missed my cookie

22:04

, now I'm done . Yeah , panic . I

22:06

think that's a big part of it . And a lot

22:08

of guys you can read their faces and

22:11

you can see their eyes .

22:12

Well , you can see it after and at bat Boy . You can see them

22:14

go back to the dugout and just see it . They

22:19

say the deer in the headlight look , but you can absolutely see it . It's amazing how these guys that

22:21

struggle as young guys it does feel like it

22:23

is 0-2 immediately

22:25

when they get to the plate . It's an old cliche again

22:27

, but they are behind in the count all

22:29

the time .

22:30

Well , you know , and back in the day , you

22:32

know your premium

22:35

home run hitters . Rob

22:38

Deere would strike out 100 times

22:40

.

22:40

Yeah , now everybody does . Yeah , you

22:42

know . So that part's a little bit different

22:44

.

22:50

Yeah , and it's a lot does . Yeah , you know . So that part I think that's

22:52

a little bit different . Yeah , and it's a lot different . You know where you . You know

22:54

you don't see as much as the two-strike approach now and that's the emphasis back

22:56

when I played , which is a different um emphasis and you're compensated

22:59

differently than when

23:01

we were back then . So that

23:03

part I understand . You know you're

23:05

going to get paid , get the ball out of the ballpark

23:07

and you're not going to be kind

23:10

of penalized for striking

23:12

out so we're back in the day If

23:15

you struck out too much and you didn't have any pop

23:17

you're gone , but you really don't get rewarded

23:19

for being a guy that moves .

23:21

When he was with the Pirates , a J-Bell type . Not

23:23

much of a reward for that type of baseball player

23:25

these days , unless you're on a great team

23:28

.

23:28

We had a cool conversation the other day about 10 more

23:30

points on the batting average . You think about

23:32

the on-base percentage . It puts us

23:34

in a better category when it comes to offense , right

23:36

? Just 10 more points on our batting average overall . How

23:39

do you balance that ? Because that's the one thing that's so

23:41

hard to watch is there

23:43

is guys chasing the arbitration number

23:45

. Right , If they have five more home runs , that may be $200,000

23:47

, $300,000 . I mean , it's not a

23:49

little bit of money . So how do you balance it

23:51

out ? Because if they maybe get five more hits instead

23:54

of 10 more strikeouts , that's a big deal

23:56

.

23:56

Yeah , it really is , and that's what's

23:58

driving a lot of what we see

24:00

on offense now is that

24:02

paycheck that money and you know what ?

24:04

But to win you've got to do both yeah .

24:10

And you know it . Just you know that's one of the things Clint , when he was

24:12

manager here , I would help in spring

24:15

training and

24:17

I saw situational heading I saw none

24:19

of it and

24:23

I was absolutely flabbergasted . Yeah , you know your big guys

24:25

were a lot of pop . You don't expect them to

24:27

. You know , roll the ball over . You

24:29

know , hit the ball second base , then move a

24:31

runner . But you expected your little

24:33

guys to be able to do that and

24:36

now you don't see that .

24:38

Well , it's interesting , though Spanky , in

24:40

that you're now hearing guys like Andrew

24:42

McCutcheon quoted the other day . Pirate Fest

24:44

said it , and it's not a great

24:47

secret the only way a team like the Pirates

24:49

can win is to have players

24:51

like that . Now you need some guys like Cruz

24:53

to hit the ball in the ballpark , otherwise

24:55

you better move guys Well , you know , and

24:58

PNC , I

25:01

wouldn't call it a home

25:03

run . It's paradise , especially for a righty , that's

25:06

gigantic .

25:07

And left and center is gigantic . I

25:10

mean , right field looks fairly reachable

25:12

but it's not like some of these other little

25:14

band boxes . And

25:17

you go back to the days whenever I

25:19

played with and against the Cardinals . St

25:21

Louis Bush Stadium was a very

25:24

big ballpark and they had

25:26

their team . It was made of

25:28

defense and speed and

25:30

they hit the ball on the ground , beat it out

25:32

, stole bases and they were custom

25:35

built for that ballpark

25:37

. Where something you know . I'd

25:39

like to see that a little bit more in the

25:41

game . Yeah , we were talking about the grass .

25:44

We have some of the slowest grass in all baseball , it's kentucky

25:46

bluegrass and it's thick . And

25:48

I I said I wish they would change it and they've

25:50

been looking into it about changing to permuta . But yeah

25:53

, to your point . Then you think about the pitching , you think

25:55

about the defense . I , I kid

25:57

you not , I bet if it went to permuta it's 10 points of

25:59

the batting average immediately , because that's how much faster

26:01

it is .

26:02

Well , that's uh back in the day at jack

26:04

murphy stadium . You know that that was a

26:06

very fast track . Um

26:08

, you'd go to uh and I did

26:10

this a wrigley field especially

26:13

early in the season the grass is

26:15

like six inches thick and

26:17

it'd be wet , and so in batting practice

26:20

I went , put a ball down behind

26:22

the pitcher's mound and

26:24

put a little grass on top of it .

26:25

I remember you did this .

26:27

And didn't tell anybody no , I didn't . And so

26:29

I go out about the fourth or fifth inning and

26:32

I go and Frank Pulley is the

26:34

second place umpire . I go , frank , could

26:36

you pick up that ball right there

26:39

? And he looks at me and goes , what

26:45

are you doing ? I go there's a ball there , and tell him to cut the grass , you know , because

26:47

I mean you couldn't hit the ball , you

26:49

threw that grass . And sure

26:52

enough , he comes over and picks it up . And

26:54

I go see , you know , just

26:56

I did that , I mean it , just you

26:58

know something to you know , to

27:01

prove a point , I mean and this is nothing

27:03

against Ryan Sandberg , but

27:05

Ryan Sandberg at Wrigley Field

27:08

was a much better defender than

27:10

he was .

27:10

Yeah , I think slower right , slowed him down , slowed the

27:13

ball down , he got to the ball . Quite the range you

27:15

know , but hey again you know

27:18

it's Tailored to that team , though Exactly

27:20

. Yeah , Going to help my second baseman . That

27:26

was the ballpark . That's the way it goes . What's your favorite ballpark , by

27:28

the way ? I ?

27:28

loved Wrigley . I really loved Wrigley

27:31

.

27:33

Just the atmosphere , yeah , everything about

27:35

it , you know it was the day games

27:37

Back in

27:39

our day .

27:41

you only knew what day it was . It

27:44

was Sunday because it was a day game yeah

27:46

, everything else yeah until

27:48

you went to wrigley and then you don't know

27:50

what day it was yeah , then you had some day games

27:52

, yeah , and I mean that was just kind of cool

27:55

. You'd see people of all types , you'd

27:57

get suits . Yeah , you know , coat and tie

27:59

, come in , rip off the tie

28:02

, grab a , an old style

28:04

yeah , chug it , go to work . Hot

28:06

dog mustard all over your , your nice

28:09

, um , uh , pressed um

28:11

button up shirt . Yeah , I mean to me that

28:13

was just cool as could be , yeah . And then you had

28:15

the other folks that were just regular

28:17

folks just coming out to see a ball game

28:19

in the afternoon . Loyal , loyal , yeah , very

28:21

, and and just the atmosphere was fabulous

28:24

.

28:24

I liked Kingdom Yards back in the

28:26

day I thought that they had great atmosphere

28:28

also One of my favorites . Yeah , yeah .

28:30

Baltimore . Hey , spanky , we love

28:32

checking guys . Major League debuts

28:34

. September 9 , 1984

28:37

in Montreal . You

28:40

came in , I think , to catch

28:42

right in the 10th inning .

28:43

Yeah , so back in the day at

28:46

Olympic Stadium the bullpens were

28:48

like our bullpen visit

28:51

. Bullpen was beyond right

28:53

field and they had like a nice

28:56

fishing house that was the bullpen , and

28:59

so we had like six different catchers

29:01

. They called me up basically to catch

29:04

in the bullpen . So I was like great , and now

29:06

we've gone through Bo Diaz

29:08

, ozzie , virgil John .

29:10

Walken . I should mention that the folks

29:12

that don't hit with the Phillies obviously .

29:13

Everybody . And

29:15

now they just pinch run

29:17

for our last catcher . And I know it is

29:20

and I go , I'm in the game . And

29:23

now I start getting really nervous and

29:25

the phone rings and I'm going let's

29:28

get . It's the wrong number . So

29:31

now it says hey , you

29:33

know you're catching , get in here . So

29:36

now you have to run . And I had to run

29:38

across their dugout

29:40

to get to our dugout . Okay

29:43

, and I was shaking like a leaf Wait

29:45

, wait , you had to run from right field

29:47

, oh , like in front of their dugout

29:49

.

29:50

Go get us my game .

29:52

And I I I

29:54

get timed against a turtle and lost Okay

29:57

. So it took a long time for me to get

29:59

to the dugout . So I get there and

30:01

and I'm I'm

30:06

shaky a little bit . This is my debut and jerry , that's unbelievable . And jerry kuzman comes

30:08

over and he's helping me put my shin

30:10

guard no way , no . And then with

30:12

the phillies , and he goes kid you'll be

30:14

okay , you'll be okay were you shaky a little bit I

30:16

was really shaky you know , once I got to

30:18

the field I was okay , but the

30:21

lead up to that it

30:23

was just like what's the deal ? I started

30:25

out the year in 1984 in

30:28

double a as a backup catcher , so

30:31

this was a fast

30:33

track huge thing for me what was

30:35

it like ?

30:36

who was the pitcher , by the way ?

30:37

yeah oh , larry anderson , oh

30:39

my god , larry anderson . All he threw was

30:41

sliders and I wasn't quite sure

30:43

, you know , hadn't seen that

30:46

much of really any of those

30:48

guys . And so

30:50

I put down a one . He shook his head Slider

30:53

, yeah , one , no Slider

30:55

. So I just put down slider

30:58

and he'd be back

31:00

door . He'd use both sides and I just said

31:02

, well , there's no need for a one or a two , it's

31:04

just slider , slider , slider , slider , and

31:07

he gets out of the inning . We won the ballgame

31:09

, so I came in catching for the

31:11

save , so you

31:13

got your first save .

31:14

That's right . Yeah , good for you . Didn't

31:18

you get in a bat that day too ? Yeah

31:20

?

31:21

I was a little excited Back

31:25

then I was a Pole hitter with no power , that didn't

31:27

go . Dick Rapafee Was

31:30

a sinker baller , and he throws

31:32

me a little sinker outside and I politely

31:34

hit a 42 hopper to

31:37

the second baseman and I'm

31:39

not beating him . You were trying to hit it in the seats though . Oh

31:41

hell yeah .

31:43

I go up there .

31:45

Now batting like .

31:47

La Vallee . Oh , that's right , Of

31:50

course you're in Montreal . It's perfect .

31:51

I didn't even thought about that , and now I'm going to make

31:53

a huge splash .

31:56

You were like 5'11 at that point . The

31:59

fans in Montreal love that he's

32:01

batting . Mike is a bat , yeah .

32:03

I get up to the plate and my spikes

32:05

never touched the .

32:07

AstroTurf and get in there

32:09

.

32:09

And no game plan , no , nothing , it was just like

32:12

I'm just going to knock the piss

32:14

out of this . Wait , did you guys ?

32:15

really wear spikes in the AstroTurf . Oh yeah , oh

32:17

, no wonder you guys had so many problems ?

32:20

Yeah , I've got two replacement knees . Yeah , yeah , I've

32:22

got two replaced knees . Yeah , yeah , but you know what ? Ouch

32:24

, I love hitting on it .

32:26

Oh , yeah , yeah , yeah .

32:28

But taking the toll on your body

32:30

, backs , knees yeah , because

32:32

they just threw carpet down over cement Pretty

32:35

much . Yeah , yeah , it was Montreal

32:38

was an older place too

32:40

, and it was cold .

32:42

I heard everybody I've ever talked to that

32:44

I didn't get to play montreal . They loved it like

32:46

they love the city , they love the town . It

32:48

makes me wonder why baseball is not there anymore , because

32:51

I know that they would support it the

32:53

fans at that time I don't

32:55

think appreciated .

32:56

The game makes sense , you know and hockey

32:58

is a much different game to watch

33:01

. Yeah um , I had a chance to go to the Forum

33:03

in Montreal A huge

33:05

event Saturday everybody

33:07

coat and tie the women dressed in

33:09

the nines . This is an

33:12

event where the baseball

33:14

you'd have 5,000 people in

33:17

an 80,000- .

33:20

When they were winning . They were one of the best teams in the early

33:22

90s . For me they had the best teams in the early 90s . They had great teams

33:24

From Marty and Dawson , I mean for me .

33:26

They had the best scouting system that

33:29

I ever saw while I was playing .

33:30

Yeah , some of the names if you drop some of the names in the early

33:32

90s .

33:32

Raines , Raines and Dawson , and

33:35

I mean the pitching staff that they

33:37

had , I mean it was absolutely

33:39

fabulous . They had a very , very good

33:41

team .

33:43

How about your first big league

33:45

start about 12

33:47

days later .

33:50

Do you remember ? Let's find the whole thing

33:52

out .

33:54

Do you know where you were ?

33:55

Yeah , we were at the vet .

33:56

No , no , of all

33:58

places , three River Stadium , we were in Three

34:00

River Stadium . Man

34:02

Wow , and your first

34:05

hit is off of .

34:06

Rick Roden . Yeah , yeah

34:09

, so I get the ball back and they can't

34:11

even write on it because there's so many

34:13

scuff marks .

34:14

Oh , because of Roden , and tack marks

34:17

.

34:17

They had to use a different ball . So the ball

34:19

I have at home for my first hit

34:21

isn't the real ball ? Of course not , I couldn't

34:24

even write on it .

34:25

Tricky Ricky , Did you keep it though ?

34:27

You have that ball .

34:27

Oh , yeah , yeah , I still have it Looks like the

34:30

Sandlot ball . Oh yeah , Just messed

34:32

up .

34:32

Yeah , it's just like you know

34:34

. It looks like you know . If you give

34:36

your kids a ball and they go play

34:39

back , that's

34:41

what it looked like .

34:43

Did you end up catching him at all later

34:45

? No , you never did no .

34:47

Tricky was gone by the time I got to

34:49

Tricky . I love it .

34:50

So that's 84

34:52

. And now in

34:55

April again April 1st 1987

34:57

, you're traded to the Pirates . But you had been traded

35:00

from the Phillies to the Cardinals in

35:02

84 , right .

35:03

Yeah , in the winter meetings in 84 .

35:05

And what was that like ?

35:06

And this was a mess because I had a

35:08

very , very good year . I said I started

35:11

off the year as the backup in AA got

35:15

off to a very good start . Aaron

35:17

Dalton was in AAA . He got hurt

35:19

. They called me up rather than the number

35:22

one guy because he was just not doing

35:24

very well , that's the one event . And

35:26

then I get to AAA . First

35:29

time I got a chance to play every day . I

35:31

ended up hitting like 320 . I

35:33

had like five or six homers this is in a

35:35

month and a half and I never hit many

35:37

home runs and

35:40

the Cardinals , liked

35:42

what they saw , made the trade

35:44

. I ended up having knee surgery

35:46

just

35:49

a little slight tear of the meniscus and

35:52

it was outpatient . I

35:54

went in , got it done , left that day

35:57

and two days

35:59

later Bruce Suter

36:01

signed with the Braves . So

36:03

I get traded for Jeff Lottie . That was two

36:05

right-handers out of their bullpen , and

36:08

so now we can't do the trade . So

36:11

I called it off because Lottie was going to be

36:13

their closer , so they called

36:15

off the trade . And once they called off

36:17

the trade , the Phillies had already filled

36:20

my spot on the roster . So I became

36:22

a free agent and

36:25

the Cardinals wanted me anyway . So

36:27

I ended up signing with the Cardinals . Made a little

36:29

extra money on it , man .

36:30

And you see , now you play for Whitey . Yeah , what

36:32

was that like ?

36:34

Whitey was extremely

36:36

.

36:38

Tough , brilliant , oh , brilliant , brilliant

36:40

as a field

36:42

general oh yeah , explain

36:45

that deeper .

36:45

I want to hear more about it . You're talking about

36:48

a guy that was

36:50

three innings ahead of everybody . You

36:53

know he handled his pitching staff

36:55

, all of his you

36:57

know moves that he made . It

37:00

was just every time it was brilliant

37:02

. He was not what

37:05

you'd call a young guy's manager . He

37:08

took care of his veteran guys Really not

37:10

a whole lot of interaction with

37:13

the younger guys , so

37:16

it was great to watch and

37:19

to learn , but then whenever I

37:21

get traded over to Pittsburgh

37:23

, but then whenever I get traded

37:26

over to Pittsburgh , then I came across

37:28

another incredible field manager that was a players manager . I

37:31

was so fortunate to have back-to-back

37:33

guys that were just two of the best .

37:36

Later you played for Geno Lamont right

37:38

, the White Sox . How

37:40

about the pitching staff

37:42

? By the way , in 86 , were

37:45

you a teammate with Clint Hurdle in 86 ? Yes , I

37:47

was . Isn't that wild ? Yes , I was . How

37:49

about it ?

37:51

Clint was our utility guy , played

37:53

first , played the outfield . He was our third

37:55

catcher .

37:57

He played everywhere .

38:01

And yeah , Clint was a little wilder back then .

38:03

Yeah , yeah , by the time we got him here . Yeah , clem was a little

38:05

wilder back then . Yeah , yeah , by the time we got him here . Yeah , yeah , in

38:07

84 , the pitching staff for

38:10

the Cardinals Bob Forsh , danny

38:12

Cox , john Tudor , tim Conroy , the Gateway

38:15

High School product , who's a longtime

38:17

scout , I think , with the Royals now , todd Worrell was a

38:19

closer , so that's the other thing too

38:21

. You had . You had some good pitching staffs over the years

38:23

, didn't you ?

38:24

Yeah , the phenomenal , that's because they're catching .

38:26

Well , yeah , I understand , but

38:29

you always like to give a nod to the pitchers .

38:31

These were proven guys . Joaquin Andujar

38:33

was there also and

38:36

these are good quality , talented

38:38

guys that

38:40

helped me with my developments

38:43

. Calling games of just

38:45

kind of feeling out what

38:47

they wanted to do and paying attention

38:49

to it . That helped me out an awful lot

38:52

. But that team is pitching . The

38:54

defense and the speed were just incredible

38:56

, did you ?

38:57

I'm sorry . Go ahead , no Spanky , like when you say

38:59

they helped you kind of fill out what they wanted

39:02

to do . Go a little bit deeper , Because now

39:04

it's complete you talk about back

39:06

in the day . You said that a couple times . That's

39:08

one thing I miss .

39:09

I miss guys tearing up their scouting report

39:11

and going off field , especially off that

39:13

guy that's

39:16

the one thing that I , and I still believe

39:18

to this day , is that guy on

39:20

the mound is a different guy every time

39:22

. He takes them one thousand percent,000% , and so

39:24

your scouting reports the only

39:27

thing I really ever wanted to know about

39:29

the other team . Okay , yeah , I want

39:31

to know his weaknesses , but is he hot

39:33

or is he cold ? So

39:35

if your superstar on the

39:37

other team was cold , we'd

39:40

do different things against

39:42

him rather than try to get them out the

39:44

same way , you know , when he was on fire

39:46

. Now you had to pay a little different

39:49

attention and , yeah , I learned that a

39:51

lot from Bob Forge and Tudor

39:53

you know where

39:55

they would pitch different guys different

39:58

ways , depending on situations

40:00

and what they've been doing

40:03

lately .

40:05

So , in terms of of what you as a catcher

40:07

, your priorities and your

40:10

in your mind , one of the first , most important things

40:12

is to know what

40:14

. First of all , as a broadcast , yes

40:16

.

40:19

You notice , the amateur hasn't touched his mic

40:22

.

40:22

Yeah , yeah . Well , you're not supposed to play with

40:24

it Anyhow .

40:24

Okay , well , you're not supposed to play with it Anyhow , my name's

40:26

Mike . So

40:29

my question was when

40:32

you prioritize as a catcher and you

40:34

were catching Spanky most

40:38

important to you was to know whether

40:40

guys were hot or cold , first and foremost .

40:42

Yeah , so much stuff goes into your brain For cold , first and foremost , yeah .

40:45

So much stuff goes into your brain .

40:46

For the opposing team yes , yeah . But

40:48

for my pitcher , what

40:51

has he got that night ? Because

40:54

out of 35 starts he's

40:56

going to have probably 10 starts

40:58

where he's got his best stuff

41:00

. You don't have to vary too much . He's

41:03

going to have 10 starts where he stinks , where

41:05

you have to try to get him .

41:07

That's the hardest working night for a catcher , right

41:09

yeah , you're mentally exhausted . To get you through it , get

41:12

him through fifth or sixth inning back in

41:14

the day . Yeah , yeah .

41:16

That was a job well done for me . Yeah

41:18

, and it was the in-between , it

41:20

was those 15 starts in between

41:23

where kind of good stuff , kind

41:25

of not as bad .

41:26

That's usually when they don't know either .

41:33

And that's where I needed to know and differentiate that

41:35

and hopefully know early enough in the game to get the most out of

41:37

it .

41:37

So you platooned when we were at the Pirates with

41:40

Slott and then , I think , ron Karkovice

41:42

when you were at the White Sox . What's

41:45

that like when it's kind of

41:47

a dual situation ? Do

41:49

you try , do you guys both kind of

41:51

combine and figure out how to catch certain

41:53

pitchers , or do

41:56

you put your own stamp on it ? How does that work

41:58

? Yeah ?

41:58

it was pretty much an individual thing

42:00

. I mean , he had the

42:03

book on hitters . You know , Donnie

42:05

knew , you know the book , I

42:07

knew the book . But how we handled

42:09

the pitching staff was completely

42:12

different . It was . And if you ask the pitchers

42:14

, you know it's like oh yes , spanky

42:16

, you know , gets me to do this , or

42:18

Donnie got me to do this . You

42:21

know , those are the different things that

42:23

just make , make us all different . Yeah , no doubt . You

42:25

know , instead of becoming robotic

42:27

and that's to me that's the worst

42:29

thing , because I would hit off

42:31

the catchers you

42:34

know that would be .

42:34

You know , if I had a catcher , that was just a blockhead

42:37

.

42:37

I kind of knew what was coming , huh I

42:40

wish I would have knew that more , like a

42:42

lot of the reds guys did that and would pay

42:44

attention to what the catcher's doing . Votto cared

42:46

more about what if I was catching

42:48

or if Russell was catching . I'll never forget he tapped me

42:50

on the leg and said today's my day Never got a hit

42:52

off me . It's three years into my career

42:54

he's never got a hit off me . Votto never got

42:56

a hit off no he got a broken back single through

42:58

, the yelled at me . I said you can't get it like

43:01

that , you can't get it like that . But

43:03

I took pride in that too , because I always tried

43:05

to see who was up there , and especially the big guys . But

43:07

that's something in my career because I didn't

43:09

think about that . I wish I would have paid more

43:11

attention , because I mean a lot of those guys , you

43:14

know , like he's talking about blockheads , they put down

43:16

what they can't hit , like oh I can't

43:18

hit the breaking ball , I'm gonna throw the breaking ball down

43:20

.

43:20

Yeah , yeah , you know , and , as you

43:22

know , you know , especially younger

43:25

pitchers yeah , you know , it was like

43:27

you know , oh , two fastball

43:30

up and in , and now I'd be diving

43:32

out over . You knew what was coming for that . One

43:34

, two pitch . That's kind of what analytics are doing now

43:36

.

43:36

It's making it very predictable . If you pay attention , you'll

43:39

see a guy and you'll know okay , here comes a heater

43:41

up , you know it . It becomes to where

43:44

. That's where his style

43:46

and I believe , my style like . I think about the

43:48

personality first and then kind of rotate

43:50

down . It matters so much more because you

43:52

will throw a wrinkle and then that guy's complete

43:55

game plan goes out the window . And it's

43:57

fun tell me , it's not fun to see that guy's head go

43:59

.

44:00

Oh well , there were certain guys that

44:03

I would sit on a certain pitch .

44:04

Okay , and try to eliminate that for

44:07

later on in the ballgame , Dennis Martinez

44:09

had a great curveball okay .

44:11

So my first two at-bats I'd

44:14

be looking for the curveball and I would make

44:16

a good swing at it , and if he didn't

44:18

throw it , I'd do my best with two strikes

44:20

. But I felt good enough about my game plan that I didn't mind hitting

44:23

with two strikes . But I I felt good enough about my my game plan

44:25

and I didn't mind hitting with two strikes . But if

44:27

he threw me that hook , okay , I

44:29

was gonna make a good pass at it . Try

44:31

to eliminate that for later on in

44:33

the game , because that's one of his best pitches

44:35

try to eliminate it .

44:37

Man , think about that . Let's just set that

44:39

game . You hate to say it , nobody . I'm sure

44:41

the guys do that now , but but not as much I know , I know

44:43

I again , I hate to well , it I'm sure the guys do that now , Not as much though I know

44:45

. Again , I hate to suggest that You've got to balance

44:47

where .

44:48

I think that's where some of the

44:50

hitters are lacking . Now you balance

44:53

the analytics with

44:55

your own brain and what you're

44:57

seeing , because your eyes aren't lying

45:00

to you . If you let that

45:02

inside . Now you can go

45:04

ahead and balance that . You know

45:07

we didn't have the analytics . We

45:09

didn't have . You know , all of the uh

45:12

, the computer stuff and and

45:14

printouts and stuff . You know that they have

45:16

now , which is to me a great advantage

45:18

, yeah . But sometimes the great advantage can

45:21

become your detriment . Right when

45:23

you pay too much attention , you become

45:25

robotic .

45:26

So how did you get to the point where you

45:29

went up and looked for that good breaking ball , like what

45:31

made you come to that conclusion ?

45:32

It's not easy . It

45:35

was always against one of the better pitchers

45:37

. You know it's like well heck

45:39

. You know you're facing Nolan . I've

45:41

tried to eliminate his fastball . Good

45:44

luck with that you have to be realistic

45:47

about it . But you know you're better

45:49

starters . You know I would try . You

45:51

know one guy maybe had a real good changeup . Let's

45:54

sit on the change , that's not easy

45:56

though . No , it's very hard , and

45:59

it's to the point where you said

46:01

you get your confidence level

46:04

up and your patience level

46:06

to where you're comfortable . Confidence

46:09

and comfortability is

46:11

a huge thing .

46:12

We've heard that before . Oh yeah , Mike Berger was talking about

46:15

confidence and momentum .

46:16

Yeah .

46:17

That you get that comfortability and then you become

46:19

good , and then good turns into great . That's

46:21

well said .

46:22

Spanky . Did you have an inkling , by the way , of the

46:24

trade to Pittsburgh ? It was

46:26

a three-for-one deal . Again , it was

46:28

April 1st . Everybody thought it was an April

46:30

Fool's joke . It was Tony Pena . Here you are

46:32

. Tony Pena is one of the most popular

46:34

catchers in recent memory . He

46:36

got his first hit through Rivers Of course I

46:38

know he's written in stone April

46:41

Fool's Day 1987

46:43

. It was no joke . When Tony

46:45

Pena was traded , pirate

46:53

fans had lost one of their favorite players , and they knew little about Andy

46:55

Van Slyke and even less about Mike LaValliere and Mike Dunn , but by

46:57

season's end they would know plenty

47:00

. He

47:02

may not have been the biggest name in the

47:04

deal , but his stocky build reminded

47:07

pirate fans of a famous buck backstop

47:09

named Smokey Burgess , mike

47:13

Spanky LaValliere earned a

47:15

name for himself in 87 as

47:17

he quietly hit 300 while

47:19

catching in over 100 games . His

47:32

lightning-quick release caught many

47:35

would-be base-dealers dead in their tracks

47:37

, as

47:42

LaValliere earned himself a 1987

47:45

Gold Glove Award . Well , let's just say Did you have an inkling that was coming

47:47

? No , no idea , no idea .

47:49

Whatsoever . We had a B

47:51

game that morning and Steve

47:53

Lake was the other

47:55

catcher with the Cardinals and Steve Lake

47:57

caught all nine innings . This is the end

47:59

of spring training . There's only two catchers . He

48:02

caught all nine innings . So I'm out

48:04

getting ready for the a game at l

48:06

lang stadium me and andy and we're

48:08

going through you know our running

48:10

and getting ready and dave ricketts comes

48:13

in and says how many days come

48:15

on ?

48:15

you're not playing . How many days before the regular season

48:17

is this ?

48:18

like three or four okay , yeah so

48:20

uh , hello , he goes , you're not playing and

48:22

I go . What ?

48:23

do you ?

48:24

mean , I'm who's catching laker

48:26

? Well , you know what ?

48:27

nobody's catching the doubleheader right , yeah , especially

48:30

in spring training . Yeah , now it's okay

48:32

. So now , andy and I , were sitting in

48:34

the dugout that's like , and

48:36

we're going all right , we're

48:39

traded .

48:39

But okay , well

48:41

, there's only two places where we don't want to go .

48:44

We don't want to go to Montreal because

48:46

of the whole thing up there , or

48:49

Pittsburgh , what

48:51

? No way , I have to admit it . I

48:53

mean , they had just lost 100 games

48:56

, three or four seasons in a row .

48:58

Yeah .

48:59

Getting over the drug trials .

49:01

Yeah , all of this stuff .

49:03

There's a lot of you know , and you're

49:05

leaving an absolute fabulous

49:07

organization with the Cardinals , and

49:10

then you know , get called into the office , been

49:12

traded to the pirates , you know , and it's just

49:14

like you want to talk about someone killing your

49:16

pet snake . Oh boy , I

49:18

was just like you would say pet snake , not

49:21

your little dog .

49:22

Pet snake , yeah , not your little dog .

49:23

Yeah , pet snake , yeah . So

49:25

it was just like , well you

49:28

know , and then you know . So

49:30

the next day , me and Andy got to make a good

49:32

impression , and so we leave

49:34

St Peter early , right . There's

49:38

an accident on the Skyway . We

49:40

got no cell phones , we can't call , we

49:42

can't tell .

49:43

So we come moseying in you're trying to get

49:45

to bradenton , which is just over the skyway

49:48

bridge , so so we're so we're um

49:51

. We come moseying in about 11 , 30

49:53

just you and vance like right

49:56

, and I'm sure , I'm sure everybody's going .

49:58

Look at these two prima donna assholes , yeah

50:00

, you know coming in when they want , right

50:03

, well , you know , leland comes right

50:05

over . Yeah , you say you know

50:07

, hey , we were , you know , glad to

50:09

have you . We really wanted you , you know

50:11

you want . You want number 10 . That

50:13

was your number with the phillies and carters

50:16

number 10 and I look at I go

50:18

that's your number . He goes no

50:20

, no , you can have it . So now I'm

50:22

going is this guy

50:24

nuts or is this a test

50:26

? So I'm not going to take the manager's

50:28

number . So what are you

50:30

crazy ? Yeah , it says no , no , no , I'll

50:33

get another number . It's just a number . Yeah

50:35

, yeah , and , but that was my first interaction

50:37

with what do ?

50:39

you think what ? Was it just a test ? Do you

50:41

think ? What ? Do you think ? I don't know you ever , you ever talked to him

50:43

about it ?

50:43

no , I'd love to ask him no , yeah , I would

50:46

too . That'd be a great . I think he didn't . I think

50:48

it was genuine , I do he probably did .

50:49

It was just it was only a second year going into a second

50:52

year as a big league manager and and so

50:54

so you know , obviously don't

50:56

have any black and gold , I've got red

50:58

spikes .

51:00

So hooli or um clubhouse

51:02

guy at the time and nobody

51:04

had my size . You know I had size

51:06

.

51:07

You know , 4f , you

51:12

know it's 10 feet 4F , is that German ?

51:16

So nobody's got my and

51:18

I'm not going to wear the rest . Go to local Little League folks

51:20

. So Hooli

51:22

takes like a four-inch brush and

51:24

house paint and paints my

51:27

spikes black . That's awesome

51:29

, right , wow . And so now the

51:31

laces are all gooey and

51:33

I'm tightening my shoes . I got paint all

51:35

over my spikes and about the third

51:38

inning it all wears off anyway . But

51:40

it was like yeah , welcome to Pittsburgh

51:42

.

51:43

Are you in right away , that the next day ? You guys know

51:45

that yeah that game I was like

51:47

the next day yeah , started

51:49

that .

51:49

I love that they were driving across the

51:51

skyway .

51:52

It's like lavalier and they're in the

51:54

walk of the clubhouse and they're in the game did you love

51:56

that , though , oh yeah , yeah

51:58

, like I think it's .

51:59

I think it's a statement . I really do so .

52:01

yeah , what was , what was it like , though , to replace

52:03

a guy like Tony Pena ? I mean , let's know secret how

52:05

popular he was , so was he a part of that trade ?

52:07

Yeah yeah , Tony was the main guy

52:09

.

52:09

He was the main part of the trade . He was the main guy , yeah , and

52:12

.

52:12

Whitey got him mostly

52:15

for the offense and that he didn't have

52:17

to pinch run for him .

52:25

He always had to pinch run for for me , so that was .

52:25

Whitey's thought process . I did talk to Whitey about that later . He says your defense was fine . Nothing went

52:28

wrong with that . But offensively I

52:30

thought we were a better ball club . When

52:32

we got a faster catcher it

52:34

had maybe a little bit more pop .

52:35

But coming

52:37

to Pittsburgh and

52:40

I got to ask that how are you going to replace

52:42

Tome ?

52:43

Nobody's going to replace him . I'm me

52:45

. I'm going to be me . I'm going to do my

52:48

best .

52:48

Well , let me ask you though Did you know how popular he

52:50

was in Pittsburgh ? Oh yeah , even before you got

52:52

him , oh yeah . I mean he was forever

52:54

.

52:55

He was the only representative to

52:57

the All-Star team yeah , yeah . You

53:06

, you know whatever , speaking of a guy that's talking about yeah , there's a knee down . Yeah

53:08

, well , I'll tell you this he and benito santiago had their knees

53:10

down , except when people are on

53:12

base , or if there was two strikes , then

53:14

they were in conventional okay catching

53:17

mode , but everybody goes . Well , they caught with one

53:19

knee down ?

53:20

yes , they did , but only

53:22

with , uh , you know , with less than two strikes

53:24

and with uh , without anybody on

53:26

base . So you , know

53:28

, but that's uh , that's a compromise , that's , that's a

53:30

good one I like that compromise .

53:31

There's guys doing that .

53:32

Now you know what that isn't that that to me makes

53:34

a little more sense .

53:35

That to me isn't a bad thing yeah , you

53:37

know , as long as you're not developing bad

53:39

habits with you receiving and

53:41

I've got no issues with it . I

53:43

was always comfortable just doing

53:45

what I did 100% .

53:48

You know , so I wasn't ever comfortable on

53:51

one knee .

53:53

I didn't get comfortable to one knee until

53:55

I was like 52 years

53:57

old in fantasy camp .

54:00

When I couldn't get it to my regular stance yeah let's just

54:02

sit down here when I couldn't get it to my regular

54:04

stand . So how quickly did you

54:06

find out that

54:08

you became because I think it was pretty

54:10

quick really a folk hero

54:12

in Pittsburgh ? It did not take long

54:14

, without disrespecting Tony Pena , for

54:17

them to forget him and fall in love with

54:19

Mike Spanky .

54:20

LaValliere . Well , you know what I

54:22

think , just my

54:25

work ethic . Yeah , I had to play

54:27

100 balls to the

54:29

wall every game because

54:31

I always felt that I

54:33

was the least talented guy physically

54:36

at the ballpark that day on

54:39

the field so I mindset

54:41

or did you really believe that ? and I and I I

54:43

believed that yeah I wasn't

54:45

as talented , but I also thought that

54:47

that was an advantage that people wouldn't

54:50

look at me like , oh gee , whiz , I need to

54:52

bear down . I thought that was an advantage

54:54

and I played that as an advantage they

54:57

also loved your personality though and

54:59

it's easy .

55:00

Reporters and stuff .

55:01

You're good to me because you know what ?

55:03

I'm a you're a people person , I'm a carry a

55:05

lunch pail kind of guy yeah , yeah , you know I'm a

55:07

bearish shot guy . I mean , that's

55:09

why you're made for Pittsburgh . That's what Pittsburgh

55:11

was all about . Yeah .

55:12

You know . So that was you know , something that

55:14

you know . If there was a match

55:16

made

55:19

me to go to Pittsburgh , you think about the most popular

55:21

catchers over the several

55:24

decades ?

55:26

Smokey Smokey Burgess , sangy

55:29

Manny Sangy and Spanky Smokey

55:31

Sangy Spanky Three of the most popular

55:34

catchers in the history of the Pirates Like

55:36

a chevelle of catchers .

55:37

Sss .

55:38

You go there in 1987

55:41

. Your first full year of the Pirates

55:44

. You win a gold glove .

55:47

Well , I'll tell you this and not

55:49

too many people remember this , but I

55:51

obviously do my first

55:53

throw is the second game of

55:55

the season .

55:56

John Tudor started for the Cardinals , so

55:58

Junior Ortiz started Of all things , you're playing against the Cardinals

56:01

, right ? How wild is that ?

56:02

The second game Danny Cox is throwing

56:04

for them . I know , danny , I caught him , so

56:07

I'm playing . Bob kipper walks

56:09

vince coleman to

56:11

lead off the game now I'm going off vince

56:13

coleman I've seen vince wreak havoc

56:15

right so kip just

56:18

barely moves . There goes vince . I

56:20

catch the ball and , and he's

56:22

vince is almost already like

56:25

dusting himself off and I go

56:27

and I'm gonna hold the ball and

56:29

my arm just doesn't stop

56:32

. The ball comes out of my hand and

56:34

it goes , lands

56:38

on the back of the mound and

56:40

rolls on the turf and doesn't

56:42

make second base .

56:43

Get out of here . That was my first throw

56:45

. That was my first throw as

56:47

a pirate .

56:49

You think I heard any boos oh .

56:52

We got you for banging it . Oh

56:54

no , Are

56:57

you kidding ?

56:58

me . He doesn't want to go , and so I end

57:00

up . Yeah , so it's not how you start

57:03

, it's how you finish .

57:04

Wow , that's wild . Yeah , your first

57:06

throw . I didn't realize that .

57:08

Oh god , you want to talk about , you

57:11

know , wanting to have a shovel and

57:13

dig a hole and jump in right there , my gosh

57:16

, oh and I don't

57:18

, I don't think I don't think I took my mask

57:20

off . Uh , even my first at bat

57:22

. I'm so embarrassed

57:25

. I think I went up to the plate with

57:27

my mask unbelievable .

57:29

So that's 87 . Uh

57:31

, you mentioned kipper , brian fisher

57:33

, big daddy rick russell , doug drabick , part

57:35

of that staff , mike dunn , who was part of that trade

57:37

, you and lavalier you . And uh , vance like

57:40

and dunn was like the sporting

57:42

news rookie of the year that year too . And then jim

57:44

got your closer 88 . Talk about

57:46

that 88 year . Well , when

57:48

did it happen ? What ? 88 , we

57:51

kind of like it's just

57:53

a bad luck well , you know what ?

57:56

the , the mets were fabulous . Yeah , I

57:58

mean we really weren't as

58:00

good as them . And , um

58:02

, you know we , you know we played

58:04

good brand of baseball , played

58:06

good defense , we threw strikes , we

58:08

did a lot of good things , but we didn't have

58:10

the , the , the horses to

58:13

win that race . The , the , the mets

58:15

were still too good and they , they had everything

58:17

you know they just , they

58:19

were just that good , um , but

58:21

we got a taste of

58:23

what it's going to take to be good

58:26

and that was something that you

58:28

know , jumping off , we had a lot of

58:30

after that season going into

58:33

89 . A lot of hope , a

58:35

promise of okay . Now we've been together

58:37

a few years here , you know we're

58:40

going to contend this year .

58:41

And then we all got hurt . Who was the first

58:43

that got hurt ? Was you ?

58:44

I think it was Sid . Was that Sid ? Sid got hurt first . This is 89

58:47

or 89 ? 89 . It's all the hope going into

58:49

89 . Sid getting hurt for the first couple weeks

58:51

and then not long after you get out , yeah . Sid

58:53

and I had surgery the same day at

58:56

Passavant Hospital . Same

59:07

day . Well , yeah , I went up to visit him he was . He didn't take to the anesthesia

59:09

as good as me , because um I'm pretty good at it , so

59:11

, but uh , so so I went to try

59:13

to pop him up a little bit , and and

59:15

uh , I ended up missing a

59:18

little over three months . And then andy

59:20

hurt what was your surgery

59:22

I had a torn ACL

59:25

and partially torn MCL

59:28

Three months .

59:29

Who was it ? Who was it ? He wasn't at the plate

59:31

, it was Rex Hudler . That's right

59:33

, and to this day , if I see him , I'll kill him . So

59:36

you think it was a dirty play ? It was a dirty play .

59:38

Yeah , he came in diving knees

59:41

to knees .

59:43

It was not a slide . Did he hit you on the side

59:45

? It was a takeout .

59:47

No , hit me straight . I was in perfect

59:49

position .

59:49

So that's why they hit you on the side . Hit me straight .

59:52

And it went down and my knee

59:55

was like this . So the bottom of my

59:57

knee was touching the ground . That's not good . If you're wondering

59:59

, yeah , the bottom of my back of my knee

1:00:01

was touching the ground and

1:00:03

I was still up . So yeah , it was

1:00:05

.

1:00:06

What was the play Spanky ? What was the play

1:00:08

? Describe what happened Hudlers

1:00:10

at second . Where

1:00:12

was the hit ? They said I think it might have been to Andy

1:00:15

To .

1:00:15

Andy and center , threw it home

1:00:17

. I catch it . Go

1:00:19

to make . The tag Takes out my knee

1:00:21

. Gosh , is

1:00:26

it like bang , bang , yeah and um it ? It ticked me off because the umpire called them

1:00:29

safe and usually , if there's contact at

1:00:31

home plate at all , you know your

1:00:33

catcher's going to get the benefit of the doubt . Yeah , and

1:00:35

jim quick was the umpire and I told

1:00:37

him about that afterwards I said you

1:00:39

know what every ball in the dirt , I will

1:00:41

get out of the way and you will wear that . Just

1:00:44

because of that play , I

1:00:46

was pissed .

1:00:48

Well , so now you come back , come back , and

1:00:50

now it's 90 .

1:00:51

In record time by the way yeah an unbelievable

1:00:53

recovery and then 90, .

1:00:55

Do you guys go into spring training and think we got a really

1:00:57

good shot here ? Absolutely , you do .

1:00:59

Yeah , I mean , it was basically a continuation

1:01:01

, file 89, . You

1:01:03

know , it was just too many

1:01:05

injuries for us to contend Couldn't overcome

1:01:07

, yeah . And then it was just like you

1:01:10

know , 90 ? All right , we're here . You

1:01:12

know , made a couple more , sid

1:01:14

and Leland made a couple more

1:01:16

acquisitions and that's

1:01:19

like you know , filled a couple holes . And

1:01:21

then it was like you know what , we got a good ball club

1:01:23

here , filled a couple holes and then it was

1:01:26

like you know what , we got a good ball club here and just seeing 24

1:01:28

run out to left field every night made

1:01:30

us a better team . That was special , huh .

1:01:32

Yeah .

1:01:33

Greatest player you ever saw . The best player ever .

1:01:35

Yeah , yeah , none

1:01:37

bar none .

1:01:37

From the gate , From the gate right .

1:01:39

Yeah .

1:01:39

Yeah , just unbelievable .

1:01:42

It's a shame that

1:01:44

what's taking place .

1:01:46

You know , should it be in the Hall of Fame ? Hey

1:01:48

, you know what , if everybody in the Hall of

1:01:50

Fame was milking cookies , okay

1:01:52

, then I'd say he doesn't belong

1:01:55

there's a lot of guys in the Hall of Fame that

1:01:57

were , you know , red juice and

1:01:59

amphetamines in order to take the field

1:02:01

. You know what's a performance enhancing

1:02:04

drug , so you know what Barry

1:02:08

didn't help himself being as caustic

1:02:10

as he was to everybody

1:02:12

.

1:02:14

I did a lot of crossword puzzles . Just before

1:02:16

doing the show . He did that To bone

1:02:18

up . I've

1:02:21

got it here on my phone . So

1:02:23

, spanky , which is the best of the three-division

1:02:25

title teams ? 90-91-92 ?

1:02:29

um I want to say 91 . We were probably

1:02:32

why ? Why best team ? Uh , we

1:02:34

had a taste in 90 and I think

1:02:36

we're a little strong . I like that word , he uses taste

1:02:38

get the taste ?

1:02:39

yeah , because , you get that taste , you want more . You know it's like

1:02:41

eating a lazy potato chip you can't just have one yeah

1:02:43

, yeah yeah , I think , I think uh , 91

1:02:46

.

1:02:46

I think we're overall a

1:02:48

better ball club did , but uh

1:02:50

, you know you run into the Reds , you

1:02:53

know , and you know , it's just

1:02:55

that team was stacked . And the Braves . I

1:02:57

mean you get the Braves and the Reds and you

1:02:59

know everybody was , you know they

1:03:01

were , everybody was good .

1:03:04

In the NLCS in 92 , when Waukee pitches

1:03:06

that complete game and you're

1:03:08

going down to Atlanta but still down

1:03:10

. Do you guys confident at that point ?

1:03:14

Yeah , I don't think so .

1:03:15

Because it's almost like you're unstoppable Until

1:03:17

.

1:03:17

Randy March called

1:03:19

Sid safe . I

1:03:21

knew we were going to win .

1:03:24

He was safe , wasn't he ? No , really

1:03:26

, do you think if replay ?

1:03:31

Whenever I do games for ESPN , he was 100% .

1:03:33

Have you broken it down Like

1:03:35

Zabruder , filmed it and looked at .

1:03:37

There wasn't enough angles .

1:03:39

It would be inconclusive .

1:03:40

I had my tech guys with ESPN look

1:03:43

at it and it's inconclusive . But

1:03:45

when you bend leg slide , your front

1:03:47

foot is up in the air . Because if it's

1:03:49

down , you're going to catch a spike .

1:03:51

And break your ankle . Okay .

1:03:53

Sid says he's safe . Umpire

1:03:55

said he's safe . That's what

1:03:57

the call was . But I still believe

1:04:00

that I got that back leg

1:04:02

before .

1:04:03

It was an unbelievable attempt I was able to actually

1:04:05

he's a big guy .

1:04:07

It was a heck of a play by LaVallia too

1:04:09

. He's leaning back . That leg's going to go up .

1:04:20

What's really weird about sports , and baseball in particular ? When guys make great plays

1:04:22

, unless the out is called , it's like forgotten 100 , but

1:04:24

the play is . It's an unbelievable catch and tag by lavalier . What

1:04:26

do you think about the throw from bonds ? He gets criticized

1:04:29

so much for it , bar .

1:04:30

Barry never possessed

1:04:32

a great arm . Yeah , you know if there was

1:04:34

any thing

1:04:38

to his game that wasn't as

1:04:40

good as everything else .

1:04:41

It was his arm . It was okay . It was a very

1:04:43

average arm .

1:04:45

So you know and everybody likes

1:04:47

to put the blame on Barry there's

1:04:50

a lot of things in that ballgame that

1:04:52

we could have added on a run

1:04:54

here a run there . Everybody

1:04:58

looks at that one play because that

1:05:01

was the end . But we had chances

1:05:03

earlier in that ballgame to

1:05:05

win the game back

1:05:07

then you can win games in the third and fourth

1:05:09

inning it's not always the ninth .

1:05:13

It's really unfair to put

1:05:15

the blame on Stan or Barry

1:05:17

or anybody , Because

1:05:20

Melinda was throwing some strikes that weren't being called right

1:05:22

.

1:05:22

Well , I had some issues with Randy

1:05:24

Marsh . Were you saying stuff to Marsh , by the way ? Yeah

1:05:26

, I was All polite , though

1:05:29

, right , let's

1:05:31

say I wasn't as polite . I

1:05:33

wasn't one of those guys that would bury

1:05:36

an umpire . Yeah , yeah I was . I was , but in the

1:05:38

heat of the moment of that you know it's a randy

1:05:40

that's a strike , you know , and I

1:05:42

may have had a adjective or two

1:05:44

, um , you know , besides that

1:05:46

, um , it was a combination of a number

1:05:48

of things that went wrong .

1:05:50

yeah , and and it just .

1:05:52

You know , now you can look back . It's like it wasn't

1:05:54

meant to be , but you know what it's

1:05:57

. Just I don't know if anything

1:05:59

could have been changed or if anybody

1:06:02

would have changed anything .

1:06:04

You know it . Just it didn't work . How tough was

1:06:06

the clubhouse afterward ?

1:06:07

Oh , I was literally crying

1:06:09

.

1:06:10

You can hear the tears .

1:06:12

I don't pretend the care level was at high . Oh my gosh

1:06:14

, it was unbelievable the devastation .

1:06:16

I don't pretend , the whole city shrunk To

1:06:19

ever have been in that position .

1:06:21

But if anybody's seen Saving

1:06:24

Private Ryan at the end , whenever

1:06:27

the tank is shooting

1:06:29

, everything and everything goes

1:06:31

quiet and he can't

1:06:33

hear anything . That's what it felt

1:06:35

like .

1:06:37

It was a that's silent .

1:06:38

It was a numbing feeling

1:06:40

of wow , I can't believe

1:06:42

this . That's it . Yeah

1:06:45

, it was . It was surreal , it

1:06:47

really was . It was uh , yeah

1:06:49

, I didn't get pissed off until after

1:06:51

. I was so numb to

1:06:53

start with .

1:06:57

And it just was .

1:06:58

I didn't watch the replay , for I want to

1:07:00

say a good 15 years , Really

1:07:02

Wow . It was

1:07:05

the lowest point of my career

1:07:07

.

1:07:08

And then how about 93 ? How hard was

1:07:10

that ? I mean , I know , it didn't end well . Well , you know what ? And then how about

1:07:12

93 ? How ?

1:07:13

hard , was that ? Yeah , it was very hard .

1:07:14

I mean , I know it was , it didn't end well .

1:07:16

Well you know what being

1:07:19

released on Easter Sunday . No

1:07:22

, yeah , it's a little bit . You

1:07:24

know , they were sending a message , I think .

1:07:26

I was the player rep and

1:07:29

I didn't have too many good

1:07:32

things to say .

1:07:34

Ted Simmons was the general manager Because

1:07:36

93 is right before it all kicked off , right when

1:07:39

it was all kicking off 93?

1:07:41

.

1:07:42

Yeah , with the strike and everything .

1:07:43

It was 94 . 94 was the strike .

1:07:47

But there was rumbling going on .

1:07:49

A lot of it was . You guys were very outspoken

1:07:51

. We had lost , you know , Bonoken we had lost

1:07:53

. Bonilla . We had lost Bonds

1:07:55

, we were losing guys and

1:07:58

they were misrepresenting

1:08:00

their offers in public

1:08:03

. To Doug Drabeck Dougie

1:08:05

and I have been great friends . We've got

1:08:07

to talk about the relationship and so

1:08:09

Dougie and I have been great friends

1:08:11

. So I knew every little

1:08:13

bit of that negotiations and

1:08:16

what the pirates management was

1:08:18

saying to

1:08:20

the public was nowhere near

1:08:22

what they were offering him . And

1:08:24

Dougie was . He's much more of

1:08:26

a professional than I am and

1:08:29

I'm sticking up for my picture , yeah

1:08:31

.

1:08:31

And .

1:08:31

I says you know , this is crap You're , you're

1:08:33

giving this guy a bad name . You know

1:08:35

this guy wants nothing more than to

1:08:37

stay here .

1:08:39

And you're not even coming close . You're making it look like

1:08:41

he wants so much money . Yeah , that he's greedy and

1:08:43

he doesn't want to be in .

1:08:44

Pittsburgh , and that's not fair and that puts

1:08:46

a huge divide in that clubhouse , yeah Between

1:08:48

front office .

1:08:49

So I was outspoken about it and

1:08:51

I believe ultimately that's why they released

1:08:54

me .

1:08:54

Well , something happened because they ended up paying

1:08:56

the balance of that contract too

1:08:58

. So I mean , obviously there

1:09:01

was something about that . It was a message . What

1:09:05

do you mean ? The balance of ?

1:09:05

the contract .

1:09:06

I mean , I had signed a three-year deal and I played

1:09:08

one year on that deal and they released

1:09:10

you . And then the last two years , know

1:09:12

they ?

1:09:13

they basically , uh , ate it

1:09:15

yeah , they're definitely , yeah , yeah

1:09:17

, definitely . So that was you know and

1:09:19

you know it was .

1:09:21

It was very difficult , yeah , you know , because

1:09:23

you know I not only you

1:09:25

know love the organization , you

1:09:28

know , but the city and you know

1:09:30

, really I wanted to end my

1:09:32

career as a pirate you

1:09:34

know .

1:09:34

So it was very , very difficult um

1:09:37

, I was I mean

1:09:39

just ripped at

1:09:41

at ted simon at ted

1:09:43

yeah , and and uh I

1:09:46

saw him about two

1:09:48

years ago , three years ago at cardinal

1:09:50

fantasy camp , had you spoken , and I

1:09:52

hadn't talked to him since no kidding

1:09:54

and and he came to me because you probably want to

1:09:56

kill me , don't you wow ?

1:09:58

I said you're absolutely right and we had

1:10:00

a chat and productive

1:10:02

, and I found out what it was all

1:10:04

about and we hugged no

1:10:06

kidding yeah , I mean I 30 years

1:10:08

later .

1:10:09

Yeah , and it was probably felt good , didn't it

1:10:11

?

1:10:11

yeah , it did . You know it was a burden , um

1:10:14

, and and it's anybody to have

1:10:16

that kind of animosity towards somebody

1:10:18

, it just it's not , it's not good

1:10:20

, yeah , it's not healthy .

1:10:22

So simmons . And so simmons claims it was

1:10:24

not well he was doing . Yeah

1:10:26

, it was basically you know . He was told

1:10:28

.

1:10:28

Yeah , you know and that and that's you

1:10:30

know that was good enough for me , yeah , and you know what that was . You know that was

1:10:32

good enough for me , yeah , and you know what that was . You know something that

1:10:34

you know . I wish I

1:10:36

would have known and handled it better

1:10:39

. But I was a bitter guy to Ted

1:10:41

Simmons , you know , and never saw

1:10:44

him again until said about

1:10:46

three years ago .

1:10:47

Well , not to stir anything up again , but it

1:10:50

was still Simmons who misrepresented

1:10:53

what Drabik wanted . I mean , there's no

1:10:55

doubt about that . Simmons didn't have to do that

1:10:57

. Well , you know what he didn't have to .

1:11:01

There was a lot more

1:11:03

than you know . Ted

1:11:05

was the fall guy but

1:11:08

there was a guy that was the president

1:11:10

of the club Mark Sauer sour that

1:11:12

was calling a lot of shots yeah his last

1:11:14

name says it all , then yeah , so it's

1:11:16

making it . Yeah , that's you know if

1:11:18

he wants to come down spring training , I'll

1:11:20

put the gear on . We'll play at the plate mark

1:11:23

you want I want .

1:11:24

I'm a sour fan . Sour

1:11:26

hired me , so I can't say anything about sour , but

1:11:29

anyway . So you go to the white socks now and you

1:11:31

play for gene lamont , yeah

1:11:33

that was great .

1:11:33

Your third great manager , geno , was

1:11:35

awesome .

1:11:37

Who had been the longtime coach of Jim

1:11:39

Leland .

1:11:39

Yes , different temperament than

1:11:41

Leland , but a great baseball mind . He

1:11:46

was very quiet and he didn't come across

1:11:48

. He

1:11:50

didn't get the credit for being

1:11:52

the baseball guy that he was yeah absolutely

1:11:55

fabulous he was very , very

1:11:57

good , you know , but again , his temperament

1:11:59

well , he wasn't .

1:12:00

He wasn't as good with the media as they wanted him to be

1:12:02

. Yeah , I think right , yeah and

1:12:05

uh that was a very comfortable

1:12:07

feeling .

1:12:07

Yeah , um , but I was . I was

1:12:09

the backup . Catcherarko was the

1:12:12

number one guy , karko .

1:12:13

Weiss so .

1:12:14

I played once a week , once every

1:12:16

couple weeks , which was , you

1:12:18

know I didn't like

1:12:20

it , but it is what

1:12:22

it was . Yeah , and I tried to do my best you

1:12:25

know to whenever I get in there , just

1:12:27

be your best .

1:12:27

Yeah , try to win that ballgame . Yeah , and you

1:12:30

have a good baseball mind I mean a great baseball

1:12:32

mind in my , in my opinion , and I learned

1:12:34

a lot from you as a young buck and continue to learn . But

1:12:36

, like , did you spend a lot of time with those guys

1:12:38

as a kid ? Like I took a lot of pride in trying

1:12:40

to be around the race here , just of the world

1:12:43

that , uh , jeff bannister's clint

1:12:45

hurdles and I'd be , especially when I didn't

1:12:47

play . I try to be as close to him as possible

1:12:49

, hear kind of what's going on , play the game

1:12:51

of my mind with them . I feel like you did a lot of that .

1:12:53

Well , that's a you know whenever I went over to the white spots

1:12:55

you know , I hadn't caught any of the guys , the

1:12:58

talent . I mean jack

1:13:00

mcdowell , alex fernandez , jason

1:13:02

beret , wilson alvarez

1:13:04

holy .

1:13:05

I mean , these are just . I didn't know

1:13:07

that this is , you know .

1:13:08

First , time that I was able to

1:13:11

, you know , basically put a one down without

1:13:13

crossing my fingers . Here you go Give

1:13:17

me your best fastball , because every one of those

1:13:19

guys had legit cheese

1:13:21

Like thunder , yeah , so . I mean , but

1:13:24

it was spent a lot of

1:13:26

time back in the day . We spent a lot

1:13:28

of time in the locker room together , talking

1:13:30

before , after , I

1:13:32

mean with the white socks , and

1:13:35

we were cigar smokers . So

1:13:37

before , like after batting practice , we'd

1:13:40

light up in the locker room right and

1:13:42

then all of a sudden be like infield 10 minutes

1:13:44

. Ah crap , put out your cigar well

1:13:46

, take infield , isn't that beautiful ? Yeah , so I mean you

1:13:48

know and then after the game was the same

1:13:50

kind of thing you know . But I get to know

1:13:52

and I think that's a big part of it is

1:13:56

your relationship with your pitching staff

1:13:58

, because when those guys know that

1:14:00

you care , they're going to give you everything

1:14:02

and that's a big thing . If

1:14:05

they think that you don't care and you're

1:14:07

only thinking about your stats

1:14:09

, your offense , then they're going to

1:14:11

kind of not give it the best , yeah

1:14:13

, not get the best out of it . But I , you

1:14:15

know , I felt that you know , the next

1:14:18

day in the paper , never

1:14:20

had an L , lost LaValliere

1:14:22

, but I felt like I was part

1:14:24

of that . You know , if we get the L

1:14:26

, I was part of that and

1:14:28

I think I came across

1:14:31

to my pitching staffs like

1:14:33

they knew that . And that's where you

1:14:36

know , building that , you know

1:14:38

, that kind of trust , you know , was a

1:14:40

huge , huge thing .

1:14:43

How about your relationship with Bob Walk ?

1:14:45

Yeah , and I want to talk about the call from the

1:14:47

booth .

1:14:49

Explain because Walkie loves to tell the story . Okay , so .

1:14:51

I've got more Walkie

1:14:53

stories , stories , I'm sure . Um , we

1:14:55

are here to hear them , yeah , so , uh , back

1:14:57

in 89 , whenever I was hurt

1:14:59

, um , I used to sit

1:15:02

up on the fourth level and , um

1:15:04

, maybe drink beer and maybe

1:15:06

eat hot dogs .

1:15:07

Uh , nothing confirmed . Nothing confirmed , yeah

1:15:09

, um , maybe not confirmed , maybe not

1:15:12

.

1:15:12

But uh , you know , I told walkie I says

1:15:14

it's amazing because you sit up there , you

1:15:16

see the whole field , you know from up there

1:15:18

what a great vantage point . I

1:15:20

says you know , walkie , if you ever get stuck

1:15:22

, look up there , right , just

1:15:25

look up there . So kevin

1:15:27

mitchell's up at the plate and

1:15:29

walkie throws him a curveball . He hits

1:15:31

it nine miles foul

1:15:34

at three rivers Right . And

1:15:36

so Waukee's on the mound and he's like this and

1:15:38

there's like the light bulb went off .

1:15:41

And he looks up , he remembers Wait a minute , spanky's

1:15:43

up there .

1:15:44

I about fall out of the booth

1:15:47

. I'm yelling hook him again

1:15:49

, hook him again . He

1:15:51

hooks him again . He pops it up , waukee

1:15:54

walks off and gets his cap . That is

1:15:56

the greatest thing of all time , I

1:15:59

guess .

1:15:59

I get it . He realizes

1:16:02

he's all bummed out , doesn't know what to do . Uh-oh

1:16:05

, lavalliere's up there spanking . Could

1:16:07

you imagine him just going ? Yeah , his

1:16:09

head was down and you could see , because when Wacky fought a lot smoke

1:16:11

yeah , it was exactly like that His head was down .

1:16:13

And you could see the wheels just spinning , because

1:16:15

when Wacky fought , a lot smoke

1:16:17

came out of his ears , so it was

1:16:19

smoking . That still

1:16:21

happens and I'm going . Oh my God , I

1:16:24

can help him here . I know I can and just

1:16:26

like that he looked up and I just

1:16:28

like I may have spilled a

1:16:30

hot dog , but

1:16:32

I fell out and

1:16:35

whenever , just like I may have spilled a hundred but I felt , fell out and and whenever you did it

1:16:37

, oh my god it was , it was one of the greatest moments . That's so

1:16:39

tremendous so much fun . Oh

1:16:44

my gosh , what a blast

1:16:46

, yeah , I'll tell you what yeah so much

1:16:48

fun . One of many

1:16:50

, oh , whirlybird stories we

1:16:53

Whirlybird .

1:16:53

We have to have another show with Spanky just talking Whirlybird

1:16:55

stories .

1:16:56

I'll get me and Walkie together and Drebeck .

1:16:58

Oh yeah , and Drebeck , that's what we're going to do .

1:17:01

Yeah , him and Drebeck at Fantasy Camp are

1:17:03

like two legends walking around . Yes , they're

1:17:05

still going out . When ?

1:17:06

Walkie comes down . We've going

1:17:08

to be coming back last week . We're going

1:17:10

to have you down .

1:17:11

You two just spin tails well

1:17:13

, I'll check my social schedule yeah , yeah

1:17:15

, you might be .

1:17:16

Uh , you're traveling around the world these days . You are a world

1:17:18

traveler . Yeah , well , you know what ?

1:17:20

not getting any younger , yeah , yeah

1:17:23

, so welcome to the club if I don't go now . Yeah

1:17:26

, understand , you know what the wheelchairs

1:17:28

just don't go really good on the beach , so

1:17:30

so thank you Enjoy

1:17:32

while I can .

1:17:33

Spanky . You said when you sat down

1:17:35

here with us so many people have said

1:17:37

your favorite podcast and you are a podcast

1:17:40

aficionado . One of the first things

1:17:42

he said was my

1:17:48

favorite podcast is Hold .

1:17:49

My , he was going like this Especially catchers , catchers and pitchers Hold my Cutter

1:17:51

.

1:17:51

They love Hold my Cutter .

1:17:53

You know . So , yeah , I got to show up . I

1:17:55

got stogies , I got the torch

1:17:57

, you got the torch , we got the catchers

1:17:59

.

1:18:01

You set the setup . I mean you know what Anesthesia

1:18:03

.

1:18:03

Anesthesia . This

1:18:06

podcast was made for me and you

1:18:08

Best , cutter you ever caught

1:18:10

real quick . Alex

1:18:12

Fernandez oh nice , it

1:18:16

actually had noise . It screamed , it

1:18:18

said noise . Yeah

1:18:22

, it was , it had

1:18:25

noise , it was devastating . But

1:18:27

the best one I've seen was Mariano

1:18:29

. Yeah , because we

1:18:31

get a report right and this

1:18:33

is his rookie year and he comes up

1:18:35

in September and at the time he was starving

1:18:38

Right , and so we get the report

1:18:40

. You know sinker slider guy All

1:18:43

right . So Tim Raines first , that

1:18:45

bat comes back . He's got about

1:18:48

eight inches of his handle left after

1:18:50

he snaps . It's now a pencil

1:18:52

Right . Joey Corr is up next . He's

1:18:55

got less , and

1:18:57

joey being the fired up little guy , yeah

1:18:59

, yeah , and he goes sinker slayer

1:19:01

, my ass , this

1:19:04

guy's got a cutter from hell . Right , tell

1:19:07

that scout that he can . Yeah , he

1:19:09

needs a new job . But yeah

1:19:12

, alex

1:19:14

Fernandez , stuff-wise

1:19:16

I love Dougie and

1:19:19

Dougie had great stuff , but

1:19:21

for pure four pitches

1:19:23

Alex was one

1:19:25

of the best .

1:19:26

I'm surprised that he never got a sigh

1:19:28

.

1:19:28

Yeah Well , heck

1:19:30

man , we're going to give you an

1:19:32

MVP for one of the top guests on

1:19:34

Hold my Cutter Cheers Legend .

1:19:36

Fellas , he's a cutter Always available .

1:19:38

Make sure Spanky always tells us , make sure

1:19:40

you tell your viewers , your listeners

1:19:42

, like and subscribe and

1:19:45

send the questions on

1:19:47

anything To Spanky

1:19:49

. To Spanky .

1:19:51

Yes , I'm single ladies

1:19:54

out there , oh there you

1:19:56

go .

1:19:58

It's called a plug , that's a plug . Go get

1:20:00

spanky . Yeah , the plug didn't take hold

1:20:04

my cutter , thank you .