0:00

Here's the thing. I agree, George. I mean, I think that we

0:01

ought to be building for a standard we haven't seen yet.

0:05

Right? I mean, if we're truly focused on, you

0:05

know, building resilient communities,

0:09

then we have to build to a standard

0:09

that's higher than what Mother

0:12

Nature's currently throwing at us. In some cases, politics and

0:14

lobbying, big lobbying money gets

0:17

in the way of doing what's right. You know, there's a big argument

0:19

that, you know, building higher, you

0:21

know, building to higher standards

0:21

increases construction costs.

0:24

Well, it might. But is it more than the amount of

0:26

money we've been spending as a country

0:29

to fix, you know, communities from

0:29

all these storms and wildfires?

0:32

I would highly doubt it. I, I'd love to hold the hand of people

0:34

that believe that building, you know,

0:37

building codes is too expensive. You know, to hire

0:38

standards is too expensive. I'll take 'em by the hand and

0:40

walk 'em through some of these

0:42

devastated communities and

0:42

ask 'em what's more expensive.

0:45

I'm George Siegal,

0:45

and this is the Tell Us How to Make.

0:48

It Better podcast. Every week we introduce you to people

0:49

who are working on real world problems

0:53

and providing actual solutions.

0:56

Tell Us How to Make it Better is

0:56

partnering with The Readiness Lab,

1:00

the home for podcasts webinars

1:00

and training in the field of

1:03

emergency and disaster services.

1:05

Hi everybody. Thank you so much for joining

1:06

me on this week's Tell Us How

1:08

to Make It Better podcast. As a little time has gone by now since

1:10

Hurricane Ian hit, we're seeing the

1:15

horrific images and stories that have

1:15

come out of Southwest Florida and how

1:19

people's lives are changed forever. What's interesting to me is what will

1:21

that do to places like where I live,

1:26

Tampa, Florida, where we were forecast to

1:26

get that storm for much of the duration.

1:33

and then it ended up turning and going south. So what will change in our area that

1:35

will either have people more prepared

1:40

or have them evacuate and make sure

1:40

they have insurance and all the things

1:43

they need to do if a disaster hits

1:43

because our area is pegged to be worse.

1:48

If that kind of storm hit, then

1:48

what happened in Southwest Florida?

1:51

It's our doomsday scenario here. So that's one of the things I want

1:54

to talk about with my guest today.

1:57

Who is the former administrator of fema?

2:00

We interviewed him in my documentary

2:00

film, The Last House Standing.

2:04

We were able to get into FEMA and talk

2:04

to, to Brock Long, and it was a great

2:08

interview then, and he has a lot of

2:08

great information to share with us today.

2:11

My guest today is Brock Long, executive

2:11

Chairman at Haggerty Consulting and

2:15

the former administrator at FEMA Brock,

2:15

thank you so much for your time today.

2:19

George, it's good to be back with you. And I appreciate your work to

2:21

try to help people understand how

2:23

to build resilient communities. Thanks. Thanks for letting me be here.

2:27

I'm glad to have you. Now let's talk about Ian and, and the

2:28

images that you're seeing coming out

2:31

of there, the videos and everything. It's just, you know, you say you

2:32

wanna use terms like unimaginable.

2:36

It is to see this. What are your thoughts so far?

2:38

You know, hurricane Ian unfortunately is probably gonna be the most costly disaster, if

2:40

not one of the most deadly already

2:45

that the state of Florida has seen. And it's, you know, in its history.

2:48

This is the storm that we

2:48

caution everybody about.

2:50

It's the one that we've gotta

2:50

get better when it comes to

2:53

designing resilient communities

2:53

along the coast and the future.

2:56

And you know, it's a reminder that

2:56

none of these hurricanes are alike.

3:00

They're all different, They all attack differently. There is no category force, you

3:02

know, hurricane that's the same.

3:06

And the vulnerabilities are different

3:06

based upon where they make landfall.

3:10

And we've got a lot of work

3:10

to do to educate the public

3:14

about how to be prepared. I think some laws have to change and

3:15

some incentives have to be put into

3:19

place to increase building codes and

3:19

land use planning along, you know, in

3:22

areas that are vulnerable, not only

3:22

to hurricanes, but maybe wildfires,

3:25

you know, and, and floods, you know? So we got a lot of work.

3:28

George, you gotta keep up the good

3:28

work of getting the message out.

3:31

Now, as you know

3:31

firsthand from your time at

3:34

FEMA, the finger pointing always

3:34

starts right after a disaster.

3:37

Who's a who? How did this happen? Who's to blame?

3:40

There's a meteorologist that I really

3:40

like to follow, Brian Norcross and I read

3:43

an article that, that he wrote about the

3:43

cone and how this storm was in the cone.

3:49

It was the far right side of the cone,

3:49

but it's when do people evacuate?

3:53

When do they say, I'm not gonna be safe?

3:56

That's a tough call for people and

3:56

I live in Tampa and I, so I know we

4:00

didn't evacuate, and now that I've

4:00

seen what happened In that area.

4:04

I'm going we, we might have been wiped out here.

4:07

So George, you know, listen

4:07

as a former FEMA administrator let's

4:10

just say I have been the bull fighter

4:10

in the arena and received all the

4:14

criticisms, criticism in the world. And you know, America's gotta stop

4:16

blaming a single point of failure

4:20

for all the problems that are going

4:20

that, that hurricane Ian provided us.

4:24

We're all at fault. You know, we, we all have to get better.

4:26

We all have to figure out what

4:26

our part is to become resilient.

4:30

And when it comes to an evacuation,

4:30

I think a lot of people don't

4:32

realize that the main reason you

4:32

evacuate is because of the, the

4:36

storm surge hazard that's associated

4:36

with major landfall and hurricanes.

4:40

You know, the key is get the people out

4:40

of the areas that are gonna flood and into

4:43

facilities that can withstand the winds. Right.

4:46

And in this case, Ian was a lesson about

4:46

storm surge and we continued to not learn

4:51

that lesson historically, even though

4:51

hundreds of people die on a regular

4:56

basis from from storm surge events. And here's the thing I've always said,

4:58

unfortunately, you know, while storm

5:01

surge is the hazard associated with

5:01

hurricanes that can kill the most amount

5:05

of people and has the highest potential

5:05

to cause the most amount of damage.

5:08

It's also the unforgiving hazard, George.

5:10

So what I mean by that is, is a lot of

5:10

people that experience 12, 15, 18 feet of

5:15

storm surge don't live to talk about it. So we lose that, We lose that story.

5:20

It's unlike, you know, people

5:20

who experienced tornadoes going

5:23

to ground and, and can describe

5:23

what the wind sounded like.

5:26

That doesn't happen here. So what I'm really afraid of, George

5:27

is five, 10 years from now, people

5:32

will forget, you know, forget why

5:32

people lost their lives in Ian.

5:36

And when it comes to the evacuation

5:36

piece it's not one person that's

5:39

responsible for issuing an evacuation.

5:41

And these storm surge, you know,

5:41

these hurricane forecasts are,

5:45

are uncertain in many cases. If you look at Hurricane Ian's

5:47

track forecast, it fluctuated

5:51

between Southwest Florida and

5:51

all the way up to Appalachiacola.

5:55

Hundreds of miles of coastline over

5:55

a five day period and back, back and

5:58

forth and you know, it's You know

5:58

what, it's not an exact science.

6:02

If it was an exact science, it would

6:02

make things a lot easier, George.

6:06

But it, but in this case, this

6:06

forecast fluctuated you know, several

6:10

hundred miles, north and south, up and

6:10

down the coastline, and it presents

6:14

a lot of challenges as a result.

6:16

Yeah. You know, there was, I read a story

6:17

this morning of four women who were

6:20

visiting Fort Myers, and they were

6:20

trapped in a structure that was flooding.

6:23

One of them was killed by a nail

6:23

in the roof as the water filled up.

6:27

I think, I believe the other three got out. We'll probably be hearing more

6:29

about this in the coming days.

6:32

But a lot of times when people are told

6:32

to evacuate, and I see this in every

6:36

place that I've ever lived, they don't go. So it's easy to blame people,

6:39

people ultimately, it's personal

6:42

responsibility, but people need to

6:42

understand you're not getting away

6:46

with a, a storm surge if you're not in

6:46

a really high building or safe area.

6:51

I think too, you know, one of the, one of

6:52

the interesting You know, pieces

6:54

of information that's lacking

6:54

here is how many people have

6:56

moved to Southwest Florida since

6:56

Hurricane Charlie hit in 2004.

7:00

Right? And, you know, we're

7:01

blindly buying property.

7:03

We're blind, we're blindly buying homes

7:03

without understanding the hazards that are

7:08

associated with the geographical location

7:08

of our dwellings and how to be, you know,

7:12

properly you know, properly prepared.

7:14

The other aspect of this is that

7:14

hurricanes are defined by wind

7:17

intensity and not by storm surge threat.

7:19

And so a lot of people will

7:19

think, Well, I've bought a house.

7:23

It's, you know, it can withstand the

7:23

winds, but they're not thinking about

7:26

whether or not it's properly elevated

7:26

or where it is along, you know, the,

7:29

the storm surge vulnerable areas and

7:29

you know, so there's a lot of education

7:32

when it comes to buying a home and

7:32

preparing for it, but you're right.

7:36

For whatever reason, historically,

7:36

if you look at some of the past FEMA

7:39

hurricane evacuation studies, you know,

7:39

when you ask a hundred thousand people

7:43

to evacuate an area you know, you might

7:43

get an 85 to 90% participation rate,

7:49

which, which means, you know, 10 or 15%. That's a lot of people that stay

7:51

behind for whatever reasons and

7:55

make their own educated guess. And it, it, it end up, you know, costing

7:56

them their lives or, you know, or, or

8:01

injuries or what, whatever it may be.

8:03

And what's the responsibility of government in a place like Sanibel Island, which

8:04

is completely isolated right now.

8:09

I know they're gonna rebuild that

8:09

bridge, but that relied almost

8:13

completely on tourism and the

8:13

people had summer homes there.

8:16

But it seems like that it's so

8:16

different from Mexico Beach.

8:21

Do they rebuild it? Do they just put, give it back to nature?

8:24

What do you do in a situation like that?

8:26

You know, that's been the debate

8:27

in emergency management.

8:29

I, I'm not gonna speak

8:29

for Sanibel off the bat.

8:31

I mean, you know, they've gotta

8:31

do what's right for Sanibel.

8:33

But here's the thing. As a nation, when we go through major

8:34

wildfires, when we go through major

8:38

floods, when we go through hurricanes,

8:38

if we don't build it correctly,

8:41

mother nature's gonna work it out

8:41

eventually, whether we like it or not.

8:44

And You know, the thing is, is, you

8:44

know, one of the things that I've been

8:47

really pondering to George is that

8:47

NASA, you know, a couple weeks ago,

8:51

flew a satellite into an astroid seven

8:51

mile, you know, 7 million miles away.

8:57

They have the technology and

8:57

the expertise to do that.

8:59

Why do we not have the ability or the,

8:59

the grit and the wherewithal to build

9:05

properly in areas that are vulnerable

9:05

to various different types of hazards?

9:09

, I mean, maybe that's not a

9:09

good analogy, but that's what's

9:11

been going through my mind. And when communities do rebuild, they've

9:13

gotta rebuild to the high standards.

9:18

And one of the concerns that I have,

9:18

George, is that, you know, over the

9:22

last couple years during the covid, you

9:22

know, as interest rates are really low,

9:26

During the Covid years, more homes got

9:26

built in the United States than ever

9:30

before, according to some studies to

9:30

the minimum standards of every state.

9:35

So don't talk to me about being

9:35

resilient if we're gonna allow that

9:40

type of construction and building to

9:40

continue knowing that disasters may be

9:45

becoming more frequent and more intense.

9:49

Well, Mexico Beach to me is a great example

9:49

of what you're talking about.

9:52

That's when I first met you and they

9:52

rebuilt to 140 mile an hour winds.

9:57

They got hit by a category five

9:57

hurricane, so they're not even rebuilding

10:01

to the standard that would survive

10:01

the next category five hurricane.

10:05

I don't understand the thinking with that.

10:07

And, you know, here's the thing. I agree, George.

10:09

I mean, I think that we ought

10:09

to be building for a standard

10:12

we haven't seen yet, right? I mean, if we're truly focused on, you

10:13

know, building resilient communities,

10:18

then we have to build to a standard

10:18

that's higher than what Mother

10:21

Nature's currently throwing at us. In some cases, politics and

10:23

lobbying, big lobbying money gets

10:26

in the way of doing what's right. You know, there's a big argument

10:27

that, you know, building higher, you

10:30

know, building to higher standards

10:30

increases construction costs.

10:33

Well, it might. But is it more than the amount of

10:34

money we've been spending as a country

10:38

to fix, you know, communities from

10:38

all these storms and wildfires?

10:41

I would highly doubt it. I, I'd love to hold the hand of people

10:42

that believe that building, you know,

10:45

building codes is too expensive, You

10:45

know, to hire standards is too expensive.

10:49

I'll take 'em by the hand and

10:49

walk 'em through some of these

10:51

devastated communities and

10:51

ask 'em what's more expensive?

10:54

You know, putting a little bit more money up front. But here's the thing.

10:57

Why does the appraisal industry in

10:57

this country not valuate homes that are

11:01

mitigated, like the one that you featured

11:01

in your movie Last House Standing?

11:05

Why is that home not valuated higher than

11:05

the home right next to it that's a similar

11:11

square footage, same location, right?

11:13

Has the appraisal industry, you know,

11:13

really been educated to look for

11:17

mitigation techniques in homes that

11:17

would make that home more attractive

11:21

and valuable than the home beside it that hasn't been mitigated.

11:25

Why does the realtor industry, you know,

11:25

not also start to promote mitigated homes

11:30

over homes that haven't been mitigated? And so there's a lot of education

11:32

that's got to take place in

11:35

these different industries. And I think that change has

11:36

gotta be a grassroots thing.

11:39

It can't just come from the federal government saying build to a higher standard.

11:42

It's also got to be these industries

11:42

demanding higher quality construction

11:46

in areas that we know are vulnereable.

11:49

Yeah, the frustrating thing to look at is I think that if builders just took the charge

11:51

and said, We're only building safe

11:54

homes, they could solve this problem. It's like they have the cure for a lot

11:56

of these problems, but when I talk to

12:00

them, they say, We're not gonna spend

12:00

the money if we don't know that they're

12:02

gonna pay for it on the consumer end. So it doesn't it, it doesn't seem to

12:04

get solved, which is pretty frustrating.

12:07

Which brings me to the, the place

12:07

that was supposed to be the bullseye

12:11

where I live Tampa, Florida. And for days in advance,

12:13

they were talking about it.

12:16

And that is the doomsday scenario

12:16

direction for a storm here, they

12:19

estimate 400 billion in damage to

12:19

this area it would be staggering.

12:25

60% of the businesses in

12:25

Hillsborough County would've been

12:27

wiped out 70% in Pinellas County.

12:30

Sure. Yet, I don't think it's

12:30

gonna change anything.

12:32

I mean, I think people want to be

12:32

prepared for after the disaster,

12:36

but they don't do the work up front.

12:38

And sadly, it's like

12:38

I said, I think this country

12:41

suffers from hurricane amnesia. You know, five, 10 years from now, people

12:42

aren't gonna be talking about hurricane

12:46

Ian, they're gonna be talking about

12:46

the next storm that comes and, but,

12:49

but the Tampa Bay area is one of FEMA's

12:49

catastrophic planning initiative areas.

12:53

There's a lot of catastrophic planning

12:53

initiatives that were taking place

12:57

over the last decade in Tampa. Tampa Bay is one of 'em because of

12:59

the storm surge vulnerable issues

13:03

that, that that are presented there. And the continental shelf is so

13:04

shallow there that the storm surge

13:08

vulnerability is great because of that.

13:11

So essentially what I'm saying is,

13:11

is that you can go 50 miles offshore.

13:15

It's still pretty shallow, which is

13:15

why storm surge is such a big problem.

13:19

And you know, Tampa Bay is that area

13:19

is very lucky, but you better, you

13:24

know, You better understand that if

13:24

you choose to live there, George, like

13:29

you do, you better be ready for it. Understand your storm surge vulnerability.

13:32

Understand what mitigation techniques

13:32

you can put into your house over

13:35

time and, and in some cases, does it

13:35

make sense to live there and retire

13:39

there?

13:40

Well, in talking to

13:40

friends and neighbors, I get the

13:43

impression that it's already in some

13:43

people's rear view mirror by now.

13:47

Sure. You look down to the south

13:48

and you go, Wow, that really

13:51

is horrible for those people. And a lot of people here are

13:52

giving a lot of money and trying

13:54

to help them get back to somewhat

13:54

of a normal life down the road.

13:58

But I don't know that it's changing that much here. Are people getting generators?

14:02

Are they going to have a

14:02

better evacuation plan?

14:04

Do they really understand where

14:04

they live and what their risks are?

14:08

Doesn't seem like that's gonna happen.

14:10

Yeah, and I do believe

14:10

that, you know, from a, from an asset

14:15

poverty angle, it is you know, it's

14:15

a tough ask to tell people to be

14:19

prepared for three to five days or

14:19

spend, you know, 10,000, $15,000 on

14:24

their house to, for simple mitigation

14:24

techniques or to buy a generator.

14:27

It's a tough ask. You know, and that's,

14:28

that's all part of it.

14:30

You know, the other thing that we saw

14:30

with the hurricane Ian forecast where you

14:34

know, at one point it's Southwest Florida.

14:37

The next point it's at Appalachiacola,

14:37

and then eventually it works its

14:40

way back to southwest Florida. Over a five day period, a lot of the

14:41

media attention was on the Tampa area.

14:45

And I think when citizens see

14:45

where the media attention is, they

14:48

tend to breathe a sigh of relief. And you know, they do.

14:51

So not knowing that they're actually

14:51

still very vulnerable to the, the

14:55

uncertainties of those hurricane

14:55

track forecast and intensity

14:58

forecast.

15:00

Now what I've seen in

15:00

the past also is after a storm like

15:02

this, now the next time the evacuation

15:02

order's probably gonna be issued

15:05

in a lot of places where people are

15:05

gonna evacuate that didn't need to.

15:09

And so maybe that time now, all

15:09

those people are gonna be angry.

15:12

So then the next time the

15:12

evacuation order's given they're

15:14

not gonna leave, it's, I don't

15:14

know how you win that battle?

15:18

We saw that with Hurricane Irma. You know, a lot of people were

15:19

placed under evacuation orders

15:21

and thankfully they weren't hit. But then they were frustrated by

15:23

that, George, you know, why were

15:25

we asked to, you know, we evacuated

15:25

and not a single thing happened.

15:28

Well, they don't understand all the

15:28

uncertainties that go along with track

15:31

forecasting and intensity forecasting.

15:34

They don't understand storm surge

15:34

forecasting, you know, based on how the

15:38

winds impact or attack the coastline.

15:41

And they get frustrated by that. They go back and they

15:43

say, Well, you know what? I'm gonna wait the next one out.

15:46

And you know, and then, and then where,

15:46

you know, you, you have this other thing

15:50

where people have experienced hurricanes

15:50

in different parts of the country.

15:53

But when they move to, you

15:53

know, then they, they, they're

15:56

under the gun for the next one. They don't realize that each

15:58

hurricane is unique and different.

16:01

You know, they attack differently. But I don't know, George, you know, I'm

16:02

looking for great ideas to, to continue

16:05

to try to save lives because you know,

16:05

for whatever reason in the emergency

16:09

management community, we have not been

16:09

successful in being able to create a

16:13

true culture preparedness within America.

16:16

Now you talk

16:16

about NASA deflecting asteroids.

16:19

When you talk about 400 billion worth of

16:19

damage to an area, if you said, Okay, we

16:23

could take a hundred billion and build

16:23

a big canal lock that will close and

16:28

stop storm surge, is that preposterous?

16:30

Is that something that's so

16:30

out of the realm of reality

16:32

that it would never happen?

16:33

I. You know, I think mitigation can start,

16:34

you know, more simply than, you know,

16:37

in, in a more simple fashion than that. You know, one, it starts with

16:39

land use planning, you know, why

16:42

are we building in these areas? And if we do build in those areas,

16:44

what is the code standard for

16:47

residential codes and building codes? You know, are you properly insured?

16:52

You know, you know, there, there's ways

16:52

of doing it without building, you know,

16:56

massive infrastructure to guard, storm

16:56

surge, you know, those types of things.

17:00

I think you start simple

17:00

and build your way up.

17:02

But, but then it's also an

17:02

education piece, George.

17:05

It's like we were talking, why does the

17:05

appraisal industry not know how to look

17:07

for mitigated homes over homes that aren't

17:07

mitigated in areas that are vulnerable

17:12

to hurricanes or wildfires or floods?

17:14

Right. So it's education, it's infrastructure,

17:15

it's building things correctly.

17:19

It's You know, it's learning how

17:19

to live with Mother Nature and

17:21

it's building to a standard that's

17:21

higher than what we've seen so far.

17:24

If we know that it's gonna become

17:24

more intense in the future.

17:27

Now, less than half a mile from my house there,

17:28

there's a waterfront where they

17:31

build new houses, they tear down the

17:31

old ones and they put up new ones.

17:34

Some people put up houses

17:34

with wood on the second floor.

17:37

They're all elevated. The new ones at least 10 or 11

17:38

feet, but there's one that they

17:42

put in probably 50 steel beams that

17:42

went down deep into the ground.

17:45

They're, everything is concrete. Everything is steel.

17:48

There's no wood on this house. Is is that overdoing it?

17:52

That house will be standing

17:52

no matter what happens.

17:55

But to, to survive storm

17:55

surge, you gotta do something.

17:58

Yep. And I don't think there is any, There,

17:58

there, there is no such thing as

18:01

overdoing it when it comes to mitigation.

18:03

Particularly if we're not sure what

18:03

the cert, you know, if, if the future's

18:07

uncertain about how these hazards are

18:07

gonna change or become more intense.

18:10

Right. You know, the, the, the current level

18:10

of codes in our country is not working.

18:13

We, we know that we've seen

18:13

multibillion dollar disaster after

18:16

multibillion dollar disaster. The other thing that's gotta keep

18:19

up with not only the dwellings

18:21

is the infrastructure and how

18:21

we rebuild new infrastructure.

18:24

You know, let's not put those

18:24

bridges back up to the same standard

18:26

that, that supported these islands. Let's you know, let's rethink that too.

18:30

And, you know, you might have the

18:30

last house standing, but there's

18:33

no water structure to support

18:33

you, you living there either.

18:37

There's no roadway system, there's no

18:37

water infrastructure, sewer system.

18:41

So it, you know, it's, it's you know,

18:41

it's a total, it's a total rebuild in

18:45

some cases to a much higher standard.

18:47

Oh, sure. We have some head scratcher things here. Tampa General Hospital is on Davis

18:49

Islands, which has one bridge going to

18:53

it, but it's a huge hospital in this area. That bridge would get washed

18:55

out by a 20 foot storm surge.

18:58

Well, and if you look at

18:58

Hurricane Irma George, look at where

19:01

a lot of deaths occurred in rest area. You know, in assisted living facilities,

19:03

Why are assisted living facilities

19:07

allowed to be built in CAT 1, 2, 3,

19:07

storm surge, vulnerable areas, you know,

19:12

because evacuating people can kill.

19:14

And you know, and so there's, there's got

19:14

to be, we gotta think about how we build,

19:18

you know, the hospital infrastructure of

19:18

the future, but also why are we allowing

19:22

certain types of facilities to be built

19:22

where built, if they've, you know, if it

19:28

could be, if evacuation could be dangerous

19:30

to them.

19:31

We have another island

19:31

right next to Davis Islands called

19:33

Harbor Island that has two bridges.

19:35

But all their utilities are in the ground. But they were shutting the power

19:37

off for this storm because they

19:40

didn't want salt water to get in it. Don't you think of that when you

19:42

put it in the ground on an island?

19:45

On a bay? I mean, it just makes

19:46

me wanna smack my head.

19:48

It's like, yeah,

19:48

well I can tell you this.

19:51

The George, we, we talked about

19:51

this before, you know, previously

19:54

serving as FEMA administrator. I think I went through

19:56

220 events in two years.

19:58

That's declared disasters in wildfires. I mean, literally a new event every

20:00

three days if you think about it.

20:04

And you know, people wanna

20:04

place a lot of blame on fema.

20:07

Why is this happening? Why is that happening? But FEMA's not in control of

20:09

the destiny of many communities.

20:12

They really aren't. I think some things have to change.

20:15

I think the disaster laws that

20:15

guide what FEMA can do such as the

20:18

Stafford Act, have to be redesigned

20:18

by Congress to provide incentives to

20:22

communities for doing the right thing. You know, the whole entire

20:25

disaster declaration process, in my

20:27

opinion, is a moral hazard, George. And what I mean by that is, is that

20:29

after a disaster, One of the things

20:34

that emergency managers go look for is

20:34

uninsured public infrastructure losses,

20:39

uninsured public infrastructure losses.

20:41

Those dollar amounts will help them to

20:41

qualify for federal disaster declaration.

20:47

There's no incentive to insure the

20:47

infrastructure or build it correctly.

20:51

So what if the law was rewritten to

20:51

say those who pass higher building

20:56

codes, residential codes, proper land

20:56

use planning, and are properly insured,

21:00

have greater access to Department

21:00

of Education grants, Department

21:03

of Commerce Grants, Department of

21:03

Transportation grants, What if incentives?

21:08

Were actually built into the law

21:08

because right now they don't exist.

21:11

And so as a former FEMA administrator

21:11

to me, I'm glad we're having the

21:16

conversation about resilience. But it's also a little bit

21:18

laughable that we're having a

21:20

conversation about resilience. But yet the whole entire disaster

21:22

declaration process is a moral hazard

21:26

that's got to be restructured to fit

21:26

that art, you know, to fit that debate.

21:29

Right.

21:30

Well, why would

21:30

somebody be against doing that?

21:32

I know I'm asking preaching to the choir

21:32

here, but why would you not wanna fix

21:36

that?

21:37

It may stifle development

21:37

in your community, George.

21:40

It may it may not allow you to You

21:40

know, look at it, look at the grants

21:44

that are provided for economic growth

21:44

in communities, George you know, so

21:49

what's the right balance of growth? How big do these communities need to be?

21:53

, you know you know, the, the

21:53

resilience discussion and debate.

21:57

It's multifaceted and it's far

21:57

greater than What's FEMA doing to

22:01

prevent these things in the future? Honestly, I think FEMA's on a path

22:03

where their business model is broken.

22:07

You know, the, the business model is broken. Their mission has grown you know,

22:09

incredibly, and they're not gonna be able

22:14

to keep their head above water unless

22:14

the laws and the incentives are changed.

22:18

When you look back at

22:18

your experience there, do you, is it

22:20

a good memory or is it a nightmare?

22:24

You know, that's a great question. You know, I'm still trying

22:25

to get my head right. George after being FEMA administrator.

22:30

I love the people inside that agency. They're dedicated people.

22:33

They truly are golden hearted. But would I wanna go back and lead FEMA?

22:36

I wouldn't . You know, I, I think. The deck is stacked against the

22:38

agency and you know, they don't

22:41

really have the emergency management

22:41

community doesn't have a strong lobby.

22:45

And anytime events like this occur,

22:45

I can guarantee you that people are

22:48

gonna say we need a bigger FEMA. But bigger FEMA's not the answer.

22:52

George. We've tried bigger FEMA

22:53

after Andrew in 92.

22:56

We tried bigger FEMA

22:56

after Katrina in 2005.

22:59

We wanted a bigger FEMA

22:59

after Sandy hit New York.

23:01

We need a bigger FEMA George

23:01

after Maria in Puerto Rico.

23:07

Well, if we keep doing that and

23:07

it's not really helping things,

23:10

bigger FEMA is not the answer it. This is a partnership at all levels from

23:12

a, the, the properly prepared and educated

23:16

citizen about hazards and what they've

23:16

gotta do to become more resilient all the

23:20

way to the federal government finally,

23:20

providing incentives to communities

23:23

that are doing the right thing, right?

23:26

You know, and, and for example, like

23:26

the equity debate right now one of the

23:29

things that I'd like Congress to allow

23:29

FEMA to do is, is allow communities

23:34

who are depressed, you know, depressed

23:34

communities to apply for FEMA mitigation

23:38

funds to help offset homeowners insurance

23:38

in areas where people can't get ahead,

23:43

you know, you know mitigation is not just

23:43

about structural mitigation, it's also

23:48

societal vulnerability mitigation.

23:50

Right? And I don't believe that the federal

23:50

government should pay for everybody's

23:53

homeowner's insurance indefinitely,

23:53

but there should be a graduating scale

23:56

to at least start the process and the

23:56

conversation, you know, coupled with

24:00

financial resiliency coupled with

24:00

low to no cost mitigation strategies

24:04

to improve the, the, your, your

24:04

dwellings performance when they face

24:07

these types, but pointing the, you

24:07

know, pointing the finger at who's

24:10

responsible for this evacuation call?

24:12

Who's responsible for this? You know, Puerto Rico, you

24:14

know, FEMA, FEMA, FEMA.

24:17

That ain't working. You're pointing the finger at the

24:18

wrong direction cuz everybody inside

24:20

FEMA knows what it takes to have a

24:20

resilient future, but Congress isn't

24:24

listening to the professionals.

24:27

Yeah. So what would be the ultimate

24:27

takeaway here for Tampa, St.

24:31

Pete, Clearwater, you know, even as far

24:31

south of Sarasota, which still got hit.

24:35

What should people, what

24:35

should they do right now to put

24:40

themselves in a better position?

24:42

Understand the vulnerabilities

24:42

of where you live, of where you live.

24:46

Okay? Understand the vulnerabilities of how

24:47

hurricanes can attack your community

24:50

in different, you know, different

24:50

hurricanes can attack your community.

24:53

Are you vulnerable to high winds,

24:53

storm surge, inland flooding?

24:56

What is it, you know, based on where you live? Be properly insured.

24:59

Insurance is the first line of defense.

25:02

A lot of people who moved down from the

25:02

north to southwest Florida and just, you

25:06

know, bought a house for cash and let

25:06

their home insurance lapse so they could

25:09

have a couple hundred extra bucks a month. You know, an operational account just

25:12

lost their largest chunk of wealth

25:15

in their home because it's gone. And the, you know, the Max Grant

25:17

from FEMA's a little over 32,000

25:21

or $33,000 to help somebody that's

25:21

lost their home and is uninsured.

25:25

Insurance is the first line of defense. FEMA is not designed to make you whole.

25:28

If you're asked to evacuate,

25:28

heed the warning early.

25:31

It's the storm surge that will kill you. Not necessarily the wind, even though

25:33

the wind is what classifies these storms.

25:37

Right? And you know, before you retire

25:37

to different areas, understand

25:40

the areas that you're retiring to

25:40

understand the communities where

25:43

you're planting your business. Understand the vulnerabilities and

25:45

what can happen before you do it.

25:48

And if you choose to live there, do it right. Build to a higher standard.

25:51

Buy a home that's been mitigated.

25:54

Yeah, I was talking

25:54

to a, a neighbor the other day.

25:56

They had a realtor and they were

25:56

going to start looking at property

25:59

a few weeks ago in Sanibel Island. There's a lot of people whose lives are,

26:01

are going to be changed forever because

26:05

of, of this most recent hurricane.

26:08

Yep, absolutely. And you know, there's

26:09

there's a lot of statistics.

26:11

There was there was a research study done

26:11

by the Urban Institute, and I think the

26:15

title is called Adding Insult to Injury. If you Lose Your Home and You're

26:17

Underinsured, There, there are studies

26:21

that were done by the Urban Institute. I think that the title was

26:22

adding Insult to Injury.

26:25

If you're uninsured or underinsured,

26:25

you're going to spiral outta control in

26:29

a negative direction, financially for,

26:29

probably the remainder of your life.

26:33

And you know, and the, the other thing

26:33

is, is that, you know, when it comes

26:37

to insurance, don't just think about

26:37

the property, you know, in the house.

26:42

The contents within your

26:42

house are also very important.

26:45

I live in Hickory, North Carolina

26:45

where furniture's manufactured

26:48

and made, you know, handmade. The people around here will tell you

26:50

that, you know, furniture in your home

26:52

is the second most expensive expenditure in your life, George.

26:56

But when we go to the contents

26:56

of our insurance that's where

27:00

we want to try to save money. And so it's not just, And, and

27:01

when you lose your home and you're

27:05

uninsured or underinsured, you

27:05

still have to pay off that mortgage

27:08

for a home that doesn't exist. You're still financially

27:10

responsible for that contract

27:12

you sign. And then you've gotta go also find a

27:13

new place to live, whether you rent

27:17

or whether you, you, you take a small

27:17

business administration, low interest

27:21

loan you know, and so, It's devastating.

27:23

It's truly devastating and

27:23

financially it's hard to

27:26

recover if you experienced it.

27:28

Now, another thing people I don't think, think about is the market was so inflated that

27:30

even if you had a $500,000 home, it

27:34

might now be worth a million dollars. It's not cuz your insurance

27:36

is on that $500,000 home.

27:40

So a lot of people are just,

27:40

I, I see how that could

27:44

completely alter somebody's life.

27:46

And a lot of communities that have faced, you know,

27:46

catastrophic hurricanes also, also go

27:50

through a period of eroding tax base where

27:50

you know, they, the economically, they

27:54

do not recover for a long time because

27:54

they're not able to generate the sales

27:58

tax revenue, the tourism revenue, the

28:01

the service industry is shot. And one of the hardest things about

28:02

these communities when it comes to

28:06

recovery is how do you get how do you

28:06

get the service industry back to a

28:10

community in an area where the average

28:10

home price is over a million dollars?

28:14

you know, it, it's affordable living is

28:14

a, is a challenge in most communities

28:18

across America, but along the coast

28:18

it's even more challenging, particularly

28:22

when all of it's been wiped out. And, you know, affordable

28:23

housing is, is gonna be a huge

28:26

challenge in the future too. But the eroding tax base piece is huge.

28:30

Look at what Homestead Florida

28:30

went through after Andrew.

28:33

You know, it took them, you

28:33

know, over a decade to start

28:37

going in the positive direction.

28:39

Just seeing these images,

28:39

because we've, Sanibel Island was a

28:42

place we went to a lot, down to Naples,

28:42

other places in southwest Florida.

28:46

It's gonna take him, it's, it . Seems

28:46

like a forever just to clean up the

28:49

mess, let alone start to rebuild.

28:52

So after a disaster

28:52

strikes us a couple things.

28:54

One, you know, Southwest Florida

28:54

is still focused on the search

28:57

and rescue mission, right? Then they're gonna be focused

28:59

on the life sustainment mission.

29:03

How do you service people where they are? Then they're gonna be focused on,

29:04

you know, long-term or, or, you

29:08

know, long-term sheltering and

29:08

how that transitions to interim

29:11

housing or long term housing. Right?

29:14

And You know, before you can really

29:14

do anything, this is going to be

29:17

several billion worth of debris that's

29:17

got to be removed and disposed of,

29:22

or recycled, whatever it may be.

29:25

Then you've gotta get the

29:25

power infrastructure back up

29:27

and running without the power. Nothing works.

29:30

You've gotta rebuild, you know, when

29:30

you have big storm surge and it's like

29:33

the one that you've seen, the water and

29:33

sewer infrastructure's totally shot,

29:37

you know, so you gotta go back in. You gotta rebuild roads, you gotta

29:38

rebuild those infrastructure.

29:41

Meanwhile you know, the recovery

29:41

housing effort is still going on.

29:45

People have to decide. Can I remain here and support

29:46

my livelihood in my family,

29:50

or do I need to move and go to

29:50

another location and start over?

29:55

And you know, so it's a race. How, how do you service

29:56

people where they are?

29:59

Try to keep them in a safe, sanitary,

29:59

functional situation within their house

30:03

by simple repairs to, are their hotels

30:03

close by or you know, everybody wants a,

30:08

a FEMA mobile home unit or travel trailer.

30:10

Well, these are not coming down

30:10

the pipe until months from now.

30:13

Yeah. They just don't exist.

30:15

They have to be built, they have to be transported. So the recovery is gonna go on well

30:17

over a decade and you're not gonna

30:21

be able to put the community back

30:21

to the same standard, nor should we.

30:24

We're striving for a new normal at

30:24

this point and a new vision, George,

30:27

so that we don't go through this again.

30:29

We have talked to experts here and they say this is the cost of living in paradise.

30:32

I think it's pretty high price

30:32

to pay when you see this.

30:36

Yeah, but you know,

30:36

disasters are in the eye of the hole or

30:39

the word you know, I, I caution using

30:39

the word catastrophe or catastrophic.

30:43

You know, if you lost your home from

30:43

a house fire and you were uninsured,

30:47

it's catastrophic to you, right? Mm-hmm.

30:49

You know, and so it can happen anywhere.

30:52

You can't take, you know,

30:52

where you live for granted.

30:54

I mean, I've actually seen houses

30:54

in my own community flood because

30:57

of a basketball in a drain pipe.

31:01

Wow. You know, And so it's you know, so,

31:01

so you can't take it for granted.

31:05

You can't take your safety for granted. You gotta, but you gotta prepare.

31:07

You gotta prepare.

31:09

Brock, thank you so much for your time. I, I, I appreciate your insights and

31:10

you know, I'll, I'll be bugging you

31:14

again because hopefully we're doing some

31:14

more with The Last House Standing, and

31:17

I would love to have your expertise.

31:20

Fantastic. George, thank you so much.

31:22

Thank you so much for joining me on today's Tell Us How to Make It Better podcast.

31:25

If you have any questions or thoughts

31:25

about what you were listening to

31:29

things you might wanna see differently,

31:29

there's a contact form where you

31:31

can reach me in the show notes.

31:34

And if you enjoyed what you were

31:34

listening to, please become a

31:36

subscriber and share the link to the

31:36

podcast with your friends as well.

31:40

Thanks again for listening. See you next time.