0:02

Hi listeners, Dave here to let you know

0:04

that this week, we're running one of

0:06

our most popular shows from the archives,

0:08

shows from the archives. hope in difficult times,

0:11

Times. initially about a year

0:13

ago, a the wisdom in it is

0:15

absolutely timeless. timeless. And it's something we we

0:17

God at felt like we all could

0:19

use. all could use. A way to spark

0:21

hope as we move into the holiday

0:23

season and begin to consider our

0:25

goals and dreams for the new year.

0:28

the new year. In this episode, we'll talk

0:30

to Nicholas a New York Times

0:32

columnist and author of the

0:34

memoir Chasing Hope, about how, even

0:36

after covering some of the

0:38

world's most tragic and seemingly hopeless

0:40

situations, most He still finds... ways

0:42

to maintain faith in humanity. he

0:44

still future. ways to maintain faith

0:46

in over the past few years.

0:48

future. Over sense of hopelessness has been rising

0:51

in the U .S. has been

0:53

rising it's not hard to see why. not hard

0:55

to The pandemic was a was

0:57

a gut punch. And on on its

0:59

heels came gun violence, racial

1:02

strife, increasing economic

1:04

inequality. and data

1:06

on climate change. change. By

1:08

the the middle of 2023. surveys

1:10

showed that feelings that feelings of despair

1:12

hit record levels, and and that

1:14

was the the recent tragic events

1:17

in Israel and Gaza. and Gaza. So

1:19

So as we look to

1:21

the new year, it's understandable

1:23

why any of us might

1:25

be pessimistic. But

1:27

these feelings aren't written in

1:29

stone. We always

1:31

have a choice. always have

1:33

a in these darkest of times.

1:36

when all feels lost, when that

1:38

hope helps us find our

1:41

way, not just

1:43

to heal ourselves, way. but

1:45

also the world around

1:47

us. ourselves, but also the

1:50

world around us. On this

1:52

on this episode. with New We'll

1:54

talk with New York Times Nicholas Christoff, who

1:56

who through a long and storied

1:58

career has covered some of the

2:00

greatest pain and tragedies imaginable,

2:02

about how he still finds

2:04

hope in the world. The

2:06

brighter side of hope, I

2:08

think, what makes it work,

2:10

is this sense that one

2:12

can actually bring about change.

2:14

I think that it's often

2:17

impossible to find that follow-through

2:19

unless you are animated by

2:21

hope. And we'll talk with

2:23

Rochi Joan Halifax, ecologist, civil

2:25

rights activist, hospice caregiver, and

2:27

founder of the Upaya Zen

2:29

Center, about the Buddhist notion

2:31

of wise hope, the equanimity

2:33

it can bring, and the

2:35

fierce compassion it can unleash.

2:37

Hope is not a story

2:39

that is based on optimism

2:41

that everything's going to be

2:43

okay. Wise hope really rests

2:45

in the experience of openness.

2:49

I'm Dave Disteno, and

2:51

this is how God

2:53

works. As a journalist

2:55

and opinion columnist, Nicholas

2:57

Christoff has reported on

2:59

some of the most

3:01

bleak, horrific, and seemingly

3:03

intractable conflicts around the

3:05

world, for which he's

3:07

won two Pulitzer surprises.

3:09

He charts his remarkable

3:11

career in his upcoming

3:14

memoir, Chasing Hope, which

3:16

will be released later

3:18

this spring. In

3:20

reading it, one of the things

3:22

I found most inspiring was that

3:24

even given a reporting career that

3:27

could have easily led to burnout,

3:29

PTSD, or at the very least,

3:32

a hardened and cynical view of

3:34

the world, Nick possesses none of

3:36

these qualities. Throughout it all, he's

3:39

remained improbable. And it's that hope,

3:41

in people's inherent goodness, the bettering

3:43

of society, the power of journalism

3:46

to affect change, that has led

3:48

him to go beyond journalism, to

3:50

create educational opportunities, run for political

3:53

office, and even start a sidery

3:55

and vineyard on the farm where

3:58

he grew up in Yamalo. I've

4:01

been seeing been seeing your, siters on

4:03

Twitter. so I'm... Oh yeah, it's, you know, it's such a

4:05

you know, it's such a different kind

4:07

of for for me, but it's, it's

4:09

a really fun adventure. And it's,

4:11

it's kind of my artistic outlet. And

4:13

I learned a lot from it.

4:15

It's, it's been a, it's been a

4:18

great diversion. And let me add a

4:20

great product. Full disclosure here,

4:22

here. I I have some in my fridge.

4:24

fridge. We up

4:26

with Nick on his family farm after

4:28

he returned from covering the tragic situation in

4:30

Israel and Gaza. but even

4:32

among the pain and violence he saw there. but

4:35

even still found pain of hope. he

4:37

saw there, he still found embers of

4:40

hope. I think there I think

4:42

there are lots of reasons to

4:44

worry about it. I think

4:46

the killing will continue for time

4:48

time and that creates a dynamic

4:50

that makes it really hard

4:52

to resolve. But what What really

4:54

impressed me was was I

4:56

to people on both sides

4:58

of this this great gulf who

5:00

had suffered deep personal losses

5:02

themselves, and yet somehow

5:04

found it in them founded

5:06

in them to forgive, to try

5:09

to... I that more killing isn't

5:11

going to help to want

5:13

to build bridges rather than blow

5:15

them up. And you know some

5:17

of these were And you know, some of

5:19

who had had lost loved ones even parents

5:21

to the Hamas attacks on 7th,

5:23

and they didn't and to blow didn't just

5:25

want to blow up Gaza forever

5:28

try to wanted to try to figure

5:30

out how we can build a

5:32

two -state solution and go forward

5:34

And then likewise talking to talking you

5:36

know one who lost his one -old

5:38

daughter his 10-year-old daughter and yet was still

5:40

to try to figure out

5:42

how we can work

5:44

with Israelis with stop the

5:46

killing on both sides and

5:49

move forward. and move forward. if

5:51

even. even these These people suffered just

5:53

the worst the worst possible you

5:55

can imagine if they are

5:57

willing to try to

5:59

find the humanity the other side, then maybe

6:01

there's hope for the rest of

6:03

us. of us. That's what what I'd like to think.

6:12

adversity, tragedy loss,

6:15

these are parts of These are

6:17

parts of being human. Not

6:19

everyone experiences it to the same

6:21

degree. and and few to

6:23

the extent of what Nick just described. But

6:26

when adversity does touch us, we

6:28

have a choice. we have a choice despair,

6:31

hardening our hearts, hearts, or to

6:33

be hopeful. compassionate,

6:35

and to and to work for the good. good. In

6:39

my lab, we've seen adversity lead people

6:41

down both these paths. both these paths.

6:43

while, on average, average, more hope

6:45

than despair, despair, it's not always

6:47

easy. easy. How and

6:49

why to make that choice was a

6:51

lesson Nick first learned from his father. father?

6:54

My dad My a was II World

6:56

War II refugee. He was in

6:58

a concentration camp for a while.

7:00

He had very little real grounded reason

7:02

be be hopeful. And yet I

7:04

think he did have that sense

7:06

of hope. And I think that

7:08

helped enable him to survive the

7:10

war, helped enable him to. him

7:12

to to the US and bear a son a son

7:14

who became a journalist. How

7:17

did he balance that? a kind of

7:20

kind of rationalistic view of life with

7:22

also having hope, because I mean,

7:24

given that he was in those

7:26

terrible circumstances. the odds The

7:28

odds weren't great that it would work out well.

7:30

well. You know, I'm not sure

7:33

not sure that exactly Exactly

7:35

antagonistic. I think of

7:37

them almost in separate spheres

7:40

that one can rationally

7:42

calculate that things look very

7:44

grim things look very grim and yet hope

7:46

is is this emotion of

7:48

emotion can be things can new

7:51

better. I talk about being about

7:53

being in a plane that's coming

7:55

down to crash crash you know, know, rationally

7:57

the the odds did not look

7:59

very good. good. were coming down

8:01

in a jungle and Congo.

8:03

And I knew that intellectually,

8:06

and yet I did somehow

8:08

sort of nurse this belief

8:10

that in some way or

8:12

another, we were going to

8:15

land safely. I didn't disagree

8:17

with irrational analysis, but somehow

8:19

they co-inhabited my brain. Holding

8:26

two oppositional truths at once

8:28

might seem illogical, but in

8:30

truth, it's necessary. If you

8:32

accept defeat, if you believe

8:34

you can't beat the odds

8:37

even though it's unlikely, the

8:39

only choice is despair. And

8:41

given that very few things

8:43

in this world have a

8:45

100% probability of occurring, having

8:47

hope makes sense. Sometimes it's

8:50

the only thing that helps

8:52

you keep going. And

8:54

for me, personally, right now,

8:57

I need something to help

8:59

keep me going. It's easy

9:01

to become pretty cynical pretty

9:03

quickly if you watch or

9:05

read the news. Many reporters

9:07

sensationalize tragedies, talk show hosts

9:09

feature political fights, and social

9:12

media algorithms abet doom scrolling.

9:14

But to Nick, journalism done

9:16

right can actually be an

9:18

act of hope. The real

9:20

reporting, when people put their

9:23

lives on the line, that

9:25

is absolutely an act of

9:27

hope. You

9:29

think about journalists who are pleading

9:31

to be allowed to go into

9:33

Gaza right now to cover the

9:35

reign of destruction? Why do they

9:37

take these risks? I think it's

9:39

because of some notion that we

9:42

can make a difference and that

9:44

bearing witness can ease that burden

9:46

of suffering. If you're a pure

9:48

cynic, you don't think anything matters,

9:50

then what's the point of going

9:52

off and covering these things? No.

9:54

us went into

9:57

journalism. It certainly

9:59

wasn't the money,

10:01

and it wasn't

10:03

the business model.

10:05

but I think it

10:07

was some notion that we can

10:09

have an impact on the world around

10:11

us. and that is an element

10:14

of hope. And

10:18

how you report your stories can be just

10:20

as important as the facts themselves. Our

10:23

brains don't - respond emotionally to facts

10:25

and figures. So for readers who weren't

10:27

witnessing the events in person, Nick found

10:29

another way to get them engaged. One

10:31

of the ways I learned this and

10:33

confronted this, and and it actually was

10:35

my sort of introduction, a little bit

10:37

to social psychology, was way back during

10:39

Darfur, early in Darfur, I was going

10:41

off writing these pieces about, these massacres,

10:44

It was, it just so affected me.

10:46

And then at the same time in

10:48

New York, there were these two hawks

10:50

who lived on the edge of Central

10:52

Park, you remember? So the celebrity? this

10:54

time? It's a bird, a

10:56

red -tailed hawk. He's a doubt

10:58

the most famous red -tailed hawk

11:00

in the world. the

11:03

building had dismantled their nest and

11:05

because they didn't like the bird

11:07

droppings and all of a sudden

11:09

all of New York was up

11:11

in arms about these two homeless

11:13

red -tailed hawks. Some New Yorkers

11:15

protested including building resident Mary Tyler

11:17

Moore. The board reversed its decision

11:19

adding a metal support and pale

11:22

male came back. Everybody's stopping

11:24

and just staring at

11:26

this incredible majestic creature. And

11:29

I thought, how is it

11:32

that I can generate the same

11:34

outrage about hundreds of thousands

11:36

of people being killed so that

11:39

led me to try to understand how do

11:41

I get people to care. There's

11:47

great research on it. And, you

11:49

know, partly it's about telling individual

11:51

stories and building an emotional resonance.

11:53

And partly I think it's also

11:55

about... making people

11:57

understand that if

12:00

they get engaged, there can be

12:02

a better outcome, that it's not

12:04

hopeless, that it's not inevitable. that

12:06

it's not Very often since

12:08

then very stories and my

12:10

books have had a certain

12:12

arc where I and my how

12:14

terrible things are, but I

12:16

also arc where I describe how terrible

12:19

get better are, but I this is not

12:21

inevitable. that things

12:23

can get better and that

12:25

this is can get better. But

12:29

it's not always an easy

12:31

path. path. There'll be hard times

12:33

and failures along the way. the way.

12:35

So remaining hopeful requires finding

12:37

ways to rebalance yourself, to

12:39

regain your emotional footing. footing.

12:41

I asked Nick what helps him to

12:43

do this. this. In the

12:46

period when I was covering some

12:48

of these some of and global tragedies,

12:50

I was introducing my kids to

12:52

the joys of backpacking and my

12:54

daughter and I I backpacked over years the

12:56

entire Pacific Crest Trail from Mexico

12:59

to Canada. to Canada. That was so

13:01

cathartic for me and part of

13:03

it was being with my daughter

13:05

in a situation where neither of

13:07

us could turn away and look

13:09

at screens. We were stuck with

13:12

each other. We were but

13:14

partly each other. But of nature,

13:16

that that awe that awe,

13:18

really was important to

13:20

me. to me. Spinoza

13:25

said something about how we

13:27

always create God in own image and

13:29

that that would think of God

13:31

as a chair a chair and would

13:33

think of God think triangular preeminently

13:35

know I think there is maybe

13:37

something to that there in many

13:39

ways I think of in many ways

13:41

I think of the divine in terms of

13:43

the mountain ranges of the California sieras

13:46

or Mount here in Oregon, which

13:48

I hike around every year.

13:51

every year. it's something about

13:53

the permanence of the

13:55

wilderness and this mountain was

13:57

here 5 ,000 years ago.

13:59

ago. from now it'll be.

14:01

It'll still be there. I find

14:04

that very soothing. We have the

14:06

family farm where I grew up

14:08

in rural Oregon. It's where I'm

14:10

talking to you from right now.

14:12

And again, I just find it

14:14

very calming and soothing to be

14:17

here on the farm, to nurse

14:19

my apple trees, to make cider.

14:21

And you know, and think about

14:23

and try to digest what I

14:25

saw. Do

14:30

you have any advice for

14:32

our listeners of how they

14:34

can find hope when they're

14:36

looking out and seeing war

14:38

and addiction and economic inequality

14:41

and feeling some sense of

14:43

despair? I guess

14:45

I think it's important to

14:47

also have some perspective. When

14:49

I was a kid a

14:51

majority of human beings throughout

14:53

history had always been illiterate

14:55

and now we're approaching 90%

14:57

literacy. You know when I

14:59

graduated in college 41% of

15:01

the world's people lived in

15:03

extreme poverty. Now we're down

15:05

below 10% That's incredible. Girls

15:07

around much of the world

15:09

just did not get an

15:11

education. They were very often

15:13

married at 13, 14, 15.

15:15

Now girls and boys are

15:17

about equally likely to get

15:19

a primary school education around

15:21

the world. That's just an

15:24

incredible transformation. I just am

15:26

so struck by this backdrop

15:28

of progress that I don't

15:30

think we adequately acknowledge in

15:32

the world. And I think

15:34

it's unfortunate that intellectuals in

15:36

particular, we want to push

15:38

back and say, oh, but

15:40

things are awful and it

15:42

seems disloyal to all the

15:44

problems in the world to...

15:46

allow a little nanosecond of

15:48

applause for the progress. But

15:50

I think that it's worth

15:52

acknowledging this imperfect, incomplete progress,

15:54

not for complacency, but to

15:56

motivate us that we can

15:58

solve some of these. and

16:01

and we can make

16:03

real progress against mortality, against

16:05

disease, against war. and I think

16:07

I think we're more likely

16:09

to move forward and

16:11

address these problems if we

16:13

do recognize that backdrop

16:15

of progress that that gives

16:17

us hope. how And how about

16:19

for parents with young children? They

16:21

may not be able to understand

16:23

the statistics and the logic of

16:25

the arguments we're making, making, but yet they

16:27

can see TV and see what's

16:29

going on. you I'm wondering, you

16:31

said your you father helped you understand

16:33

the importance of hope. Do you

16:36

have any advice for parents with

16:38

young children? So I

16:40

think that two really important tools

16:42

we can equip children with

16:44

are empathy. Empathy empathy. that Empathy

16:46

is something that can be

16:48

learned and cultivated, partly about learning

16:50

about people, people, putting oneself in

16:52

other people's shoes, know, reading reading

16:55

about other people makes one a one

16:57

a little more empathetic. And so I think

16:59

it's think it's important to try

17:01

to build those empathy muscles

17:03

in children. And little the other

17:05

is self -efficacy skills skills, that when they

17:07

are children, that that they're not

17:09

just passive subjects and recipients

17:11

of learning, but they can do things.

17:13

things. in school, I think there

17:16

should be more efforts at

17:18

getting students involved and active and

17:20

organized. organized. For some kids, it'll

17:22

be athletics, other kids, it'll be

17:24

student government, be student be whatever,

17:26

student journalism. be There are all

17:28

kinds of ways to encourage that.

17:30

But to give them the

17:32

muscles to feel that they can

17:34

do things on their own

17:37

and make a difference in the

17:39

world. Roshy

17:54

Joan Halifax is the founder and

17:56

head of of the Zen Center

17:58

in in Fe, New Mexico. But

18:01

her life her life wasn't spent sitting

18:03

on a meditation cushion. a

18:05

good part of my

18:07

life has been spent in

18:10

situations that are fundamentally

18:12

deemed as. as hopeless.

18:15

In the 60s, I I was

18:17

an anti activist a civil rights

18:19

worker. I've been in

18:21

the end -of -life care field

18:23

since the early 1970s. Also,

18:25

I worked for six years

18:27

as a volunteer as a volunteer

18:29

Row. row and maximum security

18:31

at the at the of New

18:33

Mexico. of New plus

18:36

being a long -term a long-term

18:38

climate and also

18:40

a feminist. a feminist. All

18:42

of these are kind of

18:44

pretty, of hopeless situations. hopeless work

18:46

that could induce futility.

18:50

You know, I often I often

18:52

say I was born for

18:54

this time. This era of

18:57

catastrophe and of catastrophe

18:59

and of the

19:01

worst out in many people,

19:03

the worst out of many

19:05

people, a but also of out a

19:07

quality of strength and

19:09

also of wisdom. of We

19:12

often hear this term. put to the

19:14

side, positivity which is this

19:16

sense that are going for the world to

19:18

be right. the world for the world to be

19:20

normal. I should be I should be happy of

19:22

of the time. if there if there

19:24

is suffering, then something's then I wrong and

19:27

I should take a pill or do

19:29

something else. You know, we see

19:31

this with death too, right? We often

19:33

put the side, put to the side, people

19:36

people who are going through that

19:38

stage. So we don't have to see

19:40

that part of life. of life. And so

19:42

so do you think What role do

19:44

you think there is that there is

19:46

adversity, there is pain, part of life?

19:48

a normal part of life, is that

19:50

not facing that some of making

19:52

it. think it is some ways, or do

19:54

you think it is making it harder in some

19:56

ways for us to have hope? Cause we assume

19:58

when something goes wrong, wrong, it's all. to

20:00

hell. You know there are

20:03

so many ways that we

20:05

bypass. You know one is

20:08

through toxic positivity is this

20:10

kind of aversion to suffering

20:13

to conflict to difficulties and

20:15

yet we know in terms

20:17

of the development of one's

20:20

character it's exactly those adversities

20:22

that build strength. people who

20:25

go through intensive suffering and

20:27

in the right circumstances with

20:29

the right causes and conditions

20:32

come out of that experience

20:34

actually strengthened and more hopeful.

20:37

As Rochi points out, adversity

20:39

and tragedy can bring out

20:42

the worst in us, but

20:44

also the best. They can

20:46

evoke anger, greed, and despair,

20:49

or hope, empathy, and compassion.

20:51

Almost all spiritual traditions advise

20:54

us to choose hope. But

20:56

that leaves, how? How can

20:58

we be brave enough to

21:01

choose hope and stick with

21:03

it in the face of

21:06

improbable odds and past failures?

21:08

One key, according to Roshi,

21:11

is to distinguish between different

21:13

types of hope. I think

21:15

it's important to look at

21:18

what we consider to be

21:20

ordinary hope in order to

21:23

understand wise hope. And you

21:25

know, someone who is ordinarily

21:27

hopeful, if you will, there's

21:30

a kind of desire and

21:32

aspiration for a particular outcome.

21:35

And that outcome might be

21:37

well different from what actually

21:40

happens. And then

21:42

not getting what you

21:44

hope for can breed

21:46

resentment, can breed futility,

21:49

and also there's always

21:51

the shadow of fear

21:53

in the background of

21:55

conventional hope. What do

21:57

you mean by that?

22:00

other words, you hope for

22:02

something, you want an outcome, but

22:04

it might not turn out

22:06

that way. turn out that way. And at the

22:08

level. There's something

22:10

in your body that feels

22:12

like body might not get

22:14

what I want. not get And

22:16

that's what I'm talking about. Fear

22:18

is talking about. not necessarily in

22:21

the foreground, but it's hovering. in

22:23

in the background of

22:25

conventional hope. hope. Hope

22:28

is not a story that

22:30

is based on optimism, that everything's

22:32

going to be okay. going

22:35

don't know okay. We things are

22:37

going to turn out. are

22:39

We don't know what We don't unfold.

22:43

will really rests.

22:45

really in the experience

22:48

of openness. of of

22:50

not knowing. not of

22:52

not being attached to

22:54

outcome. outcome. It's a kind

22:56

of atmosphere that is

22:59

saturating our psyche, if

23:01

you will, with that

23:03

lives. I want to read something

23:05

from one of my favorite

23:07

I want to read something from

23:09

one of my favorite authors,

23:12

Barbara between when

23:14

she's making this distinction between

23:16

optimism and hope. She says,

23:18

I've been thinking a lot

23:20

lately about the difference between

23:22

being optimistic and being hopeful. And

23:26

writes, she would say that

23:28

I'm a hopeful person. hopeful person,

23:31

necessarily optimistic. optimistic.

23:34

And how I would describe

23:36

it. She says, She says, would

23:38

say... It's going to be a

23:40

terrible winter. be a We're all going

23:42

to die. all going to die. The

23:45

optimist would say, would say, okay,

23:47

it's, it'll be all Don't think

23:49

about it. And then she

23:51

says, she says, this. A hopeful

23:53

person would say. would say.

23:55

Maybe someone will still

23:57

be alive in February. so I'm

23:59

going to... some potatoes in the

24:01

root cellar just in case. And

24:04

then later she writes, hope is

24:06

a mode of resistance and that

24:08

it's a gift I try to

24:11

cultivate. Isn't that just wonderful? You

24:13

know, so putting the potatoes in

24:15

the cellar, putting the potatoes in

24:18

the root cellar, we don't know

24:20

what the outcome will be. We

24:24

know that the truth of

24:26

impermanence is going to prevail.

24:28

So, you know, planets die,

24:30

the sun will one day

24:33

be extinguished, civilizations die. We

24:35

have the evidence of impermanence

24:37

in every breath that we

24:40

take. For a lot of

24:42

people, I think, who aren't

24:44

Buddhists, they often think about

24:46

this as, well, everything's impermanent,

24:49

so who cares? So if

24:51

you think about impermanence, Why

24:53

still act? If it's all

24:56

basically going to burn up

24:58

anyway, isn't that almost nihilistic

25:00

at times? Why should that

25:02

make us want to put

25:05

those potatoes away? When you

25:07

think about the experience of

25:09

suffering or of harm, even

25:12

though one suffering may be

25:14

impermanent, but one suffering can

25:16

cause egregious desolation. When

25:19

I was working intensively

25:21

with dying people, such

25:23

a powerful lesson, everyone

25:25

I worked with of

25:28

course died. Many of

25:30

the people that I

25:32

came alongside had terrible

25:34

pain or had fears.

25:36

It didn't mean that

25:38

I didn't show up.

25:41

if you know what I'm

25:44

saying. In other words, just

25:46

because suffering was there or

25:48

it would be persistent, we

25:50

come alongside. We do the

25:53

best that we can to

25:55

live within the landscape of

25:57

possibility, even though the problem

26:00

are so not so hopeful in

26:02

the conventional sense. And And

26:05

that is one of the

26:07

things that I think is

26:09

so powerful about so powerful

26:11

about Wise that this

26:13

is a capacity

26:15

within us. us to

26:18

to actually live with

26:20

radical uncertainty. In

26:23

work my lab, we found that holding

26:25

the belief that your actions can make

26:27

a difference motivates people to do good

26:30

in this world. That makes

26:32

sense. in this world. That a

26:34

caution here. But there's a

26:36

difference between A difference and

26:38

can and will. You see, if if

26:40

you believe that your actions will

26:42

definitely make a difference. make a you're

26:44

setting yourself up for anger or

26:47

frustration. up for anger or only

26:49

so big in this world. We

26:51

don't. this we can't control

26:53

everything. The belief that

26:55

we can we can anxiety.

26:58

And and often when things don't work

27:00

out. out, resentment. Buddhism

27:03

offers a way around this. I

27:05

like so much how Tiknot

27:09

Han translates equanimity.

27:11

He He translates

27:13

it as So

27:16

inclusivity means means whatever

27:18

is arising, whatever is

27:21

being given in any given

27:23

moment, that that is what

27:25

is the reality. of of

27:27

that moment. and

27:30

one is able to include it

27:32

as this is the truth of

27:34

this moment. We don't know what don't

27:36

know what the next is going

27:38

to give us. to are present. are

27:41

present. are not turning

27:43

away from. are We are connected

27:45

to what is happening in

27:47

the present moment. What

27:49

is is important in terms

27:52

of our moral character is

27:54

that we respond from the

27:56

point of view of our

27:58

deepest values. of view of if

28:01

nothing good comes of it.

28:03

Hope isn't just an emotion.

28:05

According to many religions, it's

28:08

also a virtue. And I

28:10

think that fits what the

28:13

point Rochi is making. Hope,

28:16

in its true sense, isn't just

28:18

a wish that something happens. It's

28:20

an expression of our values. It's

28:23

a feeling that pushes us to

28:25

act in accord with those values,

28:28

to do our best to bring

28:30

them about, recognizing that we might

28:32

fail sometimes. But what can people

28:35

do to begin to cultivate that

28:37

sense of wise hope? I

28:40

always think about the

28:42

difference between an examined

28:45

life and an unexamined

28:47

life. This is where

28:49

I think Western psychology

28:51

and psychotherapy has so

28:54

much to lend in

28:56

terms of our character

28:58

development. Also the experience

29:00

of practice, the meditation

29:02

of contemplation, of deep

29:05

looking, of stilling, of

29:07

bearing witness. And there's

29:09

a third thing, the

29:11

value of community. I

29:14

think we need to

29:16

rebuild the vitality, the

29:18

strength of our communities.

29:21

This is not only our family

29:23

system, our neighborhoods, but also, you

29:25

know, in terms of colleagues, the

29:28

people with whom we work and

29:30

with whom we serve. I tell

29:32

you, living in spiritual community since

29:34

1979, it's not always support, it's

29:36

reflection. Boy, you see all your

29:39

worst characteristics coming to the foreground,

29:41

just like you do in a

29:43

primary relationship. And what a community

29:45

does is it allows you to

29:47

see yourself from different points of

29:50

view and to work with the

29:52

edges that have not been acknowledged

29:54

in your experience, but

29:56

have to to be

29:59

acknowledged in order

30:01

for the community

30:03

to be healthy.

30:05

to be healthy. But sometimes when

30:08

we we feel truly hopeless. At

30:11

least for me. me, it it can almost

30:13

feel paralyzing. Like in that like

30:15

in that moment do can't I

30:17

know, do anything. And I know, as you

30:20

said, you've been with people who

30:22

are facing death in their families. You've

30:24

been an activist for social justice

30:26

and against war. so I'm sure you've

30:28

been around yourself and other people

30:30

who have had those moments. who have In

30:32

those moments, In those moments, we

30:34

can't start a meditation practice, right?

30:36

So for people who are just in that

30:38

moment of paralysis, do you have any advice

30:40

for how to take first steps? do

30:42

you my father died. for

30:44

how to was working intensively

30:46

with dying people at

30:48

this time, with

30:50

then my father. this time,

30:53

and then my father died. And

30:55

that grief that

30:57

I experienced. paralyzed

30:59

me. me. I I to to

31:01

actually stop working with dying

31:04

people And I just had to

31:06

heap. I to to I had

31:08

to just did not down,

31:10

I did not want to interact

31:12

with others. I

31:14

certainly couldn't practice in the conventional sense.

31:16

It wasn't a wasn't matter of me

31:18

getting on. me and

31:20

making things and making was

31:22

a matter of

31:25

allowing myself. myself Actually, I

31:27

didn't have a choice. It wasn't allowing

31:29

myself. It was a

31:31

matter of being worked. a matter of

31:33

being worked not succumbing to

31:35

the impulse to fix it

31:37

up. to fix fix

31:39

my situation. my situation.

31:41

in those moments honoring the

31:44

pain. pain, not trying to put

31:46

on a smile. a smile, is part

31:48

of the process. but But

31:50

here is where community comes in.

31:52

comes in. Sometimes lose

31:55

hope. hope. but through

31:57

others that we find it again.

31:59

again. It's through their care,

32:01

their service, their hope for

32:03

us, and what in turn

32:05

we give back to them,

32:08

that we can find a

32:10

way through. It's a point

32:12

Roshi remembers the Dalai Lama

32:14

making at a conference for

32:16

young leaders from around the

32:18

world. And this holiness kept

32:20

going back to this theme

32:23

again and again about how

32:25

we transform our futility, our

32:27

hopelessness, through the experience of

32:29

actually serving others. And this

32:31

we know actually from the

32:33

point of view of neuroscience

32:35

that if we just stay

32:37

in the grip of our

32:40

own grief or anger or

32:42

anguish, that it brings us

32:44

further down. and what really

32:46

serves to uplift us to

32:48

transform our own suffering is

32:50

endeavoring to be a benefit

32:52

to others. Science couldn't agree

32:55

more. Study after study confirms

32:57

that helping others is one

32:59

of the best ways to

33:01

help ourselves. It allows us

33:03

to live our morals and

33:05

try and make the world

33:07

better. In essence, to have

33:10

hope. Hope

33:12

is more than a belief.

33:14

It's a practice too. One

33:17

rooted in empathy, care, and

33:19

perhaps ultimately finding joy for

33:21

ourselves, people around us, and

33:24

even those yet to be

33:26

born. But like any practice,

33:28

it requires effort and understanding,

33:31

effort to push forward in

33:33

the face of failure and

33:35

even despair, understanding to do

33:38

it correctly. As both our

33:40

guests point out, chasing hope

33:42

can be a bumpy road,

33:45

one that requires a sense

33:47

of equanimity at times. There

33:49

are lots of places to

33:52

find that peace and renewal,

33:54

a community of family and

33:56

friends, time in nature's majesty,

33:59

engaging in or

34:01

contemplation. Its practices like these that

34:03

can rebalance us and keep hope

34:05

alive and strong as we move

34:08

into these darker, colder days of

34:10

winter and beyond. And speaking of

34:12

the season's darker days, it's December

34:14

here in Boston, and after a

34:16

mild fall, it's finally starting to

34:19

feel like winter has arrived, and

34:21

as excited as I may be

34:23

for the changing of the seasons.

34:25

I also can't help but feel

34:28

a little gloomy or even stressed

34:30

out at times. We all experience

34:32

the natural dip in energy and

34:34

mood as the days shorten and

34:36

the temperatures drop, which is why

34:39

holiday traditions are such a welcome

34:41

bomb this time of year, if

34:43

we do them right. So next

34:45

week, we're bringing you a special

34:48

holiday edition of How God Works,

34:50

where I'll be joined by happiness

34:52

expert, podcast host, and friend of

34:54

the show Lori Santos, to explore

34:56

what wisdom we can all take

34:59

from traditional holiday rituals, to help

35:01

make sure our holidays, whichever we

35:03

celebrate, bring more joy, connection, and

35:05

hope this season. How

35:09

God Works is hosted by me,

35:11

Dave Disteno. Our senior producer is

35:13

Josie Holtzman. Our producer is Sophie

35:15

Eisenberg. Our associate producer is Emmanuel

35:18

DeZarmay. Executive producer is Genevieve's sponsor.

35:20

Merritt Jacob is our mix engineer

35:22

and composed our theme, which was

35:25

arranged by Chloe Disteno. The executive

35:27

producer of PRX Productions is Jocelyn

35:29

Gonzales. This podcast was also made

35:32

possible with support from the John

35:34

Templeton Foundation. To learn more about

35:36

the show and access episode transcripts,

35:38

you can find our website at

35:41

how God Works, all one word,.org.

35:43

And for news and peaks at

35:45

what's coming, feel free to follow

35:48

us on Instagram at How God

35:50

Works, pod, or me on X

35:52

or Blue Sky, at David Disteno.

36:04

you.