0:00

People find faith or change

0:02

faiths for many reasons. Sometimes

0:05

it's for marriage, to please

0:07

a partner, or when they

0:09

have kids because they believe it'll help

0:11

their children develop morals. Maybe

0:13

it's after facing a personal

0:15

crisis, one that leads to a

0:17

deep analysis of the question, what's

0:20

it all for? Or maybe

0:22

it's just to fit in, to

0:24

find friends and community. But

0:27

sometimes, Whether you're seeking

0:29

it or not, faith just

0:31

hits you out of the blue. A

0:33

feeling, an understanding, a

0:36

believing takes hold of you. One

0:39

that you just can't shake, a

0:41

sense that God is there, and

0:44

maybe not in the way that you expected. Data

0:47

show around 30 % of people

0:49

have had spiritual experiences, including almost

0:51

a fifth of people who

0:54

are strident atheists. So

0:56

that raises a question. If

0:58

you're one of these people, what

1:00

do you do with that? How does

1:02

it change who you are, how you

1:04

live, and even your understanding of what

1:06

it means to be religious? These

1:09

are complicated questions. And

1:12

while I can quote you the statistics, I

1:14

can't tell you what it actually

1:16

feels like or how, if at

1:18

all, it would change me. So

1:21

on today's show, we're going

1:23

to talk with someone who can. New

1:27

York Times columnist and best -selling author

1:29

David Brooks. David

1:32

writes pretty frequently about religion and behavioral

1:34

science, the two themes at the

1:36

heart of this show. But

1:38

when it comes to today's topic at least, he

1:41

also lives it. To me,

1:43

faith is more like falling in love than it

1:45

is deciding which card to buy. So

1:47

it was more a submission to,

1:49

I would say, things that

1:51

are the deeper parts in line. On

1:53

this episode, We're going to talk

1:55

with David about his own spiritual

1:57

journey to understand why faith can

2:00

come to people when they least expect it,

2:02

how they can make sense of it,

2:04

and what it changes for them going

2:06

forward. I'm Dave

2:08

Disteno, and this is How God Works. Hi,

2:16

David. Thanks for joining us today. A pleasure be

2:18

with you. I know for

2:20

the past decade or so, you've been writing

2:22

a lot about the positive role faith can play

2:24

in people's lives. Was that always

2:26

an interest of yours? Religion was very much

2:28

in my life, even when I had no faith. I

2:31

grew up in a Jewish home in New York

2:33

City. I went to a Christian school and I went

2:35

to a Christian camp. So I had

2:37

both these stories rattling around my head. After

2:40

I got married, I kept the kosher

2:42

home. I turned my kids off to

2:44

Jewish day schools. So just as a

2:46

social observer, You can't help

2:48

notice what a strong force religion is in

2:50

people's lives and in social lives. And

2:52

in my view, mostly a force for the

2:54

good. In

2:57

your essay for the New York

2:59

Times where you wrote about finding faith,

3:01

you wrote that you were looking

3:03

for belief, or at least to

3:05

find a set of facts that would convince you

3:07

that God was either real or not. And

3:10

so you spent a lot of time reading

3:12

and analyzing. Why were

3:14

you looking for God and why

3:16

didn't you find the answers in

3:18

reading those texts? Well,

3:20

I was looking for God because I was searching

3:22

for truth. Maybe it does exist. Like,

3:24

if I could have dinner with anybody on earth in history,

3:27

I would definitely choose Jesus. So, like, I have a

3:29

lot of questions for that guy. I

3:32

grew up in a culture that I would

3:34

say that's pretty rationalistic. The

3:37

idea that we change our

3:39

lives when we change our rational

3:41

minds. We weigh evidence. The

3:43

evidence comes out on one side

3:45

of the other and that's how we

3:47

make decisions But it seems to

3:49

me though one part of the Our

3:51

creature that is under explored and

3:53

under understood and clean by me is

3:55

where our desires come from and

3:57

how they elevated Like I can go

3:59

to the restaurant and you can

4:01

choose what to order, but I can't

4:03

choose what I like I like

4:05

shrimp, but I hate scallops. I don't

4:07

know why that is but it's

4:09

what it is. And so there's something

4:11

elemental in our nature about our

4:13

desires that are semi -conscious and having

4:15

spent the last 15 or 20 years

4:17

reading as much neuroscience as I

4:19

can, as much cognitive science and behavioral

4:21

sciences, I've just come

4:23

to have a really healthy respect

4:26

for the unconscious and for its omnipresence

4:28

near and its wisdom. Religion

4:30

touches us at that level. So

4:37

I'd say at this point,

4:39

your background and mine share some

4:41

similarities. I was raised Catholic,

4:43

not Jewish. And I'd say growing

4:45

up, I gave God 50 -50

4:48

odds of being real. But

4:50

like you, I had a deeper desire

4:52

to find out about the nature of

4:54

the divine and about religion and how

4:56

to live a good life. I'm still

4:58

on that journey, as you might tell

5:00

from me during this podcast, but you

5:02

have had experiences that I haven't, ones

5:05

that started to tip you. toward

5:07

faith and build that over time.

5:09

And so I'd like to briefly

5:11

explore that progression. Yeah,

5:13

when I was a teenager, I used

5:15

to lead canoe trips through New England. I

5:20

remember one morning, I woke up

5:22

early, it was dawn, I was

5:24

out walking along a place called

5:26

Mapman -Adnak. And I

5:28

had an experience which I think is

5:30

not uncommon, which is the sense

5:32

of your own selfhood slipping away. and

5:35

some transcendental contact with the

5:37

ultimate form of natural beauty. And

5:39

I think anybody who goes to

5:42

the Redwoods expressing California, I'd have

5:44

some intimations about that slide. And

5:47

then a couple of times in my life, starting when

5:49

I was 13, but periodically over the next 20 or

5:51

30 years, I would go to Sharp

5:53

Cathedral in France about an hour outside of

5:55

Paris. And maybe

5:57

it's because my parents are architectural historians,

5:59

maybe it's because my early contact The

6:01

faith was in a beautiful church in

6:03

New York called Grace Church on 10th

6:06

Street and Broadway. But

6:08

Sharp Cathedral has always struck me as

6:10

sacred ground. And even

6:12

when I had no faith, somehow you

6:14

seem to be touching an

6:16

element of reality that was

6:18

beyond. And

6:21

one of the beauties of Sharp is

6:23

not only a tall, beautiful building, it's

6:25

a whole cosmology. It tells

6:27

the story of Christ on the facade.

6:30

You have all the different pieces. It

6:32

was built with incredible mathematical

6:35

rigor. And there was all

6:37

sorts of signs embedded in the church

6:39

mathematically. So if you take the

6:41

rose window on the front facade and you

6:43

lay it down, it will go directly

6:45

on the maze of the floor of the

6:47

cathedral. It's the exact

6:49

right height, the exact right size. So

6:52

there's like a hinting of a

6:54

divine intelligence here. And so I

6:56

just found those things, little hints,

6:59

but they were just hints. And so they didn't really change

7:01

my life particularly. But they were like

7:03

glimpses of Le Pion. For

7:06

you, it didn't stop there, right?

7:08

One you mentioned was something that happened

7:10

to you of all places on

7:12

the New York City subway. Can

7:14

you tell us about that? For visitors

7:16

who've been to Penn Station in New York,

7:18

you will be aware that this is the second

7:20

uglier spot, maybe on the face of the

7:22

earth. The only potential uglier spot

7:25

would be the subway station next to Penn

7:27

Station, the 8th Avenue line

7:29

on 33rd Street. And

7:31

I was there one day and we're pulling

7:33

in the 33rd Street. And

7:36

I had the sensation that all

7:38

the people in the car had these

7:41

souls, that there was a spiritual

7:43

element to each of them. And

7:45

their souls were not just sitting there glowing.

7:48

The souls were alarming. Some

7:51

of them were sanctified, some were sick

7:53

souls, some were tired souls, some

7:55

were elevated souls, some were joyous. And

7:59

the way it... I would put

8:01

it for sexual audiences is that in

8:03

each of us has some piece

8:05

of ourself that has no size, weight,

8:07

color, or shape, but it gives

8:09

us infinite value and dignity. And

8:11

so that's all in us. It yearns.

8:14

And I think it yearns for goodness. And

8:17

I do think every little action you

8:19

take, and this is a CSO's point, turns

8:22

that little core piece of

8:24

yourself, when I'm loftily calling the

8:26

soul, into something a little

8:28

more highly elevated. or a little

8:30

more degraded. And so

8:32

if I listen to a beautiful piece of music,

8:34

I think I've elevated my soul. And

8:37

if I spend my life watching

8:39

Twitter, I think I've degraded my soul.

8:41

And so I think we carve

8:43

that piece of ourselves with our daily

8:45

choice. So

8:48

David, I want to push you on

8:50

something here. As scientists, we

8:52

know that these types of spiritual

8:54

experiences happen. They're not rare. It's

8:56

also the case that faith isn't

8:58

a prerequisite for them. And

9:00

we also know that they correspond

9:02

to certain types of brain activity that

9:05

we can measure. And we can

9:07

induce them by giving people things like

9:09

ayahuasca or psilocybin or having them

9:11

engage in deep prayer meditation. You know

9:13

the neuroscience literature. Why didn't you

9:15

just write this off as a biological

9:17

reaction, a brain glitch of sorts?

9:19

Isn't that an easier answer? It's

9:22

an answer. But I guess

9:24

The way it manifests to me is not

9:26

just as a mere sensation, though it

9:28

starts with a sensation, but a sensation that

9:30

leads to something. And I

9:32

think it leads to the Bible, a

9:35

friend of mine named Christian Wyman who teaches at Yale, says,

9:38

religion is not just those

9:40

moments that seem transcended. It's

9:42

an attempt to make those moments,

9:44

not just interruptions in our life,

9:46

but somehow to account them as

9:48

part of reality. So

9:51

when people have those spiritual

9:53

experiences like you had. Some

9:55

people write them off, some

9:57

people see them as inspirational. As

10:00

a society, do you think

10:02

we should be looking for more

10:04

enchantment in life, or does

10:06

relying on logic and the need

10:08

for proof and solid belief

10:10

lead to a disenchantment that makes

10:12

us not engage with these

10:14

experiences in a way that could

10:16

help us flourish? Yeah,

10:18

I think I'd make the distinction

10:20

that There are some transcendent experiences

10:23

that it doesn't really reveal anything

10:25

to the universe. And

10:27

some experiences are what they

10:29

call illuminations. They permanently altered

10:31

the way you see the world. So my

10:33

little event in the subway car, where

10:36

I saw people have souls. So

10:38

I would say that experience wasn't only a moment,

10:40

it was a lesson. And

10:44

if you think people have souls, then it's

10:46

a pretty short step to thinking there's a

10:48

soul giver. And so, while

10:50

I would say these transcendent experiences are

10:52

the first step of faith, they're only

10:54

the first step. Beva

10:58

Zornberg wrote a book called

11:00

The Particulars of Rapture about

11:02

the Exodus story. And

11:05

she has a concept there when Hebrew

11:07

slaves were in Egypt. She says

11:09

their lives were so hard they were unused. They

11:11

didn't sing. But then

11:13

as they're crossing the Red Sea, Miriam

11:15

breaks out into song. and

11:18

she says they've been re -musiced.

11:23

That felt resonant to me that

11:25

you can go through life spiritually

11:27

and emotionally restrained, I would say,

11:29

and then you can get a

11:31

little more emotionally and spiritually opened

11:33

and more alive. You

11:44

were raised Jewish as you said, although exposed

11:46

a lot. to Christianity. How

11:49

do you define yourself now? I

11:51

tell people I'm religiously bisexual. My

11:56

Jewish friends, they listen, if

11:58

you're reading the Gospel of Matthew,

12:00

you've gone over to the

12:02

other team, which is absolutely fair.

12:04

And so, you know, I spend more time going to church

12:07

than there's in God's. But I have to say, I

12:09

feel more Jewish now than ever before. Because

12:11

before I read the book that's this, man,

12:13

I thought a nice story. Now

12:15

I think it's fundamentally true.

12:17

Maybe not literally true, but

12:19

profoundly true. Now

12:22

when you make this kind of transition, you

12:24

realize you can take the boy out of Judaism, but

12:26

you can't take Judaism out of the boy. And

12:29

so, like for example, when

12:31

I'm in conversation with Christian circles,

12:33

I have to tone down my humor level. I

12:37

don't want to be too chewy. And

12:39

I have to turn down my argument level. Like

12:41

one of the nice things about Judaism is that

12:44

it really is argument is a form of prayer.

12:48

That's how I think

12:50

through argument. And that's

12:52

not quite the way it works in the

12:54

Christian world. The

12:56

biggest difference is in the Christian world, I

12:59

sometimes hear people saying, I'm going to take my

13:01

hand off the wheel and I've got steer. But

13:04

in the Jewish tradition, as far as I

13:06

understand it, we're involved in an act of

13:08

co -creation with God. There's

13:11

a lot more urgency. And

13:13

I think one of the reasons Jews have

13:15

trouble thinking about the afterlife is if it's perfect,

13:17

there's nothing left to do. And

13:19

so who would want to go there? And so

13:21

I find that I can never

13:23

totally surrender my will to God's grace.

13:27

But what do you say to

13:30

people who are very creedal and

13:32

who basically say, well, you can't

13:34

be both. You have to be

13:36

one or the other. I

13:38

accept that you probably have to be one or the

13:40

other, but I would amend that in a couple

13:42

of ways. One, I'd point out that Jesus was actually

13:44

a Jewish guy. He

13:46

didn't talk about creating a new religion

13:48

that was separate. I

13:50

think the separation between these two

13:53

religions is partially an artifact

13:55

of 2 ,000 years of Christian

13:57

antisemitism. And it's an artifact of

13:59

two different cultures that define themselves as the

14:01

opposite of the other. But

14:03

I frankly don't think they are opposite the other.

14:06

I don't think there's anything. I talked about how

14:08

beautiful I thought that the attitudes are. There's

14:10

really nothing in there that isn't contained in

14:12

the Old Testament. Jesus was

14:14

very much growing out of that tradition and

14:16

thought he was speaking into it. And

14:19

so I accept that, you

14:21

know, creed does matter, but I

14:24

think the difference that we

14:26

attribute to Judaism and Christianity was

14:28

not there in the first

14:30

century. There is a

14:32

tradition of mystics in all of

14:34

these tradition, right? Those seekers who

14:36

have had experiences kind of like

14:39

yours, they often embrace a

14:41

more non -traditional, less dogmatic approach

14:43

to faith. And it's often

14:45

a reason why they're looked at

14:47

with some suspicion by traditionalists. Do

14:50

you think having had

14:52

these experiences alters the

14:54

way you respond to

14:56

strict dogma or the

14:59

authorities in these traditions?

15:02

Yeah, well, I'm not dogmatic person,

15:04

so I'm a great faith

15:06

in human fallibility. When I

15:08

look at the mystics, I realize

15:10

I'm nowhere near Lee. But when

15:12

I look at St. Augustine, he was

15:14

among the most brilliant minds I've ever

15:16

encountered. And he

15:19

felt a restlessness as he

15:21

put it, we are restless until we

15:23

rest in you. Now,

15:25

I think that restlessness should

15:27

tell us something. I

15:29

don't think it proves the existence

15:31

of God, because I'm restless to be

15:33

able to dunk his basketball. I'm

15:36

never going to be able to do that. It

15:38

doesn't mean anything. It's restless

15:40

for things beyond my means. But

15:42

I do think that Augustine's

15:45

centrality of yearning tells us something.

15:47

And the fact that we

15:49

yearn for something doesn't mean it

15:51

exists. But it could mean

15:53

we're wired in a certain way to that

15:55

kind of yearning. And I have a lot

15:57

of atheists and secular friends who have yearnings.

15:59

But it's not quite the same. But I

16:01

think it's a yearning for beautiful goodness. I

16:03

think that's almost a human universal. He

16:06

says something pretty profound there. And

16:08

it's that faith. Isn't necessarily a

16:10

possession or a certainty of something

16:13

you have like a fact, right?

16:15

It's better conceived of as a

16:17

yearning. What does that Flipping it

16:19

in that way do for us?

16:22

Well, it means you're not

16:24

like Seeking faith just

16:27

as callous as the opium

16:29

of the masses I

16:31

Rabbi Joseph Olajik was a

16:33

20th century scholar He

16:36

wrote that faith is like going down

16:38

the rapids of a river. There

16:40

are moments when you hit the rocks, there are

16:42

moments of soaring. It's

16:44

just tumbled. And

16:47

so one the things I learned about

16:49

faith, it isn't like once you achieve it,

16:51

you reach some stasis point where it's

16:53

all serene. And you think, oh,

16:55

I've got eternal life, goody -goody, let's

16:57

go. It's an

16:59

even more torturous journey, I would

17:01

say, after you have faith than before

17:03

you have faith. Because

17:05

the demands, the obligations, the

17:08

goals, the aspirations are higher. At

17:11

least they were for me. And it

17:13

was an act of raising what I

17:15

wanted of life. What

17:21

is knowing God like for you? How

17:23

do you perceive God? I

17:27

guess, you know, you perceive Him

17:29

as grace. I actually felt

17:31

grace before I felt God. And

17:33

that is the notion that we

17:35

don't live in a cold, meaningless

17:37

universe, that there is some fundamental

17:39

structure of love in the universe

17:42

that exists between human beings, exists

17:44

between us and our children, exists

17:46

between us and our towns, between

17:48

beauty. And then what happens

17:50

on those darker days when you

17:52

feel most separated from God? Do you

17:54

have those days of loss of

17:56

faith or separation? Since

17:59

I experienced faith as longing, Some

18:02

days I'm enthusiastically longing and some

18:04

days I suffer what the medieval is

18:06

called a seedia Which is a

18:08

lack of longing a loss of desire

18:10

and I have to say the

18:12

days when I suffer from a seedia

18:14

loss of desire Those are great.

18:16

Hey, like why I don't think about

18:18

it at all. I I followed

18:20

the New York Mets. I read the

18:22

New York Times like it's fine

18:24

No big deal and so maybe I'm

18:26

not experiencing life in all its

18:28

dimensions as in other days, but I

18:30

found I can go weeks or

18:32

months without feeling anything. And

18:35

in some days, this is not there. Some days, it's

18:37

not even out. It's just apathy. But

18:39

then other days, it feels real.

18:41

And so that's good enough for

18:43

me. Are you ever

18:45

intentional about trying to get that

18:48

yearning strong again at times?

18:50

I mean, the traditional way

18:52

is through spiritual disciplines. It's

18:54

through fasting. It's through prayer. I

18:57

can test. I don't like fasting.

18:59

It makes me hungry. And

19:01

I suck at prayer, because if you're

19:03

a journalist, I'm like, oh, this

19:05

prayer is lack of structure. It's a

19:08

little repetitive. I'm editing my prayers.

19:10

I'm going along. I

19:14

was once asked to pray for some

19:16

people who were suffering in Syria. And

19:18

my prayer when it came out was like, I

19:20

hope the UN passes all the relevant

19:23

resolutions. I hope the safe zone. It was

19:25

like I'd written a newspaper column. And

19:27

so I don't experience like that. And

19:29

maybe just the way I raised and

19:31

the job I do, I experience it

19:33

through reading, frankly. It's

19:35

in spiritual reading, which is a

19:37

divine practice. That's where

19:39

I feel the juice. In

19:42

some ways, I like to say,

19:44

you know, religion, the practices of it

19:46

curate our emotions and our goals

19:48

for us simultaneously. And for some people,

19:50

maybe it's one more than the

19:53

other, depending upon the route that you

19:55

get there. These practices

19:57

have an ancient wisdom that

19:59

tweaks our mind and bodies

20:01

in a way that gives

20:03

us that juice as you're

20:05

saying But I think for

20:07

us to succeed to reach

20:09

our goals to do hard

20:11

things and become a better

20:13

person We have to have

20:15

plans But we also have

20:17

to have a deep motivation, and it's

20:19

those emotions that make us do things when

20:21

they're hard. One or the other of

20:23

those isn't going to work. The goal and

20:26

the strategy without the fire and the

20:28

feeling to do it won't last. The fire

20:30

and the feeling that's not channeled into

20:32

productive tools and practices is probably going to

20:34

lead us to flail. And

20:37

so... worry when people are just saying,

20:39

I'm going to become spiritual. And I say,

20:41

what does that mean? Then I'm like,

20:43

well, I'm going to take this piece of

20:45

this religion and this piece of this

20:47

other thing, that trying to assemble things in

20:49

new ways and without having a community

20:51

around you may not get you where you

20:53

want to go. Yeah, there was

20:55

a famous book called Habits of the Heart

20:57

by Robert Bella and a bunch of other people.

20:59

And in the first few pages of that

21:01

book, they interviewed a woman who said, my religion

21:03

is Sheilaism. And her name is

21:05

Sheila. and she had picked

21:07

out some bits of this and bits of

21:09

that. My problem with that is

21:11

when you treat religion that way, A,

21:14

you're probably not as smart as the

21:16

entire Muslim tradition or the entire Buddhist

21:18

tradition. Like, there are reasons these traditions

21:20

exist and they've been here over centuries.

21:23

Second, you're probably gonna choose

21:25

a faith that doesn't really challenge you to do

21:27

what you don't want to do. It's

21:29

like the faith of nature. If you go

21:31

out and have a religious experience in the forest

21:33

as I have, It doesn't really

21:36

ask anything of you. It just confirms

21:38

what you already thought. Religion

21:40

is a form of obligation. And

21:42

so it's a social enterprise.

21:45

It involves rules, it involves sacrifices,

21:47

and involves spiritual disciplines. So

21:50

without that, I think

21:52

you're adrift. What

21:54

is religion for in your view,

21:56

right? Part of finding a new

21:58

faith or even a faith at

22:00

all if you're coming from someone

22:02

who is not really believer. Part

22:04

of it is a drive usually to be

22:06

a better person. And even, you know, if it

22:08

starts out as a selfish way to do

22:10

that, if you do religion right, it'll

22:13

move us toward the other centered

22:15

ways that you mentioned, towards service,

22:17

toward love, toward compassion. And

22:19

those things, research shows and religion knew

22:21

a long time ago, will bring you

22:23

joy. But there's

22:25

another part to this, right? Part of

22:27

being a better person is making the

22:29

society the world a better

22:31

place to, ensuring justice, healing

22:33

divides. Basically, being an

22:36

active force for good in Judaism,

22:38

I think the idea is

22:40

of, you know, tikkun olam, repairing

22:42

the world. Do you

22:44

see that as an essential part of

22:46

being a spiritual person? I

22:51

think it is central aspiration.

22:55

So anybody who read about the

22:57

crusades knows the ways the religion

22:59

can be turned into awful things. Rabbi

23:02

Jonathan Saxe died maybe two years

23:04

ago. He was the official

23:06

rabbi of Great Britain. He

23:08

said that we have religious wars because

23:10

not because they're religious, because religions are

23:12

groups. And groups

23:15

tend to fight with one another. And

23:17

so I don't want to say

23:19

that religions being groupish are going to

23:21

lead to eternal peace. It's obviously

23:23

not true. But

23:26

I do think I'll just speak to

23:28

myself. raised my hopes

23:30

for what I make in my life. I

23:34

have a little nonprofit called

23:36

Leave the Social Fabric Project, and

23:38

we celebrate people who live

23:40

lives of incredible altruism. They serve

23:42

their communities, they serve the

23:44

poor, and I'd say half are

23:46

religious, and half are not religious. But

23:49

in some of the religious

23:51

ones, I notice almost an astounding

23:53

level of endurance. I

23:55

think faith gives an extra boost to

23:57

those who are really leading lives

23:59

of sacrificial service. And again,

24:01

I know plenty of people are

24:03

secular who lead amazing lives,

24:06

but somehow I just noticed that

24:08

willing to totally unself yourself

24:10

is sometimes boosted by people of

24:12

profound faith. But

24:14

how do you do it

24:16

right? And the reason I

24:18

ask that is because we

24:20

all know people who profess

24:22

deep faith, who can be

24:24

quite cruel and dishonest. Yeah.

24:28

And I would say they don't have what

24:30

they call the fruits of the Spirit. It's

24:33

very powerful, and I see

24:35

it in my political coverage every

24:37

day, to have a faith that's

24:39

more in each other than Jesus. That's

24:42

really about the world's power. I'm

24:44

simplifying each other, I'm not

24:46

doing credit, but I do think

24:48

when you get people with

24:50

a siege mentality who feel their

24:53

status, their safety is under

24:55

threat, their views are under threat.

24:58

they will throw out the Gospels

25:00

for the sake of power. Are

25:03

those fruits of the Spirit, those

25:06

numinous experiences you talk about?

25:08

Because we know, and I'm not

25:10

going to make a claim

25:13

of where it comes from, but

25:15

we know from the scientific

25:17

literature that feeling awe, feeling gratitude,

25:20

those things make

25:22

us more other -oriented,

25:24

more moral, more

25:26

honest. I

25:28

do think those emotions

25:31

of all -in -wonder drive us

25:33

toward something beyond ourselves. They

25:36

can choose humility, always a

25:38

good thing, but then they elevate

25:40

aspiration. When

25:42

I had my moments, it wasn't like I

25:44

had a mystery solved. I

25:47

had a mysterious realm opened up. And

25:50

I think all -in -wonder sort of

25:52

points you in that, oh, there's something

25:54

grander here that I don't understand. And

25:57

that's bound to, I hope, elevate your

25:59

spirit. The

26:02

phrase fruits of the spirit is the one I

26:04

learned 10 or 15 years ago. And

26:06

I don't know how to express it,

26:08

except sometimes you meet people that are

26:10

just wonderfully joyous. And they

26:12

radiate joy all the time. I

26:17

once was seated in a

26:19

Washington think tank next to the

26:21

Dalai Lama. And

26:23

it was odd because he didn't say anything

26:26

profound to me at all. I was hoping like

26:28

words of wisdom. But he just

26:30

started laughing and he would laugh and it was

26:32

awkward. So I would laugh and he would laugh

26:34

and I would laugh. But

26:37

just to be around that guy, I think

26:39

that's the fruits of the spirit. And he

26:41

plus hours and hours of meditation every day.

26:43

And he just greets the world

26:46

with joy. That's sort

26:48

of default all wonder,

26:50

gratitude, joy. Do

26:55

you think in your case did

26:58

you find faith or did faith

27:00

find you and by that I

27:02

mean Why you why did you

27:04

have these experiences? Do you think

27:06

and and is it just as

27:08

likely to happen to anyone? I

27:12

think it's like it happened to

27:14

anyone. Believe me. I live a

27:16

pretty mundane shallow life. I don't

27:18

think of myself as a spiritually

27:20

or emotionally deep guy, so I'm

27:22

not like some spiritual giant who's

27:24

experiencing the farthest intimations of the

27:26

universe. And

27:29

I guess it, you know, Christian Wyman who I've

27:31

heard before, he said, I searched for God, or

27:33

is it you searching for me? And

27:35

it's really hard to tell the difference between those

27:37

two things. Some

27:40

people I know deeply want to

27:42

be religious, but as a friend

27:44

of mine says, I just never experienced anything like that. I

27:46

just don't have the gene. And

27:48

I would have considered myself in that camp

27:50

for a long time. And so

27:52

it came as a bit of

27:54

a surprise how it happened.

27:56

It hasn't really altered my life

27:58

all that much, but I

28:00

hope it's maybe a little deeper

28:02

and frankly a little more

28:04

capable of feeling and which is

28:07

a good thing to have. I

28:10

would say religion has had that effect of

28:12

making sometimes really happy and sometimes really sad.

28:15

And so I hope it was totally like

28:17

my will. And it made it happen because

28:20

I didn't particularly chase it. I didn't decide

28:22

this year, my New Year's resolution, I'm going

28:24

to be religious by the end the year. Some

28:27

people describe faith as a series of

28:29

convictions, like I have these certain ideas

28:32

and I believe in them. But

28:34

I think a lot of people experience it

28:36

as a longing, as a form of longing.

28:40

To me, faith is more like falling in love

28:42

than it is deciding which card of eye. It

28:44

was more a submission to, I

28:46

would say, Things that are

28:48

the deeper parts in line. It's like so

28:50

many of our growth periods. It's

28:53

an interaction And for

28:55

people like your friend who

28:57

who hasn't had the

28:59

experience but just feels like

29:02

they they can't believe

29:04

you know in In

29:06

my realm, being a social scientist, I have

29:08

a lot of people who say, well, Dave,

29:10

there's no evidence for this. And so William

29:12

James, the father of modern psychology, as you

29:14

know, in quotes, spent a lot of time

29:16

studying religious experiences, something I'm trying to get

29:18

my colleagues to do. And

29:21

he had this notion of something called an

29:23

over belief, by which

29:25

he meant beliefs for which you

29:27

lack sufficient evidence, but which

29:29

are justified in adopting because of

29:31

their beneficial effects. And

29:33

here he said, our feelings, our

29:35

emotions, our type of evidence. And

29:37

so for him, choosing to believe

29:39

in this case in the spiritual

29:41

was quite rational because there was

29:43

no evidence clearly contradicting it. And

29:46

as he saw it, there were some

29:48

benefits to it. And I think, you

29:50

know, these centuries later, we're seeing that,

29:52

right? People who are engaged in religion,

29:54

not just saying, I believe in God,

29:56

but are engaged in religion, have

29:58

better physical health, mental health

30:01

outcomes, find more meaning, find

30:03

more joy in life. And

30:05

so, do you

30:07

think that sometimes belief

30:09

and rationality get in

30:11

the way? In

30:14

my life every day, I

30:17

think rationality is a

30:19

great blessing, but also a

30:21

great intimidator. The

30:24

fact that many, many, many brilliant,

30:26

brilliant people believe it is not

30:29

proof of anything, but it's a

30:31

little hint that they maybe they're

30:33

on to something. At least

30:35

it's a hint not to take the attitude that

30:37

there's nothing rational here. There's nothing

30:39

evidence -based here. Like

30:42

William James and others can say, well,

30:44

there's no evidence here. But Thomas

30:46

Aquinas was a pretty bright guy. I

30:49

mean, he believed. Justin was

30:51

soundly brilliant. He believed Pascal

30:53

was the greatest mathematician of

30:55

his age. And he had

30:57

what he called his night of

31:00

fire when he felt holiness pervading him.

31:04

I have a friend and when her

31:06

first child was born, she realized

31:08

she loved her more than evolution required.

31:11

And I've always liked that because obviously

31:13

we are evolved creatures and we

31:16

evolve to cooperate and do all the

31:18

things that our genes want us

31:20

to do. But to me,

31:22

that logic has never really explained human

31:24

life. It doesn't explain

31:26

the altruistic goodness I see

31:28

in people all around me.

31:31

And so I've always thought evolution

31:33

obviously guides our behavior. And

31:35

I read evolution, a psychologist on

31:37

love. I never think they get

31:40

the whole part of it. And

31:42

so to me, the

31:44

beauty of religion, like the beauty of love, grow

31:46

out of how we were made. And

31:48

we were made, as Augustine said, as

31:50

a desiring creature, as longing

31:52

for something beyond. The

31:58

human capacity for awe and

32:00

wonder is very old, much

32:02

more so than institutional religion.

32:05

But religion can provide a

32:08

framework to understand that awe

32:10

and to channel it. So

32:12

if you're one of the 30 % who

32:14

have had a spiritual illumination and aren't sure

32:16

what to make of it, know

32:18

that it doesn't have to fundamentally change

32:21

your life. You don't need to

32:23

join a monastery or give away all your

32:25

belongings to honor it. Like

32:27

David, You can choose simply to yearn

32:29

for the divine as you live

32:31

your life, and realize that some

32:33

days it might be a bit

32:35

further away than you'd like. But

32:38

the wisdom in religious traditions can

32:40

provide a framework. To

32:42

use that spiritual experience to

32:44

grow, it'll help you

32:46

set your moral compass. And

32:48

so even if you get blown off course now

32:51

and again, you can find your

32:53

way back to your true north. And

32:55

if you're like me and the other

32:57

70 % of people who haven't had

32:59

a spiritual experience, and probably just see

33:01

the 33rd Street subway station as the

33:03

drags of New York City, that's

33:05

okay too. Gratitude,

33:07

awe, love, and kindness,

33:10

these are things we can all cultivate. You

33:13

can buy the science -backed wisdom these

33:15

offer, even while you're debating whether

33:17

they're gifts from God. In

33:20

the end, they'll lead to

33:22

the same place. Next

33:27

time on How God Works, the

33:30

belief that consciousness exists beyond

33:32

the human mind in trees,

33:34

animals, maybe even the

33:37

tiniest particles of matter might

33:39

sound pretty out there. But

33:41

it's not as new as you

33:43

might think. It seems like something that

33:45

we might call hippie in a

33:47

slightly derogatory way. But actually, it's the

33:49

position that the majority of humans

33:51

have probably adopted across the majority of

33:53

countries over the majority of history. Now,

33:56

some philosophers and scientists are

33:58

giving that ancient idea a second

34:00

look and asking whether it

34:02

can help explain the nature of

34:04

reality. I don't think we

34:06

can get consciousness out of physics.

34:09

That project has gone nowhere, but we

34:11

can get physics out of consciousness. We

34:13

know that can be done. How

34:16

God Works is hosted by me,

34:18

Dave Disteno. This episode was written by

34:20

Josie Holtzman and me. Our

34:22

senior producer is Josie Holtzman. Our

34:25

producer is Sophie Eisenberg. Our

34:27

associate producer is Immanuel

34:29

Dazaarme. Executive producer is Genevieve

34:31

Sponsler. Merritt Jacob is

34:33

our mix engineer and composed art theme,

34:35

which was arranged by Chloe Disteno. The

34:38

executive producer of PRX Productions

34:40

is Jocelyn Gonzalez. This

34:42

podcast was also made possible with

34:44

support from the John Templeton Foundation. To

34:47

learn more about the show and

34:49

access episode transcripts, you can find

34:52

our website at HowGodWorks, all one

34:54

word, And for news

34:56

and peeks at what's coming, feel

34:58

free to follow us on

35:00

Instagram at HowGodWorksPod or me on

35:02

X or Blue Sky at

35:04

David Disteno. On

35:13

his podcast Chasing Life, I'm Dr.

35:15

Sanjay Gupta. CNN's chief medical correspondent

35:17

brings you the secrets of the

35:19

happiest and healthiest people on the

35:21

planet so that you can live

35:24

your best life. Are some people

35:26

just born happier than others? And

35:28

what might they be doing that the

35:30

rest of us aren't? Follow Chasing

35:32

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