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That's a-l-t-r-a-running.com. Hello

2:56

and welcome to the advice line

2:58

on how I built this lab.

3:00

I'm Guy Ross. This is the

3:02

place where we help try to

3:04

solve your business challenges. And each

3:06

week, I'm joined by a legendary

3:08

founder, a former guest on the

3:10

show, who will help me try

3:12

to help you. And so if

3:14

you are building something and you

3:16

need advice, go ahead and give

3:18

us a call and you might

3:20

just be the next guest on

3:22

the show. Our number is 1-800-4-33-1-298.

3:24

Send us a one-minute message with

3:26

your name a bit about your

3:28

business and the issues or questions

3:30

that you'd like help with. Or

3:32

you can send us a voice

3:34

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3:36

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3:38

You can sign up for free

3:40

at gueras.com or on sub stack

3:42

and we'll put all this info

3:44

in the podcast description. All right,

3:46

let's go. Joining me this week

3:48

is Travis Boersma. He's the co-founder

3:50

of one of the country's most

3:52

popular coffee chains, Dutch bro. Travis,

3:54

great to have you back on

3:56

the show. Great to be back,

3:58

man. So Travis, you were a

4:00

guest on how I built this

4:02

back in 2023. And by the

4:04

way, if you guys haven't heard

4:06

that story, type in Dutch Bros.

4:08

and HIVT and Google. to find

4:10

it. And of course we'll put

4:12

a link in the episode description.

4:14

It is such an awesome story.

4:16

And I think we even say

4:18

together in that episode, right? Is

4:20

that right? Some cat Stevens? I

4:22

think we did. Yeah. We did.

4:24

Well, I left my happy home

4:26

to see what I could find

4:28

out. And anyway, all the crazy.

4:30

ups and downs and of course

4:32

today Dutch pros is a massive

4:34

business 900 to over I think

4:36

over 900 locations across the US

4:38

right yeah we're at 975 it's

4:40

so amazing congrats on that um

4:42

anyway Travis one of the things

4:44

that that I think will probably

4:46

come up at the calls today

4:48

is this idea of of taking

4:50

baby steps you know like like

4:52

you and your brother Dane started

4:54

out with an espresso cart I

4:56

mean, literally a push cart in

4:58

a parking lot, and you know,

5:00

some people might have a food

5:02

truck, and then they want to

5:04

transition to a brick and mortar,

5:06

right? And that's a different beast,

5:08

because now you're talking about rent

5:10

and you're talking about, you know,

5:12

hiring a team, and it's just

5:14

a different level of stress. How

5:16

did you guys kind of deal

5:18

with that transition when you went

5:20

from the espresso card to an

5:22

actual store? Was that, in retrospect,

5:24

one of the hardest things that

5:26

you think you think you think

5:28

you think you did? I don't

5:30

think so. I mean, it's kind

5:32

of like learning how to walk.

5:34

You got to start crawling and

5:36

then you start balancing out and

5:38

then eventually you make steps and

5:40

you fall down, you pick yourself

5:42

up. That's what it is with

5:44

any kind of business. We went

5:46

from push cart to an enclosed

5:48

mobile unit that you could still

5:51

move to different locations if you

5:53

wanted to, but where we found

5:55

our niche was the drive-through model.

5:57

And you know, we were one

5:59

of the pioneers, I think. of

6:01

drive-through coffee. And so that was something

6:03

that was a real differentiator for

6:05

us, and it ended up evolving

6:08

into a brick-and-more kind of building,

6:10

and that's really served us. You

6:12

guys decided at one point in

6:14

the business to move away from a

6:17

franchise model to a model

6:19

where shops are actually corporate-owned

6:21

that run by Dutch Bros. employees who've

6:23

been promoted up through the ranks,

6:26

so similar to like a chick

6:28

fillet or in and out. It's

6:30

not something that a lot of

6:32

to a model where shops are

6:34

actually corporate-owned that run by

6:36

Dutch Bros. employees who've

6:38

been promoted up through

6:41

the ranks are similar

6:43

to like a chick fillet

6:45

or in and out. It's not

6:47

something that a lot of brands

6:49

do. Why do you think that

6:51

model works better for you? Well,

6:53

I think the thing that was always

6:56

most important to me. was scaling

6:58

the culture and doing the right

7:01

thing for the people. And so, you

7:03

know, all the people that we have

7:05

in our organization, they're the ones who

7:07

make it what it is. They're

7:09

the ones who provide the experience.

7:11

They're the ones who have the

7:13

fire in the belly, the operational

7:15

know-how, the ability to cultivate culture

7:17

and lead people. And, you know,

7:20

we made a decision back in

7:22

2008 to only grow from within

7:24

and not self-franchises any longer to

7:26

anybody else because while... Some people had

7:28

great business acumen teaching the culture

7:30

and scaling the culture. That's just different

7:32

in nature. It's interesting because if you want

7:35

to grow fast, the franchise model is a

7:37

good way to do it. I mean, you

7:39

look at five guys, you look at Dave's

7:42

Hot Chicken, we've told both those stories in

7:44

the show, and that's worked for them at

7:46

the end of the day, like their growth

7:48

has been explosive. You guys have

7:50

still managed to grow and grew quickly.

7:53

with that corporate own model which requires

7:55

more money. Eventually you had to

7:57

take on outside investment. I think

7:59

you've resisted. for about 25 years.

8:01

Well, we never had to do anything.

8:03

We chose to. And that's the beauty

8:05

in business. You know, I don't think

8:08

there's a wrong way. And in the

8:10

way that you grow, I think that

8:12

there's just ways that are better for

8:15

some than others. And for us with

8:17

our model, the company-owned model made the

8:19

most sense to scale and grow, protect

8:22

and cultivate the culture. Yeah, for sure.

8:24

Travis, why don't we bring in our

8:26

first caller and find out how we

8:29

can help him? Sounds great. Sounds great.

8:31

All right, caller, hello, welcome to the

8:33

advice line. You're on with me and

8:36

Travis Borsma. Please tell us your name,

8:38

where you're calling from, and just a

8:40

little bit about your business. Hey, Guy,

8:42

hey, Travis, thanks for having me on.

8:45

My name is Sean Chang. I'm calling

8:47

from Atlanta, Georgia. I'm the co-founder of

8:49

Mucca, Korean-American, and restaurant. We use southern

8:52

classics like fried chicken, mac and mac

8:54

and cheese, slaw, mixed with Korean flavors,

8:56

mixed with Korean flavors, Love it. Well,

8:59

well, thanks for calling in Sean. So,

9:01

Mukja, Korean fried chicken. And I say

9:03

this only because I've been to Korea,

9:06

but I think Korean fried chicken, like

9:08

traditionally is just like lightly, like light

9:10

coating of cornstarch or potato starch and

9:13

fried, right? But this is not. This

9:15

is actually southern fried chicken, so like

9:17

flour and dredge and stuff. Exactly, so

9:19

on our menu we showcase two different

9:22

ways. The first one is southern fried

9:24

chicken, but with kind of Korean flavors

9:26

infused in that batter as well, as

9:29

well as the specialized double frying method.

9:31

Southern fried chicken traditionally, it's low and

9:33

slow for a long time. But Korean,

9:36

it's high heat, you're cooking it initially

9:38

once, almost flash fried, letting it cool

9:40

down to have all that moisture on

9:43

the excess side, uplift from the inside,

9:45

and then refrying to order so that

9:47

it gets that final crisp on that

9:50

final crisp on that outside. Awesome. So

9:52

tell me about the business. How'd you

9:54

how'd you start it? How'd you get

9:57

into this? Yeah, it actually starts kind

9:59

of sad. I was at my first

10:01

year at Georgia. University of Georgia in

10:03

2016. My second semester I was in

10:06

a motor vehicle accident on my way

10:08

home that left me paralyzed from the

10:10

waist down and in that moment I

10:13

remember thinking oh man what is life

10:15

going to be like the doctor told

10:17

me I had about a 99% chance

10:20

that I would never walk again and

10:22

so being the realist that I am

10:24

I said okay am I'm I gonna

10:27

spend my entire life trying at 1%

10:29

to walk again or continue my life

10:31

despite this injury. And actually during my

10:34

time at Georgia I was cooking for

10:36

people at my freshman dorm on the

10:38

weekends and cooking was something that I

10:40

was passionate about that I've been exposed

10:43

to since I was little, that brought

10:45

a bunch of people in and said,

10:47

wow, I never had Korean food before,

10:50

but I love this. And with that,

10:52

I said, okay, I want to change

10:54

my degree from this med school path

10:57

that I was taking at Georgia to

10:59

hospitality at Georgia State University. Dude, I

11:01

love that. That's amazing. Do you, do

11:04

you use a wheelchair? Do you use

11:06

a wheelchair? Do you use a wheelchair?

11:08

So you've had to adjust sort of

11:11

how you cook, right? Lower down countertops

11:13

and things like that? Exactly. You could

11:15

do everything. Exactly. Right? Yeah, what a

11:18

phenomenal story. Okay, so you decide to

11:20

kind of shift, entirely shift, and now,

11:22

and you've got a brick and mortar

11:24

shop, it's like you go in and

11:27

order food there? Exactly, we have a

11:29

brick and mortar in the heart of

11:31

Atlanta. All right, so tell us what

11:34

question you brought for us today, see

11:36

if we can help. Sure. So what

11:38

margins becoming thinner and thinner in the

11:41

restaurant industry, we find our original strategy

11:43

of delivery becoming highly unsustainable with delivery

11:45

apps like Uber and Nordash taking margins

11:48

specifically in the city up to 50%

11:50

50% Yeah. So it's 30% on their

11:52

end and 20% more to be on

11:55

the marketplace. You got to pay to

11:57

be on the marketplace, right? You get

11:59

for a good position on the app.

12:01

Exactly. Wow. You're basically subsidizing your... food

12:04

to the customer. Exactly and that's why

12:06

it's it wasn't always like that but

12:08

recently it's become more and more aggressive

12:11

to where you know where they're slightly

12:13

bumping it up a little bit higher

12:15

by a couple percentage, but you have

12:18

all these other thousands of restaurants in

12:20

a major city that you're competing against.

12:22

So you have to cough up more

12:25

of that margin in order to be

12:27

on that front page. So with that

12:29

being said, we know that we have

12:32

to lean off these platforms to more

12:34

of a traditional setting, whether it's dying

12:36

in takeout or catering. In today's market,

12:38

common wisdom says marketing is key. However,

12:41

we're a bit lost on how to

12:43

navigate that effectively. What is y'all's advice

12:45

on genuine and effective customer acquisition? This

12:48

is a tough one, Travis, because you

12:50

guys, I'm sure Dutch Bros. uses Dordash

12:52

and Uber, it beats because you're a

12:55

huge business and by and large they

12:57

can work, but for a small business,

12:59

it can be really tough, right? So

13:02

any questions for Sean first before we

13:04

tackle his? Well, first of all, man,

13:06

I am ready to try some Korean

13:09

French. It sounds great. I'm like, holy

13:11

smokes, dude, I'm ready. So really cool

13:13

concept, love the niche. And, you know,

13:16

we, to be honest with you, we

13:18

refrained from Dordash all these years and

13:20

in, um... Mobile order has been a

13:22

big deal for us and order ahead

13:25

and that's what we've incorporated just this

13:27

last year We're late to the game,

13:29

but kind of intentional with it You

13:32

know your own your own app so

13:34

people can go directly through your app

13:36

to do it rather than through a

13:39

third party That's that's right. You know

13:41

and in there's no doubt. I mean

13:43

what happens in a situation like we're

13:46

we're in with restaurants is the strong

13:48

will survive and a lot of lot

13:50

of people will be washed out. So

13:53

if you can figure out a way

13:55

to stay alive and keep on keeping

13:57

on and find that niche. Sean are

13:59

you're profitable right now and if so

14:02

is your margin healthy? So we were

14:04

profitable for the past two years. This

14:06

year has been one. of the most

14:09

challenging, we've seen our chicken cost just

14:11

exponentially explode. I'm talking more than double

14:13

for all across the board, some even

14:16

triple. And with the reduction of sales

14:18

to some degree, we're not bleeding out.

14:20

We're just breaking even. So we went

14:23

from 10% to just maybe two to

14:25

three percent this year, which we're still

14:27

thankful for. So we are definitely just.

14:30

in hustle mode of trying to figure

14:32

out different avenues and recently we just

14:34

this past months we launched our corporate

14:37

catering partnerships where we said hey it

14:39

might be just easier to go to

14:41

these major you know multi-million dollar companies

14:43

that are already having a budget to

14:46

feed their employees and just locked them

14:48

in on a month-to-month basis taking out

14:50

the middleman services. So like tomorrow we're

14:53

supplying for a beauty supply store for

14:55

70 employees and they love the food

14:57

so much. At first they were unsure

15:00

because they were like fried chicken 20-minute

15:02

delivery it might not be delicious. And

15:04

I said here on my dollar on

15:07

my time let me feed upper management

15:09

and have you guys try our food

15:11

and they locked us in for a

15:14

$1,400 contract like that and said hey

15:16

we want you every month. That's awesome.

15:18

Great job. I think, you know, that

15:20

if you're going out and doing some

15:23

catering and doing some fun cool events

15:25

like that, that's a great way to

15:27

market your product and word of mouth

15:30

with where you add in the beginning

15:32

is something that we took huge advantage

15:34

of. And of course, when I did

15:37

it, it's gosh 30 plus years ago

15:39

we didn't have the channels like YouTube

15:41

and and Instagram and Tiktok and but

15:44

but I think you can do some

15:46

creative things in those spaces and if

15:48

you can get some people that are

15:51

ambassadors to your brand to help you

15:53

with that that's a great way to

15:55

go about it costs you very very

15:57

little if anything at all. Sean, I've

16:00

got a radical idea for you, okay?

16:02

I love that you're leaning into the

16:04

catering and you should keep doing that,

16:07

okay? But I keep going back to

16:09

an episode we did with... hot chicken,

16:11

the way they got that brand to

16:14

take off, because they started in a

16:16

parking lot in East Hollywood, okay, literally

16:18

with bunsden burners and, you know, like

16:21

Costco fold-up table. They invited, they sent

16:23

an email, cold email, to a guy

16:25

who sent an email, cold email, to

16:28

a guy who wrote for eater, LA,

16:30

and they said, hey, we love your

16:32

stuff. You want to try the best

16:35

chicken sandwich come. He came, he wrote

16:37

an article two days later, and that

16:39

was it. and I think there's an

16:41

opportunity for you to try something interesting

16:44

and that might not be through the

16:46

Korean fried chicken. It might be, but

16:48

that might not be the way in.

16:51

There is, there's an opportunity here, and

16:53

I want you to think about this,

16:55

okay, to introduce one or two new

16:58

items to your menu that no one's

17:00

doing, I remember when I was in

17:02

Seoul, I had this snack, it was

17:05

like a fried donut filled with nuts

17:07

and sugar, like melting sugar, I think

17:09

it's called like hoktok. Do you know

17:12

what I'm talking about? That is absolutely

17:14

one of my favorite desserts. It's amazing,

17:16

it's like a fried funnel cake filled

17:18

with sweet, surupi, sugar and pecans. There's

17:21

another one, it's like shaped like a

17:23

like a waffle fish stuffed with like

17:25

cold, delicious custard. Why don't you consider

17:28

doing something like that and seeing if

17:30

you can get some hype around that?

17:32

Yeah, that's definitely a wonderful idea. I

17:35

think our challenge is because we retrofitted

17:37

a space that was a second-gen restaurant

17:39

space, we're having trouble with the ability

17:42

on our line to add new products

17:44

right now. That is the hardest issue.

17:46

That's why even with our catering, we

17:49

have the storage space on back to

17:51

do salads and things like that people

17:53

are asking for. But a dessert program,

17:55

it's funny that you bring this up

17:58

because people have been asking for it

18:00

all the time. You just need a

18:02

flat griddle. Yeah. need a flat griddle.

18:05

I mean literally these are street vendors

18:07

with like you know four by four

18:09

area right? Exactly. Yep. Yeah one of

18:12

the one of the things that I

18:14

keep thinking about is you know custom

18:16

acquisition obviously very challenging especially harder now.

18:19

It's more expensive social media is not

18:21

as effective as it was four or

18:23

five years ago. But there is a

18:26

model and I've used this example in

18:28

in seminars in seminars. There's an episode

18:30

we did on We. We as a,

18:33

it happens to be a, it started

18:35

out as an Asian food delivery service.

18:37

Now it's like all kinds of ethnic

18:39

foods. I'm sure it's available in Atlanta.

18:42

Larry Liu is a founder. And what

18:44

they did to get, to get more

18:46

customers was, if you ordered from We,

18:49

right, online, they would send you a

18:51

link with a code. And you could

18:53

send that to a friend. And if

18:56

the friend used the code. to order,

18:58

they would get 15% off their order

19:00

and you would get cash back like

19:03

$5 or something. Something significant. It cost

19:05

we a lot of money. It put

19:07

them in the red for three months.

19:10

But their customer acquisition as a result

19:12

of that was so enormous that they

19:14

became profitable in six months and I

19:16

think they've been profitable ever since. I'm

19:19

not saying that's easy to do and

19:21

obviously you're a small business and they

19:23

were too at the time. They were

19:26

really small. But if there's a way

19:28

to, where your customers come in and

19:30

you hand them a card or something,

19:33

and you say, look, give this to

19:35

somebody, and if they use this code,

19:37

you know, and you sign up for

19:40

our loyalty club, we'll give you a

19:42

discount next time you come in, or

19:44

we'll give you some cash back or

19:47

something, just experiment with things like that

19:49

because it's the word of mouth that

19:51

is the most valuable form of marketing.

19:54

Yeah, I definitely agree about the power

19:56

of word of word of mouth. are

19:58

using. Some aspects of that in our

20:00

email marketing where we just laid out

20:03

the math very simple. I said, hey,

20:05

there's, for example, 3,500 of you guys.

20:07

If you guys just shared two people

20:10

that who've never tried Korean fried chicken

20:12

or Korean flavors, man, that 7,000 new

20:14

customers or people exposed to Korean flavors

20:17

right off the bat. Super cool. Sean

20:19

Chang'a, Korean fried chicken in Atlanta. Congrats

20:21

on what you built, man. We're cheering,

20:24

we're cheering you on. We're cheering you

20:26

on. Thank you. I appreciate it so

20:28

much. It was a blast to actually

20:31

just talk with y'all today. Wow. Love

20:33

it. I love it. Pretty cool. It's

20:35

just so cool. I mean, I don't

20:37

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20:40

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20:42

it, but I mean, you've been through

20:44

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20:49

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20:51

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20:54

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20:56

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20:58

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21:01

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21:03

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21:05

right back with another caller and another

21:08

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work at canva.com. Welcome back to

24:03

the advice line on how I

24:05

built this lab. I'm Guy Ross and

24:08

my guest today is Dutch Bro's

24:10

Coffee co-founder Travis Boursma.

24:12

Travis why don't we

24:14

take another call? Sounds

24:16

great. Hello welcome to

24:18

the advice line. Please

24:20

introduce yourself your name,

24:22

where you're calling from and

24:25

just a little bit about

24:27

your business. Hi, my name is

24:29

Trenton Yoder. I am calling from

24:32

Belleville, Pennsylvania. My wife and I

24:34

are the founders of Pine Ridge

24:36

Coffee. We are a coffee roaster

24:38

and cafe and our goal is

24:40

to bring people together around a

24:42

quality cup of coffee. Amazing, okay,

24:44

we got the right person here

24:46

for you, Trenton. First of all,

24:48

a couple questions, where is Belleville? Pennsylvania.

24:51

It is pretty much right in the

24:53

middle. So the closest, I guess, major

24:55

area to us would be state college,

24:58

so that I'm with Penn State University,

25:00

but it's about three hours to Pittsburgh

25:02

and about three hours to Philadelphia. Awesome.

25:05

Okay, cool. And it's a coffee roastry.

25:07

Is it a shop? Is it a

25:09

store that you have? Yeah. So we

25:12

have one brick and mortar location and

25:14

then we have a mobile unit as

25:16

well. A truck. Yes. And does a

25:18

truck constantly drive around or does it

25:20

do events or what? We do a mix of

25:23

events and then we also have some regular

25:25

spots in some other areas that we set

25:27

up in as well. Nice. Okay, so tell

25:29

me a little bit about how you got

25:31

into this business. Yeah, so I just kind

25:33

of always enjoyed coffee. I have a

25:35

lot of memories of just, you know,

25:37

spending time with friends or family, you

25:39

know, with coffee. There's a picture. I

25:41

was probably four or five years old

25:43

fishing with my dad and my dad

25:45

and my sister and I had a

25:47

little... thermost cup full of coffee. And

25:50

so, you know, as I went through

25:52

college I got more and more interested

25:54

in, you know, the process of roasting

25:56

coffee and I've always had

25:58

a really entrepreneurial. bug, you

26:00

know, I've always wanted to have my

26:02

own business. So in, yeah, October of

26:05

2022, it's kind of when we began

26:07

this journey. And what were you doing

26:09

before? I was a financial controller for

26:11

a roofing contractor, so that was like

26:14

a good opportunity just to kind of

26:16

learn the workings of a business. Nice,

26:18

okay, cool. And tell me, what's your

26:21

question for us today? Yeah, so my

26:23

question is, we seem to have a

26:25

really strong following locally within our immediate

26:27

area. We have struggled to get that

26:30

same success outside of the area. Moving

26:32

forward, we're hoping to grow the roasting

26:34

side of our business. So my question

26:36

is, would you go direct to consumer

26:39

or pursue other wholesale partners, you know,

26:41

other coffee shops or distributors and seeking

26:43

out like grocery stores? All right, last

26:46

time packed there, let's bring Travis and

26:48

Travis, we can either answer this question

26:50

or me, you might have some more

26:52

questions. I mean it's such an amazing

26:55

business. I've had great joy in being

26:57

in this this industry and how many

26:59

varietals are you guys roasting? So right

27:01

now we have about eight different coffees

27:04

that we're roasting so that's probably three

27:06

or four single origins in three or

27:08

four blends. Awesome. You know when you

27:10

have your blends and your varietals and

27:13

you've got your roaster and you think

27:15

you're packaging and the shelf life and

27:17

your consumers, your story I think is

27:20

so critical to your success, you know,

27:22

and what's the purpose or the why

27:24

behind what you're doing. So if you're

27:26

looking at, you know, a rostry and

27:29

being a wholesaler versus a retailer, I

27:31

think that's dynamically different. Do you have

27:33

one way or the other that you're

27:35

looking at more so? Yeah, I think,

27:38

you know, if we're looking, say, five

27:40

years from now, if we have our

27:42

one brick and mortar and then we

27:45

have... a big direct-to-consumer business. That's something

27:47

that that gets me more excited. The

27:49

dream is that we have a national

27:51

footprint as far as where we're going,

27:54

especially with our online sales. What? I

27:56

mean, look, let's be honest here. We've

27:58

had coffee brands on the show. There's

28:00

a lot of coffee in, it's like

28:03

micro brewed beer. There's a lot of

28:05

small breweries all over the United States,

28:07

a lot of small coffee roasters across

28:09

the US. Doesn't mean there are, I

28:12

say, well, I'm in San Francisco, I've

28:14

got four barrels and ritual, why yours,

28:16

what's your answer? Yeah, I mean we've

28:19

just found a way with our roasting

28:21

process. It's you know small batch roasted

28:23

It's allows us to really keep an

28:25

eye on quality It doesn't you know

28:28

give you a bitter after taste even

28:30

like our darker roast it finishes really

28:32

smooth And it's just about you know,

28:34

we really care about the quality of

28:37

our coffee Travis your thoughts I would

28:39

really dig deep, like how can you

28:41

paint a picture for somebody that really

28:43

looks at it and says, oh, here

28:46

we go. Here's something really exclusive, unique,

28:48

fun, cool. I want to give it

28:50

a try. I totally agree with that,

28:53

Travis. I mean, I'm looking at your

28:55

website and you got to convey that.

28:57

I mean, I don't think you need

28:59

to spend tons of money on bells

29:02

and whistles on your site, but you

29:04

have to make it clear about all

29:06

the things you just said. Let me

29:08

make an analogy with wine. You can

29:11

get the best grapes, the best harvest

29:13

that season and give it to a

29:15

really mediocre winemaker and you'll get mediocre

29:18

wine. You can get really mediocre grapes

29:20

and give it to the best winemaker

29:22

and get great wine. And what you're

29:24

telling me is you're a great winemaker.

29:27

You know how to roast coffee beans.

29:29

You believe you're in the top 10,

29:31

5, 1%. So that's a story you

29:33

need to tell because that's interesting. That

29:36

says to me. All right, this guy's

29:38

like the roasting king. I gotta try

29:40

his coffee. Yeah, so do you have

29:42

any feedback on like how we could

29:45

convey that better through our website or

29:47

through our social media channels? Yeah, I

29:49

mean. Travis, I'm thinking about how when

29:52

Dutch bros began, people would come from

29:54

Oregon and then the Pacific Northwest and

29:56

they go to other parts of the

29:58

country and be like, oh, you gotta

30:01

try this thing called Dutch bros, right?

30:03

You had these ambassadors, like that's the

30:05

kind of momentum, right, that really can

30:07

help explode a brand. And I feel

30:10

like you've got an opportunity to do

30:12

that at Penn State because it's a

30:14

massive university, culturally significant. I would try

30:16

and lean in there and see if

30:19

you can build. a critical mass that

30:21

really helps you grow this brand. Yeah,

30:23

I think that's well put. And the

30:26

other thing that I would add to

30:28

that is success leaves clues. There's so

30:30

many things you can take away from

30:32

a Chick-fil-A, a Costco, a Starbucks, for

30:35

that matter, a Dutch Bros. And you

30:37

know, when you kind of look at

30:39

all these different business models and you

30:41

admire different ones, What do you admire

30:44

about them? And can you cross-pollinate ideas

30:46

that maybe they do really well and

30:48

incorporate them into what you do? You

30:51

know, that's some of the things that

30:53

I think we've done over the years

30:55

that has been so beneficial. Yeah, we

30:57

did an episode on La Caloam coffee

31:00

many years ago. And Travis, you know

31:02

La Caloam, right? It's obviously a competitor

31:04

in some ways, but not really. But

31:06

the guys who started that brand. It

31:09

was a roastery in Philadelphia and the

31:11

way they got it got attention was

31:13

they started serving it at fine dining

31:15

restaurants in Philadelphia and then they went

31:18

to New York City and so you

31:20

you know you have customers go to

31:22

these like super fancy restaurants and they'd

31:25

say what's his coffee and it's called

31:27

La Calum and that's really how they

31:29

built it out and so Going back

31:31

to what Travis, what you were talking

31:34

about earlier with baby steps, to me,

31:36

there's an opportunity to take some of

31:38

those baby steps here. Because you believe

31:40

you've got something special, but just seeing

31:43

Pine Ridge Coffee isn't enough. And I

31:45

think you got to focus on really

31:47

building out the brand through. retailers. Yeah,

31:50

the more people that you can put

31:52

your product in front of, the better.

31:54

So yeah, I definitely really appreciate the

31:56

advice they're trying to really hone in

31:59

in the state college area and see

32:01

what we can do as far as

32:03

gaining some momentum in that market. Yeah.

32:05

Trent Yoder, Pine Ridge Coffee. Good luck,

32:08

man. Good luck, Trent. Thank you. I

32:10

appreciate your time today, guys. Thank you

32:12

very much. Thank you. It's so interesting

32:14

with coffee, right? Because when you started

32:17

in 92, it was still like espresso

32:19

drinks were still like that's when people

32:21

still said Expresso, right? Yeah. Does that

32:24

kind of an expresso? Oh my gosh.

32:26

I mean there was a yeah, it

32:28

was a massive learning curve. We're educating

32:30

people on what espresso coffees were. Yeah.

32:33

And people would have people come up

32:35

and say, um, I'll take a campachino.

32:37

And they'd look and I'm like, and

32:39

do you want that real frothy and

32:42

foamy? And they'd look at me like,

32:44

uh, and I'm like, how about I

32:46

make you a vanilla mocha? And you

32:48

check it out and see if you

32:51

like it. And if you don't, I'll

32:53

make you that cat. I love it.

32:55

Yeah. All right, we're going to take

32:58

another quick break, but we'll be right

33:00

back with another caller. Stay with us.

33:02

I'm Guy Ross and you're listening to

33:04

the the advice line, right here on

33:07

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limitations. I'm Guy Ross and

35:12

today I'm taking your calls

35:14

with Dutch Broz, Travis Borsma,

35:16

Travis, let's get back into

35:18

it and take another call.

35:20

Sounds great. Hello, welcome to

35:23

the advice line. You're on

35:25

with Travis Borsma of Dutch

35:27

Broz. Hello, please introduce yourself.

35:29

Tell us your name where

35:31

you're calling from and just a

35:33

little bit about your business. Hi

35:35

Guy, Hey Travis, my name is

35:38

Yaszman Santos. I am the sole

35:40

founder of alternative bar. We're currently

35:42

operating as a cater bar offering

35:44

a white glove turn key solution

35:47

for events in Austin San Francisco

35:49

and Miami. Awesome. Yes, man. Thanks for

35:51

calling in. So it's alter like an

35:53

alter like at a church alter native

35:55

bar. That's right. All right. Let me

35:57

just see if I understand this. It's

35:59

like it's a bar service, so you

36:02

guys would be hired for like

36:04

a corporate event, but you don't

36:06

sell alcohol, you sell alternative non-alcoholic

36:08

beverages. That's right, yeah, we use

36:10

botanics and utropics that do facilitate

36:12

estate change as an alternative to

36:14

alcohol. All right, so basically these

36:17

are mood mind enhancing beverages. This

36:19

is not like non-alcoholic beer, these

36:21

are like... What are this, what

36:23

are this, not Ashwoganda? It's not

36:25

Alasti, it's not, it's not, magic

36:27

mushrooms or THC, it's a, it's

36:30

a, it's a thing that everybody

36:32

goes to Mexico to do. I

36:34

waska, I waska, it's like, it's

36:36

not that, but you're basically, it's

36:38

legal stuff that has a kind

36:40

of a buzz effect? powerful, I

36:42

guess, as your typical substances like

36:45

alcohol and cannabis. All right. And

36:47

so tell me how this idea

36:49

came about to start this business?

36:51

So I was the caretaker for

36:53

my mother. She had early onset

36:55

dementia. And we got to a

36:57

point where she was bedridden. And

37:00

even though she wasn't verbal, we

37:02

could tell there was a lot

37:04

of pain and discomfort. So I

37:06

started exploring non-farmaceutical. solutions for that

37:08

and came across a few and

37:10

then I was like, wait a

37:12

second, I don't drink, I have

37:15

some pains, especially like socially, I

37:17

still have social anxiety and inhibition

37:19

like anybody else. What if there

37:21

are plants that could resolve this

37:23

for me? And it came across

37:25

Kava and a few other plants

37:28

and started experimenting doing some kitchen

37:30

witchin and came across more and

37:32

more plants that really serve our

37:34

bodies. So basically right because a

37:36

lot of people use a little

37:38

bit of alcohol at a party

37:40

as a as a social lubricant

37:43

to kind of loosen them up

37:45

and You're saying you have this

37:47

challenge, which I get, because I

37:49

do too, I hate going to

37:51

parties, but you don't drink alcohol.

37:53

But this, using these herbs, kind

37:55

of helped you a little bit.

37:58

Totally. I'm using them right now.

38:00

Wow. One, Kava is, and I've

38:02

actually had some experience with Kava

38:04

and Fiji, where we sat down

38:06

and they do the whole ritual

38:08

and it's like, over the course

38:10

of hours, and it's amazing. I

38:13

mean, and you have this feeling

38:15

of like, like, like, It's almost

38:17

like a euphoric kind of outer

38:19

body experience and it's very light,

38:21

but it's incredible and it's energetic.

38:23

And all right, so you're based

38:26

in Austin and you're doing, right

38:28

now you're offering like events, like

38:30

a catered event, but like a

38:32

corporate event or a wedding where

38:34

there's this alternative bar. And who

38:36

are the kinds of clients? Who

38:38

are the people who are hiring

38:41

you? The first event we booked

38:43

was for a it's called the

38:45

Young Women's Alliance They are an

38:47

organization of professional women here in

38:49

Austin. I would say More mindful

38:51

health conscious people and and also

38:53

you know corporate wellness programs that

38:56

want to be inclusive of sober

38:58

sober curious Yeah, everybody got it.

39:00

Okay. And before I forget. What's

39:02

your question for us? I would

39:04

love any advice you have for

39:06

someone like me who's looking to

39:08

scale this business into the mainstream.

39:11

And what are some companies that

39:13

I can use as a model?

39:15

Cool. Travis Sports, I'm going to

39:17

start with you. The man from

39:19

Dutch Bros. brought it from a

39:21

coffee cart to 970 locations. Well,

39:24

I guess the first question I've

39:26

got is, do you want to

39:28

take it to the masses or

39:30

do you want to stay in

39:32

a niche market? I want to

39:34

go to the mainstream. Okay, so

39:36

does that mean like products on

39:39

shelves and grocery and things like

39:41

that? I would love to see

39:43

that as well as either the

39:45

cater bar concept or brick and

39:47

mortar in cities across the US.

39:49

I want to bring the plants

39:51

to the people. We've expanded into

39:54

CPG. We just did our first

39:56

run of an adaptogenic blend. What

39:58

is it? Like a tincture? Like

40:00

a? Yes, you got it. It's

40:02

a tincture? We've got a blend

40:04

of Rodeola and Cassandra and it

40:06

supports energy endurance and ease. Where

40:09

are you selling it? Well, do

40:11

e-commerce, of course, going to do

40:13

Shopify. And then I'd love to

40:15

get some on shelves in Austin

40:17

in San Francisco and San Francisco.

40:19

grow from there? I think, you

40:21

know, another business maybe, is it

40:24

along the same lines as maybe

40:26

taking Kim Boocha to the masses?

40:28

Where, you know, you could use

40:30

that as a model maybe of

40:32

some of the product that you

40:34

have, but that's, sounds similar to

40:37

me as far as like exposing

40:39

a product that has health properties

40:41

to it that are good for

40:43

you, that you really want to

40:45

educate people on, and that's one

40:47

of the ways. you know, espresso

40:49

coffee and 92 people didn't know

40:52

what espresso was, a lot of

40:54

people didn't know. And so we

40:56

had to educate people on it

40:58

a lot, but it got its

41:00

own momentum and certainly Starbucks helped

41:02

everybody with that. But I think,

41:04

you know, if you're looking for

41:07

a model out there, my inclination

41:09

would go to a Kimbucha company

41:11

maybe. Yeah, the other thing that

41:13

comes to mind, Travis, is Guayaki.

41:15

Guayiki, Yerbamante, which was on our

41:17

show a couple years a couple

41:19

years ago, a couple years ago.

41:22

And that was a long journey.

41:24

It's like 20 years before they

41:26

started making money because, and by

41:28

the way, that brand, right, they

41:30

started out selling loose tea, yerbamata,

41:32

two people, and they would go

41:35

to concerts and festivals. And they

41:37

started this in the 90s. And

41:39

people would try it and it

41:41

was bitter and they didn't like

41:43

it and they'd understand it. And

41:45

it was a slow methodical process.

41:47

They spent 20 years driving around

41:50

in a bus from festival to

41:52

festival. The game changer for them

41:54

at the end of the day

41:56

was making bottles. Right? And then

41:58

now they make cans and eventually

42:00

adding sugar and other flavors. But

42:02

to me, a tincture is interesting.

42:05

The bar business is interesting, but

42:07

that's hard to scale. The bar

42:09

business could be an opportunity to

42:11

introduce a product or the product

42:13

to an influential crowd. You're in

42:15

Austin, obviously South by Southwest happens

42:17

there every year. One of the

42:20

most important cultural events in the

42:22

world. you know, I think there's

42:24

a good chance that someone's going

42:26

to hire you to run a

42:28

bar at South by Southwest. What

42:30

about ready to drink beverages? You

42:33

know, what about cans or bottles

42:35

of your drink? You know, I

42:37

have considered that. I'm a long-time

42:39

listener of your show, and for

42:41

whatever reason, I can't remember what

42:43

episode it was, but I am

42:45

very intimidated by the beverage space.

42:48

That's fine. Travis, okay to be

42:50

intimidated. Yeah, you know, I think,

42:52

I mean, one of the things

42:54

is to get comfortable with being

42:56

uncomfortable. Yes. I sat down with

42:58

those guys from Guacke 25 years

43:00

ago that came to our coffee

43:03

house and we passed a bombilla

43:05

around with a gourd and a

43:07

loose leaf and I mean it

43:09

was this, it was awesome man,

43:11

I mean it was like, I

43:13

felt like I was breaking the

43:15

law but it was totally cool.

43:18

I think when you can provide

43:20

those experiences and you can go

43:22

spread your product and you see

43:24

the joy that you have with

43:26

it, I mean you're so proud

43:28

of it and that's so amazing

43:31

because when you can share that

43:33

with people. that creates momentum, focused

43:35

intensity over time, multiplied by faith

43:37

or God or whatever you want

43:39

to put in that, you know,

43:41

your creator, then it creates momentum.

43:43

And I think that, you know,

43:46

if you keep on doing what

43:48

you're doing and you just let

43:50

it evolve and you have fun

43:52

with it, enjoy it, you know,

43:54

try not to rush it, but

43:56

just be methodical about it. I

43:58

also, I love the idea, Yasmin,

44:01

that you say that you're intimidated

44:03

by this, which is, which means

44:05

that probably it might be the

44:07

right direction to go into and

44:09

pursue, right? Because, think about it

44:11

for a moment. The beverage industry

44:13

and the ready to drink is,

44:16

it's very, it's a packed industry,

44:18

right? But so is liquor, so

44:20

is coffee. There's always an opportunity.

44:22

There's always a wormhole. You can

44:24

find. And what you're talking about

44:26

is. Tiny. I mean, very few

44:29

people are doing these no tropics

44:31

drinks. It's a little weird and

44:33

different. It's like liquid death. Wait,

44:35

what? This is water? It's not

44:37

malt liquor? You know, people picked

44:39

it up because it was so

44:41

weird, right? And it now, you

44:43

know, raised it at a 1.4

44:46

billion dollar evaluation or something. So

44:48

I think that it's worth thinking

44:50

about a simple... ready to

44:52

use, ready to drink, easy

44:54

to translate into explained product.

44:56

The tincture is cool, but

44:58

it requires people to like,

45:00

okay, you put this in

45:02

water and how much, and

45:04

it's a very small crowd

45:06

of people who'd be willing to

45:08

play around with that. A can that

45:11

you open up, simple. And the

45:13

other thing is, like, the way you

45:15

told your story to us, I

45:17

think that there's so much value

45:19

in your storytelling. You know,

45:21

what can it do for you? What

45:23

are the health properties with it? Why

45:26

is this so amazing? And who are

45:28

the people that are consuming it? And

45:30

can you, you know, ride the wave

45:32

with their momentum on how they live

45:34

this healthy, extraordinary

45:37

lifestyle? You know, you've both alluded

45:39

to my approach to this business.

45:41

I serve. And what I've noticed

45:43

is that, so waves come and sets,

45:45

right, could be three, five, 12. and I've

45:48

noticed that the first waves of the set

45:50

usually aren't the best ones at least in

45:52

my experience and so the approach that I

45:54

take to surfing is I wait for my

45:56

wave like I might be a little bit

45:58

further back in the lineup and may take

46:00

a few waves to get warmed up

46:02

and an easy paddle back. And I'm

46:05

waiting for that rogue wave that I'm

46:07

perfectly positioned to take that I don't

46:09

have to compete for and have a

46:12

clear line of sight. And maybe the

46:14

RTD is that wave. It might be.

46:16

And I think as you start to

46:19

think about this idea and maybe build

46:21

out a plan, you'll have more clarity.

46:23

Do you need to raise some money?

46:26

Do you need to start asking people

46:28

for money? You know, there are... There

46:30

are plenty of people who started beverage

46:33

shrinks with very little money, you know,

46:35

five or ten grand and just do

46:37

a test run. There's obviously a lot

46:40

of co-packers out there who you know

46:42

who can work with. So I think

46:44

that it's really worth at least putting

46:47

some thought into building out the brand

46:49

because with the bartending platform, especially if

46:51

you're going to places like Miami and

46:54

San Francisco, Austin, really sort of important

46:56

places to showcase products, having something that

46:58

people can pick up could be really

47:01

cool. My heart agrees. Yeah. Well, I'll

47:03

tell you what, you know, your energy

47:05

with this is incredible, and I would

47:08

just encourage you to keep going and

47:10

asking yourself how you can perform better

47:12

and what you can do to make

47:15

it even more appealing and who are

47:17

the people that you want to have

47:19

involved in it. We use this little

47:21

ultimate success formula, it's now your specific

47:24

outcome, take massive action toward it, ask

47:26

yourself the action you're taking is working

47:28

and change until it does, and it's

47:31

like you can use that in everyday

47:33

life with anything, but that's something that

47:35

has served us in evolving and growing

47:38

and getting to this place where we

47:40

have this giant vault secret menu, if

47:42

you will, that creates all these custom...

47:45

concoctions that people really want. I think

47:47

when you identify what they want, you're

47:49

able to deliver to them. in a

47:52

way that is meaningful and has a

47:54

story behind it that they can be

47:56

proud of, you're gonna see a ton

47:59

of momentum happen. Amazing, okay. Yasmin Santos,

48:01

alter native bar, congrats, and good luck.

48:03

Can't wait to see you, you build.

48:06

Thank you so much, you both. All

48:08

right, thanks. Man, that Kava experience sounds

48:10

like, sounds like something like something like

48:13

something like something like something like something,

48:15

together for hours on end. And over

48:17

the course of time, then you can

48:20

get to this place of kind of

48:22

this euphoric, out-of-bottery kind of experience. And

48:24

it's not hallucinogenic at all. It's just

48:27

like, you know, this floating state change,

48:29

very similar to Gua Quay in a

48:31

way. Yeah, it's cool. There's a lot

48:34

of there's a lot of interest around

48:36

these neutropics and, you know, brain enhancing

48:38

herbs. And the reality is, you know,

48:41

alcohol consumption is in decline in the

48:43

United States, for better worse. I mean,

48:45

I mean, I mean, I think... that

48:48

younger people aren't drinking as much wine

48:50

or spirits. And so there may be

48:52

an opportunity. Yeah, yeah. Travis, before I

48:55

let you go, I want to ask

48:57

you a question that I've been asking

48:59

every return guest on the show. If

49:02

you could go back, you know, and

49:04

tell yourself in a younger version of

49:06

you and Dane, you know, just give

49:09

them some advice about what to expect

49:11

or, you know, or some encouragement when

49:13

you guys are starting out. and it

49:16

was tough, tough going. What would you,

49:18

what would you say to yourself? You

49:20

know what, I think the first thing

49:23

that I'd probably say is adapt or

49:25

die. Because the world is changing around

49:27

us. It's all sorts of different ways,

49:29

shape, sizes, forms. And, you know, with

49:32

COVID, it's an example of something that

49:34

you just can anticipate that hits you

49:36

and if you don't adapt. Your dad

49:39

amazing. I love it. That's Dutch Pro

49:41

coffee co-founder Travis Borsman. Travis, thanks so

49:43

much man. Thank you guy, always cool

49:46

man. Awesome having you. And by the

49:48

way, if you guys haven't heard Travis's

49:50

original, how I built this episode, again,

49:53

one of the best episodes, so good,

49:55

go back and check it out. You'll

49:57

find a link to it in the

50:00

podcast description and here is one of

50:02

my favorite moments from that interview. We

50:04

opened our first day downtown Grants Pass

50:07

Pass next to the post office and

50:09

Dane was like... I don't know if

50:11

I could do it, man. He's kind

50:14

of hiding out in the back. What

50:16

do you mean he couldn't do it?

50:18

Why? He just, I think all of

50:21

a sudden, it's just kind of all

50:23

like, oh my God, this is real,

50:25

we're doing it. Yeah. And I'm like,

50:28

hang on, dude, I'm gonna go make

50:30

you a little eight ounce mokah. Yeah.

50:32

And I put on some lead Zeppelin,

50:35

going to California. And I got him

50:37

a coffee. And I said, hey man,

50:39

it's on. Hey, thanks so much for

50:42

listening to the show this week. And

50:44

by the way, please make sure to

50:46

check out my newsletter. You can sign

50:49

up for it for free at guaras.com

50:51

or on sub stack. And of course,

50:53

if you're working on a business and

50:56

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50:58

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51:00

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to try and help you solve them.

51:10

You can send us a voice memo

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You can leave a message there and

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make sure to tell us how to

51:19

reach you. And by the way, we'll

51:21

put all of this in the podcast

51:24

description as well. This episode was produced

51:26

by Sam Paulson with music composed by

51:28

Rontine Arablui and Sam Paulson. It was

51:30

edited by John Isabella and our audio

51:33

engineer was Sina Lefredo. Our production team

51:35

at How I Built This also includes

51:37

Alex Chung, Carla Estez, Chris Mussini, Elaine

51:40

Coates, J.C. Howard, Catherine Sifer. Carry

51:42

Thompson, and Neva Grant.

51:44

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