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ynab.com/built. sense,

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like why your mom still listens

2:09

to the radio, or what she

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meant when she sent that emoji.

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But a zero sugar drink that's

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still full of fruit flavor, we

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made that make sense. In strawberry,

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passion fruit, Concord, grape, and more,

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you gotta sip it to get

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it. New Welch's zero sugar. Let's

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fruit stuff up. Len

2:41

Hoffman was a retired baker from Entomons

2:43

Bakery. And the first thing he said,

2:45

he goes, stop calling these recipes. He

2:47

goes, these are formulas. And I was

2:49

like, okay, he goes, this is scientific,

2:52

now boys. So we get Len to

2:54

start helping us with these products that

2:56

we're working on. And we're also starting

2:58

to do some private label for a

3:00

pretty large coffee chain here in Southern

3:03

California. And they're like, well, hey, I

3:05

wonder what else these guys do.

3:07

So they ask us about doing

3:09

some scones. And we totally made

3:11

the best scones in the city.

3:13

Which was not a total lie.

3:15

Which was not true, just completely

3:17

not even make scones.

3:20

The guy wouldn't even know what

3:22

the hell a scone was. Welcome

3:24

to How I Built This,

3:26

a show about innovators,

3:29

entrepreneurs, idealists, and

3:31

the stories behind the

3:33

movements they built. I'm

3:38

Guy Ross and on the

3:40

show today how a

3:42

former American Gladiator found

3:44

his true calling. Lost

3:46

it and then found

3:48

it again by building

3:50

a top-selling protein

3:53

cookie brand, Lenny and

3:55

Larry's. If you follow food

3:58

trends, protein... right now

4:00

is an exploding category. Just to

4:02

put it in perspective, in 2024,

4:05

the global market size for protein-fortified

4:07

foods was around $27 billion. But

4:09

by the end of this decade,

4:11

it's expected to reach close to

4:14

$50 billion. Just take a look

4:16

at the aisles of Whole Foods

4:18

or even Costco. You will start

4:21

to notice more and more products

4:23

that tout their protein content, whether

4:25

it's crackers or nut butter or

4:27

even ice cream. But back in

4:30

the days when protein was kind

4:32

of out of fashion in the

4:34

90s, two former bodybuilders entered the

4:37

space with a pretty revolutionary product.

4:39

It was a protein-packed muffin. This

4:41

was in 1993, when Barry Turner

4:44

and his friend Benny Graham were

4:46

out of work and struggling to

4:49

make in Hollywood. A few months

4:51

earlier, Barry finally caught a lucky

4:53

break when he was cast on

4:56

the TV show American Gladiators. But

4:58

just a few episodes in, he

5:00

got injured, and that was the

5:03

end of his TV career as

5:05

an American Gladiator. So one afternoon,

5:07

Barry and Benny were talking about

5:09

how boring their body-building diets were,

5:11

mainly chicken breasts and egg whites.

5:14

And they wondered, could you take

5:16

protein powder and just mix it

5:18

into things that are more interesting,

5:20

like muffins or brownies? A few

5:22

days later, they started to experiment,

5:25

literally... dumping protein powder into

5:27

muffin mixes. And eventually they

5:29

found a recipe that worked.

5:31

They decided to start a

5:33

small business selling their muffins

5:35

to local coffee shops around

5:38

Los Angeles. The muffins did pretty

5:40

well, but the business never really

5:42

took off. So in 2001, they

5:44

sold Lenny and Larry and Larry's

5:46

for a small amount of money

5:48

and moved on. But Barry Turner

5:50

would come to regret that decision

5:53

almost immediately. And it would take him

5:55

six years to buy most of the

5:57

business back. And that's when he started

5:59

to turn... Larry's into a national brand

6:01

of cookies brownies and other protein-packed treats.

6:03

Today you'll find Lenny and Larry's snacks

6:05

at thousands of locations across the country.

6:07

The brand was really a pioneer in

6:09

protein-fortified food. In Barry's path to building

6:11

that brand was a winding one. He

6:13

grew up in the 1960s and 70s

6:15

in Hickory, North Carolina. He was a

6:17

pretty talented baseball player but an injury

6:19

on the field left him deaf in

6:21

one year so when he started college

6:23

in Georgia he set his sights on

6:25

wrestling. I was living in a little

6:27

town called Cartersville Georgia and my mom

6:29

had seen a guy had a wrestling

6:32

ring in his backyard and she told

6:34

me about it so I kept going

6:36

to his house every day for two

6:38

straight weeks leaving notes knocking on his

6:40

door and I kept saying I want

6:42

you to train me, I want you

6:44

to train me. And he doesn't respond.

6:46

So finally he calls me one time

6:48

and he just said, he goes, look,

6:50

dude, I've been traveling, I've been on

6:52

the road wrestling, you know, all I

6:54

kept saying was just see me, I

6:56

sort of could, just see me, and

6:58

maybe you'd want to train me. So

7:00

I show up and he sees me,

7:02

he goes, you know, I think I

7:04

think I could probably help you. So

7:06

we trained for two weeks, non-stop, seven

7:08

days a week, seven days a week,

7:10

seven days a week, we're just, we're

7:12

just training, we're just training, we're just

7:14

training, we're just training, we're just training,

7:16

we're just training, we're just training, we're

7:18

just training, we're just training, we're just

7:20

training, we're just training, we're just training,

7:22

we're just training, we're just training, we're

7:24

just training, we're just training, we're just

7:26

training, we're how to do a sunset

7:28

flip, how to come off the top

7:30

rope, flight elbows, everything. And it was

7:32

so much fun. And so within two

7:34

weeks, he gets me a match. And

7:36

you became a character? Or were you,

7:38

were you Barry Turner? No, well, when

7:40

I showed up, I was Barry Turner,

7:42

but when the promoter saw me, he

7:44

goes, this guy's too pretty, we got

7:46

to put a mask on him. Because

7:48

I can't look better than the actual

7:50

guy who's going to beat me. And

7:52

the coolest thing about that is, man,

7:54

when they put a mask on you,

7:56

you just become someone else. Yeah. So

7:58

they put a mask on me, they

8:00

called me Mr. Olympia, and they gave

8:02

me a manager, I got a guy's

8:04

name's Diamond Dave, he's wearing a red

8:06

tuxedo with a red. top hat up,

8:08

it was full on like a major

8:10

production. And I was getting picked up

8:12

by a bigger group. They were gonna

8:14

send me on the road like immediately.

8:16

And this was like in W.A. W.C.W.

8:18

type of wrestling at the time. And

8:20

that's where I was heading. And that's

8:22

what I really thought my career was

8:25

gonna be. I was gonna become a

8:27

professional wrestler and be very successful at

8:29

it. So what happened? So I chose

8:31

a girlfriend and didn't work out, so.

8:33

Right, but you did take her advice

8:35

not to be a pro wrestler, right?

8:37

And I guess instead you decided to

8:39

go back to school to Georgia State

8:41

University, where you wound up meeting this

8:43

guy, Benny Graham, who would, of course,

8:45

factor into this story. So who was

8:47

Benny? I actually met him at a

8:49

gym, and he said, hey, I heard

8:51

you. you're doing, you're you see a

8:53

little bit of pro wrestling, would you

8:55

want to consider it again? Because I

8:57

really want to get into it. And

8:59

I said, yeah, I'd love to. So

9:01

he and I started training together and

9:03

we just became instant friends. We were

9:05

just kind of goofballs and having fun.

9:07

And he was a personal trainer too

9:09

at the time. And so he said,

9:11

I'm training this lady and she has

9:13

this movie script written for two guys

9:15

that would be you and I'm you

9:17

and I. And she'll move us to

9:19

California. And I go, sure, let me

9:21

finish my schooling. So I can get

9:23

my degree. He goes, we got to

9:25

go next month. And I was like,

9:27

hmm, let's go for it. And so

9:29

we packed up and we went to

9:31

California. Wait, let's just, I'm back. Somebody

9:33

was working on a movie script. Yeah,

9:35

she had this lady, she was, she

9:37

had a little bit of money. So

9:39

people find people with money at that

9:41

time, everybody, everybody's pitching a movie. Everybody.

9:43

It was similar to the movie Warrior.

9:45

If you remember the movie with Tom

9:47

Hardy and Edderton guy, back then it

9:49

was about, like, that was like UFC

9:51

type fighting for that. that movie. And

9:53

so kind of somewhere to that, it

9:55

was like, you know, two guys. We

9:57

were going to be wrestling. And so

9:59

the idea was that you and Benny

10:01

might. star in it like you might

10:03

be the Warriors? Yeah we might be

10:05

the guys and be the main characters

10:07

and kicking some ass. Kickin some ass

10:09

and we're big we're big guys we're

10:11

growing our hair really long so we

10:13

just we had we had a look

10:15

so yeah it was just it was

10:18

just one of the things where you

10:20

just go you know what it's it's

10:22

a once in a lifetime opportunity to

10:24

move to California I never in my

10:26

heart believed a movie would ever get

10:28

made but I'd ever star in this

10:30

movie I just had an opportunity to

10:32

go to go to go to go

10:34

to go to California to California to

10:36

California go to California to California. a

10:38

semester away from graduating from getting your

10:40

degree. Yeah. Oh, because at that time,

10:42

I was like, it was one of

10:44

those things. I'm still kind of young.

10:46

I'm like 29 or something at that

10:48

time. Yeah. I can finish later. All

10:50

right. So you get to LA 1991.

10:52

And with the hopes and dreams of

10:54

being in this film, what happens? Well,

10:56

obviously the film never gets made. So

10:58

we're literally, Benny and I are just

11:00

being paid by this person. just work

11:03

out. We worked out twice a day,

11:05

we ate, that's all we did was

11:07

just get bigger and bigger and bigger.

11:09

Wow. Yeah, seriously. Like can you give

11:11

me a sense of how big? Sure.

11:13

What's your height and what was your

11:16

weight at the time? Well, six feet,

11:18

the biggest I ever got weight wise

11:20

was 250, 250 pounds. Wow, that's. Yeah.

11:22

insane. I mean, I mean, can I

11:24

ask you, this is not a very

11:26

polite question. No, it's okay. I'm honest.

11:29

Were you using steroids to get that

11:31

big? To get, yes, yes, I did.

11:33

You have to, you can't, you can't

11:35

eat food and protein powders without, cannot,

11:37

my natural body, my natural body, I

11:40

could get to, I got to about

11:42

two, seventeen, I think was the biggest

11:44

I got too naturally. And most people

11:46

will not tell you the truth when

11:48

you ask questions like that, but I

11:50

just believe in being honest about everything.

11:53

And by the way, does it have

11:55

long-term consequences? I think it does for

11:57

people who use it for a long

11:59

time. I didn't like it. Mood swings

12:01

galore. I mean, you could be, you

12:03

could be happy one day and you

12:06

could just be, you know, throwing stuff

12:08

at a wall the next. It's just,

12:10

yeah, it's not, it's like, especially if

12:12

you're a pretty high strung person anyway

12:14

or just very aggressive. Volatile. Volatile. Yeah.

12:17

So you, but that was your job

12:19

is to get really jacked for this

12:21

movie. How long did that last before

12:23

it became clear that this movie was

12:25

never going to pan out? I got

12:27

paid for about a year. Wow. Yeah.

12:30

It's a pretty good deal. Not bad.

12:32

Meantime. Okay, so once you kind of

12:34

find out, this is not going to

12:36

happen. You're already in LA. You're this

12:38

jack dude, and you have long hair.

12:41

Tell me about your hair. Yeah, I

12:43

kept growing my hair to the point

12:45

where it got down to my waist.

12:47

What was that guy? Fabio? Fabio, yeah.

12:49

Were you like Fabio? Yeah, he had

12:51

cool hair. His hair was, hair's hair

12:54

wasn't as wavy as mine. He was

12:56

like massive with long hair. Yeah. So

12:58

you had this really long hair and

13:00

that was your look. Yeah, upset. And

13:02

meantime, Benny was also doing this, right?

13:04

He was correct. And you guys were

13:07

sort of on this parallel path of...

13:09

you're in LA so you might as

13:11

well keep auditioning for parts right? That's

13:13

exactly right I was one thing I'll

13:15

tell you is I'm not an actor

13:18

and I never I didn't want to

13:20

become an actor I just I had

13:22

a look I was big with long

13:24

hair you could you could put me

13:26

in and things so I could audition

13:28

for parts I read that you were

13:31

on Dooky Hauser I was a guy

13:33

in a pool with a girl on

13:35

my shoulders. Benny and I both were.

13:37

And I'm Dooky Hauser. We did the

13:39

bodyguard with Kevin Kostner, Whitney Houston. You

13:41

were in the bodyguard. What'd you play?

13:44

We were kind of nightclub kind of

13:46

bouncers. There's a scene where they're coming

13:48

in from the limousine, come into the

13:50

Mayan theater, downtown LA, and we're kind

13:52

of holding back the crowd because they're

13:55

trying to get to them, whatever. in

13:57

the scene when she's performing, we're right

13:59

there at the stage. Yeah. So how

14:01

many seconds do you get on screen

14:03

during the bodyguard? Honestly, it's maybe three,

14:05

four seconds, five seconds back. Yeah. I

14:08

was in another movie too called Death

14:10

Becomes Her. And I still get residuals

14:12

for that. Is that with Merrill Street?

14:14

Merrill Street, Bruce Willis. Yeah, it's like

14:16

Bruce Willis, Barry Turner, Merrill Street. We

14:19

were all future actors. But if you

14:21

had a look, they could use you.

14:23

So it's funny and death becomes her.

14:25

Our titles were Beefy Guy. I'm not

14:27

kidding you. So I was Beefy, I

14:29

think I was Beefy Guy number eight.

14:32

And we got, it was, it was

14:34

such, we had so much fun because

14:36

the other beefy guys in the movie,

14:38

we were all just big hams on

14:40

the set and we didn't have to

14:42

work that much. It was a lot

14:45

of hurry up and wait. And we

14:47

just, we hung out. We hung out,

14:49

we ate and we just messed around.

14:51

It was a lot of fun. All

14:53

right, so this is also the era

14:56

of, and those of you under the

14:58

age of 40 will have a harder

15:00

time remembering this, but American gladiators. This

15:02

is a show on television where you

15:04

had a bunch of like really strong

15:06

men and women, and then you have

15:09

contestants who'd have to. battle them out

15:11

in different scenarios like trying to get

15:13

a touchdown or trying to win a

15:15

wrestling match or a jousting match. This

15:17

is a huge massive show. You find

15:19

out about an open casting call in

15:22

1992. And when you find out about

15:24

it, what did you think? Well, the

15:26

first thing I thought was, I'm going

15:28

to go become an American Gladiator. Prior

15:30

to that, I audition for a show

15:33

called Knights and Warriors. It was like

15:35

a knockoff show. Yeah, knockoff show, a

15:37

medieval setting. It didn't last one. It

15:39

lasted one year. And Benny and I

15:41

both go and audition for nights for

15:43

Warriors. Yeah. And they wanted both of

15:46

us. And I said, no, thank you.

15:48

I said, I'm going to go become

15:50

an American Gladiator. Huh. So what was

15:52

it was it a one-day audition and

15:54

they were gonna make a decision at

15:57

the end of the day or was

15:59

it a multi-day thing? Well it turned

16:01

out to be a multi-day multi-month process.

16:03

And we do all the events, we're

16:05

doing powerball, we're doing jousting, we ran

16:07

240-yard dashes in front of these executives.

16:10

Okay, but it wasn't, but Gladius wasn't

16:12

like boxing and stuff. No, no, no,

16:14

it wasn't violent. It was like jousting

16:16

with like padded jousts and wrestling wrestling.

16:18

But guy, that is violence. You're hit

16:20

somebody with a giant Q-tip, we'll call

16:23

it. And it doesn't matter if it's

16:25

padded, it's like when you're hitting it's

16:27

padded, it's like when you're hitting at

16:29

that speed, it's like when you're hitting

16:31

at that speed, at that speed, at

16:34

that speed, at that speed, at that

16:36

speed, at that speed, at that speed,

16:38

at that speed, at that speed, at

16:40

that speed, at that speed, at that

16:42

speed, at that speed, at that speed,

16:44

at that speed, at that speed, at

16:47

that speed, at that speed, at that

16:49

speed, at that speed, at that speed,

16:51

at And so that day we went

16:53

through all these different events and I

16:55

could do them all. And so they

16:57

narrowed it down to 10 people that

17:00

day and I was one of the

17:02

10 people. And then we all kind

17:04

of come back and do some things

17:06

and they can narrow it down to

17:08

three people. I expected to be in

17:11

that top 10. But now when you

17:13

get to like you're got a 33%

17:15

chance of being on this show, you're

17:17

like, your heart's racing a little bit.

17:19

You're saying like, like, holy cow, I'm

17:21

a hottest show on TVish show on

17:24

TV. I'm looking at a photo of

17:26

you at the time. You were selected.

17:28

I think people are going to make

17:30

that assumption now. And you became, you

17:32

become cyclone. That's your character. They called

17:35

me cyclone. They thought I was very,

17:37

I was big and I was very

17:39

fast. And that's just a name they

17:41

came up with. You were like 31.

17:43

32. Yeah. Giant. You're just a giant.

17:45

Like your bicep is like the size

17:48

of an adult head. I had some

17:50

big arms. I still have big arms

17:52

guy. All right, so you get the

17:54

job. You're on this massive show and

17:56

you've got a serious career ahead of

17:58

you. That's exactly what I thought. I

18:01

was like, this is it. This is

18:03

the pinnacle of my sports career. I

18:05

didn't make it baseball, football, whatever, but

18:07

this was my pro sports. Everything had

18:09

led me to that moment, right? I

18:12

felt like if anyone had earned it,

18:14

it was me. And, uh, but then

18:16

God has a way of saying, let

18:18

me, uh, let me deal you another

18:20

blow. What, what happened? On my, I

18:22

did eight shows, and on the day

18:25

that they called, they said, this is

18:27

your coming out party cyclone. They were

18:29

gonna, they were gonna, they were gonna

18:31

make me a, known. I mean, I

18:33

was gonna be a, I felt like

18:35

I was gonna become a star. And

18:38

so they said, you're in every event

18:40

today. That means they're going to, they're

18:42

putting you out there. But the best

18:44

event was Powerball. People love Powerball. So

18:46

that's basically the guys, the contestants are

18:49

sticking a ball into these little cylinders.

18:51

And there's three of us trying to

18:53

tackle two of them. And so I

18:55

died, there's two guys, they come together,

18:57

I died between them, I extend my

18:59

arms, and I wrapped them up, and

19:02

I wrapped them, I had rolled up.

19:04

and my arm. Complete, complete, complete detachment.

19:06

It started to be gory, but it's

19:08

what happened. And I wanted to hide

19:10

it from the, from the producers. It

19:13

was like hanging meat off your arm?

19:15

Well, it's just, guy, what it does

19:17

is it rolls up like a, like

19:19

a shade. It just goes up into

19:21

your, up into your body towards your,

19:23

towards your shoulder. Yeah, it's just complete,

19:26

it attaches at your forearm. And painful.

19:28

Up to that point, one of the

19:30

most painful things I'd ever gone through.

19:32

It was just like burnt, like somebody's

19:34

taking a match and they're lighting your

19:36

arm on fire for 24 hours a

19:39

day. I could not understand it, but

19:41

I would not, I would not stop.

19:43

I kept taping it and trying to

19:45

be, I kept taping it and trying

19:47

to shut off the pain. I didn't

19:50

take pain pills or anything, but I

19:52

was doing it because I got to

19:54

go to the hospital. Wow, yeah, so

19:56

they ended that ended my career as

19:58

a glad eater. So you were done.

20:00

That was it. Yeah, I was done.

20:03

Which must have been crushing because you

20:05

worked so hard to get that job.

20:07

Yeah, if there's every If there's every

20:09

time in my life being depressed, that

20:11

was it. So here you are 31.

20:13

Yeah, you kind of taste this this

20:16

moment of like start them like just

20:18

the beginning of it and you know

20:20

you're probably thinking okay Here we go

20:22

and then it's over. Yeah, so what

20:24

did you? I mean obviously it's rehabilitate

20:27

your arm. That was priority. Yep. And

20:29

when you say you were feeling like

20:31

down like what does that what did

20:33

that mean? Feeling like a feeling like

20:35

a failure. I worked my my whole

20:37

life I feel like from the time

20:40

you know being a kid being an

20:42

athlete to pick up the weights you

20:44

know going through becoming a bouncer nightclubs

20:46

and wrestling just everything it was just

20:48

like leading towards there was something there

20:51

was a pinnacle somewhere and American Gladiator's

20:53

was my pinnacle yeah you could have

20:55

cast me in a movie with arms

20:57

fortunately I wouldn't have taken that over

20:59

being an American Gladiator and I it

21:01

just yeah I depression is like not

21:04

even funny I'm talking about I've never

21:06

really I've never really shared this with

21:08

anyone but when you're a proud person

21:10

from the South you don't talk about

21:12

your feelings you just you just swallow

21:14

it and you go on with life

21:17

and you pick yourself back up but

21:19

man behind the scenes I just I

21:21

didn't know what I was gonna do

21:23

I was like how do I how

21:25

do I top that yeah how basically

21:28

how do I get that feeling of

21:30

being a success again? You're going through

21:32

this and trying to figure out the

21:34

next step I guess. Yeah. And Benny,

21:36

he was on nights and warriors that

21:38

sort of low budget spinoff of American

21:41

Gladius also had an injury like something

21:43

that kept him from right? Yeah, he

21:45

tore his shoulder labrum or something and

21:47

you can't make this up. We're sitting,

21:49

we're literally two guys on these two

21:51

opposite shows. We both, you'd have like

21:54

a peanut burn jelly sandwich with a

21:56

cup of coffee, a muffin with a

21:58

cup of coffee, something sweet with a

22:00

coffee, just, that was just our thing.

22:02

So we had a muffin sitting on

22:05

the table and we were going to

22:07

split that muffin and have a cup

22:09

of coffee. It's just a rate. muffin

22:11

just just a regular muffin yeah just

22:13

whatever you can just stuff in your

22:15

body that's it and I guess one

22:18

afternoon you're just kind of eating all

22:20

this food and to having a conversation

22:22

yeah just having a conversation we're at

22:24

coffee roaster cafe and marina del Rey

22:26

it's our favorite little spot and eating

22:29

chicken breast and egg whites and our

22:31

thing was we always like to like

22:33

before we'd work out we'd always like

22:35

You'd have like a peanut burn jelly

22:37

sandwich with a cup of coffee, a

22:39

muffin with a cup of coffee, something

22:42

sweet with a coffee, just, that was

22:44

just our thing. So we had a

22:46

muffin sitting on the table and we

22:48

were going to split that muffin and

22:50

have a cup of coffee. It's just

22:52

a regular muffin, just just a regular

22:55

muffin. Just a regular muffin. Yeah. Just

22:57

kind of a natural type muffin, nothing

22:59

in it. And I'm eating chicken breast

23:01

and egg whites. And I looked up

23:03

and it's like Benny had saw a

23:06

ghost. And he just goes, oh my

23:08

God, he goes, we're doing this. And

23:10

I was like, you damn right, we

23:12

are. And that's all we needed. That

23:14

was it. Okay, this is the light

23:16

bulb moment. And you're like, why can't

23:19

we put that into that? And now

23:21

this is 1993. There were some, I

23:23

mean, protein powders existed, weigh powder existed

23:25

at the time. Yeah, those metrics metrics

23:27

metrics was big. Metrics was kind of

23:29

doing their thing. But it's funny though,

23:32

there was protein powder and there was

23:34

protein bars, but there was nothing else.

23:36

Metrics, metrics, right? Met, RX, correct. Yeah,

23:38

yeah, yeah, yeah. GNC existed. You get

23:40

protein powders, yep, but there was no

23:43

one putting protein in anything other than

23:45

a protein bar. You didn't have to,

23:47

you just, if you wanted protein, you

23:49

ate protein, you ate tuna, you ate

23:51

chicken, you ate steak, you ate steak,

23:53

pretty great way to get protein. Let's

23:56

be honest. The best way to get

23:58

protein. It's just not convenient for everybody.

24:00

Correct. You can't take a stake on

24:02

the go with you. Just munch on

24:04

it while you're driving. Exactly. Hang on,

24:07

I got a steak in my pocket.

24:09

I need to eat it. Yeah, I'm

24:11

sorry. But there, then and there, you

24:13

guys are sitting there, and both of

24:15

you are like, this is it. And

24:17

it's funny, you said light bulb moment.

24:20

I always look back on it. I

24:22

go, this was a giant halo. It

24:24

was like, this is not your moment

24:26

where you can maybe go make a

24:28

little bit of money. This, I think

24:30

is something bigger than that. Ara Angelico's

24:33

ascension. Asension. It is. The halo right

24:35

there on the angel. That's it. It

24:37

was it was our moment. Two potent

24:39

guys from the south gonna go change

24:41

the world. When we come back in

24:44

just a moment, Barry and Benny build

24:46

a business but not a brand and

24:48

Barry makes a deal that he regrets.

24:50

Almost as soon as he signs it.

24:52

Stay with us. I'm Guy Ross and

24:54

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ad-free by joining Wondery Plus

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in the Wondery app or

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on Apple Podcasts. Hey,

27:50

welcome back to How I Built

27:52

This. I'm Guy Ross. So it's

27:54

1993, and Barry and his friend

27:56

Benny are sitting at a cafe

27:59

in LA, where they've just come.

28:01

up with the idea to start

28:03

a business selling protein muffins. There

28:05

was no turning back guy, it

28:07

was just we're gonna do this,

28:10

we didn't know how we're gonna

28:12

do this, no consumer product good

28:14

experience, there's no marketing experience, there's

28:16

no business experience, nothing, and we just,

28:19

we knew that day, that was it. And

28:21

so we didn't leave that table until

28:23

we drew out what we thought the

28:25

logo was gonna look like. And we

28:28

left there. and went straight to a

28:30

little natural food store Rainbow Acres and

28:32

picked up some protein powder. We bought

28:35

some muffin mix, went back to my

28:37

kitchen and started baking these muffins within

28:39

two hours. We opened up a bank

28:41

account that day with $1,400. I don't

28:44

know why it was $1,400. Maybe that's

28:46

all we had. And we did a

28:48

DBA doing business as. So this all

28:50

happened the very first day. And the

28:53

business was going to be called what?

28:55

Lenny and Larrys. You decided that right

28:57

then and there you're going to call

28:59

it Lenny and Larry's? Right, right then.

29:02

Even though you were Benny and Barry.

29:04

Yep. We always called each other something

29:06

different. It was again, something goofy.

29:08

We just, our names would change

29:10

every day. It was just something

29:12

stupid we did. And so we

29:14

wanted to create these characters. And

29:17

we said Benny and Barry sound

29:19

like two characters. And that was

29:21

it. I think people overthink things,

29:23

now that I look back on

29:25

this, I think people overthink trying

29:27

to get the perfect name or

29:29

the perfect decide or whatever, rather

29:31

than just doing it. All right, so

29:33

it's gonna be Lenny and Larry's. Yeah.

29:35

And what, when you guys were talking

29:38

about this in that initial, did you

29:40

say a snack food brand or did

29:42

you say, let's just make baked goods

29:44

or what do you remember? Yeah, we

29:46

were, we were, we were gonna put

29:49

protein in. Everything. That's what I was

29:51

saying. Just protein powder, like way powder.

29:53

Way powder is going to go in

29:56

cookies, muffins, brownies. We started crazy ideas

29:58

of popcorns and granola. We're just,

30:00

we're thinking of everything we can

30:02

put this, put protein in. What did

30:04

you guys do? Just got like

30:07

muffin mix and like from the grocery

30:09

store? That's all we did. Apple,

30:11

cinnamon, muffin mix, and some weight protein.

30:13

Seems like a, seems simple and off.

30:16

Seems simple. You just, you take

30:18

out some of the flour and you

30:20

replace it with protein and it's

30:22

got to work, right? And it did

30:24

not. The muffins actually baked, but they

30:26

were hard as a rock. And

30:28

we weren't discouraged. We can find somebody that

30:31

can do this. That's what we kept saying. We

30:33

knew it was it wasn't out there But we

30:35

said we can we can do this. Yeah, so

30:37

we find a bakery in Santa Monica called

30:39

Montana Bakery small little bakery said hey, here's

30:41

what we're gonna do Can you guys help

30:43

us? We said we just need help putting

30:46

these recipes together. Did you know the owners

30:48

the bakery? We did and we just we

30:50

met them and they were it's just two

30:53

brothers So we just struck up a friendship

30:55

a friendship and they started baking muffins for

30:57

us. So they agreed to help you figure

30:59

this out and what you said to them,

31:02

look, what did you say to them? Well,

31:04

we just said we're trying to get

31:06

a certain amount of protein in

31:08

these muffins. We didn't want to

31:10

really use refined sugars. We wanted

31:12

to use something healthier. Now we're

31:14

already thinking about how healthy these

31:17

things can be. Yeah. So we're

31:19

thinking we're thinking, we're thinking, even

31:21

further down the road than just

31:23

making protein muffins. And by the

31:25

way, in those early days, what

31:27

were you using for protein in

31:29

the muffins? We started with Way,

31:31

and that was our protein source

31:33

initially. And what happened, the muffins tasted

31:36

great. They just wouldn't have a crazy

31:38

good shelf life. And they started to

31:40

bind up. They started to get a

31:42

little harder over just too soon. But

31:45

we did it actually, we launched with

31:47

Way protein muffins. Okay, so this bakery

31:49

did make, they came up with a

31:51

formulation. And the plan was, you guys

31:54

baked these muffins for us, and then

31:56

we're going to take them off your

31:58

hands and do what? with us. We're

32:01

going to go sell them. We

32:03

had no idea who we were

32:05

going to sell them to, but

32:07

we knew we knew we could

32:09

sell these. And our first, it's

32:11

funny, our first account was the

32:13

coffee shop we dreamed up the

32:15

idea. That coffee shop in Brendel,

32:17

right? Yeah, yeah. She said, Tony,

32:19

and Tony goes, I'll give you

32:21

a shot. And I can remember

32:23

guy, our first invoice, we were

32:25

selling these muffins for like a

32:28

dollar and 20 cent. And so

32:30

they would just sell them in their

32:32

display case. Yeah, they put them right

32:34

by the register. We were big. I

32:36

don't know why. We were always big

32:39

about, hey, well, if you could put

32:41

these by the register, that'd be great.

32:43

And always would. And then presumably also

32:45

going to some other coffee places, or

32:48

did you try gyms? We did. We

32:50

did Rainbow Acres, Natural Foods Store here

32:52

locally, and we did Gold's Gym in

32:54

Venice. and we did a local health

32:57

food store called Mrs. Gooches before. Oh

32:59

yeah, which was eventually bought by Whole

33:01

Foods. And so how long was the

33:03

shelf life for the muffin? Probably like

33:05

four days or something like that. And

33:07

it wasn't sold, it wasn't packaged,

33:10

was it packaged? Yeah. And how, and

33:12

what was the flavor of the muffin?

33:14

We did apple cinnamon, we did

33:16

blueberry, and we did a lemon

33:18

raspberry. Those are three flavors. And

33:21

how much protein in each muffin?

33:23

I think back then around 15

33:25

grams. Wow. Yeah. So this is

33:27

early 90s. This is like really

33:29

before the protein revolution, which is

33:31

we're going to get to it

33:33

because I would argue just starting

33:35

now. And only now are you

33:38

really seeing an explosion and protein

33:40

protein, protein, protein everywhere. At the

33:42

time, who did you think was going to

33:44

buy these? I'm assuming you thought it

33:46

was going to be like body builder

33:48

types. We did, but to be honest

33:50

with you, we really were developing these.

33:52

We said for the average consumer. We

33:55

thought if we could make a, we coined

33:57

a term later called better bad, but at

33:59

that time. we thought if we could

34:01

get them to stop eating, you know,

34:03

little Debbie's or chips of hoy and

34:05

come to this because we thought bodybuilders

34:08

would enjoy it as like a little

34:10

cheat treat, but we were really targeting

34:12

the average consumer. So the idea that

34:14

you were trying, you were thinking was,

34:16

hey, maybe we could, if we pitch

34:19

this as a healthier for you muffin,

34:21

because there's protein and, but there's still

34:23

with sugar in it, there's still with

34:25

sugar in it, but people, Fiber was

34:27

fiber something it was it was yeah,

34:30

we started we had we had added

34:32

fiber already into that product. Yeah, and

34:34

they tasted as they tasted fantastic people

34:36

talk about to the day they go

34:38

that's still the best product you guys

34:41

ever made was your was your protein

34:43

muffin well, yeah All right, but now

34:45

this is a small business. I mean,

34:47

this is like a tiny business. You're

34:49

going, I mean, we're selling 15, 20,

34:52

30, 50 dollars with the muffins at

34:54

this copy shop and that coffee shop

34:56

and trying to collect the, I mean,

34:58

that's a tough business. Listen, we weren't

35:00

even small. We would have taken small,

35:03

we were smaller than small. Yeah, we

35:05

just, it was just a crazy little

35:07

idea that we were so determined to

35:09

make it successful. So tell me a

35:11

little bit about what a typical day

35:14

was like. Was the... Okay, you were

35:16

not baking the muffins. You had this

35:18

bakery make baking the muffins initially. Yep.

35:20

Yep. So I had to bring in

35:22

some money. So I was doing some

35:25

personal training at Gold's Gym and Venice.

35:27

I had clients. My wife was a

35:29

personal trainer. I met her at Gold's

35:31

Gym at Venice. Okay. You were married.

35:33

This is your... This is my second

35:36

wife I want to have been with

35:38

now for over 30 years. Cheryl Sandy.

35:40

Cheryl Sandy. She was a personal trainer,

35:42

I was a personal trainer and we

35:44

had just had one son at the

35:47

time and we would just trade off

35:49

like she would go to the gym,

35:51

I'd watch my son, she would come

35:53

home and we'd swap off, I'd run

35:55

to the gym, they'd go to the

35:57

bakery and you know package muffins or

36:00

whatever had to be done. And were

36:02

you presumably driving the muffins? every little

36:04

location that was telling them? Absolutely. We

36:06

delivered, we'd get up at three or

36:08

four o'clock in the morning, go deliver

36:11

them around town, just so I could

36:13

be back to the gym by seven,

36:15

maybe to train a client. I mean,

36:17

it was crazy. It was just like,

36:19

it was like, I don't know, I

36:22

never. You're driving around a car at

36:24

four o'clock in the morning in LA,

36:26

or even sometimes down to Anaheim, just

36:28

to deliver a bunch of muffins. And

36:30

it was just you and Benny, you

36:33

and Benny and Benny. Just me and

36:35

Benny. Just me and Benny. Maybe you

36:37

do $10,000, $15,000. Maybe. But it's exciting.

36:39

It's felt exciting. Yes. To know that

36:41

you're spending X amount of dollars, you're

36:44

bringing in a wide amount of dollars,

36:46

at the end of the day, you're

36:48

like, hey, we've got money left over

36:50

every freaking week. This is incredible. We're

36:52

making money. Okay. But the formulation still

36:55

is a challenge. You're not getting a

36:57

lot of shelf life. And I guess

36:59

this starts to change when you meet

37:01

a guy who is a retired baker,

37:03

a guy named Len Hoffman. Who's Len

37:06

Hoffman? Len Hoffman was a retired baker

37:08

from Entomens Bakery. And our business had

37:10

started growing. We started, so we outgrew

37:12

the little baker on Montana and we

37:14

ended up baking at a bakery in

37:17

the valley. Green's Bakery. It was a

37:19

little bit bigger. And Green's going to

37:21

San Fernando Valley. Correct. But Lynn Hoffman

37:23

was friends with the owner of that.

37:25

And we told Lynn what we were

37:28

doing. And the first thing he said,

37:30

he goes, stop calling these recipes. He

37:32

goes, these are formulas. And I was

37:34

like, okay, he goes, this is scientific

37:36

now, boys. Sure. Okay. So we get

37:39

Lynn to start helping us with these

37:41

products that we're working on. And we're

37:43

also starting to do some private label

37:45

for a pretty large coffee chain here

37:47

in Southern California. as their protein muffins.

37:50

Yeah, they, uh, it's called the coffee

37:52

bean and tea leaf. Sure. And how

37:54

many coffee bean and tea leafs were

37:56

there? At that time, there were over

37:58

a hundred. Wow, and you were servicing

38:00

all of them. all of them through

38:03

their distribution center. So you got a

38:05

contract with them. Correct. We were selling

38:07

our products to some of their independent

38:09

stores and they're like, well hey I

38:11

wonder what else these guys do. So

38:14

they asked us about doing some scones

38:16

and we told them we made the

38:18

best scones in the city. Which was

38:20

not a total lie. Which was not

38:22

true. You did not even make scones.

38:25

The guy wouldn't even know what the

38:27

hell of scone was. Or a scone

38:29

if you're in certain parts of the

38:31

world. So somebody said, hey listen for

38:33

you two rednecks, that's a biscuit with

38:36

fruit in it. And we said, okay,

38:38

we can make that. And so that

38:40

was one of the first products that

38:42

Lynn Hoffman actually helped us with. It

38:44

was reduced fat. I don't know why

38:47

at that time they were doing these

38:49

reduced fast scones, but that's what they

38:51

wanted. Not protein scones. Not protein, just

38:53

reduced fat. So we saw an opportunity

38:55

and we made these amazing scones and

38:58

it quickly became their number one selling

39:00

product. Wow. And because they, the scones

39:02

were such a success at coffee bean,

39:04

they, what do you think they said?

39:06

What else do you guys do? Yes.

39:09

And you said. What do you need?

39:11

Because now we saw opportunity there. We're

39:13

like, okay, we can, if we get

39:15

this private label business going, we can

39:17

use that money and help to grow

39:20

our brand. So they wanted some new

39:22

cheesecakes. So we started doing that for

39:24

them. And then they. They asked us

39:26

about if we could do things like

39:28

butt cakes. And the answer was always

39:31

yes, we can do this. We could

39:33

do this. But again, not protein. These

39:35

are not protein products for them. But

39:37

then when we started showing them protein

39:39

products like high protein cinnamon rolls, they

39:42

were like, okay, this is interesting. So

39:44

we started selling them some of our

39:46

newest protein inventions. This is not Lenny

39:48

and Larry's. This is hot and beat.

39:50

This is their product. This was a

39:53

chance to actually, we were actually making

39:55

money now. And it got the point

39:57

where we ended up, we were delivering

39:59

pallets of product to their distribution center.

40:01

So much, the business was booming so

40:03

much on the private label side, we

40:06

had to go buy a big truck

40:08

to deliver it seven days a week.

40:10

We were dropping off. product. Wow, so

40:12

this is you guys are bringing in

40:14

like 400, 500,000 a year. Now it's

40:17

starting to make some good money. But

40:19

you're not building a brand. Not building

40:21

a brand, still working it behind the

40:23

scenes. Don't gonna be wrong, we did

40:25

not give up on it. Our day

40:28

was spent, like, we just kept opening

40:30

up more and more accounts locally. Start

40:32

again, some independent 7-Elevens that could actually

40:34

take product without the approval of the

40:36

corporate office. Just the muffins, though. Just

40:39

the muffins, yeah. And then we started

40:41

developing more products. We started, we came

40:43

up with a brownie, high-protein brownies at

40:45

the time. Then things change one afternoon.

40:47

So which was which was Benny was

40:50

delivering product to coffee bean and I

40:52

got a call He got rushed to

40:54

the hospital. He had a deviated septum.

40:56

So he had a surgery done and

40:58

they had lance and artery didn't know

41:01

it at the time. So he was

41:03

bent over was picking up something and

41:05

blood just starts gushing. Oh, jeez. So

41:07

he gets rushed to hospital almost dies

41:09

He realizes he wants to leave California

41:12

and go back to Georgia and be

41:14

around his family. So we tried to

41:16

manage this, we'll call it as an

41:18

East Coast, West Coast business, but 9%

41:20

of our business was on the West

41:23

Coast. Let me just pause for a

41:25

second, because I know, I know that,

41:27

I guess this is around 2000 when

41:29

he moves. But I think, you know,

41:31

most of your business, probably 95% of

41:34

your business was coffee being in tea

41:36

leaf, right? Yeah. Benny has this kind

41:38

of life-changing experience. He decides he wants

41:40

to go to Georgia and you can

41:43

run the business by coastal, but that's

41:45

hard, especially in the sort of the

41:47

pre-internet, pre- zoom era. Yeah. And that

41:49

meant that you were probably delivering all

41:52

the product and dealing with all the,

41:54

you know, billing. and collection and all

41:56

that stuff. And he probably wasn't able

41:59

to do that much, definitely. No, at

42:01

that time, it wasn't big enough to

42:03

do East Coast, West Coast. So basically

42:06

doing 99% of the work for half

42:08

the money. Yeah. And it does, again,

42:10

went along to figure that out. That's

42:12

not a good model. And so you

42:15

want to change. So what do you

42:17

do? You say either I buy you

42:19

out or we sell the business. So

42:22

we put the business up for sell.

42:24

in 2001. 2001. And who was the

42:26

buyer? Don Crouch and Jim Felder. They

42:28

were two friends. They were two friends.

42:31

They were just two local guys that

42:33

lived in the valley. And they saw

42:35

potential in this business as a white

42:38

label. As a white label. Yeah. Yeah.

42:40

They liked the brand, but they thought

42:42

the white label business. Could they could

42:45

turn it into something? Yeah. And what

42:47

roughly, what did they pay for? $480,000.

42:49

So not, not ideal, but not bad.

42:51

Not, not, yeah, not bad. At least,

42:54

at least we created, we made money

42:56

along the way, we created something that

42:58

had value, and it was kind of

43:01

cool that you could sell a business

43:03

for, you know, almost a half a

43:05

million dollars that you created from just

43:07

an idea. Yeah, and they got those

43:10

accounts, though, they were, they, they got

43:12

everything. How'd you feel about, about that?

43:14

Was it, did feel like a relief,

43:17

you know, you know, you know, you

43:19

know, you know, you know, Ben, Ben,

43:21

Ben, Ben, Ben, Ben, Ben, Ben, Ben,

43:24

Ben, Ben, Ben, and, and, and, and,

43:26

and, and, and, and, and, and, No,

43:28

just say again, regret that I should

43:30

have just bought him out. And then

43:33

Don and I were sending the parking

43:35

lot talking after we had done our

43:37

deal and Don said, you and I

43:40

should have just partnered on this. I

43:42

said, I 100% agree. And so Don

43:44

and I remained friends as he owned

43:47

the business. They actually paid me to

43:49

really kind of manage the coffee bean

43:51

account because they knew how valuable it

43:53

was and I had a great relationship

43:56

with coffee bean. Do you remember feeling

43:58

similarly to how you felt when you

44:00

or out of American Gladiator when you

44:03

injured yourself? Yeah, like that? Yeah, like

44:05

like something ended that you just didn't

44:07

want it to end. I still had

44:09

the passion for my brand and it

44:12

was like it was just kind of

44:14

like giving it away and never watching

44:16

it never giving it a chance to

44:19

grow up. It was six and a

44:21

half years. Six and a half years.

44:23

Yeah. Somebody asked me what time what

44:26

did you, what did that six and

44:28

a half years cost you? I said

44:30

it just cost me time. It came

44:32

down to being very scattered and not

44:35

having what I call a hero product.

44:37

We had all these products that we

44:39

can make, but none of them were

44:42

the one where you just went to.

44:44

Yeah, this is this is our calling

44:46

card. This is what we're going to

44:48

be known for. You never focused on

44:51

like. This is the thing that only

44:53

we make, and only we can make

44:55

it great. Yeah, we made too much

44:58

stuff to really focus on one that

45:00

could be a winter. Now, we still

45:02

had our brand, but like I said,

45:05

it was the majority of our business

45:07

was Coffee Bean. And nobody knew your,

45:09

nobody knew the brand, no. Locally you

45:11

did, like we would, you would have,

45:14

yeah. Magic Johnson was a big fan

45:16

of her brand back in the day

45:18

when he was still playing with Lakers

45:21

and he would see our product, you

45:23

know, and he'd always buy the gold's

45:25

gym and somebody'd say, hey, Magic, that's

45:27

linear, he'd always, he'd stop and say,

45:30

oh man, I really love your product.

45:32

So we had those types of things

45:34

where we had, we had people that

45:37

knew us in LA, but nowhere else.

45:39

Yeah. So one kid or two. Yeah,

45:41

two from our previous marriage, two daughters,

45:44

and then my two sons. So I

45:46

had four kids at that time. Right.

45:48

So there's a lot on your plate.

45:50

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, true. So all

45:53

right. So you are out of Lenny

45:55

and Larry's. And then I guess over

45:57

the next few years, you do a

46:00

bunch of different things. Like you go

46:02

to real estate. I think you even

46:04

made some money, right? You got out

46:06

before the bust. Yeah, did well, did

46:09

well, actually. Yeah. And then I read

46:11

that like you did some work like

46:13

you went to work for a software

46:16

company for a while. Well that's the

46:18

interesting story there. So one of my

46:20

good friends, Michael Venny, he was working

46:23

with these guys in the software business

46:25

and they wanted to meet me. I

46:27

meet these guys and they've got this

46:29

little software company they're doing and it's

46:32

kind of computer monitoring software. And so.

46:34

They asked me one day if I

46:36

would like to join them and I

46:39

was like, well, in what capacity what

46:41

do I know about software, right? And

46:43

they said, we don't know. We said,

46:46

we just think that you could, maybe

46:48

you'll run our company one day. And

46:50

I was like, okay, so I hung

46:52

out with these guys, I call it

46:55

hanging out with them. They were paying

46:57

me to hang out with them. They

46:59

were paying me to hang out with

47:02

them. They were paying me to make

47:04

you present over a company, let you

47:06

run our company. And so I'm running

47:08

the software company called Awareness Technologies. And

47:11

we're selling computer monitoring software. Now this

47:13

is at the height of like the

47:15

NBC show, Catch a Predator. So we're

47:18

working with law enforcement agencies, schools, you

47:20

know, parents, etc. because the software captured

47:22

everything, every keystroke, every email, every website

47:25

visited. And we were doing great. I

47:27

mean, this thing was catching fire. But

47:29

I was looking at this, I'm just

47:31

like, well, if I could do this

47:34

with software, imagine what I could do

47:36

with if I had my company back.

47:38

I could sell direct consumer snacks. And

47:41

it was just, you know, kind of

47:43

putting it out there in the universe.

47:45

And that's when Don Crouch reached out

47:47

to me and said, I need help.

47:50

I'm about to shut this thing down

47:52

that I bought from you. Because he

47:54

said, I don't know what I can

47:57

do. with this. I don't know. I

47:59

don't know where I can go with

48:01

this anymore. Was he still supplying coffee

48:04

beans? Still supplying coffee beans and he

48:06

had a little bit of other like

48:08

private level stuff. He may have, he

48:10

was doing locally and, um... He said,

48:13

I'm about to shut this thing down.

48:15

Would you ever consider coming back? So

48:17

we did quick negotiations and I said,

48:20

yeah, I just throw caution to the

48:22

way in here. I'm in. He said,

48:24

well, you want to come back? You

48:26

want to come back? Be a 50-50

48:29

partner with me. 50-50 partner. Yep. And

48:31

did you have to buy some of

48:33

the back? Yeah, it was very, it

48:36

was very cheap. Low. Was a local

48:38

case. So you were able to buy

48:40

50% of the company back. and basically

48:43

be the partner again. Yep. What was

48:45

exciting? I mean, I'm just, it's kind

48:47

of like a sort of a dumb

48:49

question, but I'm teeing you up for

48:52

it, but I'm curious in your mind,

48:54

what was exciting about that prospect? I

48:56

mean, you would, he left six years

48:59

earlier. Yeah. You've not been involved for

49:01

six years. Yeah. What was exciting about

49:03

coming back to this thing. Building my

49:06

brand excited me. I wasn't scared at

49:08

all. I got my baby back. Why

49:10

don't we come back in just a

49:12

moment? Barry has the second worst day

49:15

of his life. Stay with us. I'm

49:17

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Land Rover USA. USA. Hey,

51:28

welcome back to how I built

51:30

this. I'm Guy Ross. So it's

51:32

2007, and Barry's bought back half

51:34

of Lenny and Larry's from its

51:36

current owner, Don Crouch. I wasn't

51:38

scared at all. I love going

51:40

back into the unknown, but I

51:42

was so confident that I could

51:44

turn this into what I originally

51:46

thought Lenny and Larry's could be,

51:48

which was a brand. And funny

51:50

story, I walked into the office

51:52

the first day, we had a

51:54

small little office on an ancino

51:56

on a Ventura Boulevard. And jokingly

51:58

to Don, I just said, okay,

52:00

I said, sit down, shut up

52:02

and watch what I'm about to

52:04

do. And we had a big

52:06

laugh about that, right? But coming

52:08

from my experience working in the

52:10

software company and working with these

52:12

guys who were very brilliant guys,

52:14

by the way, in terms of

52:16

marketing, I felt like I could

52:18

launch the first direct consumer snack

52:20

food company that was, you know,

52:22

kind of a protein, fiber, all

52:24

natural. I thought that's what I

52:26

was going to do. And so

52:28

the first product I wanted to

52:30

launch was a high protein brownie

52:33

because everyone was doing protein bars

52:35

at the time and no one

52:37

had done a brownie. Let's talk

52:39

about building the brand. First of

52:41

all, you didn't have a, you

52:43

needed a logo, you needed packaging,

52:45

you needed to get it into

52:47

shops. I mean, you had the

52:49

muffins and some, a few places.

52:51

So let's talk about first, first

52:53

of all, the logo. Okay. Because

52:55

I don't know if everybody knows

52:57

what this looks like, It looks

52:59

like two crazy dudes with like

53:01

clown hair on this logo. Yeah,

53:03

that's the logo. Lenny and Larry's.

53:05

Yeah, and our original logo was

53:07

mine and Benny's actual faces are

53:09

hair. That was original. It was

53:11

like a real photo. But when

53:13

I came back, the first thing

53:15

I said I'm gonna do is

53:17

I want to create a caricature.

53:19

It can't be a photo anymore.

53:21

So we create a character of

53:23

the logo. It's basically a giant

53:25

afro with two heads. That's what

53:27

it became. Two heads and always

53:29

say one head of hair. One

53:31

head of hair. Yeah. And you're

53:33

gonna come out with your own

53:35

product, Lenny and Larry's, in shops,

53:37

and it's going to be a

53:39

brownie. And so we find, I

53:41

find someone to manufacture the brownie.

53:43

We design the film. everything. We

53:45

ordered 72,000 brownies, 36,000 of two

53:47

flavors, had those shipped to a

53:49

warehouse that we rented, and we're

53:51

sitting there with 72,000 brownies and

53:53

said, now we have to go

53:55

sell these. You did not have

53:57

any commitments? Nope, not a single

53:59

commitment. Nope, not a single commitment.

54:01

And how long would these brownies

54:03

last? Oh, they would last, yeah,

54:05

15 months easily. Okay. Yeah, these

54:07

have a really, really good shelf

54:09

life. Yeah. So how did you

54:11

sell them? First thing we walked

54:13

into the Whole Foods office in

54:15

Sherman Oaks. Did you have a

54:17

connection there? Well, we did, I

54:19

didn't know who was working there.

54:21

We just showed up at the

54:23

office one day and see what

54:25

do you have. and I showed

54:27

her, she goes, I love this,

54:29

let's put it in. That's it.

54:32

That's it. That's it. How much,

54:34

by the way, how much protein

54:36

in each brownie? 20 grams. 20

54:38

grams. And to be clear, you

54:40

did not, sugar was not an

54:42

issue. You weren't worried about sugar

54:44

and carbs, right? No. I felt

54:46

like, again, I was still catering

54:48

to the masses and not the

54:50

bodybuilder fitness I wanted to sell

54:52

to. And not to minimize the

54:54

what this product was and how

54:56

innovative it was. I want to

54:58

jump ahead, but there was a

55:00

little product. It was a cookie.

55:02

It had a label on it

55:04

and it had a little, like

55:06

a sheet in the back that

55:08

you could print our nutritious on.

55:10

And we sold that locally to

55:12

7-Elevens and a lot of office

55:14

buildings and stuff like that. This

55:16

is a protein cookie. But it

55:18

didn't have a great shelf life.

55:20

And a clear package, you can

55:22

see the package and light oxygen

55:24

can destroy it, but it. Had

55:26

a couple weeks shelf life. And

55:28

we remember a call we had

55:30

with vitamin shop, and vitamin shop

55:32

said, if you could get a

55:34

shelf life on your cookie, we

55:36

would take that also. And I

55:38

went, okay. Because how long did

55:40

the cookie last? A couple of

55:42

weeks. And that was because of

55:44

the packaging? Yeah, because of the

55:46

packaging. Yeah, because of the packaging.

55:48

And so I had the light

55:50

bulb moment again. It's like, I

55:52

got to design a film for

55:54

that cookie. And we did. Then,

55:56

I would say the rest is

55:58

history, but the cookie just became

56:00

an absolute. monster. I wanted like

56:02

again I was trading I wasn't

56:04

creating a low sugar you know

56:06

low carb product I was trading

56:08

out a freaking cookie. It had

56:10

flour and had sugar it had

56:12

everything 400 calories became popular with

56:14

college kids construction workers teachers people

56:16

they could say for a buck

56:18

99 I get this giant cookie

56:20

it's very filling I can grab

56:22

I'll grab my red bowl and

56:24

I'll grab a linear hilarious cookie.

56:27

I mean one cookie I'm looking at

56:29

today I think it's probably similar 10

56:32

grams of fiber yeah 16 grams of

56:34

protein but you know 26 grams of

56:36

sugar yeah but but I guess you

56:39

just were like maybe people can choose

56:41

this it's marginally better than a an

56:43

oriole or a twinky that was that

56:46

was that was everything I want to

56:48

create a better bad I want people

56:50

to make a better choice and nobody's

56:53

gonna go from eating a you know,

56:55

a little Debbie to eating some sort

56:57

of protein bar. It just, there's, there's,

57:00

there's, there has to be something, there

57:02

has to be a stop in the

57:04

middle. Yeah. What are the cookie retail

57:07

for? Retail from, anywhere from like a

57:09

dollar ninety nine to two forty nine,

57:11

that range. And how much should it

57:14

cost to make? Less than 50 cents?

57:16

Yeah. We weren't, we weren't shy about

57:18

making, making a profit. What we liked

57:21

about us, like we were, we never

57:23

had to, we never had to raise

57:25

money, we never had investors, never had

57:28

debt. So, okay, so by 2014, are

57:30

you still primarily in California only? No,

57:32

we're, we're everywhere at that time. We're

57:35

really, we're really starting to take off.

57:37

2014, we're about doing about 11 million

57:39

in revenue. So you hit $11 million

57:42

in sales by 2014. Yeah. or mainly

57:44

on the strength of the cookies not

57:46

the muscle brownies. No, the muscle brownies.

57:49

No, the muscle brownies was still there.

57:51

It just literally caught fire. Why do

57:53

you think that is? I mean, I

57:56

think the answer is just because cookies

57:58

are much bigger, more popular snack than

58:00

brownies. Well, that's it. And a brownie

58:03

is considered a decadent treat. It's not

58:05

something you would eat every day. You'd

58:07

eat a cookie every day. Even though,

58:10

like, nutritionally, they're pretty similar. Yes, exactly.

58:12

But it's funny guy, when we talk

58:14

about like, we talk about sugar and

58:17

carbs and, you know, all this nutrition

58:19

stuff, you and I are still in

58:21

the minority of the minority of that.

58:24

world. The rest of the country is

58:26

still trying to make a better choice,

58:28

but they're not going to make an

58:31

extreme choice. So people still want to

58:33

have their, you know, cake and eat

58:35

it too. They'll sacrifice something in order

58:38

to eat a something that's just a

58:40

little bit less bad that had some

58:42

nutritional benefits to them. I completely agree

58:45

with that. I think that's exactly right.

58:47

I think that this has a tiny

58:49

number of people care about sugar and

58:52

carbs. I think most people, you're right,

58:54

if they see protein, fiber, they're good.

58:56

They're not worried about the carbs or

58:59

the other sugar. Okay, so you're just

59:01

growing, like hockey stick. Hockey sticking. So,

59:03

all right. I guess around 2015, you

59:06

are at a trade show. Yep. And

59:08

you guys are... a hot ticket there,

59:10

right? Hot, yep. We just finished, I

59:13

think it's 2014, at 11 million, and

59:15

we're gonna have, we're gonna grow probably

59:17

to, you know, 18 million or something

59:20

the next year, whatever, in 2015, but

59:22

I got introduced to a gentleman named

59:24

Nick Gianuzzi, and Nick is an incredible

59:27

attorney, it represents, pretty much every CPG

59:29

brand that's been sold, he's always represented

59:31

them. Nick, pull me aside, and just

59:34

said, I love your brand, he goes,

59:36

he goes. jokingly he just said stop

59:38

effing around and start doubling your revenue

59:41

and you're gonna get notice and I

59:43

was like okay it inspired me to

59:45

want to really turbocharge myself So we

59:48

went from 11 to 27 million in

59:50

one year by opening up accounts and

59:52

actually managing, servicing the accounts we already

59:55

had. How many employees did you have?

59:57

2014, 2015 we may have had seven.

59:59

God, with 27 million coming in, that's

1:00:02

an efficient business. And that's the only

1:00:04

way we knew how to do it.

1:00:06

I never believed in hiring when you

1:00:09

have to hire. I believe in paying

1:00:11

your people more money that are there.

1:00:13

And we had a great, we had

1:00:16

a great small little ragtag team. And

1:00:18

from there, 27 million turned into 94

1:00:20

million in revenue the next year. By

1:00:23

2016. By 2016. And what percentage of

1:00:25

that do you think was the cookies?

1:00:27

Probably, probably 90%. Were you worried at

1:00:29

all that this was not going to

1:00:32

last, that you would have competitors coming

1:00:34

in? I mean, that in other words,

1:00:36

did you think like, we better really

1:00:39

make a bunch of snacks because otherwise

1:00:41

we're just going to get General Mills

1:00:43

or whoever Nabisco is going to come

1:00:46

in and do this? I'll be 100%

1:00:48

honest with you. I have never in

1:00:50

my life worried about a so-called competitor.

1:00:53

And that's not being cocky. It's just

1:00:55

like, if I'm worried about what someone

1:00:57

else is doing. Then I'm not worried

1:01:00

about what I'm doing, so I didn't

1:01:02

care what you were doing. I was

1:01:04

building a brand, but I fought a

1:01:07

bunch of other things along that journey

1:01:09

that could have destroyed my business. Like

1:01:11

what? Well, one was an issue with

1:01:14

one of our manufacturers. I got a

1:01:16

call from one of our retailers in

1:01:18

Florida that said, hey, we're starting to

1:01:21

see these little, we'll call them little

1:01:23

bugs. They're in a cookie, no kidding.

1:01:25

Like a little smoth. And they're called

1:01:28

meal moths. So they get in flower

1:01:30

like flowers than sitting for a long

1:01:32

time whatever. Yes, I've seen that I've

1:01:35

had that. Okay. So so have that

1:01:37

happened with a like a retailer for

1:01:39

now social media is out there and

1:01:42

the first thing people do is they

1:01:44

want to start posting you're just oh

1:01:46

yeah. Yeah. And I had to take

1:01:49

that along. myself I literally post I

1:01:51

was doing our own social media at

1:01:53

the time and I actually posted my

1:01:56

own phone number and just said anyone

1:01:58

who gets I said I'll trust me

1:02:00

out I said I'm gonna handle this

1:02:03

I'm gonna you know I apologize to

1:02:05

everyone or whatever and it was real

1:02:07

quick we were able to isolate it

1:02:10

real quick because it was one flavor

1:02:12

and we knew the actual group that

1:02:14

actually made it so we're able to

1:02:17

isolate and pull all that product but

1:02:19

anything to damage your reputation it just

1:02:21

makes you you you don't sleep at

1:02:24

night yeah for sure I mean, but

1:02:26

still, I mean, even with all that,

1:02:28

like, as you mentioned, I think by

1:02:31

2016, I mean, you guys are doing,

1:02:33

like, almost $100 million in revenue. And

1:02:35

then I think that same year, you

1:02:38

decide you're going to find, you're going

1:02:40

to sell it. You're going to sell

1:02:42

the brand again. Yeah, well, it's only

1:02:45

because people start, that's what people start

1:02:47

coming for you. And you're just, you're

1:02:49

fielding call after call after call after

1:02:52

call, a lot of... the general not

1:02:54

general mills but general mills type companies

1:02:56

will say big companies are coming for

1:02:59

you they're asking about you they're they

1:03:01

want to buy your company and we

1:03:03

had 28 interested parties right out of

1:03:06

the gate and then I'm like shit

1:03:08

pardon my French but the we had

1:03:10

just moved in this beautiful warehouse office

1:03:13

I was just just just starting to

1:03:15

enjoy this I didn't really want to

1:03:17

sell and then you're starting to feel

1:03:20

like some big offers for your business

1:03:22

And you accept an offer from a

1:03:24

group called Lion Capital. Correct. First of

1:03:27

all, I'm curious, was there an option

1:03:29

to go to get acquired by a

1:03:31

big food brand? There were a couple

1:03:34

at the table and had made offers.

1:03:36

And I'm just being honest with you,

1:03:38

if I was going to sell it,

1:03:41

I was going to sell it to

1:03:43

the highest bidders. High-bitters? Yes, I hear.

1:03:45

All right, so they were the highest

1:03:48

bidder. And they acquired you for, I

1:03:50

think it was a mixturester of cash

1:03:52

and equity and equity, right. Yeah, they

1:03:55

so they bought end up buying 75%

1:03:57

of the business and we're at the

1:03:59

time now you understand this is seven

1:04:02

years ago. So if you're equating it

1:04:04

to the value of today, so at

1:04:06

the time we were valued at $250

1:04:09

million. Not bad. And so we sold

1:04:11

75% of the business. And it was

1:04:13

just because how our business was structured,

1:04:16

we were in S-corp, it had some

1:04:18

value to them. And so Nick Guianuzzi,

1:04:20

who I mentioned earlier, he represented us,

1:04:23

he was our attorney, and he told

1:04:25

us, point blank, he said, don't expect

1:04:27

to get the second bite of the

1:04:30

apple. All right, so this begins a

1:04:32

period of what you're still in today

1:04:34

And and they're not on this in

1:04:37

the in this interview So I want

1:04:39

to be careful and mindful and respectful

1:04:41

of them So I'm gonna play the

1:04:44

part of defending them a little bit

1:04:46

here, but sure but you are still

1:04:48

in this situation where you own Still

1:04:51

a chunk of the business Correct and

1:04:53

technically you're on the board, right? I'm

1:04:55

on the board. Yeah, okay, but when

1:04:58

you left or when when they bought

1:05:00

you out Yeah, they replaced you with

1:05:02

a new CEO right correct I, you

1:05:05

said that the first time you sold

1:05:07

it, 2001, was the worst day of

1:05:09

your life. Terrible. When you sold it

1:05:12

for the second time, you say it

1:05:14

was the second worst day of my

1:05:16

life. Yep, I still live by that.

1:05:19

I miss my people more than, more

1:05:21

than anything. These are my team members.

1:05:23

These are people that helped me grow

1:05:26

this business. So, yeah, I, to this

1:05:28

day, I wish I'd never would have

1:05:30

sold my company. Okay, so while you're

1:05:33

the company, okay, they take it over,

1:05:35

you're out as the CEO, but you're

1:05:37

still an advisor ostensibly. Yeah. But, and

1:05:40

look, I see Lenny and Larry's everywhere.

1:05:42

Every time I go to Whole Foods,

1:05:44

I see it everywhere. It's a, it's

1:05:47

a, that logo just pops, I see

1:05:49

those, that, that Afro. So I'm under

1:05:51

the impression that things are swimming, are

1:05:54

great, going great. You have a different

1:05:56

view here. You are not happy with

1:05:58

how it how it shook out. You're

1:06:01

not happy with the current owners of

1:06:03

the brand. Not at all. I have

1:06:05

no problem saying that. We're just we're

1:06:08

not each other's cup of tea and

1:06:10

It's just bad decision after bad decision,

1:06:12

bad hire after bad hire. They hired,

1:06:15

this is no lie. Within six months

1:06:17

of selling the company to them, we

1:06:19

went from 17 employees to 59 employees.

1:06:22

The business isn't triple. They only grow

1:06:24

the business about six to eight percent

1:06:26

a year if that. They destroyed profitability.

1:06:29

I felt like I handed them a

1:06:31

Ferrari and they turned it into a

1:06:33

Ford Taurus. But what would the, I

1:06:36

mean, look, I'm looking at their portfolio.

1:06:38

This is clearly a sophisticated group. I

1:06:40

mean, they own kettle chips, that's just

1:06:43

in food, but they own beverage and

1:06:45

hospitality and jewelry and licensing, personal care.

1:06:47

I mean, they've made a bunch of

1:06:50

cash in different, in different, in different

1:06:52

places. Like, there's no question on my

1:06:54

mind. I think you're being nice by

1:06:57

saying sophisticated. After they bought the company,

1:06:59

they said, we need to professionalize the

1:07:01

management in this company. And that means

1:07:04

we weren't professional enough in their advice.

1:07:06

Then you fast forward about, you know,

1:07:08

four or five years later, they go,

1:07:11

we gotta go back to being an

1:07:13

entrepreneurial brand. Well, that's what we were.

1:07:15

That's what we always were, was an

1:07:18

entrepreneurial brand. And they never really embraced

1:07:20

it because they had to come in,

1:07:22

they had to show, we know what

1:07:25

we're doing. And they just don't. And

1:07:27

they just don't. Okay. Because again, you

1:07:29

know what, we don't do this in

1:07:32

our documentary show. Yeah, only have you

1:07:34

on here. So I've got to be

1:07:36

respectful of lying to everyone. And there's,

1:07:39

you know, there's emotional. It's like a

1:07:41

house, it's like a business. It's like

1:07:43

anything that somebody creates where I'm emotionally

1:07:46

attached to how I built this, right?

1:07:48

The reality is that you can just

1:07:50

let it go if you want to.

1:07:53

And just say, you know what, I'm

1:07:55

just going to let it go. And

1:07:57

I. Whatever it is what it is.

1:08:00

Oh I and I and I have

1:08:02

I don't okay. Okay. Good fact we're

1:08:04

talking about it. It's fine like said

1:08:07

I don't it is healthy. That's healthy.

1:08:09

Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I

1:08:11

don't think about them ever do a

1:08:13

board call even now and then, whatever,

1:08:16

but I don't even, I don't comment

1:08:18

on the call. I don't even go

1:08:20

on the screen. I'm just on mute

1:08:23

and I'm listening. But yeah, then there's

1:08:25

always two sides to every story and

1:08:27

I 100% agree with that. Here's the

1:08:30

thing, right? And this is like a

1:08:32

fear that I think a lot of

1:08:34

people have, especially as they get into

1:08:37

their 50s, which is you've had some

1:08:39

success in your professional life. whether it's

1:08:41

a business or you're working for a

1:08:44

company or whatever, and for a variety

1:08:46

of reasons, that ends. And you can

1:08:48

live for the rest of your life.

1:08:51

Yeah. Like, right? You can be, you

1:08:53

can live off what you made and

1:08:55

live a good life, but you lose

1:08:58

that purpose, that sense of purpose, which

1:09:00

is really scary. I did, I did

1:09:02

care about my brand a lot. When

1:09:05

you look back on this whole journey

1:09:07

and you think about where you got

1:09:09

to, because you did really, did really

1:09:12

well. Yeah, you didn't, you know. Here

1:09:14

I am. How much of where you

1:09:16

got to do, do tribute to the

1:09:19

work you put in the grind and

1:09:21

how much you think has to do

1:09:23

with getting lucky? Yeah. I just don't

1:09:26

like the word luck. I might. My

1:09:28

thing was always said, luck wins you

1:09:30

the lottery. I created my own lottery.

1:09:33

That's Barry Turner, co-founder of Lenian Larry's.

1:09:35

By the way, I think there's something

1:09:37

you're not telling me that you, I

1:09:40

think you're concealing from me here, which

1:09:42

is I'm looking at the cast of

1:09:44

that movie you were in, Death Becomes,

1:09:47

and Fabio was in that movie. You

1:09:49

know what? You're right. You are right.

1:09:51

You did not tell me that. I

1:09:54

forgot about that. Fabio was your co-star.

1:09:56

Well, you were in a movie together.

1:09:58

Yeah, there's Fabio. I wonder what he's

1:10:01

doing these days. He seems like a

1:10:03

nice guy. I think he's done some

1:10:05

like self-parity stuff. Yeah, that's my buddy.

1:10:08

Hey, thanks so much for listening to

1:10:10

the show this week. Please make sure

1:10:12

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or on Substack. This episode was produced

1:10:24

by J.C. Howard with music composed by

1:10:26

Rumtine Arab Louie. It was edited by

1:10:29

Niva Grant with research help with Catherine

1:10:31

Sifer. Our audio engineers were Patrick Murray

1:10:33

and James Keeley. Our production staff also

1:10:36

includes Alex Chung, Carla Estez, Casey Herman,

1:10:38

Sam Paulson, Carrie Thompson, John Isabella, and

1:10:40

Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Ross and you've

1:10:43

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1:10:52

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