0:00

You know, for many years we've been

0:02

an ad in the Super Bowl for

0:04

our booking.com company. I just recently got

0:06

the most recent one that is being

0:08

looked at for the upcoming game and

0:11

all that. And they say, what do

0:13

you think? And I always say, it

0:15

doesn't matter what I think. It's irrelevant.

0:17

It's what have you come up with? And

0:19

is this worth of money to spend on

0:21

it? Or should we sell the stock or

0:24

not? It's nice to you to ask me,

0:26

but what the heck do I know. What

0:36

if the key to strong leadership isn't

0:38

having all the answers, but rather having

0:40

the wisdom encouraged to say I don't

0:42

know? Welcome to how leaders lead. I'm

0:44

David Dobak and every week I have

0:47

conversations with the very best leaders in

0:49

the world to hope you become the

0:51

best leader that you can be.

0:53

My guest today is Glenn Fogle, the

0:56

CEO of booking holdings. That's the company

0:58

behind big travel brands like booking.com, kayak,

1:00

price line, and open table. Now

1:02

having been at the company for 25

1:05

years. Glenn's got a heck of a

1:07

lot of experience to draw, and yet he's

1:09

the first to admit when something

1:11

isn't in his area of expertise.

1:13

And instead of guessing, he trusts

1:15

the experts on his team to

1:17

guide the way. You see, great companies aren't

1:20

built by ego. They're built

1:22

by leaders who ask questions, listen,

1:24

and rely on the smart people around

1:26

them. And in this conversation,

1:28

you'll hear exactly how Glenn

1:30

does it. Plus the lessons

1:33

he's learned riding elephants

1:35

in Thailand. We both

1:38

have a story to

1:40

share there. And surviving

1:42

a Wall Street firing.

1:45

And I'm glad I

1:47

don't have a story

1:49

to share there. So

1:52

here's my conversation with

1:54

my good friend and

1:57

soon to be yours,

1:59

Glenfogle. and you know they had

2:01

this big event and they they put

2:03

me on this elephant and I I

2:06

was my my legs were stretched out

2:08

so wide but and I was on

2:10

this thing what seemed like I had

2:12

to be an hour okay and I

2:14

finally got off and it it I

2:17

think I was out of commission for

2:19

about three days. You know, and that's

2:21

one of my travel stories that I

2:23

have, and I know you travel the

2:25

world. Do you have any stories that

2:28

really stand out for you as you

2:30

think about what you've been able to

2:32

see is the CEO? Well, so let's

2:34

go to Thailand, and so it's Northern

2:36

Thailand, and it's the summer after my

2:39

first year of law school, instead of

2:41

working. I decided I'm going to just

2:43

go off to Asia for three months

2:45

and just travel around by myself. I

2:48

didn't have a lot of money, but

2:50

you know, go cheap. You know, the

2:52

old hippie trails, they called it back

2:54

in the days. So I'm out of

2:56

Chen Rai and I'm going to get

2:59

together with a bunch of people like

3:01

that. We're going to get somebody to

3:03

another one point. So you absolutely were

3:05

not. told the right way to ride

3:07

on an elephant is the head of

3:10

the elephant. First of all, and they

3:12

had those seats, those you know chairs

3:14

type things, but those after like two

3:16

or three hours, that's really uncomfortable too.

3:18

It doesn't, no matter what position you

3:21

are, it's not good. So, but what

3:23

is comfortable is sitting right on the

3:25

neck in the head of the elephant.

3:27

That's fine. The problem is though, is

3:30

the element every so often wants to

3:32

put his head down and maybe get

3:34

some water or look at something or

3:36

he wants to put his head up

3:38

and he wants to go get a

3:41

leaf or something with his trunk. And

3:43

so you have to be very conscious

3:45

of when the helmet's going to move

3:47

its head. I love it. I should

3:49

have had that coaching before I went

3:52

to Thailand and got that from you.

3:54

I need that. You know, traveling the

3:56

world, that's on everybody's bucket list, Glenn.

3:58

I mean, everybody wants to travel the

4:00

world. How do you tap into that

4:03

human desire in your company? The thing

4:05

that you just said is so true.

4:07

There's maybe something in our DNA. And

4:09

maybe, you know, a million years ago,

4:12

the Homo sapien, whatever our species was,

4:14

a million years ago, for whatever reason

4:16

in the, somewhere in the Serenquetti, there's

4:18

just this desire to see what's over

4:20

the next hill. And they did. And

4:23

that's how, obviously, the human species spread

4:25

around. all over the world and everything.

4:27

There's just this desire to see something

4:29

else. I don't know why, but I

4:31

think it's just in our DNA. So

4:34

we don't need a create demand. What

4:36

we need to do to be successful

4:38

is to help make it easier. And

4:40

that's why our mission is making it

4:42

easier for everybody to experience the world.

4:45

And that's what we're trying to accomplish,

4:47

booking holdings and all the companies that

4:49

are part of it. Yeah, that's a

4:51

huge noble cause, really. You know, and

4:53

you think about it, because you tap

4:56

into this innate desire, and every company,

4:58

you know, kind of want to have

5:00

something to get you up every day

5:02

and knows that you're doing good. I

5:05

bet that has to generate a lot

5:07

of pride with your people. It does.

5:09

And in comparison, and you think about

5:11

it, the scientists who are trying to

5:13

come up with solutions to a terrible

5:16

disease, those are the real heroes, and

5:18

it's easier to motivate. We're trying to

5:20

save the world from a terrible disease.

5:22

That's easy motivation. I once applied a

5:24

time, I worked on Wall Street. And

5:27

I kind of think the mission really

5:29

was to make money. Well, you know,

5:31

we talked about how well we're providing

5:33

a way to get capital to companies

5:35

to help them grow. It was nice.

5:38

It's true. There's nothing not true about

5:40

it. But I got the feeling that

5:42

most people there weren't really for that

5:44

mission. They were really for fattening the

5:47

bank account of their own. So it's

5:49

better when I left Wall Street and

5:51

I started working at a company that

5:53

felt, you know, this is a really

5:55

good mission. It maybe we're not as

5:58

noble as the scientists solving can. But

6:00

we are doing something that is making

6:02

the world a better place. I truly

6:04

believe that. I truly really believe that.

6:06

And every day when we see successful

6:09

trips and we know that we've done

6:11

a good job, that gives me pleasure.

6:13

That's fantastic. And you know, I was

6:15

wondering when you were a kid, was

6:17

travel a big part of your upbringing

6:20

and if so, what did that teach

6:22

it? It absolutely was not as a

6:24

kid. And it's funny. I know every...

6:26

vacation I took with my family between

6:29

you know until I went off to

6:31

college and it's a single-digit number and

6:33

a couple were by car but it

6:35

was exciting but then I got to

6:37

college and I wanted to see the

6:40

world my folks I'm first-generation college my

6:42

brother and I first in our college

6:44

generation to go to college my parents

6:46

had only been in the US for

6:48

the most part but They did when

6:51

I was a senior high school, maybe,

6:53

or junior, I don't mind saying that,

6:55

they went off to Europe. And they

6:57

came back and they're talking, wow, this

6:59

is incredible. And all these kids are

7:02

going around on there when they're napsacks

7:04

and this is the, maybe late 70s.

7:06

And so when I go off to

7:08

college, I'm going to do this too.

7:11

And after my sophomore year, I signed

7:13

up and there was a program in

7:15

northern Spain, Santander. And it was to

7:17

do Spanish to learn Spanish. at the

7:19

Unifersidad Mendez Palaiso. And I went there

7:22

and it was wonderful and this international,

7:24

these people are all like, I'm doing

7:26

this again. And the next summer, instead

7:28

of getting the job, I went off

7:30

with a friend and we, you know,

7:33

using our Europass, we're all over Europe

7:35

and everything, you know, it costs very

7:37

low, very low costs. And I just

7:39

got the bug. And then, as I

7:41

mentioned, after I went to a first

7:44

year at law school, I went out

7:46

first year at law school, I went

7:48

out first year at law school, I

7:50

went out first year at law school,

7:53

I went, I went, I went to

7:55

law school, I went to law school,

7:57

I went, I went there. pleasure of

7:59

seeing parts of the world and seeing

8:01

how it can really bring people together

8:04

learning new and different things. Well I

8:06

forgot to mention, I'll just studied in

8:08

the Soviet Union when I was at

8:10

the universe, forgot that part, about six

8:12

weeks in between semesters in the winter.

8:15

That was fascinating at the time. You

8:17

know, Ronald Reagan was president of the

8:19

United States, it was the evil empire

8:21

to go and speak and deal with

8:23

people, my college, each people, talked to

8:26

them, and it's a first generation college.

8:28

student, which the same thing, that's what

8:30

I was too. I never really had

8:32

that kind of travel. I did live

8:35

in like 23 states by the time

8:37

I was in 7th grade because my

8:39

dad was a government surveyor, but it

8:41

was always exciting going to that next

8:43

spot, you know, figuring out, you know,

8:46

what the place is going to be

8:48

like, the people you're going to meet.

8:50

But that was hard. That many different

8:52

places before you're growing up, I mean,

8:54

going to each school, how to make,

8:57

you know, you know, new friends. Yeah,

8:59

I thought everybody did it, Glenn. You

9:01

know, when you're a kid, that's what

9:03

you do. I just thought that's what

9:05

everybody. And my mom would say, hey,

9:08

you better make friends because we're moving,

9:10

you know. And it was a good

9:12

thing for me. I think it helped

9:14

me learn a lot of things about

9:17

leadership, you know. So I understand you

9:19

had a stroke when you're only 17

9:21

years old, you know, what kind of

9:23

perspective that did that give you at

9:25

such a young age and such a

9:28

young age? What kind of impact has

9:30

that had on the way you lead

9:32

if you think about it? Yeah, so

9:34

I was 17, it was a spring

9:36

of my junior year in high school,

9:39

and I woke up in the morning

9:41

and I just really, something's not right,

9:43

not really saying well, I don't really

9:45

understand what's going on. And I'm going

9:47

to... get myself ready to go to

9:50

school, brush my teeth, and I'm bumping

9:52

into the walls so much so I

9:54

wake up my parents and they come

9:56

and they see me and they say,

9:59

oh this isn't good all they call

10:01

over doctor off the hospital all that.

10:03

What has happened is I have a

10:05

left temporal stroke and my entire right

10:07

side very quickly becomes paralyzed and I

10:10

lose all my ability. to communicate. Can't

10:12

speak. It's not because the mouth isn't

10:14

where the actual language parts of the

10:16

brain are now gone. And that was

10:18

a change because I was a pretty

10:21

smart kid in high school and everything

10:23

was looking pretty good and I had

10:25

to put in on my application. I

10:27

was getting ready. I did all my

10:29

stuff for the SAT so I was

10:32

already in the fall and apply to

10:34

colleges and everything's all good. Now since

10:36

I've gone from something to what I

10:38

feel is nothing. And it took time

10:41

to get back to get back to

10:43

be better, so to speak. What's interesting,

10:45

though, is somebody that age. You don't

10:47

think about that, oh, I'm not going

10:49

to get better, maybe. It never occurred

10:52

to me that wasn't going to happen.

10:54

I would get frustrated when I couldn't

10:56

do certain things, but it never occurred

10:58

to me that I wouldn't eventually be

11:00

able to get back, so to speak,

11:03

as I was before. What's interesting, though.

11:05

is my mother, she's long gone now,

11:07

but she would, and told my wife,

11:09

many times my wife would tell me,

11:11

she says, you know, she keeps, your

11:14

mom keeps telling me how, before you

11:16

had a stroke, you were a smart

11:18

kid. I'm like, thank you, mom. What

11:20

it definitely did do is I, I'm

11:23

not sure if that did it, or

11:25

just as you get older, and you

11:27

recognize it's not as easy for everybody.

11:29

And bad things happen. that there wasn't

11:31

their fault, just bad things can happen.

11:34

And you try and be empathetic. And

11:36

when you have to take actions that

11:38

are going to hurt people and as

11:40

a leader to be successful and to

11:42

do what is necessary, sometimes you're going

11:45

to take actions that are going to

11:47

hurt people. When you have to let

11:49

people go, even though they were good

11:51

workers, during the pandemic, we let go

11:53

25% of our employees. Wasn't 25% of

11:56

the people weren't bad workers. They didn't

11:58

not show up, not show up. We

12:00

had no business. Can them get shut

12:02

down? entirely. I mean, and at that

12:05

time, we hadn't do certain things that

12:07

were definitely hurtful. And you recognize, okay,

12:09

we're going to try to do this

12:11

the best way possible. So we don't

12:13

do, well, what is the minimum required

12:16

by law or by contract? We do

12:18

it to try and make it as

12:20

best we can, given the resources we

12:22

have at the time. And while obviously

12:24

one can never be happy about that,

12:27

I am pleased that we all of

12:29

us at the leadership level did get

12:31

communications, notes, emails, people said something like,

12:33

look, I really said I have to

12:35

leave, but you guys have done this

12:38

the right way, which is very different

12:40

than what happened when I was fired

12:42

from a job on Wall Street. That

12:44

was a very different situation where person

12:47

comes in, says, you know, actually comes

12:49

in, so you have to go to

12:51

this meeting, so you go to the

12:53

meeting, show up the meeting, and they

12:55

tell you, listen, listen, you're, You know,

12:58

job has been eliminated. You'll get two

13:00

weeks, sevens, or whatever it was, some

13:02

nominal amount. And thank you for playing.

13:04

Bye, bye. And oh, tell me, you'll

13:06

take up your stuff from the desk

13:09

and will deliver it to your home.

13:11

Like, don't even like, go back to

13:13

your desk. Just doors that way. Nice

13:15

big man will help show you the

13:17

way in case you're getting lost. Yeah,

13:20

you've been working place. You're not going

13:22

to get well. How to get out.

13:24

You know. just the agony that you

13:26

had, you know, letting that 25% of

13:29

your work for force go during COVID,

13:31

you know, I can see it, you

13:33

know, it really moved you. What do

13:35

you do attitudeily as a leader when

13:37

you get backed up against a wall

13:40

like that and you know you have

13:42

to do something you don't want to

13:44

do? How do you, how do you

13:46

deal with that moment as a leader?

13:48

Again, it's what you're trying to do

13:51

for the people who are going to

13:53

remain. is very important. So it's not

13:55

just how are you going to deal

13:57

with the people who are... to have

13:59

to leave is how are you going

14:02

to do in a way and what

14:04

are you going to do for the

14:06

people afterwards to maintain their ability to

14:08

continue to do what is necessary to

14:11

move this organization forward and how are

14:13

you going to motivate your leaders because

14:15

you can't do everything at once. We

14:17

had 26,000 people maybe 27,000 people at

14:19

the time and I can't talk to

14:21

27,000 people so I need to make

14:24

sure that I am talking yes I'll

14:26

talk to the entire company through broadcast

14:28

mechanisms of course. But person to

14:30

person with our extended leadership

14:32

people, a few hundred of

14:34

them, where I'm talking much

14:37

more to get them to

14:39

make sure everybody understands what's

14:41

happening, communicate, communicate, communicate, tell

14:43

them the truth, tell them

14:45

what has happened, why it's

14:47

happening, and how in the

14:50

end, in the end, we will be

14:52

able to overcome this. Now, this is

14:54

what I said, you know, I said, look, most

14:56

of the people who are going to

14:58

end up, and having been let go

15:01

myself, having been fired myself, I am

15:03

somewhat familiar with it can. It can't

15:05

work out fine, it can be okay.

15:07

But the thing is, there's also, knowing

15:10

the back of your mind though, some

15:12

people are never going to recover

15:14

from this. Some people, it's just

15:16

not going to work for them.

15:18

In a very large group, they're

15:20

going to copy or going to

15:22

react, and it's just not going

15:24

to be good. But you can't

15:26

do anything about that. I can't,

15:28

you can. Tough things about leadership,

15:30

but you always have to think

15:32

about the team that's going to

15:34

go forward. Totally. And look, we've

15:36

all been there, you've been there,

15:38

I'm sure, many, many times. It's

15:40

one of the unfund parts of

15:43

leadership. It's fun when you're winning.

15:45

It's not as much fun when you

15:47

have to make very hard choices that

15:49

you know are going to hurt people.

15:51

Hey everyone, it's cool. And if you

15:54

are looking for a resource to help

15:56

you level up as a leader, go

15:58

and get our weekly leadership digest. round-up

16:00

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16:02

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16:09

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16:11

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16:15

how Leaders Lee.com/digest and get it today.

16:17

You mentioned earlier Glenn that you started

16:19

your career out on Wall Street and

16:21

you know you talked about how there's...

16:23

you know, a lot of people there

16:26

are in it for themselves and they

16:28

didn't necessarily show as much compassion as

16:30

they, you might want to have, you

16:32

know, but when you think about it,

16:34

you know, how did that prepare you

16:36

to lead? I mean, there's so many

16:38

things. And by the way, my first

16:41

job after I went to college, it

16:43

wasn't, it was, it was on Wall

16:45

Street, but it wasn't, I was an

16:47

IT person, I was actually coded on

16:49

Wall Street, and then I said, well,

16:51

I got to get over to the

16:53

other side, not the back office. I

16:55

want to be in the front office,

16:58

but you can't go from being an

17:00

IT guy to being an investment banker

17:02

right away, which is why I then

17:04

went to law school, so I could

17:06

get a job on Wall Street in

17:08

the front office. But that part about

17:10

being on Wall Street and stuff, and

17:13

there's so many things you do learn,

17:15

skills that you do learn. One thing

17:17

that's really important as a very young

17:19

animalist type person where you're basically need.

17:21

for making things perfect. And that's something

17:23

now, which, you know, we talk about

17:25

a lot sometimes is people have to

17:27

have the knowledge that what you do,

17:30

the work, product you do, matters. And

17:32

that can be even something as simple

17:34

as if you're putting together a presentation,

17:36

make sure it's right. Spend the time

17:38

to make it right. And when I

17:40

get stuff that I see that sloppy

17:42

isn't right, or, you know, there's a

17:45

footnote, but I don't know what the

17:47

footnote goes to. Did anybody read this

17:49

before it got to me? And that's

17:51

one thing and I think that Look,

17:53

we know perfection is a goal we

17:55

will never get to, but there's nothing

17:57

wrong with trying to get there. And

17:59

in the year 2000, you joined the

18:02

team at Priceline. What inspired you to

18:04

leave from the world of finance to

18:06

travel? Well, so here's the thing. So

18:08

I am the head trader, Morgan Stanley

18:10

Azim, as a very well-known guy, Barton

18:12

Biggs, really pretty much a Wall Street

18:14

legend. And as a by side trader,

18:17

it's really not that interesting, or at

18:19

least it wasn't to me. Because really

18:21

what I'm trying to do is execute

18:23

the trades in the most price efficient

18:25

way. And at the end of the

18:27

same, I'm like, who cares? And at

18:29

the same time, the internet is booming,

18:31

booming, booming. Now, before I'd been in

18:34

this trading role, which I got after

18:36

I'd been fired, that we did a

18:38

lot of work for the airline industry.

18:40

So I know a lot about the

18:42

airline industry. So I'm thinking, okay, I

18:44

know technology, because I've been a coder,

18:46

I know the air transportation business banker,

18:49

I know a little bit about capital

18:51

markets as a trader, and there's this

18:53

company, Priceline.com, that was this golden child

18:55

coming out in 1999, did their IPO

18:57

in the spring, and the thing is

18:59

just rocketing up. And they need somebody.

19:01

to be a corporate development person. I

19:03

don't think I got a law degree,

19:06

I know about M&A. This is perfect

19:08

for me and it's not far from

19:10

home. Because most of the big, you

19:12

know, the big dot-coms in the turn

19:14

of the century were all over in

19:16

California, you know, Silicon Valley. It's like

19:18

the only big star really on the

19:21

East Coast. And so I applied for

19:23

the job the end of 1999. Going

19:25

to 2000 they offer me the job

19:27

is I'd like to wait so I

19:29

get my bonus because bonuses are paid

19:31

end of February and so I'll come

19:33

the end of February and they'll say

19:35

great. So I leave Morgan Stanley and

19:38

I go to an internet company at

19:40

the last week of February thereby top-taking

19:42

the term is the trade. I've gone

19:44

long internet right as the NAST peaks

19:46

first week of March 2000 and the

19:48

thing is it proved that it was

19:50

smart for me to leave being head

19:53

trade or Morgan Stanley. because I clearly

19:55

know nothing about trading, having top-taked the

19:57

trade going along internet in 2000. In

19:59

the time I've gone, a week after,

20:01

I joined the company, the stock at

20:03

the time is worth, let's see, 15

20:05

billion or so, market cap, goes up

20:07

very quickly, almost double. It really goes

20:10

up quickly, and I'm like, wow, I'm

20:12

a genius, until a few months later.

20:14

End of 2000 were almost flat out

20:16

of money and flat broken, going bankrupt

20:18

real fast. People thought I, you know,

20:20

the job, thought the company disappeared, thought

20:22

my job, just even my mom probably

20:24

was thinking like, you know, what did

20:27

you do to yourself? That was crazy.

20:29

But I stayed. I stayed all time.

20:31

So I've now been there 25 years.

20:33

And over those 25 years at the

20:35

bottom part of our worst thing. We

20:37

were, what was then a dollar a

20:39

share, we did a reverse split just

20:42

so we could stay listed. So it

20:44

was six, six for one. So the

20:46

stock price on a reverse split basis

20:48

is $6. Proxily $4,800, let's round off

20:50

right now, okay? So that's from $6

20:52

to $4,800 over 25 years. So that,

20:54

think about that 800 times. 100 times

20:56

and if you do that on a

20:59

compound annual rate. So over a quarter

21:01

of a century, quarter of a century,

21:03

we have provided our investors with a

21:05

keger that is over 30 percent. There

21:07

are very few companies that have ever

21:09

been able to achieve that. You can

21:11

say that again, but and I will

21:14

also tell you this, if I've ever

21:16

had the great opportunity to have dinner

21:18

with you, you're buying. No problem. Be

21:20

happy to do it. And by the

21:22

way, and you're gonna you're gonna appreciate

21:24

this because I know you were a

21:26

Pepsico. I know you're gonna like, I

21:28

know you're gonna go to the hilltop.

21:31

Okay. Or maybe cobblestone. That sounds good

21:33

to me. All right. Now, so you

21:35

joined Priceline and. You acquired several companies

21:37

over the years to get that kind

21:39

of growth that you have. Give me

21:41

a peek into that strategy and the

21:43

part that you played in it. Oh

21:46

boy. It's like how much time do

21:48

we have? How do you make this

21:50

into us? The same story because there's

21:52

so many things you're talking about. So

21:54

the issue is from the very beginning,

21:56

the idea was to be global. Now

21:58

at the time the accounting was such

22:00

that you could basically... Do a joint

22:03

venture essentially and don't have a lot

22:05

of equity in it, but have warrants,

22:07

options, basically a right to buy this

22:09

company down the road and it won't

22:11

be on your balance sheet. So because

22:13

these new startups abroad are going to

22:15

have losses at the beginning and we're

22:18

now already public. So you don't have

22:20

those losses on your own, you know,

22:22

on your own P&L. These are off

22:24

balance sheet entities. Everything is legal. There's

22:26

nothing wrong. This isn't an end right.

22:28

I want to make everybody understand. And

22:30

the rules certainly have changed no doubt.

22:32

But so what we did is we

22:35

made we put together different areas. So

22:37

in Australia, we did a deal with

22:39

Telster, the big telecom thing. For Asia,

22:41

we did this thing with Hodges and

22:43

Wam. power. And now in Europe we

22:45

set up a thing where most of

22:47

the equity came from General Atlantic. And

22:50

the idea is we'll take our IP

22:52

and we'll allow other people to set

22:54

up their businesses there and when they

22:56

become profitable that we will then bring

22:58

them on balance sheet by exercising our

23:00

warrants and that was the way it

23:02

was all going to work. Here's the

23:04

problem though. The concept makes sense unless

23:07

you've ever been a developer. And you

23:09

realize this is not like you just

23:11

have, you know, a price line in

23:13

a box. It's not like you just

23:15

take some disks back in the day,

23:17

like CD-ROM disc and put it in,

23:19

you're going to have a system. It

23:22

actually takes a lot of work to

23:24

actually create these things. And we do

23:26

it at the same time, the whole

23:28

dot-com thing is blown up. So most

23:30

of my role at the beginning is

23:32

shutting down these things that we're set

23:34

up. Because they're losing a fortune. We

23:36

don't have the cash anymore. So that

23:39

was my real job. The one thing

23:41

we kept going though was the European

23:43

war. We put the Asian one we

23:45

put on the side and the Australian

23:47

one we totally shut down. But we

23:49

really want to get it down while

23:51

I lose money. So okay, we're going

23:54

to fire most of the people there.

23:56

And Glenn, you are now in charge

23:58

of Europe. So now I'm commuting from

24:00

the New York to London. to run

24:02

what is now like an eight or

24:04

nine person operation to keep this thing

24:06

going. And we only had really one

24:08

product at the time, which if people

24:11

were a member was called your name

24:13

your own price. It was an auction

24:15

type thing where you could get an

24:17

airline ticket at a very low price,

24:19

you bid, and if you bid, you're

24:21

going to get it, but you don't

24:23

know what time you're going to take

24:25

off. You don't know which way you're

24:28

going to go. You may have to

24:30

make a stop or two. And you

24:32

don't know which airline. Now, for people

24:34

who have time and don't have a

24:36

lot of money, it's not a bad

24:38

thing. In the US, it can be

24:40

very good because of the US. It

24:43

couldn't take all day anyway, unless you're

24:45

in a major, major airport. you're going

24:47

to make a connection at one of

24:49

the hubs. But in Europe, it's not

24:51

quite like that. And somebody sure looked

24:53

into that before we did that deal.

24:55

Because you can go from, let's say,

24:57

London to Paris on Ryanair for five

25:00

pounds. So to save 50% two and

25:02

a half pounds, really that's not a

25:04

lot. Especially if to do that, you're

25:06

going to have to fly London to,

25:08

I don't know, maybe Frankfurt. and then

25:10

go to Paris, it's a stupid product.

25:12

It's a terrible product. So I'm, and

25:15

then, I'm like, what about the hotel

25:17

business? Also name your own price. That

25:19

also is a better product because people

25:21

say, I just want a four star

25:23

in this region. I don't care if

25:25

they help, a Marriott or whatever it's

25:27

like. So that was an okay product.

25:29

But I'm working around saying, we got

25:32

to sell this the way everybody buys

25:34

travel, disclose the price, and tell people

25:36

what they're buying. And does anybody around

25:38

here know how to do this? So

25:40

I'm spending some time going around trying

25:42

to find somebody who knows how to

25:44

do this. And I find this little

25:47

company in a bunch of people who

25:49

graduated from Cambridge. Really smart guys. And

25:51

they built a nice little business doing,

25:53

selling just hotels, only hotels. But the

25:55

way we like it. And they're using

25:57

something called the agency, which means you're

25:59

acting as an agent. You said it

26:01

all up and you. get your money

26:04

from the hotel later after the person

26:06

checks in a commission that the hotel

26:08

sends to you which is a little

26:10

different than how it's done in terms

26:12

of the merchant where the consumer pays

26:14

up front. Anyway so we do this

26:16

we buy the company the great guys

26:19

and all that it's good and then

26:21

I'm looking at where's another company and

26:23

there's another company looks just like this

26:25

company that we just bought. So the

26:27

first company was called Active Hotels in

26:29

Cambridge and what happened is a guy

26:31

who was the CEO of active hotels.

26:33

Because we did the deal, obviously, I

26:36

was only buying it. They were going

26:38

to stay and help build the thing.

26:40

And we buy that. And he says,

26:42

do you guys, do you know the

26:44

company booking.com or Amsterdam? I said, well,

26:46

I kind of know them. I really

26:48

have not spent time with them. Why?

26:51

And this is a Wednesday. And I'm

26:53

supposed to go home Thursday. And there's

26:55

a big travel conference there. And so

26:57

the person says to me, and he

26:59

says, well, they're here for the travel

27:01

conference thing. You want to meet with

27:03

them tomorrow? I'll just go home on

27:05

Thursday. And I say, I don't know.

27:08

Oh, OK, I'll go meet. So I

27:10

call my wife. I'm saying, honey, I'm

27:12

not coming home. I'm not going home

27:14

tomorrow. I've got to see this company.

27:16

I'll be home Friday. This is okay.

27:18

I meet with these guys. Just three

27:20

of them. They're geniuses. It's great. I'm

27:23

looking at their numbers. I'm looking what

27:25

they're doing. They're doing what ActiveO tells

27:27

us doing pretty much, except they are

27:29

using Google. I'm saying, hmm, this is

27:31

very interesting. I'd like to learn one

27:33

more. What could I, maybe I could

27:35

come see you and say, why don't

27:37

you come tomorrow? I say, that's a

27:40

great idea. So I call my wife,

27:42

I say, hi honey, I'm not coming

27:44

home, I'm not coming, I'll come home,

27:46

after, me, home Saturday, I gotta go

27:48

to Amsterdam. Long story short, we've actually

27:50

closed the deal with those guys too,

27:52

put them together, and that's now like

27:55

90% of the business, and it all

27:57

becomes out of so many surreptitious things.

27:59

Why don't you meet these guys? If

28:01

I had said, I gotta go home

28:03

and stuff, who knows what would have

28:05

happened. So many things, on things that,

28:07

it's not because you're so brilliant. It's

28:09

so many other things also that happened,

28:12

made this happen. So when people say,

28:14

well, I do this one by myself,

28:16

no, you didn't. a lot of other

28:18

things happen to be made of this

28:20

success. Yeah, well, as I say in

28:22

Australia, good on you because that was

28:24

a good couple of days that you

28:26

spent, you know, it's a good thing

28:29

you had an understanding wife and it

28:31

certainly paid off for everybody. You know,

28:33

my grandchildren will be very pleased. So

28:35

you get the nod to become CEO

28:37

of booking holdings in January of 2017.

28:39

Help us understand that just the structure

28:41

of your company and how it's organized.

28:44

So we have the holding company, we'll

28:46

call that booking holdings ink. Underneath that

28:48

we have the operating companies, the biggest

28:50

by far booking.com global based in Amsterdam.

28:52

Then for your American listeners, they are

28:54

more familiar probably with things like kayak.

28:56

which is another company, Priceline, we also

28:58

have Open Table, another one. Then there's

29:01

another very big company that I'm sure

29:03

many people in America don't know called

29:05

Agota, which is based in Bangkok. So

29:07

I get to go to Bangkok a

29:09

lot by the way. So... That's why

29:11

you're a professional elephant writer. Exactly. So

29:13

there are a lot, so those are

29:16

the major names, we have other ones

29:18

too, we have other companies too, but

29:20

those are the biggest ones to mention

29:22

really. Rental Cars.com, who was a company

29:24

who acquired that you won't be surprised,

29:26

they do rental cars, based on the

29:28

Manchester UK, we've merged that into booking.com,

29:30

so it still exists as a brand,

29:33

but is wholly part of booking.com and

29:35

booking.com rental cars is actually now bigger

29:37

than the rental car brand, but that's

29:39

a separate issue. You know, one of

29:41

the things that I tried to make

29:43

a priority when I was running young

29:45

brands was making sure that we shared

29:48

best practices across the brands with KFC

29:50

Talkable and Pizza, is that something that

29:52

you think about too or are you

29:54

totally decentralized? No, all the time trying

29:56

to make it more and more. So

29:58

we first started off. So for example,

30:00

when we bought that company, I mentioned

30:02

active hotels and then booking them together

30:05

and put in through and also our

30:07

price line European thing that I mean,

30:09

me and my people, nine people, put

30:11

that all as one thing. The critical

30:13

thing was I did not want to

30:15

do any integration at all. and

30:17

I stressed how

30:20

important that was to

30:22

GF4 elders who

30:24

were there at the

30:26

time. We were

30:28

older, and we all

30:30

agreed that was

30:32

right. And here's the

30:34

thing, one of

30:37

the easiest ways to

30:39

really wreck a

30:41

non -U .S. company that

30:43

is operating outside

30:45

the U .S., one

30:47

of the best ways

30:49

to wreck it,

30:52

is parachute in a

30:54

bunch of Americans

30:56

who don't know anything

30:58

about it, okay?

31:00

The reason we bought

31:02

these companies is

31:04

because they had displayed

31:06

to us an

31:09

ability to be very

31:11

successful. So the

31:13

key thing was creating

31:15

an incentive plan

31:17

that, yes, we are

31:19

buying the companies

31:21

they had founded, but

31:24

we wanted them

31:26

to stay, and we

31:28

wanted them to

31:30

continue to work, and

31:32

we will reward

31:34

them tremendously if they

31:36

are able to

31:38

create the success that

31:41

we believe they

31:43

would be able to

31:45

create. And that's

31:47

who we did. So

31:49

we are very

31:51

separated. There was absolutely

31:53

no centralization. We're

31:56

about as far apart

31:58

as could be,

32:00

and that can cause

32:02

all sorts of

32:04

issues in terms of

32:06

turf, in terms

32:08

of who's doing what.

32:10

But we started

32:13

like that. But over

32:15

time, as each

32:17

company got bigger and

32:19

bigger, and as

32:21

the new booking .com

32:23

that was the combination

32:25

of all came

32:27

into America, went into

32:30

Asia, and it

32:32

go to Scotland, and

32:34

everybody starts mixing

32:36

up, then you have

32:38

to start putting

32:40

together some ground rules,

32:42

and you start

32:45

saying, gee, we'll probably

32:47

better if we

32:49

can learn from each

32:51

other. So we

32:53

are doing more and

32:55

more of that.

32:57

But that is something

32:59

that we always

33:02

have to think about.

33:04

And I'm sure

33:06

you must have found

33:08

this. I'm actually

33:10

interested in your opinion

33:12

and your knowledge

33:14

about this is how

33:17

do you create

33:19

a situation where you

33:21

want people to

33:23

feel they're part of

33:25

something, but you

33:27

also want them to

33:29

feel part of

33:31

the whole. And to

33:34

create people who

33:36

say, yes, I'm really

33:38

big, I am

33:40

a KFC person, but

33:42

I'm also a

33:44

young person. And how

33:46

you create that,

33:49

and that's something that

33:51

we're still working

33:53

in progress, that's called.

33:55

I think it's

33:57

the thing that every

33:59

holding company struggles

34:01

with. balance between decentralization and centralization and

34:03

it's something that you know work very

34:06

hard at. We really believe that the

34:08

know-how building was a big part of

34:10

our strategy but we were all in

34:12

the restaurant business pretty similar just to

34:14

your business so we incentivize people to

34:16

share you know so if you if

34:18

you offered up a best practice and

34:21

the world adopted it, you know, you

34:23

got a bigger bonus, you know, and

34:25

we shouted it from the the rooftop

34:27

because that was a very important part

34:29

of our strategy. And, you know, we

34:31

gave, you know, a lot of recognition,

34:33

the people who did it. And we

34:35

also gave people recognition for adopting

34:38

the ideas and paid people more

34:40

because as you know, you know,

34:42

wiping out that pride of authorship.

34:44

you know, is important if you

34:46

want to get people to really

34:48

embrace the best practices. You know,

34:50

it's a hard, how do you,

34:52

how do you go after that

34:54

wiping out not invented here? It's

34:57

extremely difficult. It's extremely difficult and

34:59

particularly in place that are very

35:01

successful. And it is one of the

35:03

things you have to constantly push your

35:05

people. Are you sure it's not easier to?

35:07

by this off-the-shelf, do we really need

35:09

to invent this, do we really

35:11

need to build this ourselves? And

35:13

that is some really game people

35:16

to do analysis and understand that the

35:18

mission is to accomplish, make it easier

35:20

for everyone to experience the world, not

35:22

to create the best email system. There

35:24

are lots of email systems, we don't

35:26

need to make our own guys. It's

35:28

something that is really tough to get

35:31

the right balance, but you know, I

35:33

think if you take away ownership... of

35:35

any division or any company and they

35:37

feel like they don't have in their

35:39

power the ability to get something done.

35:41

You know, you pay for it. You

35:43

know, so I was more

35:46

into decentralization than centralization.

35:48

No, I totally agree. And it

35:50

also, it's that interesting mix because

35:52

you believe you'll achieve certain types

35:55

of efficiencies. You believe that there

35:57

are synergies. On the other hand,

35:59

there... There's a very hard to

36:01

measure cause. Things go slower. There's more

36:04

bureaucracy. It doesn't show up in the

36:06

P&L easily because you don't know that

36:08

the reason you're not hitting your numbers

36:11

is because, you know, you're getting a

36:13

lot of blockage along the way. And

36:15

that's why projects aren't happening when they

36:18

should happen by. So it's definitely a

36:20

balance you have to work on. We'll

36:22

be back with the rest of my

36:25

conversation with Ben Fogle in just a

36:27

moment. Well International Women's Day is this

36:29

week and it's the perfect occasion to

36:31

highlight Lisa Lutoff Perlow the former CEO

36:34

of celebrity cruise lines. She's broken a

36:36

lot of barriers in her career but

36:38

for her it wasn't just a feather

36:41

in her cap it was her chance

36:43

to pave the way for others to

36:45

succeed too. You know, a lot of

36:48

people asked me, how does it feel

36:50

to have achieved what you achieved in

36:52

accomplishing, you know, being the CEO of

36:55

one of the brands? And I'd be

36:57

lying if I didn't say that it

36:59

was great. It was a major accomplishment

37:02

and it was something I never dreamed

37:04

that would happen for me, but I

37:06

think the real thing for me isn't

37:09

so much. about me because sure I

37:11

made it, it's wonderful, it's great, I

37:13

worked really hard, I've earned everything I

37:16

got, but the biggest thing for me

37:18

was bringing others along with me in

37:20

an industry that was woefully short of

37:22

women and there was, you know, the

37:25

gender imbalance was staggering. At that time,

37:27

3% of the women on our bridges

37:29

were women and by the time I

37:32

stepped down from celebrity in April of

37:34

2023, 33% of the crew members. on

37:36

our bridges were women and I did

37:39

that with the help of men that

37:41

I worked with who were equally passionate

37:43

about more gender equality on our bridges

37:46

and I give them a tremendous amount

37:48

of credit for helping get us there.

37:50

Go back and listen to my entire

37:53

conversation with Lisa. for you, you come

37:55

up in finance, you have a legal

37:57

background, and then you run this, this,

38:00

this company has, you know, millions and

38:02

millions of customers, okay, millions and millions

38:04

of transactions. Did you have to work

38:07

hard to develop your marketing skills, your

38:09

customer skills, or was that something that

38:11

came natural to you? Or, or how

38:13

do you think about the customer side

38:16

of the equation in your job? So

38:18

I know very little about marketing, and

38:20

I am very, very, very. comfortable, not

38:23

feeling that I have any sort of

38:25

expertise at all. And that's why we

38:27

have chief marketing officers. And that's what

38:30

they're supposed to do. And so, you

38:32

know, for many years, we've been an

38:34

ad in the Super Bowl for our

38:37

booking.com company. And we always, you know,

38:39

our, should we spend this kind of

38:41

money for this? Is there really a

38:44

return or not? And they do all

38:46

the. testing that one should do on

38:48

the actual content, you know, and the

38:51

creatives is good. And so I just

38:53

recently got the most recent one that

38:55

is being looked at for the upcoming

38:58

game and all that. And they say,

39:00

what do you think? And they always

39:02

said that. And I always say, it

39:04

doesn't matter what I think. It's irrelevant.

39:07

It's what have you come up with?

39:09

And is this worth the money to

39:11

spend on it? Or should we sell

39:14

the spot or not? It's nice to

39:16

you to ask me, but what the

39:18

heck do I know? And you know,

39:21

you have your numbers, you have your

39:23

opinion. So you're supposed to do. You

39:25

tell me. You know, how many CEOs

39:28

have that kind of comfort? From your

39:30

perspective, not many, not many, not many

39:32

are very good at saying, I don't

39:35

know. Maybe they know more about marketing

39:37

than me. Maybe, but I like, I

39:39

like the fact that you know what

39:42

you know, and you know what you

39:44

know, and you know what you don't

39:46

know, no. Now, you don't know, now.

39:49

Now, Everybody else bring data. Say more.

39:51

You know, it's not, I didn't invent

39:53

that. It's been around for a very

39:55

long time, but I do believe. And

39:58

how do you drive that in your

40:00

company? It's in the DNA from long

40:02

before I got to any level of

40:05

having any authority of any kind. So

40:07

that is something that's been there forever.

40:09

You know, you can go too far

40:12

that way though. And here's what I've

40:14

talked about. We had a meeting last

40:16

year with a very large number of

40:19

our data scientists, our mathematicians, our PhD

40:21

statistician. And we know, these people are

40:23

brilliant, brilliant people. And they believe data

40:26

is everything, everything. And they asked me

40:28

to speak in the opening of this

40:30

thing. I say to them, I say,

40:33

listen, we all agree how important data

40:35

is. And that has gotten us where

40:37

we are because of our devotion to

40:40

the facts and not opinions and all

40:42

that. But everybody, what we have to

40:44

understand is it's real easy to be

40:46

certain that your numbers are telling you

40:49

something. It's also real easy to make

40:51

mistakes. Your mind is wrong. The way

40:53

you set up your experiment was wrong.

40:56

And you're absolutely confident and you do

40:58

that. And I said, everybody, let's look

41:00

back on our history. We in the

41:03

past have believed certain things absolutely is

41:05

the truth. And then we said, oh,

41:07

wait, this isn't right. And we shouldn't

41:10

be doing that because the data actually

41:12

says this, because we had made a

41:14

mistake or somebody had made a work,

41:17

the world changed. And what was true

41:19

in the previous is no longer proof.

41:21

And I gave you a whole bunch

41:24

of examples. peer-reviewed journals and there's no

41:26

you can't replicate the experiment and then

41:28

they have to pull what they had

41:31

already peer-reviewed approved and there you see

41:33

that over over you see that coming

41:35

up over and over again so what

41:37

I say is like look we do

41:40

believe that that is one thing but

41:42

be very careful that it may not

41:44

be right always and always think does

41:47

it make sense common sense and if

41:49

something is telling you that doesn't fit

41:51

your common sense? Well the data could

41:54

be absolutely right in telling you that

41:56

and you your perceptions, your emotional biases,

41:58

your human... Mistakes are, okay, and go

42:01

with that. The other thing is, maybe

42:03

you want to check that again, because

42:05

maybe there was a mistake made in

42:08

that. And that's really important. But we

42:10

are fortunate, and I think absolutely the

42:12

reason for us, part of our, one

42:15

of the, there may reason for our

42:17

success, but one, was really understand the

42:19

concept of AB testing, oh, 20-something years

42:22

ago. You mentioned that the world does

42:24

change and you know traffic travel is

42:26

this magical thing that gives people hope.

42:28

It gives them something to look forward

42:31

to. What do you see changing in

42:33

the world of travel that gets you

42:35

excited about the future? Oh my God.

42:38

It's so exciting in terms of how

42:40

much easier it will be in the

42:42

future. It's already so much easier. Think

42:45

about 25 years ago. You would get

42:47

a ticket. that had this red carbon

42:49

thing on the back, you know, would

42:52

go on your hand if you had

42:54

to carry a paper ticket around? Do

42:56

you remember that? Yeah. And if you

42:59

wanted to contact somebody, well, yeah, there

43:01

was a email 25 years ago, but

43:03

a lot of stuff was still done

43:06

by a thing called facts, which is

43:08

short for fact simile, which I bet

43:10

half of your listeners have no idea

43:13

what we're talking about here. I agree

43:15

with you. Think of it. Think of

43:17

it now. Now we have a booking.com

43:20

we have our AI trip planner Where

43:22

you can just type in I want

43:24

to take a trip to Florida and

43:26

Have a communication going back and forward

43:29

to help create the itinerary or a

43:31

price line has their AI product called

43:33

penny Or if you have an issue

43:36

with your reservation at a restaurant and

43:38

we've hooked up because you don't all

43:40

them set up yet with this and

43:43

you're talking to somebody to fix the

43:45

reservation for that restaurant. It's actually being

43:47

done by AI is fixing it. AI

43:50

is doing that. And there's so many

43:52

things that's so much better. So great,

43:54

we've seen all this progress. But we

43:57

also know that track. is still incredibly

43:59

frustrating. Things go wrong, weather, mechanical issues,

44:01

over bookings. I picked the wrong thing.

44:04

I didn't want that. And with all

44:06

the developments that we're getting in technology,

44:08

all the new generative AI, all the

44:11

machine learning things that we've been doing

44:13

that for, we've been doing machine learning

44:15

stuff for more than a dozen years,

44:17

so it really is helping our business.

44:20

But so many of these coming forward

44:22

and will enable. Travelers to have a

44:24

much easier better time. Essentially, you are

44:27

going to be going around with the

44:29

most sophisticated, the most knowledgeable, incredibly great

44:31

travel advisor living in your pocket because

44:34

in your phone and it will be

44:36

giving you advice. It will give you

44:38

a simple example. You're going to Amsterdam.

44:41

Nice thing. And we've suggested that you

44:43

take a boat ride. Nice canal trip.

44:45

It's great. And we also, there's a

44:48

great museum, the rice museum, which go

44:50

there too. And we got all set

44:52

up for you. It's all easy to

44:55

be done. You're there. We know, though,

44:57

the weather on Thursday, when you're supposed

44:59

to take this boat ride, it's going

45:02

to probably rain. And we know you're

45:04

currently scheduled for Wednesday with the museum

45:06

when it's sunny. And this is Tuesday.

45:08

And we tell you, and I think

45:11

it's a good idea. We'd like to

45:13

change this for you. put you on

45:15

the boat on the sunny day Wednesday,

45:18

go to the museum on the rainy

45:20

Thursday and we're doing that all automatically

45:22

through AI. And we're telling you this,

45:25

it's coming to you on the phones,

45:27

we put it, and it's going back

45:29

and forth and the rest, everything, everything.

45:32

Just imagine, you're walking around with the

45:34

most expensive travel agent in the world

45:36

who knows everything, everything, because all the

45:39

database and knows you better than anything

45:41

because you have been buying across a

45:43

we know you. We know what you

45:46

like and you don't have to say

45:48

I really want the I'll see all

45:50

the time we know that We don't

45:53

try and put you into the seat

45:55

with the window on the plane. So

45:57

many things. So we will save so

45:59

much of the friction. And it goes

46:02

all the way from you. First start

46:04

thinking about travel to all the way

46:06

through it to the time you're back

46:09

home safe, happy about the great, great

46:11

vacation you took. You know, Glenn, you

46:13

guys have been doing machine learning for

46:16

well over a decade. You're all over

46:18

AI. You know, as a leader. You

46:20

know, how did you identify the importance

46:23

of that? And what have you done

46:25

with yourself and your team to get

46:27

this capability in AI where, you know,

46:30

everybody else seems to be struggling with

46:32

it? Everybody is struggling too, by the

46:34

way we're doing all these things, when

46:37

I continue to tell the team, we've

46:39

got to go faster. You don't know

46:41

what's going to come out tomorrow. Who

46:44

knows what somebody is inventing in some

46:46

garage somewhere that is going to come

46:48

back? proof be the new thing. I

46:50

mean, just look at the, you know,

46:53

you remember, and again, many of your

46:55

people may not, oh, we're listening, well,

46:57

remember Al Gore, talking about the information

47:00

highway, remember that? The information highway, well,

47:02

the information highway is filled with a

47:04

wreckage of companies that did not see

47:07

in the future how much things were

47:09

going to change. And those are, my

47:11

God, remember, Blackberry, where are the new

47:14

today. Yeah. Xerox. Xerox invented so much

47:16

of what we do today. The mouse.

47:18

I mean, so many things. Mike, the

47:21

list is endless of people who weren't

47:23

thinking, what is the next disruptive thing?

47:25

How can we can get ahead of

47:28

that and try and do that? And

47:30

it's hard. And you know, we both,

47:32

I'm sure we, I did, I'm sure

47:35

you read the innovator's dilemma. Christianism's book,

47:37

very famous book. And that is a

47:39

problem because when you have a successful

47:41

business. and trying to disrupt it, it's

47:44

very difficult because you're making money, you're

47:46

investors like this, and you have to

47:48

have a back. So it's not easy

47:51

to motivate people to go. We've got

47:53

to go for the next new thing

47:55

But that's going to be risky and

47:58

it's going to cost money So you

48:00

have to create the right balance and

48:02

we we've been fortunate that we have

48:05

people who really do get and that's

48:07

really good Yeah, absolutely in the brands

48:09

and companies you mentioned it's a graveyard

48:12

those people that try to protect what

48:14

they had versus seeing where the world

48:16

was really going one of my favorites

48:19

is Blockbuster because of your call Oh

48:21

yeah, they had Netflix. They knew it.

48:23

They knew where it was going. And

48:26

they still couldn't do it because the

48:28

pressure, I know how much you know

48:30

the story. I know the whole story.

48:32

Yeah, absolutely. They had it, but they.

48:35

Couldn't make that change. They couldn't do

48:37

it hanging on hanging on I'll tell

48:39

you Glenn this has been so much

48:42

fun And I want to have some

48:44

more with what I call my lightning

48:46

round of questions. Are you ready for

48:49

this? Okay. I hope you don't mind

48:51

if I go slowly The free words

48:53

of best describe you smaller than average

48:56

of stature If you could be one

48:58

person for a day beside yourself, who

49:00

would it be? There's nobody I like

49:03

being me. Your biggest pet peeve. Okay,

49:05

so this is, and I don't understand

49:07

why my wife is, and I have

49:10

a disagreement about this, but I grew

49:12

up, you took anything you plate, glass,

49:14

whatever, you put it in the dishwasher,

49:17

or you washed it in the same,

49:19

and you put it in the drawing

49:21

rack. That's how I grew up. My

49:23

wife grew up where you put the

49:26

plates and everything into the sink and

49:28

you wait Until it gets so filled

49:30

and then you rinse them and put

49:33

them into the dishwasher there. I Don't

49:35

understand why I mean who likes looking

49:37

at a sink full of plates and

49:40

dishes? I don't get it. I have

49:42

to tell you I'm kind of just

49:44

blown away by this because with your

49:47

stock going up 800 times. I'm surprised

49:49

you've known the dishwasher is. I assure

49:51

you my friend, I sure you, I

49:54

know. And by the way, here's the

49:56

other one in the same areas. My

49:58

wife believes that you have to rinse

50:01

the plates before you put in the

50:03

dishwasher. And I'm like, sweetheart, it's not

50:05

a dish warmer or dish dryer. It

50:08

is a dishwasher. Why don't have to

50:10

wash it before we put it in?

50:12

But whatever. Okay. Disagreements. I love it.

50:14

Who would play you in a movie?

50:17

Who would make a movie that I'd

50:19

be in, please? What's the biggest lesson

50:21

you've learned from traveling? What a wonderful

50:24

world it really is. It really is.

50:26

And sometimes people don't recognize. We only

50:28

have one of them. There's only one

50:31

place, Earth. And you go around the

50:33

world. It's so wonderful. I just hope

50:35

that is, you know, for many, many,

50:38

many, many, many, many, many, many, many,

50:40

many, many generations beyond. It's so wonderful.

50:42

You have two tickets to any destination

50:45

in the world. Where are you going

50:47

and who are you taking with you?

50:49

I'm going home because I'm somewhere else

50:52

and I'm bringing my wife because she's

50:54

with me too. I traveled last year.

50:56

I could have to keep records. I

50:59

did not sleep in my home bed

51:01

more than half. of last year. So

51:03

everybody says, where do you want to

51:05

go? I say, most likely I want

51:08

to go home. What's something you wish

51:10

more people knew about lawyers? They are

51:12

trying to make the world better. They

51:15

are doing their job in the way

51:17

they believe is the right way to

51:19

do things to help improve our society.

51:22

What's the one thing you do just

51:24

for you, Glenn? I worked out every

51:26

day. Your most prized possession. stock into

51:29

things. I could lose every physical thing.

51:31

You know, maybe a little bum, but

51:33

it wouldn't be a big deal. If

51:36

I turned on the radio in your

51:38

car, what would I... here. A podcast,

51:40

possibly yours. What's something about you few

51:43

people would know? Well, then I ran

51:45

with the Bulls and Pampona, not once,

51:47

but twice. That does not surprise me.

51:50

I'm just getting to know you, but

51:52

I believe you, and I'm surprised it's

51:54

only twice. You know, that's the end

51:56

of the lightening around Glenn. I just

51:59

got a few more questions. I'll let

52:01

you go here. You know, I'm looking

52:03

at you here on video, and the

52:06

people are watching us on YouTube. You're

52:08

seeing as well. You're, you're, you're, you're,

52:10

you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're,

52:13

you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're,

52:15

you're, you're, You're in great shape, you

52:17

know, and you mentioned you work out

52:20

every day. Walk me through that part

52:22

of your life and how you prioritize

52:24

health with all the demands that you

52:27

have. So wake up in the morning,

52:29

first thing I do is go down

52:31

to my basement and do some exercise.

52:34

In fact, even before I get downstairs,

52:36

I was just talking with our CEO

52:38

of a goa, he's asking about it

52:41

here. I say, okay. So I get

52:43

quality, I have a carrying, right. I

52:45

go downstairs from my bedroom kitchen. you

52:47

know, one set down, I get there,

52:50

going to do the curag, put the

52:52

pot in, and I'll do my push-ups

52:54

right there. And if you put it

52:57

for about the 12 ounce or the

52:59

10 ounce on the curag, that's about

53:01

the right time, do your push-ups. And

53:04

then I get another one because I

53:06

have like, you know, that 18 hours

53:08

or 20 ounce mug that we all

53:11

walk around with nowadays. So you put

53:13

the second thing in and then do

53:15

some sort of that thing. So in

53:18

the time to get your coffee ready,

53:20

instead of just sitting there, standing there,

53:22

looking at the machine, you can get

53:25

something done. One. Two. You're brushing your

53:27

teeth, right? If you brush your teeth,

53:29

the way you're supposed. You're supposed to

53:32

do it two minutes, right? If you

53:34

brush your teeth the way you're supposed.

53:36

You're supposed to do it two minutes

53:38

each time, right? You're supposed to do

53:41

it two minutes while you're brushing your

53:43

teeth, and you're just looking at all

53:45

here like this. And you can do

53:48

this. Two minutes in the morning, two

53:50

minutes in the evening, four minutes a

53:52

day, seven days a week, let's round

53:55

up, let's call it half an hour

53:57

a week. Half an hour a week.

54:00

doing exercise that would have been wasted.

54:02

So that's ways you can get yourself

54:04

going. And then there are other ways

54:07

to motivate yourself. But it is really,

54:09

I believe, this absolutely that life is,

54:11

all of life is probabilities, right? There

54:13

is no guarantee working out. It's actually,

54:16

you can still get hit by the

54:18

bus and it's just as dead. It's

54:20

hit by the bus, whether you worked

54:22

out or you didn't work out. You're

54:25

still going to be dead. And people,

54:27

unfortunately, terrible. You increase the possibility that

54:29

you will live longer and have a

54:31

health in your life by exercising. So,

54:34

why not? It's fun, it's enjoyable, and

54:36

you have the possibility of living longer

54:38

hopefully. Why not do it? It sounds

54:40

to me like you read that book,

54:43

Tiny Habits. Have you read that book?

54:45

Not read that book. No. It's all

54:47

about just doing a few little things

54:49

like when you're doing the push-ups when

54:52

the curbs machines. You know, you could

54:54

have written a book. I thought, you'd

54:56

read it. Now you could write the

54:58

damn thing. Well, I guess I won't

55:01

have to read it. Hey, Glenn, when

55:03

you look forward, you know, what do

55:05

you see as your unfinished business? My

55:07

unfinished business is doing more nice things

55:10

for my wife. You know, you know,

55:12

she, we met, we met. when I

55:14

was unemployed after I even fired. Which

55:16

is, you know, actually, everyone finds that

55:19

one interesting too. She was a lawyer

55:21

at the time, and we were set

55:23

up by friends, mutual friends, set us

55:25

up. And it's interesting that, you know,

55:28

she went out with me, and I

55:30

kept saying brunch dates because, you know,

55:32

that's why I'm blooded. I didn't have

55:34

all money. And the, the interesting thing

55:37

is that she kind of like the

55:39

fact that... because I play, I pick

55:41

up her dry cleaning, I do lots

55:43

of good things, and she didn't see

55:46

me as somebody who would, you know,

55:48

half the year, I'd be away from

55:50

home and stuff. So I kind of

55:52

owe her. Well, you guys, you guys

55:54

have been great partners for sure, and

55:57

it's a great attitude to have. And

55:59

last question, what's one piece of advice

56:01

you'd give to anyone who wants to

56:03

be a leader? You only want one,

56:06

but there's more than one. I mean,

56:08

the first thing is, do you really

56:10

want to be a leader and understand

56:12

why do you want to be a

56:15

leader? So make sure you understand that,

56:17

really understand why do you want to

56:19

be a leader? What is driving this

56:21

and understand that well, because it's very

56:24

easy to think you want to be

56:26

a leader for the wrong reasons. Let

56:28

me ask you before you go to

56:30

two. Why did you want to be

56:33

a leader? I never won. I never

56:35

made a big role to be a

56:37

leader. We had our CEO was forced

56:39

to be let go. Our chairman took

56:42

over the temporary role as CEO while

56:44

they did a search. I did not

56:46

put my hat in the ring initially.

56:48

Heads of our brands kept saying, Glenn,

56:51

why don't you apply in stuff? Why

56:53

don't you try and do it and

56:55

stuff? And I'm like, I don't know.

57:00

I said, our chairman, I said, well,

57:02

I sure hope we can find somebody

57:04

better than me. And, well, why do

57:06

you want to be a leader now,

57:08

then? Do you want to be a

57:10

leader now? Here's that, here's it. So

57:13

I took, so then I said, okay,

57:15

I'll do it, okay. Now the reason

57:17

why, and the reason I want to

57:19

do is because I believed that I

57:21

could help make our organization better than

57:23

it was. Now, no doubt maybe somebody

57:26

could do it even better than I

57:28

could do it. I'm sure they're probably

57:30

a lot, but nobody else is applying

57:32

for it. So I believe at the

57:34

time that I would help out by

57:36

making our organization better, by making our

57:39

organization better, we would make it better

57:41

for our customers. And then we would

57:43

do something good. And I believe we

57:45

have done that. We have grown significantly.

57:47

It'll be, let's see now. Actually, we

57:49

just passed it actually. So I've been

57:52

CEO. I've entered my ninth year as

57:54

CEO of this company. And I've been

57:56

here, you know, 20. So I finished

57:58

eight out of 25, you know, let's

58:00

call, you know, but the heck a

58:02

third round off here, right? I've been

58:05

CEO. We have gone through over my

58:07

time to CEO a lot of changes,

58:09

a lot of difficulties, but a lot

58:11

of great things. COVID was horrific, horrific

58:13

thing we went through. But we've changed

58:15

the business a lot too. When I

58:18

first became CEO, our biggest company, booking.com,

58:20

all we did was, as I mentioned,

58:22

this agency model, distributing hotels. Now we

58:24

do many different travel verticals, flights. We

58:26

merged in our car rental business. We

58:28

do attractions, insurance. We are doing many

58:31

different things that we never did before

58:33

and that is able to provide people

58:35

with a better experience. And we have

58:37

made great progress in creating this thing

58:39

we call the connected trip, which is

58:41

run top, bringing it all together in

58:44

addition because we used to be just

58:46

this agency. We never took the money,

58:48

we didn't deal it. Now we have

58:50

a whole payments program that's very big

58:52

and very important. So we have made

58:54

it much easier for our customers, to

58:57

customers as I mentioned, our travelers and

58:59

our partner suppliers. And we've made it

59:01

better for both of them. So I

59:03

feel that we got a lot more

59:05

to do, of course, to make things

59:08

better, but we're on our path. And

59:10

now with Gen AI. You know, I

59:12

tell the organization as it is exciting

59:14

has been and what we all together

59:16

be able to create over the last

59:18

quarter of a century. We're just beginning.

59:21

We are just beginning with this technology.

59:23

It's going to be so much better.

59:25

And that's, it's kind of fun to

59:27

help do this. Yeah, so the first

59:29

thing was know why you want to

59:31

be a leader and then you were

59:34

going to give me a second. Yeah,

59:36

well the second thing is, okay, neither.

59:38

So one thing is look at other

59:40

people who are leaders, learn, read. Listen,

59:42

see what part you want to take

59:44

from them to, I want to be

59:47

like that kind of a leader. I

59:49

want to do so, I want to

59:51

be able to weigh that person. How

59:53

do we learn? We learn from... others,

59:55

we learn reading, and that's the thing

59:57

you've got to learn. And I'll tell

1:00:00

you, it's unfortunate that, well, you have

1:00:02

your, you've been doing what you've been

1:00:04

doing to help people prepare to be

1:00:06

a leader. But you know, so I

1:00:08

went to the Wharton School, undergraduate, Penn,

1:00:10

and I went to Harvard Law School.

1:00:13

No, there never was a course in

1:00:15

how to be a leader, nothing, not

1:00:17

at all, Harrow. Yeah, Wharton, we had

1:00:19

a thing called management courses, right. But

1:00:21

they never really talked about what it

1:00:23

means, what is leadership, what does that

1:00:26

to be? And I think that we

1:00:28

can all benefit a lot if we

1:00:30

all had some actual practical lessons in

1:00:32

leadership as part of our leadership group

1:00:34

at our company, we are developing those

1:00:36

now. And it's a shame though, you

1:00:39

don't get that until you're already sort

1:00:41

of like given the job of being

1:00:43

a leader, you know? You know, one

1:00:45

of the things that I've been very

1:00:47

impressed by you is you're very self-affacing.

1:00:49

You don't seem to take yourself too

1:00:52

seriously. You don't claim to be the

1:00:54

smartest person in the room. You know,

1:00:56

is that sort of a superpower of

1:00:58

yours as a leader? You think you

1:01:00

think that gets people to get behind

1:01:02

you more? You know, how do you

1:01:05

think about that? I mean, do you

1:01:07

do it? It comes naturally to you

1:01:09

or is something that you... Try to

1:01:11

make happen or you know do you

1:01:13

hear it coming out of your mouth

1:01:15

when it when it pops out or

1:01:18

don't tell me about it one of

1:01:20

the things that I've heard a lot

1:01:22

about this idea of this Buddhist Shoshin

1:01:24

beginners mind and not going with your

1:01:26

pre-thought-up reason it starts to for me

1:01:28

it's pretty easy because I don't have

1:01:31

them like it's not marketing on the

1:01:33

way about it. I don't know. It's

1:01:35

recognizing it's so It's so easy if

1:01:37

you look at it that by depending

1:01:39

on other people's expertise we will achieve.

1:01:41

better things than just because you have

1:01:44

a status level that therefore you would

1:01:46

know. Just because you have a title

1:01:48

does not give you instant knowledge and

1:01:50

information at all. You just got to

1:01:52

be willing to admit you don't know

1:01:54

anything and ask and then try and

1:01:57

do it and ask smart questions and

1:01:59

then try, does this, why are we

1:02:01

doing this, explain again to me, how

1:02:03

is this going to help, why is

1:02:05

this, but what about that, and bring

1:02:08

people who have different opinions to debate

1:02:10

it together? And that helps us form

1:02:12

as a collective better decision making. So

1:02:14

I don't, I don't think it's actually

1:02:16

that hard actually. I think it's actually

1:02:18

the way, you know, obviously sometimes you

1:02:21

have to make the decision even though

1:02:23

you don't have enough information and you're

1:02:25

not as expertise as people who gave

1:02:27

you that, but they gave you different

1:02:29

information. And then you have to make

1:02:31

a decision and that's judgment and hopefully

1:02:34

you've learned a little bit over time.

1:02:36

Look at Kennedy during the Cuban missile.

1:02:38

crisis and how he made decisions there.

1:02:40

He was not an expert in nuclear

1:02:42

missile stuff and he wasn't, you know,

1:02:44

he'd run a PT boat in World

1:02:47

War II, you know, it wasn't, you

1:02:49

know, it wasn't like an animal. And

1:02:51

he had to make this incredible decision

1:02:53

and he depended listening to other people.

1:02:55

A lot of people gave a lot

1:02:57

of different opinions. There are some people

1:03:00

saying we should nuke it today. And

1:03:02

there are, yeah, all sorts of things.

1:03:04

Any. He had to make that decision

1:03:06

even though he had imperfect information and

1:03:08

he had different experts telling him different

1:03:10

stuff. And that ends up being the

1:03:13

leader's, you know, part of the responsibility

1:03:15

though is making that ultimate decision when

1:03:17

there is different opinions and such. You

1:03:19

know, I have the opportunity to talk

1:03:21

to a lot of leaders. I do

1:03:23

it, you know, every week, you know.

1:03:26

And one of the things that always

1:03:28

impresses be is when I'm around someone

1:03:30

who has so much incredible energy. and

1:03:32

passion for what they do. And I

1:03:34

don't know how anybody could work at

1:03:36

booking holdings and have you as a

1:03:39

CEO and not say. Hey, you know

1:03:41

what? I may not agree with that

1:03:43

guy all the time, but there's nobody

1:03:45

that's putting his heart into it more

1:03:47

than him, and there's nobody that's giving

1:03:49

his all more than he is, and,

1:03:52

you know, he believes in me. And

1:03:54

I think those are great characteristics you've

1:03:56

displayed in this conversation, and I want

1:03:58

to thank you for taking the time

1:04:00

to have it. Well, I want to

1:04:02

thank you, and I want to say

1:04:05

that there are 25,000 of us now.

1:04:07

I think they all have pretty much

1:04:09

the same type of enthusiasm. Glenn has

1:04:11

led one of the biggest travel companies

1:04:13

in the world through massive growth and

1:04:15

major challenges. But you know what? This

1:04:18

is a guy who never pretends to

1:04:20

have all the answers. As he puts

1:04:22

it, just because you have a title

1:04:24

does not give you instant knowledge. Too

1:04:26

many leaders feel pressure to have an

1:04:28

opinion on everything. But the truth is,

1:04:31

the most effective leaders surround themselves with

1:04:33

smart people, ask smart questions, and then

1:04:35

listen. And that kind of humility is

1:04:37

powerful. It's how you create a culture

1:04:39

where people feel empowered and the best

1:04:41

ideas win. Not just the loudest voices

1:04:44

in the room. Not just the people

1:04:46

who have the most power. Not just

1:04:48

the people who have the big title.

1:04:50

This week, when you're faced with a

1:04:52

decision outside your expertise, I want you

1:04:54

to pause. Instead of offering your own

1:04:57

opinion or pretending like you have the

1:04:59

answer when you really don't know it

1:05:01

for sure, I want you to ask

1:05:03

a question. Lean on the experts around

1:05:05

you. You might be surprised at what

1:05:08

you learn and how much stronger your

1:05:10

team becomes because of it. So do

1:05:12

you want to know how leaders lead?

1:05:14

What we learned today is that great

1:05:16

leaders know what they don't know. Coming

1:05:18

up next on how leaders lead, I'm

1:05:21

sitting down with Hayes Barnard. the founder

1:05:23

chairman and CEO of Goodley, a finance

1:05:25

company that provides loans for sustainability. home

1:05:27

upgrades. I want to to

1:05:29

connect the brightest, most

1:05:31

driven, most talented people,

1:05:34

people that are

1:05:36

on a mission to

1:05:38

do good meaningful scale,

1:05:40

do and to do

1:05:42

that, a you better

1:05:44

have a big

1:05:47

enough mission for them

1:05:49

to wrap their

1:05:51

hearts around. So be sure you

1:05:53

sure you subscribe

1:05:55

on or or wherever

1:05:57

you get your podcast

1:06:00

you don't miss miss it.

1:06:02

Thanks again for

1:06:04

tuning in to another

1:06:06

episode of of how

1:06:08

where Lead Thursday you

1:06:10

get to listen to

1:06:13

I interview some of

1:06:15

the very best

1:06:17

leaders in the world.

1:06:19

I make it

1:06:21

a point to give

1:06:23

you something simple

1:06:26

on each episode that

1:06:28

you can apply

1:06:30

to your business that

1:06:32

that you will become

1:06:34

the best leader so

1:06:36

can be. become the best

1:06:39

leader you can be.