0:00

see leaders who want to take a risk, but keep

0:02

it quiet. I don't want anyone to see, and

0:04

if I'm successful, I'll tell you about it the

0:06

end of the day. But then it's hard

0:08

to marshal resources and excitement in an organization

0:10

if you don't declare yourself. The

0:20

fastest way to get stuck in your career? Keep

0:23

your boldest ideas to yourself. Welcome

0:26

to How Leaders Lead. I'm David Novak,

0:28

and every week... I have conversations with the

0:30

very best leaders in the world to

0:32

help you become the best leader you can be. My

0:35

guest today is Dave McKay, President and

0:37

CEO of the Royal Bank of Canada. He

0:40

spent more than three decades at RBC, rising

0:43

through the ranks with a clear

0:45

sense of values and vision. And

0:47

what I really admire about Dave

0:49

is how he puts those visionary

0:51

goals out into the open. Look,

0:54

it's scary to go public

0:56

with your big goals. Believe me,

0:58

I know. Because in the back of

1:00

your mind, there's that little voice

1:02

saying, yikes, if I fail, I'm going

1:04

to fail in front of everybody. But

1:07

that's why you've got to hear from day

1:10

to day. Because you'll see, going

1:12

public with your big goals is

1:14

how you build momentum. It's

1:16

how you attract performers. And

1:18

it's how you turn big

1:20

ideas into real, measurable progress. One

1:23

thing I know for sure, when you

1:25

go public with something, you can't

1:27

go back. because it means

1:29

you're all in to make that

1:31

happen. And if all that's not

1:33

enough for you, you'll also hear

1:35

how RBC leaned into Taylor Swift

1:37

fandom to drive results. Trust me,

1:39

Swifties and strategy fans alike

1:42

are going to love this one. So

1:44

here's my conversation with my good friend

1:46

and soon to be yours, Dave McKay. Dave,

1:54

you got your first job

1:56

at RBC in 1983, which

1:58

means you've worked at RBC longer

2:00

than Taylor Swift has

2:02

been alive. When you hear

2:04

that out loud, what goes

2:07

through your head? Love

2:09

Taylor Swift. I don't know if

2:11

you know, we were her

2:13

sponsor for the portion of the

2:15

Ares Tour in Canada. And

2:17

we had a great partnership with her

2:19

in the tour. And it was a

2:21

massive acquisition opportunity for us to bring

2:23

new clients into the organization. So for

2:25

many reasons, whether it's music or business

2:27

results, love Taylor Swift. Yeah,

2:29

for me, it's been a labor

2:32

of love. mean, I love this company.

2:34

I love the people I come

2:36

to work with every day. So it's

2:38

been a wonderful journey of almost

2:40

40 years in total. And just love

2:42

every minute of it. Mostly every

2:44

minute of it. I know how that

2:46

goes, but your CEO, you can't

2:48

love every minute, you know, because stuff

2:51

does happen, you know. But I

2:53

love getting into the mind of leaders

2:55

to learn how you really make

2:57

a decision. You know, walk me through

2:59

the decision that you made to

3:01

partner with Taylor Swift and sponsor the

3:03

Ares Tour in Canada. Yeah, music

3:05

in general has been a big part

3:07

of our overall sponsorship portfolio. So

3:09

we sponsor golf, particularly in the United

3:12

States. We sponsor the Olympics. And

3:14

we sponsor music. We're a partner

3:17

of Live Nation. And even though

3:19

the Airstore wasn't a Live Nation

3:21

concert, we know the music industry

3:23

very well through our entertainment franchise

3:25

at City National. So in the

3:27

confluence of being in music and

3:29

supporting a lot of the musicians

3:32

on the banking side through City

3:34

National, we knew Taylor's team. And

3:36

it was really Mary, my CMO.

3:39

who came up with the idea to

3:41

say, how cool would it be

3:43

if we sponsored Taylor Swift? I got

3:45

to give credit to Mary. Mary

3:47

was a brilliant idea and it worked

3:49

flawlessly for us. You know, I

3:51

read though that... move that you and

3:53

Mary made in terms of sponsoring

3:55

the Aeros tour led to incredible results.

3:57

You know, when you place a

3:59

bet like that, because this was not

4:01

cheap, you know, how do you

4:03

balance the risk versus the reward? It's

4:05

a great question. You've got to

4:07

go through, because some of it are

4:09

soft benefits, some of them are

4:11

hard benefits. In this case, a

4:13

lot of times sponsorship is a soft

4:15

benefit. You can't directly link it to a

4:17

business outcome because you could have various

4:19

offers in the marketplace, other initiatives trying to

4:21

draw clients in. So how do you

4:23

pinpoint it to that specific promotion? And golf's

4:25

a little bit like that. Olympics is

4:27

certainly like that. But in this case, because

4:29

we had a ticket inventory to give

4:31

away, we could link it to a direct

4:33

business outcome. So we had to make

4:35

some assumptions up front to say, with these

4:37

type of opportunities, how many people would

4:39

apply for a new credit card? Would it

4:41

really... I'm sure her

4:44

brand was riding really high when

4:46

we did the deal and still

4:48

is riding really high. I don't

4:50

think it was a big stretch,

4:52

honestly, to say, will Taylor sell?

4:54

She absolutely sells. And I have

4:56

to say, I've never seen an

4:58

event draw people in from around

5:00

the world. We had customers from

5:02

around the world come into the

5:05

cities where she was performing. But

5:07

the atmosphere of positivity and unification

5:09

in a world. That's being

5:11

divided. And so many

5:13

levels was just really special thing

5:15

to see. So it was brand

5:17

aligned, which we always have to

5:20

do. There are some bands we

5:22

wouldn't align with, but certainly very

5:24

much brand aligned, outcome aligned. And

5:26

we could see, you know, a

5:29

direct impact to our business, as you

5:31

referenced, exceeded our expectations for sure. So

5:33

those are the bets you make. It's

5:35

a probability. If you look at the

5:37

risks, you say, this is a good

5:39

play. Let's do it. Let's make it

5:42

happen. You know, Dave,

5:44

you've been the CEO of

5:46

RBC since 2014. Give

5:48

us a snapshot of the

5:50

company today and how it compares

5:52

to when you first took

5:55

the reins. Yeah, no, we've come

5:57

through an enormous period of

5:59

growth. Our business strategy,

6:01

I'd say it's the consistency of the

6:03

business strategy has been really important. Within

6:06

Canada, we're number one in

6:08

most businesses that we have, whether

6:10

it's capital markets, wealth management,

6:12

commercial banking, retail banking. We

6:15

are the number one player with

6:17

number one market share. And then

6:19

outside of Canada, we compete in...

6:21

a couple of global businesses that

6:23

we've done really well in. Capital

6:25

markets, we're a top 10 global

6:27

player and kind of number nine

6:29

in the United States, one of

6:31

the largest non -US based banks.

6:33

And we compete very well, you

6:35

know, in Fortune 200 to Fortune

6:37

500. We've got a very strong

6:40

investment banking and markets business in

6:42

the United States and a global

6:44

business. So I would say top

6:46

10 in the world in our

6:48

global capital markets business with strong

6:50

operations. North America, Europe,

6:52

and Asia. And then the global

6:54

wealth business, another area we

6:56

compete outside of Canada exceptionally well

6:58

with, again, similar footprint. United

7:00

States, we're the number five player

7:02

in wealth distribution. United States,

7:04

based on AUA, over 700 billion

7:06

US in AUA. And then

7:08

a strong presence in Europe, we're

7:10

the number three player in

7:12

the UK. So we've got a

7:14

global wealth franchise. So in

7:16

Canada, we're all things to all

7:18

people. Outside of Canada, we

7:20

really focus on capital markets, wealth,

7:22

and then commercial banking in

7:24

the United States with Citi National.

7:26

I made that acquisition my

7:28

third month as CEO about 10

7:31

years ago, and that's been

7:33

a really strong acquisition. So outside

7:35

of Canada, we pick markets

7:37

and customer franchises we think we

7:39

can compete in and do

7:41

well. We're not a global

7:43

retail bank outside Canada. Some banks

7:45

tried that and pulled back. So

7:47

it's our focus and our consistency

7:49

of strategy and our execution against

7:51

that has been really, really strong.

7:53

And we've taken the business from,

7:55

I think it took over about

7:57

$110 billion market cap to $250

7:59

billion. Well, that's impressive. And when

8:01

you think about the strategic process

8:03

that you have, how much do

8:05

you tweak your strategy every year?

8:07

You tweak the execution against the

8:09

strategy for sure. One of

8:11

the questions I ask my team, we all

8:13

talk about why we didn't win or where we

8:15

didn't do well. But just as importantly, you

8:17

have to ask your team, why did we win?

8:19

And is it repeatable at the end of

8:21

the day? Because a lot of leaders assume or

8:23

don't spend time thinking, we had a great

8:26

year. Exactly which part of the things, all the

8:28

things we did worked, which didn't. And which

8:30

ones are you going to repeat? And which ones

8:32

aren't even repeatable? Like, I don't have Taylor

8:34

Swift next year. I wish she would go on

8:36

concert again on a tour. But I don't

8:38

have Taylor Swift. That's not repeatable. So

8:40

what are you going to do to get

8:42

600 ,000 accounts next year? So helping your

8:44

team focus on why we want and what

8:46

you're going to do the same, but what

8:48

you need to change. So I think you're

8:50

always thinking about, I call it more the

8:52

tactics. Within this strategy, you're looking at the

8:54

environment and how the environment's changing. You know,

8:57

in the world of tariffs that we have,

8:59

in the world of AI. geopolitics?

9:01

Are there macro forces that force you

9:03

to think about serving different segments of

9:05

the client base, pulling back here, expanding

9:07

there, serving new markets? So part of

9:09

my job as a CEO is to

9:11

constantly look five to 10 years out.

9:13

Where do we need to be? Do

9:16

we need to be in a different

9:18

market? Do I need to be bigger

9:20

in Asia? Yes. Do I need to

9:22

be bigger in Europe? Yes. Do I

9:24

need to be bigger in the United

9:26

States? Yes, I do. How am I

9:28

going to affect that change? What does

9:30

success look like five years, 10 years

9:32

from now, organic and inorganic? So that's

9:34

a big part of the CEO's job.

9:36

So I'm always testing, asking, learning, thinking,

9:38

what if we did this? So you're

9:40

thinking strategically five years out, you're executing

9:42

one to three against that plan, making

9:44

sure that you continue to roll forward

9:46

with strong performance. And you keep a

9:48

horizon of initiatives. You don't just focus

9:50

on the next year, but what do

9:52

we have in the one to three

9:54

-year bucket that's going to perform for

9:56

us? And then what do you have

9:58

in a three to five? So I

10:00

think around horizons and making sure that

10:02

we have a balanced approach in how

10:04

we spend our $35 billion of NIE

10:06

a year. You mentioned tariffs, and I

10:08

got to ask you this. How

10:11

is the Canadian -United

10:13

States relationship really impacting

10:15

your business today? You

10:17

know, since Trump has come

10:19

on and enacted the tariffs

10:21

and, know, there's been

10:24

a lot of vitriol going

10:26

back and forth. You know,

10:28

how does how's this impacting

10:30

you? I think Canadians are

10:32

shocked by the vitriol. And

10:34

we've been closest friends sharing

10:36

a common border with balanced

10:38

trade for 100 years and

10:40

more. And we've we've never

10:42

questioned that. When you

10:44

have balanced trade and each side's winning $400

10:46

billion going each way each year, we

10:48

trade a little bit more in energy. You

10:50

sell us more goods and food. But

10:53

net net, it's, know, 400, 450 billion.

10:55

And we should be focused just on growing

10:57

both of those because both nations prosper

10:59

from that. And we don't have to do

11:01

it all ourselves. So we

11:03

don't understand kind of the narrative

11:06

and the objective then as to kind

11:08

of what outcome are we looking

11:10

for at the end of the day.

11:12

So a lot of time is

11:14

being spent. A part of it, the

11:16

administration wasn't confirmed. We didn't, the

11:19

seats weren't there. Now everyone's, the administration's

11:21

in their seat. And therefore, I

11:23

think the dialogue is more focused and

11:25

we can move stuff forward. But

11:27

I don't think, I think we need

11:29

to solve for this. I think

11:32

we're going down a dangerous path that

11:34

I think we're stronger. America's stronger

11:36

with friends like Canada. I think America.

11:39

Success, an enormous success and

11:41

prosperity has come from multilateralism,

11:43

building bridges to the world,

11:45

being the free market leader. And

11:48

I think there's a huge

11:50

benefit to America in doing that.

11:52

Going down an isolationist path

11:54

is a different strategy altogether. And

11:57

I'm worried about it, to be

11:59

honest. Yeah, I think a lot of

12:01

people are, and certainly the markets

12:03

are, at least at this stage, for

12:05

sure. And, you know, Dave,

12:08

you've spent your entire career at

12:10

RBC, and it's an amazing track record

12:12

that you developed. And I can't

12:14

wait to talk more about it. But

12:16

I want to take you back,

12:18

you know. What's a story

12:20

from your childhood that shaped

12:22

the kind of leader you are

12:24

today? I grew up in

12:26

Montreal, and my family, my father

12:28

was an entrepreneur. small

12:30

business owner. And I watched my

12:32

mother and father run this

12:34

small business for over a decade.

12:36

And I watched how hard

12:38

they were. We imported high -end

12:40

lighting from Italy. We had the

12:42

rights to some of the

12:44

top designers in Italy and Sweden.

12:46

And we sold it to

12:48

high net worth individuals in New

12:50

York and LA and parts

12:52

of Canada. for their homes and

12:55

their businesses. And whatever didn't sell ended up

12:57

in our home at the end of the day.

12:59

So our home looked a little bit more

13:01

like the Jetsons when I was growing up. Stuff

13:03

that didn't sell, if people remember the Jetsons.

13:05

Maybe you and I remember the Jetsons, but maybe...

13:07

Oh, yeah. I think I

13:09

remember that jingle. I won't sing it because

13:12

I'm not very good at singing. So,

13:14

you know, watching them work so hard

13:16

really made a big impression on me. And

13:18

the fun and the challenges of running.

13:20

a small business when how they dealt with

13:22

their suppliers. And in those days, your

13:24

suppliers, when they came in from Italy or

13:26

Sweden, they came over for dinner all

13:28

the time. And then we got to know

13:31

them. So all their families would come

13:33

over in the summer and their kids would

13:35

stay with us to learn English. So

13:37

it was very much how business integrated and

13:39

partnerships. I watched how my father dealt

13:41

with all stakeholders in the business, as employees.

13:43

I, 10 years old, I

13:45

was in the warehouse kind of

13:47

rewiring Italian lights for Canadian. lighting

13:50

standards, CSA standards, and pulling

13:52

wires through this stuff and

13:54

working with the back office

13:56

to the sales side. So

13:59

I saw all elements. And

14:01

I'll never forget one day

14:03

my father took me to the

14:05

bank. We happened to bank

14:07

with Royal Bank. That was my only connection.

14:09

And we were a small business customer of the

14:11

bank. And my father walks into the bank

14:13

and we were going to make a deposit that

14:15

day. And we were standing in line to

14:17

see a teller. Branch manager comes out

14:20

and pulls my father out of the line. I

14:22

don't think we were a big customer, but he liked

14:24

my father. And we sat in the manager's office.

14:26

So here I am, like nine years old, sitting in

14:28

the manager's office. And my father turns

14:30

to me and says, we're going to lend the bank

14:32

some money today, which meant we're making a deposit. And

14:34

I had to think about that. Okay. Didn't

14:36

think about it that way. So

14:39

that was my introduction to RBC. And

14:44

tragically, I came home from school one

14:46

day. I was 13 years old. My

14:48

father passed away. And

14:50

that's a seminal event where it kind

14:52

of changed everything in my life

14:54

and our family's life and the business

14:56

life. But I learned a lot

14:58

from him in those years. I had

15:00

him from, I remember kind of

15:02

those early years up to age 13.

15:05

And I learned a lot about

15:07

the business world and how to build

15:09

a business from him. I was

15:11

an incredibly curious individual. Father

15:14

and your mother are very

15:16

relationship -driven. How much do you

15:18

think that's led to your success

15:20

in the world of banking,

15:22

which you've got to build relationships?

15:25

It's such a great question.

15:27

It's so true. You think about

15:29

building long -lasting relationships with customers,

15:31

your relationship with your employees,

15:33

your relationship with the board. We're

15:36

in a world of relationships and

15:38

trust. People do business with people

15:40

they like and they trust, right?

15:42

That's the kind of the rules that

15:44

you and I have lived by and

15:47

everyone lives by. And therefore, how you

15:49

build that authentically and sustain that over

15:51

time is critical. And they made a

15:53

very strong impression on me, whether it

15:55

was a branch manager or families in

15:57

Italy that would come over and trust

15:59

us with their kids or those employees

16:02

that worked in the warehouse or in

16:04

the sales floor. know, you

16:06

learn, you see and watch. the

16:09

relationships they build, and you see the

16:11

ones that don't work as well. You

16:13

learn as much from ones that fracture

16:15

a little bit. Not everything's perfect. There's

16:17

so much to learn there as well.

16:19

And that made a huge impression on

16:21

me. And it's kind of the foundation

16:23

of, I think, how I've operated throughout

16:25

my entire career is managing and leading

16:27

and getting to know people across the

16:29

organization, but really building long -term relationships

16:31

with customers. It's a part of the

16:33

job I love the most at the

16:35

end of the day. Yeah, I can

16:38

see that because you've got that personality

16:40

where I'm sure you adapt to everybody.

16:42

And that's a great leadership skill to

16:44

have. And so your dad passes away

16:46

at 13. And as I understand it,

16:48

your mother takes over the business and

16:50

runs the business for five years or

16:52

more. What leadership lesson

16:54

did you learn from your mother

16:56

watching her in action? Yeah, she's

16:58

my hero the end of

17:00

the day. So here, picture this,

17:02

13, 10, and six. family

17:05

very traditional family kind of middle

17:07

income house in the suburbs and she's

17:09

a housewife and now she's got

17:11

to run the company and she's got

17:13

to make the buying trips to

17:15

italy and she's got to kind of

17:17

build a relation different relationship with

17:19

the families in italy and sweden and

17:21

others and you know i never

17:23

forget like The neighbors would come over.

17:26

We'd go to the neighbors for

17:28

a week, and she'd go on a

17:30

buying trip to Italy, and she'd

17:32

go on a buying trip to Sweden.

17:35

So I watched her kind of run

17:37

this business, all elements of it,

17:39

deal with the loss of my father,

17:41

and they were very close, and

17:43

try to raise three young kids at

17:45

the same time. And we all

17:47

turned out okay the other day. That's

17:50

pretty incredible, isn't it? Resilience.

17:54

Absolutely. Love and

17:56

resilience. Yeah,

17:58

that's that's great. And then,

18:00

you know, you started your career

18:02

in 1983. You mentioned a

18:05

little bit earlier that as a

18:07

co -op student in computer programming,

18:10

know, even though you didn't stay

18:12

in that role for very long. What

18:14

did you notice when you went to RBC

18:16

about the culture that really made you

18:18

want to stick around? Yeah, I think my

18:20

nickname as a quarter was Infinite Loop

18:22

at the end of the day. It

18:26

was my entry into the bank. I

18:28

never forget. I really needed a job. And

18:30

those days when I walked into the

18:32

branch manager's office were long before that. I

18:34

guess I was about 18 or 19

18:36

years old. I got a coding job in

18:38

the international banking division. For me, I

18:40

started in the tech side as a coder,

18:42

as an intern at the University of

18:44

Waterloo. And that's kind of the

18:46

MIT of Canada. And it was a great

18:49

program. I didn't love the coding side

18:51

of things. I really wanted to be on

18:53

the business side. customer side.

18:55

So when they came to me after,

18:57

I guess it was a year and

18:59

a half of doing this, I was

19:01

all in to try something different with

19:03

the bank. But what I loved about

19:05

the organization was how much they were

19:07

willing to invest in their employees. Here

19:09

they took this young person, I think

19:11

I was 18 at the time, and

19:13

they said, we think you have management

19:15

potential and we'd like to train you

19:17

to lead and to deal with customers.

19:19

And I said, that's just great. So

19:21

it was... First, it was

19:23

investing. I was a young person. I

19:25

hadn't been in any other cultures.

19:28

I delivered newspapers, been a lifeguard, done

19:30

these types of stuff to get

19:32

by, mowed lawns. So this was my

19:34

first big company. And so it

19:36

was a great learning journey. It was

19:38

how I worked with my manager.

19:40

It was how I saw employees dealing

19:43

with each other, their respect, the

19:45

debate with passion, but agree on a

19:47

direction and implement. You could see

19:49

that not everyone agreed. but everyone got

19:51

on with it at the end

19:53

of the day and worked together. So

19:56

I saw this culture of working

19:58

together on behalf of the objective. And

20:00

then when I got into the

20:02

customer side of things, that's when I

20:04

really felt the customer centricity. And

20:06

it was real. Everything was

20:08

designed to put the customer first.

20:10

So it's not just talking about it,

20:12

but how do your reward systems

20:15

reward? teamwork to the customer, you see

20:17

so many competitors, so many companies

20:19

that divide their employees against the customer

20:21

and they fight for the customer

20:23

and the customer feels that. At the

20:25

end of the day that, oh,

20:27

they're fighting for me. It's about them,

20:29

not me. When you can present

20:31

yourself as a unified team in front

20:33

of the customer and you work out the

20:35

compensation, the recognition issues to make that

20:37

fair, you want the customer to feel the

20:40

power of the organization is working for

20:42

them, not for yourself. And

20:44

I felt that when I moved

20:46

in and I saw how the

20:48

organization worked. Here's a company that's

20:50

got challenges, like anyone, but it's

20:52

customer focus. The systems and

20:54

the culture work together. And

20:56

I felt that. Yeah, that's such an

20:58

important point, you know, because, you

21:01

know, a lot of times people say

21:03

they're customer focus, but their systems

21:05

work totally against it. And, you know,

21:07

as I... I was doing my

21:09

research, and as you were coming up,

21:11

I heard you talk about this

21:13

idea of having three jobs at once.

21:15

Could you explain that? Yeah, it's

21:17

something I tell young people in the

21:20

organization, because you're always, you know,

21:22

when you were CEO, you're always asked,

21:24

how did you get here? You

21:26

know, give me something I can use

21:28

every day to improve my upward

21:30

momentum in the organization. And this whole

21:32

idea of... three jobs in every

21:34

job. And it comes to the foundation

21:37

of you have to increase your

21:39

knowledge and learning cadence faster than the

21:41

people around you if you want

21:43

to move ahead. And therefore, that's in

21:45

your control to do that. And

21:47

the faster you learn, the more you

21:49

learn, the more knowledge into value.

21:51

So I saw data to knowledge to

21:53

value. So I've always

21:56

tried to, I was always curious. I

21:58

always had this massive appetite to

22:00

learn. So learning three jobs is learn

22:02

your own. Learn your boss's job

22:04

because you sit in these meetings, these

22:06

team meetings once a week, and

22:08

you watch your boss. What challenges are

22:10

they doing? How do they manage

22:12

your peers? How do your peers interact

22:14

with your boss? And you want

22:16

to do that because one day you

22:18

might be in that job. And

22:20

therefore, train your mind now as to how

22:22

it's being done today and how you might do

22:24

it. And then the third job is learn

22:26

one of your peers' jobs because you may be

22:28

lateraled into one of those jobs. So

22:31

try to learn. And you want to be a good

22:33

partner to your peers. So the more you know about

22:35

their role and what they're trying to achieve, the better

22:37

partner you can be. So if

22:39

you're staying a year in a job

22:41

or two years, if you can

22:43

learn three jobs every two years, over

22:45

six years, you've thought about nine

22:47

jobs. And therefore, you accelerate how you

22:49

think about leading in an organization,

22:51

the challenges in an organization. Invariably,

22:54

I got promoted into my boss's

22:56

job. And the narrative that I was

22:58

able to develop was, It looks

23:00

like Dave's done this job already for

23:02

two years. Like he stepped into

23:04

his two months at the job and

23:06

it looks like he's been there

23:08

two years. Yes, because I've been thinking

23:10

about it for two years. So

23:12

I'm ready. So you accelerate your ability

23:14

to add value. You accelerate your

23:16

learning curve and you progress through a

23:18

large organization or a small organization

23:20

much more quickly and you become a

23:22

more valuable asset. So I tell

23:24

all young people, every opportunity, it's not

23:26

just one job. That

23:28

means in 10 years, you might only have

23:30

five jobs. You want to have 15 jobs

23:33

in 10 years in your head. That is

23:35

such a great insight. I mean, that is

23:37

a tremendous insight. And it worked for you,

23:39

obviously, because you climbed the ranks faster than

23:41

just about anyone at RBC had ever done

23:43

before. And when you're coming up like that,

23:45

you're blowing by a lot of people. How

23:49

did you deal with that pressure? Because that

23:51

does put pressure on you. All of a

23:53

sudden you've got, you know, older people working

23:55

for you. You've got, you know, a lot

23:57

of things are changing in dynamics there. How

24:00

did you deal with the pressure? It's a

24:02

great question. I think part of it is

24:04

because you've trained yourself to understand the role,

24:06

you bring a certain amount of credibility in

24:08

how you talk about the job versus I'm

24:10

here. I don't know anything. Please teach me.

24:12

And that's where the animosity can, well, they

24:14

put this Dave in the job. He doesn't

24:16

know anything. Why do I have to train

24:18

him? And you get a

24:20

lot of that in big companies, honestly. If

24:22

you get to the job and you

24:24

know the questions they're asking, you've dealt with

24:26

a number of these individuals before, you

24:29

can be more relevant and more focused and

24:31

create value and build credibility more quickly.

24:33

So part of it, everything, you want to

24:35

build credibility more quickly. I also

24:37

had a strong motto for leaders. It's

24:39

more important to be respected than liked.

24:41

I have got so many leaders that

24:43

overemphasize liked. I want to be liked.

24:45

And it stops you from making the

24:47

tough decisions. And in many cases, I

24:50

had to move some people out because

24:52

I set a very high bar and

24:54

I have very ambitious goals. And that's

24:56

kind of one of the signature, I

24:58

don't if we'll talk about that, signature

25:00

themes I bring to every job is

25:02

ambitious goals. And many people weren't willing

25:04

to sign up for that. So you

25:06

make the change and you surround yourself

25:08

with those teams. So partly credibility, partly

25:11

goal setting, setting ambitions. Some people check

25:13

out from that. And then you rebuild

25:15

your team around what you want to

25:17

do and you do it fast. So

25:19

I tried to stay away from the

25:21

emotion of being liked at the end

25:23

of the day all the time. But

25:25

being respected was really important. subscribe

25:38

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26:11

thank you so much for listening. Say

26:14

more about the

26:16

power of setting

26:18

ambitious goals. It's

26:21

everything. It's everything.

26:23

And maybe I'll start at the top.

26:25

So when I evaluate leaders in the

26:27

top 50 or 100 leaders in our

26:29

organization, we have 100 ,000 people. David,

26:32

I use a two -dimensional grid. On

26:34

one axis, I have personal

26:36

ambition. And on the other axis,

26:38

I have organizational ambition. And

26:41

what I'm looking for is both.

26:43

But particularly, I need to

26:45

see organizational ambition. We have

26:47

many leaders who show personal ambition

26:49

for title, for status, for power,

26:51

for money. But some of them

26:53

don't show organizational ambition. And those are the

26:55

ones who tend to be a problem in

26:57

the organization. Their status, their blockers, their silent

27:00

blockers is about them. They want to get

27:02

ahead. They're protective. They're not confident

27:04

at times. They present a challenge. Ideally,

27:06

you need both. To take on organizational

27:08

ambition, you need some personal ambition to

27:10

take risk. So we're always trying to

27:12

measure, have you set an ambitious goal

27:14

for the organization? At the end of

27:16

the day, what does that look like?

27:18

Whether you're running a product, a service,

27:20

a back office, whatever you happen to

27:22

do, what is your ambitious goal? And

27:25

will people follow you in that goal? It's

27:28

okay to have organizational ambition, but lower personal

27:30

ambition. It means I don't necessarily want to

27:32

be CEO. Maybe I don't want to be

27:34

on the group executive, but I want to

27:36

be part of a team that's high performing,

27:38

that stretches itself. That's fine too. So we

27:40

try to slot people in and say, how

27:42

are they behaving now? Can we coach them

27:44

if they're off track? But

27:47

when we think about setting organizational ambition,

27:49

it's critical to getting ahead in our

27:51

organization. And then we have to coach

27:53

down. It's so easy to fall back

27:55

into, let's play it safe. Let's set

27:57

a budget or a target that we

27:59

know we can meet because I don't

28:02

want to fail. And that is not

28:04

good the end of the day.

28:06

So when people set budgets and

28:08

then we rate it afterwards, we have

28:10

a note. Did you set an

28:12

aggressive target or did you set a

28:14

safe target? And if you beat

28:16

the safe target... Maybe that's not good

28:18

enough. If you miss the aggressive

28:20

target, that still might be better. So

28:22

we have a qualitative approach to

28:24

our budget setting as well that tries

28:26

to evaluate up front how much

28:28

risk did the person really stake their

28:30

claim to. The other element of

28:32

taking risks, I firmly believe, is risk

28:34

-taking in an organization is about... yourself

28:37

publicly. I have a lot of leaders, and

28:39

I see leaders who want to take a risk

28:41

but keep it quiet. I don't want anyone

28:43

to see, and if I'm successful, I'll tell you

28:45

about it the other day. But then it's

28:47

hard to marshal resources and excitement in an organization

28:49

if you don't declare yourself. So

28:52

I really push my leaders, and we're going

28:54

to have an investor day in 10 days,

28:56

and each one of my leaders can get

28:58

up and declare themselves publicly in front of

29:00

investors. I'm going to... drive the

29:02

organization to hear, these are my KPIs.

29:04

You can measure me every quarter against

29:06

it. That's how

29:08

we play. And I think

29:10

declaring yourself is another element of

29:12

ambition and of taking risks.

29:14

So we push our leaders to

29:16

say, I'm going to do

29:18

this. And that's what I've done

29:20

my whole career. Whatever role

29:22

I took on, I started by

29:24

saying, okay, took the

29:26

credit card business. We're third largest credit

29:28

card business in the country. I said, we

29:31

are going to double this business in three

29:33

to four years. And I saw people in

29:35

the back row of the auditorium rolling their

29:37

eyes and snickering and saying, he's out of

29:40

his mind. And they go, no, this is

29:42

how we're going to do it. And then

29:44

you take these big goals and you start

29:46

breaking them down. So if we're going to

29:48

double a business, I need this many new

29:50

customers. I need each customer to use their

29:52

product this much. I need to take out

29:54

this much cost. And you chunk it down.

29:57

If I need this many customers, how many

29:59

new products do I And you just break

30:01

it down into digestible pieces and say, okay,

30:03

you're going to run with this piece. So

30:06

it sounds scary, but then you

30:08

break it down into more manageable

30:10

pieces. And I've always found,

30:12

and we see this, leaders who set

30:14

ambitious goals attract A talent. And leaders who

30:16

set unambitious goals attract C talent, B

30:18

at best. Yeah. And the fact is, is

30:20

that people do not want to go

30:22

to work and be a part of something

30:25

mediocre. And, you know, one of the

30:27

things that, you know, I've always believed, and

30:29

you espouse this very clearly, is that

30:31

once you go public, you can't go back

30:33

because you lose your integrity. I mean,

30:35

all those people rolling their eyes, right, in

30:37

the back of the crowd. And if

30:39

you don't do what you said, I mean,

30:41

how much credibility you going to have

30:44

the next time you get up there, right?

30:46

And, you know, David, it's a lot

30:48

more fun. It's a lot more fun. I

30:51

couldn't agree with you more.

30:53

You know, and you have, you

30:55

know. the personal ambition and

30:57

the organizational ambition in spades. And

30:59

you've used this phrase, you

31:01

know, why not me? You know,

31:03

well, when did this why

31:05

not me phrase start to shape

31:07

your thinking? How early on were you

31:09

in your career where you started

31:11

thinking, why not me? Why not me

31:13

kind of came out early in

31:15

my career when I was a co

31:17

-op student and I joined the firm

31:20

full time in the 90s, as

31:22

you pointed out. I didn't even

31:24

know what the CEO did, to

31:26

tell you the truth. I was an

31:28

account manager in the commercial bank

31:30

and training to do that in the

31:32

branches. And I knew there was

31:34

a CEO and I interacted with them

31:36

once in the first kind of

31:38

25 years. I didn't know what they

31:40

did, but I knew it must

31:42

be an interesting job and an incredible

31:44

job to lead an organization like

31:46

RBC. So even though I was 21

31:48

years old at the time, I

31:50

said, I think I'd like to be

31:52

CEO. the end of the day. And

31:55

I had this voice inside my head

31:57

to say, why not me? Like, why

31:59

can't it be me? I'm 21. I

32:01

got a good degree. I

32:03

think I can create value and I'm

32:05

off to a good start. So

32:07

I never dwelled on it, honestly, but

32:09

I always had this quiet voice in

32:11

my head that kept, until someone tells

32:14

me it's not me, the end

32:16

of the day, then I'm going

32:18

to keep thinking, why not me? And I'm going

32:20

to keep building my career towards that. I

32:22

had one person try to tell me it probably

32:24

isn't going to be you early in my career.

32:27

And, know, I thought

32:29

about it for a while. I said, I don't

32:31

think they're right. Still, why not me? So

32:34

I always had this quiet. I

32:36

never talked to anybody really about being

32:38

CEO right up until the last

32:40

couple of years until I was made

32:42

CEO. But I always had this

32:44

quiet confidence that it could be me.

32:47

And Dave, you obviously. And

32:50

you did push forward and you achieved

32:52

it. And you are, you have quiet

32:54

confidence and you exude confidence. Okay. And,

32:57

but I have to ask you, you know, you

32:59

know, did you ever

33:01

have one of those moments when

33:03

the doubt really creeped in, you

33:06

know, about the why not me

33:08

or whatever it might be? And

33:10

then, you know, how did you

33:12

handle it? I did in a

33:14

number of cases. I, I worked

33:16

on a few projects where. I

33:19

knew I was going to have to take

33:21

risk. And, you know, if

33:23

things didn't work out, I said this,

33:25

you know, it might not be me.

33:27

It doesn't work out. So for the

33:29

most part, I always took that risk

33:31

saying, you know, if it's not here,

33:33

it could be somewhere else at the

33:35

end of the day. So I think

33:37

one of the things that gave me

33:39

psychological freedom to take risk in the

33:41

organization is I was always viewed as

33:43

someone who's willing to take risk, to

33:45

take larger bets and to innovate. And

33:47

I did that because I had psychological

33:50

freedom. I was never afraid to lose

33:52

my job. So I got a good

33:54

degree. I think I'll be okay. I'll

33:56

find a job somewhere. So I was

33:58

never worried about failing. And I try

34:00

to liberate others around me. But sometimes

34:02

we took on projects where it got

34:04

bumpy. We thought this was the path.

34:06

This is the path. And therefore, this

34:08

is a little bumpier than we planned.

34:10

At the end of the day, I

34:12

always put... best for the organization and

34:14

what do we do about this? And

34:16

if it looks bad on me at

34:18

the end of the day, I'll wear

34:21

that. I think it's so important to

34:23

celebrate success with your team. They get

34:25

all the success and you got to

34:27

wear the failures. That way they'll continue

34:29

to take risk with you. At the

34:31

end of the day, if it's the

34:33

other way around, they'll never take risk

34:35

with you. So I was always mindful

34:37

of, just need this team to be

34:39

always aligned. And therefore I said, guys,

34:41

if this thing fails. I'll wear it.

34:43

And even with our largest acquisition of

34:45

HSBC, I continued to say, look, if

34:47

this deal doesn't go through for some

34:49

reason, I'm going to wear that. So

34:52

I think that part of that philosophy

34:54

gave me psychological freedom. I honestly never

34:56

dwelled on, oh man, I might not

34:58

be CEO if I get this wrong.

35:00

That would have really caused me to

35:02

be fearful. And I think it's... It's

35:04

a terrible hockey analogy, but when teams

35:06

have a lead and they're continually dumping

35:08

the puck out of their end and

35:10

they're playing defense, invariably the other team

35:12

comes down and scores. It's

35:14

a bad formula. I

35:17

never got into the mindset got to keep dumping

35:19

the puck out of my own end to play

35:21

it safe. I just said, look, I'm going to

35:23

play it the way I've always played it. I'm

35:25

going to stay on offense. I love doing that.

35:27

And, you know, why not me?

35:30

So, you know, when you're coming

35:32

up, you obviously have to make

35:34

some big presentations, some big pitches

35:36

to really get things done. Could

35:38

you tell us a story of

35:40

the first time you had to

35:42

present to your predecessor, who was

35:44

Gordon Nixon, as I understand, and

35:46

what lesson did that teach you? I

35:49

do remember one. I've talked about

35:51

this internally, but not externally. I do

35:53

remember. One of my first presentations

35:55

to Gordon, the senior management team, I

35:57

was a senior vice president. I

36:00

was in of our deposit franchise, our

36:02

consumer deposit franchise. And I just

36:04

taken it over. And I

36:06

noticed that we were losing a lot

36:08

of market share to INGs of the

36:10

world on the high interest savings account.

36:12

And we didn't have a high interest

36:14

savings account. And I said, why don't

36:16

we have a high interest savings account?

36:18

Because it's expensive. I said. That's

36:20

not a very customer -centric answer. I

36:22

said, the customer wants it. Why don't we have

36:24

it? I didn't get a good answer. I said, well,

36:27

we're going to build one at the end of

36:29

the day. And then the team came to me. Do

36:31

you realize how much money we're going to lose

36:33

if we build this product? And I

36:35

said, do you know how many customers we

36:37

might lose if we don't? I said, well,

36:39

they said, you're going to have to go

36:41

get an approval from Gord to launch this

36:43

because we don't normally do products that lose

36:45

money. And I said, well, this

36:47

is an investment in the long -term of the

36:49

client franchise. So I had to present to

36:51

him why I wanted to launch this product

36:54

and how much money it was going to

36:56

lose. And I never forget, I was sitting

36:58

around a table of kind of eight senior

37:00

executives and Gorb's at the head of the

37:02

table. And I presented the customer philosophy and

37:04

building a long -term franchise. And this was

37:06

an important product suite to maintain the customer

37:08

relationship and not let others get a wedge

37:10

in. And then they got to the financials

37:12

and I said, you know, The bad outcome

37:14

is X and the good outcome is Y.

37:16

And Y was still had a negative in

37:18

front of it, red. And

37:21

I never forget one of the senior guys was

37:23

looking down at the table and I looked up

37:25

and he said, are you really here to tell

37:27

us that you're going to lose money on this

37:29

product? And I go, yeah, I am. And

37:32

dead silence around the

37:34

table. And Gord,

37:36

it was a great, he leaned back and

37:38

he said, but Dave's

37:40

right. what choice do we have?

37:42

This is about building long -term customer value.

37:44

Like we kind of got to do this,

37:47

don't we? And I go, exactly. But

37:49

I went in there having no idea how

37:51

he and the team would react, but

37:53

had conviction that this was good for the

37:55

long -term health of the franchise. So

37:57

I haven't told that publicly before,

38:00

but I tell that story internally about

38:02

having conviction about long -term value. Here

38:04

you are now. You

38:06

used to be pitching the ideas. Now

38:08

you're getting pitched too. So

38:11

how did the earlier experiences

38:13

that you had, pitching ideas to

38:15

Gordon or top executives, how

38:17

has that shaped how you listen

38:20

and respond to the people

38:22

who are pitching you now? It's

38:24

so important because you got

38:26

to recognize how. How scared it

38:28

is to come and pitch

38:30

to a CEO at the end

38:32

the day. They

38:35

prepare a lot. They

38:37

don't get a lot of moments. They want

38:39

to be successful. So you have to

38:41

empathize with that, that this is a big

38:43

moment. A lot of work's gone into

38:45

that. But you've got to also make the

38:47

right decision for the organization. And therefore,

38:50

you have to get the answers. I don't

38:52

know how you found it, but I

38:54

certainly found... that information flows unevenly to the

38:56

CEO office at the end of the

38:58

day. This is not the Harvard Business School

39:00

where everything's written down in 15 pages.

39:02

You got to read it the night before

39:05

and come prepared to discuss. You got

39:07

to find information across the organization. Some of

39:09

it's subconsciously changed or some of it

39:11

just doesn't come in full format. So a

39:13

big part of a CEO's job is

39:15

just getting the right information to try to

39:17

make the decision and understanding. where

39:20

it's done. So you have to work

39:22

hard as a CEO to triangulate, I

39:24

call it, to make sure you understand

39:26

the dimensions to the larger problem, not

39:28

every problem. And therefore you have to

39:30

work with people and recognize some of

39:32

their tendencies to say, am I getting

39:34

the whole story or part story? Do

39:37

you have the context of how this

39:39

could impact the organization or is your,

39:41

because of the role you have in

39:43

the organization, your context is limited and

39:45

you might not see everything else, which

39:47

often happens in there for you. Senior

39:49

people bring more context, more connectivity of

39:51

what happens. So I'm very conscious of

39:53

context. I'm conscious of the moment in

39:56

time. And then opportunities to develop an

39:58

individual. So if there's holes in the

40:00

kind of thinking or theory, you kind

40:02

of have to gently walk people through.

40:04

Doesn't impact this decision. But is it

40:06

next time? It would be good if

40:08

maybe we looked at it this way

40:10

or we brought a different framework to

40:13

analyze a problem. But for this decision.

40:15

I'm OK moving forward or not. So

40:17

it's always a coaching moment. I try

40:19

to be conscious of every interaction, like

40:21

the three for one. How can you

40:24

help the team and this individual in

40:26

the short term and the long term

40:28

be a better leader, better thinker? We'll

40:30

be back with the rest of my conversation

40:32

with Dave McKay in just a moment. But he's

40:35

not the only leader who understands the power

40:37

of a big vision. Taco Bell

40:39

CEO Mark King also believes in

40:41

big aspirations. He says they're

40:43

key. to unlocking new levels of

40:45

creativity on your team. I

40:47

believe that we have to try

40:49

to do something extraordinary. And

40:51

that changes depending on where your

40:53

company is, where your brand

40:55

is. But I just really believe

40:57

in chasing something that's really

40:59

out of reach. And I would

41:01

just say we need a

41:03

big aspiration. And my aspiration here

41:05

wasn't fixing the world. It

41:07

was 10 % same -store sales group.

41:09

Because I believe that if

41:11

you have this big aspiration and...

41:13

thinking is here, meaning you

41:15

don't know how to get there,

41:17

you fill that gap with

41:19

creative ideas. And so for me,

41:21

it's unlocking the potential of

41:23

people to find new creative solutions

41:25

to be disruptive by driving

41:27

with a big aspiration and filling

41:29

that gap with creative ideas.

41:31

Go back and listen to my

41:33

entire conversation with Mark, episode

41:35

163, here on How Leaders Lead.

41:38

We talked earlier about what you

41:40

found attractive when you were just

41:42

joined RBC in terms of the

41:45

culture and the work environment. Now

41:47

as the CEO, you're shaping the

41:49

culture. What are you

41:51

trying to bring to RBC from a cultural

41:53

standpoint that's new and different or you

41:55

think will take the company to the next

41:57

level? The way I describe it to

41:59

the team is when you're the market leader,

42:01

you're on the open road and there's

42:03

nobody in front of you to mark. So

42:05

my competitors get up in front and

42:07

say, look, hey, we want to beat Royal

42:09

here. We're going to match Royal here.

42:11

We're going to take market share from Royal.

42:13

So they're targeting you and you're going

42:15

down the road and they're trying to beat

42:17

you. We have open

42:20

road in front of us. So we

42:22

have to take the turns for the

42:24

first time. And therefore, you're really coaching

42:26

people to think about boldly looking at

42:28

the road ahead as a number one

42:30

market player. And how do you coach

42:32

them to really ambitiously want to take

42:34

the corners at speed? And as we

42:36

like to say, let's take the middle

42:38

of the highway and let's force our

42:40

competitors, if they want to try to

42:42

pass this, to be in a ditch.

42:44

Because we got the middle of the

42:47

highway and there's no room for anybody

42:49

else. So as you think about, as

42:51

I call the culture of a winning

42:53

culture from the front, we are not

42:55

copying people. We have to create. And

42:57

therefore, you're creating the strategies of the

42:59

future. You are always scanning for best practices

43:02

and we're not. arrogant that we don't

43:04

think our competitors can hurt us. We're always

43:06

looking over our shoulder to say, are

43:08

they coming at us? What are they trying

43:10

to do? So we were very conscious

43:12

of that because everybody does something well, but

43:14

we're also trying to create a culture

43:17

of you're out front. You got to figure

43:19

out the next move and you got

43:21

to execute it and you're not copying it

43:23

from anybody. And that requires a different

43:25

type of leadership and mindset. It's like a

43:27

winning team taking the floor. We take

43:29

the floor. We expect to win. That's our

43:32

culture. We don't just want to try

43:34

or do, do okay. We expect to win

43:36

because our investors expect it to win.

43:38

I had heard you were competitive. I'm

43:43

a little bit afraid to play in golf

43:45

or anything right now because you're going to

43:47

take no prisoners and you're going to win.

43:50

And competition is a great thing.

43:52

I mean, being a competitor

43:54

is a great thing and something

43:56

that I valued in people.

43:59

But sometimes people can... misinterpret

44:01

it, okay? Or they don't

44:03

quite get what you mean

44:05

by it. You know, how

44:07

do you help everybody understand

44:09

the competitive animalistic attitude that

44:11

you have? I am hyper

44:13

-competitive. But I also,

44:15

yeah, if you ask me how do

44:18

I define myself, I know I'm competitive.

44:20

But I also balance it with the

44:22

how. Because our culture is about the

44:24

how as well. So it has to

44:26

be both. If you're 160 years old,

44:28

we plan on being here for another

44:30

160 plus years. So how you do

44:33

business is critical. And that's what our

44:35

clients really value in us is that

44:37

we'll do the right thing. And we're

44:39

playing for the long term. So you

44:41

want to win, but you're not just

44:43

playing the short term win game. You're

44:45

playing the long term win game. And

44:48

sometimes that means you've got to give

44:50

here and you've got to give there

44:52

to get it. So we very much

44:54

build a culture of the how. How

44:56

do we play together internally? Do

44:58

we talk about structuring systems and

45:00

rewards to promote teamwork? A referral equals

45:02

a sale. Don't fight over the

45:04

sale. If you find the customer, this

45:06

is a better place for the

45:09

customer you'll get credit to and your

45:11

sales target. So referral equals a

45:13

sale. So you're constantly making sure that

45:15

you talk to partnership, you talk

45:17

to client first, you talk to how.

45:19

And therefore, if you put too

45:21

much pressure on people. and they start

45:23

deviating from your culture and start

45:25

doing bad things, bad things for the

45:27

client, bad things overall, then you've

45:29

got to be all over that. So

45:31

you can never set a target

45:33

or set an ambition. It's, we will

45:35

do anything to meet this. That's

45:37

not kind of the message. It is,

45:39

we'll be creative. We will lead.

45:41

We'll take organizational risk, but we have

45:43

to live within our values and

45:46

our culture. Otherwise we have nothing. So

45:48

it's the balance of the two. That's

45:50

so important because you will get

45:52

wayward players in various businesses that will

45:54

do something either because of the

45:56

pressure or to do something that's self

45:59

-centric because they're on a commission structure.

46:01

And you have to just jump

46:03

on that so fast. And there's like

46:05

zero tolerance. So it's, as you

46:07

know, winning, but how you win has

46:09

equal importance in our organization. And

46:11

we celebrate success as a big

46:13

part of our culture as well.

46:16

Sticking on this subject to competition,

46:18

you know, winning is fun. You know,

46:20

winning, there's nothing like, but losing

46:22

stings. I mean, it hurts, you know,

46:24

and did you ever have a

46:27

moment or in your career where you

46:29

really got stung? You know, it

46:31

didn't turn out the way how you

46:33

wanted it to. And then how

46:35

did it influence what you did going

46:37

forward? Always things you do that

46:39

don't work. I mean, I've had a

46:41

number of product launches that haven't

46:43

worked out. And you just have to

46:45

go back and say, did you

46:47

miss something on the way in? Or

46:49

did you not execute well? So

46:52

was it the idea or the

46:54

execution or just kind of something

46:56

happened? I mean, I'll never forget

46:58

one. These are all public things.

47:00

But I launched the Mike Weir

47:02

credit card right after he won

47:04

the Masters at Augusta National. First

47:06

lefty to win the Masters in

47:08

2003. And we

47:10

launched the Mike Weir credit card. innovative

47:15

that you use the card you got

47:17

your normal points on spend and purchase

47:19

volume but we also gamified it for

47:21

the first time i think in the

47:23

business where each time he won you

47:25

got bonus points as a card holder

47:27

so if you won a regular pga

47:29

tournament it was x if you won

47:31

a major tournament like the masters you

47:33

defend the masters you got three x

47:36

and so we gamified the loyalty to

47:38

mike as a as a canadian left

47:40

-handed golfer in the world of golf

47:42

and um It was a good

47:44

idea, and we were all excited about it,

47:46

and it didn't do very well. And

47:51

we had to pull it. So you go back

47:53

and you say, what did we miss at the

47:55

end of the day? He was riding high in

47:57

popularity. The car just

47:59

didn't sell, and it didn't resonate

48:01

with enough Canadians. We missed some

48:03

stuff along the way, and we

48:06

could have executed better. Other things,

48:08

I put employees into our largest

48:10

drugstore chain. And we opened up

48:12

kind of an RBC kiosk and

48:14

I had employees there. And I

48:16

said, look, there's 10 million non -customers

48:18

that walk into these drugstores. Like

48:20

it's the ReadyAid or the Walgreens

48:22

of America. How good is

48:24

that? Like, where are you going to

48:27

find these customers? They don't come to

48:29

our branches. So I'm going to put

48:31

two employees in this kiosk in CVS

48:33

and you're going to open up credit

48:35

cards and checking accounts. Well, that didn't

48:37

work either because they ended up. telling

48:39

people where the toothpaste was and the

48:41

toilet paper. Nobody asked them about credit

48:43

cards. So they end up being free

48:45

employees for CVS at the end of

48:47

the day, or equivalent here in Canada.

48:50

So stuff doesn't work, but they were

48:52

good tries. You invest time in it.

48:54

You invest energy. You go back and

48:56

say, what would we have done differently?

48:58

And you kind of move on. And

49:00

I think you just have to kind

49:02

of say, hey, not having

49:04

works. Let's learn something from it. And often

49:06

you do learn something and you just pivot

49:08

to something else and say, well, if the

49:10

product looked like this, maybe it would have

49:12

worked better. And just

49:14

never be afraid of those moments. You

49:16

mentioned earlier that you made a

49:19

big acquisition three or four months into

49:21

your tenure as CEO. You know, how'd

49:24

you muster up the courage to do

49:26

that? I mean, you definitely weren't playing

49:28

it safe. Yeah, I think the investors

49:30

said, who is this guy? Three months in,

49:32

he makes the largest acquisition in RBC's

49:34

history. Part of the story is I've been

49:36

thinking about it for two years. I

49:39

had the chance to talk to the

49:41

board about it for two years, about

49:43

the strategy. We had a Southeast regional banking

49:45

operation in North Carolina. We sold that

49:47

before I became CEO. I always

49:49

felt it was so important that we

49:51

had to have a commercial banking operation

49:53

in the United States and private banking.

49:55

So I was anxious to re -enter the

49:57

U .S. with a different strategy. Even

50:00

though I was running Canada, I wasn't even running

50:02

the U .S. I didn't know I

50:04

was going to be CEO. I believed

50:06

for the benefit of RBC, I should work

50:08

on this and think about it. And

50:10

if I'm CEO, I can execute it. If

50:12

I'm not, then whoever is will do

50:14

it. So I was given the freedom to

50:16

work and think and talk to some

50:18

potential acquisition targets. And I worked on one

50:21

that I thought I was going to

50:23

do a deal with. Decided

50:25

not to, but got to know

50:27

Russell Goldsmith and the Goldsmith family

50:29

as well as another opportunity. So

50:31

I was thinking about it. And

50:33

we went pens down a number

50:36

of times through that process. So honestly,

50:38

when I got there, I became

50:40

CEO. We were pens down at that

50:42

point. And I had to think,

50:44

okay, I can make this happen now.

50:46

It's within my bailiwick to do

50:48

that. But I had a number of

50:50

people on my team that weren't

50:52

sure it was the right thing. I

50:54

had to convince them to do that.

50:56

So it was a pretty bold move

50:58

three months in because, you know, you

51:00

don't know the job that well. You're

51:02

learning the job. You're trying to manage

51:04

all these stakeholders. You really want to

51:06

take on an acquisition at that point,

51:08

your largest acquisition. And

51:10

my instinct was, don't wait. You've

51:12

got an interested party. They

51:15

fit the strategic framework that you're

51:17

trying to do. They're culturally

51:19

aligned to you. You've

51:21

got a couple of banks that are in

51:23

trouble in the U .S. that would want to

51:25

buy this that probably aren't able to right now.

51:28

You got to get it done, even though

51:30

it's a heavy lift in your early tenure.

51:32

So it put a fair amount of stress

51:34

on me to, as I was learning the job

51:36

of being a CEO, as you know, that

51:38

first year is tough to do this three

51:40

months in at the end of the day.

51:42

But I'm really happy I did in hindsight.

51:44

And Dave, this has been so much fun.

51:46

I want to have a little bit more

51:48

fun with you here and do my lightning

51:50

round of questions. Are you ready for this? Okay.

51:53

All right. The three words that best describe you. I

51:55

think we covered one of them, right? Competitive.

52:00

Besides competitive. I'll let you

52:02

give me two more. I'm

52:04

incredibly curious. Curious, driven, competitive.

52:06

There we go. If you could be one person

52:08

for a day beside yourself, who would it

52:11

be? Lead guitarist for Pearl Jam. Who would play

52:13

you in a movie? People think I look

52:15

like Steve Martin. So I guess it would have

52:17

to be Steve Martin. So people come up

52:19

to me in restaurants. Are you Steve Martin? No,

52:21

I'm not Steve Martin. So

52:23

Steve Martin would have to play. Do

52:26

you speak French? And if so, please

52:28

answer in French. Is

52:31

it pronounced

52:33

about or

52:35

about? About,

52:37

yeah. Depending

52:39

on how many beers you have. What's

52:43

a Canadian saying or phrase that

52:45

you use that Americans never understand? We

52:48

use A a lot. What's the

52:50

one thing you do just for you?

52:52

Playing guitar really loud in the

52:54

man cave. Your most prized possession? 57

52:56

Les Paul. Or, you

52:58

know, my uncle was a policeman of

53:00

Montreal. And at the end of

53:02

his career, he was assigned to the

53:04

Montreal Forum. It was where the

53:06

Montreal Canadiens play, a great hockey team.

53:08

In 1972, after they won the

53:10

Stanley Cup, he passed a hockey stick

53:13

through a locker room for all

53:15

these great, great famous Hall of Fame

53:17

hockey players. And they all signed

53:19

it and he gave it to me

53:21

for my birthday. So that's pretty

53:23

cool. Oh, great gift. If I turned

53:25

on the radio in your car,

53:27

what would I hear? Sirius XM Pearl

53:29

Jam. That's A22. What's

53:32

something about you few people would

53:34

know? They wouldn't know I've been

53:36

to see Pearl Jam 35 times.

53:38

What's one of your daily rituals,

53:40

something that you never miss? Thanks

53:42

to my wife, I have this

53:44

green drink that's pretty awful every

53:46

morning called AG1. Let's say she

53:48

wants too much Huberman Labs. So

53:51

yeah, pretty much a ritual

53:53

with vitamin D keeps the doctor

53:55

happy as well. So AG1

53:57

every morning. You look

53:59

very healthy, Dave. She's doing a

54:01

good job. And that's the end

54:03

of the lightning round. And

54:05

good job on the lightning round. Now,

54:07

I got a few more questions. I'm

54:09

to let you go because I know

54:12

you got things moving ahead here. So,

54:14

you know, such a celebrated career. And

54:16

going forward, Dave, what do you see

54:18

as your unfinished business? As you know,

54:20

in big companies, always internal unfinished business.

54:22

But for me, it's also continuing to

54:24

work with youth in the country. big

54:26

proponent of helping youth find their way

54:28

in this complex world, getting them their

54:30

first job, getting them the training and

54:32

the skills that they need. Our universities

54:35

and education institutions are in a bit

54:37

of a crisis on both sides of

54:39

the border, but certainly in Canada. And

54:41

my unfinished business is, know,

54:44

it's good for the organization because

54:46

that's the source of talent for the

54:48

bank, but there's a lot of work

54:50

to do with our educational institutions and

54:52

getting us back to kind of

54:54

the place that's going to, allow us

54:56

to compete and be prosperous as a

54:59

North America, including United States. It's a

55:01

challenge. So for both sides, I think

55:03

there's a lot of work to do.

55:05

And I'm really excited about it. And

55:07

the technology that's coming here, we haven't

55:09

talked about generative AI at all. It's

55:11

super exciting. It's going to change business

55:14

models. We're going to rewire a

55:16

lot of things with this. We are

55:18

well on our way to deploying these

55:20

technologies today. And it

55:22

makes the journey a lot of fun. Last

55:24

question. What's one piece of advice you'd give

55:26

to anyone who wants to be a better

55:28

leader? When I look at leaders and where

55:30

they are, and even though I talk to

55:32

CEOs, you don't have to fill the air

55:34

with everything you got to say. When you're

55:36

talking, you're not learning at the end of

55:38

the day. So when I look at a

55:40

CEO, there's a lot of tells, as you

55:42

know. One of the first tells is, did

55:45

they ask you a question? Did they listen? Or

55:47

are they just in broadcast mode? So

55:50

leadership is about learning and listening

55:52

and reflecting. and choosing your spots.

55:54

It's not about sucking all the

55:56

air of the room

55:58

because you don't have all the

56:00

answers and you need to get

56:02

the answers. So leadership's about getting

56:04

the answers and making the right

56:06

decisions, not having the answers at

56:08

the end of the day. It's

56:10

about building a vision and getting

56:12

people aligned to it and rewarding

56:14

them and taking a hit if

56:16

it doesn't work. So from that

56:19

perspective, I really think, and take

56:21

risks. take risks

56:23

and have fun with it. It's a journey

56:25

you're on. You only get one chance to

56:27

do this journey. Playing it safe

56:29

is so dull the other day and

56:31

it's not going to work. The

56:33

last thing I say, dream. I

56:36

think really only the dreamers are going to

56:38

win at the end of the day. I

56:40

consider myself a dreamer because there's so many

56:42

things you can do in this world now

56:44

with tech. There's so much information out there.

56:46

There's so many levers to pull. Don't

56:49

be afraid to dream. The dreamers are

56:51

going to win. Well, that's great advice.

56:53

And, you know, I knew I was

56:55

going to enjoy this conversation, but I'm,

56:57

you know, there's a reason why you've

56:59

had so much success. And I want

57:01

to thank you for sharing all your

57:03

insights. This conversation is chock full of

57:05

great leadership insights. And I appreciate you

57:07

taking the time to share them with

57:09

us. Thank you very much. I really

57:11

appreciate the opportunity. And I've been looking

57:13

forward to this. So thanks for the

57:15

opportunity. I

57:22

love how clearly and confidently Dave

57:24

talks about big goals. He doesn't just

57:26

think about the future. He brings

57:28

people into it. I see a lot

57:30

of leaders who set big visionary

57:32

goals and then they keep quiet about

57:35

them. And it's understandable because putting

57:37

your goals out there means putting yourself

57:39

out there. But when you go

57:41

public with a big goal, everything shifts.

57:43

You create alignment, you build trust,

57:45

and you attract people who want to

57:48

help you make it happen. Do

57:50

that, and you won't just move your

57:52

projects forward, you'll move your career forward

57:54

too. So this week, ask yourself, what's

57:56

a big, bold goal you believe in,

57:58

but haven't said it out loud to

58:00

your team yet? Reflect on

58:02

what that is and why you're holding

58:04

back. No one gets

58:06

up every day wanting to be part

58:08

of something mediocre. Go for greatness,

58:10

set big goals, and make sure everyone

58:12

on the team knows they are

58:15

key to making it happen. So do

58:17

you want to know how leaders

58:19

lead? What we learned today is that

58:21

great leaders go public with their

58:23

big goals. Coming up next on How

58:25

Leaders Lead, I'm talking with renowned

58:27

media executive Mark Shapiro. He's the president

58:29

and managing partner of WME Group.

58:31

And he's the president and chief operating

58:33

officer of TKO, the parent company

58:35

of both UFC, that ultimate fighting championship,

58:38

and WWE. World Wrestling Entertainment.

58:40

It's an eat what you kill

58:42

world, right? People have to deliver.

58:44

Now, they need to know the

58:46

expectations. They need clear feedback. They

58:48

need performance reviews. They need resources

58:50

and tools, right? They need help

58:52

getting there. But as long as

58:54

everyone understands up front what we're

58:56

aiming for, what the measure and

58:58

the metrics of success are, then

59:00

it's full throttle to get there.

59:02

And if you get there, everyone

59:04

wins. So be sure to subscribe

59:06

to YouTube or wherever you get

59:08

your podcasts so you don't miss

59:10

it. Thanks again for tuning in

59:12

to another episode of How Leaders Lead, where

59:14

every Thursday you get to listen in while I

59:16

interview some of the very best leaders in

59:18

the world. I make it a point to give

59:21

you something simple on each episode that you

59:23

can apply to your business so that you'll become

59:25

the best leader you can be.