0:00

It's an eat what you kill

0:02

world, right? People have to deliver.

0:04

Now, they need to know the

0:06

expectations, they need clear feedback, they

0:08

need performance reviews, they need resources

0:10

and tools, right? They need help

0:12

getting there, but as long as

0:14

everyone understands up front what we're

0:17

aiming for, what the measure and

0:19

the metrics of success are, then it's

0:21

full throttle to get there. And if

0:23

you get there, everyone wins. We

0:33

all want better results, but a lot

0:35

of leaders skip the most important

0:37

step to getting them. Welcome to

0:39

how leaders lead. I'm David Novak and

0:41

every week I have conversations with the

0:43

very best leaders in the world to

0:46

help you become the best leader that

0:48

you can be. My guest today is

0:50

Mark Shapiro, one of the top minds

0:52

in media and entertainment. He's the

0:54

president and managing partner of

0:57

WME Group. Plus, the president

0:59

and C-O-O-O-T-K-O, which owns top

1:01

sports brands like UFC and

1:03

W-W-E. And prior to all that,

1:05

he was the creative force

1:07

that helped make ESP-N the powerhouse

1:10

that it is today. Now look,

1:12

you don't carve out a career

1:14

like that unless you know how

1:16

to get results. And as you'll

1:18

see today, Mark delivers those

1:21

big results in part

1:23

because he sets clear

1:25

expectations. If you want to

1:27

create a results-driven culture,

1:29

and let's be honest, who

1:31

doesn't? Keep watching and see how

1:34

it's done. And I gotta

1:36

tell you, this episode is

1:38

packed with great stories, including

1:40

how Pardon the Interruption got

1:42

its start at ESPN and

1:44

a real face-palm moment for

1:47

Mark at Six Flags. So

1:49

here's my conversation with my

1:52

good friend and soon-to-be yours,

1:54

Mark Shapiro. I

2:03

want to dive into how you're leading

2:05

your two incredible companies. But first I

2:07

want to learn more about your story

2:10

and find out what really makes you

2:12

tick. And I want to take you

2:14

all the way back to the beginning,

2:16

Mark. What's a story from your childhood

2:18

that shaped the kind of leader you

2:20

are today? Well, let's start from the

2:22

fact, or excuse me, start with the

2:24

fact that my parents were separated when

2:26

I wasn't even like one years old.

2:29

That's not a good start right there

2:31

right and my parents got divorced early

2:33

on and my two older sisters and

2:35

myself went to live with my dad

2:37

and ultimately he got remarried and that's

2:39

usually not the case back in the

2:41

70s right I mean everybody kind of

2:43

for the most part stayed with their

2:46

mom moms not a ton of moms

2:48

were working in those days and my

2:50

mom had a full-time job she was

2:52

a teacher and and in the downtown

2:54

Chicago and we were kind of left

2:56

by ourselves a lot and ultimately the

2:58

decision was made that we were going

3:00

to go live with my dad and

3:02

my stepmom full-time. And that was that

3:05

was tough, but you know you need

3:07

adversity, right, to get going in life

3:09

and I got it right out of

3:11

the gate. Now it sounds like it

3:13

and you know speaking of adversity and

3:15

a little bit of pain, you've got

3:17

deep Chicago roots and you know as

3:19

a lifelong Chicago Bears fan, you know,

3:22

what's that taught you about persistence and

3:24

working through the adversity? By the way,

3:26

that is exactly what it taught me.

3:28

I bleed cubby blue. So I grew

3:30

up a massive Chicago Cubs fan and

3:32

a massive Chicago Bears fan. And all

3:35

it was is, I mean, the Cubs

3:37

are the lovable losers, right? You went

3:39

to a Cubs game to see Wrigley

3:41

Field, not to see them win. So

3:43

to go your whole life, just praying

3:45

for a playoff game, let alone a

3:47

World Series, that was a long wait.

3:50

I finally got a World Series in

3:52

2016, after 100 plus years of the

3:54

Cubs never winning a World Series. But

3:56

you keep rooting and you keep cheering

3:58

and just like I taught my kids.

4:00

and I made them Cubs fans like

4:03

then the payoff means that much more.

4:05

Same with the Bears. Walter Payton was

4:07

the best running back ever in my

4:09

book. I named my dog after him,

4:11

Peyton, and I'm all about the Bears

4:13

and for the first 15 years of

4:15

my life the Bears lose every single

4:18

year. And then finally in 1985 with

4:20

refrigerator Perry and Jim McMahon and the

4:22

Super Bowl shuffle, we got that Super

4:24

Bowl victory. So the payoff's always so

4:26

incredible when you forever are... cheering and

4:28

desperately hoping for a win. So you're

4:30

a hell of a motivational leader, no

4:33

question about it. You can see it

4:35

right here as we're talking. So you

4:37

take over the bears. They got a

4:39

losing culture. There's no question about it.

4:41

If you're going to turn a losing

4:43

culture into a winning culture, what would

4:46

you do? Look, the first thing you're

4:48

going to do when you're going to

4:50

take over any company is you're going

4:52

to go on a listening tour, because

4:54

you don't know. You don't know who's

4:56

good. You don't know where the bodies

4:58

are buried. You don't know where the

5:01

real issues are. You don't have a

5:03

full grasp of strengths and weaknesses. You

5:05

don't really understand fully the challenges. You

5:07

understand it from the cheap seats. You

5:09

understand it from the outside. You understand

5:11

it from the gossip and the information

5:13

that's being spread around social or by

5:16

word of mouth. You need to get

5:18

in there and get your hands dirty.

5:20

Frankly, when I took over six flags,

5:22

that's what it was all about. Six

5:24

flags was on the verge of bankruptcy.

5:26

The question most investors asked me on

5:29

day one is, when are you going

5:31

to put it into a bankruptcy? For

5:33

me, it was about, hey, listen, let's

5:35

turn around the operation, right? Let's turn

5:37

around the culture. Let's turn around the

5:39

product. Let's bring this product back to

5:41

moms who will be investing six flags

5:44

in the bigger than Disneyland, but closer

5:46

to home mentality. We have work to

5:48

do on the operation on the operation

5:50

on the operation before we. ever talk

5:52

about getting rid of any legacy debt.

5:54

Part of those lessons and part of

5:57

my learnings were really getting around to

5:59

as many of those parks, whether it

6:01

was in Canada or Mexico or every

6:03

one of the states, and meeting with

6:05

the people. the GMs, the leadership teams,

6:07

even the people on the front lines,

6:09

security officers, ticket takers, those that were

6:12

working the games, you know, where somebody

6:14

pays two dollars to throw the ball

6:16

and try and knock over the bottles.

6:18

Like to really understand the product and

6:20

the issues and the challenges and the

6:22

turnaround strategy to formulate that, you have

6:24

to get your hands in and you

6:27

have to do a lot of listening.

6:29

So listening to us first, and if

6:31

I took over the bears or anything

6:33

else, I would first get in there

6:35

and listen to better understand. the totality

6:37

of what I was dealing with before

6:40

putting in a plan for the turnaround.

6:42

That makes so much sense. You know,

6:44

you've learned all about leadership in this

6:46

incredible career that you have had in

6:48

just the whole sports, media, entertainment world.

6:50

You know, when did you get the

6:52

idea, Mark, that this is what you

6:55

wanted to do? David, I was lucky.

6:57

I went, I grew up in Glenview,

6:59

Illinois, a suburb of Chicago and our

7:01

high school. had its own TV production

7:03

department. Like, good facilities, good equipment. And

7:05

what they did was they programmed the

7:07

local cable access channels. So back in

7:10

the day when cable meant everything, every

7:12

town, as you know, had a local

7:14

cable access channel. And most of the

7:16

time they put information you needed to

7:18

know up there or emergency alerts or

7:20

a lot of times just color bars,

7:23

frankly. But my high school actually programmed

7:25

the channel magazine shows. football games. I

7:27

mean today every high school airs their

7:29

football games, basketball games, so many of

7:31

them on their local cable access channel

7:33

or they stream it. Back in that

7:35

day no one did that. So my

7:38

high school was way ahead of the

7:40

time and I took an intro to

7:42

TV class my sophomore year and I

7:44

knew right then the rest of my

7:46

life I wanted to be in sports

7:48

broadcasting and journalism. That's fantastic. And I

7:51

got to ask you about what I

7:53

think, and I may be wrong on

7:55

this, but I think your first big

7:57

break, it came from some unknown talent.

7:59

I think his name was Bob Costas.

8:01

Could you share that story? Look, I

8:03

went to school at the University of

8:06

Iowa. It was a big school, big

8:08

10 school, 30,000 kids, not too far

8:10

from home, about four hours away from

8:12

Chicago. And I went there for broadcast

8:14

journalism. They were very good at it.

8:16

Big time sports programs, very good at

8:18

it. And the number one creative writing

8:21

school in the country. I mean, it

8:23

is a writing university. That's what they're

8:25

known for. And. I knew once I

8:27

got in there, I started taking classes

8:29

and got into the program and the

8:31

curriculum. You know what David? GPA is

8:34

important, right? Resime is more important, especially

8:36

in this line of work. I needed

8:38

experience. You can't even get a job

8:40

without experience, yet you got to get

8:42

a job. How do you do that?

8:44

And how many guys? I mean, I

8:46

was ahead of my fraternity. How many

8:49

guys in that fraternity? wanted to be

8:51

involved in sports broadcasting or journalism, wanted

8:53

to work for a team, wanted to

8:55

work for ABC sports, wanted to work

8:57

for ESPN, whatever it might be. The

8:59

competition is significant. You can't even accurately

9:01

describe it. Everybody wants in on that.

9:04

So to stand out, it's experience and

9:06

its relationships. And I applied for an

9:08

internship in New York City to be

9:10

an intern for NBC sports. And they

9:12

were hiring three positions. It was my

9:14

sophomore year in college, one full-time job,

9:17

and two part-time jobs. And I thought

9:19

to myself, David, you know, how many

9:21

folks are going to apply for this?

9:23

What's the chances that I'm going to

9:25

get? I know nobody. I have no

9:27

in. This is a time you didn't

9:29

get paid. This is a time you

9:32

didn't get paid for interns. You were

9:34

lucky if you got credits. And it

9:36

was in New York City. And I

9:38

said to my step mom, who was

9:40

a flight attendant, who was a flight

9:42

attendant. I could close this thing. I

9:45

had that confidence that I'm going to

9:47

get this done, but I have to

9:49

get in there. So I called NBC,

9:51

I got connected to HR, and I

9:53

asked them, told them, excuse me, that

9:55

I was going to be in New

9:57

York City for some other reason, but

10:00

is there any chance I could come?

10:02

them. I mean, total lie. I wasn't

10:04

going to be there. I was coming

10:06

just for that. I suited up. I

10:08

walked into 30 Rock. I got the

10:10

interview. She then walked me around NBC

10:12

sports and, you know, lo and behold,

10:15

I got the job. And part of

10:17

that internship was working out a lot

10:19

of events that their number one talent

10:21

hosted, which was Bob Dostis. A fantastic

10:23

story. Good thing your mom was a

10:25

flight attendant. Right? How about that? We

10:28

have five kids in my family, okay?

10:30

And a divorced childhood and a lot

10:32

of payments to make. There was no

10:34

like, yeah, we'll buy you a plane

10:36

ticket. You wouldn't stand by David and

10:38

you had to wear a suit to

10:40

get on. But you know what? I

10:43

was willing to wear, I was willing

10:45

to go buck naked to get that

10:47

interview. And then you get your foot

10:49

in the door as the production assistant

10:51

at ESP. You know, when you got

10:53

that job, what was your mindset? I

10:56

mean, what did you think you needed

10:58

to do to really separate yourself? Because

11:00

now you're in, you want to get

11:02

attention, right? Keep in mind, for the

11:04

rest of college, David, I worked for

11:06

NBC on different events. So by the

11:08

time I graduated, I had done Wimbledon,

11:11

I had done the Olympics in Barcelona,

11:13

I had done a whole bunch of

11:15

NFL games and worked across many different

11:17

events that NBC sports had. And for

11:19

those that are listening here. Remember back

11:21

in the day, NBC, ABC, and CBS,

11:23

that's where it was at. It wasn't

11:26

even Fox yet. And so I had

11:28

a lot of experience. And now I'm

11:30

coming out of college and I have

11:32

an opportunity to go work for NBC

11:34

full-time in New York. But I didn't

11:36

want to go to New York for

11:39

whatever reason I didn't want to be

11:41

in New York City. I was a

11:43

Chicago guy, even though there was no

11:45

network in Chicago. And the producer that

11:47

I work for, his name is David

11:49

Michaels. Why don't you move out to

11:51

LA? I'm based in LA. You can

11:54

keep working all my events. Freelance. Incredible.

11:56

Great, I'll do that. And I went

11:58

out there and I started doing that.

12:00

And out of nowhere I get a

12:02

call from ESPN. And they said, you

12:04

know, we're going to be launching a

12:06

new network. It's called ESPN2. We've got

12:09

your name from some folks. We hear

12:11

you're a real. and we would like

12:13

to talk to you about a position.

12:15

Where's it based? In LA. Fantastic. I

12:17

go to the meeting and he promptly

12:19

tells me it's a step back from

12:22

what I was doing to your point.

12:24

It's a production assistant. It's a six-month

12:26

gig and you're going to get paid

12:28

$20,000. Of course, you have to amortize

12:30

that. 10,000 for six months and no

12:32

guarantee of a job after six months,

12:34

but you get overtime. And I was

12:37

making a lot more freelancinging. Why are

12:39

we getting six months ago? We don't

12:41

even know if ESPN 2 is going

12:43

to work. It's only in 16 million

12:45

homes at launch. It may not work.

12:47

So we may not have a network.

12:50

That's all we can commit to. And

12:52

I went back to my dad and

12:54

said, this is crazy. They heard about

12:56

me. I was so excited. This big

12:58

job. I go in there. It's a

13:00

step back. It's no money. No guarantee.

13:02

Like my dad said to me in

13:05

terms of good advice. He said, how

13:07

long. How long do you think it'll

13:09

take you think it'll take you think

13:11

it'll take you think it'll take you

13:13

think it'll take you to be a

13:15

producer at a producer at a producer

13:17

at NBC? Dad, there's no turnover. These

13:20

are the best jobs in the business.

13:22

Ten years. How long do you think

13:24

it'll take you to be a producer

13:26

at ESPN? Cable, it's new, six years,

13:28

cable's the future, take that job. And

13:30

I did it, David. And by the

13:33

way, they fired the producer of the

13:35

show six months into the job and

13:37

made me the youngest producer ever at

13:39

ESPN. And speaking to being young, you

13:41

end up becoming the general manager of

13:43

ESPN classic. And I believe you were...

13:45

26 years old when that happened. How

13:48

did you navigate working with people that

13:50

had to be 20 years older than

13:52

you? A lot older than you. That's

13:54

the kind of pressure you have when

13:56

you're a young leader like that is

13:58

intense when you have people are older

14:00

than you that you need to lead

14:03

and manage. How did you work through

14:05

that? David, that's where you get your

14:07

best learning lessons when it comes to

14:09

leadership. That was a miserable experience to

14:11

be honest with you. I'm glad you're

14:13

honest because it is for everybody. I

14:16

got put into that job and now

14:18

everybody that entered even the folks that

14:20

interviewed me for that production assistant temporary

14:22

job at ESPN too. We're now reporting.

14:24

to me. Right? Ultimately, that's where it

14:26

ended up. I was a classic and

14:28

then I ended up taking over all

14:31

the programming and then I was running

14:33

ESPN, you know, at a right by

14:35

age of, I don't know, 30 years

14:37

old. And again, everybody's pointing fingers, everybody's

14:39

yapping. You all of a sudden have

14:41

all these enemies out of just petty

14:44

jealousy, right? Or they're threatened or they

14:46

think the boss has made a bad

14:48

decision or they're betting the farm on

14:50

me and it. You have to carry

14:52

yourself with integrity. You have to be

14:54

a good listener. You have to show

14:56

people that you care, that you don't

14:59

know everything. You have to build a

15:01

great team around you. You have to

15:03

make sure you're listening to the on-air

15:05

talent as well as the production folks

15:07

about what they're dealing with on a

15:09

day-to-day basis. What are the challenges in

15:11

getting ESBNN to full penetration at 900

15:14

million homes and becoming the profit generator

15:16

that it ultimately became? It takes patience.

15:18

And it takes a lot of humility.

15:20

And that's what I did for the

15:22

first three months. I did nothing. But

15:24

interview people, full suit, one-on-ones, and take

15:27

notes. Before I ever could come out

15:29

with my platform, my plan of attack,

15:31

our collective strategy, our priorities as it

15:33

relates to how to win. as you

15:35

mentioned you became a head of programming

15:37

for for ESBN and you're in an

15:39

eyeball attention you've got to build the

15:42

ratings kind of business you know when

15:44

you think about the intensity that you

15:46

put into that as as an objective

15:48

and you know leaders themselves have to

15:50

have to draw attention to to their

15:52

their brands and their companies and to

15:54

themselves. What advice would you give somebody

15:57

on that front? On how to really

15:59

build attention for your company? Here's what

16:01

everyone has to know and anybody this

16:03

interviewing or any young person. There's always

16:05

going to be somebody that's smarter. There's

16:07

always going to be somebody that has

16:10

a better mouse trap or better experience

16:12

or better resume. But what you control

16:14

is the way you carry yourself, your

16:16

attitude, your energy, your honesty, your directness,

16:18

your courage, your work ethic, your passion

16:20

for what you do. No one can

16:22

outpassion you if you really believe in

16:25

something. No one can outwork you. if

16:27

you're willing to put on the hours

16:29

and make the sacrifices. So whether it

16:31

was getting the highhead job or the

16:33

first production assistance job, the way I've

16:35

always approached any job is you're not

16:38

going to outwork me. It's not a

16:40

badge of honor, but these jobs or

16:42

succeeding take hard work. They take grind.

16:44

And you have to be willing to

16:46

put that in. No questions asked. And

16:48

today, especially in this world, all the

16:50

choices, all the fragmentation, work from home,

16:53

frankly the entitlement. It's harder, I'm not

16:55

going to say hard, but it's harder

16:57

to find people coming out of college

16:59

that understand they have to put it

17:01

in like never before, especially with all

17:03

the competitive balance and choices that are

17:05

out there in order to stand out.

17:08

And if you do that, you will

17:10

find that people will appreciate that, they

17:12

will respect you, that will get in

17:14

line with you, they will work for

17:16

you. They might even be inspired by

17:18

you if you do it right. And

17:21

when you have that, David, then there

17:23

is no limit to what you can

17:25

accomplish in terms of positioning or success

17:27

or milestone. Hi everyone. It's Kula from

17:29

Hal Leader's Lead. And if you're seeing

17:31

my face right now, it means you're

17:33

watching this interview on YouTube. I want

17:36

to say thanks for watching it on

17:38

YouTube. And if you love the show...

17:40

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18:12

to the channel, let us know if

18:14

you love one of the shows, and

18:16

thank you so much for listening. You're

18:19

such a creative guy, and you've created

18:21

incredible content over the years, and you

18:23

continue to do it. And one of

18:25

the things that I learned that you

18:27

created, I didn't know it. I watched

18:29

a show a lot on ESV. It

18:32

is. Pardon the interruption, you know, and

18:34

that was your brain child. And that's

18:36

been going on for 25 years. You

18:38

know, what was the, what was the

18:40

biggest challenge putting that show together? Was

18:42

that just a no-brainer? No, not at

18:44

all. Look, I was, I was producing

18:47

a documentary series called Sports Century, which

18:49

was ESPN's look back on the 100

18:51

years in sports, right? In the year

18:53

2000, when everyone was doing the best,

18:55

this, the best this, this, this, the

18:57

century. And they were doing sports, putting

18:59

in context, putting in perspective, the athletes,

19:02

the stories, the social impact, you name

19:04

it. And that project was wrapping up.

19:06

And I was working out in my

19:08

basement and I was watching crossfire on

19:10

CNN. Remember that show? Yeah. And I

19:12

thought to myself, we don't have enough

19:15

debate at ESPN. Now we have too

19:17

much. I don't want to be blamed

19:19

for all that, but we don't have

19:21

enough debate. We don't have enough talk.

19:23

What is sports, David? It's debate. It's

19:25

argument. Why the proliferation of sports radio

19:27

all these decades? Because people can't get

19:30

enough of talking about, how are the

19:32

bearers going to turn it around? How

19:34

are they going to win? Who should

19:36

they get rid of? Who should they

19:38

sign? Is the head coach any good?

19:40

Are they spending their money wisely? Do

19:43

they care about the fans? On and

19:45

on and on. People just, they can't

19:47

get enough of that. And I thought

19:49

to myself, we're good at journalism. We're

19:51

good at journalism. is appointment viewing back

19:53

in a day when there used to

19:55

be appointment viewing. What we don't have

19:58

enough of is debate. And we need

20:00

a show like this. And so I

20:02

put an eclectic... of people together from

20:04

across the company and outside the company.

20:06

Sports fans, but outside the company. And

20:08

I put them in a room, and

20:10

I said, here's the only two things

20:13

I know. We do a half-hour show.

20:15

Here are the two guys I know.

20:17

Here are the two things I know.

20:19

We can do a half-hour show. Here

20:21

are the two guys that are going

20:23

to host it. Tony Cornizer and Michael

20:26

Wilbine. Oh, you got them? No, I'm

20:28

going to sell that argument later. Now

20:30

let's talk about the format. because any

20:32

hit show David is predicated on format

20:34

or talent. Either one can get you

20:36

a hit show. If you have both,

20:38

well then you get a 25 year

20:41

winter like pardon the interruption. And they

20:43

went to bad on all this stuff,

20:45

throwing stuff against the wall, what works,

20:47

all these different devices to spur conversation

20:49

and debate. Tony and Mike had been

20:51

arguing as reporters of the Washington Post

20:53

in the newsroom for years. So it

20:56

became natural for them to... argue with

20:58

each other and we started doing rehearsals,

21:00

we put it together and it really

21:02

stuck. And I'll tell you David, when

21:04

I pitched the show to ESPN, because

21:06

remember I wasn't running the place, when

21:09

I pitched the show, they never even

21:11

got back to me. You want to

21:13

talk about a way as a leader

21:15

to squash creativity, to actually destroy culture,

21:17

is not respond when someone goes out

21:19

of their way to create a new

21:21

idea that they think would be great

21:24

for the company to move it forward.

21:26

Just say no, we don't want to

21:28

do it. No is the second best

21:30

answer. As opposed to not getting back

21:32

to somebody at all. And it sat

21:34

out there forever and finally I chased

21:37

down an executive, you know, I turned

21:39

this in six months ago, I've heard

21:41

nothing about the show, not one thing

21:43

about the show, not one thing, did

21:45

you guys hate it? You know, I

21:47

turned this in six months ago, I've

21:49

heard nothing about the show, not one

21:52

thing. Did you guys? Not one thing.

21:54

Why would anyone watch sports center? Rising

21:56

Tide lifts all boats. 530 will go

21:58

up. Sports Center at 6. clock will

22:00

go up in ratings, the game will

22:02

come on afterwards, all leading into the

22:04

11 o'clock sports center, which was our

22:07

flagship show. It'll raise our whole night.

22:09

And it was kind of like one

22:11

of those pat on the head, you're

22:13

young, you're eager, you're not know, we're

22:15

not doing it. And what happened was David,

22:17

I ultimately got the job to be the

22:20

boss, and then I just did it. That'll

22:22

work every time. One thing about you, Mark,

22:24

you are not a wallflower, okay? You know,

22:27

you know, you know, you know, you know,

22:29

you know, and so... What's your, what is

22:31

your process that you used to build conviction

22:33

like that? Because you know, that was a,

22:36

that's a great example of having conviction on

22:38

an idea. You have to do your homework.

22:40

You have to be informed, right? You have

22:43

to, you have to, you have to, you

22:45

have to listen, but you also have to

22:47

have instinct. And I think it's a combination,

22:50

Barry Diller told me long time ago, that

22:52

he used to make, and he's, I sat

22:54

on a live nation board with him for

22:56

them for years, and he said. It was right

22:58

here, it was my instinct. The flash dance,

23:00

that'll be a winning movie. You know, like,

23:02

this show will be a winning show. I

23:04

just was born with these natural gifts and

23:06

I go with instinct. And then I talked to

23:08

Jeff Zucker when I was potentially going

23:10

to go work at NBC News. And the Today Show

23:13

is number one, and Jeff is the guy that

23:15

responsible for that. I said, Jeff, how did you

23:17

do this? And he said, I'll tell you what.

23:19

I had a lot of ideas. I focus group

23:21

tested group tested them all. I focus group tested

23:23

them all. I focus group tested them

23:25

all. on 30 rocks, so you can see

23:27

in. People might line up. We might

23:30

do some concerts out there. I tested

23:32

that and we put it into play.

23:34

So, focus group, instinct. And that's what

23:36

I would tell you. When it comes

23:38

to decision-making, you need to do your

23:41

homework, you need to be informed, you

23:43

need to canvas people you respect, you

23:45

care about, you think bring good perspective,

23:47

right? Good opinion, informed opinion, and

23:49

have their fingers on the pulse of

23:52

culture, what's hot, what's not. And then

23:54

you have to collect your data, and

23:56

then you just have to go for it. And

23:58

you are going to have a lot. more failures

24:00

and a lot more misses than any

24:02

hits you're going to have. Across the

24:04

board, whether it's a show or it's

24:07

hiring people, David, you make mistakes all

24:09

day in hiring people. You don't know

24:11

what you don't know, but you can't

24:13

look back. You can't regret. You have

24:15

to move on. You have to stay

24:18

confident and you have to believe in

24:20

yourself. Speaking of failures, tell us a

24:22

story about, you know, a... a bet

24:24

that you made, a huge bet that

24:26

if it did fail, maybe it didn't

24:28

fail, but if it did fail, it

24:31

would hurt your reputation or you might

24:33

even got fired. Did you ever have

24:35

a story like that? I mean, countless.

24:37

You can do an entire hour on

24:39

just failures. And I'm not saying that

24:41

with any false humility. You don't work

24:44

for as long as I've worked and

24:46

all the different trades and spaces I

24:48

work. I fail every single day. constantly

24:50

new ideas new approaches new show a

24:52

deal I cut for some talent that

24:55

we represented didn't get enough didn't make

24:57

the cell wasn't good enough for the

24:59

advertiser turned away from us you have

25:01

to get over those hurdles but just

25:03

in terms of stories look too infamous

25:05

ones for me one was when I

25:08

took over six flags I learned quickly

25:10

that when you go into the theme

25:12

park right you can leave any time

25:14

I want and come back That doesn't

25:16

happen. If you go to an arena

25:18

stadium for a game, and you leave,

25:21

they always remind you, you can't come

25:23

back in, right? But it's six flags,

25:25

you can go in and out all

25:27

day. So I said, well, no wonder

25:29

our food and beverage is so low.

25:32

These people are leaving to go have

25:34

lunch, because it's very regional local, and

25:36

then they're going to come back and

25:38

not spend any money with us. And

25:40

immediately all the executives, Mark, I know

25:42

you knew you knew the boss, the

25:45

boss, but if you do that. You

25:47

don't need, our attendance is gonna get

25:49

crushed. I said, what are you talking

25:51

about? No, they're gonna, they're gonna, they're

25:53

gonna stay, they're gonna buy hamburgers with

25:55

us. And we're gonna raise the price

25:58

of hamburgers because we're gonna get Johnny

26:00

Rockets, and Johnny Rockets is a better

26:02

brand, and all our per caps are

26:04

gonna go up. Say no Mark. people

26:06

go out to their cars and they

26:09

bring bag lunches and then they eat.

26:11

I said, exactly, across all 32 parks,

26:13

no more in and out. David, our

26:15

attendance plummeted. Absolutely plummeted. All these people

26:17

that bought season passes. This is what

26:19

they do. $49 and I can go

26:22

in whenever I want and come back

26:24

in the day of and I can

26:26

eat. It doesn't cost me anything. I

26:28

just got a ticket for 50 bucks

26:30

for the entire year. I don't even

26:32

have to eat or drink there. And

26:35

I'm telling you, plumbing is 4,000. Like,

26:37

it was mass, like a 20% drop.

26:39

And quickly, I went back. Free lunch

26:41

is going to come on back. Come

26:43

on back. Come on, man. Get the

26:46

brown bags now. We can start to

26:48

give away brown bags. Exactly. Let's say

26:50

what else. And this is an infamous

26:52

one for me, SPM. But it's also

26:54

a big learning lesson. One of my

26:56

top studio executives comes to me and

26:59

says, hey, Mark. I got an idea

27:01

for our NFL morning show. It was

27:03

a lot of competition for the NFL.

27:05

This is the morning show before the

27:07

games on Sunday. And you're either watching

27:09

ESPN or Fox and good ad rates.

27:12

So you really want to drive those

27:14

ratings. And he says, we're going to

27:16

hire Rush Limbaugh. And I said, what

27:18

does he know about sports? He said,

27:20

Rush Limbaugh is a massive football fan.

27:23

Before fantasy was a big deal. He

27:25

actually knows his stuff. We brought him

27:27

in for an interview. He's terrific. By

27:29

the way. He's really good on air.

27:31

You know that his radio shows that

27:33

I mean, he was Joe Rogan when

27:36

there weren't a lot of Joe Rogan's

27:38

out there. And I said, all right,

27:40

well, I want to be clear. I

27:42

don't need to meet him. I don't

27:44

need to interview him. I trust you.

27:46

He cannot bring any of his social

27:49

views into the studio or on our

27:51

air. Like I know he's very right.

27:53

And I'm not saying that because on

27:55

left or center or right, I'm just

27:57

saying this is sports. to a broader

28:00

audience to fans that maybe don't watch

28:02

ESPN because of course he'll be talking

28:04

about it every day on his radio

28:06

show. Oh, on my ESPN football, we

28:08

have a chance to reach more fans

28:10

and bring in new audience. We'll do

28:13

it. But I want to make it

28:15

clear, out of bounds, anything outside of

28:17

sports. Oh, he understands. He understands. We

28:19

signed a big contract with him. First,

28:21

four or five weeks, our ratings spiked

28:23

11%. It was working. He was a

28:26

megaphone on radio and parlayed into being

28:28

a big winner for the show in

28:30

the show in the ratings. Now all

28:32

of the ratings. Which by the way

28:34

my head of human resources black female

28:37

warned me he couldn't help himself They

28:39

get into a discussion about Donovan McNabb

28:41

who's the black starting quarterback for the

28:43

Philadelphia Eagles as you know and I

28:45

don't know the exact line But it

28:47

was like an Al Campanist moment where

28:50

he basically said well, you know, he

28:52

doesn't have the faculties of a white

28:54

court something of that that that nature

28:56

which I mean just Forget it. He

28:58

stepped over line, he blew the doors

29:00

off, and I got destroyed. I mean,

29:03

forget about somebody brought me the idea.

29:05

That's what happens when you're the boss.

29:07

You get credit for things you don't

29:09

deserve the credit for, and you get

29:11

blame for things that maybe aren't all

29:14

your fault. It was my fault though.

29:16

I made the decision to green light

29:18

it. He stepped over the line. By

29:20

the way, I quickly fired him, but

29:22

it didn't matter. I got destroyed. And

29:24

it was one of those things, David,

29:27

were like the Wonder Boy, the young

29:29

kid, all the success, this age, running

29:31

his P&, see, he's in over his

29:33

skis. And those are such great learnings.

29:35

I love it. You know, when you

29:37

grow so quickly like you did, and

29:40

you are that wonderkin, and it doesn't

29:42

happen by accident, you got results. quarter

29:44

after quarter after quarter and you still

29:46

get results quarter after quarter how do

29:48

you drive as a leader a result

29:51

or in a culture pay for performance

29:53

let's start there you you have to

29:55

have a culture you have to have

29:57

a team that understands expectations very clear

30:00

This is the year ahead of us.

30:02

It's broken out into quarters. This is

30:04

what we're trying to accomplish. This is

30:07

what we meet our numbers to be.

30:09

These are our targets. These are our

30:11

stretch targets. These are our priorities. I've

30:13

listened to you. These are the resources

30:16

and tools I'm going to give you

30:18

to reach those targets, to reach those

30:20

expectations. And I'm going to be unapologetic

30:22

of it in terms of what we

30:25

expect. As long as you know the

30:27

expectations, and you know what you're signing

30:29

up for, I'm holding you too. And

30:31

I know this sounds harsh, David. You

30:34

won't be here. That's just what it

30:36

is. I mean, it's an eat what

30:38

you kill world, right? I mean, it's,

30:40

I don't need to tell you, you've

30:43

run massive companies. Yum, doesn't get bigger

30:45

than that. People have to deliver. Now,

30:47

they need to know the expectations. They

30:49

need clear feedback. They need performance reviews.

30:52

They need resources and tools. Right? They

30:54

need help getting there. Sometimes you have

30:56

to lean in and be more granular.

30:58

Other times you have to let them

31:01

run. But as long as everyone understands

31:03

up front what we're aiming for, what

31:05

the measure and the metrics of success

31:07

are, then it's full throttle to get

31:10

there. And if you get there, everyone

31:12

wins. Pay for performance. Bonus, stock, equity,

31:14

opportunity, whatever it might be. Promotion, title,

31:16

you name it. Flexibility, you name it.

31:19

Flexibility. the strength and conviction to live

31:21

by that both ways. I don't have

31:23

any problem delivering tough messages or bad

31:25

messages or letting someone go or putting

31:28

someone on performance review. That's part of

31:30

the job. That's not personal. It's business.

31:32

At the same time, I'll be the

31:34

first one to celebrate loudly when someone

31:37

succeeds, when someone accomplishes the task at

31:39

hand. We'll be back with my conversation

31:41

with Mark Shapiro in just a moment.

31:43

If you want to learn from another

31:46

leader who isn't afraid to set a

31:48

clear vision, listen to my conversation with

31:50

the chairman of Panera, Niren Shoddery. Niren

31:52

says that if you want to create

31:55

a motivated and optimistic team, you You've

31:57

got to begin with the envision in

31:59

mind. Begin with the end in mind.

32:01

Think of life as an unfinished painting.

32:04

And begin with the end in mind.

32:06

Envision what you want that painting to

32:08

look like. The colors, in all the

32:10

vivid details, the contours, the pin brush.

32:13

as vividly and as few years can

32:15

imagine it, because the more you can

32:17

begin with the end in mind and

32:19

what you want your life to look

32:22

like, the higher likelihood one has of

32:24

making that happen. Go back and listen

32:26

to my entire conversation with Nero, episode

32:28

30, here on How Leaders League. How

32:31

do you think about recognition and doling

32:33

out the credit? You said something that

32:35

I picked up which is, say it

32:37

loudly. What do you mean by that

32:40

and how do you do it? I

32:42

think some of it David has to

32:44

do with achieving some level of success

32:47

at a young age. I've always known

32:49

that I just don't know enough. I

32:51

know enough to know I don't know

32:53

enough. And things are changing and evolving

32:56

and maturing and falling in favor of

32:58

out of favor so quickly and we

33:00

have to... adaptive technology and changing trends

33:02

and dynamics and cultures and audience and

33:05

you have to have that that adaptability

33:07

to move with the changing time. So

33:09

it takes transparency, it takes communication, it

33:11

takes being able to say you're wrong,

33:14

it takes risks, right? Calculated risks. I'm

33:16

a big believer in calculated risk, not

33:18

just some wide ranging, you know, crazy,

33:20

let's be gunslingers. That's irresponsible. Knowing if

33:23

you don't know enough, you need great

33:25

people around you. And I spend a

33:27

lot of time recruiting great people, hiring

33:29

great people, letting go of great people

33:32

that maybe just didn't fit or it

33:34

wasn't working, but constantly giving feedback. I

33:36

don't wait till the end of the

33:38

year so you know where you stand

33:41

with me. You are getting regular feedback

33:43

in real time. So nothing's a surprise.

33:45

You're not leaving a room with me,

33:47

not knowing where you... or how I

33:50

felt about a certain decision that was

33:52

at hand. And I think that decisiveness,

33:54

that clarity, that conviction, is in many

33:56

ways a relief to people. Because even

33:59

if it's tough to hear or take

34:01

or the pressure is high, at least

34:03

they understand where they're marching. They understand

34:05

where we're trying to get to. And

34:08

by the way, anyone can self-select and

34:10

opt out at any time. I have

34:12

no problem with it. I'm hiring you

34:14

and I say, here's what it is,

34:17

here's what it is, here's the expectations,

34:19

here's the job, here's what we expect

34:21

of you, here's how we're going to

34:23

measure success, and then you come in

34:26

and half acid or don't follow or

34:28

the plan or we don't talk, we're

34:30

not keeping good communication, like, no, you

34:32

knew what was expected of you. And

34:35

if you didn't want to live up

34:37

that, that's okay, opt out. But don't

34:39

sit here and fake it, fake it.

34:41

But if you're in, we're in together.

34:44

And in together means sometimes I'm listening

34:46

and taking your route and sometimes or

34:48

more of the time since I'm the

34:50

boss, you're taking my route. But when

34:53

we walk out of a room, there

34:55

is nobody that thinks they're on separate

34:57

pages. And if I feel like someone

34:59

thinks our team is splintered, we have

35:02

problems. Yeah, makes a lot of sense.

35:04

And you know, one of the things

35:06

about you. Mark, you've evolved as the

35:08

media world has evolved and you're like

35:11

the king of amplification. You bring so

35:13

many different parts together to really blow

35:15

out whatever you happen to be be

35:17

working on. Tell us about the power

35:20

of your company, WME, and use Wimbledon

35:22

as an example, because I think that's

35:24

a great one. We do a lot

35:26

of business of Wimbledon. It's a, it's

35:29

a, they're a long term, storied and

35:31

valued institution, right. I mean, it's. been

35:33

around for decades and decades and Mark

35:36

McCormick signed Wimbledon at IMG, you know,

35:38

decades ago to help market sponsorship and

35:40

distribute. through media rights around the world

35:42

and that relationship which by the way

35:45

was signed on a cocktail napkin back

35:47

in the day and renewed many times

35:49

on a cocktail napkin over the years

35:51

that has stayed a I mean it's

35:54

just a perennial and Tiffany product and

35:56

partnership and we've grown the partnership over

35:58

the years whether it be hospitality whether

36:00

it be helping them with their global

36:03

partnerships whether it be information with regard

36:05

to ticketing and premium experiences, distributing Wimbledon,

36:07

not just in the US, but in

36:09

territories all over the world, tennis athletes,

36:12

the players themselves, that we represent at

36:14

IMG, which is, of course, is owned

36:16

by what was Endeavor, but now is

36:18

a big part of WME sports, broadcasters

36:21

that Call the actual competition in different

36:23

countries in different languages for a while

36:25

We did all their digital production like

36:27

we have found ways where a partner

36:30

came in through one door And we

36:32

we built trust and confidence and faith

36:34

and they measured us on results and

36:36

when we delivered on those results They

36:39

gave us more opportunities and now it's

36:41

turned into one of our biggest partnerships

36:43

and one of our most treasured Are

36:45

you a vision guy, Mark? And if

36:48

so, how do you think about the

36:50

vision that you have for WME today?

36:52

WME going forward, you know, as you

36:54

know, David, we've just taken it private.

36:57

And WME is really going back to

36:59

its roots, the WME group, as we

37:01

call it, which is representation. WME started

37:03

back in 1900. I mean, it's been

37:06

around quite a long time. And we

37:08

represent talent, brands. IP athletes, artists of

37:10

all walks, kinds, shapes, and sizes. Diversity

37:12

of programming, diversity of content, and diversity

37:15

of clients is instrumental to our success.

37:17

I mean, it's core to our success.

37:19

That's where that business is going to

37:21

go as a private company going forward.

37:24

We made a lot of acquisitions, Ari

37:26

Emanuel, and myself. Patrick White so obviously

37:28

was with at WME with RE in

37:30

the early days when they just just

37:33

got launched buying Endeavor when William Morris

37:35

and Endeavor merged and we made a

37:37

lot of acquisitions and we got into

37:39

a lot of different businesses and going

37:42

private we're selling some assets we've sold

37:44

some assets to DKO our sports assets

37:46

and WME going forward will focus pure

37:48

play on representation and I'm excited about

37:51

that's the roots that's the roots of

37:53

the company and that's your vision and

37:55

that's your vision and how important do

37:57

you think it is for a leader

38:00

to paint a leader to paint a

38:02

It's synonymous with leadership. A leader that

38:04

doesn't have vision isn't a leader. Do

38:06

you go into a corner office and

38:09

come out of that office with it

38:11

yourself? Or do you have a process

38:13

for it? How do you do it?

38:16

Because you are, you've always been a

38:18

big thinker. You've always kind of seen

38:20

the world where it's going. Look, you

38:22

have to have your own ideas, right?

38:25

You have to have your own dreams.

38:27

You have to imagine. And you have

38:29

to give yourself time and space to

38:31

imagine. If you're so in the grind

38:34

daily and you're so granular or you're

38:36

micromanaging, God forbid, then there's no time

38:38

to think about two years, three years,

38:40

five years. So we have a process

38:43

in place, we have a three-year plan,

38:45

we have a five-year plan, and of

38:47

course we measure quarter-to-quarter. But we incentivize,

38:49

we encourage, and we inspire our employees

38:52

at all levels to constantly be thinking

38:54

about new ideas, new solutions. new rows,

38:56

new ways of doing things. And we

38:58

listen and we follow up. So when

39:01

somebody says, and it's just a rule

39:03

I have in my company, and I'm

39:05

sure every CEO or president has that

39:07

rule, which is, I don't care who

39:10

you are or what level you're at.

39:12

Anybody who wants a cup of coffee

39:14

for 15 minutes, you get a cup

39:16

of coffee. Just scheduled my assistant. It

39:19

may not get scheduled, David, for a

39:21

couple months. You're on the road and

39:23

you're busy and all that. But there

39:25

is nobody that there's not a follow

39:28

up with. And in those 50 minutes,

39:30

you get to know each other for

39:32

a few minutes quickly, and then you

39:34

just hear most people walk in the

39:37

door with ideas, and those ideas, I'll

39:39

tell you, I'll give you a great

39:41

one, I'm at ESPN, and our head...

39:43

research her schedules of 15 minute coffee

39:46

with me and he's the head of

39:48

research his name is Howey Schwab and

39:50

he comes in and he just starts

39:52

rattling off all these stats and we

39:55

should be doing this and we should

39:57

be doing this and we need to

39:59

get a next-gen stats how how prescient

40:01

is that next-gen stats I mean that's

40:04

what all these games are about these

40:06

days and analytics and nobody even knew

40:08

what analytics was and he's going on

40:10

and on and on and on and

40:13

I just realized like it just kind

40:15

of hit me this guy this guy

40:17

is he's a genius like he's Like

40:19

he's a savant. He knows every stat

40:22

I can possibly think of and I

40:24

just said how he and if you've

40:26

seen him he's not his face is

40:28

not the face for television and God

40:31

rest his soul because he passed away

40:33

about a year. I said we should

40:35

do a show with you. What? That's

40:37

not what I came to talk about.

40:40

No, no, no. You're talking about how

40:42

we can make our stats better and

40:44

next-gen and it's just dawned on me

40:46

like I've probably never met anybody that

40:49

knows more about all these sports than

40:51

you. No, you're going to be in

40:53

the show. People are going to have

40:56

to test their wits against you in

40:58

this game show era. And we got

41:00

people in the room, they started throwing

41:02

ideas up, and next thing you know,

41:05

we launched a show called Stump the

41:07

Schwab. Hosted by the late great Stuart

41:09

Scott. And it was on ESPN2, and

41:11

it really became a huge cult favorite,

41:14

and Howie! like this recognizable star on

41:16

the street and the very idiosyncratic guy

41:18

and an unusual personality but an absolute

41:20

genius when it came to sports statistics

41:23

and that happened like you didn't come

41:25

to meet with me to pitch a

41:27

show but that's what came out of

41:29

it and by the way a very

41:32

profitable show. That's great and you know

41:34

so you in addition to running this

41:36

private company you're also leading TKO which

41:38

is a great public company and you've

41:41

got Great brands. I mean, you have

41:43

C, W, W, I mean, these fans

41:45

are maniacal. How do you see leveraging

41:47

that? I mean, You know, when you

41:50

have something as a leader that is

41:52

so real and you see it every

41:54

time you have an event, you know,

41:56

what goes on in a mind like

41:59

yours? First of all, how do we

42:01

build for the future, right? When you're

42:03

building, there's the business part, we're like,

42:05

how do we better monetize the business

42:08

so that we can grow the business,

42:10

so that we can expand the business,

42:12

so we can make the business or

42:14

the content better for the viewers? has

42:17

to do with marketing or positioning or

42:19

advertising the way we speak about it,

42:21

the quality of content that we bring

42:23

to the overall content proposition. You're thinking

42:26

critical commercial, critical commercial, brand business, and

42:28

that's the way our people around here

42:30

act. Vince McMahon started W.W. years ago.

42:32

So institutional knowledge, institutional following. Huge brand

42:35

equity of legions of followers over the

42:37

years and brand names from Holkogan to

42:39

Andre the giant that whether we were

42:41

a fan of WWW or not, if

42:44

you're a fan of culture, you knew

42:46

who they were. UFC, 30 plus years

42:48

ago, an idea, Dana White, pitching it,

42:50

pitching it, everybody saying it wouldn't catch

42:53

on. Boxing is the only thing that

42:55

matters. No one cares about MMA. It's

42:57

only an international sport. He gets an

42:59

investor in the Fertita Brothers. they put

43:02

some money in and then they lose

43:04

all that money and they start again

43:06

and all of a sudden it catches

43:08

and a big reality show the ultimate

43:11

fighter takes off on spike network and

43:13

now all of a sudden you know

43:15

it's one of the most premium properties

43:17

on ESPN and we got a lot

43:20

of other competitors now chasing to get

43:22

the UFC on that platform. I mean

43:24

you have to believe you have to

43:26

have to have conviction you have to

43:29

be able to stomach it and have

43:31

the stamina to stay in it but

43:33

at the same time David and you

43:35

know this better than anybody giving all

43:38

the products you launched in your stores,

43:40

you gotta know when to pull out

43:42

when something's not working too. Right? Oh,

43:45

I know that for sure. I love

43:47

it. And you think of yourself as

43:49

being a press of the flesh type

43:51

of leader. You know, you just talked

43:54

to some great ideas of comfort for

43:56

making yourself open and being available. But

43:58

I've seen you do town halls on

44:00

video. I was able to take a

44:03

look at what are your town hall

44:05

videos. And you get up there and

44:07

you beg everybody around the world to

44:09

give you the toughest freaking question. Okay,

44:12

you know, why do you do that?

44:14

And then I got to ask a

44:16

two-parter here, okay? No one's asking that,

44:18

but I've never been asked that question.

44:21

You just ask something, no one's asking.

44:23

You beg, you beg for that question,

44:25

okay? Is it because you're so fricking

44:27

tough that people are afraid to ask

44:30

it? No, they ask them. Okay, because

44:32

I'm going, you know, leaders can be

44:34

intimidating, you're convicted, you got this. I

44:36

got to ask you, I mean, you

44:39

know, is that something you have to

44:41

overcome? Because I guarantee if I walk

44:43

in the office and I was meeting

44:45

with Mark Shapiro and I see your

44:48

conviction and your passion or whatever, I

44:50

think I'd pucker up a little bit,

44:52

you know, not me, but maybe somebody

44:54

else. That's fair and that may be

44:57

a weakness that I have. Frankly, I

44:59

have to show off more gears more

45:01

often. But at the end of the

45:03

day, why I asked for those tough

45:06

questions, I'm human, I'm human. I'm human.

45:08

And I remember where I remember where

45:10

I remember where I came from. And

45:12

I think a lot has to do

45:15

with my upbringing, taking this full circle

45:17

to your first question. I grew up

45:19

in Chicago, hardworking, divorce parents, Midwestern work

45:21

ethic. I got my shot, I got

45:24

shut down and denied and told no

45:26

and ignored. And at the same time,

45:28

got a lot of opportunity to prove

45:30

myself. At the end of the day,

45:33

nurtured some great relationships. And I had

45:35

my own champions, my own rabbis, my

45:37

own advocates. And that had a lot

45:39

to do that in timing with. Moving

45:42

up the ladder. It wasn't just oh

45:44

these accomplishments a lot comes into that

45:46

picture And I had the right teams

45:48

in place to get me there And

45:51

now so when I go into these

45:53

town halls and I did this at

45:55

ESPN Like don't be shot. You just

45:57

need that first question once somebody asks

46:00

the first question You're off to the

46:02

races, but I want people to know

46:04

like we have transparency We are a

46:06

company where we wear it on our

46:09

sleeves. You know where you stand. And

46:11

there's nothing you're going to ask that

46:13

we're going to say, hey, how much

46:15

does the ESPN make? How profitable is

46:18

it to the Walt Disney Company? Six

46:20

flags. How much longer can we stay

46:22

afloat with the cash on hand and

46:25

all that debt before we have to

46:27

go into bankruptcy? On and on and

46:29

on. There's all kinds of challenges. Dick

46:31

Clark suffering. after a stroke and he's

46:34

the host of New Year's Rock and

46:36

Eve when I own Dick Clark Productions

46:38

and I ran that. Mark, how long

46:40

are we going to keep Dick Clark

46:43

is the host? A New Year's Rock

46:45

and Eve when you can barely understand

46:47

what he's saying. These are the kinds

46:49

of questions. Be ready for it. And

46:52

by the way, I'm quick also to

46:54

say if I don't know the answer.

46:56

I'll tell you, and we'll figure it

46:58

out or we don't know the answer.

47:01

But I just think you really need

47:03

that we don't know the answer. that

47:05

openness, that transparency, that relationship. The other

47:07

thing that you've talked about is, you

47:10

know, you not only come up with

47:12

ideas, other people come up with ideas,

47:14

then you always, I've heard you say

47:16

this, then you get everybody in the

47:19

room, you say, then you start banging

47:21

them this way, that way, and coming

47:23

up with this idea, that idea, whatever,

47:25

that requires collaboration. And, you know, we're

47:28

in this virtual world today, Mark, I

47:30

mean, and you're in this creative world,

47:32

where collaboration is so key. How do

47:34

you bring those things. How do you

47:37

bring it together in this post-covid world

47:39

where everybody, or a lot of people

47:41

want to stay home instead of come

47:43

to work? Luckily, this isn't a town

47:46

hall because if my employees, 11,000 employees,

47:48

heard you ask that. Here he goes

47:50

again. With the softball for Shapiro, he's

47:52

gonna knock us out now. I am,

47:55

and I'm not saying I'm right, okay?

47:57

And God bless Jamie Diamond who's been

47:59

on your show and he's a good

48:01

friend. He's been good to us as

48:04

a company and several of the companies

48:06

I'm at. But he of course was

48:08

caught on tape if you will talking

48:10

about justice and I subscribe to the

48:13

same velocity. It's not because I'm like

48:15

old school and you got to come

48:17

in at 9 to 5 and here

48:19

you go. It's that I'm a big,

48:22

just a big believer, right or wrong.

48:24

That there's a premium. There's no substitute

48:26

for being in person. How many things

48:28

collisions happen? Or happenstance collaboration. Or hey,

48:31

you out in the hallway. What's your

48:33

name? Karen. Karen, come on in here.

48:35

We want to get your opinion on

48:37

boom and it launches her career. You

48:40

never know. And you need, you need

48:42

varied opinions. You need diverse opinions. You

48:44

need diverse backgrounds. ethnicities, right? Experiences for

48:46

people to really weigh in. And when

48:49

you are in the office and you're

48:51

walking the halls and you're in conference

48:53

rooms and you're forced to be together,

48:55

you're just more creative. You're more collaborative.

48:58

You're raising the odds for success because

49:00

you're there. When you're on the virtual,

49:02

I'm not saying you can be totally

49:05

dialed in and I do virtuals all

49:07

the time. But I also know sometimes

49:09

when I'm doing them, I'm doing an

49:11

email. kind of dressed for success, right?

49:14

It's just, it's a different environment, and

49:16

it's okay if you want that. And

49:18

some trades, engineering, etc., etc., etc. Some

49:20

of the folks who work in our

49:23

IT, they can do the job from

49:25

home. They don't need as much collaboration.

49:27

And some companies don't require the being

49:29

in office. Our company needs it. It

49:32

depends on it. With creativity, you have

49:34

to have that collaboration. And young people,

49:36

can you imagine? Like, if I'm young,

49:38

like... I want to get noticed. I

49:41

want to get recognized. Put me in,

49:43

coach. A volunteer, raise my hand coach.

49:45

What am I doing that over virtual?

49:47

Such a good point. You know, I

49:50

have to tell you, Marcus, but so

49:52

much fun catching up with you. And

49:54

I want to have a little bit

49:56

more with my lightning round of questions.

49:59

So I know you're ready for everything.

50:01

Not good at it. I want to

50:03

be cool. The three words to best

50:05

describe you. Passionate, energy, energetic. Empathetic. If

50:08

you could be one person for a

50:10

day beside yourself, who would it be?

50:12

Walt Disney. What's your biggest... Don't tell

50:14

me what I want to hear. Don't

50:17

bullshit me. Give it to me straight.

50:19

Let's have an honest, it goes both

50:21

ways, and feedback goes both ways. Let's

50:23

have an open relationship in that sense.

50:26

Who would play you in a movie?

50:28

Think by Tal. There you go. How

50:30

long could you last in the octagon

50:32

with John Jones? I couldn't. I peed

50:35

in my pants before I got in

50:37

the octagon and they would disqualify me.

50:39

If you were in the W.W. would

50:41

you rather be a face or a

50:44

heel? Oh for sure a heel. Which

50:46

of your 16 Emmy's are the most

50:48

proud of? Not even close sports century.

50:50

The Century Project I talked about because

50:53

it didn't just win an Emmy. It

50:55

won what I always wanted to win

50:57

as a storyteller, a Peabody Award. It's

50:59

Wimbledon. There's just nothing. It's so majestic.

51:02

It's just a special place. And after

51:04

my internship at NBC, it was the

51:06

first event of my career that I

51:08

worked. I mean, I was the guy

51:11

that went and got McDonald's for everybody,

51:13

but it doesn't matter. I was at

51:15

Wimbledon, and I'm taking, it will always

51:17

and forever be my wife, Kim, or

51:20

any of my sons, Jack, JT, and

51:22

Ryan. What's the one thing you do

51:24

just for you, or you, or? That's

51:26

a place I fail, frankly. I don't,

51:29

you need, you need more me time,

51:31

but just something for you. I don't

51:33

do enough of that. Besides your family,

51:35

what's your most prized position? Friends, because

51:38

David, we work this way, we work

51:40

hard, but we do it so hopefully

51:42

the time you do break off when

51:44

you're not working is spent with your

51:47

community. If I turned on the radio

51:49

in your car, what would I hear?

51:51

You too. What's something about you a

51:54

few people would know? That I had

51:56

a minor in political science because a

51:58

career in politics was my backup plan.

52:00

What's one of your daily rituals? Last

52:03

question here on the lightning round. What's

52:05

one of your daily rituals, something that

52:07

you'd never miss? My workouts. All right,

52:09

well, you're in good shape, but that's

52:12

great. You're ready to wrestle, you're ready

52:14

to fight, you're ready to get on

52:16

that bowl. I hear that. This is

52:18

it. The mental energy and clarity you

52:21

get from just even walking on a

52:23

treadmill is something that I'm desperate for

52:25

on a daily basis. All right, just

52:27

a few more questions. You and your

52:30

wife, Kim, you have three boys. What's

52:32

a leadership lesson you've picked up at

52:34

work that you really try to live

52:36

out at home? you know in my

52:39

boys my wife is I mean she's

52:41

and she's a godsend I mean she's

52:43

southern bell from Kentucky she went to

52:45

Alabama just raised the right way and

52:48

she's all about values she's all about

52:50

integrity she's all about manners and and

52:52

I would just say I want my

52:54

boys to work hard I want them

52:57

to work hard I want them to

52:59

grind I want them to dig in

53:01

I want them to put the time

53:03

and effort in I want them to

53:06

show how much they care about what

53:08

they do, the attention to detail, and

53:10

the way they treat others. Extremely important,

53:12

especially going back to that entitlement point,

53:15

where I've seen a lot of kids

53:17

in college coming out or even their

53:19

friends that just have so much. And

53:21

when you grow up and I've been

53:24

blessed and your kids have a lot,

53:26

it's that much harder to keep them

53:28

grounded when they grow up with so

53:30

much. in the world that you're in

53:33

and in the world, frankly, with just

53:35

your creativity and your ideas. What do

53:37

you put on yourself to really pay

53:39

this forward to other people? I think

53:42

you put a lot of weight, yet

53:44

you carry a lot of weight with

53:46

that, right? I mean, you can never

53:48

forget where you came from. And you're

53:51

you have to open opportunity for everyone

53:53

around you in the same way. remembering

53:55

the way someone did it for you.

53:57

Like I said, yes, some of it

54:00

was accomplishing, some of it was timing,

54:02

but I had some senior folks, certainly

54:04

at ESPN, who if they didn't reach

54:06

down. and pull me up. This guy's

54:09

gonna do this guy can do this

54:11

for us. We should give this guy

54:13

the opportunity. We should take a chance

54:15

on this guy. It never would have

54:18

happened. Like those champions, you live, you

54:20

breathe and you breathe those champions. And

54:22

I take that very seriously. And I

54:24

take that very seriously. And every assistant

54:27

that ever worked for me. In fact,

54:29

you've got a big assistant reunion coming

54:31

up. I'm talking, you know, assistant on

54:34

your desk. And there's like 16 of

54:36

them. and we're going to share experiences.

54:38

I'm talking in the 30 years I've

54:40

been working. They're all coming. You know

54:43

what I'm doing? I hope for if

54:45

nothing else, they walk away realizing how

54:47

much I appreciate the impact and the

54:49

contribution they made and had on what

54:52

my career trajectory, what my teams have

54:54

been, what my companies have been, because

54:56

it takes that to get there. It's

54:58

the John F. Kennedy story. True or

55:01

not. I just I love that story

55:03

that he's going to the bathroom, you

55:05

know, NASA or Cape Canaveral, wherever he's

55:07

at, and then, you know, the bathroom

55:10

attendant says, how you doing? He says,

55:12

the bathroom attendant, the bathroom attendant says,

55:14

I'm doing great. We're sending a man

55:16

to the moon today. Like, he's the

55:19

custodian, and he feels a part of

55:21

that team. I don't care if that's

55:23

lore or fiction. I love that story.

55:25

I know that story too. You know,

55:28

and what do you see as your

55:30

unfinished business? I think what it relates

55:32

to unfinished business, it's not with work.

55:34

I don't think that. Unfinished business is,

55:37

what I'm going to mean is a,

55:39

in the long game, is a father

55:41

to my kids, as ultimately, I don't

55:43

want to get too old too quick

55:46

here, as a grandfather to my grandchildren,

55:48

as a brother. to my to my

55:50

sisters and my brother as a friend

55:52

to all the friends I built over

55:55

the course of my life and career

55:57

in work and play and business in

55:59

school with the husband to my wife

56:01

we've been you know we're coming up

56:04

on 30 years I mean wow that

56:06

means something I got married to 26

56:08

years old and I put a lot

56:10

of stock in that and I work

56:13

hard like I do on the job

56:15

to try to be a better person

56:17

and not always bring home the work,

56:19

drama and controversy and pressures into the

56:22

household. And I fail at that too,

56:24

David. But it's a priority for me

56:26

and it's a goal of mine. That's

56:28

great. Yeah, that's great. Last question here,

56:31

Mark. You know, what's one piece of

56:33

advice you'd give to anyone who wants

56:35

to be a better leader? I mean,

56:37

there's just too much around that for

56:40

me. I'll tell you, you're never going

56:42

to be a great leader. If you

56:44

don't get in there and do the

56:46

work yourself, right? If you don't set

56:49

the example, I don't care what level

56:51

you're at. I can get a cup

56:53

of coffee from my assistant the same

56:55

way she can grab one for me.

56:58

It's team, and you have to really

57:00

have that in your veins. And the

57:02

only way to get that in your

57:04

veins is to dig in and get

57:07

that experience, all kinds of different experiences,

57:09

and really plug in. the work you

57:11

are, the person you are, the manager

57:14

of people you are, the teammate you

57:16

are, and ultimately the leader you want

57:18

to become. Well Mark, I want to

57:20

thank you so much for taking time

57:23

for this interview. And I want to

57:25

thank you for the example that you

57:27

set, the example you set for setting

57:29

an example. And the example you said

57:32

for just the creativity and passion and

57:34

just the belief and conviction in ideas.

57:36

So many people go to work every

57:38

day and they don't have that belief

57:41

in power and in creativity and what

57:43

people can do together. And you inspired

57:45

me today with your comments. So thank

57:47

you very much. Well, thank you. And

57:50

I love what you said what they

57:52

can do together. I mean, seriously that.

57:54

There's no old cliche. There's no I

57:56

and team and I want to thank

57:59

you because The second I found out

58:01

you're doing this podcast about leadership like

58:03

you like sign me up. You can't

58:05

do enough of that and you have

58:08

a great style about you an interview

58:10

style about you to get stories and

58:12

anecdotes and really keep it raw and

58:14

gritty and allow somebody to feel

58:17

comfortable to share their

58:19

story and I appreciate

58:22

you for that. Thank you buddy.

58:24

Appreciate it. Here's a guy who

58:26

does more than just set a

58:28

bold vision. He makes sure everyone

58:30

knows exactly what success looks like,

58:33

what their role is in achieving

58:35

it, and what's at stake if

58:37

they don't deliver. That level

58:39

of clarity is key if you

58:41

want a results-driven culture. With

58:44

vague expectations, you're going

58:46

to lose accountability. People start

58:48

guessing and results suffer. But

58:50

when your team knows exactly

58:53

what's expected and they're getting

58:55

lots of real-time feedback along

58:57

the way, you can create

58:59

some serious momentum. So

59:01

here's something to try this week.

59:03

Choose one key initiative and ask

59:05

yourself. Have I made the expectations

59:07

that I'm asking my people crystal

59:10

clear? Does every person involved know

59:12

what success looks like and how

59:15

will be measured? Remember, when everyone is

59:17

clear on the goal, hitting it becomes

59:19

a heck of a lot easier. So

59:21

do you want to know how

59:24

leaders lead? What we learned today

59:26

is the great leaders set clear

59:28

expectations. Coming up next on how leaders

59:30

lead is Frank Edwards, the CEO

59:33

of Aqueduct Capital. My whole world

59:35

I feel like is built on

59:37

relationships and I think your reputation

59:40

is the most important thing you

59:42

have in the world. Let's protect

59:44

that. every single day. So be

59:46

sure to subscribe on YouTube or wherever you

59:49

get your podcast so that you don't miss

59:51

it. Thanks again for tuning in to another

59:53

episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday

59:55

you get to listen in while I interview

59:57

some of the very best leaders in the

59:59

world. I make it I make it a

1:00:01

point to give you something simple on

1:00:03

each episode that you can apply to

1:00:05

your business to your that you will become

1:00:08

the best leader you can be. best leader

1:00:10

you can be.