0:00

This episode is brought to

0:02

you by Choiceology, an original

0:04

podcast from Charles Schwab. Hosted

0:07

by Katie Milkman, an award-winning

0:09

behavioral scientist and author of

0:11

the best-selling book How to

0:14

Change. Choiceology is a show

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about the psychology and economics

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behind our decisions. Here are

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true stories from Noah, laureates,

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authors, and everyday people about

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why we do the things

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we do. Listen to choice.com/podcast.

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in theaters. I

1:02

find out the song has like

1:05

you know 11,000 plays. I'm like

1:07

yes. You know what I mean?

1:09

And if I find it has

1:11

like 30 million plays I'm like

1:13

oh man. Some of my earliest

1:15

memories involved me lying on the

1:17

floor of my bedroom when I

1:19

was supposed to be cleaning it,

1:21

but instead just staring at the

1:23

ceiling and listening to Michael Jackson

1:26

singing Lady in my life. Which I

1:28

contend then, and contend now, is by

1:30

a wide margin the best song on

1:32

thriller and maybe even of his whole

1:34

career. I don't care, you can fight

1:36

me about that. I would get lost

1:38

in that song. I would get emotional.

1:40

I had this experience a lot back then

1:42

in the 80s with prints and musical

1:45

youth and men at work. Don't judge

1:47

me. I was eight. And when I

1:49

grew older, I would get overwhelmed listening

1:51

to Fishbone and NWA and Spice One

1:53

and John Coltrane and Jimiandrix and Sonic

1:56

Youth. I would take the bus down

1:58

Ventura Boulevard in the valley. spend all

2:00

day flipping through tapes and CDs at

2:02

the warehouse music and video store where

2:04

I would later have one of my

2:06

first jobs. I could only afford to

2:08

buy one thing, and so I had

2:10

to choose carefully. I wanted the music

2:12

to be so good that it would

2:14

make me cry. Music never stopped

2:16

being important to me. I

2:19

played in bands, in college, and

2:21

in my 20s and 30s, and

2:23

I even wrote about music for

2:25

Pitch Fork at the beginning of

2:27

my career. But somewhere along the

2:29

way, sometime after Spotify became the

2:31

main way I listen, I experienced

2:33

this weird phenomenon, which is that

2:35

it suddenly became impossible to find

2:37

thrilling new music. It was like

2:39

the algorithm kept serving me the

2:41

same stuff over and over, and

2:43

I didn't know how to break

2:45

out of it. I didn't have

2:47

some weird kids' older sister to

2:49

turn me on to music that

2:51

was exciting and kind of scary.

2:53

Warehouse and tower records were long

2:55

gone. Radio had been reduced to

2:57

a small collection of tick-talk hits

2:59

floating in a sea of commercials.

3:01

Music has never been more

3:04

accessible thanks to streaming apps.

3:06

But that can make discovering the

3:08

perfect new track feel like finding

3:10

a needle in a haystack. So

3:12

this week, we're going to bring

3:14

on two listeners, music super fans

3:17

in their own right, who are

3:19

also searching for that proverbial needle,

3:21

and asking themselves, are there even

3:24

better ways to discover new and

3:26

interesting music? My name is Bree.

3:28

I live in Maryland, and I just

3:31

have been a music enthusiast for a

3:33

long time. growing up my dad loved

3:35

music he like made me a set

3:37

of tapes until it started at

3:39

like music he felt like I should know

3:41

and it was just always something that

3:44

was kind of important in my

3:46

family that I grew up with. Yeah RJ

3:48

I live on Long Island and I'm 53

3:50

years old and similar to Bree I've been

3:52

music's been a part of my life from

3:54

the day I can remember and I was

3:56

lucky to grow up with three older siblings

3:59

in the 70s. which was a great

4:01

time of experiencing music through my

4:03

family, and I take a lot

4:05

of pride in having good taste

4:07

of music. A little later

4:09

in the show, we're going to

4:12

hear how Brie has meticulously documented

4:14

her music journey for more than

4:16

a decade. But first, RJ's own

4:19

journey began as a kid who

4:21

had older siblings, and that meant

4:23

soaking up their music taste and

4:25

digging through record collections that left

4:28

lasting impressions. I could picture

4:30

the 45. I mean, just

4:32

like couldn't hear it

4:35

enough. I had older

4:37

sisters who listened to

4:39

Led Zeppelin and Pink

4:41

Floyd. My mother, who

4:44

was from Massachusetts, she

4:46

would say, AJ. That's her way

4:48

of saying, my name. Don't listen

4:50

to this. That Led Zeppelin. He's

4:53

crazy. Pick Floyd they're crazy so

4:55

they were people I didn't know

4:57

they were people I just knew

4:59

that they were a little bit

5:01

dangerous and I was like I

5:03

want to learn more about that

5:05

yeah so for me it was

5:07

just kind of picturing exactly you

5:09

know where you were when you

5:11

you heard music which for me

5:13

that experience especially the first time

5:15

of discovering something new that that really

5:18

strikes a nerve for you is just

5:20

something you never forget yeah how old

5:22

were you when you heard that Paul Salmon

5:24

record Wow, I was, it was probably, I

5:26

was probably four or five years old.

5:29

I mean, I was born in 1971.

5:31

I mean, it was definitely mid-70s. It's

5:33

one of those things that just kind

5:35

of stuck with you. And do you

5:37

remember the first piece of music that

5:39

you, that you went out and bought?

5:42

Yeah. It was, the first album I

5:44

bought was privatized by, by Darryl Hall

5:46

and Johnnodes. I can't go for that.

5:48

Had that like, like, like, propulsive beat.

5:51

That propulsive like driving beat that's been

5:53

sampled so many times and remakes and

5:55

stuff. magical

6:03

the way it grabs you so I think there

6:05

was something about and looking back on it now

6:07

learning about their roots right out of all the

6:10

disco scene that was everything that was going on

6:12

in Philadelphia it was like wow they just fused

6:14

so many really cool things yeah and it's age

6:16

so well yeah and back in the day it was

6:18

like they you would hear a single I

6:20

mean that's how you found out about an

6:23

album is you would hear a single that

6:25

it was like yeah you were just like

6:27

you wanted more of that I totally relate

6:29

to that I think it used to be

6:31

a scarcity thing, like it used to have

6:33

a lot of pride, like when you discovered

6:35

a band or you found something cool first,

6:38

like there was a sense of ownership with

6:40

that, right? And I think there was something

6:42

about the discovery element of it, whether

6:44

it was when you were in high school

6:46

and you'd meet friends in high school

6:48

that maybe had a... a cool older brother that

6:51

had, I still remember, like the red

6:53

hot chili peppers and being at a

6:55

high school party and being like, what

6:57

is this? And then looking at the

6:59

album cover and be like, okay, these

7:01

guys are out of their mind, but

7:03

couldn't get enough of it. So much

7:05

it was tribal, so much it was

7:07

handed down. And I think down the

7:09

digital world that we are where the other

7:11

great news is like, like, you can chew

7:13

up anything you want at any time, but

7:16

the bad news is it's just everywhere. not

7:18

just go back to the things that you

7:20

love, but how do you discover things

7:22

that are new? In theory, this should be

7:24

like the greatest time in the

7:26

world for discovering music. because everything is

7:29

accessible. And like, I was born in

7:31

1974, so I remember what it was

7:33

like going into a record store and

7:35

being like, damn, I remember putting down

7:37

1599 of my heart-earned money for something

7:39

that I don't even know if it's

7:42

good. But now it's like, I can

7:44

listen to anything. I could just go

7:46

and find any artists who ever lived

7:48

and find some of their work. Derek,

7:50

it should be easier to discover music

7:52

right now. So why is it that

7:55

people like Pine for the old days

7:57

of mixtape and CDs and records?

7:59

I wonder about that question because

8:01

I think that there's generationally, I

8:04

think that younger people, and I'm

8:06

going to say like 17 years

8:08

old, might not pine for that

8:10

sort of thing, but I think

8:12

for people like us, myself included,

8:14

who bought a lot of CDs

8:17

and it was a simpler time.

8:19

This is our expert this week,

8:21

Derek G. And I think we

8:23

pined for it because the value

8:25

of music has changed and how

8:27

we interact with it. and what

8:30

it means to, for music to

8:32

be precious, is a different thing.

8:34

My name is Derek G. I

8:36

am considered these days a content

8:38

creator. I call myself a professional

8:41

music fan, so I talk about

8:43

music online primarily in short form

8:45

video. I've been a radio host

8:48

in the past, DJ, and now

8:50

I reach many, many hundreds of

8:53

thousands of people just sharing what

8:55

I love about music, and people

8:57

seem to like it. Derek GEE

9:00

lives in Australia, but he's

9:02

kind of everywhere online. YouTube,

9:04

Tiktok, Instagram. He's even got

9:06

a private listening club on

9:08

Patreon, which if you haven't

9:10

checked out yet, you probably

9:12

should. He's like an encyclopedia

9:15

of modern music. A human

9:17

recommendation engine who can hook

9:19

you into mainstream stuff and

9:21

experimental sounds and hidden gems

9:23

and vintage Korean psychedelic and

9:26

so much more. And yeah.

9:28

I am a fan. So

9:30

today on the show

9:32

we're going to

9:35

let Derek be

9:37

our musical treasure

9:40

hunter. He's going

9:42

to show us where

9:45

to dig to find

9:47

the gems and bangers

9:50

we've been wanting

9:53

for so long. Stick around.

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shopify.com/how-to. This episode

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is brought you

11:04

by Choiceology, an original

11:06

podcast from Charles Schwab.

11:09

Choiceology is a show all

11:11

about the psychology and economics

11:13

behind our decisions. Each episode

11:15

shares the latest research and

11:17

behavioral science and dives into

11:20

themes like... Can we learn

11:22

to make smarter decisions and

11:24

the power of do-overs? The

11:26

show is hosted by Katie Milkman. She's

11:28

an award-winning behavioral scientist, professor

11:31

at the Wharton School, and author

11:33

of the best-selling book How to

11:35

Change. In each episode, Katie talks to

11:37

authors, historians, athletes, Nobel laureates, and

11:39

everyday people about why we make

11:42

irrational choices and how we can

11:44

make better ones to avoid costly

11:46

mistakes. Listen and subscribe

11:48

at schwab.com/podcast or find

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it wherever you listen.

11:55

Brie and RJ and our expert

11:57

Derek G. Derek is a... and

12:00

an online influencer, sure, but I

12:02

like how he described himself a

12:04

moment ago as a professional music

12:06

fan. Music seeking today is not

12:08

the same as what it was

12:11

in our past, but according to

12:13

Derek, that's not necessarily a bad

12:15

thing, it's just different. I

12:17

think that young people especially are

12:19

far more educated on music than

12:21

anyone ever has been before, so

12:23

I think it is the best, best

12:26

time in history to discover music, but

12:28

I think... We're missing focus

12:30

and the time to take to

12:32

really obsess over something and I

12:35

think that we are much quicker

12:37

to dismiss music and I think

12:39

of every age because it is

12:42

something where we can just put

12:44

on a playlist and just

12:46

absorb music as a consumable

12:48

as opposed to an art

12:50

form. And I think that's

12:52

a really dangerous relationship.

12:55

to have with music because it's it should

12:57

be a lot more special. I grew up

12:59

as like I was a music guy like I

13:01

played music I played in bands and

13:03

then I started writing about music so I

13:05

thought okay I'm like a music I'm the

13:08

kind of guy that people come to when

13:10

they're like what's cool and I'm like can

13:12

make them a mixtape and when I was

13:14

prepping for this episode I was like thinking

13:17

about well who do I like listening to

13:19

right now and one of the things that

13:21

blew my mind because I'd never noticed this

13:24

before, is that I can always remember like

13:26

the certain tracks that I like or play

13:28

on repeat, but I can never remember the

13:30

artists. Like I actually don't remember the

13:32

artists' name. And I was like, God,

13:35

that has to be because Spotify is

13:37

just serving me these things in a

13:39

list. And. all I have to do

13:41

is click the say button so that

13:43

I hear it again, but I never

13:45

get to interact with the actual artist

13:48

the way I used to like sit

13:50

and look at somebody's lyric sheet inside

13:52

the tape or inside the CD or

13:54

inside the vinyl. Like, is that something

13:56

that you think is part of what

13:58

is being lost? I think if you look

14:01

at the motivation of the streaming services

14:03

and of the labels, it's less to

14:05

do with what you buy, but your

14:07

session time. So how long are you

14:09

staying in this place? And so they

14:11

want to please you. They want to

14:13

please you. They want to kind of

14:15

have you be in a lean-back scenario

14:17

where it's just on and it's pleasant

14:19

and it uses its algorithms to say,

14:21

well, people like you listen to this,

14:23

so you might like listening to it

14:25

as well. But the result of that

14:27

is that there is very little depth.

14:29

it's hard to be obsessed with things

14:31

because it just plays you the best

14:34

music out right now according to them.

14:36

I do like it to social media

14:38

in a sense because I reach lots

14:40

of people sometimes millions of people with

14:42

my videos but people might not know

14:44

my name. It's just the guy that

14:46

you know some people say the Asian

14:49

guy with glasses. It's a battle for

14:51

attention including music and I think that's

14:53

really hard for musicians as well and

14:55

I think it deserves more time. for

14:57

musicians all for myself is like if

15:00

people are putting in quality effort

15:02

it should in this age require us to

15:04

then dig in and go why do I

15:06

like that and it's part of the solution

15:08

for me is like stopping listening to that

15:11

album learning about them and trying to become

15:13

a fan as opposed to a consumer. It's

15:15

such a different way of interacting with artists

15:17

than I grew up with and it's interesting

15:20

to see how much I've fallen into it.

15:22

You know I have this experience where I

15:24

will have a song that I like or

15:27

a playlist that I like and I'll be

15:29

like, yeah, the song is good. And it's

15:31

always kind of bedroomy, R&B, pop. I'm

15:33

always liking that stuff and I'm always

15:35

like, yeah, it's so intimate. It's like

15:37

my own little music and this own

15:39

little weird artist made it and I

15:41

like it. And then I go into

15:43

a cafe and it's like, they play.

15:45

seven songs while I'm in there that

15:47

are the exact same songs that I

15:50

thought were just mine. And I hear

15:52

them everywhere and lately I've been thinking

15:54

about how Spotify seems to, and maybe

15:56

this is just me, prioritize this kind

15:58

of like bedroom pop R&B thing. First

16:00

of all, is that true or is

16:03

that just my algorithm? And secondly, is

16:05

that part of the feeling of that

16:07

like Spotify wants you to remain

16:09

in a sense of like pleasant,

16:11

relaxed, nothing too aggressive, nothing too

16:13

forceful, nothing to kind of like

16:16

wake you up from your listening

16:18

stupor? For sure. I would say definitely.

16:20

There's a reason why. Frank Ocean seems to

16:22

make it into every player that's even if

16:24

it's a rock playlist. Right, exactly. It's just

16:27

like, it just lulls you. And I have

16:29

friends that are like, this is the shade

16:31

on Frank, not everyone likes him, and they're

16:33

like, I'm not a fan of Frank's, but

16:36

he always comes up and not me, this

16:38

is what they say. And they try to

16:40

mute him and it keeps coming back

16:42

because it's like... the streaming services will

16:44

say no no no the majority of

16:46

people like this you will like this

16:48

and you'll stay around for it so

16:51

we will we will please you with

16:53

this and to be nostalgic

16:55

radio and kind of turning

16:57

the dial and stumbling upon

16:59

something was the charm right

17:01

and now it's very hard

17:03

to stumble upon something that's

17:05

shocking or surprising yeah because

17:07

it's tailored to know you

17:09

and for my whole career

17:11

I've Never used an algorithm

17:13

playlist because I don't want a

17:15

machine to think it knows me

17:17

Which is a bit extreme, but

17:19

I like randomness. I like finding

17:22

things on my own And I

17:24

think part of it and part

17:26

of this discussion for me is

17:28

about effort You know, it's it's

17:30

about not letting something choose for

17:32

you because that that can lull

17:34

you into a false sense of

17:36

security That

17:42

was the track in my room

17:44

by Frank Ocean, one of the

17:46

artists that Derek just mentioned.

17:48

Okay, so Brie, one of

17:51

our listeners, has been doing

17:53

a really interesting thing, which

17:56

is documenting her music discovery

17:58

journey by compiling. an annual

18:00

playlist. She's been at it for

18:02

almost 15 years. So I always

18:04

also made a lot of big CDs

18:07

back in college. I'd collect them and

18:09

then all the music I put I put

18:11

onto a CD. And so then I guess

18:13

when I kind of, I think this might

18:15

have been when I initially

18:17

downloaded Spotify, but really early

18:19

on when I started using

18:21

streaming, I just started collecting

18:23

it into annual playlists.

18:26

And I have kept doing that in

18:28

part because it gives me. a way that

18:30

I can go back to older years and

18:32

listen to what I was doing at that

18:34

time and it gives me this like

18:36

great blast of nostalgia like oh yeah

18:38

I was like in the club listening

18:41

to this music in 2012.

18:43

Sometimes there's like a year that was

18:45

hard for me and I can hear

18:47

that in whatever I was listening to

18:50

in 2025 I'm kind of building

18:52

that playlist. That means that you've

18:54

been engaging with Spotify for a

18:56

long time. Have you found that

18:58

it's changed? Has it gotten worse?

19:01

Better for you? Stay the same

19:03

in terms of like discovering new

19:05

music that you maybe wouldn't otherwise

19:07

find. I used to use the discovery

19:10

algorithm and I stopped in the

19:12

past year or two because it

19:14

just started to feel really samey.

19:16

And so I didn't feel like I

19:18

was discovering. anything like those exciting

19:21

like things that I could listen to

19:23

you know listenable music that I would

19:25

think okay yeah that's fun it'll fit

19:27

into like a moved list but it

19:30

wasn't anything that excited me so to

19:32

kind of find new music I've moved

19:34

away from those algorithms and

19:36

I've been seeking out mostly podcasts

19:38

that are the whole point

19:40

of those podcasts discovering music

19:42

like KXP or NPR or podcast that

19:44

just do just a random song every

19:46

day and I really enjoy Just the

19:49

things I would never listen to even if

19:51

I only sent you that once because it's

19:53

that happens to be that song of

19:55

the day It doesn't make any playlist.

19:57

It's still just like a fun little

19:59

moment turning to Derek like, let's

20:01

like get into like the main question,

20:03

which is like, if Spotify isn't serving

20:06

you new exciting music that is pushing

20:08

you in new directions that are great,

20:10

and it's just kind of giving you

20:12

the same like, you know, bedroom, R&B,

20:14

Frank Ocean, the internet, what a Cleosol,

20:17

whatever it is, which is all great.

20:19

If you feel like it's not pushing

20:21

into new places, how do you discover

20:23

new music? It's a million dollar question,

20:26

isn't it? Why we're all here? And

20:28

I get asked this a lot in

20:30

public, people that recognize me and what

20:32

have you, people that are stuck. The

20:34

answer is up to you. And this is

20:37

not the answer that people necessarily want

20:39

to hear. They want to say,

20:41

like I should say, and I will

20:43

say, me, people like me, people

20:45

like internet radio, things like DJ

20:48

sets. places that you trust that

20:50

you think authentically want to share

20:52

music with you. But I do

20:54

think tastemakers are people that do

20:56

all the effort for you, passionate and

20:58

nerdy about it, and want to provide you

21:01

with what they've found, and they'll do that

21:03

for the rest of their life for free

21:05

because they love it so much. And that's

21:08

what I have done. These tastemakers are people

21:10

like me on the internet, they are DJs,

21:12

they're radio hosts, they are people that want

21:14

to share their love for music and put

21:17

it in context. I think that's really important

21:19

because therefore you learn about why they're like

21:21

it as opposed to just say here's a

21:23

hundred songs that you should check out this

21:26

week which is overwhelming. But the deeper

21:28

question is that when you're younger

21:30

perhaps you're going to parties clubs,

21:32

clubs, concerts, concerts, and you're surrounded

21:34

by... your friends who's always putting music

21:36

on in the car and whatnot

21:38

and your priorities change and quiet

21:41

time is more valuable. I do

21:43

think that discovering new

21:45

music is about taking a

21:47

pause diving deep and getting

21:49

uncomfortable and listening to stuff

21:51

that oh you might not like every

21:54

song from that artist but listen

21:56

to their whole album give it a

21:58

go what IJ said I think that

22:00

inspired by the passion of young people

22:02

is really great because I think that

22:04

there is a fervent energy that we

22:06

all have or had in some cases

22:09

that it's good to leach off that

22:11

fountain of youth in a sense but

22:13

I think it is about really deciding

22:15

that music is still important to

22:17

you in life and that it

22:19

is worth pursuing. I

22:23

love this idea of getting out of your

22:26

comfort zone. I think that this is,

22:28

you know, if the goal of streaming

22:30

services is to kind of keep us

22:32

there so that we never are challenged

22:34

by anything, then part of what we

22:36

miss is that experience of like listening

22:38

to the radio when we were younger

22:40

or buying a CD where you don't

22:42

like every song, but you do like

22:44

one of them a lot. Or someone

22:46

makes you a mixtape and like, not

22:48

every song works for you, but you

22:50

sort of, something grows on you because

22:52

you hear it's I guess my question for

22:55

RJ and for Brie is like,

22:57

do you find yourself sitting through

22:59

music that you don't like in

23:01

order to find music that you

23:03

do? And how do you

23:05

push yourself into uncomfortable places?

23:07

Yeah, because I do a lot of it

23:09

through podcasts, I'm doing something

23:11

else. So I can kind of

23:13

selectively tune in and out if

23:15

something's really catching my attention or

23:17

not. Like if I'm... washing dishes and

23:19

I'm listening if something's really interesting, you

23:21

know, I stop and I like move

23:24

it to a new playlist. If there

23:26

is a song that I find myself

23:28

listening to over and over, I will

23:30

seek out the album to listen to

23:32

as well. And so I do, you

23:34

know, I don't always like all the

23:36

songs on an album, but I try to

23:38

make a point of like hearing what

23:40

what else those artists are working

23:42

on and getting. So you know, there's

23:44

more there that I'm really interested in.

23:46

significant upsides to the change in how

23:49

we access and consume music is everyone

23:51

tours now and there's so much live

23:53

music and for me like that's a

23:56

huge boon to this right some acts

23:58

like you need to see them live And just

24:00

getting the vibe of the people who are

24:02

at a show for a band that you

24:04

may be curious about, you're not kind of

24:06

sold on yet, for me, has been pretty

24:09

awesome. Instead of kind of sifting through

24:11

some things, just trying to take a shot

24:13

at some, you know, a local band that

24:15

have heard some good things about and I'll

24:17

go to their show and then go back

24:19

and use that as a way to discover

24:21

as a way to kind of see what they're

24:23

like in a live environment, which might

24:25

open up my mind to them in a much

24:27

different way. I feel like for me, I

24:30

also struggle with finding music. For me,

24:32

college radio is like the number one

24:34

thing that I go to. Like I'll

24:36

just, I live in the Bay Area,

24:38

I'll turn on KALX, Berkeley, which is

24:41

the UC Berkeley Radio Station, and they

24:43

just play music all day long. And

24:45

they almost have no shows that aren't

24:47

music, they almost have no commercials, interruptions,

24:49

and they'll just play the most obscure

24:52

random music. I think about... There's a

24:54

station in Texas which I think is

24:56

KVRX and their tagline is all the

24:58

music none of the hits. Like

25:00

that's my like mantra for listening

25:02

to radios like all of the

25:04

music none of the hits because

25:06

I'll just listen to the most

25:08

obscure stuff. It'll be like noise

25:11

recordings. people

25:17

like reciting poetry over like someone hitting a

25:19

trash can and then you know it was

25:22

being the background while I work or clean

25:24

or do whatever and then suddenly they'll play

25:26

a song and I'll be like whoa what

25:28

is this and then I'll go to the

25:30

website because they list every single song they

25:32

play in a row and I'll find that

25:35

song and then I'll put that on a

25:37

playlist I think Derek what you said that

25:39

other people have done the work of pouring

25:41

through the entirety of music to

25:43

bring me stuff that's interesting to

25:46

them. But Derek, what are your

25:48

go-tos for finding other tastemakers that

25:50

have gone through and have called

25:52

the things that may be interesting

25:55

to you? Because my profession is

25:57

this, is to discover and put

25:59

people... onto music, I actually

26:01

intentionally go out to listen to music

26:03

a lot less than I did. What

26:05

I have the skill for now, because

26:07

I've been doing it for so long,

26:09

because before when I used to not

26:12

do this for a living, I would

26:14

work in an office and I would

26:16

listen to the radio all the time,

26:18

or NTS radio is a good example

26:20

of internet radio in London. and just

26:22

choose shows, pick and choose shows, pick

26:24

a DJ, put it on, whether it's

26:26

grim or whether it's 70s folk, they've

26:28

got something for you there and I

26:30

just kind of let it wash over

26:32

me and pick and choose my favorite

26:34

things. Nowadays, because I'm talking about music

26:36

so much, the time to sit down is

26:38

few and far between, but my ears are

26:40

always open and I think I can

26:42

liken this to, I'm not a photographer in

26:45

any way, but I was recently overseas and

26:47

I was asked to take some photos for

26:49

a photos for a brand. and I was

26:51

really worried because I don't have an

26:53

eye for photography I don't know what

26:56

to look for but after completing one

26:58

role of film I started to see

27:00

things I started to go oh that

27:02

shadow is really nice oh that thing

27:04

placed there is really pretty and I

27:06

learned that that is very analogous to

27:08

music it's like if you turn the

27:10

switch on and go okay I want

27:12

to discover new music then you'll see

27:14

your your your friend from high school

27:16

sharing Instagram story and it will be

27:18

a... picture of something that's shared from

27:20

Spotify, or you'll be in a cafe

27:22

and your ears will pick up, or

27:24

you'll hear it in a film and

27:26

you'll want a Shazam, or you'll read

27:28

an article and your favorite artist will

27:30

mention a reference so you don't understand

27:32

and you go down that rubber hole.

27:35

If you decide that you want to

27:37

discover new music, it comes to you.

27:39

And I am someone that puts out

27:41

a show every single week. I can

27:43

do that very easily and show people

27:45

all this new music I'm discovering without

27:47

having to sit down to discover to

27:49

discover. Always open to finding

27:52

This is a great

27:54

point. The internet

27:57

is overwhelming

27:59

and few of us

28:01

have time to scour DJ playlists

28:03

and online databases for gems. So

28:05

maybe you can just sort of

28:07

let them come to you. Like

28:09

flicking that switch in your brain,

28:11

the one that activates your interest

28:13

in new things and opens up

28:15

your mind to new sounds, that

28:17

can help you notice the new

28:20

music that is already all around

28:22

you. All right, we're gonna take

28:24

a short break, and when we

28:26

come back, we're gonna talk more

28:28

about truly. getting out of your

28:30

comfort zone. And Derek gives us

28:32

some specific new music recommendations. Stick

28:34

around. This

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podcast is brought to you by Progressive

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credits and other factors. Yeah,

35:02

that sounds like the kind

35:05

of stuff I like. Derek,

35:07

what about you? What are

35:09

your latest interests in obsession

35:11

to Musically? I'm really into

35:14

the kind of an art

35:16

pop adjacent scene in Denmark

35:18

in Copenhagen. I interviewed an

35:20

artist last year named Erica

35:23

De Casio, who kind of

35:25

is at the forefront of

35:27

like kind of minimal R&B.

35:34

In the community that's

35:36

built around that, there's

35:38

an artist called Fina,

35:40

which is about fine.

35:42

An artist called Emily

35:44

Book, who's really kind

35:46

of ambient, experimental pop,

35:48

and artists like that,

35:50

CTM is another one

35:52

from there. I

36:00

like kind of listening to music that

36:02

there's a bit of a world built

36:05

around and there's a feeling and there's

36:07

a kind of like experimental coolness to

36:09

this music and I mean literal like

36:11

temperature it feels cold yeah and you're

36:13

hearing their music kind of permeate the

36:15

internet but in very like subversive kind

36:17

of ways it's not obvious yeah and

36:19

it's it's cool to see where like

36:21

scenes develop and new artists find their

36:24

sound that are not in the kind

36:26

of mainstream territories of... of the pop

36:28

music world. Yeah, I mean I still

36:30

do have that thing where if I

36:32

hear a song on the radio and

36:34

I like it and I pull it

36:36

up on Spotify and I find out

36:38

the song has like you know 11,000

36:41

plays I'm like yes you know what

36:43

I mean and if I find it

36:45

has like 30 million plays I'm like

36:47

oh man like so I still I

36:49

still do have some of that like

36:51

need to distinguish myself but I don't

36:53

know if it's just ego there may

36:55

just be that I like I like

36:58

the scale of being in something that

37:00

will be like, no, I was gatekeeping

37:02

this, and I know they're half joking,

37:04

but it's like, and there's 12,000 people

37:06

in the world who like them, that

37:08

feels local, and that feels right. I

37:10

think we all do, right? Yeah. We

37:12

all feel like we're part of a

37:14

small thing, and we're at the beginning,

37:17

and we're seeing something, and we're seeing

37:19

something, and I know they're half joking,

37:21

but it's like, I love it, so

37:23

I want people to find it, but

37:25

other people to, and I get it,

37:27

and I get it. they love it

37:29

and they don't want anyone else to

37:31

know about it. Yeah. And it's all,

37:34

it's all valid, but I think, you

37:36

know, my job is for people to,

37:38

you know, enjoy music as much as

37:40

possible. Yeah, for me, I'm super chaotic.

37:42

I just save everything to likes on

37:44

Spotify and I never organized them into

37:46

playlist anymore. And so I was like,

37:48

let me just go through my 100

37:51

billion likes and see which ones, what

37:53

songs are like in my mind like

37:55

super likes. Like, like, I really like

37:57

super likes. I was separating it into

37:59

the genre categories and I was like,

38:01

okay, so I have like neo-psychadelic. I

38:03

have the bedroom pop R&B stuff. I

38:05

have international stuff, I have jazz fusion.

38:07

I just discovered the Jazz is Dead

38:10

thing with Alicia Mohammed and Adrian Young,

38:12

even though that's like years old. I

38:30

just discovered that there's like

38:32

21 albums of just like

38:34

jazz fusion that I can

38:36

get into, but I realized

38:38

that actually, just in prepping

38:40

for this, that what I

38:43

really love is like psychedelic

38:45

and vintage and like neo-psychodelic.

38:47

I found this group called

38:49

Vanishing Twin, I heard on

38:51

KALX. Another

38:58

group called Magic and Threes. There's

39:00

an old group called Female Species

39:02

that like recorded one album in

39:05

Southern California in like 1968 or

39:07

something. It was like three white

39:09

women in this Asian woman like

39:11

were a garage band and the

39:13

album has such bangers on it.

39:27

And they have no listeners on

39:29

Spotify. And for me, it's like,

39:31

I really like weird psychedelic stuff.

39:33

And my friend just turned me

39:35

on to a SoundCloud playlist called

39:37

Music of the Scientific Islamic State.

39:40

But it got me thinking about

39:42

how important SoundCloud is in discovering

39:44

new music. But I find it

39:46

hard to navigate, because how do

39:48

you know if there's cool shit

39:51

on SoundCloud? How would a person

39:53

who wants to go and find

39:55

DJ sets on these things, where

39:57

would you start? Like how do

39:59

you enter into those spaces? I

40:01

think artists playlists are a huge

40:04

hack too. And it's like DJing

40:06

kind of in 2025. Because if

40:08

I like Kaleh and I go

40:10

to Kaleh's Spotify page and she

40:12

has a playlist of stuff that

40:15

she loves, this jazz, soul R&B,

40:17

what have you, psychedelia, I like

40:19

every track on there because it's

40:21

almost like a gateway drug, right?

40:23

I like this artist and so

40:25

I'm gonna already be open-minded to

40:28

what they like. And I think

40:30

that is the... the kind of

40:32

new form of DJ words. Those

40:34

are the places that I kind

40:36

of gate keep where I like

40:39

find Nala Cinefra's playlists. And

41:00

then I just pilfer and pillage

41:02

because everything's amazing here. Fontaine's DC,

41:04

for example, you get their page

41:06

and they might have a playlist

41:08

of stuff that they're really rocking

41:10

with and then it's like a

41:13

whole new world. I think that's

41:15

a better place to find things

41:17

these days. Uh-huh. Okay. Nice. What

41:19

about you, Archie? Do you have

41:21

like places you go to like

41:24

get recommendations from specific tastemakers besides

41:26

your nephew? Yeah. You know, a

41:28

couple of the podcasts, I like,

41:30

there's bands playing, which goes super

41:32

deep. Yeah, I mean, like three

41:34

hours deep on bands like Oasis.

41:37

That was, for me, I extract

41:39

like influences from that. So you

41:41

start to learn about like crowd

41:43

rock. And I got deep and

41:45

I was like, oh, okay, what's

41:47

can all about? You start to

41:50

go, again, new music that's not

41:52

new, but it's new and it

41:54

sounds amazing. But so for me,

41:56

it was learning more about the

41:58

bands I love. at an obsessive

42:01

level and in picking up some

42:03

of the influences that they had.

42:05

I think one... last thing for

42:07

me is going to other countries.

42:09

There's a whole scene of music.

42:11

So IJ, there's so many like,

42:14

um, Silica Gel in Korea, a

42:16

psychedelic rock band. Yeah. You might

42:18

not understand the language, but it's

42:20

like. Why not go to Korea?

42:22

Why not go to Peru and

42:24

see what's up? And that takes

42:27

some Googling, that takes some search

42:29

on YouTube, what have you. But

42:31

then it's like, I think what

42:33

I've found a lot of success

42:35

on my channels is that I

42:38

kind of very simply would go,

42:40

hey, you'd like Tam Impala, and

42:42

you like, you know, you like

42:44

this and that, how about this

42:46

artist from Japan? And people are

42:48

like... Oh wow, I never even

42:51

thought to look there. And it's

42:53

like, well yeah, there's a whole

42:55

industry. That's where it's like a

42:57

treasure trove. If you type in

42:59

like Korean psych, there's a playlist,

43:01

there'll be stuff and you'll find

43:04

stuff. And then it's like, that's

43:06

a whole new rabbit hole, whole

43:08

new country. I love this idea

43:10

of you doing this little parlor

43:12

trick of like hearing people's influences

43:15

and then giving them a recommendation.

43:17

You heard that Breeze, some of

43:19

the bands that you're into right

43:21

now, I wonder if Derek you'd

43:23

be willing to try and make

43:25

a recommendation of where Bree could

43:28

look to find more. Oh my

43:30

God. I really like Sylvan Eso.

43:32

It's an electronic pop that have

43:34

kind of a root in folk

43:36

music. Gosh. Most of their songs

43:38

are about dancing. Okay, well, this

43:41

one, I don't know. This answer

43:43

is obvious or not. There's a

43:45

band called, I can't say it

43:47

out loud, but FC, UK, ERS,

43:49

a duo out of New York

43:52

that are absolutely blowing up that

43:54

it's like dance pop. They're like

43:56

a festival band that harkens back

43:58

to kind of Eurodance. and

44:01

they're already like playing at Coachella

44:03

and things so that they absolutely

44:05

moving so quickly they only released

44:08

their first single just a year

44:10

ago and they're already like playing

44:12

at Coachella and things so that's

44:15

one that I listened to a

44:17

lot that I listened to a

44:19

lot that I'm very excited about

44:22

so maybe that one. Okay, now

44:24

do me, do me. So I

44:26

just realize that I, like in

44:29

prepping for the show, that I

44:31

really like weird neo-psychodelic stuff that

44:33

goes into like sort of long

44:36

psych rock breaks, especially if it's

44:38

vintagey. I've like gotten into all

44:40

the Nigerian psychedelic, all the African

44:43

psychedelic coming into like some of

44:45

the Islamic psychedelic now stuff that

44:48

feels weird and underground. Where would

44:50

you direct me to look? Vintage.

44:52

Long, obviously you would have spent

44:55

some time with Eve's tumor, right?

44:57

Uh-huh, yeah. I'm trying to think

44:59

of really, really, like, long and

45:02

luxurious, um, psych. I want to

45:04

make it a good one, that's

45:06

all. I don't want to choose

45:09

anything to, to obvious. There's an

45:11

artist called, um, Kim Jong Me,

45:13

Korean. psychedelic artists who put out

45:16

stuff in the 70s. That's really

45:18

beautiful. There's a track on there

45:20

that's really stunning high-name-H-A-E-N-I-M. There's some

45:23

great Korean psychedelia from the late

45:25

60s as well. I love that.

45:27

Which is worth spending time on.

45:30

I like that. I like that.

45:32

I can't wait to check that

45:34

out. Awesome. I mean, I really

45:37

like what you said about the

45:39

fact that, you know, the tastemaker

45:42

is someone who does all this

45:44

work for us and then shares

45:46

their findings. It's... real service and

45:49

I'm really happy that you you

45:51

know that you did that here

45:53

with us today. Oh my pleasure

45:56

it's what it's what I do

45:58

for a living if more people

46:00

listen to more music you know

46:03

yeah it's it's a good day

46:05

for me yeah and then RJ

46:07

and Bree, I'm so happy that

46:10

you got a chance to come

46:12

with us and share your wisdom

46:14

and your tips and, you know,

46:17

stand in for our listeners who

46:19

are always looking for ways to

46:21

break out of the algorithm and

46:24

go back to discovering music in

46:26

like a way that they love.

46:28

So thanks for being here. Thanks.

46:31

Thanks for having me. It was

46:33

a lot of fun. A

46:42

huge thank you to Derek G

46:44

for helping us to dig through

46:46

the digital stacks and find the

46:48

hidden gold in the stream. Find

46:50

out more about him and all

46:52

the ways to follow him online

46:54

at his site derekg.com. That's d-e-r-r-i-c-k-g-e-e.com.

46:56

And of course a huge thanks

46:58

to RJ and Brie for joining

47:00

us and for all the listeners

47:02

who reached out with their own

47:04

tips for finding new music. A

47:06

quick shout out to our listener

47:08

Matt, who likes to scan the

47:10

posters of new music festivals and

47:12

research the artists he hasn't heard

47:14

of yet. And to our listener

47:16

Alicia, who put us on to

47:18

two of her favorite DJs out

47:20

of Pittsburgh. DJ Mike Canton and

47:22

DJ Selecta. Go check them out.

47:24

By the way, speaking of discovering

47:26

new things, we found RJ and

47:28

Bree through another slate podcast. Hit

47:30

Parade. They are fans of that

47:32

show and I think you might

47:34

enjoy it too. Pop chart analyst

47:36

Chris Milamfi takes you on a

47:38

journey through music history using storytelling,

47:40

trivia, and song snippets. On the

47:42

latest episode, Chris is talking about

47:44

the forgotten hits of the 1960s.

47:46

So check it out. Look for

47:48

hit parade wherever you find your

47:50

podcasts. And do you have a

47:52

problem that needs solving? Send us

47:54

a note at how-to-it-slate.com or leave

47:56

us a voicemail at 646-495-0. and

47:58

we might have you on the

48:00

show. And if you like what

48:02

you heard today, please give us

48:05

a rating and a review and

48:07

tell a friend and send this

48:09

episode to someone you know who

48:11

is looking for new music. Do

48:13

it right now, because that helps

48:15

us help more people. How To

48:17

Was Produced by Rosie Belsen, who

48:19

have late has been listening to

48:21

instrumental music featuring the West African

48:23

instrument, the Cora. Our producer Kevin

48:25

Bendis just discovered the band Feeble

48:27

Little Horse. Joe Myers are supervising

48:29

producer and just this morning he

48:31

tried out the first track on

48:33

guitarist Jeff Parker's new album and

48:35

he's really looking forward to the

48:37

rest. And our senior technical director

48:39

merit Jacob not only composed our

48:41

theme music but he's been diving

48:43

into the back catalog of the

48:45

late Roberta Flack and is really

48:47

into Judy's cell right now. Charles

48:49

Dewig created the show Courtney Martin

48:51

is my co-host and I'm Carvo

48:53

Wallace. Thanks for listening. I'm

49:09

Leon Nefak, and I'm the host of

49:11

Slow Burn Watergate. Before I started working

49:13

on this show, everything I knew about

49:15

Watergate came from the movie All the

49:18

Presidents Men. Do you remember how it

49:20

ends? Woodward and Bernstein are sitting with

49:22

their typewriters clacking away. And then there's

49:25

this rapid montage of newspaper stories about

49:27

campaign aids and White House officials getting

49:29

convicted of crimes, about audio tapes coming

49:31

out that proved Nixon's involvement in the

49:34

cover-up. The last story we see is

49:36

Nixon resigning. It takes

49:38

a little over a minute in the movie. In real life

49:40

it took about two years. Five men were arrested early Saturday

49:42

while trying to install eavesdropping equipment. It's known as the Watergate

49:44

incident. What was it like to experience those two years in

49:46

real time? What were people thinking and feeling as the break-in

49:48

at Democratic Party headquarters went from a weird little caper to

49:51

a constitutional crisis that brought... down the president. The downfall of

49:53

downfall of Richard Nixon was

49:55

stranger, wilder, and more exciting than

49:57

you can imagine. Over the Over

49:59

the course of eight episodes, show is

50:01

this show is going to

50:03

capture what it was like to

50:05

live through the greatest political

50:07

scandal of the scandal of the 20th With

50:10

today's headlines once again full

50:12

of corruption, of collusion, and dirty

50:14

tricks, dirty it's time for another

50:16

look at the gate that started

50:18

it all. started it Subscribe to to

50:20

slow burn now, wherever you get your

50:22

podcasts. podcasts.