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season four, How to Talk to People, and

0:40

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Community. Building a Building a network of

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0:49

and producer Becca investigate how

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to slow down down

0:53

build meaningful connections. I

1:06

think what I've I think

1:08

what I've observed in public

1:10

spaces, especially in my really

1:12

is really just a

1:14

hustle and a... people people

1:17

are. somewhere specific to do

1:19

something do with

1:22

with specific people.

1:24

sort sort of on a mission, right? right?

1:26

Efficiency is the enemy

1:28

of social life. What kind of

1:30

place would allow us to enjoy

1:32

our lives and enjoy each other

1:34

more than we do today? today?

1:43

know, people say like, misery loves company. I

1:45

just, I don't think that is true. I

1:47

I think think that is true I think that

1:49

a lot of ways a lot

1:51

company, requires it it

1:53

requires community so that you

1:55

are not isolated. are not your

1:58

in your pain What

2:01

kinds of things would we

2:03

need to reorient our society

2:06

around? I'm Julie Beck, a

2:08

senior editor at The Atlantic,

2:10

and I'm Becca Rashid, producer

2:12

of the How-2 series. This

2:14

is How to Talk to

2:17

People. Though

2:21

I normally am not making a

2:23

friend at the cafe, recently there

2:25

was a girl that was working

2:27

on her laptop, she noticed I

2:29

was too, we started chitin' and

2:31

chatin', and after a few weeks

2:33

of running into each other so

2:36

many times at the cafe, she

2:38

finally, slightly awkwardly asked yesterday, hey,

2:40

do you mind if I get

2:42

your number if you maybe wanted

2:44

to get a drink? very friendly,

2:46

sweet sort of way of fighting

2:48

through the awkward and just asking

2:51

for the contact info. So it

2:53

was bold. Even then, I could

2:55

tell that people were sort of

2:57

observing our interaction and being like,

2:59

what's happening there? There are two

3:01

strangers who just sort of started

3:03

chatting at this table and it's

3:06

because obviously the space is not

3:08

designed for the formation of new

3:10

relationships. It's more so just, we're

3:12

all here doing our thing in

3:14

our neighborhood. Yeah, yeah, that's the

3:16

thing. It's hard because of course

3:18

like people do connect at cafes

3:21

like you literally just did. And

3:23

you know, in Paris or whatever,

3:25

they may be happy for people

3:27

to linger and chat all day.

3:29

But I think the connection that's

3:31

happening in those spaces, like that's

3:33

not the purpose of the space.

3:36

That's a byproduct. Perhaps a welcome

3:38

byproduct, but like the point of

3:40

the space is to make money.

3:42

The point is to sell you

3:44

something. It's a business. They're selling

3:46

you a coffee. They're selling you

3:48

a sandwich. There's several cafes in

3:51

DC that I really like that

3:53

just don't offer Wi-Fi. Or they

3:55

give you a ticket where you.

3:57

have a a

3:59

couple of hours.

4:01

of -Fi after. Do you buy

4:03

something? And I get why they're doing

4:05

that because they want the customers

4:07

to cycle through and they don't want

4:09

people taking up tables all day

4:11

when could get a fresh paying customer

4:13

in there. That may well be

4:16

good business sense, but if those are

4:18

the only spaces that you have

4:20

to maybe just mingle and get to

4:22

know people that are in your

4:24

neighborhood, where are the spaces? What are

4:26

the spaces where you can just

4:28

have friendly mingling and that's the point. Eric

4:37

Kleinberg is a researcher who's really

4:39

into all of these questions that

4:41

we've been talking about. He's a

4:43

professor of sociology at New York

4:45

University and he's an expert on

4:47

city infrastructure and urban life. He

4:49

wrote this book called Palaces for

4:51

the People in which he talks

4:53

about this concept called social infrastructure.

4:56

structure. That is

4:58

essentially the physical spaces that

5:00

are available to the

5:02

public that are designed to

5:04

facilitate these social connections. If

5:11

you want to have a transit

5:13

system, like a train, you need

5:16

an infrastructure to carry the train,

5:18

right? The rails, for instance. There

5:20

also an infrastructure that supports social

5:22

life. social infrastructure. And

5:24

when I say social

5:26

infrastructure, I'm referring to physical

5:28

places. they can be organizations,

5:30

it could also be parks, physical

5:32

places that shape our capacity to interact.

5:34

When you have strong social infrastructure,

5:37

people have a tendency to come out

5:39

and linger. And if you live

5:41

in a poor neighborhood where the social

5:43

infrastructure is strong, if you're older,

5:45

if you're more frail, if you're very

5:47

young, you might spend more time

5:49

sitting on the stoop in front of

5:51

your home. You might have a

5:53

bench that you spend time on that's

5:55

on your street. There might be

5:57

a diner where you go every day.

6:00

What that means is there are people who

6:02

are used to seeing you out in those

6:04

public places those on a regular basis. on a And

6:06

when it's dangerous outside, someone

6:08

might notice that you're not there. that you're

6:10

not there. they might not even know your name.

6:12

They might just know your face. Maybe they

6:14

know where you live. where you live. used to

6:16

seeing each other in the public realm. realm.

6:18

I grew up in Chicago, and

6:21

in 1995, I was just before I

6:23

was about to start graduate school

6:25

in sociology, there there was a

6:27

heat wave that hit my hometown. It

6:29

lasted just a just a couple of

6:31

days, but the temperatures were quite

6:33

extreme. got to about got degrees. 106 degrees.

6:36

Chicago did what it always does

6:38

when there's a heat wave. It

6:40

turned on air conditioning everywhere you

6:42

could go, you could go.

6:44

And the power grid got overwhelmed. very

6:46

soon the, you know, went out

6:48

for thousands of homes. of At the

6:51

end of this week in July, Chicago

6:53

had more than 700 deaths from

6:55

the heat. And this was, so know, was,

6:57

the pre dying in a city So a dying

6:59

in a city in a couple

7:01

of days seemed like an exceptional thing.

7:03

We hadn't gotten to to it yet.

7:05

I was I was really curious about

7:07

what had happened. And the first thing

7:10

I did is thing I these maps

7:12

to see which people and places in

7:14

Chicago were hardest And at first blush, the map looked map

7:16

looked exactly like you would expect

7:18

it to look The neighborhoods that

7:20

were hit the hardest were on

7:22

the south side and the west

7:25

side of and were the side of know

7:27

historically segregated segregated, black, poor, neighborhoods.

7:29

Right. Chicago's extremely

7:32

segregated. And when there's

7:34

a disaster poor people living in segregated

7:36

neighborhoods will fare the worst. will fare I

7:38

looked a little more closely at the

7:40

map more I noticed something that no one

7:42

else had seen which is that. one else

7:44

were a bunch of is that there were a bunch

7:46

of neighborhoods that right next to

7:49

places that were among the deadliest

7:51

neighborhoods in Chicago. But

7:53

there's other set of places set of

7:55

up being. wound up being healthy. healthy.

7:58

So these were that were were really

8:00

close to each other and shared a

8:02

lot of characteristics, but they were having

8:04

really different outcomes. outcomes. neighborhoods, like

8:07

imagine two neighborhoods separated by

8:09

one street, same level

8:11

of poverty, same proportion

8:13

of older people. The

8:15

risk factors that we ordinarily look

8:17

for for were equal. they had wildly

8:20

but they had wildly disparate outcomes in

8:22

this heat disaster. the kind of the kind

8:24

of puzzle that you live for

8:26

when social scientist. a so what I

8:28

observed is that is the neighborhoods that

8:30

had really high death rates, death rates They

8:32

looked depleted. They They had lost enormous

8:34

proportion of their population in the

8:37

decades leading up to the heat wave.

8:39

They They had a lot of

8:41

abandoned buildings. They had empty They had empty

8:43

The sidewalks were broken. were They

8:45

didn't have a lot of strong

8:47

community organizations that had resources to

8:50

put up impressive operations. up Even the

8:52

little Even were in terrible shape,

8:54

not well terrible shape, not well maintained.

8:56

across the the the that

8:59

did better, did better, public spaces.

9:01

spaces were much more viable. They

9:03

didn't have abandoned homes. They didn't

9:05

have empty lots. have There were

9:07

community institutions, grocery shops,

9:09

coffee shops, a branch library,

9:11

places that anchored public life.

9:13

In those neighborhoods in Chicago,

9:16

people knocked on the door. on

9:18

the door. And they they in on each

9:20

other. other. And a a consequence, if you if you

9:22

lived in one of these poor neighborhoods

9:24

that had a strong social infrastructure, you

9:26

were more likely to survive the

9:29

heat wave. the heat wave. People in the the neighborhood

9:31

across the street, the neighborhood, they were

9:33

10 times more likely to die

9:35

in the heat wave. the heat wave. And

9:37

that difference was was really quite stark. So

9:43

you said we we talk about

9:45

regular infrastructure, we're talking about.

9:47

we're talking carries the train,

9:50

right? train, So what carries

9:52

the train of our

9:54

relationships? What are the actual...

9:56

railroad tracks. tracks? Think about

9:58

a playground. For instance,

10:00

we know that one of the

10:02

core places that families go

10:04

to meet other families in their

10:06

neighborhood, is a playground that all kinds

10:09

of socializing that happens when parents

10:11

or grandparents or caretakers of all kinds

10:13

are pushing a swing and looking

10:15

for a companion, someone to talk to.

10:17

Those conversations at the swing set

10:19

often lead to a shared little break

10:21

together on the bench or maybe

10:23

to a picnic and then a play

10:25

date and then two families getting

10:28

to know each other and communities growing.

10:30

If you took playgrounds out of American

10:33

cities, and suddenly there no

10:35

playground, our social lives would

10:37

be radically different. Now take

10:39

away our schools, take schools,

10:42

away our zoos, our museums,

10:44

our libraries, piece by piece,

10:46

we would erode our capacity

10:48

to share space and engage

10:51

one another. And we haven't

10:53

exactly had a demolition plan

10:55

to get rid of. shared

10:57

public spaces in America over the last

11:00

several decades? but In

11:02

a lot of places, we haven't done

11:04

much to update them or improve them or

11:06

build new ones. You

11:08

can build a social infrastructure

11:10

that's very exclusive and that

11:12

also leads to fragmentation and

11:14

distrust. So for instance, like

11:17

the country club. That's an amazing

11:19

social infrastructure, like the best social

11:21

infrastructure that your money can buy,

11:23

and it's likely to make you surrounded

11:25

by people who are just

11:27

as elite as you are. We

11:29

act as if in the

11:31

Old Testament on the fifth day,

11:33

God said, today I give

11:36

you the playground and the library

11:38

and it's our birthright to

11:40

spend time in them. We forget

11:42

that these are achievements, these

11:44

are human inventions, right? We built

11:46

giant parks, theaters, art spaces.

11:48

We created a good society based

11:50

on a vision of radical

11:53

inclusion. not quite radical

11:55

enough. People have always been left out

11:57

of our public spaces. There's no history of

11:59

this. idea that is complete if it

12:01

doesn't pay attention to how racial

12:03

segregation works and how racial violence works

12:05

and how gender excluded some people

12:08

from some public realms. All of that

12:10

stuff is there in the history

12:12

of public space. I think in the

12:14

last several decades we've kind of

12:16

come to take all these places for

12:18

granted. What

12:26

is the connection between having places

12:28

to just hang out in

12:30

vibe and having a community rally

12:32

together and support each other

12:34

in an emergency like a heat

12:37

wave? Well, you

12:39

know, doesn't lead to the other.

12:41

You can have places where

12:43

people hang out in vibe

12:45

and don't get active and

12:47

engaged on important civic matters.

12:49

I generally argue that public

12:51

spaces and social infrastructure. they're

12:54

a necessary condition for having some sense

12:56

that we're in it together, and

12:58

we have some kind of common purpose,

13:00

but they're by no means sufficient.

13:02

In my book, I write about the

13:05

work of a sociologist named Mario

13:07

Small, who studied daycare facilities for young

13:09

children. And he compared a very

13:11

modern daycare facility that was set up

13:13

for busy working parents who were

13:15

in a hurry and needed a place

13:17

that was efficient and who could

13:20

drop off their kids and seamlessly get

13:22

back on the street and get work

13:24

and he compared that to a

13:26

daycare center. that

13:28

worked in the old -fashioned model. parents were

13:30

expected to be in the room for five

13:32

or 10 minutes and to do a little

13:34

bit of volunteer work. There was a kind

13:36

of shared physical space that they had to

13:39

go through every day. And what he found

13:41

is that people who were in

13:43

the first place, they got to work

13:45

more quickly. They just didn't get to

13:47

know each other all that well. Whereas

13:49

people in the second place, they built

13:51

up all these relationships. Parents were sending

13:53

their tiny child, the person about whom

13:55

they cared more than anything or anyone

13:57

else in the world, to the home

13:59

of a relative - stranger the park with

14:01

a relative stranger stranger quickly were able

14:03

to develop this sense of being

14:05

in it together with someone who's

14:07

in many cases very much unlike

14:09

them. much And so them and so has

14:11

to do with programming, that has

14:13

to do with design, with that

14:15

has to do with this feeling

14:18

of being being part of a shared

14:20

project and some public spaces give

14:22

us that feeling and others really

14:24

don't. Yeah, I'm I'm curious

14:26

about the mechanics of how that

14:28

even happens. mean, maybe it's because

14:30

I don't have children and I

14:32

don't go to the playground, but

14:34

I feel a bit of a

14:37

divide where being in public is

14:39

for being active and relaxing is for

14:41

home. so And so much of

14:43

the public space around me is

14:45

people are bustling, people are engaging

14:47

in in commerce or just walking from here

14:50

to there from here to there, They're not.

14:52

not... opportunities to slow down and

14:54

talk to each other each don't know

14:56

that we would? we would? Yeah, I mean. I

14:58

mean. Does that make sense? It makes perfect

15:01

sense because because Efficiency is

15:03

the enemy of social life. life. You

15:05

you tend to enrich your social

15:07

life when you stop and

15:09

linger. and waste time. in fact,

15:11

one time. And in

15:13

fact, one of the really striking things, I

15:15

think for Americans we travel to other

15:17

countries, is to see the extent to which

15:20

people all over the world, over the world

15:22

delight sitting sitting around,

15:24

you know, culture of the or of

15:26

the the coffee shop or the

15:28

wine bar or the you have Oh

15:30

yeah, you have dinners in France. Like

15:32

you can't find that waiter to get

15:34

your check, you know? you know? He's gone. Because

15:36

the the point is not to pay

15:38

the the check, is to be there. there.

15:42

And it's hard hard

15:44

for us to come

15:46

to terms with

15:48

just how forcefully the

15:50

ticking clock shapes

15:53

our capacity to take

15:55

pleasure in social

15:57

life. It's

16:00

interesting that you see the no

16:02

Wi-Fi on the weekends as a

16:04

way to cycle people out of

16:06

the space. I thought that was

16:08

the cafe or coffee shop making

16:10

a grand gesture in favor of

16:12

relationship building. Oh, I guess I'm

16:14

just more cynical than you. I

16:16

mean, this isn't Luke Steiner on

16:18

Gilmore Girls, right, with his like

16:20

no cell phone sign. You know,

16:22

that's a very optimistic way to

16:24

look at it, but I think

16:26

it's because they need to make

16:29

money. You know, I go to

16:31

the public pool with friends, I

16:33

get books from the library, there

16:35

is a very hot ticket at

16:37

our local library, which is like

16:39

a semi-regular puzzle swap that they

16:41

do. And my partner in it

16:43

were very cool. We go and

16:45

we swap puzzles with the community.

16:47

But I don't feel like I

16:49

am really building new relationships or

16:51

getting to know my neighbors at

16:53

these places or even at these

16:55

events. I love these resources. I

16:57

don't want to lose them. I

16:59

enjoy them. But I just kind

17:01

of use them by myself or

17:03

with people I already know. Maybe

17:06

I make a little light chit-chat

17:08

at the puzzle swap, but I'm

17:10

not making new friends there. And

17:12

I think it would feel pretty

17:14

weird if I tried to. You

17:16

know, I definitely see what Eric

17:18

is saying in the sense that

17:20

certain spaces are much more amenable

17:22

to connection than other places. Like

17:24

there's no doubt that there's way

17:26

more potential at the library puzzle

17:28

swap for connection than there is

17:30

at like the McDonald's drive-through. But

17:32

I still feel like there's a

17:34

barrier of politeness or a norm

17:36

of keeping to yourself that keeps

17:38

that potential from being fully realized.

17:40

Yeah, and I think the norm

17:42

of keeping to yourself is only

17:45

fueled more by things like social

17:47

media and being able to look

17:49

away and be on your phone.

17:51

Weirdly, during the pandemic, I'm the

17:53

least social media savvy person of

17:55

all time, like on Facebook, talk

17:57

to my grandma on there, that's

17:59

like the extent of my knowledge.

18:01

But I really felt like I

18:03

needed social media. survive at certain

18:05

points during the pandemic because it

18:07

became the main platform for my

18:09

social life. It's interesting how just

18:11

that shared physical presence with people

18:13

also doesn't necessarily mean that we're

18:15

closer. Yeah, just because you go

18:17

to the cafe doesn't mean you're

18:19

going to look up from your

18:21

phone. Yes. Do

18:27

you think that to some degree we've

18:29

replaced our relationship to social infrastructure with

18:31

social media? I think of social media

18:33

as like a communications infrastructure. It definitely

18:35

helps us to engage other people. It's

18:38

a kind of impoverished social life that

18:40

it delivers in the end. Think about

18:42

how life felt in April of 2020

18:44

when we were in the beginning of

18:47

the pandemic because we were all in

18:49

our homes cut off from each other.

18:51

We were talking to each other all

18:53

the time, right? We're on Face Time.

18:55

We're on Skype. We talked to everybody,

18:58

we didn't talk to before, we weren't

19:00

exactly socially isolated, right? But we were

19:02

physically isolated and we were miserable. So

19:04

that's life where social media is social

19:06

infrastructure. I do wonder whether there is

19:09

an individualism that is also affecting our

19:11

living choices and the way that we

19:13

engage with the social infrastructure. Can I

19:15

tell you something amazing? Please, I love

19:18

to be amazed. I discovered that the

19:20

United States is a laggard. not a

19:22

leader when it comes to living alone.

19:24

Living alone is far more common in

19:26

most European societies than it is in

19:29

the US. It's more common in Japan.

19:31

It's more common in France and England.

19:33

Scandinavian societies have the highest levels of

19:35

living alone on earth. Germany's higher than

19:37

the United States. And what I learned

19:40

about doing this research is that what

19:42

really is driving, living alone, is interdependence.

19:44

When you have a strong welfare state

19:46

and you guarantee people the capacity to

19:48

make ends meet without being tethered to

19:51

a partner, they might not want

19:53

to be with. You

19:55

give people the

19:57

choice to live the

20:00

way that feels

20:02

best to them at

20:04

that moment. moment. you

20:06

think then that the that the

20:08

rely on social infrastructure

20:10

more? more? They do, they're more

20:12

likely to go out to bars

20:15

and restaurants cafes and to go to gyms, go

20:17

to gyms, to go to concerts. publish

20:19

a paper in a a paper in a

20:21

journal called a Problems with a

20:23

graduate student named and we and we

20:25

interviewed 55 people who were living

20:27

alone in New York during the

20:29

first stage of the pandemic. We talked

20:31

to them about their experiences and

20:33

it was really interesting. really They

20:35

talked very little about social isolation isolation,

20:37

they didn't complain that much about

20:39

that of conventional loneliness like loneliness, like lacking...

20:41

people to talk to, but

20:43

they felt physically lonely. They

20:45

felt They isolated and they really

20:47

And they really missed the of familiar strangers

20:49

we see when we spend time in time

20:52

in a give us a sense of you

20:54

know where we are and that we belong

20:56

we are felt we belong. kind of pain that

20:58

was slightly different than the pain of the

21:00

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21:02

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21:04

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to learn more about the

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seed-to-smile journey. One

21:38

of of the problems we have

21:40

now is cities, cities, in suburbs,

21:42

towns in America. there. There's

21:44

neighborhood libraries The There's neighborhood

21:46

libraries. The buildings are The building is

21:48

there. The buildings are generally not updated. They

21:50

They need to have new They need new

21:52

bathrooms, they need new furniture, let alone new

21:54

books. accessible to not accessible to people in

21:57

wheelchairs. I mean, there's all kinds of problems

21:59

with libraries. just just physically

22:01

because we've -invested in them. in them.

22:03

But But libraries, unfortunately, have become

22:05

the place of place of last resort for

22:07

everyone who falls through the safety net. in the

22:09

morning you wake up in the morning in

22:11

the American you don't you don't have a

22:13

home. told to go to a told to go to a library.

22:15

up in If you wake up in the morning and you're

22:17

suffering from an addiction problem, you need a warm place.

22:20

a warm place. they'll send you to you library. If you

22:22

you need to use a bathroom, you'll go

22:24

to a library. go to a If you don't have care

22:26

for your kid, you might send your kid

22:28

to a library. If you're old and you're alone,

22:30

you might go to a library. alone, We've used

22:32

the library. We've to try

22:34

to solve all these problems

22:36

that deserve actual treatment. actual treatment.

22:39

how many times have you talked to

22:41

someone you talked to basically a homeless shelter? basically a

22:43

happened is we've stigmatized. is we've

22:46

are public spaces. spaces. because

22:48

we've done so done so little

22:50

to address core problems that

22:52

we've turned them into. into spaces

22:54

of of last resort for people

22:57

who need a hand need a

22:59

as we do that that, we send

23:01

another message to affluent affluent middle -class Americans

23:03

and that is that is, if

23:05

you want a gathering place place,

23:07

build build your own the the private

23:09

sector. So we have a lot have

23:11

a lot of work to do. do. Yeah, if you're Yeah, if

23:13

you're always being a crisis you don't

23:15

you have energy for other

23:18

things. No, and and librarians are overwhelmed. have

23:20

They have these kind of superpowers are

23:22

capable of helping in all these ways. in

23:24

But all you know, if you go

23:26

and talk to libraries you go and talk library

23:28

systems. in urban They have more to chew on

23:30

than they can. to chew on than they can possibly

23:32

through. through. It's really

23:34

interesting to me to hear

23:36

about the ways our environment either

23:39

encourages or discourages interaction and

23:41

community building I think on some

23:43

level I've always felt like if

23:45

I don't have that ideal

23:47

sense of community that I really

23:49

want, then it's my fault for

23:51

not trying hard enough. How much of

23:54

this much of this is just

23:56

on the government there's not much

23:58

we can do besides like pestering alderman?

24:00

it's on us to build the political

24:02

institutions that we want and also to

24:04

build the public places that we need.

24:06

So one of the miracles of American

24:09

life is that we have these public

24:11

libraries in every neighborhood. And it makes

24:13

you think, like, how do we get

24:15

these things? Right? Like, if you went

24:17

to the governor of New York right

24:20

now, who's a Democrat and calls herself

24:22

a progressive and the library didn't exist,

24:24

And you said, like, could you build

24:26

a building in every neighborhood in New

24:28

York and fill those buildings with, you

24:30

know, books and videos and computers and

24:33

comfortable furniture, tell people that they're welcome

24:35

five, six, seven days a week in

24:37

some places. The buildings are going to

24:39

be staffed by librarians who are public

24:41

employees. People can take the stuff out.

24:43

for free and to make sure they

24:46

bring it back. We'll use the honor

24:48

system. If we didn't have a library

24:50

already, if we hadn't invented that, do

24:52

you think any governor in America would

24:54

support that idea? Like no chance. No

24:56

chance and have it. Holly Parton would

24:59

do it, but I don't know if

25:01

they would. Nobody would support the idea

25:03

of a library if we didn't already

25:05

have it. It's like a utopian socialist

25:07

fantasy, the library. And the miracle is

25:10

that we have them. If you think

25:12

about the American public park system, the

25:14

public schools, like we built all these

25:16

things. The reason so many of us

25:18

feel like it's so hard to hang

25:20

out and enjoy the companionship of other

25:23

people is because the signals we get

25:25

from each other and from the state

25:27

and from the corporate world tell us

25:29

that we're freakish and weird if we

25:31

want that kind of collective experience. Everybody

25:33

knows happiness is in your phone. It's

25:36

at the $22 cocktail bar. It's at

25:38

the $9 coffee shop, the $14 ice

25:40

cream cone. Those are the things that

25:42

are supposed to give us pleasure. I

25:44

think we need to start to imagine

25:46

what a different kind of society might

25:49

look like. how to rebuild

25:51

public spaces that

25:53

are the 21st century

25:55

version of the

25:57

20th century What are the

26:00

What are the kinds

26:02

of places we'd

26:04

like to design so

26:06

that we could

26:08

be with each other

26:10

differently? Another

26:15

important piece, piece, to actually finding community

26:17

in these spaces is people acting

26:19

on the opportunity to connect that they

26:21

present. that they hard if I'm going

26:24

to the puzzle to the no one's talking

26:26

to each other. to each other. I

26:28

I'm guilty of going in, grabbing my puzzles

26:30

and getting out and not really making

26:32

a big effort to a big effort to and make

26:34

a new relationship there. there. Right,

26:36

so it's like on top of the

26:38

physical space designed to bring people together,

26:40

you also need that. You of

26:43

mingling and lingering. and

26:45

lingering. So now in the place,

26:47

the library, wherever it may

26:49

be. it may be, now something something

26:51

needs to come after that. Yeah, and

26:53

it's it's hard to feel like you're

26:55

just taking that on yourself to

26:57

try to make that happen. It's also,

26:59

do you see people welcoming you? Do

27:01

Do you feel comfortable going up to

27:03

someone to strike up a conversation? up

27:05

a Do you see other people mingling?

27:07

mingling? The The design of a place

27:10

can totally encourage or discourage interactions, but

27:12

obviously so can the the of the

27:14

people in the place. in the place. Right,

27:16

like the friend I made at the

27:18

cafe is kind of a rare occurrence

27:20

because normally people in the cafe

27:22

are the cafe are reading, or as you've

27:24

said before, with people they already know.

27:26

they already know. Yeah, and social norms of a

27:28

cafe are going to be different

27:30

than the social norms of a public

27:32

pool or, you know, a local

27:34

sports team or a church. a church. In

27:36

a cafe, everyone kind of has

27:38

different agendas like Like, out there making

27:40

a friend, but a people are just

27:43

reading a book by themselves or having

27:45

that one on by lunch with somebody, having

27:47

but in a church, for instance, with

27:49

like generally speaking, in a a norm

27:51

that we want to be in community

27:53

with each other. a We have shared

27:55

values and we're here to connect. with

27:57

each other. We have church has been we're here to

27:59

connect. me because those relationships have just

28:02

been so transformative and so deep

28:04

every single highlight in my life

28:06

or low light the church my

28:08

church has been there for me.

28:10

Kelly Carter Jackson is a historian

28:12

and a professor from Wellesley College

28:14

and we recently spoke about the

28:16

culture of care in her community.

28:18

So in her life she's found

28:20

that places like the church and

28:22

her kids' school have smoothed that

28:24

path to building those deep relationships

28:27

of support because both the spaces

28:29

themselves and the people in them

28:31

have been welcoming. Do

28:34

you feel like finding a church

28:36

in the new places where you've

28:38

moved to has that helped in

28:40

getting to those deep relationships quickly?

28:42

Yes, absolutely. I will say that

28:45

when we lived in North Dakota,

28:47

almost all of my friendships either

28:49

came from the military or the

28:51

church that we were going to.

28:53

People were just so warm and

28:55

so kind and you would join

28:57

like a Bible study group or

29:00

a mommy and me group and

29:02

those became fast friendships. When my

29:04

husband was going through extensive training

29:06

and he was in Memphis, he

29:08

was out of town for like

29:10

three months and I was overwhelmed

29:12

by three kids, they did a

29:14

meal train and just brought, I

29:17

hate cooking. And

29:19

so my church small group was

29:21

like, hey, how can we take

29:23

off some of the burdens? And

29:25

since Nathaniel's gone, what can we

29:27

do? And I was like, I

29:29

just need meals. And so just

29:31

to know that people would go

29:33

the extra mile for you when

29:35

you're really taxed is huge. Yeah,

29:38

I guess I see, you know,

29:40

church is sort of a natural

29:42

gathering place because it has those

29:44

kind of communal values like built

29:46

into the institution. How does your

29:48

faith sort of influence your approach

29:50

to community with your neighbors? I

29:52

think that I have always tried

29:54

to model what it means to

29:56

be a good neighbor, regardless of

29:59

my neighbor's religious. I

30:01

I grew up in the church, so

30:03

so my parents for me for me We

30:05

always We always had people over our

30:07

house all the time. We We have

30:09

a big family, one of seven,

30:11

so it's like, what's one more? What's

30:13

six more? one more? ten more? more? on

30:15

ten more? Bring That is how

30:17

I. is how I... show my friendship, show

30:19

my love, show my care. by

30:21

It is by making you feel

30:24

welcome and by giving you a

30:26

place to rest. And it does

30:28

not always extend to... we know, like we

30:30

know, like we had good friends.

30:32

They said, hey, we know this guy.

30:34

He's a good guy. He needs

30:37

a place to crash for two months.

30:39

Yeah, sure. like most people people would be

30:41

like, is this random guy? Right. I

30:43

mean? he was he was actually was actually really

30:45

nice. His wife and kids are lovely

30:47

and they're dear friends of ours dear

30:50

I've always tried always tried

30:52

to. occupy space of

30:54

the Good Samaritan out looking

30:56

out for people who.

30:59

connection have trying trying to bring them into

31:01

the fold. that's really important

31:03

for me. Like I take friendship

31:05

very seriously. And the only

31:07

reason sometimes I feel burdened by new

31:09

friendships is because I'm like, I'm like, huh?

31:11

I don't know if I can

31:13

love you the way I wanna love

31:15

you. My I full right now. My complaint's

31:17

I take those friendships so seriously,

31:19

I don't just casually bring in new

31:21

people. Not everybody's receptive to that

31:23

and that's fine. But for those who

31:26

are, I think you can have

31:28

really deep, meaningful and that's fine. But for

31:30

those who are, I think

31:32

you can have really deep

31:34

meaningful relationships. Like

31:38

when I think of of I think that

31:40

extends even into my kid's school. my kid's

31:42

school so my -year -old had a real hard

31:44

time. hard time because not only had

31:46

my mother -in -law passed away, her

31:48

great her had died as well.

31:50

So had died big losses, mother

31:52

and a grandmother in about a

31:54

three a period. about a three-month my middle

31:56

child's name. JoJo was Joe was just

31:58

by it. it. she cried for

32:01

30 minutes and I couldn't almost I

32:03

couldn't calm her down I sent her

32:05

teacher an email and I said hey

32:07

Joe just having a really hard time

32:09

I sent her to school with a

32:12

picture of her Grandmother's she might keep

32:14

it in her backpack She might take

32:16

it out, but I just want you

32:18

to know like this is what's going

32:20

on. Yeah, and her teacher did something

32:22

Gosh, sorry, I'm going to be emotional.

32:24

Talking about it. Her teacher saw her

32:27

with the picture and she said, Children,

32:29

do you want to share that with

32:31

the classroom? And so she got up

32:33

in front of the classroom and she

32:35

talked about her grandmothers and just who

32:37

they were and like, the fact that

32:40

her teacher gave her space to do

32:42

that, she gave her a hug and

32:44

Joja was so happy, like she was

32:46

so happy to be able to share

32:48

that. It just meant like I don't

32:50

know her teacher very well, but I

32:53

know that she loves on my kid

32:55

and I know that she created space

32:57

for my kid when she was having

32:59

a hard time emotionally and that she

33:01

would do that for any kid. And

33:03

then afterwards she wrote me this long

33:05

note, like she told me everything that

33:08

happened and she was like, you know,

33:10

Joja's a wonderful kid, we're supporting her,

33:12

we're here for her. And it's just

33:14

those little things that let you know

33:16

that like when you're not around your

33:18

kids that there are giving them care.

33:21

that are giving them space, that are

33:23

listening to them and affirming their feelings.

33:25

They're really big feelings that most kindergartners

33:27

cannot articulate. Most adults can't articulate. I

33:29

am always overwhelmed by just like the

33:31

goodness of neighbors and people's capacity to

33:34

provide comfort during hard times. Sorry I

33:36

got so... No, it's really love me.

33:38

Emotional. Yeah, I said I wasn't gonna

33:40

cry now. I mean I think there's

33:42

so much go-it-aloneness in our culture a

33:44

lot of the time and like sometimes

33:47

you can get by with that,

33:49

that, seems lonely, but

33:51

like you can

33:53

do it you can do it.

33:55

but should you?

33:57

Can, but you? what

33:59

I mean? you? you

34:02

are in such a

34:04

place of intense

34:06

grief, like it becomes

34:08

very clear that

34:10

you can't. you can't

34:12

and you shouldn't. If

34:15

I hear one more person say,

34:17

say, God give you more than you

34:19

can bear. I'm like, I bear,

34:21

to punch them. want to punch them. But I

34:23

I think that like we have

34:25

these cliches that are so empty, they're

34:28

so empty. And I think that. You

34:30

know, just giving people the

34:32

freedom to feel what they feel,

34:34

to act upon those feelings

34:36

without feeling judged, to be heard,

34:38

most people just want to

34:40

be heard. You know, I think in

34:42

the black community, we

34:45

care for one another.

34:47

There is this idea of

34:49

kinship, this this idea that

34:51

blood you are blood related

34:53

or not, this is your your

34:55

this is your uncle, this is

34:57

your cousin, this is your fam, that we see

35:00

we other, each other, that we recognize

35:02

each other's humanity, that we show up

35:04

for each other. other. There are ways,

35:06

I think, I I just see how

35:08

black women interact with each other,

35:10

and we're always boosting each other. and we're

35:12

I see you love that boosting each other.

35:14

Okay, sis. a way in which black

35:16

people, we love to love on each

35:18

other. a way love to root for

35:20

everybody black. We don't know who's in

35:23

the game, but we see a

35:25

black dude, that's who we've rooting for.

35:27

You know, like, there is something

35:29

about that know of but that

35:31

connects people that is

35:33

both spiritual and cultural.

35:35

for. And And so if you grew up

35:37

in the church, I think those ideas

35:39

are fortified for you of how you should

35:41

show up and care for other people. and

35:43

care mean, how do you get to

35:45

that place how do you get to people in

35:48

your community without a church. in

35:50

your community without a

35:52

think it's tough. it's tough. I

35:55

It is tough. I think it's not impossible.

35:57

mean, there is something about. about

35:59

like shared set of values sometimes

36:01

that comes from the church that

36:03

allows making friendships to be a

36:06

little bit easier. You know, so

36:08

if you are meeting people in

36:10

the church for the most part,

36:12

you have sort of a shared

36:14

sense of like. Okay, we all

36:16

love Jesus, all right, you know,

36:18

like, that's a base point. We

36:20

all know how we should treat

36:22

each other, hopefully, you know, like,

36:25

but if you don't have that,

36:27

sometimes I think that trust can

36:29

be an issue, like I've had

36:31

to let people know who are

36:33

outside of my faith, you can

36:35

depend on me, you can trust

36:37

me, I'm not going to judge

36:39

you, that our home is welcome

36:41

to anyone of all backgrounds. Because

36:43

I think people can sometimes be

36:46

skittish around people that they think

36:48

are religious. And I never wanted

36:50

anyone that I connected with to

36:52

feel like that. I had a

36:54

friend who was in graduate school

36:56

whose mother passed away. And I

36:58

remember reaching out to her, like,

37:00

how are you doing? How are

37:02

you feeling? You know, here's some

37:05

literature that helped me because my

37:07

siblings had passed away maybe about

37:09

a year before. And she was

37:11

a little startled, actually, by my

37:13

response, I think. Because she said,

37:15

you know, I grew up in

37:17

a community of atheists. She said,

37:19

we just don't have a practice

37:21

or a tradition that the idea

37:24

of like bringing food or, you

37:26

know, sort of like ongoing care

37:28

was not something that was a

37:30

part of her tradition. So regardless

37:32

of people's faith, my job is

37:34

a good neighbor's to help shoulder

37:36

some of that weight. So you

37:38

don't have to carry it all

37:40

in your own. So I try

37:43

to remember important dates, I try

37:45

to remember names, which is why

37:47

I say when I meet new

37:49

people, I'm like, oh man, okay,

37:51

give me more capacity. So Julie,

37:53

where do you go to build

37:55

community or at least feel this

37:57

sense of community? a

37:59

shared space. I don't I

38:02

don't feel like sitting out on my out

38:04

on my front porch if I

38:06

had one a going to a cafe to

38:08

a going to a specific place to make

38:10

make community come to me. like I

38:12

feel like talking with both Eric

38:14

and Kelly kind of made me realize

38:17

realize that you need both both. of

38:19

a the design of a

38:21

place and the intentions and the

38:23

values of the people who

38:25

are using that space, the

38:27

sort of post-college secular world world

38:29

particularly doesn't feel

38:31

up for just up easy

38:35

just spontaneous, easy connection in

38:37

the same way. And if

38:39

you just have an impeccably designed

38:41

space where people don't wanna connect, then

38:43

then like, I I guess what you have

38:45

is the is the Apple store. And if people people

38:47

really want to connect and they don't

38:49

have anywhere to go to do that,

38:51

then they're gonna struggle as well. to

38:53

And even though this is kind of

38:55

a frustrating of a honestly, it feels to me

38:58

like if you want that deep that

39:00

sense of community sense of outside of a church

39:02

of college or a an institution that's built to

39:04

help you find it, you kind you kind

39:06

of have to swim against the current

39:08

a little bit and find a way

39:10

to make it for yourself. yourself. That's

39:21

all for this week's episode of

39:23

How to Talk to People. Talk

39:26

This episode was produced by me,

39:28

Rebecca by and hosted by and hosted by by

39:30

editing by Jocelyn Frank and

39:33

Claudina Bates. Fact check by

39:35

Anna Alvarado. Our engineer is

39:37

Rob Smersiak. If

39:49

you enjoyed this episode, take a

39:51

listen to season four, how to talk to

39:53

People. You You can find all

39:55

seven episodes wherever you get your

39:57

podcasts. Next

40:00

up, in our in our Best of Collection, we'll

40:02

look look at the ways we

40:04

think about productivity culture culture where

40:06

we invest our time. our time. You're

40:09

not committing to it for the whole

40:11

of the rest of your days. You

40:13

just have to take a bit of

40:15

your time now now, or very soon to

40:17

do something that matters to you, even

40:19

if it's only 10 minutes. if Even

40:22

if you are not confident that you're

40:24

going to be able to do it

40:26

every day for the next month or

40:28

anything like that, but to just that. some

40:30

of it. of it. This

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episode is brought to you by

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