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prevent any disease. Andrea

1:05

growing up, did you have

1:07

an imaginary friend? I

1:10

dare. Yeah, I

1:12

had an imaginary friend

1:14

who's they accurately robot

1:16

it.sorry I get up

1:18

really sorry. His name

1:21

was Barfield. I

1:30

definitely questioned if this imaginary friend thing

1:32

really happened. I mean with a name

1:34

high bar fi it feels like it

1:36

could be totally false memory that someone

1:39

planted in my head to mess with

1:41

me. but when has come up over

1:43

the years and conversation with my mom?

1:45

she picks maybe I was trying to

1:47

say Barbie? Oh yeah I do. You

1:50

have any memory of how he came

1:52

to be or what he looked like.

1:55

know i can't remember any of

1:57

that i just added goes just

2:00

young to really form any real

2:02

coherent memories about him. My

2:04

brother, he's six years older than me, so

2:07

I kind of wonder if I maybe made up

2:09

a friend because, you know, I was lonely when

2:11

he went away to elementary school. And

2:13

so, Barbie wasn't really real,

2:16

but Barbie was real company, and I

2:18

think I needed that type of connection

2:20

for some very real reason. Yes,

2:23

definitely. And RIP,

2:25

Barbie. I'm

2:28

Andrea Valdez. I'm an editor at The Atlantic. And

2:31

I'm Megan Garber, a staff writer at The Atlantic. This

2:34

is How to Know What's Real. Megan,

2:41

I know you've been writing about

2:43

technology and culture for a long time at

2:45

The Atlantic, but I feel like

2:48

these last few years, you've really been

2:50

focused on thinking about truth and fiction.

2:52

Uh-huh. Yeah. I mean, you wrote an

2:55

article last year called, We're Already Living

2:57

in the Metiverse. Welcome. Okay,

3:00

but tell me more about what

3:02

you mean by living in the

3:04

metaverse. Yeah. So

3:07

I'm thinking of the metaverse

3:09

in part as this long-standing

3:11

dream in the tech world,

3:13

this hope that when computers

3:15

get advanced enough, they can

3:17

create environments where virtual reality

3:20

seems less virtual and more

3:22

reality. And

3:25

of course, the tech hasn't quite caught

3:27

up to that big

3:29

vision, but the idea of

3:31

the metaverse is what we're navigating right

3:33

now, I think. And this

3:36

idea that one day we

3:38

would be able to immerse ourselves in our

3:40

entertainment. That's the world, I

3:42

think, that's here. It's just that

3:44

the immersion isn't strictly a matter of

3:47

a single place or platform. Instead,

3:49

it's everywhere. That

3:54

line between reality and fantasy just

3:56

feels really blurry right now. Yes.

4:00

The if we insidious stuff

4:02

like there's the rise of

4:04

De Paix, a I generated

4:06

scams A dentist is like

4:08

slightly murkier areas. Lot.

4:10

Our. Content creators on you tube

4:12

and social media showing us they're

4:14

authentic selves or is it. Really

4:17

just a performance gas and

4:19

in some ways. To the

4:21

age old question say people have

4:23

been thinking about the difference between

4:25

the performed life and real life

4:27

such as it is for centuries

4:29

and millennia. Even with and exactly

4:31

like you said the difference feels

4:34

he's the are now than it's

4:36

ever than and I think so

4:38

much of that has to deal

4:40

with technology. I think about that

4:42

allied all the world's a stage and that

4:44

yes to be a metaphor for it's becoming

4:46

ever more literal. Imaginary

4:52

friend seem so child light

4:54

skin so kind of fanciful

4:56

and fantastical. But. It

4:58

does occurred to me that we have versions

5:01

of them raid even as adults. Totally.

5:04

I'm. I'm thinking about for example, the

5:06

people I follow on social media and

5:08

I know in some ways very intimate

5:10

details about their lives. I know what's

5:12

in their medicine to have an edge,

5:14

but they have for breakfast and of

5:16

course they know nothing about me. They

5:18

don't know even that I exist. Do

5:20

you have people in your life and

5:22

rare that you feel connected to in

5:24

that way. Yeah. I mean,

5:27

of course there's like. A lot

5:29

of folks that are listening and I

5:31

listened to several podcasts an ice overly

5:33

close to the host of those podcasts

5:35

and it makes us feel like I

5:37

really know them and like. There's.

5:40

A couple of runny influencers that

5:42

I phone instagram had one of

5:44

them just finished the Boston Marathon

5:46

and I was so proud of

5:48

her at it. and

5:51

it's a really strange to say that even

5:53

cause she's a total stranger have enough i

5:55

guess i can be proud of this relative

5:57

stranger about isis new so massive that ambition

6:00

and her goals. So yeah, it's

6:02

totally weird. And with the

6:04

podcasters, I mean, they're in my ears every

6:07

week. So I feel like I have this

6:09

sort of like standing date with them. Yes.

6:12

And I think a key

6:14

thing with all those relationships

6:16

is that the quote unquote

6:18

friends you're describing are kind

6:20

of real and imaginary at

6:22

the same time. So

6:24

they're relationships definitely and they're giving you

6:27

a lot of what IRL friendships can.

6:30

But also the relation aspect is so

6:32

different from what it would be IRL.

6:36

And I wonder what are those relationships we're

6:38

building with these people we don't really know.

6:41

A parasocial

6:43

relationship is essentially this

6:46

sort of simulated relationship.

6:50

So Andrea, I talked with Dr. Ariane Fasho.

6:52

She is an assistant

6:55

professor of communications at Florida State

6:57

University. And she's been studying emerging

6:59

media and especially the feelings of

7:02

closeness that so many of us

7:04

get just by watching strangers on

7:07

a screen, even with

7:09

something as commonplace as watching the news. The

7:12

news anchor is talking to the screen like they're

7:14

talking to you. It sort

7:17

of simulates a back and forth

7:19

because they are looking right at you.

7:22

They might use words like our

7:25

community, lots of we and

7:27

us and like inclusive language

7:29

like that. So it

7:31

simulates kind of a social interaction.

7:34

But it's not it's actually one

7:36

sided. Dr.

7:41

Fasho, when did your interest

7:44

in parasocial relationships really begin?

7:46

Through a series of kind of

7:48

weird and unfortunate, not unfortunate, really

7:51

fortunate events, I wound up having

7:54

an on campus job. And

7:56

at first I wanted something like really easy that I wouldn't

7:58

have to like do a lot. The albums

8:00

were taken up. I wound.

8:03

Up as a an undergraduate assistant to

8:05

a professor there and by the name

8:07

of Doctor Meegeren Sanders. And.

8:10

We worked on this study. Related.

8:13

To this character on the Tv Show

8:15

House. With. The character kind

8:17

of abruptly committed suicide on the

8:20

show. And was gone off the show. Does.

8:22

Not a real person. Actor of course

8:24

is fine. But. People really

8:26

morning that character it was. He has

8:29

played by Kal Penn. I remember

8:31

but does he love right? I ran the

8:33

on his left to go or for Obama

8:35

as how they tell them ourselves. As.

8:39

People. Actually set up these

8:41

Facebook pages. That were memorial

8:43

pages. It was virtually

8:45

indistinguishable from like a memorial page

8:47

you would set. Up for a friend. Like.

8:50

I'm gonna miss you so much

8:52

talking directly to the person, but

8:54

is that same sort of idea

8:56

when at character that we. Are

8:59

really fond of his pants. Taken away, people

9:01

really do kind of react. Like

9:03

they are just. Another person that

9:05

the know. I certainly

9:07

felt that and for me as a

9:10

viewer it's a little bit hard

9:12

to process that feeling been hit by

9:14

sort of question. it's validity. I

9:16

know this is sex in this is

9:18

fake. Why do I care so

9:20

much? but it is A was. It.

9:23

Goes back to sort

9:25

of evolutionary biology and

9:27

psychology. Essentially evolution happens

9:29

over. Millions. Of years

9:32

right? His ex a long. Time. But

9:34

when we think about the history

9:36

of television. That has been around

9:38

that long. In the grand scheme of things,

9:40

I mean my parents. Were. Like there

9:43

when television started. So you kind

9:45

of have this situation where consciously

9:47

yes we know this is not

9:49

real. This. Is character might

9:51

be dead but the actors fine.

9:54

But. Or lizard brains and away

9:56

don't really know the difference. So.

9:58

Do our minds. I mean, And like,

10:00

how do they distinguish even i'm in

10:03

the between the sort of sexual person

10:05

and the official person? Or is the

10:07

point that they simply don't. Yeah.

10:09

On some level, they don't. Based.

10:12

On what I know about Pearsall so relationships,

10:14

I think it's a matter of closeness to

10:16

some degree. You know, when my

10:19

father passed away, I was. And.

10:21

Still am. You know, couple years

10:23

later, very grief stricken about that

10:25

right arm. You feel that loss

10:27

very intimately all the time. every

10:29

game, photos, That person is part of your

10:31

life. All. The time Every day, Whereas

10:34

with media characters, they're not really a part

10:37

of your whole life in the same way.

10:39

We. Know them in that very specific context.

10:42

And. So that would indicate of

10:44

a lesser degree of closeness.

10:46

that would you certainly feel

10:48

the loss at that time

10:50

By it you can get

10:52

over it. Much. Quicker.

10:56

That makes sense. It's almost like the mechanisms

10:58

of television which are very an episode eighteen.

11:00

very kind of in the moment but then

11:02

you turn off the tv and go on

11:05

with the allows. Are

11:10

no Meghan? That is that. Still the

11:13

Robbie lives and breathes. Turn off the

11:15

Tv and you re enter reality. Yeah,

11:17

it is. Complicated. I use

11:20

the phrase i rl so in

11:22

real life all the time to

11:24

talk about in person interactions of

11:26

and really to talk about the

11:28

physical world as a general environment.

11:30

but also the idea of real

11:32

life quote unquote as a distinctly

11:34

physical thing can be a little

11:36

bit misleading because some of the

11:38

stuff on the web just as

11:40

we've been talking about. His.

11:42

Real. the people we interact with on

11:45

it and topics we might be learning

11:47

about or debating. They're often real. So.

11:49

The screens are part of our

11:52

realities and I think really importantly,

11:54

they mediate. Real relationship. Of.

11:57

Course yeah, I just have a lot of my

11:59

screen time bottles. of what you just said.

12:01

These are real meaningful relationships and they're relationships

12:03

that I need to be spending time with.

12:06

For many of us, the screens are

12:08

unavoidable. I'm looking down right now at

12:10

my watch that is on my wrist,

12:13

on my person. They are just around

12:15

these screens. And that makes me think

12:17

about Marshall McLuhan, who was someone who

12:19

did so much to shape the way

12:21

people talk about media today. He

12:24

talked about screens and really media

12:26

in general, whether they help us

12:28

to see each other or hear

12:30

each other or just know each

12:32

other, how those mediums become quote

12:35

unquote extensions of man. And I

12:37

think what we're seeing right now is what

12:40

it really means to have our devices in

12:42

a very direct and often literal way

12:44

be extensions of us. Yeah.

12:47

And we're not really

12:49

even just experiencing screens more

12:52

as a part of our lives, but

12:54

we're bringing more parts of our lives

12:56

into our screens. Yes. It's

12:58

no longer just fictional stories or

13:01

straight ahead news from the streets.

13:03

Yes. Instead, we're just witnessing people's

13:05

lives as they choose to share

13:07

them. We're invited to their living

13:09

rooms, into their kitchens, medicine

13:12

cabinets. And it's just, I think,

13:14

creating all these new ways of

13:16

seeing each other, whether in a

13:18

literal sense or just in a

13:21

broader way of awareness and connection

13:23

to other people's lives. We're

13:25

physically looking at other people so

13:27

much more than we

13:29

probably ever have. There's

13:32

this study by a

13:34

psychologist named Gail Stever

13:36

that discusses how we're

13:38

hardwired to become connected to

13:40

faces and voices, the

13:42

things that are familiar to us. And

13:45

her findings suggest that parasocial

13:48

connections like the ones we're talking about,

13:51

they might just be natural extensions of

13:53

this evolutionary instinct that

13:55

exists in us. So

13:58

If we're constantly. In presented with people

14:01

on our screens. Maybe. There's something

14:03

simply and eight nurse that leads us

14:05

to form attachments. Doctors.

14:10

Are so you studied what people connect

14:12

with when they watch other people on

14:14

screen. And I'd love to know

14:17

what your research found. Is it authenticity

14:19

that were seeking. I

14:21

would say it's primarily the perception of

14:23

authenticity, In which case, The how

14:26

authentic it actually is doesn't matter really. Oh

14:28

interesting. I do have a study where we

14:30

looked at. You to Burst and

14:32

Paracel School attributes like what they

14:34

were doing in their videos. To

14:37

sort of cultivate a pair social relationship. And

14:40

so if we think about for example, the

14:42

You Tube or a lot of those people

14:44

start off with We Go Back Cited as

14:46

a five, two thousand and six. When you

14:49

tube was really just starting. those people

14:51

are like in their bedrooms with like

14:53

a junkie camera and. A gives this idea

14:55

like okay. I'm just a regular

14:57

person. You're just a regular person. Were.

15:00

All just regular people together and citizens

15:02

in that industry has changed quite a

15:04

bit, yeah, you to breathe are professionals.

15:07

And. So Austin City. Is

15:09

still that perceptually? Oh, this is a

15:11

regular person like me, because if you're

15:14

an influencer, Your. Whole career

15:16

is based on your ability

15:18

to create parcels relationship. Made.

15:21

Yeah so what we found is is

15:24

that it was a lot of. Self

15:26

disclosure and we were pretty broad with that

15:29

so didn't have to be like. A deep,

15:31

dark secret. It could be something very small. And

15:34

what we found there was. It

15:36

it didn't really matter the type of

15:38

self disclosure so it could be positive

15:40

things out a good day. I

15:42

did some fun stuff with my friends

15:44

and it could be neutral things. I

15:47

woke up late today. He. Could

15:49

be negative things. Didn't really

15:51

matter, it's still. Built those feelings

15:53

of authenticity and that map social

15:56

relationships. Generally speaking, if you

15:58

got a friend, you know, Some.

16:00

Positive things. Some negative things, some neutral things

16:02

about them. I. Wonder and to

16:04

about the lines than between Sort of

16:07

that, the Paris social relationship of today

16:09

and the celebrity. You know the celebrity

16:11

as such an old idea and I

16:13

think many viewers and many audiences. so

16:16

it's some kind of ownership over celebrities.

16:18

at least their images there in our

16:20

P R realities. All that kind of

16:22

the so what are some of the

16:25

differences between the you know them, the

16:27

modern Paris social relationship and the longstanding

16:29

celebrity relationship. So.

16:32

We think about we go back to the

16:34

golden age of cinema. If.

16:36

You look into it is really wild.

16:38

What the movie studios of the time

16:41

how much control they had over stars

16:43

live? And yes they do things like

16:45

arranged marriages. So. They had this

16:47

crazy control so the images were very

16:50

very curated. Now there's

16:52

just so much more

16:54

access. And.

16:57

Part. Of It or Eat A. When you think

16:59

about an influencer, they are inviting people in to

17:01

their lives in a certain way. And.

17:04

There is that feeling of this is

17:06

authentic. This is real in a way

17:08

that you know nineteen twenties Hollywood. Doesn't

17:11

feel because it was so carefully

17:13

constructed and I think that the

17:15

authenticity kind of builds these paracel

17:17

so relationships in a way that

17:19

is interesting. And unique. This.

17:21

Idea of celebrity. It. Is

17:23

thought that is also Paracel for relationship. But

17:26

it is a little bit different

17:28

because unlike our traditional. understanding.

17:30

Of influencers. Celebrity.

17:32

It is sort of on a pedestal. Lights

17:35

it's hard to imagine. like. Beyond says.

17:39

Shopping. At. Public

17:41

Service of has a wooden bow and

17:43

a kind. Of freak your brain a

17:45

little bit and really word yeah I'm

17:47

in a way that that's that's not

17:49

true with like influencers because of that

17:51

sort of perception of authenticity a little

17:53

bit more oh I that totally makes

17:55

sense at it makes me wonder to

17:58

us s para social relation said. The

18:00

and influence serves as they are having

18:02

more influence over everything you know If

18:04

that will change our ideas about celebrity

18:07

to i may may the celebrities of

18:09

the future even the be unsaleable celebrity

18:11

The future you know will be shopping

18:14

at Publix and will actually make a

18:16

point of showing us that base out

18:18

that public see you know to to

18:21

to perform authenticity and that way for

18:23

me I remember so when Leo messy.

18:26

Moved him to at in or Miami for my

18:28

York Posted a video of him at. Public

18:30

and or has a comic as how

18:32

Cool Public's. You have one of the most

18:34

famous for in the world And a stop at

18:37

Publix I do. People actually really respond with us

18:39

like that. This is a real

18:41

person. He. Subsequently, Social

18:44

media has changed the amount of access

18:47

we get with celebrities. When.

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restrictions apply. Meghan,

19:28

there's sort of us and version

19:30

happening in which may be influencers

19:33

who gained followers by been quote

19:35

unquote authentic and letting you into

19:37

their lives are now sera in

19:39

their lives More similarly to how

19:41

the studios and actors have traditionally

19:44

done and celebrities to have historically

19:46

been very curated. Manicures are showing

19:48

us parts and realize that are

19:50

more authentic. I yes definitely I

19:52

think that such a good points

19:55

and I also wonder whether the

19:57

and version you're. Describing his.

20:00

As a matter of like

20:02

technological logistics, sausages or function

20:04

basically of the way we

20:06

now interact with each other

20:08

through screen And this is

20:10

something else that Marshall Mcluhan

20:12

talked about. And you know

20:14

we made thinks about technology

20:16

as gadgets that we build

20:18

and use and most importantly

20:20

that we control. But she

20:22

said that tech also controls.

20:24

Ah Oh yeah, like technology

20:26

basically has an ideological baked

20:28

into it and some way.

20:30

Over email each new piece of

20:32

technology whether it's a newspaper or

20:34

a radio, or a T V

20:37

or a smartphone, Ties assumptions basically

20:39

baked into it about how the

20:41

human should interact with it yet

20:43

and when we interact with those

20:46

devices over time stats any conditions

20:48

us to live according to those

20:50

assumptions according to the way that

20:52

the technology universe guides us to

20:55

live of. So print mediums encourage

20:57

us to things in ways that

20:59

are. Basically, it are plenty

21:01

linear logical. they and screen

21:04

mediums are much more visceral

21:06

and immediate. Yeah,

21:08

and in a what about ai? Where's

21:11

that gonna fit into all of this.

21:14

You know when? Right now there's just

21:16

a lot of discussion around how Ai

21:18

is learning about us to. These large

21:20

language models. But. Well

21:22

as the gonna impact the way we think and how we

21:25

look for the next and. Yes,

21:27

Yes! We're

21:30

in this moment right now where it's

21:32

actually becoming quite hard for people to

21:34

discern instantly of something as even a

21:36

I are not. Yeah, yeah, so what

21:38

are we call that relationship? I

21:42

ask doctor fast so that that's

21:44

I wanted to know especially if

21:46

the relationship that people are building

21:48

with a i could still be

21:50

considered para social or if as

21:52

the bots learn how to innocent

21:54

human kinetics since we should think.

21:56

differently about our relationship with a i

22:01

It is parasocial in so much as that

22:03

is one-sided, which is part

22:05

of the definition of what parasocial is.

22:08

Yeah. But because the illusion

22:12

of it being two-sided is

22:14

so much deeper than like

22:16

you're watching somebody on TV, right? Yeah,

22:19

yeah. So if we think

22:21

about like a chatbot talking to you and you talking

22:23

to it, it

22:25

certainly seems more social in

22:28

one sense because you're talking

22:30

and getting a response. But

22:33

generally speaking, they don't have memory in the

22:35

same way that humans do and they don't

22:37

build relationships the same way humans

22:40

do as of right now. I'm

22:42

sure, you know, I'm

22:45

not like an AI

22:47

person who's designing

22:49

and developing AI and so they might listen to this and

22:51

be like, just you wait. There's

22:56

a bot that's remembering you right now. Yeah,

22:58

I'm going to train my bot right now.

23:00

Promise I'm not a bot. AI

23:08

definitely feels like

23:11

another evolution of the technology and

23:13

the tools that we've seen. And

23:18

just like with those other tools and with those

23:20

other technologies and that other evolution, it's

23:22

really a bit incumbent on us as people

23:24

who are using those tools and technologies to

23:27

make sure that we're not forming any

23:29

sort of bad

23:32

relationship to it. Like we've got to check

23:34

ourselves just like, you know, anybody could have

23:36

a potentially bad relationship in a parasocial relationship

23:39

where they take it too far. With

23:41

AI, we're going to have to do the same thing. Oh,

23:44

I love that comparison. You know,

23:46

we learn in adulthood to build

23:48

boundaries in those relationships

23:50

to protect ourselves often and

23:52

to manage our vulnerabilities and

23:54

our intimacies and protect other

23:56

people too. And maybe

23:59

we are in the... kind of

24:01

pre-teen phase of figuring out

24:03

the relationship that we have

24:05

with AI. Mmm.

24:07

The pre-teen phase. The most fun

24:09

phase to go through. And

24:12

maybe hardest too, yeah. Interestingly,

24:15

it's also the phase when we're shifting our

24:17

relationships to be more personal in nature. You

24:20

know, researchers have found that this is the

24:23

time when you're sharing more intimate thoughts with

24:25

people outside of your family. You know, you're

24:27

letting more people into your inner life. So

24:30

actually maybe describing this time with our

24:32

devices as a sort of adolescence is

24:35

really appropriate. Yeah. And

24:37

adolescence is also so future-oriented,

24:40

right? So much of

24:42

that phase of life isn't just about the

24:44

relationships you're forging in that moment, but it's

24:46

also about looking ahead and sort

24:48

of figuring out who you want to be, who

24:50

you want to become. And I

24:53

think that's really useful here too to think

24:55

about just as we sort of consider what

24:58

kind of digital adulthood we want

25:00

to create together and especially what

25:02

types of relationships we want to

25:04

be building with each other. I

25:08

actually think it's really important that

25:10

we're not too quick to demonize

25:12

this behavior. Like what's

25:14

really become clear to me in this conversation

25:16

is that parasocial relationships, they're

25:19

actually fine and normal to have.

25:22

I mean, for some people, yes, there's going

25:24

to be a small risk of these

25:26

relationships turning dysfunctional, but

25:29

largely, parasocial relationships, they fulfill some

25:31

sort of need that we seem to

25:33

have in our lives. Yes.

25:35

And a really profound need too, I

25:38

think. Yeah. As we've been talking about,

25:40

and I've been thinking too, we tend

25:42

to talk about social media and bots

25:44

and the web in general as these

25:47

things that are totally new and, you

25:49

know, unprecedented and therefore so hard to

25:51

figure out. But The machines

25:53

are really just new tools for doing

25:55

this very ancient thing, which like you

25:58

said, is connecting with each other. Humans

26:00

are social animals and we will

26:02

find ways to be so so.

26:04

Whether it's on a zoom, fall

26:06

in person or I don't know

26:09

on a podcast, Know says well.

26:11

it's been really nice Connected with

26:13

you Meghan, It's been nice connecting

26:15

with you two hundred. That's

26:21

all for this episode of Food. You know

26:23

what's real. This episode was hosted boundary of

26:25

Others and me. Megan Berber and

26:27

producer is Natalie Bennett. And

26:29

editors are pledging evade. And chaplaincy fact

26:32

checked by any other auto are

26:34

engineer is Rob first yes. Rather

26:36

also composed some of the music for the

26:39

South. The executive producer of Audio is Clouding

26:41

A Bed and the managing editor of Audio

26:43

is Andrea Valdez. Next

26:52

time on how to know what's real. When

26:55

we go online in a there's Julian

26:57

interacting with the people we know but

27:00

there's also pleasure to see know. what

27:02

I think of is that it is

27:04

the digital streets for had the ability

27:06

to just see other people losing their

27:09

lives in ways that you're just like

27:11

wow that's different and I am intrigued.

27:14

What we can learn from Urbanization about

27:16

how to live in a crowded and

27:19

buckling digital world. That

27:21

with you on Monday.