0:00

Ted Audio

0:02

Collective. You're

0:04

listening to How to

0:06

Be a Better You're

0:09

listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm

0:11

your host, Chris Duffy. Sometimes, Sometimes when I'm

0:13

trying to be a better human,

0:15

I feel like my job is to

0:17

reevaluate my actions to to think about

0:19

things that I'm already thinking about

0:21

in a new way. if What if

0:23

I prioritized my work tasks differently or

0:26

if I thought about my self -worth

0:28

from a different angle? Maybe this

0:30

one new life hack for loading

0:32

the dishwasher is gonna be what pushes

0:34

me over the edge into transcendent

0:36

bliss. bliss. Other times, I think

0:38

you might argue more self self-aware I

0:40

I how vast the universe of ideas

0:42

that I've never even considered at

0:44

all is. all There is so much

0:47

wisdom and perspective that I've never exposed

0:49

myself to. to. And that that is a

0:51

big reason why I am so excited that we

0:53

have today's guest on the show. show. Simran

0:55

Jit Singh is a professor of

0:57

history at Union Theological Seminary, and

0:59

he's the best the author of The

1:01

Light We Give, We Give, Sick Wisdom

1:03

can Your Life. your life. Simran is also

1:05

the host of the podcast podcast and Practice, and

1:08

he writes and speaks a lot about the the

1:10

religion, which I have to be honest, I I

1:12

was not very familiar with before I read

1:14

his book. That's That's actually kind of surprising

1:16

to me in retrospect, because it's one

1:18

of the largest religions in the world the

1:20

somewhere between 25 and 30 million believers,

1:22

depending on how you count. count. And for

1:24

perspective, that that means that twice

1:26

twice as many people or

1:29

almost twice as many people

1:31

identify as I'm not going Jewish. and sum

1:33

up not gonna try and sum up all

1:35

of the sick beliefs for you, partly because who

1:37

am I to do that, think and partly because

1:39

I think a does such a great job of

1:41

it in this interview in in his book. But

1:43

I will will just say it is

1:45

it is a monotheistic religion that

1:47

originated in Punjab in India and

1:49

that believers are often most

1:52

visibly identified by their by their turbans. but

1:54

that visibility also means that

1:56

they frequently attract prejudice, harassment,

1:58

and even violence. And there's

2:00

a lot of ignorance about what it means to

2:02

be sick, it what it means to wear a

2:04

turban and what they believe. a clip from

2:06

a clip from Simran's podcast, where he's talking

2:08

about the ways that he personally has

2:10

dealt with the confusion, the the bias, and

2:12

even the hatred that gets directed towards his

2:14

community. Growing up in

2:17

the the 80s and 90s in South

2:19

Texas, I I was an easy target with

2:21

my my and beard and brown skin. brown

2:23

skin, And yet yet was the only home

2:25

my my and I ever really knew.

2:27

really so And to this hope. on to

2:29

that one day that one no longer

2:31

feel the weight of being both

2:33

hyper hyper invisible. invisible.

2:36

But in 2012, after a after white

2:38

supremacists walked into a a girdora in

2:40

Oak Creek, Wisconsin and opened fire

2:42

on the the Sikh congregation, I

2:45

felt that hope hope to splinter. And

2:47

And in the wake of the massacre,

2:49

it was so painful, watching reporters

2:51

stumble through their descriptions of

2:53

of were. were and what was happening.

2:56

In this fog of misinformation. much

2:59

Much of the media missed a

3:01

powerful message from sick communities. sick communities.

3:04

Nirpoh, nirivet, no fear, no

3:06

hate. Instead of calling for

3:08

of calling for blood or

3:10

retribution in the aftermath of

3:12

this violence, sick Sikh communities in

3:14

Wisconsin offered up deeply provocative

3:16

questions that guide me to

3:18

this day. this day. Where the

3:21

room for for love in times of suffering?

3:23

What would it mean for us to see the light? see

3:25

the light, the shared divinity, Vigur,

3:28

that connects us all? How might we

3:30

might we learn not to be so

3:32

quick to draw that line of

3:34

no return? big and very

3:36

important Those are some very big

3:38

and very important questions, and we're going to

3:41

do our best to think about them together with

3:43

Simran in just a moment after this break. This

3:56

episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

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4:42

Today we're talking with Cimarangit Singh about

4:44

his work as a professor of history,

4:46

his research on religion, and the lessons

4:49

that he shares from the sick faith.

4:51

Hi, I'm Simmer and Jee Singh. I'm

4:53

a writer and a professor. And I

4:55

wrote a book called The Light Wicket,

4:58

how sick wisdom can transform your life.

5:00

I loved your book. I thought it

5:02

was really well written and interesting and

5:05

so helpful and useful. So let me

5:07

just start with this, which is why

5:09

should everyone learn the wisdom of sick

5:12

wisdom? And what is it that it

5:14

can do that people can put into

5:16

their lives? It's a funny question, I

5:19

mean, it's a funny question I have

5:21

to answer in part because I don't

5:23

see myself as somebody who's a missionizer

5:26

or proselyt, and I don't, I don't,

5:28

you know, I'm a professor of religion

5:30

and I practice religion, I don't really

5:32

care if people follow my religion or

5:35

another one or anyone, right? It's like,

5:37

that's not the point, but I think

5:39

what really kind of started to stand

5:42

out to me when I was writing

5:44

this book. And actually really like part

5:46

of the impetus for this book was

5:49

seeing how much people were struggling with

5:51

how hard life can be and recognizing

5:53

that because of this tradition that I

5:56

grew up in I had access to

5:58

some answers that it seemed like other

6:00

people didn't. You know we live in

6:03

a where we don't always have ways

6:05

of thinking about or even talking about

6:07

some of life's toughest questions and some

6:10

of these questions are like everyday problems

6:12

like you know how do we live

6:14

with people who are different from us

6:16

or how do we deal with people's

6:19

assumptions about us or even like how

6:21

do we think about our own self-worth

6:23

without falling into the trap of, you

6:26

know, self-centeredness or egotism. And so like

6:28

these kinds of things, which I found

6:30

really serving me, especially in my 30s,

6:33

as we were looking at, you know,

6:35

a global pandemic and looking at political

6:37

polarization and everyone was so angry and

6:40

frustrated and hurt and I was too,

6:42

but it seemed like there were some

6:44

teachings that really helped me through those

6:47

moments and I really felt a desire

6:49

to help other people find some solace

6:51

during sometimes of real darkness. That really

6:53

resonates with me. I think I don't

6:56

really care about what you believe to

6:58

other people. I'm not trying to convince

7:00

people to believe something, especially if they

7:03

don't want to, but I have thought

7:05

about how for all the really good

7:07

reasons why people have moved away from

7:10

organized religion, for all the abuses and

7:12

prejudice and all of that, I get

7:14

why people have pushed away. But it

7:17

does seem like there hasn't really been

7:19

something that has filled the void of

7:21

making meaning of hard things and purpose

7:24

in life. and finding community and traditions

7:26

and things to fall back on. And

7:28

not that those can't happen outside of

7:30

religion, but I just feel like, at

7:33

least in my world, the people who

7:35

I interact with, if they don't have

7:37

a religious tradition, I think it's often

7:40

hard to find what is the secular

7:42

version of those. I think that's right.

7:44

Even for those of us who think

7:47

about religion and try to practice it,

7:49

even there it can feel really meaningless

7:51

sometimes right like you you can fall

7:54

into a certain kind of rhythm where

7:56

you're just kind of doing the thing

7:58

and in love with the idea of

8:01

religion and religious practice without really thinking

8:03

about how to apply the teachings in

8:05

your life. That's in some ways, like

8:07

I'm really turned off by that approach

8:10

because we see how hurtful it can

8:12

be if we think about, you know,

8:14

fundamentalist readings of religion, you know, that's

8:17

some of the ugliest forms of humanity.

8:19

On the one hand, I get why

8:21

people turn away from religion. I also

8:24

don't push anyone towards religion itself. But

8:26

what I found is in there's versions

8:28

of this in every kind of ideology.

8:31

There are ways that you can learn.

8:33

to engage with these teachings that can

8:35

really enrich your life and can help

8:38

you navigate the complexity. And I think

8:40

that to me is like what's so

8:42

powerful. Like in our country now, we

8:44

so often are taught to look at

8:47

things through a lens of black and

8:49

white, right? that's like, is it good

8:51

or bad? Do we like it or

8:54

do we not like it? Is it

8:56

democratic? I mean, over and over again,

8:58

it's these dichotomies. And to me, what

9:01

religion unlocks is, how do you live

9:03

in the gray, recognizing that life is

9:05

gray? And it's not always easy to

9:08

know what the answers are. And sometimes,

9:10

you know, you take these principles of,

9:12

you know, compassion or service, and you

9:15

apply those, and that helps you figure

9:17

out. I want to read something from

9:19

your book, from The Light We Give.

9:21

There's this moment where you are talking

9:24

about how growing up your family in

9:26

South Texas and San Antonio was one

9:28

of the only sick families in the

9:31

area. and that your mom would come

9:33

to your school to give presentations on

9:35

Punjabi and sick culture. And so I'm

9:38

just going to read this here. She

9:40

would lead us in singing while playing

9:42

the harmonium and tabla, share samples of

9:45

home-cooked Punjabi food, and even show how

9:47

we wrap our hair in our turbins.

9:49

As we got older, we began leading

9:52

these sessions with her and eventually on

9:54

our I felt a tinge of ambivalence

9:56

with each presentation, and I feel the

9:59

same even now as I deliver them

10:01

for my own kids. When families like

10:03

mine come in to offer cultural awareness

10:05

programs, it's a reminder that children would

10:08

not learn about people like us unless

10:10

we made the effort to open ourselves

10:12

up. Presentations like these are a reflection

10:15

of how much immigrants do to assuage

10:17

xenophobia. My parents came to seek refuge

10:19

in the US and in a bid

10:22

to ensure their children's safety, they go

10:24

out of their way to share their

10:26

culture as if to say, please don't

10:29

fear or harm us. We're really very

10:31

nice. That I thought was a really

10:33

powerful passage. And the reason I read

10:36

it is the idea that you feel

10:38

ambivalence when you think about your parents

10:40

having to do that and yet that

10:42

you still do that for your own

10:45

kids. And then to ask you about

10:47

when you do work like writing a

10:49

book that is about sick wisdom and

10:52

sick culture and when even on a

10:54

show like this in this very episode

10:56

right I'm just curious to hear like

10:59

what that ambivalence is for you and

11:01

why you still think it's important how

11:03

you feel about it because I think

11:06

that's a complicated thing. I haven't thought

11:08

about that message. in some time and

11:10

actually this morning literally my wife and

11:13

I were coordinating with our daughters teachers

11:15

to set up these presentations so it's

11:17

so interesting to hear that today as

11:19

a parent now I understand like all

11:22

of these are just excuses to go

11:24

hang out with your kids and their

11:26

school. It's just new fun the teachers

11:29

and see if you like them and

11:31

you know which kids sit with you

11:33

and all that stuff right? I realize

11:36

now that's really the undercurrent, but that

11:38

feeling of imbalablances is still there and

11:40

the awareness that if we didn't do

11:43

it no one would is also still

11:45

there. And so what do you do

11:47

in a culture where you recognize that

11:50

no one knows who you are and

11:52

no one will know and that ignorance

11:54

can lead to all kinds of violence.

11:56

I mean literal physical violence that I've

11:59

experienced and people in my family felt

12:01

and knowing that we would be safer

12:03

if people knew who we were. And

12:06

on the other hand, recognizing that it's

12:08

not really fair, that our world is

12:10

structured and our country is structured in

12:13

such a way, that certain people have

12:15

to explain themselves in order to find

12:17

safety. And I think for a lot

12:20

of people, that unfairness of it outweighs

12:22

the need for safety. And I'm hearing

12:24

more and more people being like, I

12:27

don't have to justify my existence here

12:29

and why should I. deal with it

12:31

and learn to see my humanity and

12:33

get over your own xenophobia or your

12:36

bias or whatever it is and I

12:38

get that and it feels like it's

12:40

born out of a frustration. that's very

12:43

familiar to me. I have found it,

12:45

it's almost a way of asserting my

12:47

own agency. Right, like I live in

12:50

this country where so often I'm put

12:52

in a position where I have to

12:54

react to people's racism and to have

12:57

the opportunity to say, actually I'm going

12:59

to be proactive about it. Like I'm

13:01

not going to fall into the reactionary

13:04

mode which depends on your

13:06

moods or whatever happens to me on

13:08

the street, it's more like, you know,

13:10

I'm gonna have some control over it.

13:13

And I realize that the control is

13:15

very minimal and, you know, is talking

13:17

to my daughter's third grade class about

13:19

a Punjabi festival going to resolve bias

13:22

and racism in this country? Like, of

13:24

course not. But it is, it does

13:26

make me feel like I'm making a

13:28

difference within a community that I care

13:31

about, and also creating safety for my

13:33

kids in a context where being different

13:35

in this country can be really hard,

13:37

and I grew up with that too.

13:40

And so those are the kinds of

13:42

things that I'm grappling with. I think

13:44

reading your book, one thing that I

13:46

was struck by is I didn't think

13:49

that I knew a lot about what

13:51

it meant to be a sick, but

13:53

I thought I knew a little, and

13:55

seekism. you talk about how both of

13:58

those are kind of not actually the

14:00

correct way and come from a colonial

14:02

understanding of the language. So I think

14:04

there's this basic part where it was

14:07

a little bit humbling for me, but

14:09

I want it to be humbled in

14:11

that way. And I'm all this is

14:13

to lead to Nor, who is one

14:16

of the producers on this show. said

14:18

in the prep for this episode, she

14:20

said that, you know, I'm sick and

14:22

I actually really never meet anyone who

14:25

knows anything about the religion and this

14:27

is her words. I'm genuinely curious why

14:29

no one has ever googled it, right?

14:31

Because like, we literally could just Google

14:34

these answers. And yet, here you are

14:36

having to like do interviews and write

14:38

a book for people to find this

14:40

information out. I heard over and over

14:43

from people in the sick community who

14:45

were like, what the hell, right, where

14:47

the world's fifth part largest religion, you

14:49

know, there are millions of us all

14:52

around the world. We've had prominent global

14:54

positions and governments and, you know, sports

14:56

and business and so on and so

14:59

like what is and we're so visible,

15:01

right, like in our community. many of

15:03

the people wear turbans and have beards

15:05

and so what is all of this

15:08

about and I have a hypothesis here

15:10

we are not a tradition that goes

15:12

out and tries to convert people or

15:14

even to advertise ourselves and say here

15:17

is who we are and and part

15:19

of that comes from this core belief

15:21

which I find really compelling and beautiful

15:23

which is you know you don't have

15:26

to be of a certain tribe or

15:28

a certain worldview or believe in a

15:30

certain thing in order to achieve the

15:32

goal of life. And that's a very

15:35

different approach to religion than we get

15:37

from a lot of traditions, right? Like,

15:39

essentially the teaching in Sikhism is the

15:41

goal in life is to achieve love.

15:44

to live a life of love and

15:46

you can do that from wherever you

15:48

are and you don't have to follow

15:50

our philosophy in order to live a

15:53

life of love and you know we

15:55

celebrate people as enlightened beings who come

15:57

from traditions even within our own scripture.

15:59

And I think what that opens up

16:02

for me is, you know, in this

16:04

sort of Western colonial understanding of religion,

16:06

which is like, it's a competition, like

16:08

mine has to be better than yours

16:11

for mine to be legit. Like it's

16:13

kind of how we think about everything,

16:15

right? Politics, sports, like, my wife is

16:17

a big ghost fan, and we're a

16:20

Monday Night Football, the other night, and

16:22

like these all these fans

16:24

were getting in fights with each other,

16:26

not because they hated the other team,

16:29

but because they loved their own team

16:31

and the nature of their love required

16:33

them to be better than others. You

16:35

know, it's just like, do we need

16:37

to? find our own self-worth on the

16:40

basis of denigrating other people. Like we

16:42

see that in politics and it's so

16:44

gross. And so part of what we

16:46

see in the Sikh tradition that I

16:49

find beautiful and other traditions of versions

16:51

of this too is this openness to

16:53

love as the thing that binds us

16:55

together as people also then means that

16:58

you know we don't have this political

17:00

history of colonizing or converting and then

17:02

nobody ends up knowing about us because

17:04

we're not out there telling them our

17:07

story. And just the last piece of

17:09

it is to me as part of

17:11

this hypothesis is you know what we

17:13

believe is like you live a life

17:16

of service and the world is bigger

17:18

than you. So anyway this is all

17:20

sort of my working theory for why

17:22

people don't know about who six are

17:24

and I think there's something really that

17:27

I'm really attracted to by that worldview

17:29

and also the flip side of that

17:31

coin is like, there's real danger that

17:33

comes with not being known, especially in

17:36

the country and in a world where

17:38

being unknown or being rendered invisible can

17:40

be really dangerous. So I imagine many

17:42

people who are listening to this, whether

17:45

they are themselves sick or are from

17:47

another community where maybe they are visibly

17:49

not part of the majority wherever they

17:51

live, are managing something similar. So I'm

17:54

curious what advice have for people who

17:56

are managing that and how you did

17:58

it when you were younger and how

18:00

you've managed that now as an adult,

18:02

whether it's changed or you've learned anything

18:05

about how to manage those that work.

18:07

Yeah, honest answer from me is that

18:09

there is no right answer. Then, you

18:11

know, if somebody comes in, being genuinely

18:14

curious, like as you were describing or

18:16

if somebody comes in hateful and angry,

18:18

like, that alone determines a very different

18:20

kind of response. But then there's also

18:23

other questions as everyone listening will know,

18:25

like it depends on context, right? Like,

18:27

are you in a place where it's

18:29

safe? Are you, do you have time?

18:32

Like if I'm out with my family,

18:34

I might react very differently than if

18:36

I'm on my own. And if I'm

18:38

out for a run and I don't

18:40

want to stop my run, like all

18:43

these factors are there. And I think,

18:45

you know, what I've learned is appreciate

18:47

the context and also give yourself grace.

18:49

Last night my neighbor was talking about

18:52

how her other neighbor was accusing her

18:54

of not liking her because she's Turkish.

18:56

and my neighbor was so offended and

18:58

she was pretty upset and we were

19:01

talking about it and I was like,

19:03

you know, she was like, how do

19:05

you deal with this stuff when people

19:07

make assumptions about you? And I was

19:10

like, you know, the best thing that

19:12

I've learned is like to remember that

19:14

oftentimes their assumptions have less to do

19:16

with you and more to do with

19:18

them. It's so easy to take these

19:21

kinds of criticisms or assumptions personally because

19:23

they do affect us, right? But try

19:25

and take your ego out of it

19:27

and say like, okay, this isn't actually

19:30

about me It's about this other person

19:32

and if the conditions are right and

19:34

I'm feeling up for it Then I'll

19:36

be like okay, let me let me

19:39

help this other person and it brings

19:41

it back to service as opposed to

19:43

obligation and those two things are very

19:45

different and right now like in our

19:48

society. We're often thinking about you know,

19:50

microaggressions and you know having to explain

19:52

who we are and the burden of

19:54

responsibility who that should be on and

19:56

I I get all of that conversation

19:59

and I'm in agreement with a lot

20:01

of it. terms of where we're landing,

20:03

what I would offer is if you

20:05

can think in some cases about these

20:08

moments as being opportunities to connect with

20:10

people and to serve them, that's a

20:12

very different kind of experience, one that

20:14

does not feel heavy and obligatory, but

20:17

one that actually feels liberating in some

20:19

ways. And so that mindset has really

20:21

helped me in those kinds of moments.

22:46

by visiting

22:49

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23:05

we are back. Today we're talking

23:07

with Simrin Jitzeng, author of The

23:09

Light We Give, how sick wisdom

23:11

can transform your life. You have

23:13

a lot of very funny examples

23:16

in the book of someone saying

23:18

something ignorant to you or to

23:20

someone in your family and then

23:22

coming up with just a... perfectly

23:24

scripted one minor and saying it

23:27

back to them. What role can

23:29

humor or laughter play in changing

23:31

the tone and the tenor of

23:33

your experience with these types of

23:35

things? Humor, I mean, as you're

23:37

describing, like, it was a tool

23:40

that we learned early to really

23:42

negotiate tense situations. And a lot

23:44

of the, for my brothers and

23:46

me, was like, here is how

23:48

to deal with pain like sometimes

23:51

with really ugly situations like like

23:53

if somebody says something hateful to

23:55

you or denies you service like

23:57

it sucks and especially when you're

23:59

a kid and like to be

24:02

able to joke about it changes

24:04

the tenor experience and so humor

24:06

was a really valuable tool and

24:08

I would say over time what

24:10

I've realized is humor also unlocks

24:13

it unlocks people's armor right it

24:15

disarms them and opens them up

24:17

to like I mean especially from

24:19

somebody who's visibly religious like

24:21

when people see my turban and my beard

24:24

they're like oh that guy's hardcore right like

24:26

that guy must be serious and for me

24:28

to make a joke or like a pop

24:30

culture reference they're like oh he's like it's

24:33

unexpected and then like whatever the punchline is

24:35

they're like oh this guy's a person Well,

24:37

one example of this that you given the

24:39

book that I laughed out loud at is

24:42

when someone says to you, go back to

24:44

where you came from, kind of like the

24:46

classic racist trope, and you lean really heavily

24:48

into your Texas accent, which I don't want

24:50

to force you to do unless you want

24:53

to, but I thought that was so funny,

24:55

the way you respond when someone says go

24:57

back to where you came from. Yeah, y'all

24:59

want me to go back to Texas? It's

25:02

like, yeah, that was like our, that was

25:04

like our accent. My brothers and me would

25:06

throw around all the time. And what I

25:08

think humor does sometimes in that example too,

25:11

the easy answer is like, hey, that's messed

25:13

up. Why would you say that? Why would

25:15

you say that? But like, how is somebody

25:17

gonna respond when they say that? They're gonna

25:20

be like, they're gonna double down and be

25:22

like, yeah, but you shouldn't be here. I

25:24

mean, how many times does that happen to

25:26

me? But it's a very different reaction when

25:29

you can show someone how absurd their comment

25:31

is. And so like the Texas accent hits

25:33

hard. And I'm like, I'm from San Antonio,

25:35

you want me to let you want me

25:37

to go back to San Antonio? And they're

25:40

like, oh, I didn't realize that's what I

25:42

was saying. And of course, like for some

25:44

people, that's not what they really mean. And

25:46

they're going to still go hard. But for

25:49

some people, it's like. a moment to like

25:51

that punchline requires a moment of reflection and

25:53

that moment of reflection can reveal something about

25:55

their own you know internal dissonance and racism

25:58

and so yeah humor I found is in

26:00

a lot of cases a much more effective

26:02

tool, not just as like a survival tactic

26:04

for me and self entertainment and all that

26:07

stuff, but also like an effective way of

26:09

communicating back to people. there's a moment in

26:11

the book where you're at a water park

26:13

with your family and someone comes up to

26:16

your brother and sees his turban and says

26:18

like are you a genie and he says

26:20

yeah and I'm gonna make your racist ass

26:22

disappear and moments like that one just like

26:25

great love that great line but I just

26:27

want to say I really feel like there's

26:29

a cinematic nature to your work and the

26:31

way you write and I'm like there is

26:33

definitely like a TV show or a movie

26:36

or some sort of adaptation of this to

26:38

be made that would be really hilarious and

26:40

relatable and great. I just really believe that

26:42

as someone who works in TV and has

26:45

written stuff. That's like a dream of mine

26:47

and like it's so easy to say that

26:49

to anyone right like you could say something

26:51

with that tone of language to anyone but

26:54

like part of why that story worked is

26:56

because he was on a basketball court in

26:58

a park where we were playing pick up

27:00

and so like it was

27:02

effective because my brother was speaking the

27:05

language of the people in that context.

27:07

It's like a mic drop moment and

27:09

all the guys were like, oh, and

27:11

they like surround my brother and they're

27:13

like, he got you. And then like,

27:16

it like totally broke the ice, right?

27:18

And like it's cinematic in that it's

27:20

this like triumphant moment where people come

27:22

together and it doesn't always work out

27:24

that way right? One of the reasons

27:26

why the idea of like the pop

27:29

culture or entertainment representation of your work

27:31

is in my head is because I

27:33

was also thinking as I was reading

27:35

this that there's a lot of talk

27:37

in culture about like the importance of

27:40

representation and I think that many people

27:42

certainly me included are like yeah yeah

27:44

I get that that's important but this

27:46

is actually why representation is so important

27:48

is because people have misrepresented identity and

27:51

that is affecting your day-to-day life. Right?

27:53

Like the idea that a turban, a

27:55

visible thing that you wear every day,

27:57

that is associated with terrorism. It's not

27:59

like people just made that

28:01

up like that comes from what they

28:04

are consuming in media and that media

28:06

is not at all accurate to like

28:08

ideologies or even religions right like the

28:10

religious affiliation of what the turban means

28:13

so it feels like there's a lot

28:15

of misguided prejudice media that has kind

28:17

of seeped in and that is that

28:19

then leads to regular people having to

28:22

do this work in their life because

28:24

it hasn't been undone in the pop

28:26

culture version that many people are seeing.

28:28

Totally. That's so true. And I would

28:31

say like the most intuitive version of

28:33

dealing with that from a misrepresentation standpoint

28:35

is to be like, hey everyone, the

28:37

term is not actually a signal of

28:40

terrorism. Right. That's typically what we do.

28:42

And like I could do that. And

28:44

in some ways, like. I end up

28:46

having to do that. You know, a

28:49

lot of times I'm like, you know,

28:51

hey, can you come do this interview

28:53

on CNN and talk about, you know,

28:55

this hate crime when somebody was attacked

28:58

because somebody thought they were a terrorist

29:00

and can you explain why you're not

29:02

a terrorist? And like, I

29:04

do that for the reasons we were

29:06

describing before, like there's safety in it,

29:09

there's value to that for my community,

29:11

and also it's so frustrating to be

29:13

stuck in that cycle where like the

29:15

only thing that I can talk about,

29:17

the only time people ever want to

29:20

talk to me or interested in me

29:22

is like through this victim narrative, right?

29:24

And so what is it what does

29:26

it do? Like even if I'm saying,

29:29

hey, I'm not a terrorist, like it's

29:31

still so dehumanizing. to be in a

29:33

world where the only times people care

29:35

about me is when that happens. And

29:37

so part of what I'm really interested

29:40

in doing and I appreciate your note

29:42

on like the importance of representation, the

29:44

depth of representation is like how do

29:46

we get out of that constant cycle

29:48

and say like, oh this is a

29:51

real person who by the way like

29:53

you wouldn't expect it by looking at

29:55

him but he likes sports or he

29:57

has a family. I mean one of

30:00

the funniest things that I observe I

30:02

had my two daughters were born was

30:04

like I would be pushing the stroller

30:06

down the streets of New York City

30:08

where like nobody makes eye contact with

30:11

you right like it's New York but

30:13

like it's home it's where we've lived

30:15

for a long time now and like

30:17

people would like smile at me and

30:19

wave at me and like I was

30:22

like what is going on and I

30:24

was like oh they they see me

30:26

as like a human being. because I

30:28

have a baby. Like I'm a father.

30:31

And so like what does it take

30:33

to actually undo? As you're saying, like

30:35

how do you undo some of that?

30:37

Like I don't think it's just by

30:39

denying the misrepresentation. It's actually like bringing

30:42

out the full human lives of people,

30:44

especially those that we have certain stereotypes

30:46

about. Let's talk about a couple of

30:48

the specific sick beliefs and philosophies that

30:50

you highlight in your work. One of

30:53

them is you talk about Charthikala. Yeah,

30:55

Charthikala. Yeah, Skip and Jabi. Charthikala. Can

30:57

you tell us a bit about that

30:59

and how that plays out in your

31:02

life and in your experience of the

31:04

world? The term Charidikala refers to eternal

31:06

optimism, and it comes at the end

31:08

of a prayer that we offer, usually

31:10

collectively. And you know, with my kids,

31:13

we do this every morning. before they

31:15

go to school. The request is, please

31:17

ensure eternal optimism, high spirits, and the

31:19

upliftment of all humanity. Sarbad Dapala. And

31:21

those two things go in hand. And

31:24

I found this to be such a

31:26

powerful practice. A simple story that I

31:28

can sort of share with you is

31:30

after 9-11 when, you know, there was

31:33

racist backlash in this country and my

31:35

family was locked up at home. We

31:37

didn't leave the house for a few

31:39

days. And it felt really dark and

31:41

we felt really pessimistic. I mean, in

31:44

the way that we did again with

31:46

the pandemic and all sorts of fires

31:48

that are going around in our world

31:50

right now, it's so easy to feel

31:52

hopeless. And in my dad, as I

31:55

was walking down one day, he was

31:57

like, aren't we so lucky? And I'm

31:59

like, what are you talking about? The

32:01

world feels pretty crappy. now, is like,

32:04

but your neighbors have been coming by

32:06

and delivering groceries and bringing meals for

32:08

us and your teammates and your teachers

32:10

have been checking in to see if

32:12

you're okay, like, we're so lucky. What

32:15

I learned then, and it's sort of

32:17

tied to Jardigla, is that there always

32:19

is goodness around us, like there's always

32:21

positivity around us, even when things feel

32:23

hopeless, and we just have to open

32:26

up our eyes to it. And if

32:28

we can do that, the goodness of

32:30

the people around us and the light

32:32

and the world around us can really

32:35

inspire us in ways that feel almost

32:37

impossible, like in moments right now. So

32:39

it's this sort of daily reminder of

32:41

eternal optimism. Like it's not a sugar

32:43

coating or a silver lining. It's like,

32:46

hey, develop this practice of seeing the

32:48

good around you. That's what it's meant

32:50

for me. You also talk in the

32:52

book about a practice that you do

32:54

of just walking the streets of New

32:57

York and just looking for each small

32:59

act of kindness that people do, which

33:01

that really struck me because this is

33:03

something I really struggle with. Yeah, no,

33:06

totally. And I'll be honest and say

33:08

like I find myself turning off the

33:10

news too and like turning off my

33:12

phone and being like, I don't want

33:14

to open my social media today because

33:17

what shitstorm is going to be on

33:19

like, like, I don't know. But like,

33:21

it's also true that like we're living

33:23

in an environment where we're bumparted where

33:25

we're bumparted. with negativity, right, with news

33:28

and social media and so on. And

33:30

so what does it look like for

33:32

us to have a practice that does

33:34

the opposite? And part of my thinking

33:37

around this practice that you're describing is

33:39

that the bombardment comes from a macro

33:41

level, right? And it's almost abstract. It's

33:43

like it's not really in our daily

33:45

life, but we know about it and

33:48

it's happening in the world around us

33:50

and actually like, this is new for

33:52

the human brain to be absorbing all

33:54

of this overwhelming information. And so I

33:57

started to just look locally and within

33:59

community and seeing like, hey, what outcome

34:01

would there be if I just watched

34:03

people? Like are people good or bad?

34:05

I don't know. And so if you

34:08

just watch them, I've had this consistent

34:10

experience whenever I've done this, that like

34:12

people are really good to each other.

34:14

And I mean, even in New York

34:16

where. the assumption is like people suck

34:19

and they don't take care of each

34:21

other like they really do and like

34:23

that really surprised me when I started

34:25

to notice in a really good way

34:28

where I started to feel more trust

34:30

and hoping the people around me which

34:32

it sounds almost cliche but like trust

34:34

is it's this feeling you have in

34:36

one another where you can have hope,

34:39

right? Because, you know, that people will

34:41

be there for you in hard times

34:43

and, you know, that people mean well

34:45

and even if you disagree with them,

34:47

they're still kind-hearted, right? Like, all these

34:50

things that we don't necessarily feel right

34:52

now, we can sort of inculcate again

34:54

with this practice. It also makes me

34:56

think about another big part of the

34:59

sick religion, which is service or SAVA.

35:01

SAVA is, you know, one of the,

35:03

I find one of the most attractive

35:05

parts of sick philosophy. The tradition is,

35:07

and the learning of the tradition is,

35:10

that you start doing SAVA as a

35:12

child, right? So like, even when you're

35:14

at the place of worship, Ecuador, like

35:16

you are passing out napkins. The way

35:18

we describe it is this term, bun-chakna,

35:21

which means you give and then you

35:23

partake. And that's supposed to be something

35:25

that's every aspect of your life. And

35:27

it's not that you have to abstain

35:30

from partaking or deny yourself the enjoyment

35:32

in life, but like you also have

35:34

to think about other people before you

35:36

think about yourself. And so Seva is

35:38

it's a practice that you can engage

35:41

to remind yourself that the world is

35:43

bigger than you and your ego is

35:45

misguided you and so by serving others

35:47

you are reinforcing this idea and diminishing

35:49

your ego your practice and that is

35:52

ultimately what leads to a more loving

35:54

way of life. Do the intentions matter,

35:56

right? Is it okay if we are

35:58

helping people not because we're selfless but

36:01

because we're supposed to or because it

36:03

makes us feel like a good person

36:05

to do. What do you think about

36:07

that? Yeah, it is like a classic

36:09

paradox and I think part of the

36:12

basis of that paradox relies on a

36:14

Western understanding of service, which is one

36:16

is to reduce people suffering. as people

36:18

need it. And the other one is

36:20

because I have privilege. And if I

36:23

have privilege, then I have a responsibility.

36:25

And I think both of those are

36:27

true. At least they ring true for

36:29

me. But it takes the outlook there

36:32

is very much based on an understanding

36:34

of service as being only for the

36:36

other person. Right? Like that is, I'm

36:38

serving you because it's going to transform

36:40

you and it's going to transform society.

36:43

if we're to understand service as

36:45

a spiritual practice and recognizing that

36:48

it can have a transformative experience

36:50

or transformative impact on you as

36:52

a person, right? It can change

36:54

you from the inside, which I

36:56

think we already know in our

36:58

hearts, by the way, because we've

37:00

all experienced it in some way,

37:02

right? When we serve people, we

37:04

know what it does to us

37:06

in our hearts, like that feeling

37:09

of you know, giving someone to

37:11

something who needs it, right? It

37:13

might be a meal or it

37:15

might be a jacket, right? Like,

37:17

it changes us. And so if

37:19

we can see service as something

37:21

that is also meant to help

37:23

us as we're helping others, something

37:25

that transforms us as we're transforming

37:28

society, then I think absolutely the

37:30

intention really matters because it's not

37:32

really going to bring you satisfaction

37:34

or joy internally. if you're not

37:36

experiencing that transformation. The idea of

37:38

like service changing us as well

37:40

and also being that we all

37:42

need purpose in our lives. That's

37:44

like a fundamental need for us

37:46

is to have an effect on

37:49

the world and others positively. Yeah,

37:51

if you look at some of

37:53

the research on the loneliness epidemic,

37:55

mental health prices, a lot of

37:57

this is tied to a lot.

37:59

purpose and a feeling that people

38:01

have, what's the point of trying

38:03

if I can't fix all the

38:05

world's problems? And it feels so

38:07

burdensome. And so part of what

38:10

I'm starting to understand is if

38:12

our ultimate happiness relies on a

38:14

perfect world, then we might as

38:16

well give up, right? Like the

38:18

world is never going to be

38:20

perfect. But if we understand with

38:22

some humility, right? we can do

38:24

what we can from where we

38:26

are and that in doing so

38:29

we can reduce people suffering and

38:31

we can also reduce our own

38:33

suffering through service like that is

38:35

a beautiful outcome and it's not

38:37

perfection but like what is this

38:39

expectation that perfection is even achievable?

38:41

I don't know where that comes

38:43

from. So I really find liberation

38:45

in letting go of this idea

38:47

of perfection as a goal or

38:50

even a pursuit and instead saying

38:52

I'm going to use this tool

38:54

as a way to bring myself

38:56

happiness through internal transformation. Simon, it

38:58

has been an absolute pleasure to

39:00

talk to you. Thank you so

39:02

much for being on the show

39:04

and thank you for the work

39:06

that you do. Same. Thanks Chris.

39:08

This was awesome. That

39:13

is it for this episode of How to Be a

39:15

Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Simrin

39:17

Jitz Singh. His book is called The Light We Give,

39:19

and his podcast is the Wisdom and Practice podcast. I

39:21

am your host, Chris Duffy, and you can find more

39:24

for me, including my weekly newsletter and information about my

39:26

live shows at Chris Duffy comedy.com. How to be a

39:28

Better Human is put together by a team who would

39:30

never make an offensive comment at a water park. On

39:32

the TED side, we've got Daniela Balaurezo, Ben Ben Chen,

39:34

Chloe, Shasha, Brooks, Lainey, Lot, Antonio Lay, and Joseph DeBrien.

39:36

This episode was fact-checked by Julia Dickerson, and Matthias Salas.

39:38

On the PRX side, we've got a group of folks

39:40

who, while I acknowledge that perfection is impossible in this

39:42

lifetime. They also do come pretty darn close. wouldn't

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39:47

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