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You are listening to How to Be a Better

1:43

Human. I am your host Chris Duffy. And

1:45

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now. And once again, that is

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vote dot webyawards.com, and we are

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in the podcast category under the

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best advice and how to show. Thank

2:47

you, thank you, thank you. Now on to

2:49

today's episode. We have got the poet Sarah

2:52

Kay talking about how to enrich your

2:54

everyday life with poetry. Sarah is one

2:56

of my all-time favorite artists, and she's

2:58

also one of my all-time favorite people.

3:00

I've had the great privilege of knowing

3:02

her since college, and it's such a

3:04

gift to have seen her work over

3:06

these years and to just know someone

3:08

as talented as she is. We are

3:11

re-releasing this conversation that Sarah and I

3:13

had back in 2021 today for a couple

3:15

reasons. I think it's a fantastic conversation. I

3:17

think it's one of the best episodes we've

3:20

ever done, and I think that it really

3:22

speaks to this moment, even though we recorded

3:24

it several years ago. Another reason, though,

3:26

is because Sarah's new collection of poems,

3:28

which is called A Little Daylight Left,

3:30

was just published this month. A Little Daylight

3:32

Left is such a beautiful collection of poems,

3:34

and I really hope that you will check

3:36

it out. And to give you a taste

3:39

of how great it is and how

3:41

great Sarah is, here is a new

3:43

poem from Sarah, this is from the

3:45

new collection, and this is Sarah performing

3:47

in front of a live audience in

3:49

New York City at the venue caveat.

3:51

Miles from any shoreline. I

3:53

frequently miss entire days, caught in

3:56

my brain's spider webs, but if

3:58

I happen to look up in time... to notice

4:00

that the darkness still has

4:02

a little daylight left to

4:04

swallow, I will ivy up the

4:07

fire escape to catch whatever embers

4:09

of the day are still slow

4:11

dying behind New Jersey. And last

4:13

week, through the fog of my

4:15

loneliness, I realized the living

4:18

room was slippery pink. which I

4:20

knew meant a light show

4:22

must be on display. So

4:24

with a quickness I reserve

4:26

for emergencies, I scampered to

4:28

the roof and sure enough,

4:31

an explosion of upside down

4:33

Clementine, cotton candy, cloud wisps,

4:35

was tie-dying the Hudson River

4:37

neon. And I swear I

4:39

am not a lightweight, but

4:41

I was color-drunk immediately, dizzy

4:43

with gasp and skyward reaching,

4:45

hoping my fingers might find

4:47

a bell. I could ring

4:49

that would summon all of

4:52

New York City to look

4:54

up and west. But there

4:56

was no bell and

4:58

no one to call,

5:00

just my own astonishment,

5:02

still willing to answer

5:04

after the first ring,

5:06

how predictable, one good

5:08

sunset, and I release

5:11

my nihilism like rose

5:13

petals behind a bridle

5:15

gown. Look, I have

5:17

married my cynicism. and renewed

5:19

my vows. But it didn't

5:21

stop the streetlights from coming

5:23

on at the exact moment

5:25

I passed beneath them when

5:27

nobody else was in the

5:29

park to see it like

5:31

the whole city was winking.

5:33

And yes, I blushed, the

5:35

way I do whenever someone

5:37

beautiful flirts with me. I

5:40

haven't stopped thinking about death. I

5:42

am just ringing every last

5:44

jaw drop from the tissue

5:46

between heart breaks. On a long

5:48

run, outside the city,

5:50

along a highway and

5:53

miles from any shoreline,

5:55

I found a starfish,

5:57

alone, on the asphalt.

6:00

An unsolvable mystery, with

6:02

no witness to corroborate.

6:04

And there I was,

6:06

again, wandering the streets

6:09

of Bewilderville, population one.

6:11

What else could I

6:13

possibly do but swing

6:16

wide the doors of

6:18

my delight to this

6:20

patron saint of unbelonging,

6:24

fragile and whole and

6:26

so far from home? If

6:28

you too have been the one,

6:31

nobody asked to dance, I

6:33

have a starfish, I'd love

6:35

to introduce you too. And

6:37

I don't have any proof.

6:39

But one time the wind,

6:41

or my ancestors, or

6:44

unseasonal warmth, carried

6:46

three hawks to my kitchen

6:49

window-sill to rattle my coffin

6:51

to cocoon, and two of

6:53

them left, but one of

6:56

them stayed. eyed me through

6:58

the glass like a

7:01

promise or a dare. So

7:03

lately, I am

7:05

trying to pick up

7:07

when the universe

7:10

calls. Okay, we're going

7:12

to be right back

7:15

with more from

7:17

Poet Sarah Kay

7:19

in just a moment.

7:32

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12:03

my relationship to poems is that

12:05

when I was in elementary school

12:08

kids we didn't go to the

12:10

cafeteria until middle school and so

12:12

from kindergarten through fourth grade everyone

12:15

either brought their lunch to school

12:17

with them or the school provided

12:19

lunch and so every single day

12:22

for those years my parents took

12:24

turns writing a little poem on

12:26

a piece of like neon colored

12:28

paper that they would fold and

12:31

put in my lunchbox. And so

12:33

neither of them are poets. I

12:35

don't think either of them would

12:37

consider themselves writers. And now looking

12:39

back, it seems like a little

12:41

too neat of an origin story

12:43

because it seems like they were

12:45

planting seeds for a future poet.

12:47

But I assure you, it was

12:49

not that. It was just one

12:51

of many ways that they demonstrated

12:53

to me that I was loved.

12:56

But basically what it did is

12:58

it. made it so that my

13:00

relationship to poems was that poems

13:02

became something that was dependable, like

13:04

clockwork. I knew I could expect it

13:06

every day, but it was also a

13:08

surprise. It was also a gift. It

13:10

was intimate. It was a secret. It

13:13

was this sign of care. from someone

13:15

who loved me enough to craft it.

13:17

And so I think that's really what

13:19

started my relationship to poems is what

13:21

I call the lunchbox poems. Well, that

13:23

also gets into one of the other things

13:26

I wanted to ask you about, which is

13:28

how do you incorporate word play and

13:30

poetry into your day-to-day life? You know,

13:32

all kinds of different ways, but frankly,

13:34

I don't. explicitly think

13:36

about until someone thoughtful like you

13:39

asks me to. But I would

13:41

say like, for example, when I

13:44

was in college, I every single

13:46

year would make Valentine's for all

13:48

of my pals on Valentine's Day

13:51

and I would write each of

13:53

them a personalized limerick. I'm like,

13:56

I feel like everything about me

13:58

screams like the kid. who brought

14:00

Valentine's for everybody in class. Like

14:02

that seems like. You have big Valentine

14:05

Limerick Energy for sure. Really big Valentine

14:07

Limerick Energy. So as a person

14:09

who knows you, I also know like you

14:12

love to do a Halloween costume. That's a

14:14

word play. I feel like you're someone who

14:16

cherishes when you find like a funny phrase

14:18

or a pun or something really that is

14:20

playing with language. You are like, I got

14:22

to share this with people. And you start

14:24

sending it around, take a photo or whatever

14:27

it as you document. Yeah, I mean,

14:29

it's maybe an affliction. Oh,

14:31

it's certainly a disease. There's

14:33

no doubt about it. I

14:36

know that there are so

14:38

many people who have less

14:40

positive responses to puns specifically,

14:42

but I just... I just

14:44

find them so delightful and

14:46

the Halloween thing happened because

14:48

many years ago I had

14:51

a dream like a full

14:53

like I was asleep had

14:55

a full actual dream and

14:57

in the dream I was

14:59

late to the Halloween day

15:01

parade in New York City which

15:03

I try to go to every

15:06

year. And in my dream, I

15:08

was like, oh, no, I don't

15:10

have a costume. Like, what am

15:12

I going to do? And so

15:14

in the dream, I went to

15:16

my closet, I pulled out this

15:18

like, like, hardcore leather jacket and

15:20

like a, collar with spikes on

15:22

it, I think, and I found

15:25

a blank white t-shirt and I

15:27

wrote this elaborate trigonometry equation and

15:29

the answer to the equation would

15:31

have been like cosine X, like

15:33

COSX, but instead of putting in

15:35

the answer, I put like a

15:38

blank line X. And so my

15:40

costume was that I was a

15:42

rebel without a cause. And when

15:44

I woke up from the dream, this

15:46

doesn't translate to audio, but

15:48

I'm shaking my head furiously.

15:50

How dare you, what wordplay,

15:53

atrocity by this? When I woke

15:55

up from the dream, like, my first

15:57

thought was like, you gotta be kidding

15:59

me. Like, my. subconscious could have been

16:01

working on like we have real

16:03

serious issues like you could have

16:05

been solving climate change and instead

16:07

you were out here like oh

16:09

you know what though what about

16:11

this trigonometry pun like that's what

16:13

we were working on in the

16:15

depths of our sleep but then

16:17

of course I was like well

16:19

I have the opportunity to make

16:21

my literal dreams come true why

16:23

would I not do that yeah

16:25

I had to do it and

16:27

now it's become a tradition of

16:29

terrible pun costumes that I can't

16:31

outrun what kind of advice do

16:33

you give people on how they

16:35

can incorporate wordplay into their lives

16:37

like this like how do you

16:39

get how do you get your

16:41

brain to start working on that

16:43

while you're sleeping it really has

16:45

to do with habits of observation

16:47

and giving yourself the opportunity to

16:49

relish in your own delight so

16:51

like I am genuinely delighted many

16:53

times a day by the smallest

16:55

elements of my life by the

16:57

most mundane details but I think

16:59

most people when they experience delight

17:02

they experience it in the moment

17:04

and then it flies through their

17:06

hands and they're on to the

17:08

next moment and so the poetry

17:10

work I think is when a

17:12

moment of delight happens to instead

17:14

of letting it fly away as

17:16

fast as it usually does to

17:18

just pin it just for long

17:20

enough to ask yourself like what

17:22

about this is delightful to me

17:24

and what about this could I

17:26

maybe try to find a way

17:28

to share whether that's in the

17:30

form of a poem or by

17:32

snapping a photograph or whatever like

17:34

I think that's where that comes

17:36

from how do you technically keep

17:38

track of the words or phrases

17:40

or things that delight you do

17:42

you do you have a notebook

17:44

is it an app in your

17:46

phone what are you doing yeah

17:48

you can't see it but I'm

17:50

holding it up I have a

17:52

little notebook that I keep nearby

17:54

at all times I would say

17:56

that this notebook is incredibly unpoetic

17:58

like I don't do any poetry

18:00

writing for the most part in this notebook. It's much more

18:02

record keeping and it is really about

18:05

those moments where something happens and I can

18:07

see it's going to fly away really fast

18:09

and so I just jot it down really

18:11

just to note it for later and then

18:13

when it is later and I'm like you

18:16

know what today is a writing day I

18:18

need to get some writing done then I

18:20

crack open this notebook and I have these

18:22

little you know I think of

18:24

them as Hanselin Gretel Gretel breadcrums

18:26

back to moments where I was

18:29

genuinely struck by something and I

18:31

can look at them and go, yeah,

18:33

that was a really wild thing. Or

18:36

oh man, look at how I've jotted

18:38

this same thing down three times. It's

18:40

clearly something that's sticking with me or,

18:43

you know, allowing that notebook to show

18:45

me what my brain has been snagging

18:47

on recently so that when I have

18:50

time to really meditate on it or

18:52

to really dig into it, that I

18:54

have clues. Because I think so many

18:56

people want to write to write. now

18:59

and honestly that is very hard to

19:01

do it that way I think so

19:03

this is a little a little trick

19:05

of just marking down these little delights

19:07

and curiosities so that when I have

19:09

the writing time I have these little

19:11

breadcrumbs to return to. Do you have

19:13

any sort of writing practice or routine where

19:16

you go back through those ideas and sort

19:18

them out into actual writing or or is

19:20

it less formulaic and more like

19:22

you just go back if you feel inspired?

19:25

I think a little bit of

19:27

both. I think sometimes whatever

19:29

has been floating around in my

19:31

brain shows up strongly enough

19:33

and pulls me to the desk.

19:35

And sometimes I have to

19:38

be intentional about making writing

19:40

time. I also think that

19:42

so much of my joy in

19:44

connection with poetry is the

19:46

writing and is the sharing of

19:48

my own work, but is also

19:51

just being around other people that

19:53

love poetry. And so just getting

19:56

to talk about poetry and analyze

19:58

text and discuss it. with folks

20:00

who also are passionate about poetry

20:03

in and of itself gets my

20:05

enthusiasm and gin running. And so

20:07

that also I think really helps

20:10

significantly in pushing me in my

20:12

own process too. And also I

20:15

think with an art firm like

20:17

poetry sometimes people assume that that

20:19

is a very solitary art form,

20:22

which it can be, certainly. And

20:24

like, when I'm keeping my notebook,

20:26

that's something I do for myself

20:29

by myself. But at least in

20:31

my case, I didn't fall in

20:34

love with poetry in a textbook

20:36

or a classroom. I fell in

20:38

love with poetry in a dive

20:41

bar. And it was because that

20:43

space was where poetry felt communal

20:46

and urgent that it really captivated

20:48

me. continues to be an element

20:50

of poetry that I really respond

20:53

to is the ability to be

20:55

in community with other people and

20:58

to share poetry with other people,

21:00

my own and others. I mean,

21:02

very few things make me as

21:05

alive, make me feel as alive,

21:07

as when I read a poem.

21:09

by someone else and I go,

21:12

oh my God, I needed this

21:14

poem right now. Like they found

21:17

language for a thing that I

21:19

couldn't find language for and they

21:21

did it and I have it

21:24

in my hands. Can you believe

21:26

this? And that feeling is just

21:29

like, you know, plugging my soul

21:31

into an amplifier or something, right?

21:33

As an educator, what's your favorite

21:36

exercise for getting people who don't

21:38

think of themselves as poets into

21:41

writing poetry? I would say that

21:43

one thing that I'm always thinking

21:45

about is trying to lower the

21:48

stakes around both poetry writing and

21:50

also performing, because those are two

21:52

things that I think people have

21:55

a tendency to really raise the

21:57

stakes for themselves. And so, you

22:00

know, I... like to start workshops

22:02

with asking folks to write some

22:04

kind of list because a list

22:07

as a form is much more

22:09

accessible I think immediately or at

22:12

least much more familiar to people.

22:14

People write lists all day long

22:16

in their life and so being

22:19

tasked with a list doesn't feel

22:21

as terrifying as being tasked with

22:23

a poem, I think. So in

22:26

my TED Talk, I mentioned writing

22:28

10 things I know to be

22:31

true, and that is a list

22:33

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22:35

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22:47

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22:50

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for years down the line. It's

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like a kind of amazing self-diagnostic

22:57

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22:59

recommend to a lot of people.

23:02

That one's pretty broad. Sometimes people

23:04

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23:06

specifics. So another one I sometimes

23:09

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23:11

learned by now. I like that

23:14

too. It's a list I really

23:16

enjoy. Of course there's you know,

23:18

ye old reasons you should date

23:21

me. Okay, ye old reasons you

23:23

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23:28

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23:30

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23:33

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23:35

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23:37

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23:42

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23:49

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23:52

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23:54

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23:57

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