0:00

What is the status of tuna

0:02

conservation? That's going to be the

0:04

focus on today's episode of the

0:06

How to Protect the Ocean podcast,

0:08

especially when it comes to sustainable

0:10

fisheries. on the podcast today, my

0:12

guest Dr. Gala Moreno from the

0:14

International seafood Sustainability Foundation is here

0:16

to talk about fish aggregation devices

0:18

and how they've improved over time

0:20

to actually become a data storing

0:22

and a capability of learning more

0:24

about oceanography on the high seas

0:26

and to be able to even

0:28

detect which species is below that fish

0:30

aggregation devices. We're going to talk about

0:32

what fads are and how they play

0:34

a role in conserving tuna fish in

0:36

commercial fishing on this episode of the.

0:39

how to protect the ocean podcast. Let's

0:41

start the show. Hey everybody, welcome back to

0:43

another exciting episode of the How to Protect

0:45

the Ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewis,

0:47

and this is the podcast where you find

0:50

out what's happening with the ocean, how you

0:52

could speak up for the ocean, what you

0:54

can do to live for a better ocean

0:56

by taking action. If you want to know

0:58

more about like, hey, is this tuna in

1:01

my pokey bowl sustainable? Like is it caught

1:03

sustainably? Is it something that I should be

1:05

eating or is it something that shouldn't be

1:07

eating? What constitutes as sustainable when we talk

1:09

about tuna commercial fishing? And you've heard probably

1:12

a lot of different things about how you

1:14

know tuna are caught. We've heard in the

1:16

past how you know tuna are caught, how

1:18

you know tuna are caught with dolphins so

1:20

that there's you know dolphins that die within

1:23

the tuna fishing industry and should you be

1:25

even tuna based on that? We don't know

1:27

a lot of the times. It gets really

1:30

confusing. Some of the advances in conservation that

1:32

have been done through the fishing industry and

1:34

the organization that she works for, the International

1:36

Seafood Sustainability Foundation, works with a variety of

1:39

different fleets across the world to look at

1:41

tuna and how tuna are fish and how

1:43

they can improve not only the efficiency of

1:45

catching tuna but catching the actual species

1:47

that they want and being able to

1:49

distinguish them. that are below the surface

1:51

like when you get a fish aggregation

1:53

device it brings in fish from all

1:56

over a lot of tuna are coming

1:58

in so what species of tuna are

2:00

going to fish for at that point

2:02

before the the information that we talked

2:04

to Gallo about on this episode you

2:06

would just put a per se net

2:08

in grab it and grab whatever's out

2:10

there. Now you can actually distinguish which,

2:12

like how much of a percentage of

2:14

a certain species is there. So if

2:17

one needs to be protected more than

2:19

others, then you can actually go and

2:21

catch the others and leave the protected

2:23

ones out and you can protect them

2:25

more. So a lot of cool research

2:27

that we talk about in this episode.

2:29

So without further ado, here is

2:32

Dr. Galla Moreno from the

2:34

International Seafood Sefur Sustainability Foundation,

2:36

talking about fish aggregation. Hey

2:38

Gala, welcome to the How

2:40

to Protect the Ocean podcast.

2:42

Are you ready to talk

2:44

about sustainable seafood? Yeah, I'm

2:46

excited. Thank you, Ender. You bet I'm

2:48

excited to have you on. This is

2:50

going to be a lot of fun.

2:53

This is something that we don't get

2:55

to talk about all the time is

2:57

sustainable seafood and fishing, and sustainable practices

2:59

in fishing, especially around fish aggregation devices.

3:01

It's something that is known within the

3:03

seafood industry and the fishing industry, but

3:06

it's not something we talk about publicly

3:08

a lot, and I feel as though...

3:10

some of my audience members, even me,

3:12

I don't know if I have a

3:14

full understanding of fish aggregation devices, because

3:16

I haven't worked with them a lot.

3:19

So we're going to talk a lot

3:21

about that and how it affects fisheries

3:23

and how we can do better with

3:25

FADs and fish aggregation devices. And I'm

3:27

looking forward to doing all that on

3:30

this episode. But before we do,

3:32

Kala, why don't you just let

3:34

us know who you are and

3:36

what you do? Yeah, sure. I'm

3:38

Kala Moreno, and I'm. we call

3:41

it ISSF. And well, I just

3:43

started working with tuna flits and

3:45

fissagrigating devices in my PhD. I

3:47

did it 20 years ago or

3:50

so. And since then I've been

3:52

working in all the oceans and

3:54

three tropical oceans with

3:57

plates with local

3:59

scientists. to reduce the impact

4:01

of phishing with peace aggregating

4:03

devices. Most of

4:05

my research focus on this, but

4:07

of course I work also in

4:09

other tuna fleets when they did.

4:11

When we talk about tuna fleets,

4:13

and we'll get into more of

4:15

this later on, it is such

4:17

a broad scope when we talk

4:19

about tuna fleets. I think we

4:21

hear about it a lot in

4:23

the public. We don't really get

4:25

how vast they are, where they

4:27

work, how many there are. It's

4:29

quite astonishing to hear, and we're

4:31

going to hear from it in

4:33

a bit when we chat more

4:35

about it, but I always feel

4:37

like when we hear about a

4:39

fleet, it is a fleet. It

4:41

literally is like hundreds of boats

4:43

and there are different fleets all

4:45

over the world, and it's hard

4:47

to keep track of all of

4:49

them, which I think is one

4:51

of the problems. It's

4:54

definitely interesting and probably working with

4:56

those fleets. You probably get a lot

4:58

of hands -on experience, especially through a

5:00

PhD, which I think is amazing.

5:02

But let's just talk about how you

5:04

got to where you are. Learn

5:06

a little bit more about you. What

5:08

got you interested in becoming in

5:10

a position where you are today? How

5:12

did that happen? Were you interested

5:14

in the ocean when you were younger?

5:16

Did you live by the ocean?

5:18

How did that all come to be?

5:23

It's a mix of influences.

5:26

Well, my family, we live

5:28

in the Basque country. We

5:30

come from the Basque country,

5:32

and this is in the

5:34

north of Spain, and this

5:36

region has a very strong

5:38

maritime tradition and fishing tradition. I

5:41

was always surrounded by

5:43

the sea and the love

5:45

for the sea, and

5:48

by that time when I

5:50

was a kid, they

5:52

were not influencers, no internet,

5:54

no mobile phones. So

5:57

my influencer was my

5:59

neighbor. was biologists and

6:01

he showed me many documentaries

6:03

and I was fascinated with

6:05

those all these documentaries so

6:07

this is it's it's been

6:09

surrounded by by the sea

6:12

and then so I have

6:14

very clear that I wanted

6:16

to study this marine science

6:18

and then at the university

6:20

I have a very good

6:22

teacher on physics management

6:24

and he made motivated

6:27

me a lot to pursue that career

6:29

so It was quite tasty. I can imagine,

6:31

yeah, having a neighbor that's a biologist,

6:33

that's got to be, you know, you

6:36

don't get that often, you know, depending

6:38

on where you live, but having that

6:40

maritime feeling, living by the coast, and

6:43

you probably had a lot, there's probably

6:45

a fishing community, I'm sure there's biologists

6:47

that are there that are working there,

6:50

so I think that's really great. In

6:52

you've had a lot of mentors, as

6:54

you mentioned, what was the best advice

6:57

that you received from those that really

6:59

made you be like, no, this is

7:01

what I want to do? Well, I

7:03

think that the best advice you can

7:06

receive from any mentor or

7:08

even your family or any

7:10

is pursue what you like,

7:12

do what you feel is

7:14

your interest, don't worry about

7:16

the future, just follow what

7:18

you love. So I think many of

7:20

the teachers, they encourage me

7:22

to do what, and of

7:25

course I think that you

7:27

are good when you like

7:29

something, you are good or not.

7:31

For sure, yeah, no, absolutely. I think

7:33

it's the passion definitely follows, especially when

7:36

you talk about marine biology, fisheries, biology,

7:38

fisheries management. It's such a big aspect

7:40

of it. I think it's different, and

7:42

you can probably say the same thing,

7:45

or you can tell me if you

7:47

feel the same way in Europe, but

7:49

like when you become marine biology, it's

7:51

more than just a job. You know,

7:54

it's really is a passion, and you'll

7:56

find like a lot of biologists willing

7:58

to work for free. look at any

8:00

other things like what do you mean

8:03

you'd work for free like yeah I

8:05

would do this for free yeah yeah

8:07

because you you enjoy like the ocean

8:09

that you be on you're on boats

8:12

whether it's a fishing boat or a

8:14

research boat or whatever that might be

8:16

you get to be on these boats

8:18

and you get to like see the

8:21

ocean and and like dolphin bow riding

8:23

on your along your ship and you

8:25

know you get to see these tuna

8:27

fish that are that are that are

8:29

massive and and and they're just gorgeous

8:32

and and it's just one of those

8:34

things where it's like like I don't

8:36

think people understand outside of being biologists,

8:38

whether it's wildlife biology or marine biology,

8:41

there really is something that I, I

8:43

don't know about you, like obviously I

8:45

want to retire and I want to

8:47

enjoy myself, but I can't see myself

8:49

stop doing marine biology. in retirement. I

8:52

feel like that would become my hobby.

8:54

You know, let me, like I think

8:56

that's what it is. I've never thought

8:58

about retiring and not doing that. It's

9:01

never, never happened. Maybe when I get

9:03

older, I don't know, but I'm almost

9:05

there. So it's not, I'm not too

9:07

far off. So about 20 years away.

9:10

So, about 20 years away. So we'll

9:12

see how I feel then, but you

9:14

never know. But I think it's really

9:16

interesting. dolphins I want to work with

9:18

sharks and but as you got closer

9:21

and you had that professor fisheries management

9:23

what was it about fisheries management that

9:25

got you to be like yeah this

9:27

is this is what my passion lies

9:30

is where I want to follow because

9:32

it's not an easy thing to do,

9:34

right? No, it's quite complex and involves

9:36

many actors and especially with tuna that

9:38

these emigratory species, worldwide distribution. So it's

9:41

not easy, but for me what's the

9:43

path was quite natural because as soon

9:45

as I finished my PhD I went

9:47

on board a personer, a scientific

9:50

observer in the Indian Ocean and

9:52

So I really understood at sea.

9:54

all the implications of how features

9:56

behave, strategies, fishing, and then I

9:59

was starting tuna behavior, but I

10:01

also studied fissure behavior while I

10:03

was at sea. So once I

10:05

finished my PhD, I have quite

10:08

clear that I wanted to improve.

10:10

fisheries management and taking into account

10:12

fissures and their knowledge. So it

10:14

was quite evident for me. That

10:17

was the way. That's awesome. I've

10:19

always had a great opportunity to

10:21

be on fishing boats and meet

10:23

fissures and I love the culture.

10:26

I love the way they act

10:28

like they all everybody's unique every

10:30

time you go on it on

10:32

a different ship and you can

10:35

see it but as a fisheries

10:37

observer i've i've never been on

10:39

as a fisheries observer i've been

10:41

on as a marine mammal observer

10:44

but never a fisheries observer so

10:46

i felt it a little bit

10:48

and and there's There are things

10:50

like it's really it's really interesting

10:53

because you get a lot of

10:55

great experience as a fisheries biologist

10:57

because you get to see all

10:59

these different fish you can see

11:02

how it's done you know you

11:04

can see how many how quickly

11:06

how quickly it happens you know

11:08

when the fish come aboard you

11:11

have to identify them and measure

11:13

them and all this kind of

11:15

stuff. But there's a little bit

11:17

of contention when you're an observer

11:20

on a fishing boat, on a

11:22

fishing boat, because some of the

11:24

crew may not like you being

11:26

there, because you're there as a

11:29

regulatory, were you there as a

11:31

research capacity or was more of

11:33

a regulatory capacity? I've been researching

11:35

and also like following compliance. Gotcha.

11:38

So how was that different when

11:40

you'd like for those for both

11:42

the research as well as the

11:44

compliance for you when you were

11:47

in there like do you find

11:49

that there was more of like

11:51

they there was more of contention

11:53

like more of conflict when they

11:56

when you're on as compliance rather

11:58

than the research? In

12:00

my case, I can say that

12:02

perhaps in the beginning when you

12:05

arrive at the vessel, like the

12:07

first impression, when you go for

12:09

compliance, it can be harder in

12:11

the beginning to be respected by

12:14

the crew. Yes. But if you

12:16

have the tools, I mean the

12:18

emotional skills and the knowledge, you

12:21

can. Yeah. I mean, for me,

12:23

I can't distinguish when I was

12:25

on board for research or for

12:28

compliance, just in the beginning, but

12:30

when you set the rules, I

12:32

mean, is when, okay, I'm here.

12:35

And of course, sometimes there are

12:37

some moments in which, in the

12:39

beginning, they try to, how do

12:42

you say, see what is your...

12:44

opinion about things and in the

12:46

beginning there is like they are

12:49

testing you that right if you

12:51

pass the test it it's fine

12:53

yeah I totally get that I

12:56

can see that because it's also

12:58

from a research perspective a lot

13:00

of these fishers doesn't matter anybody

13:03

on the crew what what their

13:05

role is they're generally interested in

13:07

what you do from a research

13:10

perspective. Like they're interested in where

13:12

the data goes, how it's done,

13:14

the trends. I mean a lot

13:16

of times they know the trends

13:19

more than we do, just from

13:21

what they've seen and how long

13:23

it takes to catch and whether

13:26

they're catching more or less, they

13:28

see that happen. They can come

13:30

up with different reasons why. Some

13:33

of them are scientific, some of

13:35

them are little folklore and so

13:37

forth, but it's really interesting to

13:40

interact with them. You know it's

13:42

it from a perspective of being

13:44

on a on a ship You

13:47

know I've had that perspective, but

13:49

being on a ship as a

13:51

woman is a lot different right?

13:54

It's it's it's you know There's

13:56

certain concessions like during on the

13:58

ship because you have to have

14:01

your own room and stuff like

14:03

I've been bunking with four other

14:05

guys in one cabin and stuff

14:08

like that. What's it like as

14:10

a woman to go on one

14:12

of these ships? Can it be

14:14

intimidating at times? Do you find

14:17

that the crew, it might be

14:19

nicer to you? How is that different?

14:21

Well, it highly depends

14:24

on the crew. Yeah. I

14:26

mean, it's like when you

14:28

go to a research team

14:31

and... They can be very

14:33

different. I have not had

14:35

any issue. I've been always,

14:38

I can tell you in

14:40

Spanish vessels, I never had

14:43

an issue because of

14:45

being a woman. But

14:47

I know that being a

14:50

scientist. But I know

14:52

that sometimes women have

14:54

issues. It has not

14:56

been my case on

14:59

board vessels. I was

15:01

respected and I had,

15:03

I mean, no problem. That's

15:06

good. With them. Yeah. But

15:08

I know that it's happened.

15:10

Sometimes it's hard for

15:13

women to go on board.

15:15

I mean, it's when you,

15:17

for instance, in a person

15:19

or you can be surrounded

15:22

by 28 months working.

15:24

So yeah, but you know.

15:26

I think I'm quite used

15:28

to be surrounded by men

15:30

in my work. I mean,

15:32

in science, when I started

15:35

with with acoustics or sonar

15:37

technology, I was surrounded

15:39

by men also. Gotcha.

15:41

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's it's it's

15:43

it's especially, you know, in our

15:46

generation too, when you as you

15:48

as you come up, there were

15:50

a lot more men in the

15:52

field, especially in fishing. It's more

15:54

of a predominantly male sort of

15:56

field. We're starting to see a

15:58

lot more female. scientists come through

16:01

a lot more. I mean,

16:03

it's been happening for 20,

16:05

even, you know, 20 years

16:07

ago, it was starting to

16:10

happen and we're starting to

16:12

see that more and more.

16:14

What advice would you give

16:16

them if they want to

16:18

be a fisheries observer, whether

16:21

it be for compliance or

16:23

whether it be for research?

16:25

What advice would you give

16:27

a lot of these young

16:29

scientists that want to get

16:31

some experience? for them, also

16:34

for the crew to have

16:36

women on board. Yeah, true.

16:38

And well, I would say

16:40

that my advice is to

16:42

go for it. I mean,

16:45

it's the same advice I

16:47

would give for anybody or

16:49

especially women in science because

16:51

too often women. thing that

16:53

oh I don't deserve this

16:56

I'm not going to measure

16:58

up on this position I'm

17:00

not going to go on

17:02

board because I fear that

17:04

I don't know so I

17:07

think they should go for

17:09

it even if they think

17:11

they are not ready they

17:13

should go yes you're ready

17:15

You have the degree, you

17:17

know, you have the degree,

17:20

you've done the schooling, you've

17:22

done the IDs. And you

17:24

learn quickly on those boats

17:26

too, right? You learn very

17:28

quickly. Yeah, awesome. Okay. Now,

17:31

let's talk about ISSF. You've

17:33

been there almost a decade

17:35

from what I've seen in

17:37

my research of view. Yeah.

17:39

How did that all start

17:42

working with ISSF? Was that

17:44

out of your PhD or

17:46

had you worked in other

17:48

places before? I was before

17:50

in another research institute in

17:53

Spain called Asti. Okay. But

17:55

I was already working for

17:57

ISSF in some specific. issues

17:59

with fissures and research. So

18:01

India and I end up

18:03

in ISSSF 10 years ago,

18:06

yes. But mostly I continue

18:08

doing same topics and research.

18:10

But because ISSSF works globally,

18:12

before I was more focused

18:14

on Spanish fleets. Right. And

18:17

now I work globally. Okay.

18:19

What's that like the change

18:21

from going? just in Spain

18:23

to working globally. What's the

18:25

fun part of it and

18:28

what are the challenges of

18:30

it? Well, for me it's

18:32

wonderful. I don't, I don't,

18:34

sometimes the issue of having

18:36

calls very late at night.

18:38

Oh yeah, different time zones.

18:41

Yeah. So this is the

18:43

practical issue. Sometimes I have

18:45

to work with, you know,

18:47

New Caledonia or Hawaii and

18:49

this is very late for

18:52

me. Then for me, the

18:54

adventure of working globally is

18:56

very good because I have,

18:58

I love meeting people, working

19:00

with people and learning from

19:03

them. exchanging ideas. So when

19:05

you visit so many fleets,

19:07

so many people, so many

19:09

cultures, there are a lot

19:11

of diversity. I love it.

19:14

I like it. Yeah, I

19:16

can imagine. It must be

19:18

a lot different to go

19:20

from just sort of in-country

19:22

and then globally and to

19:24

see how things are done.

19:27

in different areas of the

19:29

world with the same type

19:31

of, maybe not the same

19:33

type of species, but the

19:35

same type of fish. And

19:38

to be able to see

19:40

how that's changed culturally and

19:42

how that's changed even from

19:44

a logistics point of view.

19:46

So I think that's really

19:49

interesting. Now your work, you

19:51

said you work with a

19:53

lot of fleets. Can you

19:55

talk about what that entails

19:57

when you work with a

20:00

lot of fish? lot of

20:02

fleets? Well, I'm mainly working

20:04

with tropical tuna per se

20:06

fleets. This is a specific

20:08

fishing gear, although I've been

20:10

working with Poland line fleets.

20:13

Okay. Well, I've been working

20:15

with mainly industrial feats, those

20:17

that rely a lot on

20:19

the use of fish aggregating

20:21

devices. So, for instance, I

20:24

work with... Ecuadorian fleets, Colombia,

20:26

Papua New Guinea, Ghana, Philippines.

20:28

So I work with very

20:30

different cultures. Strategies, some are

20:32

more attached to traditions. So

20:35

you learn, you have always

20:37

something to learn and also

20:39

something to share. When you

20:41

work globally, you can, it's

20:43

like a cross-pollination, of the

20:46

ideas you have. So perhaps

20:48

something that is working in

20:50

Ecuador, some Fisher tell you,

20:52

see, I'm using this practice

20:54

and it works for shards

20:56

or whatever, you can go

20:59

to Philippines and share this

21:01

idea. So it's really nice

21:03

to work globally. I can

21:05

imagine. Yeah, now you mentioned

21:07

a lot of them use

21:10

persane nets, right? Can you

21:12

talk about what that is

21:14

for the audience to like

21:16

what it actually, what the

21:18

device is, like what that

21:21

fishing gear is? The fish

21:23

aggregate in the base? No,

21:25

sorry, the persane nets. Yeah,

21:27

persane is a fishing gear

21:29

which uses a fishing net

21:31

that encircles the fish. So

21:34

they deploy the net and

21:36

then they encircle the fish

21:38

with the net and they

21:40

close it the bottom it

21:42

is a pursue and they

21:45

then they retrieve the the

21:47

the whole the net. So

21:49

almost becomes like it's it's

21:51

almost like a net where

21:53

they come up and they're

21:56

all at the bottom of

21:58

the net as they bring

22:00

it up. Let's talk so

22:02

we have that that's how

22:04

they catch them so they

22:07

encircle them they bring them

22:09

up and that's how they

22:11

catch them. Let's talk about

22:13

fish aggregation aggregation devices. You

22:15

know can you just talk

22:17

about what that is like

22:20

just define it for the

22:22

audience and then we can

22:24

go into the different ones

22:26

that they have. Okay, so

22:28

vis-avigating devices are floating objects,

22:31

human-made floating objects. So they

22:33

are typically a floating structure

22:35

that has two components. One

22:37

is the surface component, which

22:39

is typically a raft. And

22:42

then it has a tail

22:44

that can reach up to

22:46

50 meters, depending on the

22:48

ocean. But let's see an

22:50

average of 50 meters. And

22:53

these are used with a

22:55

geolocating boy. So the fishing

22:57

strategy is that fissures, they

22:59

deploy this floating structure at

23:01

sea with a geolocating boy

23:03

that nowadays provide an estimate

23:06

of the biomass beneath the

23:08

fat. So they deploy it

23:10

and leave it adrift for

23:12

a couple of weeks or

23:14

a month. And once they

23:17

think or they see in

23:19

the ecosystem, that tuna is

23:21

around their flooding object, they

23:23

go and catch it. So

23:25

this is the strategy and

23:28

the structure of the disaggregating

23:30

device. Now there are different

23:32

devices though, right? And it's

23:34

all based on what works

23:36

in different parts of the

23:38

world and things like that.

23:41

Are there like, you know,

23:43

hundreds of different devices or

23:45

are they pretty much the

23:47

same? Like how different are

23:49

they when you start? Like

23:52

say when you look at

23:54

a fish aggregation device that's

23:56

used in Hawaii compared to

23:58

like the are they similar

24:00

or are they different or

24:03

how does that work? Well

24:05

in terms of drifting

24:07

facts they are quite similar.

24:09

Sometimes we can say that they

24:11

can vary in the in the death,

24:14

the rich, in the rough they use.

24:16

Usually it typically

24:18

is bamboo but in

24:21

some countries they use

24:23

other materials or just

24:25

person corks asportation. But

24:28

for instance, then we have

24:30

anchor fats. Those anchor

24:32

fats are used by

24:34

some artisanal fleets, mostly,

24:36

in the, especially in

24:38

the Western Pacific and

24:40

in the ocean. You

24:42

can find thousands of

24:44

them. And then the

24:46

structure is different. They

24:48

have been made of bamboo

24:51

initially, but they are using

24:53

more plastic now. FADs are

24:55

they retrieved after they're used

24:57

or do they just leave

24:59

them out there? When they set, when

25:02

they conduct a fishing set

25:04

on the fat, they usually

25:06

retrieve it if the fat

25:08

is drifting towards outside the

25:10

fishing town or towards an

25:13

area that it's not productive

25:15

or they think they are

25:17

there is not going to

25:19

be a irrigation anymore. They

25:21

retrieve it. The issue is

25:23

that some... fats and that

25:25

the loss or abandoned because

25:27

they they drift outside

25:30

the efficiency and I

25:32

mean the the time

25:34

from the deployment to

25:37

the visit there is there

25:39

like two weeks or one

25:41

month and in this

25:43

month fats can drift

25:46

outside or Right. Just never

25:48

know. It's the ocean. You never

25:50

know sometimes. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Are

25:52

there like GPS units attached to

25:54

them or satellite GPS units that

25:56

they can return? It's a boy.

25:58

With satellite connection. I keep it

26:01

with equipment and ecosystem which provides

26:03

a rough estimate of biomass. But

26:05

not all of them. That's got

26:08

to be expensive to put together

26:10

each of these fads to have.

26:12

Can some tuna fleets afford them

26:15

and others not or like how

26:17

does that how does that work?

26:20

Nowadays almost every fat has a

26:22

boy with an ecosystem there. It's

26:24

more expensive but it's more expensive

26:27

to travel for instance. for these

26:29

to a fat, to a fish

26:31

aggregating device, consuming full and time,

26:34

and to find out there is

26:36

nothing there. So, yeah, the echosunder,

26:38

it's, in fact, it has been

26:41

a really good, I mean, it

26:43

has been an incredible improvement and

26:45

the way fats are feast, because

26:48

now fish can plan their strategy

26:50

before going at sea, just looking

26:53

at biomass. Yes, yeah, interesting. So

26:55

from a fishery's perspective, like if

26:57

I'm a fisher, I want these

27:00

fish aggregation devices, like these are

27:02

good for me because they attract

27:04

the fish, then I know that

27:07

they're going to be there, especially

27:09

now with the data that I

27:11

have, there's more likely a chance

27:14

that they're going to be there.

27:16

I can go out there when

27:18

there's stuff out there. But from

27:21

a fishery's management perspective, like from

27:23

the ecology side or from the

27:26

conservation side, are fads a good

27:28

thing or a bad thing like

27:30

from a from a conservation perspective?

27:33

Well the first thing is there

27:35

for sustainability is using a fad

27:37

part of sustain it like is

27:40

it considered sustainable to use that

27:42

like are we taking like we're

27:44

getting more efficient by taking the

27:47

fish but is that a good

27:49

thing or a bad thing like

27:51

from a from a conservation perspective?

27:54

Well the first thing is that

27:56

any fishing gear comes with an

27:58

impact. So we want you really

28:01

want to First, we need to

28:03

accept a level of impact or

28:06

assume there is going to be

28:08

an impact. For sure, fats are,

28:10

some people think are bad and

28:13

I have listened to many people

28:15

saying fats are bad. If we

28:17

look at, if we build our

28:20

opinion based on science and we

28:22

look at data, then we can

28:24

say that fats are not bad.

28:27

Right. And that I think, of

28:29

course, there are things to improve,

28:31

but fats can be, and this

28:34

is entirely possible. I mean, we

28:36

can't, we have a look 10

28:39

years ago, there was little, 20

28:41

years ago, there was nothing on

28:43

the fats management, and now we

28:46

have improved a lot. So if

28:48

we have a look to data.

28:50

I would say fats are not

28:53

bad, but of course there is

28:55

an impact of using fat. Right,

28:57

right. When you work with the

29:00

fishing, like fleet, on fats and

29:02

the research around fats and making

29:04

sure that it's sustainable, it's properly

29:07

done. What's, what's, are they, you

29:09

know, jumping in with you? Okay,

29:12

let's make sure this is done

29:14

as... you know we want to

29:16

look at the compromise but we

29:19

also want to make sure we're

29:21

catching the right amount of fish

29:23

but we also don't want to

29:26

have too much of an impact

29:28

like you said there's always an

29:30

impact but we don't have too

29:33

much of an impact what it

29:35

when you work with those like

29:37

I know ISF have like a

29:40

really good relationship with fishing fleet

29:42

so how do you approach that

29:45

saying like yeah we want to

29:47

just see you know how these

29:49

fads work and you know are

29:52

they are they good for for

29:54

the conservation of fish how do

29:56

they react to that No, it's,

29:59

it's, I mean, we always work

30:01

with pieces from the first step

30:03

of our research. So it's not

30:06

that I go with a new

30:08

fat sign and say, you have

30:10

to. try this, no. No, our

30:13

approach in ISSAF is that we

30:15

try to find a solution with

30:18

them. So for instance, it was

30:20

a huge challenge to move towards

30:22

non entangling fat, which are fats

30:25

that don't have any netting in

30:27

their construction. Okay. So because the

30:29

conventional fat or traditional fat used

30:32

before they had fishing nets and

30:34

this was creating... cost fishing because

30:36

marrying found out was entangling in

30:39

fat structures. So we had this

30:41

challenge of moving towards fats without

30:43

knitting and we work with fissures

30:46

from the beginning. We choose some

30:48

fissures that we know and that

30:50

we trust and they trust us.

30:53

So we've been building for years

30:55

a relationship which is really important.

30:58

And then also we know who

31:00

to ask who to ask who

31:02

to ask because You know, visas

31:05

are like scientists. They have an

31:07

expertise. I mean, if you go

31:09

to a doctor because you have

31:12

a headache, you go to an

31:14

specialist. So with visas is the

31:16

same. You go to someone that

31:19

is a specialist in what you

31:21

want. Yeah. And so we have

31:23

very clear the people, we both,

31:26

which is really, we have a

31:28

method for that. And from then

31:31

we start finding the solution with

31:33

them and it's. That's the way

31:35

we work. Right. But, but the

31:38

challenge here is that we are

31:40

working in a worldwide, I mean,

31:42

it's the global reach is the

31:45

challenge. So for that we've been

31:47

working, doing the skippers also everywhere,

31:49

showing what other fishes are doing

31:52

and it works and then making

31:54

trials with them and all this.

31:56

Well, I mean I feel as

31:59

though you know fishers and scientists

32:01

are very similar you know they

32:04

experiment right and you know and

32:06

that's and that's how they do

32:08

it because they have to figure

32:11

out ways you're you know fishers

32:13

are working out on an ocean

32:15

that can be very calm at

32:18

times but most of the time

32:20

it's not as calm and it's

32:22

a little chaotic and there are

32:25

times you have to I have

32:27

a feeling a lot of the

32:29

the the fish aggregation devices have

32:32

develop the way they develop in

32:34

certain parts of the world because

32:37

of the environment that they're surrounded

32:39

by. They have to be durable.

32:41

They have to, you know, make

32:44

sure that they're still there when

32:46

they go out and get them.

32:48

And in certain areas, like in

32:51

the Pacific, it could be very

32:53

rough. You know, any ocean could

32:55

be extremely rough and you have

32:58

to make sure that it works

33:00

there. And so I'm sure... a

33:02

lot of the fads have been

33:05

rigged that way so that they

33:07

won. They're just there when you

33:10

get them. And so it's kind

33:12

of interesting to see the different

33:14

stages of FADs. And I'm sure

33:17

they've gotten a lot better, not

33:19

only from a conservation standpoint, but

33:21

from an efficiency standpoint, as we

33:24

talked about with the data and

33:26

having the... the machinery and the

33:28

data that you can get from

33:31

there. And so I think that's

33:33

really interesting. Obviously from a scientific

33:35

point of view, as you and

33:38

I know of both being scientists,

33:40

it's all experimentation, right? This is

33:42

how we work with things and

33:45

sometimes it works out in our

33:47

favor and sometimes it doesn't work

33:50

out in our favor. But let's,

33:52

you know, when we, let's talk

33:54

about some of the research that

33:57

you've done specifically. Can you talk

33:59

about one of the projects that

34:01

you've worked on recently that we

34:04

could talk about in terms of

34:06

looking at FADs and how it

34:08

impacts the environment? Yeah. I've been

34:11

working mainly lastly in three topics.

34:13

One is biodegradable fat. You can

34:15

choose one of them. the move

34:18

towards biodegradable fats and this is

34:20

because those fats are then that

34:23

lost or abandoned, they can cause

34:25

damage on coral reefs or benthic

34:27

ecosystems. So we are, we design

34:30

a fad that is made of

34:32

organic materials and I've been also

34:34

working with acoustic discrimination of tropical

34:37

tuna species and this has been

34:39

a this is still we are

34:41

working on it and this is

34:44

a huge effort we've done so

34:46

that fissures can have a better

34:48

estimate of what they have in

34:51

the water before they set the

34:53

fishing net. So this is too

34:56

fiss more selectively. So you're talking

34:58

about actually detecting the species based

35:00

on the sound of the fish,

35:03

like the acoustics of the fish.

35:05

So this is like what we

35:07

do a lot with marine mammals,

35:10

but marine mammals emit a noise.

35:12

You know, you can hear their

35:14

calls and a lot of times

35:17

you can tell which whale or

35:19

whatever is there. Now you're talking

35:21

about being able to distinguish between

35:24

the different species. How? How is

35:26

that happening? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

35:29

it can happen and it's we

35:31

use a change different what in

35:33

a fish aggregating devices we have

35:36

three main species tropical tuna species

35:38

and that those are Skipjack yellow

35:40

thing and Big Eye and we

35:43

are using a difference in their

35:45

morphology because the Skipjack they don't

35:47

have swim bladder. Oh, okay. And

35:50

big, I, yeah, and big I

35:52

tuna and yellow paint tuna, they

35:54

do have the swim bladder. And

35:57

the swim bladder is a balloon

35:59

that feels have inside and is

36:01

filled with air. And this balloon

36:04

of the swim bladder is what

36:06

the sounds reflect very. strongly. So

36:09

when you use a given frequency,

36:11

if you touch a fist with

36:13

swim bladder, the equal, the back

36:16

scatter of this equal is going

36:18

to be a lot more stronger

36:20

than those that don't have swim

36:23

bladder. So at fist or gating

36:25

devices, if we encounter, for instance,

36:27

skip yag and big eye. We

36:30

know that the frequency response of

36:32

the two species is going to

36:34

be different. And this is how

36:37

we work with the acoustics. That

36:39

is so cool. That is so

36:42

cool. That is so cool. Now

36:44

between the, sorry, which were the

36:46

ones with this, the swimblowers, is

36:49

this, the big guy in the

36:51

skipjack? Yes, they do have swimblader.

36:53

So can you detect between those

36:56

two species based on, do they

36:58

reflect back different? like backscatter just

37:00

be based on their morphology? It's

37:03

more difficult. Okay, yeah, so it's

37:05

a little bit, yeah, it's more,

37:07

it's more difficult, but what we

37:10

found out is that the, the

37:12

yellow film, their... frequency response is

37:15

flat. So for instance, if you

37:17

use a low frequency and a

37:19

high frequency, the behavior of the

37:22

response is going to be quite

37:24

flat. But if you use with

37:26

a big eye, a low frequency

37:29

and a high frequency, you will

37:31

have a stronger response in low

37:33

frequency. So what you need to

37:36

discriminate the species is use at

37:38

the same time. a low and

37:40

a high frequency. And this is

37:43

what we are working with boy

37:45

manufacturers and I guess on their

37:48

voice manufacturers to see if they

37:50

can introduce this knowledge in their

37:52

voice. Yeah, that would be amazing.

37:55

Yeah, that would be fun. Now,

37:57

let's talk about from an application

37:59

standpoint, obviously the science is cool

38:02

on this, like it's, I'm geeking

38:04

out just listening to this, like

38:06

this is a lot of fun.

38:09

But when we talk about the

38:11

application for fissures, right, so you

38:13

have this this instrument, the acoustic instrument

38:16

on the buoy, and then it is

38:18

able to detect what's there and then

38:20

bring it back to land or to

38:23

the ship that's close by. From an

38:25

application standpoint, are there certain times

38:27

of the year? where you can

38:29

catch certain types of species. Is

38:31

that like, are they seasonal? And

38:33

they can only catch like, say,

38:35

big eye or yellow fin or

38:37

skip jack at certain times of

38:39

the year? In general, they

38:41

share the three species or

38:44

two species are present simultaneously

38:46

at fast. Okay. Of course,

38:48

you can have different species

38:50

composition and this can vary

38:52

depending on the presence, the

38:54

local presence of the different

38:57

species. But in general, you

38:59

can find two or

39:01

three species at the same

39:03

time. So the challenge

39:06

is the challenge to

39:08

fish, for instance, only

39:10

the species that it's

39:13

in healthy condition, let's

39:15

say. This can be done

39:17

through acoustics because

39:20

otherwise the fissures

39:22

will encircle always

39:24

the three species. The

39:26

idea behind using this

39:29

acoustic is that fissures

39:31

they have on the bridge

39:33

a screen with all the

39:35

fat they have at sea.

39:37

So if they have a

39:40

percentage of the species present

39:42

at its fat, they can

39:44

decide to avoid areas with a

39:46

lot of big eye if big

39:49

eye needs to be protected in

39:51

that ocean or yellow fin. If

39:53

Yellowfin needs to be protected in

39:55

that ocean, so the idea is

39:58

that they can be more... in.

40:00

taking sustainable decisions. Yeah. So it's

40:02

not just a guess where you

40:04

just throw the net in, because

40:07

you know that there's fish there,

40:09

and then you just bring it

40:11

up, and then whatever you catch,

40:14

you catch. If there's certain species

40:16

that may not be doing well

40:18

that year, that season, then they

40:20

can be doing well that year

40:23

or that season, then they can

40:25

just be like, they can, they

40:27

can, they can make. in the

40:29

field decisions that are more sustainable,

40:32

just right off the bat, just

40:34

by having better data and science

40:36

around that. That is awesome. That

40:39

is so cool. If you think

40:41

about it, because I mean, it's

40:43

not, there's no guesswork anymore, and

40:45

it's not as if, well, we

40:48

just put the net in, we

40:50

didn't know what was in there,

40:52

we just knew that there were

40:55

fish there, we knew it was

40:57

tuna, but we didn't know which

40:59

species it was. What a find.

41:01

That is so cool. Where are

41:04

we in terms of the deployment

41:06

of this? Now we're just trying

41:08

to figure out if we can

41:10

put it on the buoys and

41:13

how to fast it on the

41:15

buoys? Well, some of the manufacturers

41:17

are already working with two frequencies.

41:20

But here there are many improvements

41:22

to introduce because you can improve

41:24

your hardware, for instance having a

41:26

dual beam transducer. So when the

41:29

eco comes, you know where it

41:31

comes from in the beam. So

41:33

there are some hardware improvements. And

41:35

then there is the improvement of

41:38

the how to translate the decibels,

41:40

so the electric signal into biomass.

41:42

We are working in these two

41:45

things together with manufacturers and in

41:47

fact we are now in like

41:49

three projects with manufacturers. The three

41:51

manufacturers exist nowadays to improve their

41:54

hardware and interpretation of the signals.

41:56

Yes. Un real. Real. Even to

41:58

think about this, like from a

42:01

conservation standpoint, this is huge. I

42:03

mean, tuna are in trouble. We

42:05

know that, like with, you know,

42:07

with the amount of fishing that's

42:10

been done in the past and

42:12

just not being able to distinguish

42:14

what fish are down there. And

42:16

a lot of the times we

42:19

blame fissures and we blame the

42:21

industry. And in a certain degree,

42:23

it can be, but if they

42:26

don't know what species are underwater,

42:28

which is very difficult to tell,

42:30

then it's difficult to manage that.

42:32

you know rather precipice of being

42:35

able to deploy these you know

42:37

on buoy systems on these on

42:39

these fads and just being like

42:41

okay we've actually been able to

42:44

protect certain species at certain times

42:46

of the year at certain you

42:48

know when they're when they're maybe

42:51

a little bit lower and then

42:53

we can focus in on other

42:55

species and that that just brings

42:57

fisheries management to a different level

43:00

but it also brings fishing to

43:02

a different level they don't have

43:04

to just be indiscriminate. They could

43:07

discriminate on the types of species

43:09

that they can they can capture.

43:11

That's awesome. That's phenomenal. What a

43:13

win. What a great win. How

43:16

does that, like when you see

43:18

that, like how did that whole

43:20

idea come together? Like was that

43:22

a number of you at ISF?

43:25

Was that somebody, like one of

43:27

your partners working on that like,

43:29

where did the idea come from?

43:32

Well, the idea came from an

43:34

old project when I was doing

43:36

my PhD. Yeah. to study tuna

43:38

behavior. I was using icosounders with

43:41

IRD. It's a Francisco. Okay. And

43:43

we were using different frequencies and

43:45

some French acousticians already were working

43:48

on the idea of this discrimination.

43:50

Yeah. From an IRD. And so

43:52

I continue after my PhD on

43:54

this line. It has been a

43:57

lot of work because we knew

43:59

nothing about the acoustic signal of

44:01

tropical tuners. So we started from

44:03

almost nothing. We had to spend

44:06

a lot of time at sea

44:08

and taking sampling, having data and

44:10

working a lot. And especially these

44:13

last years, we've been working with

44:15

Asti, which is the Spanish Institute

44:17

of Research. And the acousticians there

44:19

are working on this with ISSF.

44:22

That is phenomenal. That is so

44:24

cool. And Andrew, you know, it's

44:26

not just fishing selectively, but scientists,

44:28

we are very interested in having

44:31

this data for research. Because imagine,

44:33

if you have all the data

44:35

from the fat and the numbers

44:38

of species and individuals behind the

44:40

fat, you can understand many different

44:42

things about these irrigating devices and

44:44

even define new measures. Well, it's

44:47

all, not just, but you just

44:49

learn more about the ocean in

44:51

general. You have all these, like,

44:54

these fads deployed around the world.

44:56

I know what they're for, you

44:58

know, they're for to extract fish,

45:00

but it's also, as you put

45:03

more and more data systems on

45:05

there, you have this network of,

45:07

of data acquisition, from an oceanography

45:09

standpoint, that's, that's, that's amazing. Especially

45:12

in like, like, like, areas where

45:14

it's, I assume that a lot

45:16

of these are in the high

45:19

seas and you're just like we

45:21

don't know much about the high

45:23

seas to have this data acquisition

45:25

there and to have that relationship

45:28

with fishers that's what it really

45:30

comes down to to say hey

45:32

like can we actually access some

45:34

of that data so we can

45:37

understand it better and I think

45:39

that really goes towards building that

45:41

relationship with the fishing fleet because

45:44

that could have just been proprietary

45:46

information now they're sharing it you

45:48

can make these assumptions and hypotheses

45:50

and test them and experiment with

45:53

them and just be like, okay,

45:55

like now we can figure out

45:57

that there's different frequencies for swim

46:00

bladders and some fish don't have

46:02

them so that we can be

46:04

able to tell between species and

46:06

make it better for conservation purposes.

46:09

which is a win-win for everybody

46:11

in you know from the fishing

46:13

fleet to the scientists to to

46:15

the world I mean I think

46:18

that's that's that's really great I

46:20

love that I'm so glad you

46:22

told me about that project I

46:25

think that's great question I should

46:27

ask about that though is is

46:29

that when you work with different

46:31

fleets around the world are are

46:34

they all trying to like are

46:36

they all trying to like be

46:38

more conservation friendly? Like do they

46:40

want to be more conservation friendly?

46:43

Do they want to work with

46:45

this type of data that you

46:47

have and try and experiment? Are

46:50

they open to that type of

46:52

thing? There is diversity on that.

46:54

Right. Some plates are really proactive.

46:56

Yeah. And they like and they

46:59

want and they and also the...

47:01

I mean, the seep owner, for

47:03

instance, a big company, if the

47:06

seep owners have a policy to

47:08

be sustainable, this is great and

47:10

it's easy. But then you have

47:12

other fleets that they don't believe

47:15

they need to improve. That's happening.

47:17

Yeah, of course. So, yeah. So

47:19

I think it takes time, but

47:21

it's improving. So it's a matter

47:24

of sharing with them. You see

47:26

this is a biodegradable fat and

47:28

it works as well as the

47:31

conventional fat and this fleet is

47:33

using it and it works. So

47:35

it takes more time with those

47:37

fleet. But the good thing is

47:40

that the place that are doing

47:42

well and are making a big

47:44

effort to improve sustainability with fat,

47:46

they push the others. They are

47:49

pushing the others because nobody wants

47:51

to fall behind. Right. True. And

47:53

so when Fisher see at sea,

47:56

oh look, they are using this,

47:58

we should move, then they ask.

48:00

start contacting us and sometimes it's

48:02

it's it's it's it's it's sometimes

48:05

takes longer it depends on the

48:07

fleet but again it goes towards

48:09

building the relationship with other fleets

48:12

and then those fleets are in

48:14

discussion with with each other as

48:16

well and that you know putting

48:18

them out of pressure being like

48:21

hey this actually works out well

48:23

and having that almost like reference

48:25

or referral from from one other

48:27

fleet to say no like the

48:30

ISF is really great they they

48:32

work really well and and and

48:34

they're here for us as well

48:37

as conservation conservation so I think

48:39

that that bodes well. Now one

48:41

of the things you know ISSF

48:43

and the work that you're doing

48:46

are sometimes like as we just

48:48

talked about is on the cusp

48:50

of you know you know new

48:53

technology and innovation and obviously you

48:55

know you share that with the

48:57

fleets and you share that with

48:59

with the fleets all over the

49:02

world but as a scientist you

49:04

you want to be able to

49:06

share that within the scientific community

49:08

as especially with early career scientists.

49:11

Do you ever teach? students as

49:13

well and share this with students

49:15

like this type of work and

49:18

and and and get them like

49:20

excited about the new technology that's

49:22

out? Yeah sure I mean not

49:24

now because I'm now focused on

49:27

research but before I was I

49:29

was teaching sometimes I gave masters

49:31

some things like this yeah and

49:33

working with young people yes Nice,

49:36

nice. And how do you how

49:38

do you find like when they

49:40

so you were actually like like

49:43

a like on a committees for

49:45

graduate students? So if they did,

49:47

I don't know how it's done

49:49

in the in Europe when they

49:52

when you do your graduate work,

49:54

but do you defend your your

49:56

thesis at the end? Is that?

49:59

Yes. So you have a committee

50:01

and so you're on the committees?

50:03

Yeah, we are. always and being

50:05

in juries many times and we

50:08

continue writing, I mean, sciences are,

50:10

I mean, many times. I have

50:12

an invitation to be jury or

50:14

to be the mentor for a

50:17

work for a student. Yeah, we

50:19

are public, we are shared, we

50:21

share an important part of our

50:24

work is not just research about

50:26

communication with scientists, writing peer review

50:28

papers, attending conferences, giving conferences, giving

50:30

conferences, giving conferences, and so. We

50:33

try to do a little bit

50:35

of everything. Yeah, which is hard.

50:37

Takes a lot of time. Yeah.

50:39

For instance now, next month I

50:42

visit in China. Oh, nice. And

50:44

I will visit, when I have

50:46

a workshop on biodegradable fats together

50:49

with the Pacific community, which is

50:51

the science provider for the WCPFC.

50:53

We have, in that trip, we

50:55

are going to do everything. I

50:58

mean, we are going to do

51:00

a workshop with fissures, with manufacturers

51:02

to teach them how to do

51:05

a bio-degradable fat, what tuna reformation

51:07

are requiring, the need for fleets,

51:09

what is working, what is everything

51:11

with these companies. then we are

51:14

going to look for organic materials

51:16

in China so that they can

51:18

supply the fleets in the Western

51:20

Pacific and then we are visiting

51:23

the university in Shanghai for lecture.

51:25

So it's like we have everything

51:27

there. That's amazing to be able

51:30

to provide that almost services and

51:32

to be able to share that

51:34

information across. different you know scientists

51:36

the public and and so forth

51:39

i think that's that's really great

51:41

and for you to to come

51:43

on here and then spend your

51:45

time you know busy time with

51:48

us and and and be able

51:50

to share the research that you

51:52

have with us and the work

51:55

that you do is really amazing.

51:57

So, Gala, I just want to

51:59

thank you so much for coming

52:01

on to how to protect the

52:04

ocean podcast. It's been such a

52:06

pleasure to have you on. Love

52:08

to have you back on and

52:11

talk more about the research that

52:13

you're doing and dive deeper into it.

52:15

Okay, thank you for having me. Thank you

52:17

Gallo for joining us on today's episode of

52:19

the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. It

52:22

was great to have you. I love being

52:24

able to have people on that are able

52:26

to explain a lot of the things that

52:28

we may or may not know that goes

52:31

on in the fishing industry. This really is

52:33

important to learning more about the ocean and

52:35

being more aware of how things are caught

52:37

and what is good and what is bad

52:40

from a perception of from a consumer, right?

52:42

I want to know that when I go

52:44

to a to go by If I go

52:46

buy like a tuna pokey bowl,

52:48

go to Hawaii in a few

52:51

weeks and I want to make

52:53

sure that, you know, I get

52:55

the right pokey bowl. I want

52:57

to make sure that I'm catching

52:59

something that's sustainably caught, if it

53:01

is sustainably caught. And that's the

53:04

decision that we have to make.

53:06

But the only way we can

53:08

make that decision is based on

53:10

data and based on science. And

53:12

that's what the International Seafood Sustainability

53:14

Foundation does. I really appreciate Galla

53:16

coming on. We're going to put all

53:19

the links to the ISSF on here

53:21

in the show notes and you can

53:23

be able to access that. And if

53:25

you have any questions or comments or

53:27

concerns about this episode, please feel free

53:29

to contact me at how to protect

53:31

me at how to protect the ocean

53:33

on Instagram. Just DM me at how

53:35

to protect the ocean. And of course,

53:37

you can subscribe and hit that notification

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bell if you're watching this on YouTube

53:41

or if you prefer to watch this

53:43

on YouTube as well. your other favorite

53:45

appway podcast or your favorite podcast apps. We're

53:47

everywhere. So I want thank you so much for

53:49

joining me on today's episode of the How to

53:52

Protect the Ocean podcast and thank you all as

53:54

well. I'm your host Andrew Lewin. Thank you so

53:56

much for joining us. Have a great day. We'll

53:58

talk to you next time and happy. conservation.